Request for Advice on 6-7mm calibres.

[oldsoak]

Yours truly is thinking of getting a rifle in the 6-7mm range. The requirements are

1 - A calibre that isnt so wildcat that the brass can only be rolled on the thighs of dusky maidens. ditto the lead - its got to be commercially avialable in FMJ or Match. Must be reloadable without too mutch fancy forming.

2 - not too much kick at the butt end. I'm trying to get Mrs Oldsoak onboard, and something that kicks like a mule will kill domestic approval. Must be reasonably light even with a varmint type barrel. No wandering zeros after 10 shots thanks.

3 - not something that will cost more than my other arm and leg

4 - rifle has to be COTS - so I can pick it up cheaper secondhand. Hey - theres a recession on.

5 - Cheap optics - this is a FUN gun, not a palma match job and lets not scare the budget too much or it will never happen !

6 - Can be used as a hunting rifle. for this it must be able to go over 2500fps and 1750 ft-lbs with a 100grain bullet. This is NOT a must have. The wife still thinks Bambi is real.

I'm toying with a Remy .260 as it uses a .308 case - which would enable me to add a 7-08 or .308 later without too much change to the re-loading gear.

Any ideas folks ?

[Jippo]

6.5 Swedish mauser?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5x55mm

Quite popular in Northern Europe, and can be used on elk too.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Yours truly is thinking of getting a rifle in the 6-7mm range. The requirements are

1 - A calibre that isnt so wildcat that the brass can only be rolled on the thighs of dusky maidens. ditto the lead - its got to be commercially avialable in FMJ or Match. Must be reloadable without too mutch fancy forming.

2 - not too much kick at the butt end. I'm trying to get Mrs Oldsoak onboard, and something that kicks like a mule will kill domestic approval. Must be reasonably light even with a varmint type barrel. No wandering zeros after 10 shots thanks.

3 - not something that will cost more than my other arm and leg

4 - rifle has to be COTS - so I can pick it up cheaper secondhand. Hey - theres a recession on.

5 - Cheap optics - this is a FUN gun, not a palma match job and lets not scare the budget too much or it will never happen !

6 - Can be used as a hunting rifle. for this it must be able to go over 2500fps and 1750 ft-lbs with a 100grain bullet. This is NOT a must have. The wife still thinks Bambi is real.

I'm toying with a Remy .260 as it uses a .308 case - which would enable me to add a 7-08 or .308 later without too much change to the re-loading gear.

Any ideas folks ?

Speaking as a long-term and very experienced British-based (i.e. with experience of the idiosyncrasies of UK forearms legislation), your criteria are perhaps somewhat contradictory.

There is no such thing as cheap optics where rifles are concerned, cheap basically equates to poor accuracy and reliability.

.260 Remington is an odd choice especially in the UK, in over 30 years of both target shooting and deer stalking, I've only seen maybe half a dozen rifles in this calibre. .243 Win would be a much better option in terms of availability of rifles, ammunition, and reloading components/equipment.

Opting for a .243 would give you a huge choice of rifles and ammunition as it is possibly the most popular full bore calibre here in the UK. Another option I would look at seriously is 6.5x55mm which is an incredibly versatile calibre, but not nearly so widely available in the UK. My personal choice would be 6.5x55mm or as in my case .308Win (7.62x51mm), but .308 might be a bit hefty for Mrs Oldsoak, but Mrs DW manages mine, but prefers her own .222Rem.

As a matter of interest, do you already have a Firearm Certificate, are you a member of a rifle club, have you passed any level of the National Stalker's Certificate of Competence, do you have access to any land for deer stalking? The reason I ask these questions is that unless you are a club member and/or have ground on which you have permission to shoot/own the shooting rights, you may find the issue of a Firearm Certificate very difficult, plus whilst not mandatory many police forces are very reluctant to issue an FAC if unless the applicant is a holder of at least DSC pt.1.

Feel free to PM me if you need any advice.

[Hollis]

I have a .243, it is a good round and available (one of my varminters). As mentioned the 6.5 Swede is another venerable round.

[California Joe]

I have a .243 also. Great round in my opinion.

The first thing I thought of when I saw the thread title, like DW and Hollis, was the 6.5x55mm.

I've spoken with DW about optics before. Americans, it seems, would rather put a 200 dollar scope on a 2000 dollar rifle, whereas it seems to be the opposite over there. I have no idea why that mindset exists but judging by most of the posts on here from people suggesting types of scopes it is true.

[Hollis]

i've spoken with dw about optics before. Americans, it seems, would rather put a 200 dollar scope on a 2000 dollar rifle, whereas it seems to be the opposite over there. I have no idea why that mindset exists but judging by most of the posts on here from people suggesting types of scopes it is true.


qft................

[DeltaWhisky58]

CJ is talking huge sense here. It's quite common over here to see S&B, Zeiss & Swarovski scopes on budget rifles, because let's face it very few modern bolt action rifles are actually inaccurate, some are just better than others.

At one time, cheap Japanese scopes were considered the budget option here, but now they are pretty rare. I know Americans tend to be loyal to the domestic product, but in reality few US-made scopes other than those at the very top end of the scale are even remotely in the same league as those from Germany & Austria. I'm not saying this to knock US optics, far from it, German or Austrian scopes are the best - fact.

I'll argue the toss on most topics given half a chance, especially with something MP.Net has plenty of, i.e. bull****ters, and especially on the topic of firearms, but when it comes to hunting rifles and scopes I know what I'm talking about, and what CJ says above is the best philosophy, i.e. work out your total budget for scope, mounts and rifle, buy the scope and mounts and then buy the rifle with what's left. I really have seen $200 scopes on $2000 rifles, but you only see them once, next time you see the rifle it's got a decent European optic on it.

