Germanys 'new' F124-class Frigate

[McLane]

Hi there again. After the Submarines, now the new State-Of-The-Art (*g*) F124-Class-Frigate is the topic here. I found some nice pics and i hope you enjoy ;)

http://www.sam-electronics.de/neue_dateien/company/bilder/f124.jpg
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/f124/images/Sachsen_10.jpg
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/f124/images/Sachsen_11.jpg
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/f124/images/Sachsen_12.jpg
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/f124/images/Sachsen_13.jpg
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/f124/images/f124_1.jpg
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/f124/images/f124_2.jpg
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/f124/images/f124_6.jpg
http://mitglied.lycos.de/bielatal/f219.JPG
http://mitglied.lycos.de/bielatal/f219_vram.JPG
http://mitglied.lycos.de/bielatal/f219_76mm.JPG
http://mitglied.lycos.de/bielatal/f802.JPG
http://212.72.173.53/img/f124vorbv.jpg
http://212.72.173.53/img/f124vorhh.jpg
http://212.72.173.53/img/sachsen001.jpg
http://212.72.173.53/img/sachsen003.jpg

[droopy]

I just love those stealth ships.
It is a semi-stealth ship isn`t it ?
Is the main cannon retractable because AFAIK it is a very big radar reflector.

[easyand]

Can you post the caracteristics of these ships?
they looks like type 45 or Orizzonte but smaller
PS: why german ships haven't 127mm gun?

[easyand]

I just love those stealth ships.


do you like it ?:
http://www.marina.difesa.it/unita/pagine/navi/borsini/images/borsini_05.jpg

[Mikkel]

http://mitglied.lycos.de/bielatal/f802.JPG

This one is the Dutch hrms "De Zeven Provincien" LCF frigate. However, they are basically the same design as the F124 Sachsen (Germany) and the F100 Alvaro de Bazan (Spain).

Source... (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/dezeven/)

[McLane]

Look there for further Informations:

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/f124/

Spain, Netherlands and Germany share some parts of these Ships. And no, it is not a relally Stealth-Ship, it is... i think semi-stealth. All german Battleships (frigates, Korvettes, Fast Attack Boats and so on) uses the 76mm Geschuetz

[Phoenix]

Can you post the caracteristics of these ships?
they looks like type 45 or Orizzonte but smaller
PS: why german ships haven't 127mm gun?

We develop new guns ... :D
http://www.rheinmetall-detec.de/img/MONARC1.jpg
Pzh 2000 155mm Gun at a german F-124

[McLane]

*lol* that is a tower from a PzH2000 with a 155mm-Canon :D

http://www.marineschepen.nl/nieuws/images/pzh2000.jpg

[Harlequin]

*lol* that is a tower from a PzH2000 with a 155mm-Canon
The turret is from the PzH2000 just as Phoenix said.
Not sure why you laugh though? It for sure is more economic to develop a 155mm naval gun system from an existing one which als fits on the current fleet of ships rather than to develop something like the AGS that the USA develop for their DD(X)- program are destined to be mounted on 6.000t+ vessels.

Further it is 100% compatible with all NATO 155mm rounds.

[McLane]

I looks funny, i think. And of course, it is clear, that is a good idea, because the 76mm-Canon is not very good to shoot landtargets ;)

[he edit his post to write down that it is a PzH2000-Turret, my post was posted before he edit his one ;)]

[droopy]

I just love those stealth ships.


do you like it ?:

yup woot

[J-10]

Nice pics.

http://mbox.hchs.hc.edu.tw/~military/navy/euronavy/f-124-pzh2000.jpg

I think the PzH2000-Turret is just a temporary test on the Sachsen Class F-124.

[tacticalmanta]

Kind of impractical as a weapons system for this day and age.

[Wodan]

Kind of impractical as a weapons system for this day and age.

why?

