China moves to stamp out unique names

[Ordie]

China moves to stamp out unique names

Sharon Lafraniere, New York Times
Sunday, April 26, 2009

(04-26) 04:00 PDT Beijing -- "Ma," a Chinese character for horse, is the 13th-most-common family name in China, shared by nearly 17 million people. That can cause no end of confusion when Mas get together, especially if those Mas also share the same given name, as many Chinese do.
Ma Cheng's book-loving grandfather came up with an elegant solution to this common problem. Twenty-six years ago, when his granddaughter was born, he combed through his library of Chinese dictionaries and lighted upon a character ****ounced "cheng." Cheng, which means galloping steeds, looks just like the character for horse, except that it is condensed and written three times in a row.
The character is so rare that once people see it, Ma Cheng said, they tend to remember both her and her name. That is one reason she likes it so much.
That is also why the government wants her to change it.
For Ma Cheng and millions of others, Chinese parents' desire to give their children a spark of individuality is colliding head-on with the Chinese bureaucracy's desire for order. Seeking to modernize its vast database on China's 1.3 billion citizens, the government's Public Security Bureau has been replacing the handwritten identity card that every Chinese must carry with a computer-readable one, complete with color photos and embedded microchips. The new cards are harder to forge and can be scanned at places like airports where security is a priority.
The bureau's computers, however, are programmed to read only 32,252 of the roughly 55,000 Chinese characters, according to a 2006 government report. The result is that Ma and at least some of the 60 million other Chinese with obscure characters in their names cannot get new cards - unless they change their names to something more common.
Moreover, the situation is about to get worse or, in the government's view, better. Since at least 2003, China has been working on a standardized list of characters for people to use in everyday life, including when naming children.
One newspaper reported last week that the list would be issued later this year and would curb the use of obscure names. A government linguistics official told Xinhua, the state-run news agency, that the list would include more than 8,000 characters. Although that is far fewer than the database now supposedly includes, the official said it was more than enough "to convey any concept in any field." About 3,500 characters are in everyday use.
Government officials suggest that names have gotten out of hand, with too many parents picking the most obscure characters they can find or even making up characters, like linguistic fashion accessories.
But many Chinese couples take pride in searching the rich archives of classical Chinese to find a distinctive, pleasing name, partly to help their children stand out in a society with strikingly few surnames.
By some estimates, 100 surnames cover 85 percent of China's citizens. Laobaixing, or "old hundred names," is a colloquial term for the masses. By contrast, 70,000 surnames cover 90 percent of Americans.


The number of Chinese family names in use has tended to shrink as China's population has grown, a winnowing of surnames that has occurred in many cultures over time.
At last count, China's Wangs were leading with more than 92 million, followed by 91 million Lis and 86 million Zhangs. To refer to an unidentified person - the equivalent of "just anybody" in English - one Chinese saying can be loosely translated this way: "some Zhang, some Li."
The potential for mix-ups is vast. There are nearly enough Chinese named Zhang Wei to populate the city of Pittsburgh. Nicknames are liberally bestowed in classrooms and workplaces to tell people apart. Confronting three students named Liu Fang, for example, one middle-school teacher nicknamed them Big, Little and Middle.
Wang Daliang, a linguistics scholar with the China Youth University for Political Science, said picking rare characters for first names only compounds the problem and inconveniences everyone. "Using obscure names to avoid duplication of names or to be unique is not good," he wrote in an e-mail response to questions.
"Now a lot of people are perplexed by their names," he said. "The computer cannot even recognize them and people cannot read them. This has become an obstacle in communication."
But Professor Zhou Youyong, dean of Southeast University's law school, said the government should tread carefully in issuing any new regulation. "The right to name children is a basic right of citizens," he said.

Ma said that while her first name is unusual, bank employees, passport control clerks and ticket agents have always managed to deal with it, usually by handwriting it. But when she tried to renew her identity card last August, she said, Beijing public security officials turned her down flat. "Your name is so troublesome and problematic," she recalled an official telling her. "Just change it."
Ma argues that the government's technology should adapt, not her.
"There were no such regulations when I was born so I should be entitled to keep my name for my whole life," she said. If she changes her name to get an identity card, she noted, it will be wrong on all her other documents, like her passport and university diploma.
Besides, she said, "I can't think of another, better name."
Using the time-honored Chinese method of back door connections, Ma managed in January to get a temporary card. She must renew it every three months but considers that a small sacrifice for keeping her name.


Zhao C., a 23-year-old college student, gave up the fight for his. His father, a lawyer, chose the letter C from the English alphabet, saying it was simple, memorable and stood for China.
When he could not get a new identity card in 2006, Zhao C. sued. But security officials convinced him that it would cost millions of dollars to alter the database, his father said, so he dropped the suit in February.
His case might suggest that resistance against China's powerful bureaucracy was futile. Still, the government's plan to limit the use of characters has not gone all that smoothly.
The new rules were originally supposed to be issued by 2005. Now, 70 revisions later, they have yet to be put in place.
An official this week batted away questions, saying publicity might delay the rules even longer.


