UK Budget

[Lazy Lob]

Jeezuz freakin krise on a feckin bike, what is the hairy eyebrowed cvnt up to? 50p in the squid? There's going to be nobody to tax. What a bunch of socialist twats. I need a drink.

They must have fvkin realised these type of stunts have and nevah will never work.


From Times Online
April 22, 2009
Darling accused of prompting British brain drain with tax increase on high earners

Philippe Naughton, Miles Costello
Speech in full | Blow-by-blow guide | IMF contradicts Darling | The many versus the few | Word analysis

Alistair Darling set the battlelines for the next election and prompted warnings of a 1970s-style brain drain today when he slapped a new 50p tax rate on high earners.

Mr Darling announced the tax increase in his second Budget as Chancellor after admitting that net public sector borrowing would hit a massive £175 billion this year, and total national debt would peak at almost 80 per cent of GDP.

Altogether the Treasury is forecasting borrowing of more than £700 billion over the next five years - and that figure could rise if Mr Darling is wrong in his prediction that the UK will emerge from recession by the end of this year and return to growth thereafter.

The Chancellor said that those earning more than £150,000 a year would be taxed at 50p in the pound from next April, up from 40p. Those earning more than £100,000 a year will lose all personal allowances, significantly increasing the tax bills of thousands of professionals, including doctors and head teachers.

The top rate of tax has been at 40p since Nigel Lawson cut it from 60p in 1988 but Mr Darling had already announced a rise to 45p from 2011. The decision to bring the increase forward breaks a key pledge in Tony Blair's 2005 manifesto not to raise either the basic or top rate of income tax during this Parliament, and represents a clear break with New Labour's emphasis on rewarding enterprise.

It brought immediate warnings from the City that highly-paid individuals would move to countries with more progressive tax regimes, as happened under Labour in the 1970s when the top rate of tax hit 83 per cent.

But the Budget's most eye-catching measure clearly has a political aim: to wrongfoot the Tories ahead of a general election due by May 2010 at the latest.

Alex Henderson, tax partner at PricewaterhouseCoopers, said today's tax hike could see the City's high-earners flee to lower tax locations such as Ireland and Switzerland. He said that a reduction in tax relief on pension contributions for those earning over £150,000 would hit the self-employed and small businesses especially hard.

"Unfortunately, the Chancellor seems to have ignored the knowledge economy entirely," Mr Henderson told The Times.

"This has got to reduce the UK's attractiveness as a place to do the kind of business that requires highly-skilled and correspondingly highly-paid individuals, whether that is people choosing to go overseas or - the hidden cost - people who never come here at all."

Mr Darling told the Commons that the UK economy would contract by 3.5 per cent this year, making the current recession the worst since the Second World War. But he said that he expected economic growth to resume by the end of this year and to see growth next year of 1.25 per cent - more bullish than current market forecasts - lifted by the dynamism of the UK economy and burgeoning demand for high-tech exports.

He said that the UK economy contracted by 1.6 per cent in the last quarter of 2008 and would have declined by a similar amount in the first three months of this year.

"But because of our underlying strength, the measures we are taking, domestically and internationally, I expect to see growth resume towards the end of the year," he added.

"The IMF forecasts published today confirm the problems that all countries will face this year.

But they also show that the British economy will suffer less than Germany, less than Japan, less than Italy, and less than the euro area as a whole this year. The British economy is diverse, flexible and resilient - which is why we can be confident in recovery."

Mr Darling announced a £3 billion package of measures to help the jobless back into work and prevent those who lose their jobs becoming long-term unemployed. He also announced £1 billion in funding to help fight climate change, £2.5 billion to help businesses invest in high-technology jobs and £500 million to kickstart stalled housing projects.

He also announced a £750 million strategic investment fund, which he said would help to unblock as much as £50 billion in new business investment this year, including £10 billion in the communication sector. The Government will also contribute £300 million towards a "scrappage" scheme under which motorists can claim £2,000 towards a new car or van if they trade in a vehicle that is at least ten years old.

In other measures, petrol duty will increase by 2p per litre in September and then by 1p a litre above inflation each April for the next four years.

Alcohol duties will go up by two per cent - about 1p a pint - from midnight. Tobacco duty will rise by two per cent from 6pm - adding about 7p to a packet of 20 cigarettes. The Chancellor said these measures would raise more than £6 billion by 2012.

