L.A. Officer Feared Man Beaten Was Armed

[Seraphim]

Does anyone have the video...? If he was resisting arrest that is what he is trained to do to get control of the suspect.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040626/capt.la11306260055.police_beating_la113.jpg

Attorney Mark Werksman demonstrates Friday, June 25, 2004, in Compton, Calif., how his client, Stanley Miller, was grabbed by Los Angeles police officers during Miller's arrest earlier this week. The incident was captured by television news cameras in a helicopter showing the police striking him several times with a flashlight while he was on ground. (AP Photo/Nick Ut)




LOS ANGELES - A police officer caught on videotape pummeling a suspected car thief with a flashlight said he delivered the blows because another officer warned that the man was carrying a gun, the Los Angeles Times reported Saturday.



John J. Hatfield told investigators that another officer attempting to handcuff 36-year-old Stanley Miller after a car chase Wednesday felt a metal object in Miller's pants, the newspaper said, citing anonymous sources.


Hatfield tried to subdue Miller by kicking him and striking him 11 times with a metal flashlight. The object mistaken for a gun was later revealed to be wire cutters in Miller's right front pants pocket.


Hatfield's account was corroborated by two other officers at the scene, the Times reported. Officers were also concerned that Miller may have been concealing a weapon in his left hand, but they later learned he was clenching money.


A defense lawyer was unsure whether Miller had wire cutters but said the beating was unjustified.


"It's a Keystone Kops response to scream, 'gun,' and pound a guy 11 times with a flashlight when he's already pinned to the ground and then say, 'Oops, guess it was a pair of wire cutters,'" attorney Mark Werksman said.


On Friday, prosecutors declined to file charges against Miller because there were questions about whether the arresting officers would be able to testify against the suspect. But prosecutors did not rule out possible charges in the future.


The treatment of Miller, a black man, has drawn comparisons with the Rodney King beating in 1991 and sparked criticism by city leaders.


"I'm demanding an explanation," Mayor James K. Hahn said at a City Hall news conference Friday. "It better be a good one. It looks to me that force was unwarranted."


Dozens of activists voiced outrage over the incident at a rally Friday in downtown Los Angeles. Many protesters carried flashlights like the one Hatfield used to strike Miller.


Hatfield, who is Hispanic, and two other officers involved in Miller's arrest will be investigated for excessive use of force. Eight officers have been placed on desk duty as the FBI (news - web sites) and the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department investigate. The LAPD (news - web sites) also has started an internal probe.


Miller, 36, remained jailed on a parole violation, his attorney said.


Miller's lawyer argued that he should be released so he can receive medical treatment for any injuries suffered during the beating.


Police previously characterized Miller's injuries as a "very minor abrasion" on his face. Sgt. Catherine Plows said Friday he was given a complete medical examination after his arrest.


Miller was released from prison in February. He has a criminal record dating back to 1994 that includes car theft, forgery and attempting to escape, records show. One probation report described him as a longtime crack cocaine user.

[Kriz]

I saw the video, he surely wasn't resisting arrest. He was allready laying on the ground but the still beat the sh*t out of him.

[mobster]

He got what he deserved, you run from the cops, you get a beatdown.
It should be mandatory. I can't find the part of where I feel sorry for criminals.

[American Patriot]

You got knocked the **** out!

[Macs.]

He got what he deserved, you run from the cops, you get a beatdown.
It should be mandatory. I can't find the part of where I feel sorry for criminals.

But thats wrong.

The judge/courts make the judgements/punishments, not the police.

[SpazzMunky]

He got what he deserved, you run from the cops, you get a beatdown.
It should be mandatory. I can't find the part of where I feel sorry for criminals.
He surrendered to them.....

[Seraphim]

He got what he deserved, you run from the cops, you get a beatdown.
It should be mandatory. I can't find the part of where I feel sorry for criminals.

LoL coming from a guy named Mobster...classic.