Source:http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/04/26/MNSI1761N8.DTL&type=printable

[ADI82]

You know... as much as im for individuality and freedom in naming your children, if you look at some people here in North America, that kinda backfires when they give their kids really f***ing retarded names.

If they have thousands of names to choose from, I dont see much of a problem with this kind of system. At least it guarentees the children will have respectable names.

[zonk]

you know that just sounds retarded.....i think that folks should have the right to name their kids anything they want even if it is *** guzzler or some bat **** crazy name.

who are you to decide what a respectable name is? are you the kids parents? do you pick the name? no its their kid. and why would a name make the person be any less respectable, let the persons actions and work ethic do the talking..a name is just a name ffs

[Roy Batty]

Easy Zonk. He's probably just pissed because his parents named him Starshine Moonbeam.......lol

[Chulo]

you know that just sounds retarded.....i think that folks should have the right to name their kids anything they want even if it is *** guzzler or some bat **** crazy name.

who are you to decide what a respectable name is? are you the kids parents? do you pick the name? no its their kid. and why would a name make the person be any less respectable, let the persons actions and work ethic do the talking..a name is just a name ffs
true..


i had a teacher named Ben Choute once..

ask a hindi speaker what that means..whats respectable in NZ is not in India..

[Basillicus]

What I think they should do is modernize their character system.

Also, I don't get why they use same names so much. There are some chinese people working in the same company where I'm working, and I once noticed when I was sending email to one of them that there are something like 14 guys with the exact same name! Took a while to find the right person.

[zonk]

Easy Zonk. He's probably just pissed because his parents named him Starshine Moonbeam.......lol

sorry, guess i went a bit overboard. I just think a person should not be be judged respectable by the name they are given, hell one of my friends is named "gonzo" for pete's sake. Just cause you have a name that goes against the grain it does not mean that you should be viewed any differently for this.

a song by johnny cash comes to mind....if you know it great, if not it is worth checking out.

[Roy Batty]

Maybe we should just number them.......

[dredger14]

true..


i had a teacher named Ben Choute once..

ask a hindi speaker what that means..whats respectable in NZ is not in India..

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!roflroflroflrofl


sister f****r.......p-)

[zonk]

You know... as much as im for individuality and freedom in naming your children, if you look at some people here in North America, that kinda backfires when they give their kids really f***ing retarded names.

If they have thousands of names to choose from, I dont see much of a problem with this kind of system. At least it guarantees the children will have respectable names.

that is still stupid, and once again who are they to say what a respectable name is.......

If the kid does not like their name, they can change it that is their right, just as it is the parents right to name their kids what they want. I think I know of the case you are talking of where the guy named his kids after arien nation/nazi folks...those kids were given their name by their parents, it was the parents right to name them that, even if it iwas in bad taste...just because the kids had abnormal names it doesn't mean they were going to grow up as twisted as their father is. hell i would have done a birthday cake for them, because it is not right to subject the kid to that sort of discrimination because the parents did named them that. As a parent i knew i could name my kids what I wanted to, and I wasn't going to let anyone stand in my way as far as that goes.

[Ordie]

What I think they should do is modernize their character system.

Also, I don't get why they use same names so much. There are some chinese people working in the same company where I'm working, and I once noticed when I was sending email to one of them that there are something like 14 guys with the exact same name! Took a while to find the right person.
The PRC simplified traditional Chinese characters as a means to promote literacy after 1949.

There are two issues:

1) China is very competative for jobs and recognition. Any angle to stand out is to a persons benefit.

2) It shows the limiting attributes of a character based means of communication vs. Alphabet.

Instead of limiting names due to it's inability to retain a database, perhaps the chinese should be innovative and create the technology to fix it.

[Shuimo]

The PRC simplified traditional Chinese characters as a means to promote literacy after 1949.

There are two issues:

1) China is very competative for jobs and recognition. Any angle to stand out is to a persons benefit.

2) It shows the limiting attributes of a character based means of communication vs. Alphabet.

Instead of limiting names due to it's inability to retain a database, perhaps the chinese should be innovative and create the technology to fix it.
That is reasonable!
but I also don't quite understand the psyche of these who are determined to use very odd characters too give names to their children!

[Shuimo]

What I think they should do is modernize their character system.

Also, I don't get why they use same names so much. There are some chinese people working in the same company where I'm working, and I once noticed when I was sending email to one of them that there are something like 14 guys with the exact same name! Took a while to find the right person.
if u use yinpin, that is possible!
Remember Chinese is a tonal language!

[Shuimo]

You know... as much as im for individuality and freedom in naming your children, if you look at some people here in North America, that kinda backfires when they give their kids really f***ing retarded names.

If they have thousands of names to choose from, I dont see much of a problem with this kind of system. At least it guarentees the children will have respectable names.

I agree!rofl

[zonk]

That is reasonable!
but I also don't quite understand the psyche of these who are determined to use very odd characters too give names to their children!


individuality and a free mind....it's not that hard to understand.

there are going to be certain people who do not want a copied name for their kids, so they try originality,and a little creativeness to give their kids a little originality. originality can go a long way....people get tired of the same old same old.