[sp2c]

pzh2000 can not engage airborne threats can it and the recoil is to heavy for a ship (in high seas)?

afaik it was just a technology testbed not really a serious competition to the OTO melara 76 mm gun

http://www.futura-dtp.dk/FLEET/images/artilleri/127mmOtaMelara.jpg

the twin 127 mm oto melara takes the cake though, has an incredible rate of fire and deadly accuracy

[Wodan]

pzh2000 can not engage airborne threats
for that job we have ram...


and a 155mm cannon would be much bet for the job, it is pruprosed for, artillery, if the ship is 20 kilometers away of the coast it can still attack costal aims and aims 20 kilometers from the coast away to the inland

[Little J]

I read somewhere that BAe Systems was looking at putting 155mm howitzer type guns on future Royal Navy ships.

If I can find it again I'll put a link up

[sp2c]

for that job we have ram...

RAM is a close in weapons system, does not have sufficient range ... besides a 155 mm howitzer is simply meant to support fleet operations.
Low rate of fire, heavy recoil, weight etc.

it just doesn't really make much sense to mount it on a ship unless you want to go back to the whole ww2 battleship idea but then you need a whole battery and a new Bismarck ;)

[Wodan]

it just doesn't really make much sense to mount it on a ship unless you want to go back to the whole ww2 battleship idea but then you need a whole battery and a new Bismarck ;)

and why should I dont want this? ^^


btw. of course it will not be equipped to the F124 class, they are air-defence ships for fleets IF, while the F125 class will be used for anti-submarine fighting, ... maybe F126 could get such a ship

But we will see what happens in future

( I personally think its a good idea, to have 155mm cannons on ships if you want to destroy aims on the coastline or near the coast, its much cheaper than using cruise missiles for that!

[sp2c]

well you should, I know I do ... but politicians tend to get a bit nervous when you talk about big expensive guns or gunboat diplomacy for some reason, I don't really know why that is but I think it means no more battleships (cruisers) for our navy

edit: maybe if the navy calls them frigate, that trick has worked well in the last couple of years ;)

[Wodan]

I was wrong with the F125 sub defence role:


Wirkung von See an Land
Friedensstabilisierende Maßnahmen sind in
den seltensten Fällen rein maritime Aufgabenstellungen.
Sie zielen in der Regel auf Wirkung
an Land ab und erfordern, je nach Einsatzgebiet
und Konflikt/Krise, maritime Beiträge. Die
Bedeutung maritimer Kräfte wird daher maßgeblich
von deren Fähigkeiten abhängen, zu
streitkräftegemeinsamen Aufgaben und Zielsetzungen
beitragen zu können. Auf der
Grundlage der zuvor dargestellten maritimen
Fähigkeiten werden zum Wirken von See an
Land von F 125 folgende Fähigkeiten gefordert:
x Befähigung zur Unterstützung von Operationen
von Spezial- und spezialisierten Kräften
x Befähigung zur Unterstützung von Evakuierungsoperationen
x Befähigung zur taktischen Feuerunterstützung
von See


"force from see to land" is one of the main aims


Die Unterstützung der Operationen von Spezial
bzw. spezialisierten Kräften umfasst deren
Unterbringung an Bord, den Transport ins Einsatzgebiet,
die unmittelbare Einsatzvorbereitung
an Bord, die Verbringung an und von Land
sowie Führungs- und Kommunikationsunterstützung
von Bord während des Einsatzes an
Land.
Die Unterstützung von Evakuierungsoperationen
umfasst zusätzlich Fähigkeiten zur Verbringung
von zu evakuierendem Personal und
Material an Bord sowie dessen Unterbringung
und Versorgung während des Transports zu einem
sicheren Hafen.
Taktische Feuerunterstützung von See ist Teil
der Landzielbekämpfung durch Seestreitkräfte,
baut auf dem in der konzeptionellen Weiterentwicklung
der Streitkräfte geforderten System
streitkräftegemeinsamer Feuerunterstützung
(Joint Fires) auf und umfasst die Bereiche:
x Bekämpfung von Zielen an Land zur unmittelbaren
Unterstützung eigener Kräfte
x Bekämpfung von Zielen an Land zur Vorbereitung
eigener Operationen an Land
x Bekämpfung von Zielen an Land zur Erfüllung
streitkräftegemeinsamer Aufgaben
x Erwidern gegnerischen Feuers