[ronin2172]

He got what he deserved, you run from the cops, you get a beatdown.
It should be mandatory. I can't find the part of where I feel sorry for criminals.
u r an idiot :cantbeli:

[ronin2172]

edit:double post...although u r still an idiot

[Red]

He got what he deserved, you run from the cops, you get a beatdown.
It should be mandatory. I can't find the part of where I feel sorry for criminals.
Are you sure he did?i wonder how you would feel if it were you?

[Laconian]

I've seen the video. Its from a helicopter a couple of hundred feet in the air. I saw officers around a guy on the ground. I saw an officer strike a guy with his flashlight. I CANNOT see the subject's hands, I CANNOT see if he is struggling to get free or if he is complying. I did not see any of the officers going for their cuffs, so it looks like the subject could still be resisting. I wasn't there, so I won't criticize their actions. But there is no nice way to hit somebody, & law enforcement is a full-contact job.

You can't handcuff somebody when they are fighting or resisiting. And you certainly can't make a decision on Reasonable or Excessive Force from that video. There's only one angle from too far away.

As for deserving a beat down, that's bullsh*t. LEO's have the statutory authority to use force to serve warrants, make arrests & preserve the peace. They also have the responsibility to use the amount of force necessary to support the law enforcement function. The bad guy decides the level of resistance/aggression; the LEO applies an acceptable level of control. That's it. There is no room for force to be applied in a gratuitous, sadistic or malicious manner. To do so is a violation of the badge, your oath and the law.

[Red]

I've seen the video. Its from a helicopter a couple of hundred feet in the air. I saw officers around a guy on the ground. I saw an officer strike a guy with his flashlight. I CANNOT see the subject's hands, I CANNOT see if he is struggling to get free or if he is complying. I did not see any of the officers going for their cuffs, so it looks like the subject could still be resisting. I wasn't there, so I won't criticize their actions. But there is no nice way to hit somebody, & law enforcement is a full-contact job.

You can't handcuff somebody when they are fighting or resisiting. And you certainly can't make a decision on Reasonable or Excessive Force from that video. There's only one angle from too far away.

As for deserving a beat down, that's bullsh*t. LEO's have the statutory authority to use force to serve warrants, make arrests & preserve the peace. They also have the responsibility to use the amount of force necessary to support the law enforcement function. The bad guy decides the level of resistance/aggression; the LEO applies an acceptable level of control. That's it. There is no room for force to be applied in a gratuitous, sadistic or malicious manner. To do so is a violation of the badge, your oath and the law.
And there have been quite a few who have violated that oath and the badge as well.Let me say this LEO do a good job but to say that they are above doing wrong things is plain silly.They are humans and like all humans they make mistakes.

[Laconian]

I am not suggesting some in LE have not violated the law their oaths or their office. When they do they need to be dealt with. My remark went to the statement that the guy deserved a beating just for running from the police. That rarely occurs in real life but happens in every cop show on the tube every episode so many folks believe it to be true...

[mattnwnc03]

what i seen was the suspect raised his hands to show he was giving up, the first cop threw him on the ground, then officer eddie guerrero jumped from the top rope on his a$$.started swingin like paul bunyon.no police were in trouble,the chase was dead as far as im concerned. :bash:

[FallenAngel]

what i seen was the suspect raised his hands to show he was giving up, the first cop threw him on the ground, then officer eddie guerrero jumped from the top rope on his a$$.started swingin like paul bunyon.no police were in trouble,the chase was dead as far as im concerned. :bash:

Its common procedure for the cops to order a felony suspect to the ****e position with his hands out to the side. Police then approach and put their knee (usually) between the shoulderblades or back of the neck to prevent the suspect from rolling over, getting up, etc.

If a suspect does not do this, as this one did not, then the police can assume the suspect is non-cooperative and thus "resisting" arrest (as if a half hour car chase and foot pursuit wasn't enough resistance).

This man had not assumed the ****e position as would be ordered by officers. Once the man was forced to the ground he refused to give his hands to the officers. If you read the article, they suspected the wire-cutters in his pocket to be a hand-gun. In a situation like that, he's lucky that all he got was a beating. People have been shot by the cops (lawfully) for less.