[IraGlacialis]

individuality and a free mind....it's not that hard to understand.
Actually, it can be for people who live in a nation with extreme government intervention (for better or worse) and a huge cultural emphasis on community vs individuality.
If you live in that kind of environment and not any other, it would be hard to imagine how such freedoms like in the First Amendment would be beneficial. In fact, they could be seen as promoting chaos and anarchy.

I am not being degrading or anything towards the Chinese; just stating an observation.

[zonk]

good point

one of the reasons I am glad to live in and serve the USA

[ADI82]

The case I was thinking of in specific Zonk was "Moon Unit Zappa".

If any child wanted to change their own name later, its to late. Because by the time they legaly can, they will already be known by a name they probly wont appreciate. Do you actualy believe a kid wants a rediculous name?

If im reading this right in the article, there are 32,000 names to choose from... seems to me that Chinese parents arent being "forced" to name their kids a specific name as much as just not allowed to choose the few that are so uncommon.

I still dont see why its a problem.

[Shuimo]

individuality and a free mind....it's not that hard to understand.

there are going to be certain people who do not want a copied name for their kids, so they try originality,and a little creativeness to give their kids a little originality. originality can go a long way....people get tired of the same old same old.
Chinese characters are creative enough for naming with commonly used
charACTERS!

[Ordie]

Chinese characters are creative enough for naming with commonly used
charACTERS!

Why did they create uncommon characters in the first place?

It's crap like telling you what you can or cannot be named that people questions the legitimacy of the CCP to govern.

[Chulo]

Why did they create uncommon characters in the first place?
why do they have 8000 or so characters anyway? :P

[Ordie]

why do they have 8000 or so characters anyway? :P

I don't know?

But I could imagine the text messaging nightmare. I would not be surprised if the Chinese had 'canned' or 'stored' messages and responses while texting.

[dave81]

Ma Cheng's book-loving grandfather came up with an elegant solution to this common problem. Twenty-six years ago, when his granddaughter was born, he combed through his library of Chinese dictionaries and lighted upon a character ****ounced "cheng." Cheng, which means galloping steeds, looks just like the character for horse, except that it is condensed and written three times in a row.
The character is so rare that once people see it, Ma Cheng said, they tend to remember both her and her name.
If you've never seen it before, how the f ck do you know how it's ****ounced?

Like that scene in Jet Li's "Hero", where the character "discovers" a "new way" to write the word "sword" -- how the f ck does that language work?!?!

[Solvent]

Why did they create uncommon characters in the first place?

It's crap like telling you what you can or cannot be named that people questions the legitimacy of the CCP to govern.

Most of them were used in ancient time. They are almost never used right now. Very few people know how to write and ****ounce them.

[hskywalker]

If you've never seen it before, how the f ck do you know how it's ****ounced?

Like that scene in Jet Li's "Hero", where the character "discovers" a "new way" to write the word "sword" -- how the f ck does that language work?!?!
The original form of the word "horse" looks like a real horse, and very complicated to write(to draw). Though history, it evolved, became simpler. There is about 5 different ways to write the word "horse", all popular used in different times. The lastest change is made from "traditional chinese" to "simplified chinese" by PRC. But the "traditional chinese" is also simplified from earlier more difficult writing ways.

Think about the word "colour" to "color".

The movie "Hero" discribes a special time, that emperor is a very radical idealist. Probably the most radical ruler in China's history.

[zonk]

The case I was thinking of in specific Zonk was "Moon Unit Zappa".

If any child wanted to change their own name later, its to late. Because by the time they legaly can, they will already be known by a name they probly wont appreciate. Do you actualy believe a kid wants a rediculous name?

If im reading this right in the article, there are 32,000 names to choose from... seems to me that Chinese parents arent being "forced" to name their kids a specific name as much as just not allowed to choose the few that are so uncommon.

I still dont see why its a problem.

they are just being forced to change their names because the chinese government is being retarded and not wanting to put the extra effort in to creating a larger database of uncommon names...

second: they are still putting a list of names out, unacceptable regardless of how many names are offered. what if the us said, ok you cannot name your kids anything but these names right here because these are the only acceptable names deemed appropriate by the government, we could add these other less common names but we aren't going to because we just don't feel like it....i'd bet you would get pissed, lord knows I would.
do i believe the kid wants a rediculous name...idk ask one with one and see if they know any different...how do you know something if you have never experienced it..same as color vision if you have never had it any different how do you know it is wrong.

[Solvent]

The time period of "Hero" is before Chin Dynasty. There were several Kingdoms coexisting at the same time. What the man in "Hero" was writing is different characters with same meaning, which were using in different kingdoms. One thing that happened in Chin Dynasty was unify the language.

The trend in general for the language is from diversity to unification, from complex to simple.

[ADI82]

Zonk if the only unallowed names where ones only a retard would name their kids anyways it wouldnt matter to me. Read my post above... "Moon Unit Zappa"? Youve gotta do a lot of acid to think thats a good name for a kid.

I think the comments of the Chinese members here make a lot of sense as to why they would do this.

Now im curious what number of people share the most common names in the United States. I may just have to do some research here.

