Prague 1968

[saturnin]

I know it´s not August but I just cross over this youtube clips and didn´t want to post it in another thread (it would probably lead to end of it)

Note: I don´t wont to see any comments about Georgia here!!! :fork:

to get feeling of Prague occupation, 1968:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHiBd-WBdiY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuajbMlXJqo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-_S00jFhn0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWYBaLyISQI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtwuDvvNJ2E

mix with scenes from movie: The Unbearable Lightness of Being
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgsLoehgvPY

[AroundTheCorner]

great video's...............thank's for posting

[Wally1967]

^ Same

thanks for vids

[Mr.K]

Nice vids, it's sad that the things happened the way they happened.:|

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8097395595228365029

[saturnin]

interesting vehicle at 0:25 (IS 3 Hull, recovery tank?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H81POlaFJ9c

There are very few new scenes (1:42, fuel tanks are perforated to set on fire)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3TRrCcsnCo

note munition at 4:30 and 4:56
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75D8lgaTnj4&NR=1

[enforcer]

Praga 1968 - T-62 destroyed building....

[kremilek_a_vochomurka]

Praga 1968 - T-62 destroyed building....




that was in Liberec, not Praha.

[Mateusz]

Holy crap :(

Were people in this house ?

[Hast2]

Why the tanks have these white strips?

[Cezka]

I know it´s not August but I just cross over this youtube clips and didn´t want to post it in another thread (it would probably lead to end of it)

Note: I don´t wont to see any comments about Georgia here!!! :fork:





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtwuDvvNJ2E




What is the guy singin in russian? my russian is not so good, that i can all understand it ^^

Would be nice if someone could translate it.

[Hast2]

"Thank you, "brothers" occupants, we'll never forget, we'll never forget..."

[Cezka]

Holy crap :(

Were people in this house ?

2 People died, it was a polish tank,who crashed the house.

thx @ Hast 2

[Il-28]

Why the tanks have these white strips?

Fast recognition markings because Czechoslovakia had same or similar type of tanks.

[minimus]

Fast recognition markings because Czechoslovakia had same or similar type of tanks.

Russians like to mark their tanks this way. Was same in Berlin '45. IIRC Budapest as well.

[Mr.K]

Russians like to mark their tanks this way. Was same in Berlin '45. IIRC Budapest as well.


Allies used it in ww2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_stripes

I guess whoever invades, uses it.

[Cezka]

How died most of our people in prague and so on, by rushes from Russian Soldier or only Accidents and so on?
Where was our Czechoslovak Army, where there behind us or with the Occupation Army?

[minimus]

Where was our Czechoslovak Army, where there behind us or with the Occupation Army?

Stayed in their barracks. Hence relatively small blood shed.

[kremilek_a_vochomurka]

How died most of our people in prague and so on, by rushes from Russian Soldier or only Accidents and so on?
Where was our Czechoslovak Army, where there behind us or with the Occupation Army?

you can get some info here (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=83715&highlight=prague+spring)

[saturnin]

How died most of our people in prague and so on, by rushes from Russian Soldier or only Accidents and so on?
Where was our Czechoslovak Army, where there behind us or with the Occupation Army?

You can find detailed list with cause of death here:
http://www.ustrcr.cz/en/august-1968-victims-of-the-occupation

[Bachelor]

How died most of our people in prague and so on, by rushes from Russian Soldier or only Accidents and so on?
Where was our Czechoslovak Army, where there behind us or with the Occupation Army?

Czechoslovak Army had a rest as in 1939 that when Nazis occupied their Motherland.


Stayed in their barracks. Hence relatively small blood shed.

They hadn't blood in both cases...

[sup_tech]

Just fighting some insurgency fueled by in this case ex-Nazis sympathizers and no doubt organized by the Western intelligence services. Definitely not an eye opener - it happens in every forcefully occupied country sooner or later. And by the way, anyone typing "Russians" instead of "Soviets" is most likely a clinical moron.

[Bachelor]

Just fighting some insurgency fueled by in this case ex-Nazis sympathizers and no doubt organized by the Western intelligence services. Definitely not an eye opener - it happens in every forcefully occupied country sooner or later. And by the way, anyone typing "Russians" instead of "Soviets" is most likely a clinical moron.

Exactly...

[Mr.K]

Czechoslovak Army had a rest as in 1939 that when Nazis occupied their Motherland.



They hadn't blood in both cases...

Dude that flame is not necessary, hadn't the czechoslovak army stayed in and disobayed the order its would have been a bloodshed. For nothing.

[v-twin]

Just fighting some insurgency fueled by in this case ex-Nazis sympathizers and no doubt organized by the Western intelligence services. Definitely not an eye opener - it happens in every forcefully occupied country sooner or later. And by the way, anyone typing "Russians" instead of "Soviets" is most likely a clinical moron.

Yup. The Liberating Red Army once more at work. The same way it liberated Poland in '39 and the rest of Europe in '44/'45. Whether we wanted it or not.

[sup_tech]

Oh cry me a river. It's not like Poland has never occupied Russian territories. Right...
And Soviets hadn't liberated "the rest of Europe in '44/'45", in case you stroke dumb I'll remind you of American, British and French troops. And yes, I am well aware that Eastern Europeans didn't mind too much Nazi's occupation as long as they lived in the "United Europe" just like today.

[TakeIt]

Yup. The Liberating Red Army once more at work. The same way it liberated Poland in '39 and the rest of Europe in '44/'45. Whether we wanted it or not.
Congratulation, you wrote the most moronic post in this thread.

Enough with the trolling people.

http://inmotion.magnumphotos.com/essay/invasion

BTW, i like this song, anybody knew it?:

В тумане звезд уходит самолет
Обратно на приписанную базу,
А нас сюда солдатский долг зовет -
Десант на запад брошен по приказу.

А где-то между парашютных строп
Внизу горит огнями Братислава,
И медленно садятся на песок
Ребята из Москвы и Волгограда.

Когда рассвет убрал с порога ночь,
По улицам шагали наши парни.
И только крики: “Убирайтесь прочь!”–
Неслись из окон буржуазной псарни.

Все хорошо, и можно не смотреть
На то, что пишут гады на заборах.
Ах, если б можно было бы стереть
Колонной танков всю вот эту свору.

Из чехов бил по спинам автомат.
И кровь течет по синему берету.
По мостовой прошел свинцовый град,
И одного парнишки больше нету.

казалось бы чего осталось ждать
взять автомат гранату и в атаку
но отдан был приказ - не убивать
мы не фашисты, крови нам не надо

в тумане звезд уходит самолет
обратно на приписанную базу
а нас сюда содатский долг позвал
десант на запад сброшен по приказу

[Flamming_Python]

Oh cry me a river. It's not like Poland has never occupied Russian territories. Right...
And Soviets hadn't liberated "the rest of Europe in '44/'45", in case you stroke dumb I'll remind you of American, British and French troops. And yes, I am well aware that Eastern Europeans didn't mind too much Nazi's occupation as long as they lived in the "United Europe" just like today.