Unless you are going to be doing close range shooting, there is really no great need to buy a variable scope for most hunting. For shots out to 200m which covers most options, especially for the average shooter, a fixed power x6 scope will do you nicely, plus a fixed power scope has less to go wrong, fewer places for moisture to get in and is much stronger.

[Hollis]

I think part of the reason is the gun culture in the US. Many people own more than one firearm and then there are people who own firearms that if they lived in another country they might not. It might be that the percentage of enthusiasts in the UK in the gun owner crowd is much higher than in the states. For recreational owners, going for the looks or collectors of cool stuff the firearm is of primary importance and the scope secondary. There are owners who are just gun poor. I notice scopes, for what ever reasons, just don't have the resale value or trade value that they should have. Sort of like all scopes are the same.

Among those I know who are enthusiasts they tend to match the scope with the rifles capabilities along with their shooting abilities. Much the same that reloaders makes up a small percentage of firearm owners in the states.

[DeltaWhisky58]

That's an interesting perspective Hollis, and one I hadn't considered. From personal experience over here, one always gets better resale value by splitting a scope/rifle combination and selling them separately.

The gulf between what's left of the UK gun culture and that is the US is so massive that there is little comparison in reality. Perhaps people here tend to spend a lot of money on one rifle/scope because under typical circumstances most people are seldom allowed to possess many rifles as every one has to be justified.

[Hollis]

From another thread:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=4056233&postcount=42

In the US for every 100 Citizens there are 90 firearms

In the UK for every 100 Citizens there are 5.6 firearms.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Interesting figures. I'm sure things would be totally different in the UK if the law allowed it.

What I would be interested in however is what proportion of US citizens legally own firearms, and of those firearm owners, how many firearms per person they own - of course I know that nobody actually knows this figure for the US, whereas for the UK it can be given exactly.

[oldsoak]

I've got a ticket and membership of a rifle club as well as membership of the UK NRA.
I have not done any courses in the UK, and to be honest, I'm not sure I could afford deer stalking in the UK just now - it seems a frightful lot of hassle compared with NZ where getting access to hunting is a lot easier.
I've actually got a 6.5x55 in NZ - and I keep it there to save going through customs and also some carriers eg Virgin wont take firearms. An ex swedish M96, its very nice in the shoulder, albeit stiff, and because commercial loads are a bit shorter than the military loads, it can mis-feed if cycled quickly. I like the calibre, but I was the only one in my circle of friends who used it. They all used .270's,.308's or something based on the .30-06 cartridge. I have thought of getting another 6.5x55 here, and I'm very tempted. While its easy to get a varmint barrel on .308 based actions, only the M96's seem to have any thing like a heavy barrel, and the last few I've looked at were'nt much cop regards bores.
As regards optics - I take DW58's point, it just that trying to convince the missus that £500 quid for a S&B tele will take some doing - even a 4x32 Meopta is in the £300 bracket.
A .243 sounds good - anyone got an experience of it at range ( say 500m ) ?

[California Joe]

.243 is a very popular whitetail round up here in Vermont. Some people may scoff at that as not being powerful enough to take down a 200+ pound deer but most shots are taken 100 yards or less and from what I've seen it's very effective. I'm not sure of the ballistics of long range shots with the cartridge. I've never shot it longer than say 200 yards.

To give you some idea of the hunting distances here, more deer have probably been taken by iron sighted, lever action 30-30s than any other cartridge....

[Hollis]

I have a .243 Win/6mm Varmint rifle. When I built it, it was too shoot 300 - 500 Meters. Been a while so I am trying to remember the stats. I should probably keep my targets. I generally only keep reloading information. It was for smaller game. I was sub minute, maybe .75 with the 90 grain bullet.

As CJ mentioned it is great round for deer. Mine is pretty heavy for hauling around the woods. I have seen some really nice carry pieces.

[oldsoak]

The chances of it being used for deer hunting by me are fairly remote just now, but that might change later on - which is why I want something I can use for fun on the ranges without too much expense but that can be used to legally take deer later should the opportunity arise.


@Hollis
.75 moa at 100m is fantasy territory for me - eveyone will know I'm lying if I claimed that ! :lol:
I might get that at 10m clamped in a vise ( not me, I meant the gun )

[DeltaWhisky58]

Although I use .308 for most of my shooting, I have owned .243 rifles continuously for around 25 years. It's more than adequate for anything in the UK and is a very accurate calibre given a good barrel and ammo. Having a relatively light bullet (normally 70-100grs) it is susceptible to wind more than some, but it'll perform fine out to 500m.

In all honesty I'd prefer .308Win or 6.5x55mm given the choice because of the wider range of bullet weights and better down-range ballistics. Yes, both kick a bit more than the .243, but much of this can be alleviated by stock design and a decent recoil pad. I prefer heavier rifles, and with my Sauer 200, with medium weight barrel, custom stock and 8x56 S&B scope, recoil is negligible. I also have a .243 barrel for the same rifle and have toyed with getting another barrel in 6.5x55mm - I actually prefer shooting the .308 barrel over the .243 one. BTW with either barrel, this rifle is capable of ¼MOA with my handloads and has proven this in the past - the trouble is the fat bastard behind the rifle.

Another factor to consider is ammunition - Factory/hand loads - bullet weight, my normal load in .308Win is 45.5grs of *** powder with a 150gr Nosler bullet, and .243 is 34.0grs of *** powder with 100gr Nosler bullet. I'm happy to share this load data with you if you're interested, along with loads I worked up for 6.5x55mm with 120gr and 140gr bullets about fifteen years ago.

[oldsoak]

Thats very kind of you - I may yet hold you to that ! :-)