[Wodan]

well you should, I know I do ... but politicians tend to get a bit nervous when you talk about big expensive guns or gunboat diplomacy for some reason, I don't really know why that is but I think it means no more battleships (cruisers) for our navy

edit: maybe if the navy calls them frigate, that trick has worked well in the last couple of years ;)


well the F124 is also a destroyer, but was called Fregate (its even heavier than the destroyers it replaces in germany were, and it has the same role, like destroyers)

[sp2c]

I know, it's Dutch sister class is technically (tonnage, armament, battlefield role, waterdisplacement etc.) a destroyer as well (and one of the best in the world at that) but they are called airdefence and command frigates for some strange reason

[Wodan]

I know, it's Dutch sister class is technically (tonnage, armament, battlefield role, waterdisplacement etc.) a destroyer as well (and one of the best in the world at that) but they are called airdefence and command frigates for some strange reason

Political Correctness, "Zerstörer" or "Schlachtschiff" are bad words ;)


But if I call a Main Battle Tank "tracked 120mm gun carrying vehicle", it wont lessen its strength!

[Wodan]

the german Rheinmetall-DeTec AG says


Seit dem August 2004 ist die Projektgruppe MONARC, bestehend aus den Firmen Krauss-Maffei Wegmann GmbH, Howaldtswerke Deutsche Werft AG und Rheinmetall Waffe Munition GmbH, im Rahmen einer Studie tätig, um in den Vorbereitungen zur Projektierungsphase Fregatte F125, speziell zur Schaffung der Fähigkeit zum Wirken an Land (Naval Gun Fire Support) weitergehende Untersuchungen zum Thema MONARC durchzuführen.

this means, using the PzH2000 155mm cannon is planned for the F125


they also say


. Eine neue Generation von Artilleriemunition, an der die Entwicklungsingenieure von Rheinmetall Waffe Munition arbeiten, verspricht Reichweiten von über 80 Kilometern.

that Rheinmetall develops a new ammonution, which will have a range of over 80 kilometers instead of 40!

The cannon will be called MONARC

[sp2c]

Political Correctness, "Zerstörer" or "Schlachtschiff" are bad words ;)


But if I call a Main Battle Tank "tracked 120mm gun carrying vehicle", it wont lessen its strength!
true but don't be surprised if the politicians adept it's combat role accordingly.

"what do you mean engage tanks in the frontline? it's a tracked 120mm gun carrying vehicle not a tank, you can leave our baby's in the rear to guard against infiltrators thank you very much"

I hate politicians :fork:

[sp2c]

the german Rheinmetall-DeTec AG says


Seit dem August 2004 ist die Projektgruppe MONARC, bestehend aus den Firmen Krauss-Maffei Wegmann GmbH, Howaldtswerke Deutsche Werft AG und Rheinmetall Waffe Munition GmbH, im Rahmen einer Studie tätig, um in den Vorbereitungen zur Projektierungsphase Fregatte F125, speziell zur Schaffung der Fähigkeit zum Wirken an Land (Naval Gun Fire Support) weitergehende Untersuchungen zum Thema MONARC durchzuführen.

this means, using the PzH2000 155mm cannon is planned for the F125


they also say


. Eine neue Generation von Artilleriemunition, an der die Entwicklungsingenieure von Rheinmetall Waffe Munition arbeiten, verspricht Reichweiten von über 80 Kilometern.

that Rheinmetall develops a new ammonution, which will have a range of over 80 kilometers instead of 40!

The cannon will be called MONARC

sweet if it works but still think you'd be better of with oto melara naval guns

[Wodan]

the german Rheinmetall-DeTec AG says


Seit dem August 2004 ist die Projektgruppe MONARC, bestehend aus den Firmen Krauss-Maffei Wegmann GmbH, Howaldtswerke Deutsche Werft AG und Rheinmetall Waffe Munition GmbH, im Rahmen einer Studie tätig, um in den Vorbereitungen zur Projektierungsphase Fregatte F125, speziell zur Schaffung der Fähigkeit zum Wirken an Land (Naval Gun Fire Support) weitergehende Untersuchungen zum Thema MONARC durchzuführen.

this means, using the PzH2000 155mm cannon is planned for the F125


they also say


. Eine neue Generation von Artilleriemunition, an der die Entwicklungsingenieure von Rheinmetall Waffe Munition arbeiten, verspricht Reichweiten von über 80 Kilometern.

that Rheinmetall develops a new ammonution, which will have a range of over 80 kilometers instead of 40!