Yeah heh it's as if they wouldn't have minded being under the nazis for a few extra decades until the EU came along.


Yup. The Liberating Red Army once more at work. The same way it liberated Poland in '39 and the rest of Europe in '44/'45. Whether we wanted it or not.

This has nothing to do with Russians, Poles or Czechs. Those were simply the times. There was a workers rebellion in Novocherkassk, Russia in 1962 which was put down much the same way as what happened in Prague or Poznan.

[enforcer]

Russian TV documentary - Hot Summer 1968


[/URL]

(http://imageshack.us)

[URL=http://imageshack.us]


Format:AVI / SATRip
Video: 696x466 (1.49:1), 25 fps, XviD build 47 ~962 kbps avg, 0.12 bit/pixel
Audio: 48 kHz, MPEG Layer 3, 2 ch, ~128.00 kbps avg
Size: 307.02 Mb




http://rapidshare.com/files/179930091/Gorachee_leto_1968_.part1.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/179930093/Gorachee_leto_1968_.part2.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/179935501/Gorachee_leto_1968_.part3.rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/179935504/Gorachee_leto_1968_.part4.rar
or
http://depositfiles.com/files/wd29vd2js
http://depositfiles.com/files/m9zdtib53
http://depositfiles.com/files/4repsqmq3
http://depositfiles.com/files/hteqb3czz

[Hast2]

Though this documentary tries somehow to justify SU(because it was necessary to do, to keep the balance between NATO and WP) it is good and unbiased.

[saturnin]

Dude that flame is not necessary, hadn't the czechoslovak army stayed in and disobayed the order its would have been a bloodshed. For nothing.

exactly, should have Czechoslavak army go for full conflict in middle of cold war against much stronger army of SSSR occupation forces (and others for that matter)?

Czechoslovak army was for you information lead by SSSR "consultant" by that time. They were alocated by border with Austria and west germany and in days before invasion they had taken care of any not fully trusted officer. There was plan for action against occupation, but was abandoned becouse occupation forces sized most larger cities in first five hours of occupation. We are not speaking of Afghanistan here, this was high populated country, urbanized - any conflict would lead to massacre! :fork:

[saturnin]

and for that matter regular people (or czechoslovak soldier) didn´t know what was going on that day, when they realized that this is not regular manouvres it´s was already over for any reasonable military reaction. :roll:

[HorrigEn]

similar discussion pretty much killed the old thread (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=83715&page=11). so lets keep this civil dudes.

[saturnin]

Though this documentary tries somehow to justify SU(because it was necessary to do, to keep the balance between NATO and WP) it is good and unbiased.

any documentary which wants to justify what my grandfather had to go through - how can it be unbiased????

yeah SSSR wanted Czechoslovak teritorry for military reason - look at it from this perspective - anything what would have helped to weaken them was good (except full war conventional or nuclear war ) at least if we agree that SSSR was "wrong/evil....."

my country had suffred becouse some idiots in Kremclin thought that their militry position is more important than freedom of people :bash:

[saturnin]

I want to keep it civil way.

Hope our Russian members will not troll around

[saturnin]

Just fighting some insurgency fueled by in this case ex-Nazis sympathizers and no doubt organized by the Western intelligence services. Definitely not an eye opener - it happens in every forcefully occupied country sooner or later. And by the way, anyone typing "Russians" instead of "Soviets" is most likely a clinical moron.

I hope somebody will remove this from thread, citizens of Czechoslovakia were never ex-Nazis sympathizers:bash:

[Hast2]

any documentary which wants to justify what my grandfather had to go through - how can it be unbiased????

yeah SSSR wanted Czechoslovak teritorry for military reason - look at it from this perspective - anything what would have helped to weaken them was good (except full war conventional or nuclear war ) at least if we agree that SSSR was "wrong/evil....."

my country had suffred becouse some idiots in Kremclin thought that their militry position is more important than freedom of people :bash:
Calm down :bash: I agree with you, i'm just saying this documentary is good to watch, you can actually learn the true story about august 1968 in ČSSR, because it(documentary) doesn't pick sides.

[saturnin]

Calm down :bash: I agree with you, i'm just saying this documentary is good to watch, you can actually learn the true story about august 1968 in ČSSR, because it(documentary) doesn't pick sides.

sorry it just put me on fire when somebody suggest (not you) that their is good justification for what happened :-)

[Mr.K]

sorry it just put me on fire when somebody suggest (not you) that their is good justification for what happened :-)
From a geoploitical and strategic point of view it was justified, there was a cold war going on.
The CZ army made the right decision of staying in baracks. And I doubt it was because they didn't know about what was going on and wanted to fight. It was to avoid a totally uncessary conflict which would have taken may czech and WP forces lives away.
Remember Dubcek didn't want to break off from the Eastern bloc and completely swich sides, he always was a socialist.
The WP forces did what they had to do, which wasn't killing and opress czechs, if that was the goal the death toll would have been much higher than 70 people.


Anyone has info about people that physically resisted the WP troops, especially armed resistance.

[saturnin]

From a geoploitical and strategic point of view it was justified, there was a cold war going on.
The CZ army made the right decision of staying in baracks. And I doubt it was because they didn't know about what was going on and wanted to fight. It was to avoid a totally uncessary conflict which would have taken may czech and WP forces lives away.
Remember Dubcek didn't want to break off from the Eastern bloc and completely swich sides, he always was a socialist.
The WP forces did what they had to do, which wasn't killing and opress czechs, if that was the goal the death toll would have been much higher than 70 people.


Anyone has info about people that physically resisted the WP troops, especially armed resistance.

as for czechoslovak soldiers didn´t know what was happening - they REALLY didn´t know until most part of Czechoslovakia was taken - remember than even soviet soldiers didn´t know that this is not manovreus as they were told.

I do know that Dubček was socialist and his intention wasn´t to break off

as for geopolitical and strategic reason - everybody who has interest in military history in connection to central europe can easly acknowledge importance of Czechoslovak territory for military purposes of SSSR. Still in my opinion it is not reason to justify fourty years of occupation

WP forces didn´t killed "so many" czechoslovak citizen - that wasn´t why this forces was there - reason was to create such condition in which everybody who didn´t want to stay under russian rule - could be "eliminated" - in 70´s that doesnt mean necessarily to murder - their are more way how to break people.....

[TakeIt]

remember than even soviet soldiers didn´t know that this is not manovreus as they were told. Myth N1


I do know that Dubček was socialist and his intention wasn´t to break off Myth N2


Still in my opinion it is not reason to justify fourty years of occupationIt is. And it was an opinion of people of far more importance and influence than our own combined. Of course that doesn't mean everybody had to agree with it.


reason was to create such condition in which everybody who didn´t want to stay under russian rule - could be "eliminated":cantbeli: Reason was to secure WP as a whole. There is so much information just lying out there to be read, i'm amazed at the amount of ignorance this topic provides. And not just on this forum.