But scrutiny of the Budget, especially on the international capital markets, will focus on the depth of public borrowing and Britain's long-term ability to service and reduce national debt.

The Chancellor said that borrowing will start to fall from 2010 as the economy recovers.

Projected public sector borrowing next year would be £173 billion, equivalent to 11.9 per cent of GDP, falling to 9.1 per cent in in 2011-12, then 7.2 per cent and 5.5 per cent in 2013-14.

Mr Darling said national debt relative to GDP would increase from 59 per cent this year, to 68 per cent next, 74 per cent in 2011-12, 78 per cent and 79 per cent in 2013-14.

"It will stabilise and then begin to fall in 2015-16," he added. "In countries across the world, because of this economic crisis, it will take longer for deficits to come back into balance. Because of the steps we are taking, I expect the underlying current budget deficit to come back into balance two years later."

Mr Darling's upbeat prediction on growth contrasted with the latest economic statistics this morning, which showed unemployment reaching 2.1 million - its highest level since Labour came to power in 1997.

In his Budget reply, the Tory leader, David Cameron, assailed "Labour's decade of debt" and laid the blame firmly at the feet of Gordon Brown for failing to shore up the public finances during his years in the Treasury.

"This Prime Minister has certainly got himself in the history books - he's written a whole chapter in red ink," he said. "Britain simply cannot afford another five years of Labour."

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I have never seen a budget that had me all moist and this one was no different, the 50% on earnings over £150,000 is not by any stretch create a brain drain outside of the banks and hedge funds. How many of the brightest in manufacturing or R&D get paid over £150,000? If your running your own show there are many ways round paying top whack and George Osborne has actually said that the high earners will need to pay more after it was revealed that only 1 in 6 people earning over £10 million were paying 40% and the likes of Damon Buffini paying only 10% in 2007.

[Kilgor]

"But because of our underlying strength, the measures we are taking, domestically and internationally, I expect to see growth resume towards the end of the year," he added.

I would wager not.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

The Tories were not much of an oposition today they seemed much more like a bunch of students listening to lecture. They must be sh*tting themselves about the thought of winning the next election.

[Kilgor]

The Tories were not much of an oposition today they seemed much more like a bunch of students listening to lecture. They must be sh*tting themselves about the thought of winning the next election.

Who wants a poisoned chalice ?

Times like this, I would be glad to be in opposition.

[Flagg]

The Tories were not much of an oposition today they seemed much more like a bunch of students listening to lecture. They must be sh*tting themselves about the thought of winning the next election.

You'd have to be batsh!t crazy to WANT to run this well and truly broken machine.

The UK is broke......raising taxes isn't likely to fix it.....but NOT raising taxes isn't the answer either.

The majority of big financial/budget/tax decisions moving forward are likely going to be lose/lose for the foreseeable future.

[void]

I read somewhere that he tax increase will only put up tax revenue by 3 billion, whereas the shortfall is 157 billion... talk about a drop in the bucket.

[Flagg]

I read somewhere that he tax increase will only put up tax revenue by 3 billion, whereas the shortfall is 157 billion... talk about a drop in the bucket.

Two things have a high possibility of happening:

1.) Future budgets push up tax rates for those farther down the ladder...you always go after the rich first......not LAST.

2.) Inflation over a number of years will result in tax bracket creep......nominal wages may increase, REAL wages will not(and may even drop).....at the same time you get pushed into higher tax brackets...hit from both ends in cost of living and increased tax take from government.

This is just the first small bite of the sh!t sandwich...there's plenty more left for all to share.

[wildcat]

This is just the first small bite of the sh!t sandwich...there's plenty more left for all to share.
nice, but true.

Maybe they should cut spending, push for more self reliance and reduce the nanny state.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

nice, but true.

Maybe they should cut spending, push for more self reliance and reduce the nanny state.The last thing any of the two main parties is going to do is reduce their interference in our daily lives and with unemployment rising along with the cost of living along with the fall in value of many peoples personal equity I would say making us pay for education and healthcare would spark something of a row amongst the populace.

[Lazy Lob]

I have never seen a budget that had me all moist and this one was no different, the 50% on earnings over £150,000 is not by any stretch create a brain drain outside of the banks and hedge funds. How many of the brightest in manufacturing or R&D get paid over £150,000? If your running your own show there are many ways round paying top whack and George Osborne has actually said that the high earners will need to pay more after it was revealed that only 1 in 6 people earning over £10 million were paying 40% and the likes of Damon Buffini paying only 10% in 2007.