[Ordie]

Most of them were used in ancient time. They are almost never used right now. Very few people know how to write and ****ounce them.

Perhaps this is a good thing.

What is so wrong about common Chinese re-discovering thier traditions and history through creating unique names with traditional characters.

Unlike the PRC, Taiwan still retains, educates and use the traditional characters as the norm. If Taiwan could function with a more complex traditional characters, there should be no excuse for the PRC.

[Jaegermeister + Red Bull]

Perhaps this is a good thing.

What is so wrong about common Chinese re-discovering thier traditions and history through creating unique names with traditional characters.

Unlike the PRC, Taiwan still retains, educates and use the traditional characters as the norm. If Taiwan could function with a more complex traditional characters, there should be no excuse for the PRC.

Actually naming is quite important in China, in ancient times most educated and ruling class had two names, a functional name and a private name.

All emperors in China used 2 names, one by everyone and one by only the closest of the emperors relatives/friends. Use of the private name (the mere utterance of it) by others is punished by death.

The common peasant had only one name, and its usually the only 2 words they ever learn to recognise.

In educated circles and the ruling class, names are usually taken from songs or poem. The most commonly used poem is the 4x4 character poems, giving a 16 generation use for one poem. When the last name is used, a new poem is commissioned by the house and the cycle renews.

As for individuality, there are fairly strict rules in naming your scions...

Let say for example in a poem written for the Ma family, the four words in one of the lines are: A B C D (I am trying to dumb this down for mass consumption)...

So if let say Ma-A has children, they all are named Ma-B-?, that is they all have their middle name the same, identifying them as the sons/daughter of Ma-A. The ? is their individual unique name, it has to be different from their siblings. If Ma-A has only one child he can choose to only name him/her Ma-B-? or just Ma-B. Naming his son/daughter Ma-A jnr is a huge taboo and a big NO.

The son is not a shadow of his father, and the student isn't a imitation of his teacher. That is the believe behind this convention.

Its dead easy to find out which generation of the family you are talking to and/or about one you aquaint with their names...and makes looking up family tree as easy as your A B Cs.

The problem is not the names, but that surnames are limited due to historical lineage and tradesmen craft. Someone surnamed Ma (horse) very likely had a military background, or a herdsman. Someone surnamed Gu (old, ancient) very likely was a court official, or learned person.

One again another western news FAIL the mark and goes for the WOW sensationalist factor.

About your remark regarding Taiwan I will address separately.

[Ordie]

So if let say Ma-A has children, they all are named Ma-B-?, that is they all have their middle name the same, identifying them as the sons/daughter of Ma-A. The ? is their individual unique name, it has to be different from their siblings. If Ma-A has only one child he can choose to only name him/her Ma-B-? or just Ma-B. Naming his son/daughter Ma-A jnr is a huge taboo and a big NO.

It seems that the Chinese are obsessed with ranking including naming rights.

I thought a person with the surname "Ma" or "Hui" denotes Muslim background? I've known many local Chinese here in San Francisco with unique surnames of "Leung", "Teo" "Lau" "Dien" and "Der". Some even have fake names derived from the days of the Chinese Exculsion Act where new arrivals pretended to be a kin of a local sponsor.

[Shuimo]

Perhaps this is a good thing.

What is so wrong about common Chinese re-discovering thier traditions and history through creating unique names with traditional characters.

Unlike the PRC, Taiwan still retains, educates and use the traditional characters as the norm. If Taiwan could function with a more complex traditional characters, there should be no excuse for the PRC.

that is a compelling argument, ordie!:-*$

[Hot Lips]

Gee why not just name everyone Borg and issue them numbers instead. :roll: Sorry if that is insensitive, but surely there are far more important issues that need to be addressed.

Why can't the technology accommodate all the characters?

[Solvent]

Perhaps this is a good thing.

What is so wrong about common Chinese re-discovering thier traditions and history through creating unique names with traditional characters.

Unlike the PRC, Taiwan still retains, educates and use the traditional characters as the norm. If Taiwan could function with a more complex traditional characters, there should be no excuse for the PRC.

You got me wrong here. The difference between of traditional characters and simplified characters is only the way to write them.The meaning and ****ounce are still same. In the other words, if there is one character in traditional characters, you can find one to match it in simplified character.

What I said previously is uncommon characters which is not using nowadays, even in Taiwan. Actually, I tried to find a couple of examples I know for you, but I couldn't type them in because there is no such character in my Chinese input software.

[Ordie]

Actually, I tried to find a couple of examples I know for you, but I couldn't type them in because there is no such character in my Chinese input software.

Why not develop a more sophisticated software?

[Solvent]

Why not develop a more sophisticated software?

I think it is cost/output issue. In China's long history, there are so many characters are not being used anymore. And those characters are not taught even in schools and can't be seen in daily livings. If people don't know how to write it or ****ounce those characters, including them in software is meaningless. I experienced one case, in my local police station, an office tried to type one boy's name in system, there was one character nobody around had ever seen it. In order to know how to ****ounce it, the office had to get a dictionary. And guess what, the character even couldn't be found in ordinary dictionary. I didn't know how they took care it later.