[saturnin]

Anyone has info about people that physically resisted the WP troops, especially armed resistance.

first I came across - it was in czech langage I just put it throug google translator houpe you will understand at least some if it :-(

He writes on 21 August 1968. Could do a lot of heart and Hostýnské mountains was kindled well organized armed resistance against "brotherly international assistance". Its lead should stand boasting then Czechoslovak People's Army - 7th Elite parachute regiment of Holešov, directly managed by the administration of the General Staff intelligence. It is over early on the 22nd August issued a warrant Holešovská unit - to determine where the interned Alexander Dubcek, and prepare for the liberation!
These are the basic facts about the many difficult uvěřitelného story, which still covers a number of uncertainties and the fog of silence.

SEVENTH parachute regiment
The public may not in the Communist Czechoslovakia of the existence and mission of the 7th výsadkového regiment not known. "When I asked the levy, whether I would like to serve with mountain. Kývl I. They told me: go to the department in 7374 Holešov. I did not say it to me. What is our task, I learned to spot. But I had the silence or at home, I could not entrust, "remembers Albert Orlita who do Holešov enlisted in 1967. His words confirmed Director of the Military History Institute Aleš Knížek: "In its time, was the 7th regiment really elite paratroopers unit exercises primarily for close combat and diverse activities. Its members were very proud that it serves." The embryo was created in 1958 in Sabinov in the north of Slovakia, after the base moved further east, in Prešov. "While these locations meet the needs of confidentiality and training, but less for the management of the Prague's center," explains Jiri Hradil to 7th airborne regiment based. The Moravian Holešov regiment resided since 1961. Its main task was to search and destruction of weapons of mass destruction in tulle NATO, especially Sergeant and Pershing missiles. Further research and diverse activities in the enemy rear. Each group should operate at depths up to 500 kilometers in front. "Our task in the framework of the Warsaw Pact was to secure the so-called southern wing in the direction of Berlin-Paris," says Jiri Hradil. It is because of the destruction of strategic objectives was the 7th parachute regiment as a single military unit reporting directly controlled by the administration of the General Staff, whose operativci Holešov passed to fresh information about possible targets. For the 7th Czechoslovak paratroopers regiment zbrojovka develop an entirely new special equipment. The best known is the model 61 gun silencer, known worldwide as the Skorpion. It was but a new type of parachute, pancéřovka RPG 7, remote firing charges, guidance for the aircraft, maps printed on vodovzdorných materials, the means to neutralize the scent and stop until unprecedented issues. "Our unit was the first in its kind throughout the Warsaw Pact, "says former Chief of Staff George Dufek." We have developed our own specific way of training - from work in language classrooms, to special events on the ground. In the mid-sixties we visited East intelligence chief. He was shocked, what and how our boys training. "

MANAGEMENT STA TU Return BACK
August twenty-one hours of the morning woke the skipper 7th výsadkového regiment phone. "Colleagues of the intelligence the administration told me that we were covering our` allies, "recalls Vladimir Kósáné. One hour later vytočili reporting on the administration of the phone number to Holešov again. "We said that, we can not just stand by and watch. Sir, we therefore gave the order: to identify where the state leadership, and ensure the conditions for possible interference leading to the exemption, "describes the situation of the then Assistant Chief Intelligence Administration Jaroslav Vinkler. "First, we consider an attack on the Soviet Embassy in Prague, but at that time resembled a big strength. We had information that Dubcek is hidden somewhere in Poland. We wanted to relieve him, and then dropping a small airplane flying low above the ground transport to get here , "describes the plan George Dufek. Supervisory started and give room to circumvent the soldiers. "Now I was weird that circumvent the alarm without the traditional roar popláááách, poplááách," Albert Orlita tell. "Immediately after the beginning of our company commander with a stone face announced that the Soviet army at midnight crossing our borders . Albert Orlita used to saying to tivzdušné defense. The third and fourth hour heard the sound of turbo-propeller engines - the aircraft flew at low altitude of about three hundred meters. "In the next minutes, we counted about forty, were difficult to transport Soviet letounyAn-12 and An-22 heading to the airport in Brno," states. Even the morning shadow of the barracks could go twice and turn the truck back to the nearby warehouse muničního for Dobrotic brought sharp ammunition and explosives. "I remember how the morning silence, we have heard from a large range of Soviet tanks rumble strips running the cobbled road from Bystřice pod Hostýnem. It was a tank unit výsadkových that haste from Ostrava airport specifically to fill our barracks. In Holešov not astray, jely sure , "adds Orlita. One tank najel directly from the main gate. The commander called off the tanks to come into the barracks and the soldiers lay down their arms. This, however, the master Kósáné refused. Go stealthily from the barracks but it was impossible at this time. Paratroopers invented the ruse. For car and truck sent Soviet armored truck as it is expected to go immediately. Truck driver povodil him after winding streets and holešovských for some twenty minutes he returned. In the meantime, went from the barracks and the cars took to the direction of nearby Hostýnským vrchům.

PREPARATION for civil war
Today they are at the foot of the Hostýnské mountains visible remnants of the bunker, there holešovští paratroopers enough to build in the dramatic days of August. "First, we prepare patrols and began work on the shelters. It's slow, we used only field paddles, we mainly did the command post. I dont denny that some feared," describes the next event was a specialist engineer now living in nearby Kroměříž that the wished to remain anonymous. "We carry guns, sniper rifles, explosives and bazooka," describes the captain Jaroslav S., who was responsible for Tesák command. Nobody knew exactly what is happening, or what happens. But this was nothing extraordinary. The 7th výsadkového regiment to enter the learned always to just before entering the aircraft. "The order was: to hide," says Jaroslav P. Captain me torza hoe in the woods above the railway line between Holešov and Bystřicí under Hostýnem appeared in August 1998. Despite tens of years went three for sure. Around well visible even recess lay rotten remnants of camouflage nets. "We thought we could establish some sort of outbreak of resistance against the Soviet occupation," says Miroslav Šedina, which was the first commander of the 7th výsadkového Regiment and during the August crisis, he worked for the intelligence service. "The habitat was a very good perspective. In the hills, we were able to maintain long," says Captain P. Local holešovští paratroopers knew the terrain perfectly. From plan to exempt Alexander Dubček and initiate a guerrilla war finally came together. August brought the twenty-fourth clutch order to withdraw back to the barracks. At that time it was already known that Dubcek and his colleagues are forced to act in Moscow.

[saturnin]

Myth N1


ok, beter to say MOST of soviet soldiers didn´t know

say it so many people who stepped on sssr tanks and asked: what are you exactly doing here, in radio they say you are here to change our government? what does it mean?

Russian soldiers: we don´t know, we just get order to suize this square, town,....

when my dad stopped some soldiers on Gaz he asked how can you invide my country, why?

Russian soldier: don´t worry it´s just excercise
my dad: it´s not I just heard you taken radios by force
russian soldier: we don´t know are you sure about this?