Until the suspect is handcuffed and searched, the police can assume they are being threatened for the very reason that they do not know- using this example- whether or not an object is a weapon or wire-cutters. These officers did exactly what they were trained to do and IMHO, after working for a police department, they showed some pretty good restraint given the circumstances.

[mobster]

Very well explained Laconain.
However,
Both my parents were cops. My brother is a cop, my two uncles were Cops. When you take down a "suspect" you must use force when he/she decides to exempt you from becoming a captor of him. If and when that happens you MUST use whatever force possible to protect yourself and other officers from harm. REMEMBER, they just want to get away and get high, or kill again. I was unable to become an officer or join the military due to my bad back.
But I can attest that the use of force is necessary as I've personally seen it over and over again, WHEN PEOPLE RUN FROM COPS, THEY ARE USAULLY GUILTY AND WILL DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO REMAIN FREE, ONLY TO COMMIT THE SAME CRIME(S) AS DONE BEFORE.
You are obviously an intelligent person and have very valid opinions, but I've been there. I understand you have a GOVT job, and I commend you on that, but c'mon. There needs to be a line drawn, yes it's maybe unfair but would you rather a rapist get smacked around a little, or have your niece or daughter get raped because a cop tapped a little sense in an animal. He ran, he got caught, he got hit, he's in jail, he also has a rap sheet longer than my arm. I feel safer.
By the way, I want to thank every future and current soldier in every armed forces for fighting a war which has to be fought. I really do love you. Believe it or not, Poland, Isreal, Russia, USA, Italy, UK, Australia, We/I thank you. Mobbie.
Also. FALLENANGEL. Very fine points my friend.

[Laconian]

When a subject forces an officer to use force by offering some form of resistance (verbal or physical) the officer can/must respond with the APPROPRIATE level of force (the courts use the standard of objective reasonableness) to get the job done. They must do so without hesitation. Unfortunately, most of the officers killed/wounded in the line of duty have a history of using too little force to control a situation. I go to put the habeaus grabbus on somebody and they resist and the appropriate level of control is a strike, then I hit as hard as I can, as many times as necessary to get compliance. When they comply the fight's over. Anything more is outside the scope of the job & you are open criminal & civil liability & admin discipline from you agency.

I've been there, too. I humped zone calls for 7 years before I took my gov't job & was a street agt working violent crime for another 7 before becoming a full-time Use of Force trainer. I've made bunches of felony arrests where force was needed to gain compliance. By using the right amount of force qucikly & w/o hesitation or malice, I've never had a sustained excessive force complaint. I've even had suspect's apologize to me after I laid them out for fighting with me & my back-ups.

[chauncy republicans]

what i seen was the suspect raised his hands to show he was giving up, the first cop threw him on the ground, then officer eddie guerrero jumped from the top rope on his a$$.started swingin like paul bunyon.no police were in trouble,the chase was dead as far as im concerned. :bash:
Thats how I saw it too.

[ronin2172]

i'm sorry but none of this reasoning excuses beating a man 11 times with a freakin' maglite....

[100_Percent_HOOAH]

Even if he was resisting (which I did not look like to me), he was outnumbered big time, there was no reason to bash him repeatedly with a flash light. I personally think an officer got hot headed and took things to far. I was not there, but thats what I gathered from seeing the video 10,000 times on tv.

[ostap]

****ING PIGS

I ****ING KILL THEIR WIVES, AND DAUGHTERS, ANND CUT THEIR NUTS OFF

****ING FAGGOTS

[Ratamacue]

f*** PIGS

I f*** KILL THEIR WIVES, AND DAUGHTERS, ANND CUT THEIR NUTS OFF

f*** FAGGOTS
Nice first post.

[chauncy republicans]

f*** PIGS

I f*** KILL THEIR WIVES, AND DAUGHTERS, ANND CUT THEIR NUTS OFF

f*** FAGGOTS
Nice first post.
It was even better than mine... p-)

[ronin2172]

f*** PIGS

I f*** KILL THEIR WIVES, AND DAUGHTERS, ANND CUT THEIR NUTS OFF

f*** FAGGOTS
man i thought i had seen it all on this forum..... :cantbeli:

[Seraphim]

Hes already been banned.