[Bringer of Greater Things]

Talk about government control...
People should have the right to name their kids whatever they want. If a small minority choose a crazy name, that is the price you pay for freedom. And some of those "crazy" names end up being pretty common within a few years.
For instance, the name Wendy was made up for Peter Pan.
I've known hundreds of Matthews, Michaels, Brians, and Johns. I don't see anything wrong with coming up with something creative. And I feel the Chinese should have that same freedom.



Unless they name their kids "Aiden." I hate that name.

[Ordie]

I think it is cost/output issue. In China's long history, there are so many characters are not being used anymore. And those characters are not taught even in schools and can't be seen in daily livings. If people don't know how to write it or ****ounce those characters, including them in software is meaningless. I experienced one case, in my local police station, an office tried to type one boy's name in system, there was one character nobody around had ever seen it. In order to know how to ****ounce it, the office had to get a dictionary. And guess what, the character even couldn't be found in ordinary dictionary. I didn't know how they took care it later.

Why not do what the Vietnamese, Turks, Malays, Indonesians, and Filipinos did and adopt the Roman Alphabet.

[Solvent]

For instance, the name Wendy was made up for Peter Pan.


Really? it's nice to know.

[Solvent]

Why not do what the Vietnamese, Turks, Malays, Indonesians, and Filipinos did and adopt the Roman Alphabet.

This is culture thing. Chinese culture is closely associated with the language. Although I admit that the language was not designed for modern society, without it, I doubt Chinese culture will be the same.

[Kadrun]

jeez, i must love and respect my language

[Ordie]

This is culture thing. Chinese culture is closely associated with the language. Although I admit that the language was not designed for modern society, without it, I doubt Chinese culture will be the same.

I don't think so. If the Vietnamese are able to retain its culture by adopting the Roman Alphabet so can the Chinese.

Besides, the CCP had already butchered the centuries old traditional characters, adopting the Roman characters should not be a problems since most of the signage today is in Pingyin (Romantization system of Chinese)

[Solvent]

I don't think so. If the Vietnamese are able to retain its culture by adopting the Roman Alphabet so can the Chinese.

Besides, the CCP had already butchered the centuries old traditional characters, adopting the Roman characters should not be a problems since most of the signage today is in Pingyin (Romantization system of Chinese)

I don't know about Vietnamese. All our history is documented with the language, if we change it. I am afraid that only after a couple of generations, we will not be able to read and understand the history any more. The language is big part of our lives, we like the way it is. We have been using it for thousands of years and we will certainly use it in the future.

Pingyin is only to help your ****unciations. It's very hard to understand only with Pingyin itself. I don't think it will replace characters.

[Ordie]

I am afraid that only after a couple of generations, we will not be able to read and understand the history any more.

Thanks to the simplification The majority of mainland Chinese cannot read traditional Ming/Qing Dynasty period characters anyway.

Given the incresed numbers of mainland tourist to Taiwan, I wonder how difficult is it for them to read signs and menus.

[hskywalker]

Talk about government control...
People should have the right to name their kids whatever they want. If a small minority choose a crazy name, that is the price you pay for freedom. And some of those "crazy" names end up being pretty common within a few years.
For instance, the name Wendy was made up for Peter Pan.
I've known hundreds of Matthews, Michaels, Brians, and Johns. I don't see anything wrong with coming up with something creative. And I feel the Chinese should have that same freedom.



Unless they name their kids "Aiden." I hate that name.
You can create the name "Wendy", but you can't use the name"Wen#dy", you can only choose from 26 letters, "Wen#dy" is not english anymore.

The current issue is not about old characters which are seldom used, it is about some names contains characters which have never existed, some parents create it from nowhere. Just like the name "Wen#dy". "#" is not english letter.

For example, there is currently a very retarded writing style popular between "after-90s-non-mainstream"(something like hippies) with all kinds of new characters, we call it "braindead style". I can read it, but I got angry most time I saw it. People should not have the rights to create new characters.

[hskywalker]

Thanks to the simplification The majority of mainland Chinese cannot read traditional Ming/Qing Dynasty period characters anyway.

Given the incresed numbers of mainland tourist to Taiwan, I wonder how difficult is it for them to read signs and menus.
All mainland chinese can read traditional chinese.

[Ordie]

All mainland chinese can read traditional chinese.


It's like saying, I could read Turkish, but I don't know what it means, even though they use the Roman Alphabet.

[Solvent]

Thanks to the simplification The majority of mainland Chinese cannot read traditional Ming/Qing Dynasty period characters anyway.

Given the incresed numbers of mainland tourist to Taiwan, I wonder how difficult is it for them to read signs and menus.

Are you kidding? What make you assume we can not read traditional characters?

[Ordie]

Are you kidding? What make you assume we can not read traditional characters?

You said it yourself.


in my local police station, an office tried to type one boy's name in system, there was one character nobody around had ever seen it. In order to know how to ****ounce it, the office had to get a dictionary. And guess what, the character even couldn't be found in ordinary dictionary. I didn't know how they took care it later.