[saturnin]

Myth N2



you suggest that Dubček intention was to bring ČSSR to NATO????

if so, I can´t help you. Either you get knowledge about this theme or do not post when you absolutelly have no clue what it was about

[Mateusz]

Dubcek just want 'socialism with a human face', a reform

Different to Hungary where they wanted totally to break off

[HorrigEn]

Saturnin, dont bother man. It really isnt worth all the nerves.
hes just an assclown with huge internet ego.

here re some galleries of this sad event which is also a start of unwanted foreign military presence in czechoslovakia for the next 30 years.
over 700 photos in total...

http://www.68.usd.cas.cz/cz/datsogallery/2.html

http://www.ustrcr.cz/cs/fotogalerie-srpen-1968-praha

[kremilek_a_vochomurka]

Saturnin, why did you make this thread of the same topic as THIS (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=83715&highlight=prague+spring) and make the chance to post some ****ing idiotic posts again?? Why to explain historical facts to ignoramus that never see some historical document and fail to understand any argumentation for ever?

[Mr.K]

Dubcek just want 'socialism with a human face', a reform

Different to Hungary where they wanted totally to break off

True, although I have the impression that the movement outgrown Dubcek, and the communist party of CSSR lost control of the reforms.
Mind you that 1968 was a year of student movements. Think France for example.

Saturnin : I will read your long post once I get home, thanks for the info.:)

[saturnin]

:cantbeli: Reason was to secure WP as a whole. There is so much information just lying out there to be read, i'm amazed at the amount of ignorance this topic provides. And not just on this forum.

I say that geopolitical and military needs OF SSSR is not enough/good/reasonable to justify occupation of Czechoslovakia

do you see my point: i do not deny that from WP military perspectives it was nice to keep Czechoslovakia at full dispozable for WP forces

my point is: WP (better to say SSSR) was not god enough reason for occupation of Czechoslovakia, I say then when somebody in Kremlin decide that something is good for him (his state) and when this is not god for another country - he has no legal right to push them against wall

[saturnin]

True, although I have the impression that the movement outgrown Dubcek, and the communist party of CSSR lost control of the reforms.
Mind you that 1968 was a year of student movements. Think France for example.

Saturnin : I will read your long post once I get home, thanks for the info.:)

I am sorry i have not so much time to go throug all this archives, sources act, to put you on right direction, but i can tell you that communist party lost contor over some aspect of live - but people of Czechoslovakia at that moment (before invasion) they thought that there is option for communist with human face (don´t ask me what i think about it p-)) and THEY DIDN´T GET CLOUSE TO ANY IDEA OF BREAKING OFF!!!!! (not that I would be proud of it)

you are right that in late 60´s there was strong student movements - but it was (generally) in the direction of socialisms!

until Czechoslovak occupation it was warking for soviets, just after that peoples in west countries get knowleadge what SSSR politics looks like.

Dubček didn´t loose control if you mean that before invasion there was any idea like: well from now our territory is not at dispozal to WP forces.

[saturnin]

Saturnin, why did you make this thread of the same topic as THIS (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=83715&highlight=prague+spring) and make the chance to post some ****ing idiotic posts again?? Why to explain historical facts to ignoramus that never see some historical document and fail to understand any argumentation for ever?

I know my mistake, when I created this thread I has forgotten that this topis is already here

I tried to keep this on military aspect (thats why in my second? post i tried to put some "military" comments to video - well too late)

+ one troll catch me on another thread, and then he came here....

[Kilgor]

Just fighting some insurgency fueled by in this case ex-Nazis sympathizers and no doubt organized by the Western intelligence services. Definitely not an eye opener - it happens in every forcefully occupied country sooner or later. And by the way, anyone typing "Russians" instead of "Soviets" is most likely a clinical moron.

Its brainwashed attitudes like this, should remind people regularly to be grateful the soviet union collapsed.

Pravada lives on....

[saturnin]

Saturnin, dont bother man. It really isnt worth all the nerves.
hes just an assclown with huge internet ego.

here re some galleries of this sad event which is also a start of unwanted foreign military presence in czechoslovakia for the next 30 years.
over 700 photos in total...

http://www.68.usd.cas.cz/cz/datsogallery/2.html

http://www.ustrcr.cz/cs/fotogalerie-srpen-1968-praha

thank you for this! :)

you are right, even best argument is not enough and i isn´t worth all the nerves

[Bachelor]

May be we create the Discussion thread?



My opinion.. In reality was.... Two ideologies and two Power have fight on the Czechoslovak's ground. It is NATO and the Warsaw Pact. It was Capitalism-imperialism and Communism. Both sides are guilty. Czechoslovakia was on an edge. It was Cold War time...

Don't speak about idiots in the Kremlin. You had the idiots in Prague in the government and lot of idiots who did provocations and some idiots who paid for provocations from the West.

August 1968... Czechoslovakia... Officers of Czechoslovak Army with Officers of Soviet Army...

[Bachelor]

Dude that flame is not necessary, hadn't the czechoslovak army stayed in and disobayed the order its would have been a bloodshed. For nothing.


I don't agree. All posts in thread. Men have questions and I have answer. It's reasonable. If some speak about aggression or occupation that arises a question about Native Army. For all army is obliged to protect the Motherland and the people of it country from aggression and occupation. Soldiers have the Oath of allegiance to protect the country and people.

[saturnin]

I don't agree. All posts in thread. Men have questions and I have answer. It's reasonable. If some speak about aggression or occupation that arises a question about Native Army. For all army is obliged to protect the Motherland and the people of it country from aggression and occupation. Soldiers have the Oath of allegiance to protect the country and people.

I don´t know if this somehow help but when my dad started to clear up to mentioned russian soldier what is happening - he was sorry, In reality my dad remember with emotion that this soldiers started to cry - he was very young and he didn´t wanted to INVADE Czechoslovakia, he even started to apologize fot this - he started something about that he wants change too (that what amazed in other direction my dad he didnt´t know that there is same feeling about communist party somewhere in SSSR) then came officer screaming on this pure soldier to shut up

I give up keeping this thread in "strictly photos & videos" direction

[saturnin]

my dad also mentioned that this young soldier had many books (novels) in his car, so he was obviously sensitive for his age

[v-twin]

Bachelor, I respect your work in the WaffenSS thread but right now you are a little too black/white in your approach.

The czechoslovak, sovereign in Czechoslovakia wanted to do away with communism. Foreigh powers invaded and infringed a country's sovereignity together with its population's. Now. They were facing the whole WP (-1 country), so why go out on the streets? To have the soviet tanks roll over their bodies like they would over rags? It would've been pointless and maybe, just maybe that could've sparked a permanent occupation of CZSK&incorporation into the USSR.

As a joke from Romania goes, the USSR neighbours whoever it wants.