[ronin2172]

that has to be some sort of record!lol

[chauncy republicans]

Hes already been banned.
LMFAO!!

[Red]

When a subject forces an officer to use force by offering some form of resistance (verbal or physical) the officer can/must respond with the APPROPRIATE level of force (the courts use the standard of objective reasonableness) to get the job done. They must do so without hesitation. Unfortunately, most of the officers killed/wounded in the line of duty have a history of using too little force to control a situation. I go to put the habeaus grabbus on somebody and they resist and the appropriate level of control is a strike, then I hit as hard as I can, as many times as necessary to get compliance. When they comply the fight's over. Anything more is outside the scope of the job & you are open criminal & civil liability & admin discipline from you agency.

I've been there, too. I humped zone calls for 7 years before I took my gov't job & was a street agt working violent crime for another 7 before becoming a full-time Use of Force trainer. I've made bunches of felony arrests where force was needed to gain compliance. By using the right amount of force qucikly & w/o hesitation or malice, I've never had a sustained excessive force complaint. I've even had suspect's apologize to me after I laid them out for fighting with me & my back-ups.
All good and said but despite your high appraisal of the Police, they have a history and i will make up my mind when i hear the other side of the story.Just because you followed the rules dont mean that everyone else does that.I am not slighting the police,i think they have a tremendously difficult job.

[ronin2172]

yea this is not the first go around with the LAPD on this type of incident....I think an LAPD officer was caught punching the hell out of some kid who was handcuffed, just last year.
I'm not in any way anti police but i do hold them to a higher standard. They have a tough job no doubt but that does not excuse excessive force when it has been applied.

[Seraphim]

yea this is not the first go around with the LAPD on this type of incident....I think an LAPD officer was caught punching the hell out of some kid who was handcuffed, just last year.
I'm not in any way anti police but i do hold them to a higher standard. They have a tough job no doubt but that does not excuse excessive force when it has been applied.

I think your talking about the incident where the "kid" was handcuffed and spat on the officer and he slamed him on his trunk.

[ronin2172]

that might have been it...if the kid (or whatever) spat on him he was wrong; but the cop has to know slamming a persons head onto the hood of a car is not looked on favorably.

If people see cops behaving like that all the time the police have no right not to expect a **** storm when incidents like the topic of this thread hapens.

[FallenAngel]

yea this is not the first go around with the LAPD on this type of incident....I think an LAPD officer was caught punching the hell out of some kid who was handcuffed, just last year.
I'm not in any way anti police but i do hold them to a higher standard. They have a tough job no doubt but that does not excuse excessive force when it has been applied.

Was not LAPD....it was an LA County Sheriff's Deputy in the city of Compton (about as bad a ****-hole as it gets in LA County). The kid did not spit on him, he grabbed the deputy's nuts (assault on a peace-officer) and he (the deputy) slapped him upside the head to make him let go. That story blew over in a week because the black kid wanted to be a victim when he was just some no-account loser who got what he deserved.

[Seraphim]

yea this is not the first go around with the LAPD on this type of incident....I think an LAPD officer was caught punching the hell out of some kid who was handcuffed, just last year.
I'm not in any way anti police but i do hold them to a higher standard. They have a tough job no doubt but that does not excuse excessive force when it has been applied.

Was not LAPD....it was an LA County Sheriff's Deputy in the city of Compton (about as bad a ****-hole as it gets in LA County). The kid did not spit on him, he grabbed the deputy's nuts (assault on a peace-officer) and he (the deputy) slapped him upside the head to make him let go. That story blew over in a week because the black kid wanted to be a victim when he was just some no-account loser who got what he deserved.

Two different incidents.

[Laconian]

Huh! Imagine that...a video (LASO in Compton) where it looks like a cop is using excessive force, but when you find out ALL the facts its not quite like you thought. If you do not have all the facts that the officer has at the time of the incident, if you can't see eveything that he sees, or hear what he hears don't be too quick to judge their actions. Unfortunately, the media will show some chase/capture video footage, but rarely follow up and report what happened in total.