[Solvent]

It's like saying, I could read Turkish, but I don't know what it means, even though they use the Roman Alphabet.

For your language, for example English, you can read when you see new words, or at least, ****ounce them without knowing the meanings. But for Chinese, when you see new characters, most likely you can not ****ounce it at all. In order to read it, you have to get more information to know the ****unciation and meaning first. So, when we talk about read Chinese, not just know to ****ounce, but also know the meaning.

[Solvent]

You said it yourself.

I believe I already explained to you. Traditional characters are not uncommon characters. Uncommon characters are those not being used both in traditional and simplified.

[Shuimo]

Why not do what the Vietnamese, Turks, Malays, Indonesians, and Filipinos did and adopt the Roman Alphabet.

OH, it is just a dream of some folks!

Chinese is Chinese people's greatest treasure!

[TheMiddlePath]

I don't think so. If the Vietnamese are able to retain its culture by adopting the Roman Alphabet so can the Chinese.

Besides, the CCP had already butchered the centuries old traditional characters, adopting the Roman characters should not be a problems since most of the signage today is in Pingyin (Romantization system of Chinese)


So what do Vietnamese learn to read ancient scrip ?

And for your information Chinese in Malaysia and Singapore also follow China's simplified Han Zi which is taught in our Chinese schools.

By your own logic, if 1.2 billion do not have a problem, perhaps Taiwan and HK should change instead.

And if anybody want to learn Traditional Chinese what is there to stop them to just take up a course. It does not take much efford.
Even Koreans find it easy to learn Chinese.

[Ordie]

I believe that one should learn the traditional characters before learning the simplified. It improves one's intelligence.

The same way I took two years of Latin in high school as a means to improve my English vocabulary. It also helped me in reading ancient Roman etchings in Rome.

[Kadrun]

So what do Vietnamese learn to read ancient scrip ?

And for your information Chinese in Malaysia and Singapore also follow China's simplified Han Zi which is taught in our Chinese schools.

By your own logic, if 1.2 billion do not have a problem, perhaps Taiwan and HK should change instead.

And if anybody want to learn Traditional Chinese what is there to stop them to just take up a course. It does not take much efford.
Even Koreans find it easy to learn Chinese.

Koreans know the meaning of the Chinese letter since they used for long time but not for speaking, and we find learning Chinese is extremely hard. It is like memorizing the picture instead constructing or joining alphabets to create words (which is completely opposite from Hangul).
BTW the easiest foreign language for Koreans to learn would be Japanese.

[Shuimo]

Koreans know the meaning of the Chinese letter since they used for long time but not for speaking, and we find learning Chinese is extremely hard. It is like memorizing the picture instead constructing or joining alphabets to create words (which is completely opposite from Hangul).
BTW the easiest foreign language for Koreans to learn would be Japanese.


You would find Chinese extremely easy if you get over the initial fear and difficult with Chinese characters!

So far as I know, many successful western learners of Chinese have such feelings!rofl

[Shuimo]

I believe that one should learn the traditional characters before learning the simplified. It improves one's intelligence.

The same way I took two years of Latin in high school as a means to improve my English vocabulary. It also helped me in reading ancient Roman etchings in Rome.

No, there is no such logic!
Unless you want to be an expert in classic Chinese, you don't have to learn traditioal Chinese characters!

[Kadrun]

You would find Chinese extremely easy if you get over the initial fear and difficult with Chinese characters!

So far as I know, many successful western learners of Chinese have such feelings!rofl

If you know something easier, why not just use easier one.
It is called efficiency.

Do you know how to write 100% of Chinese letters?

[hskywalker]

If you know something easier, why not just use easier one.
It is called efficiency.

Culture has its own value. Otherwise we can abolish all arts, literature, music, and replace them with steel mills and bridges.

[TheMiddlePath]

I believe that one should learn the traditional characters before learning the simplified. It improves one's intelligence.

The same way I took two years of Latin in high school as a means to improve my English vocabulary. It also helped me in reading ancient Roman etchings in Rome.


Go ahead and try. The other way round make more sense.

Just as in China if you can to make a career in archealogy then you learn traditional Chinese. If not the simplified works fine for majority of Chinese. Just because one day you come across a Han Zi you do not recognise, it is not like our culture has been butchered.

I guess by now you figured that Vietnamese old written scrip is Chinese Han Zi.

[Kadrun]

Culture has its own value. Otherwise we can abolish all arts, literature, music, and replace them with steel mills and bridges.

I agree with you, but I personally feel like simplified Chinese isn't enough.

[TheMiddlePath]

Koreans know the meaning of the Chinese letter since they used for long time but not for speaking, and we find learning Chinese is extremely hard. It is like memorizing the picture instead constructing or joining alphabets to create words (which is completely opposite from Hangul).
BTW the easiest foreign language for Koreans to learn would be Japanese.


At least you can read Han Zi since many of the Chinese Han Zi were not converted to Korean scrip....right ?

Getting back to the original topic, if Chinese have problems with family names, it must be worst in Korea. Everyboy I know seems to be call Kim or Park.