If it was only income tax on £150.000 and over I would agree. But the Brown/Darling partnership is just screwing around. They’ve made a complete balls up of the economy and things will get worse as companies such as Shire, United Business Media, WPP, Astra Zeneca, Diageo, Brit Insurance, Amlin, Smith & Nephew, International Power, ITV, Aegis, GlaxoSmithKline etc. have either moved abroad or are keeping their options “very” open.

Labour are looking at short term solutions just to win the next election and are just faffing about. They are destroying Britain’s industrial fabric as they look for coins behind the sofa.

And the dynamic duo won’t stop there. Retroactive taxation (the unfairest of all) as well as taxes on the middle and lower income earners are just around the corner. We are so broke that they need cash more than a hooker on crack, and they will make the country’s pips squeak.

[CMNot]

I felt almost sick watching yesterday, in a very real way. I've not been a big fan of Britain over the past 10 years. I've not enjoyed seeing the direction the country has taken. And not merely because most of the changes have been against my political beliefs.

This Government has brought my country to it's knees. Coupled with what is happening in SA...sad, sad times.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

If it was only income tax on £150.000 and over I would agree. But the Brown/Darling partnership is just screwing around. They’ve made a complete balls up of the economy and things will get worse as companies such as Shire, United Business Media, WPP, Astra Zeneca, Diageo, Brit Insurance, Amlin, Smith & Nephew, International Power, ITV, Aegis, GlaxoSmithKline etc. have either moved abroad or are keeping their options “very” open.

Labour are looking at short term solutions just to win the next election and are just faffing about. They are destroying Britain’s industrial fabric as they look for coins behind the sofa.

And the dynamic duo won’t stop there. Retroactive taxation (the unfairest of all) as well as taxes on the middle and lower income earners are just around the corner. We are so broke that they need cash more than a hooker on crack, and they will make the country’s pips squeak.The companies that you mention have moved their tax base abroad rather than jobs I can see logic in companies such WPP moving to Dublin where corparation tax is 12.5% rather than 28% here in the UK which is stiff but by no means the highest (WPP would pay 35% if based in the US) and they reduced it from 30% last year. Labour have not done enough to preserve industry in the UK but any incentives they could give industry to stay in the UK would need to be funded somehow and I think all of us are now sick of seeing big business being spoon fed. Britains industrial fabric is being destroyed by capital flight to countries with low manufacturing costs rather than corporate tax costs.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I felt almost sick watching yesterday, in a very real way. I've not been a big fan of Britain over the past 10 years. I've not enjoyed seeing the direction the country has taken. And not merely because most of the changes have been against my political beliefs.

This Government has brought my country to it's knees. Coupled with what is happening in SA...sad, sad times.Did you like it better when the Conservatives were in power? Maybe they gave you a different feeling of despair and hopelessness one which was much better than we have now, a truly British feeling of wretchedness.

[Britishhawk]

Did you like it better when the Conservatives were in power?

Anyone is better than Labour at the moment, I think even they are starting to realise that. :roll:

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Anyone is better than Labour at the moment, I think even they are starting to realise that. :roll:Yeah we can watch the Tories make an arse of things for a term or two I suppose it's a change of sorts.:)
John Major looked like he had been released from a hijacking when the Tories lost, that whole dazed but relieved look.

[Lazy Lob]

Labour have not done enough to preserve industry in the UK but any incentives they could give industry to stay in the UK would need to be funded somehow and I think all of us are now sick of seeing big business being spoon fed. Britains industrial fabric is being destroyed by capital flight to countries with low manufacturing costs rather than corporate tax costs.

Funded? How? Better to have the taxable base within the UK than having none at all re these companies. Now we're going to have to make up for that gaping black hole, forget funding or not, they're all buggering off and taking their taxes with them.

As for flight to countries with low manufacturing costs, what does it matter why they go? They've gone. They setup their corporate headquarters in a tax friendly nation and their manufacturing bases in low manufacturing cost nations. If Labour is being so bloody minded why should we care what these companies/individuals do once they've gone?



Anyone is better than Labour at the moment, I think even they are starting to realise that. :roll:

Conservatives have got their heads up their arses and if I were them I'd be whistling Dixie and looking the other way. Forget the others.

[CMNot]

Did you like it better when the Conservatives were in power? Maybe they gave you a different feeling of despair and hopelessness one which was much better than we have now, a truly British feeling of wretchedness.