[TakeIt]

I suggest that insults are better left out. Even if information you receive is uncomfortable.


ok, beter to say MOST of soviet soldiers didn´t knowIn another thread a user Mamont already provided enough on this subject. Carefully read about political information, maps etc. I can add, that it was in _no_way_possible_ for soldiers to not know where they are located now, where they headed and what orders are given in particular.


say it so many people who stepped on sssr tanks and asked: what are you exactly doing here, in radio they say you are here to change our government? what does it mean?
Russian soldiers: we don´t know, we just get order to suize this square, town,....You are changing the subjects here - they receive order. They don't need to know the purpose or the whole point of the operation. They knew their tasks, and that was enough and adequate. There is no point to ask a soldier those questions. Especially related to politics. So there is no point in this "argument".


when my dad stopped some soldiers on Gaz he asked how can you invide my country, why?
Russian soldier: don´t worry it´s just excercise
my dad: it´s not I just heard you taken radios by force
russian soldier: we don´t know are you sure about this?Not to mention that folklore is a matter of doubtfull reliability especially in "touchy cases" i can see a different explanation for such answers immediatly:
1. They were instructed to give such answer.
2. They were unaware of the opreation of other squads.
Yet of course you picked the only comfortable explanation, that suits your view on the situation.

Again, there were ~200 000 troops out there, yet on this sole case along with a couple of similar ones you made a generalisation. A flawed logic from any point of view. Especially if not supported by _any_ document. Have you read any russian sources on the subject? Like for example reports of Y.M.Rybak, leutenant, who was responcible for the capture of postoffice, radio and TV station in Bratislava? Or general research like "SU in local wars and conflicts" by Lavrenov S. and Popov I.? Obviosly not.


you suggest that Dubček intention was to bring ČSSR to NATO????Why did you receive such impresion? He took power and started to kick out old members of the communist party, generally the most loyal or friendly toward SU. Under him in press emerged articles about role of SU in CZ life, firstly whether CZ needs SU, than when CZ frees itself from SU. Lt.General V.Prhlik, voiced an idea that CZ must leave WP. Other members voiced their opinion about necessity to leave SEV/CMEA too. All this and much more was tolerated by Dubchek. Than he established close ties with Yugoslavia and Romania, resulting in agreement with Chaushesku about friendship and mutual help. Paragraph 8 stated that Romania would help CZ in case of 3rd party intervention. Considering that Romania and CZ were part of WP, the past history of romanian attempts to transform WP into some kind of discussion club(voiced by M.Malita in 1966), the current growing wish of CZ goverment to leave WP, deteriorated relations beyween SU and Romania(who during Caribean Crisis assured western powers of it's neutrality in case of conflict escalation), growing friendship with Tito and refusing to allow SU forces to stay on CZ soil one does not have to have a big imagination as to foresee where development of CZ under Dubchek might've lead. It's rather impressive what he did in such a short time, btw. Considering that first ideas for operation "Dunaj" emerged in february-march 1968, after Novotny was overthrown and at 1 may Brezhnev openly voiced an idea "to strenghten defence of socialistic bloc on the border of FRG and Austria" on the premise of "21 NATO divisions are on this border", SU and other WP members were truly concerned about possible future and balance of power if CZ would abandon socialistic bloc.

[Mr.K]

I am sorry i have not so much time to go throug all this archives, sources act, to put you on right direction, but i can tell you that communist party lost contor over some aspect of live - but people of Czechoslovakia at that moment (before invasion) they thought that there is option for communist with human face (don´t ask me what i think about it p-)) and THEY DIDN´T GET CLOUSE TO ANY IDEA OF BREAKING OFF!!!!! (not that I would be proud of it)

you are right that in late 60´s there was strong student movements - but it was (generally) in the direction of socialisms!

until Czechoslovak occupation it was warking for soviets, just after that peoples in west countries get knowleadge what SSSR politics looks like.

Dubček didn´t loose control if you mean that before invasion there was any idea like: well from now our territory is not at dispozal to WP forces.

Student movements wanted change period. In capitalist countries i guess they wanted more socialism. Since they knew little about it. And in communist countires people wanted capitalism, since they also knew little about it.

What I mean is that the CSSR communist party and Dubcek started reforms, but I don't think they were expecting such a reaction and such radial changes from the population.

Interesting part about the czech armed forces at that time. So they knew, or they didn't knew? No offense, but now it sounds a bit like a herotic tale of "they could have". But were there resistance similar to partizans in WW2?

As for this topic turning in a discussion. Well, all the pictures have been posted. Spring 68 is over long time ago.:)

Saturnin, there is never a "good" reason to invade a country according to the citizens of the said country. No one likes to be occipied, and have freedoms restricted. Strategically the WP did not have a choice, I guess the commanders didn't want to face a similar situation like in Hungary.





I don't agree. All posts in thread. Men have questions and I have answer. It's reasonable. If some speak about aggression or occupation that arises a question about Native Army. For all army is obliged to protect the Motherland and the people of it country from aggression and occupation. Soldiers have the Oath of allegiance to protect the country and people.

I disagree, that's bordereline demagogy here. A full scale war would have been disastrous PR for the communist parties and socialist governments worldwide, and it would have been a major political victory for USA and NATO. Instead of a hundred dead, you would have thousands, soviets, WP and czechoslovaks and large city in ruins. For what? For socialist ideals? So that "the free world", could gloat while the eastern block is killing eachoter? In 1945 the SU was seens as a liberator by czechs, since then we lost a lot of "points".


Do you think that in august 1991, the soviet Army should have opened fire on protestors in Moscow? In 1993 the government used force against its citizens who didn't agree with Yelstin (Way more than 70 people died). I don't think many people in Russia will tell you that it was the "Right thing do to, and Yeltsin saved democracy". I don't think that soldiers and other government forces that participated during these events are extremely proud.

[Origin]

rarely pics, hard lessons for those who forgot history.

[saturnin]

I suggest that insults are better left out. Even if information you receive is uncomfortable.

In another thread a user Mamont already provided enough on this subject. Carefully read about political information, maps etc. I can add, that it was in _no_way_possible_ for soldiers to not know where they are located now, where they headed and what orders are given in particular.

You are changing the subjects here - they receive order. They don't need to know the purpose or the whole point of the operation. They knew their tasks, and that was enough and adequate. There is no point to ask a soldier those questions. Especially related to politics. So there is no point in this "argument".

Not to mention that folklore is a matter of doubtfull reliability especially in "touchy cases" i can see a different explanation for such answers immediatly:
1. They were instructed to give such answer.
2. They were unaware of the opreation of other squads.
Yet of course you picked the only comfortable explanation, that suits your view on the situation.

Again, there were ~200 000 troops out there, yet on this sole case along with a couple of similar ones you made a generalisation. A flawed logic from any point of view. Especially if not supported by _any_ document. Have you read any russian sources on the subject? Like for example reports of Y.M.Rybak, leutenant, who was responcible for the capture of postoffice, radio and TV station in Bratislava? Or general research like "SU in local wars and conflicts" by Lavrenov S. and Popov I.? Obviosly not.