[hskywalker]

I agree with you, but I personally feel like simplified Chinese isn't enough.
On the political consultative meeting(a big political meeting in China) several months ago, there are some representatives argueing re-use traditional chinese. And there are quite a debate on internet at that time. Most people seems to be neutral on this matter.

It's a balance between simplicity, efficiency and culture. Don't be surprised when China furthur develops, national pride goes higher, traditional chinese will be more popular.

And this original thread is not about traditional chinese, it is about non-existent characters randomly created...

[Ordie]

No, there is no such logic!
Unless you want to be an expert in classic Chinese, you don't have to learn traditioal Chinese characters!

The US State Department diplomatic staff in China must undergo at least two years duty in Taipei. That includes language and written training of the classics.

[Ordie]

Culture has its own value. Otherwise we can abolish all arts, literature, music, and replace them with steel mills and bridges.

The Red Guards tried to do that 40 years ago.

[Ordie]

On the political consultative meeting(a big political meeting in China) several months ago, there are some representatives argueing re-use traditional chinese. And there are quite a debate on internet at that time. Most people seems to be neutral on this matter.

It's a balance between simplicity, efficiency and culture. Don't be surprised when China furthur develops, national pride goes higher, traditional chinese will be more popular.

And this original thread is not about traditional chinese, it is about non-existent characters randomly created...

If CCP wants to win back Taiwan and re-assert its legitimacy as rulers of a 5000 year old civilization, it may need to consider re-introducing the traditional characters. If Chinese parents were smart enough, they should start training thier kids with the traditional characters. It makes them stand out from thier peers and be more competitive.

As far as creating new characters? every language undergoes an evolutionary process. Every year hundreds of new words are introduced.

[Shuimo]

The US State Department diplomatic staff in China must undergo at least two years duty in Taipei. That includes language and written training of the classics.

That　ｉｓ　absoultely uncessary!
Modern Chinese people read classics vs Americans read Classics!
You tell me that Americans are better than Chinese in understanding Chinese classics??

BTW: The US State Department's standard is not necessarily right!

[Shuimo]

If CCP wants to win back Taiwan and re-assert its legitimacy as rulers of a 5000 year old civilization, it may need to consider re-introducing the traditional characters. If Chinese parents were smart enough, they should start training thier kids with the traditional characters. It makes them stand out from thier peers and be more competitive.

As far as creating new characters? every language undergoes an evolutionary process. Every year hundreds of new words are introduced.

Your legitmacy theory seems to be all that your thoughts and ideas are based upon?rofl

[Shuimo]

Ordie, CPC legitmacy doesn't need to gain the so called approval of any external forces!
All it needs is to serve us Chinese people nicely!

[Jaegermeister + Red Bull]

It seems that the Chinese are obsessed with ranking including naming rights.

I thought a person with the surname "Ma" or "Hui" denotes Muslim background? I've known many local Chinese here in San Francisco with unique surnames of "Leung", "Teo" "Lau" "Dien" and "Der". Some even have fake names derived from the days of the Chinese Exculsion Act where new arrivals pretended to be a kin of a local sponsor.

Ma was a poor example, I let that slip:). I was actually thinking of the functional name Sima, which is a court official. Its also the surname of a emperor. There are 2 character names and surnames but very rare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_(surname)

But the surnames in ancient times are either derived from the position and/or the land/gift bestowed by the rulers. That was at the beginning hence the lack of variety of surname, and also the large percentage of a few dominant surnames.

Ma and Hui are usually associated with Muslim background. There is a warloard in the employ of the KMT during the civil war and his kin were mostly in the business of war. And he was muslim.

The names you speak of in San Francisco is the not the pinyin but the Wade Giles translation, which I dont use or recognise.

For example:
Leung (used in HK, Taiwan, the old immigrant Chinese) = Liang (used in mainland)
Lau = Liu (same as above).

[Jaegermeister + Red Bull]

It's like saying, I could read Turkish, but I don't know what it means, even though they use the Roman Alphabet.

Do you know how many of the 50,000 characters have been simplified? 500 of the most commonly used, and a fair few of those words are themselves made up of simpler radicals and components, so there are really not that many. The rest are still the same as traditional.

People who read simplified chinese can actually deduce upwards to work out the same character in the more complex traditional text. And vice versa, people who read traditional text can deduce downwards.

Comparing alphabet based language to lexicon/symbol character based language is laughable. In the case of the Chinese, without actually knowing the ****ounciation and meaning of the new word, a person can deduce the meaning fairly accurately from its radicals and component forms, without actually knowing how to say it. In the case of the Roman alphabet, you said it best yourself above. You can read it, ****ounce it even, but if you have no clue to its meaning (taught to associate to an object or idea) you do not know its meaning.

[Jaegermeister + Red Bull]

You said it yourself.

LOL...that is because its a rare as rocking horse sh1t character, not because its traditional.

Most (I'd hazard to say 99%) of dictionary dont have all 50,000 characters in it.

Primary school approved dictionary had a 3000 to 5000 vocabulary. Less than 1/10th of the entire lanuage. The ordinary dictionary the police used would be around 10,000 to 15,000.