Marginally yes. We almost had a good old fashioned Left/Right dichotomy.

Now we have nothing.

Actually, seeing as we are all now indebted to our wonderful, illustrious Government - we have something marginally worse than nothing.

I'm feeling particularly sorry for myself, I have two passports and both lead to something less than heaven rofl

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I have given up watching or listening to the news on TV or radio now or I just switch off when it gets to the economic bit because I just end up wanting to take a chainsaw to the Scottish cnuts that have fcuked this country up so badly.

Deep visceral loathing of all things 'socialist' and Labour doesn't even begin to describe it. TBH I wouldn't bat an eyelid if the whole lot of them were lined up against a wall and brassed up Ceaucescu style as punishment for their economic vandalism, outrageous stupidity, unwarranted arrogance and incompetence.

Every time the UK has had a Labour government they've fcuked up the finances big time. This time they truly have managed to do more damage to the UK than Hitler.

I'm going to stick it out here though. I've no desire to end up as one of those whiny gin soaked plastic Brit expats who spend all their time moaning about why they left Britain (but sneak back for treatment on the NHS at the taxpayers expense as soon as life in their foreign 'paradise' starts taking its toll on them).

[socom6]

Pfftt in Jamaica we are getting ready for major public disturbances tonight and tommorow after we hear how much the government are going to raise the gas tax among other taxes after declaring a wage freeze.

[Lazy Lob]

WTF are these mongs on? Bipolar twats.

Senior ministers have hinted that the 50p top rate of income may only be temporary as they fend off accusations of the death of New Labour.

Gordon Brown and senior members of his Cabinet moved to resuscitate the New Labour legacy today by insisting the Budget announcement of a 50p top rate of tax - the highest level for 30 years - was not a political or ideological gesture.

Lord Mandelson, who opposed Gordon Brown's attempts to get a 50p rate introduced when Tony Blair was Prime Minister, instead insisted it was a practical necessity born of exceptional economic circumstances.

"It's most certainly not the end of New Labour. We are not a high tax party. We don't tax for its own sake," the Business Secretary said.

RELATED LINKS
Majority support Darling's 'rich tax' plans
Fiscal Fidgets: Brown's Budget reactions
Poll: Has Darling gone a tax rise too far?
MULTIMEDIA
So how did you rate it?
BLOG: Darling helps Tories
Mr Darling also toured broadcasters to stress the new top rate would only apply during exceptional circumstances.

Saying he had a "duty" to reduce borrowing, the Chancellor said: "I have also had to go to those people who have earned the most over the past few years, people on over £150,000, and say 'you are going to have to contribute while we resolve this situation'."

When Labour last suggested a 50p top rate of tax, during the early nineties, it was proposed as part of a permanent realignment of the tax system designed to redistribute wealth.

Earlier, Mr Brown stressed that the tax rise for high earners in yesterday’s Budget was “not taxation for its own sake... it’s tax for a purpose”.

Meanwhile the Tories said that the Chancellor has indulged in “complete fantasy” rather than using his Budget to provide a plan for tackling the true scale of the recession.

George Osborne said it was a “tragedy” that Mr Darling had not been honest about the problems facing Britain’s economy or taken responsibility for mistakes that had led to it.

He told MPs that the central task of yesterday’s Budget statement should have been to provide confidence in the future but that Mr Darling had failed to do so.

Mr Osborne was particularly scathing about the Chancellor’s growth predictions, which envisage 1.25% of expansion for 2010 and 3.5% by 2011.

Economists and independent analysts had almost immediately rejected these as over-optimistic, Mr Osborne said, as had figures from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) released less than an hour after the Chancellor sat down.

Mr Osborne said: “We have this extraordinary situation where the Chancellor of the Exchequer stood there yesterday, announced the worst public finances ever heard in the House of Commons; told us we would be borrowing more in the next two years than all previous Chancellors have announced at that despatch box combined; said he would double the national debt, and yet he was guilty of being too optimistic.

“That is the scale of the mess this Government has created. And the tragedy of yesterday was that instead of being honest about that mess, instead of taking responsibility for the mistakes that have been made and giving us a credible plan to pull Britain through, we got that complete fantasy.”

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article6155378.ece

[CMNot]

"It's most certainly not the end of New Labour. We are not a high tax party. We don't tax for its own sake," the Business Secretary said.

rofl

Absolute gold dust.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

rofl

Absolute gold dust.