Why did you receive such impresion? He took power and started to kick out old members of the communist party, generally the most loyal or friendly toward SU. Under him in press emerged articles about role of SU in CZ life, firstly whether CZ needs SU, than when CZ frees itself from SU. Lt.General V.Prhlik, voiced an idea that CZ must leave WP. Other members voiced their opinion about necessity to leave SEV/CMEA too. All this and much more was tolerated by Dubchek. Than he established close ties with Yugoslavia and Romania, resulting in agreement with Chaushesku about friendship and mutual help. Paragraph 8 stated that Romania would help CZ in case of 3rd party intervention. Considering that Romania and CZ were part of WP, the past history of romanian attempts to transform WP into some kind of discussion club(voiced by M.Malita in 1966), the current growing wish of CZ goverment to leave WP, deteriorated relations beyween SU and Romania(who during Caribean Crisis assured western powers of it's neutrality in case of conflict escalation), growing friendship with Tito and refusing to allow SU forces to stay on CZ soil one does not have to have a big imagination as to foresee where development of CZ under Dubchek might've lead. It's rather impressive what he did in such a short time, btw. Considering that first ideas for operation "Dunaj" emerged in february-march 1968, after Novotny was overthrown and at 1 may Brezhnev openly voiced an idea "to strenghten defence of socialistic bloc on the border of FRG and Austria" on the premise of "21 NATO divisions are on this border", SU and other WP members were truly concerned about possible future and balance of power if CZ would abandon socialistic bloc.


"I suggest that insults are better left out. Even if information you receive is uncomfortable"

what you mean exactly by uncomfortable? unreliable or you just you don´t like what I say?
I gave you first hand report, from my grandfather (sorry, when I typed the "exact" part of first discussion i wrote dad instead grandfather) I have no way now to prove that he didnt´t lied to me, I can only ensure you that he is man of principles, he don´t lie or "improve" his information even when he was asked by "govermanemtn" and "wrong" answer leads to punishment

I was saying that there were soldiers (many) who didn´t know what was purpose of this "manovreus" - at this part we should agree?

if not - you are giving to much theatrical credit to many very young people at very stressful situation
and I am not refering to "folklore" when I speak about fact: those soldiers didn´t know there are there to "change" government - when I was very curious young men I visited my dad at (I don´t how to translate it properly - letś say - hospital for old people, I was many times in waiting room and I spoked to old people who enjoied possibility to shorter their time speaking to somebody - I was always curious about 1968 - many of those were reffering to same: when they asked sssr soldiers - those have no clue whats going on (it´s not folklore (don´t know whot you mean excatly by this) when it´s them who had this conversation, they didn´t take this from others....)
one of those old people was actor at that time, just maybe he would recognize if those soldiers he asked was acting?

if you say that they were soldiers and they get orders and fullfil them - yes I agree, but when you say that this "conversation" was few cases - well this soldiers stayed there for some time - all citizens of Czechoslovakia wanted to know whatś going on - so they asked them many many times what they think about it ect. - this is not GENERALIZATION - not few cases, this discution were wery intense and vere common - I read a lot about this and I have never came across any Idea that those soldiers was told to say that this is manovreues why telling them truth (i am not speaking now about some Specnatz unit who sized important station ect)

and obviously for those people there was point to ask this occupant why are they here....

as for if they They were unaware of the opreation of other squads - yes they many times were, it was full scale operation - in many aspect provisional - when you says that they sometimes didn´t even know what town they was - yes they didn´t - but I was never discaliming this just oposite

as for you comments about politics - common? did you read something besides russian/SSSR sources?
as for Prchlík - he critized soviet forces for their performance in "Šumava" manovresus - (he also mention they wasn´t able to get quckly out of their position) do not wonder SSSR didn´t like him especially when he was patriot
SSSR was happy to find reason for this, he was their first call

and you are very, very, very exaggerate ties with Yogoslavia and Romania (especially when you say there was realistic plan for turning WP into discussing club) :)
as for: Paragraph 8 stated that Romania would help CZ in case of 3rd party intervention

yeah that is for sure realistic thread to SSSR

you use very small portion of Czechoslovak representatives to generalize that Czechoslovakia was on plan to completely break off/completely change direction of their politics, that they was not longer to assist WP when needed

[TakeIt]

what you mean exactly by uncomfortable? Just that. Uncomfortable. Like not totally corresponding with what you _believed_ in all this time.


unreliable or you just you don´t like what I say?So far you didn't presented anything that could be considered "reliable".


I gave you first hand report, from my grandfatherPlease, folk stories are better left aside. And besides, i do believe more to memories of direct participants than some unnamed relative, especially when it comes to what was happening inside Soviet Army.


I have no way now to prove that he didnt´t lied to me, Memory is often a very unreliable thing. Especially about distant events. Unless you can support it with reliable infromation, just left it aside.


I was saying that there were soldiers (many) who didn´t know what was purpose of this "manovreus" - at this part we should agree?Why? I've read much on the subject, from general political analysis, to memoirs and reports of people who perfomed their duties in CZ. In what world do you think i must take words of your grandfather over theirs? It is obvious that to think that some CZ citisen knew more about what happened inside SA than any of it's members is mighty strange.

Also, considering:
- numerous articles in state papers about situation in CZ, that were often read aloud to the soldiers
- final preparations completed from 17-18 till 20 August(reaming, refueling, white bands on vehicles etc)
- participating forces received maps with marked objectives
- an "Instruction about cooperation during "Dunaj" operation" was issued (according to wich all vehicles without bands must be neutralised and in case of opening fire on the friendly units - immediatly destroyed, also instruction about returning small arms fire, signals etc)
- political lessons twice a week revolving around cituation in CZ
- last minute instruction issued to officers and soldiers just before the move.
its obvious that your statement is not simply incorrect, but false. They were there to preserve "socialism" as they were told it was, as was told by their superiors.

If you dislike Russia so much you could at least read V.Suvorov's "Liberator" if you so suspicious about russian sources, as much as i dislike the man and his "creations" you could at least grab some information from there.

Also i find it very interesting how you turned from "remember than even soviet soldiers didn´t know that this is not manovreus as they were told" to "purpose of this "manovreus"".


I speak about fact: those soldiers didn´t know there are there to "change" governmentAgain - they don't need that information. In any way. They've had their orders. I really don't understand the necessity to press this issue.


when you say that this "conversation" was few cases - well this soldiers stayed there for some time - all citizens of Czechoslovakia wanted to know whatś going on - so they asked them many many times what they think about it ect. - this is not GENERALIZATION - not few cases, Give me a break. Forces, participated in opreation Dunaj: SU - 170k men, Poland - 40k, Hungary - 10k, Bulgaria - 5k men. If your "cases" accounted for at least 10% of this force, ~20k men, with at least some statistical analysis, than we could make _assumptions_. But as i told you before - face it, you simply cannot make _any_ general assesment about what knowledge soldiers posessed about general situation in CZ. Especially if you have absolutely no clue about preparations for the operation and measures taken to inform soldiers about internal situation in CZ.