The cannon will be called MONARC

sweet if it works but still think you'd be better of with oto melara naval guns

ok...

you are 20 km away of the coast
and want to hit a armoured target 60km in the inland, and try this with a 127mm OTO Melara.....

[Hellfish]

The US Navy experimented with a 155mm cannon on either a Kidd or Spruance-class Destroyer some time ago. IIRC, the recoil was too much for the ship to handle.

[sp2c]

ok...

you are 20 km away of the coast
and want to hit a armoured target 60km in the inland, and try this with a 127mm OTO Melara.....

Try it during a storm and watch the bow of your ship hit the sea floor

I'd go for the Harpoon.

the naval gun is not meant for pin point shooting but for stradling a beach with as much shells as possible (or kill small surface combatants) ... you need to get close in anyways because you have to protect the amphibious taskgroup

[Wodan]

ok...

you are 20 km away of the coast
and want to hit a armoured target 60km in the inland, and try this with a 127mm OTO Melara.....

Try it during a storm and watch the bow of your ship hit the sea floor

I'd go for the Harpoon.

the naval gun is not meant for pin point shooting but for stradling a beach with as much shells as possible (or kill small surface combatants) ... you need to get close in anyways because you have to protect the amphibious taskgroup

ever heared of SMArt?

[Harlequin]

pzh2000 can not engage airborne threats can it and the recoil is to heavy for a ship (in high seas)?

German 76mm guns with their current ammunition have a hit probability against missiles of 7%. Having a sea born effector against land targets is a requirement even the USN acknowledged with their AGS. For what you mean, RAM and MLG27 are better suited. Else there is still the layered defence

The recoil forces are absorbed through a flexible mount with buffers with the barrel being fully stabilised to compensate for roll and pitch.

[AVZ]

ok...

you are 20 km away of the coast
and want to hit a armoured target 60km in the inland, and try this with a 127mm OTO Melara.....

Try it during a storm and watch the bow of your ship hit the sea floor

I'd go for the Harpoon.

the naval gun is not meant for pin point shooting but for stradling a beach with as much shells as possible (or kill small surface combatants) ... you need to get close in anyways because you have to protect the amphibious taskgroup

ever heared of SMArt?


I don't know why you always take the opposite opinion of Wodan. But the US is/was trying to get their hands on SMArt a few years ago and I'm not surprised to see it copied in the next years. My info is that they bought a few hundred or so shells to "test" it.
I think SMArt is the way to go. The purpose in german opinion is more to use it as precise weapon while dealing with rescue/evacuation operations and not "invasion-like" beach landings - as I see it.


I'm really intrested in the US naval gun. How far are they?? Any info on it??

[mountainbear]

Isn’t the Smart ammunition supposed to be anti-tank? Or I missed something and Smart is different to SMArt.
http://www.gr.admin.ch/internet/armasuisse/en/home/laufende/imbereich/kampffahrzeuge/intelligente.html
http://www.gr.admin.ch/internet/armasuisse/en/home/laufende/imbereich/kampffahrzeuge/intelligente.Par.0011.Image.direct.gif/smart-funktion.jpg
http://www.gr.admin.ch/internet/armasuisse/en/home/laufende/imbereich/kampffahrzeuge/intelligente.Par.0013.Image.direct.gif/smart_sizze.jpg


I’ve read that the American future DDX destroyer would be equipped whit two 155mm guns.

[McLane]

It seems that we will have retro-Ships, with really big guns like the Cruisers and Battleships in the last century. Strange... but cool ;) Any Concepts of the F125? Would be interssting..

[weissent]

We're allowed to have Frigates?

[Harlequin]

I'm really intrested in the US naval gun. How far are they?? Any info on it??