One wonders how a man in his position could possibly manage to say that with a straight face :roll:

[marktigger]

Given the fact that the Twats who did major damage to the economey were in the higher tax band I can see why its a popular move with the people in the run up to the next election. still the tories are now 18% ahead in the polls.
Historically Labour has screwed up the economey look at the 60's and 70's. The Bank bail out which should actually generate revenue will probably only generate losses for the government. By the end of Darlings plans National debt will be 80% of GDP If and its a Big If the international money markets lend him the money failing that then Nu Labour are rehabilitating the IMF for loans. Which they only said was there to support failed states. well this state has failed so the sooner regeime change comes the better.
But the Tories are going to be left with a very poisoned chalice the estimate on how long it will take to sort out is 23+years. Well Gordon Brown has earned his place in History as the man who Bankrupted Britain.
Would sugest the Armed forces shouldn't start looking forward to new equipment or pay rises for the forseeable future so if you aint got it already you ain't getting it.

[CMNot]

Given the fact that the Twats who did major damage to the economey were in the higher tax band I can see why its a popular move with the people in the run up to the next election. still the tories are now 18% ahead in the polls.
Historically Labour has screwed up the economey look at the 60's and 70's. The Bank bail out which should actually generate revenue will probably only generate losses for the government. By the end of Darlings plans National debt will be 80% of GDP If and its a Big If the international money markets lend him the money failing that then Nu Labour are rehabilitating the IMF for loans. Which they only said was there to support failed states. well this state has failed so the sooner regeime change comes the better.
But the Tories are going to be left with a very poisoned chalice the estimate on how long it will take to sort out is 23+years. Well Gordon Brown has earned his place in History as the man who Bankrupted Britain.
Would sugest the Armed forces shouldn't start looking forward to new equipment or pay rises for the forseeable future so if you aint got it already you ain't getting it.

50m is meant to be set aside in the budget for forces housing. We'll wait and see on that I think...although seeing as serving the debt per annum involves the same numbers as the entire schools budget (and not far off the defence budget) I take you point wholeheartedly. Hell they ****ed the squaddy in the boom, so **** knows what they will do during the bust. All that said, the squaddy is only going to get the same length of **** as the rest of us...

Two points of interest today. Darling and his mandarins were clearly lying on Wednesday vis-a-vis economic forecasting. Well I hope they were lying, else their sense of reality is even further off base than initially reported. I digress...the IFS has reported 1.9% contraction for the first quarter, Darling & Co. expect 3.5% over the year. This seems unlikely in the face of three consecutive quarters of contraction above and beyond what the Treasury forecast. The IMF has all but laughed at next years forecast (we'll stick the Treasury lies in the little box with Broons 'Boom & Bust/Saviour of the World and Bliars '15 minutes to DOOOOOOOM') for growth, so we can healthily assume that won't happen. Which will plunge the Darling's over egged policies into the hell they fully deserve.

Secondly UCAS reports record applications for University. Most prominent is the over-25 bracket, as people hope to weather out the recession getting a degree than being unemployed. I feel for these people, as a 27 year old entering their third year in Britain's central industrial wasteland, surviving off 4,500 p.a. (I chose to work and pay my way than take Government debt), it is an appalling time to enter university. The casual labour essential to survival as a student is just not available. Another time bomb legacy for our nation. As a footnote, I wish I was studying any of the economics I am doing, makes it all a little more depressing, although at least for the first time I'm not sat around wondering about the relevance of study rofl

I would feel far happier if our representative parties actually followed the ideologies their party names suggest. As it is, we're ****ed if we do and ****ed if we don't for the next half of my lifetime p-)

On a lighter and more cheerful note, I had a dole mong talking to me at work the other day about how all of this was Thatcher's fault for shutting t' pits :hug:rofl

[marktigger]

yeap giving £50M to a private housing company that manages the MoD housing stock they'll probably use the money to refurbish houses in London so they can be rented to MP's who can't afford to live in the capital. Or to refurbish the quarter patches of bases the Govt will close in the next rounds of defence cuts so the private company can sell them at huge profit.

[PUG]

How about that Nick Clegg eh? Eh?... Maybe not.

[oldsoak]

All those with 150k pa stick their hands up.
Let 'em go abroad, fekm. As if they'd get jobs abroad right now.

Thatcher wanted a service industry because it offered the most return for the smallest investment and it created a particular class in society. Industry came with too many awkward things like workers, long term investment etc.