I read a lot about this and I have never came across any Idea that those soldiers was told to say that this is manovreues why telling them truth (i am not speaking now about some Specnatz unit who sized important station ect)You know, "some Specnatz unit" after "i read a lot" press me to not take your words seriously.


and obviously for those people there was point to ask this occupant why are they here....So? I really don't understand the point in asking ordinary soldiers this question. They simply couldn't have any satisfactory answer. They were there according to orders, to ensure that goals, set in higher eshelons of power, would be achieved.


as for you comments about politics - common? did you read something besides russian/SSSR sources?Of course. However none of the non-russian sources have comparable in-depth information about operation Dunaj. Obviously.


as for Prchlík - he critized soviet forces for their performance in "Šumava" manovresusI was talking about TV interview he gave in June, when he pressed the idea that WP was an unequal alliance and said that CZ should defend itself instead of relying on WP, that CZ needs to form its own military doctrine that would be different that WP doctrine. Dubchek ignored SU calls about removing Prchlík from command completely, making him a commander of one of the districts, after which Prchlík simply continued his activity.


and you are very, very, very exaggerate ties with Yogoslavia and RomaniaAm i? Let's see your information on the subject.


(especially when you say there was realistic plan for turning WP into discussing club):)I already gave you a reference when it was done and by who. If you want to remain ignorant - your choice. I understand you're fully unaware of a role and actions of Romania in WP.


yeah that is for sure realistic thread to SSSR You simply don't understand the importance of this agreement. Especially during high tensions between SU,CZ and Romania.


you use very small portion of Czechoslovak representativesYou are talking about CZ goverment, people, responcible for the decision and policy making. Don't act childish.

[HorrigEn]

whats your point? just please, shut the **** up already!!

[Mr.K]

whats your point? just please, shut the **** up already!!

You know, things are very civil in this thread, and its informative, if you can't handle a discussion because you dislike some responses and arguments, you can just leave instead of dropping F bombs left and right.

[saturnin]

Well as I already said I can help you TakeIt

We both look at world from diferent perspectives, I do not have so much time to spend it all here to at least approach you to my aknowledge of this event. It becomes somehow unproductive when you started to denying any information i give, which become from czech sources/people.

I know this is internet, I can´t blame you for not taking serriously of what somebody else post here. You say that that there is some "folklore" or what. That all this people hear (in czechoslovakia) started at one making fairy tales or what. Well I live among this people ( some of them have already died). Well I am aware that peoples tend to forget details and so..., but this is not this case. I don´t know if you know something about memories - but there are some moments (mostly stressfull) which you remember for ages and you can describe any details... even if you not you write down what you go throw... I am not going to giving you more and more information, not becouse there are no of them (in fact there so many of them, we even have something what is caled institut for study of totalit crime (both nazis and communist) which collect memories of those, they are hundres book which include peoples memories about this even, they are xxx filmed conversation with them ect..... I just can see how it could help, if anything what didn´t came from sssr/russian sources you from begining see as suspicious

when I stared with my grandfather memories I just though It might be more interesing for people who didn´t live there, who didn´t have much information or didn´t know about occupation at all - I thought that this might just little improve to only posting all articles, and such.....
well, It didn´t, my mistake

as for Suvorov everybody reasonable enough know thatś it bulls....
I would never shape my view of SSSR throug this :roll:
there is interesting notes about his books: http://www.battlefield.ru/content/view/208/108/lang,en/
(you have propably already read this...)

as for specnatz unit - yes I know this is very wide concept (can´t fire proper term write now), but we could maybe agree on that there was such units which would fall in wide description of specnatz and that their members did get information whatś going to happend

as for people of Czechoslovakia having any idea that occpation is coming - well i repeat myself here, except very very very small number of "hard" comunist party members - who get that information just few days or even only day before invasion - regular peoples, soldiers... have no clue......
we can´t find agreement on this so please left this without futher comment, who readed this thread already know you position....

Please leave this thread without futher decline value of citizen of Czechoslovakia in 1968 (one way or other)....

I hope that you are aware that I do not troll in ather threads (at strictly photos...). I do appreciate my most favourite thread Russian photos and are thankfull to russian members who donates to this thread

so please if you are not going to post photos on this thread do not post at all, I do don´t deny russian sucrifice during some periods you should not deny victims of occupation - especailly at this section of militaryphots

[saturnin]

sorry double post

[TakeIt]

We both look at world from diferent perspectives It's not like that, big countries have their truth, small countries had theirs. And this was the case in 1968. I do understand the motives of SU and other WP members as well as CZ.


It becomes somehow unproductive when you started to denying any information i give, which become from czech sources/people.Your information was incorrect. Nothing more. And nothing personal.


That all this people hear (in czechoslovakia) started at one making fairy tales or what.No, you got that wrong. It's not about making up stories, it's about interpreting events, colored be personal feelings.


if anything what didn´t came from sssr/russian sources you from begining see as suspiciousNot like that. While from the russian/su sources i can assemble a complex cohensive picture of events, memories are often tiny fractures that cannot change it. And so are your grandfather's.


when I stared with my grandfather memories I just though It might be more interesing for people who didn´t live thereinteresting or not is decided by readers here, i just pointed to wrong conclusions. Again, no need to take it too personally.


as for Suvorov everybody reasonable enough know thatś it bulls....Indisputable. This mainly related to his evaluations, assumptions and conclusions as well as writing style. However you can find interesting pieces of information even in his "works".


I would never shape my view of SSSR throug this My intent wasn't to change _your_ views, just to complete them with additional and relevant information.


as for specnatz unit - yes I know this is very wide concept (can´t fire proper term write now), but we could maybe agree on that there was such units which would fall in wide description of specnatz and that their members did get information whatś going to happend, Soldiers were executing their orders. To detain Dubchek and his followers was assigned to 7th Guard paratrooper division. Particulary 108 paratrooper regiment under the command of S.H.Minigulov, colonel(he also took part in Hungary during 1956). It was an order like any other. Units completed their objectives and waited for new orders. What's got to happen was decided on much higher level. BTW, actually what was planned - failed. That's why Dubchek was flown to Moscow.


except very very very small number of "hard" comunist party members - who get that information just few days or even only day before invasion 3 days to be exact. Dubchek knew too.


who readed this thread already know you position// futher decline value of citizen of Czechoslovakia // you should not deny victims of occupation?? You seem to misunderstood me and fell for that old clishe "who's not with us - is against us".

considering the section, indeed, here is famous Karel Kryl:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ4WO7fanT4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ4WO7fanT4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixcNIgLzdw4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixcNIgLzdw4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swZIkDd9xUU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swZIkDd9xUU

[George_nkl]

August 1968... Czechoslovakia... Officers of Czechoslovak Army with Officers of Soviet Army...







For everyone's information, although the legends of the last two pictures clearly state or imply that Czechoslovak soldiers are shown toghether with Soviet soldiers, carefully studying the pictures, should lead to the conclusion that this is not the case. In fact, Bulgarian soldiers are depicted (probably being part of the intervention forces).