Here two pictures:
AGS Turret with the ammunition on the right:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y112/Hellekin/AGM-NorthropGrumman-withammoround.jpg

Below- deck diagram:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y112/Hellekin/AGM-NorthropGrumman-Ammohandling.jpg

Else just search for "AGS" and "Advanced Gun System" in google ;)
Specs are here:
http://www.gdatp.com/products/lethality/AGS/AGS.htm

[foxtrot023]

I know, it's Dutch sister class is technically (tonnage, armament, battlefield role, waterdisplacement etc.) a destroyer as well (and one of the best in the world at that) but they are called airdefence and command frigates for some strange reason

Political Correctness, "Zerstörer" or "Schlachtschiff" are bad words ;)


But if I call a Main Battle Tank "tracked 120mm gun carrying vehicle", it wont lessen its strength!

same as the F100 class, they are rated as frigates with 5500 Tn of displacement

[hedgehog]

Can someone explain the criteria for saying something is a cruiser, destroyer, frigate, corvette etc.

thanks

[bloddyaxe]

Can someone explain the criteria for saying something is a cruiser, destroyer, frigate, corvette etc.

thanks

As far as I know its based on tonnage

corvette around 500 tons
frigate around 2000+
destroyer around 9000
cruiser around 12000+

[sp2c]

I don't know why you always take the opposite opinion of Wodan.

because he's allways wrong ;)

no but seriously, why can't I disagree with the guy? I just don't allways agree with his views so what? It's not like we're flaming the crap out of each other or anything I actually enjoy it :hug:

besides, it's a Dutch thing if I disagree on something I have to speak up, it's not just Wodan either


But the US is/was trying to get their hands on SMArt a few years ago and I'm not surprised to see it copied in the next years. My info is that they bought a few hundred or so shells to "test" it.
I think SMArt is the way to go. The purpose in german opinion is more to use it as precise weapon while dealing with rescue/evacuation operations and not "invasion-like" beach landings - as I see it.

then you don't need a gun at all but a large hangar that can fit 6 Tigers :)

[sp2c]

German 76mm guns with their current ammunition have a hit probability against missiles of 7%. Having a sea born effector against land targets is a requirement even the USN acknowledged with their AGS. For what you mean, RAM and MLG27 are better suited. Else there is still the layered defence

it's not for missiles but for Helicopters ... it's cheaper that way
for anything else I'd go with the Ratheon Sparrow and upwards (CIWS is last line of defence)


The recoil forces are absorbed through a flexible mount with buffers with the barrel being fully stabilised to compensate for roll and pitch.

As I said, it would be nice if it works but I still don't see it happening in rough seas

[Harlequin]

it's not for missiles but for Helicopters ... it's cheaper that way
It is not cheaper. RAM and MLG27 already cover those threats and are more effective against small, fast manouvering sea and air threats. It gets more expensive since it is a "Jack of all traits, master of none".

[Olegious]

uh oh, the fatherland is building up its power, the French have better dust off their white flags and hurry up install those speedbumps to slow down the panzers ;)

[caleb]

uh oh, the fatherland is building up its power, the French have better dust off their white flags and hurry up install those speedbumps to slow down the panzers ;)

I highly doubt we could afford another war with the french at this time...maybe in 3-4 years... p-)

[Wodan]

http://www.hrvatski-vojnik.hr/hrvatski-vojnik/0312005/bpictures/h2-14%20velika.jpg
http://www.hrvatski-vojnik.hr/hrvatski-vojnik/0312005/bpictures/h2-14b.jpg
http://www.hrvatski-vojnik.hr/hrvatski-vojnik/0312005/bpictures/hbrod.jpg

pics from hungary, in the DESEX 2005 manouver

(desex stands for Destroyer Exercise, interesting, to see instead of destroyers, just those saxony-class fregates p-) )

[machupichu]

the stealth ships look very very ugly compared to the ww2 "schlachtenschiffen". but it cant be helped i guess. :|

[Cifu]

pics from hungary, in the DESEX 2005 manouver

Hungary wont have any open sea border after the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Monarch (1918)...

Perhaps Croatia you think, no?