[CMNot]

Thatcher wanted a service industry because it offered the most return for the smallest investment and it created a particular class in society. Industry came with too many awkward things like workers, long term investment etc.

British industry has been sliding since the swift acceleration of US output in the late 19thC and post-German unification output from c1885 onwards. We where once the masters of industry, but then we had a few distinct advantages; initially the first to industrialise, strong capital funding and gifted engineers and - most importantly - markets we could force goods onto (as an aside, all of this benefitted a certain class in society to the extreme detriment of others). We have a service based economy because it is the next logical step, as industrialisation is the logical step from agrarian economies etc. etc. Britain has produced slip-shod industrial products for a good half century; the fields we excel in are limited but well funded and high tech. To maintain these you need excellent, excellent minds, which tend to command healthy financial rewards. Which is fair. Toss up the Bay Area or Banbury, and it may take some wheel greasing to entice the individual. Having worked self-employed under this Government, I am fairly confident however that their legislation is it's usual leaky, creaky self, with enough holes in for accountants to push their salaries up into the 150k p.a. bracket.

That the party of the 'working man' will saddle the working man with the burden is at once a delicious and disgusting irony.

[oldsoak]

Hmm. Not so sure - what stopped us from emulating the US and Germans ?
I suspect they had longer investment-to-return cycles than the UK. Keeping in the fore front of any industry requires steady, continous investment. In the 1940's US engineers were amazed at how antiquated some of our "hi-tech" industries were ( Rolls Royce engines, Spitfire production etc ). Ten years later, they were still amazed with the Canberra B57. Twenty years later, they were still amazed with the Harrier AV8A.
Ditto the Japanese with our car industry when Honda came to look at Rover. Somewhere along the line, we went for the quick win based on capital which could be rapidly switched around, rather than tied into a project or programme.

[CMNot]

Hmm. Not so sure - what stopped us from emulating the US and Germans ?

Well, the Americans have practiced fierce protectionist economic policies numerous times over the decades - ignore all the 'free trade' **** wash that comes out. Think Gordon Brown standing against protectionism on Tuesday and yapping 'British job for British workers' on the Wednesday. It's not a criticism, most politicians would appear to say one thing and do another. But then they are [fill this blank].



I suspect they had longer investment-to-return cycles than the UK. Keeping in the fore front of any industry requires steady, continous investment. In the 1940's US engineers were amazed at how antiquated some of our "hi-tech" industries were ( Rolls Royce engines, Spitfire production etc ). Ten years later, they were still amazed with the Canberra B57. Twenty years later, they were still amazed with the Harrier AV8A.

Yes, exactly. Sustained investment. But they also benefit from international exchange rates, bear in mind, most of the time. Manufacturing and industry in general in Britain has been crippling expensive for a long, long time. Hence why I completely agree with shutting coal mines (irony of irony, we're going back to coal fired power stations lol) and steel mines etc.; it was simply unsustainable, we're still struggling now to honour and facilitate the old public sectors benefit packages. With the bloated size of our current state sector - regardless of the destruction of final salary pension schemes - we must wonder at how we will afford these pension packages in 30-40 years time.



Ditto the Japanese with our car industry when Honda came to look at Rover. Somewhere along the line, we went for the quick win based on capital which could be rapidly switched around, rather than tied into a project or programme.

The Japs also did a very similar thing with - iirc - Norton or Triumph in the 50s/60s (sorry for clarity, hazy on the details here). Honda turned up at the TT, where no-one knew them, chucking their lot in, asking questions, drawing pictures etc (they had no hardware) then within years returned and have been winning ever since. We have always had brilliant engineers in mechanical fields - aerospace (as you stated Harrier, plus TSR2, V-bombers etc. etc.), automotive, rail etc. But the one thing they didn't take with them was our business models. Hence why Rover is dead (:| I live 40 miles from Coventry, used to work in industrial automation, smashed us all) and Honda/Toyota etc. aren't.

Plus, with regards to Japan and Germany, they also had other important, idiosycantric benefits. They both escaped the war in a "better" way than us. Yes they were destroyed, hell Germany was split in two. But they started rebuilding with nothing; we started with incomprehensible debt. If it wasn't for the Marshall Plan **** only knows what would have happened to our parents/grand-parents :|.