[saturnin]

I am glad we can keep this civil, it´s nice you posted Karel Kryl

"No, you got that wrong. It's not about making up stories, it's about interpreting events, colored be personal feelings"

Well if i can remeber correctly I wrote that they asked soviet soldier about if they know what´s going on - my point was that this duscussion was so common back than.... so many peoples go through them that Czechoslovak citizen came to conclusion that mamy WP soldiers was not told thruth about what is reason of their coming to Czechoslovakia - ourselves - they didn´t came to this conclusion becouse someone else told them, nobody tried to convince them that russian soldiers many time didn´t even know that they actually invade country - they came to this ourselves - no need for fairly tales - no interest in making such

"It's not about making up stories, it's about interpreting events, colored be personal feelings"

they came to conclusion - that many russian soldiers do not know that they procesing invasion. I provided one tiny peace example how they came to this conclusion (my grandfathers conversation)
I was reffering to FACT that there were russian soldiers who didn´t know what it was about, you say that there was was wrong interpretation which leaded to wrong assumption - so this fact is in reality no fact :)(it´s late and my englisch is getting worse every minutes)
well I am still confident that many soldiers.... - ie it is fact for me
well I am still confident that those conversations (giving conditon under which they were taken as I described..., - that there we no change to so quckly lern so many young soldiers to make such dramatic theathre under very stressful situation which would at all cases confidence so many people that they are telling truth....

You probably do not deny that many (regular tankes, ect,) WP soldiers did not have clue.... ie FACT
you still deny that Czechoslovak citizen realize this fact through those conversations.... at that case we just have different pozition which probably cannot be solved by futher disputing
(remember that just before invasion a lot of People of czechoslovakia actually liked russian soldiers (that´s it), they didn´t see them as evil actualy just oposit - as former liberator (Yes thay mostly know that they have some - from central europe perspectives "unusual" habits or luck of them (please take it as it is, I do not decline them) - still they liked them) - there was nothing like: you such idiots and your officer are so evil so you don´t even know that you actully invade - when they started asking there was clear table at the just beginning of operation.

"However you can find interesting pieces of information even in his "works". "(Suvorov)

you are right, reading this book might rise interesting questions, for example about numbers of pilots which was trained and such...., I said that taking this book much seriously is.....

I am not sure if you acknoledged that when I was reffering to specnazt units it wasn´t becouse it is "cool" to use such word as specnat, but becouse there were units which can be called specnatz

my original post: /////////as for people of Czechoslovakia having any idea that occpation is coming - well i repeat myself here, except very very very small number of "hard" comunist party members - who get that information just few days or even only day before invasion - regular peoples, soldiers... have no clue......///////
your quote: ////except very very very small number of "hard" comunist party members - who get that information just few days or even only day before invasion////
your answer: "3 days to be exact. Dubchek knew too."

you didn´t queoted part in which i said that regular people/soldiers didn´t know that invasion is coming - at the begining of this thread you said (correct me if am wrong, I am very tired by no :|, somebody else could posted this or I get wrong impression) that regular people could have expect invasion - but from your newer answer it MIGHT looks like that even according to you they didn´t know (not much time to spread humors.... and this information didn´t go through media - "hard" communist and soviet advisors took care of this, (not than anybody tried to go public with this)

tomorrow i will not have much time to discuss anything (maybe at night?)

have a nice day

I don´t know you if you understand anything in czech languases (I can see Center of Europe under you avatar so maybe):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppNglGI3D7E

some new music about theme:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgnvDh1x1A8

note i have just read my post and even I can´t understand some sentences, repeating same argument maybe, I should sleep for more than four hours daily

[sup_tech]

Its brainwashed attitudes like this, should remind people regularly to be grateful the soviet union collapsed.

Pravada lives on....

I'll have you known that first of all, I personally hate communism. Secondly, "Pravda" is no longer in the hands of the Russian government but is privatized and owned by a Greek businessman. And thirdly, speaking about attitudes based on propaganda stereotypes why don't you go to Iraq and find us some weapons of mass destruction, smarta$$?

[saturnin]

I manage to have few minutes on this forum

to TakeIt: fist video, when I was speaking about if you understand something in Czech language: i wanted to post video with radio transmission - but posted wrong video with Kryl
intended video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCqCs4xOdOI


to sup_tech: You lost credibility when started with ex-Nazi sympatizers...
I don´t excpect you will say sorry for that - just live, do not post again even if you manage to include some videos or photos to your messages

[Kilgor]

to sup_tech: You lost credibility when started with ex-Nazi sympatizers...
I don´t excpect you will say sorry for that - just live, do not post again even if you manage to include some videos or photos to your messages

My point exactly...

[Musashi]

2 People died, it was a polish tank,who crashed the house.

thx @ Hast 2
Are you sure the tank was Polish?
1. The Polish Army has never used T-62s.
2. There should be a white and red chequerboard painted in the front of the turret of the tank.

[Bugaboo]

Musashi, a bit off topic, can you tell me whats the origin of the Polish "red and white checkboard" emblem?

Re the tank: I thought it was the fatal accident of a Russian tank but honestly I don't know for sure.

But just look at the people in the arcade in front of the tank... scary.

[saturnin]

I already posted link which include more photos from this accident: http://www.halamicek.de/1968

and more information about photographer who take the photo (only czech language :-(): http://www.fotoreporter.cz/report/272-srpen-v-liberci-na-fotografiich.html

[minimus]

Ok, from the pics linked by Saturnin seems clear that they are Russian.

BTW, I think what Czechs and Slovaks were doing then was smart and gutsy. Doing anything more more just cause more deaths and gained nothing.

[saturnin]

shortly before accident, same building

[jerzy]

Re the tank: I thought it was the fatal accident of a Russian tank but honestly I don't know for sure.


It could be East German tank.

[minimus]

saturnin, what is the Czech site you quoted on the previous page say? Does it say which troops were in Liberec? Was it just Russians?

[saturnin]

all sources claim it is soviet tank, as for East German - their participation was minimal during occupation. Right now I can´t found any information about german soldiers in liberec

[Bugaboo]

The page says Polish troops advanced through this city, Liberec. However they were later replaced by Russian troops. The Caption and the rest of the text mentions "Russian tank", however it is not clear whether the author means "tank of Russian manufacture" or "Russian tank belonging to Polish troops.

I seriously doubt it is a German tank. The participation of Germans was absolutely minimal, I even heard the few soldiers didn't even cross the Czechoslovak border due to historical context.

[saturnin]

saturnin, what is the Czech site you quoted on the previous page say? Does it say which troops were in Liberec? Was it just Russians?

on the site there are information about REAL photographer of those photos

[saturnin]

more photos from Liberec: http://strato3.blog.cz/0712/liberec-okupace-1968

[saturnin]

to be honest I am not much familiar with tactical designation of that period, this photos comes from sam series, maybe someone can identify whether it is soviet/russian or another country:

[saturnin]

from what I quickly searched Poland didn´t used t-62 (only evaluated, but didn ´t accepted), there is no information about t-62 in east germany service. And tactical designation of those tanks is in my opinion rather soviet, they reminds me somehow tactical designation of WWII period (not same but similar)

[Topas]

edited, sorry

[SOLODIN]

from what I quickly searched Poland didn´t used t-62 (only evaluated, but didn ´t accepted), there is no information about t-62 in east germany service. And tactical designation of those tanks is in my opinion rather soviet, they reminds me somehow tactical designation of WWII period (not same but similar)

From all countries of the Warsaw Pact tanks T-62 were on service only the Bulgarian army.

[SOLODIN]

Heavy tank T-10M