[Pille1234]

It's either Split or Varna (Bulgaria)

[Dado]

It´s in Croatia.

[Wodan]

pics from hungary, in the DESEX 2005 manouver

Hungary wont have any open sea border after the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Monarch (1918)...

Perhaps Croatia you think, no? :cantbeli:

of course you are right,

and normally I know this with hungary, I am not totally stupid, but at this moment I havent thought....

[Ballistic]

I believe the F124 is being tendered for the Air Warfare Destoyers for the Australian Navy. It looks like a beautiful ship !!

[Cifu]

pics from hungary, in the DESEX 2005 manouver

Hungary wont have any open sea border after the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Monarch (1918)...

Perhaps Croatia you think, no? :cantbeli:

of course you are right,

and normally I know this with hungary, I am not totally stupid, but at this moment I havent thought....

No offense, everyone has bad moments. ;)

[Saturn5]

The Desex is held in the Black Sea. Therefore it is either Bulgaria or Romania and not Croati or Hungary (!)

[Pille1234]

The Desex is held in the Black Sea. Therefore it is either Bulgaria or Romania and not Croati or Hungary (!)
Most of us are aware of that, but before the ships arrived in Varna, they visited Croatia.

[Saturn5]

The Desex is held in the Black Sea. Therefore it is either Bulgaria or Romania and not Croati or Hungary (!)
Most of us are aware of that, but before the ships arrived in Varna, they visited Croatia.

Was their visit to Croatia part of the Desex as well? Could be also Ukraine, depents when the picture was taken.

[Wodan]

The Desex is held in the Black Sea. Therefore it is either Bulgaria or Romania and not Croati or Hungary (!)
Most of us are aware of that, but before the ships arrived in Varna, they visited Croatia.

Was their visit to Croatia part of the Desex as well? Could be also Ukraine, depents when the picture was taken.
http://www.marine.de/80256B100061BA9B/vwContentByKey/N26ACH8Q080CSCKDE/$File/Reiseroute_350.jpg




Geplante Ein-/ Auslaufzeiten
Häfen Einlaufen Auslaufen
Wilhelmshaven 23.03.2005
Toulon 01.04.2005 04.04.2005
Toulon 15.04.2005 18.04.2005
Split 22.04.2005 25.04.2005
Varna 29.04.2005 03.05.2005
Constanza 29.04.2005 03.05.2005
Sevastopol 06.05.2005 10.05.2005
Noworossisk 06.05.2005 10.05.2005
Tunis 15.05.2005 19.05.2005
Lissabon 24.05.2005 27.05.2005
Glasgow 02.06.2005 06.06.2005
Faslane 02.06.2005 06.06.2005
Faslane 17.06.2005 20.06.2005
Dublin 21.06.2005 24.06.2005
Cork 22.06.2005 26.06.2005
Portsmouth 29.06.2005 04.07.2005

[Saturn5]

Geplante Ein-/ Auslaufzeiten
Häfen Einlaufen Auslaufen
Wilhelmshaven 23.03.2005
Toulon 01.04.2005 04.04.2005
Toulon 15.04.2005 18.04.2005
Split 22.04.2005 25.04.2005
Varna 29.04.2005 03.05.2005
Constanza 29.04.2005 03.05.2005
Sevastopol 06.05.2005 10.05.2005
Noworossisk 06.05.2005 10.05.2005
Tunis 15.05.2005 19.05.2005
Lissabon 24.05.2005 27.05.2005
Glasgow 02.06.2005 06.06.2005
Faslane 02.06.2005 06.06.2005
Faslane 17.06.2005 20.06.2005
Dublin 21.06.2005 24.06.2005
Cork 22.06.2005 26.06.2005
[b]Portsmouth 29.06.2005 04.07.2005[/b]

@Wodan: Thank you for this information.

If this time table is correct the German ships will miss the International Fleet Review that will held in Portsmouth by one day.

The International Fleet Review will be held on 28 June as special and atmospheric start to Trafalgar 200.

More info at: http://www.trafalgar200.com/programme.html

[-Julik- 4.GdKp]

Very Nice! :)
Gruß aus Österreich!