Plus German industry benefitted from phenomenal engineering (they really are excellent in so many fields; continuing the war theme compare the post-war longevitiy of Siemens and Avro :-(). But more so the EU. German industry is all but protected by the EU, in ways similar to French agriculture. Plus they have the benefit of the single currency. Neither British industry nor agriculture receives either these benefits to anything approaching the same level (single currency/EU protection). Partly due to messy and partisan inception of the EU and partly Sterling.

As a last word on the Japanese, they are not weathering recession much better than us. There too public finances are in a desperate, desperate state and it remains to be seen if I'll have to reword the portion above relating to Japan sometime over the next 10 years.

It's also worth keeping in mind that Japan and Germany - well, 99% of other nations truth be told - have not focused so heavily on finance.

[Lazy Lob]

You're a dark horse CMN.

[marktigger]

Oldsoak what finally did for British industry was Labours mates in the Trades Unions. Do you remember the 70's at all wildcat strikes to protect restrictive working practices almost anarchy when industry wanted to modernise. British industry produced alot of absolute rubbish as the owners of many BL cars will tell you.
I would agree the state sector has become bloated I work in the NHS as a front line healthcare provider we in the last 12 months have treated 12.5% more patients than the previous year in the hospital I work at yet the productivity per person of the orginisation has fallen in the same period.
My wage rise this year for the first time in my memory will be paid in full from April and will miracously be over the rate of inflation. Since I joined the NHS my salary has fallen in real terms as our pay rises were below inflation so for the last 5 years I had a year on year pay cut. Govt policy to keep inflation under control was to restrict public sector pay rises to below inflation then it was agree'd we would have a 3 year deal agreed when real inflation was running at 5% that would give us 7.5% over 3 years all rises still well below the Govts projected inflation figures for this period. Now the economey has gone pear its all our fault!

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Since I joined the NHS my salary has fallen in real terms as our pay rises were below inflation so for the last 5 years I had a year on year pay cut. Govt policy to keep inflation under control was to restrict public sector pay rises to below inflation then it was agree'd we would have a 3 year deal agreed when real inflation was running at 5% that would give us 7.5% over 3 years all rises still well below the Govts projected inflation figures for this period. Now the economey has gone pear its all our fault!

Try being self employed - no luxury of even below inflation pay rises and NuLabour screwing you ever harder each year for more tax to support their bloated statist salariat and dependent dolies. :roll:

[Lazy Lob]

Try being self employed - no luxury of even below inflation pay rises and NuLabour screwing you ever harder each year for more tax to support their bloated statist salariat and dependent dolies. :roll:

..........and subsidised ****.

[CMNot]

as a front line healthcare provider

What on God's green earth is one of them? It's not a dig, but sounds typical of our current time. My girlfriend describes herself as a hair designer. Which is a hair dresser to you and I. I'm a Beverage Dispenser, or in old money, and effin barman.[/QUOTE]


Now the economey has gone pear its all our fault!

I wouldn't say you are to blame per se. Government policy is firmly, firmly to blame. Swelling the 'Soviet' state will be a hallmark of Blairite thought in years to come. The fundamental problem with any state sector is the lack of competition and accountability. You have to wonder how many private entities who ran some schools and hospitals in the slipshod manner of Labours mandarins would survive on their own merits...?

[marktigger]

Frontline healtcare provider: someone who actually provides healthcare and has real patient contact. won't use the term nurse as many of my managers are nurses (Or former nurses as they should really be described) who have little or no contact with patients. Same is true in physiothearpy, occupational thearpy, Medicine. they move to a managerial role but still want to be associated with front line care.

I agree totally with the bloating of the state. We have the case for another staff nurse post to give us enough numbers to look after the higher dependencey patients we're getting but there is no funding available however there is funding for an assistant manager!
I would dread to see education and healthcare being run by private entities as then it would depend on how much the parent or patient could or would pay to receive education/treatment. However I do agree totally that there is no real accountibility. And actually the free market NHS created by the Tories actually made things worse as money was wasted creating corporate identities and setting up individual Management and administrations for the newly independant trusts our area has 2 trusts covering roughly the same geographic area 1 the Primary care trusts looks after GP's and care outside the hospital the other the Hospital trust looks after hospital based care. Both have full management teams, finance offices, procurement departments, personnell departments etc etc all duplicating what the other is doing why? Then social care is the responsibility of the local council! The Idea of competing trusts only works inside the M25 as there is so many hospitals that they can have real compition as the next hospital is 5 miles down the road ours is 40 miles down the road