[Jaegermeister + Red Bull]

On the political consultative meeting(a big political meeting in China) several months ago, there are some representatives argueing re-use traditional chinese. And there are quite a debate on internet at that time. Most people seems to be neutral on this matter.

It's a balance between simplicity, efficiency and culture. Don't be surprised when China furthur develops, national pride goes higher, traditional chinese will be more popular.

And this original thread is not about traditional chinese, it is about non-existent characters randomly created...

Traditional characters never left...the character for word (zi) is the same in traditional and simplified.

About the thread topic, I think the system should be made better to encompass the entire literacy of the Chinese language, not just 2/3 of it. It is not non-existent characters randomly created, just rare as rocking horse sh1t character some old goat decide to give their kids.

[Jaegermeister + Red Bull]

100 surnames cover 85 percent of China's citizens

The real problem, which this article conveniently paints over...

[Ordie]

Ma was a poor example, I let that slip:). I was actually thinking of the functional name Sima, which is a court official. Its also the surname of a emperor. There are 2 character names and surnames but very rare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_(surname)

But the surnames in ancient times are either derived from the position and/or the land/gift bestowed by the rulers. That was at the beginning hence the lack of variety of surname, and also the large percentage of a few dominant surnames.

But Sima Qian is considered one of China's most significant historians of the Han Dynasty. How can modern Chinese remember his name if he is considered a national treasure?

[Ordie]

Ordie, CPC legitmacy doesn't need to gain the so called approval of any external forces!

But I thought Taiwan is an internal matter? Are you saying Taiwan is independent?


All it needs is to serve us Chinese people nicely

Like taking away the freedom to choose unique names.

[Shuimo]

But I thought Taiwan is an internal matter? Are you saying Taiwan is independent?



Like taking away the freedom to choose unique names.


Taiwan is an internal matter indeed!

No, the freedom is still there!
But that freedom should be limited!rofl

[Noble713]

It'd be interesting if China could develop an alphabet that still retains a connection to the existing script. Maybe have a character for each ****ounceable syllable and tone, but make the characters look like an even-more-simplified Hanzi. You'd get something similar to Korea's alphabet, but with maybe 200-300 character variations. That's still 100 times better than learning 30,000+ unique hieroglyphs.

我量年学喜汉与,不会看汉子. Had to find a pinyin+tones-->hanzi website to type that. It's not even grammatically correct, since I forgot how to do the past tense. :(

[Shuimo]

It'd be interesting if China could develop an alphabet that still retains a connection to the existing script. Maybe have a character for each ****ounceable syllable and tone, but make the characters look like an even-more-simplified Hanzi. You'd get something similar to Korea's alphabet, but with maybe 200-300 character variations. That's still 100 times better than learning 30,000+ unique hieroglyphs.

我量年学喜汉与,不会看汉子. Had to find a pinyin+tones-->hanzi website to type that. It's not even grammatically correct, since I forgot how to do the past tense. :(

Chinese ceases to be Chinese if it is otherwise!
BTW: what kind of method do you use to type Chinese characters?

I just couldn't help laughing at what you typed, though Shuimo understood what you tried to say!
Here is Shuimo's native touch-up!rofl
我学习了两年汉语，但还不会认汉字！(simplified)

我學習了兩年漢語，但還不會認漢字！(traditional)

[Noble713]

I used this site: http://xenomachina.com/toys/pinyin2hanzi.html

It has no way to check the English definition of the characters it selects for you.

A really good program is NJ Star Word Processor: http://www.njstar.com/

As you type each pinyin character/word it gives you a list of words in Hanzi, accented pinyin, AND English that you can easily pick from.

I used to use it in Windows, but now I'm running Linux and I haven't tried getting it to work with WINE yet.


Chinese ceases to be Chinese if it is otherwise!

While I appreciate your concern for your cultural heritage (I myself fear Internet-speak and emoticons will destroy English), I'm pretty sure people used to say the same thing before the number zero was invented, but it proved to be a good development in the long run. Hanzi, on the other hand, isn't too far removed from Egyptian hieroglyphs. It may be full of character but it's not very efficient.

[Shuimo]

I used this site: http://xenomachina.com/toys/pinyin2hanzi.html

It has no way to check the English definition of the characters it selects for you.

A really good program is NJ Star Word Processor: http://www.njstar.com/

As you type each pinyin character/word it gives you a list of words in Hanzi, accented pinyin, AND English that you can easily pick from.

I used to use it in Windows, but now I'm running Linux and I haven't tried getting it to work with WINE yet.



While I appreciate your concern for your cultural heritage (I myself fear Internet-speak and emoticons will destroy English), I'm pretty sure people used to say the same thing before the number zero was invented, but it proved to be a good development in the long run. Hanzi, on the other hand, isn't too far removed from Egyptian hieroglyphs. It may be full of character but it's not very efficient.

NO, Shuimo won't give a damn about the danger of Chinese being ramantized!
That is simply out of the question!rofl

[Kadrun]

Getting back to the original topic, if Chinese have problems with family names, it must be worst in Korea. Everyboy I know seems to be call Kim or Park.there is a joke that if u throw a rock from the top of the mountain, either kim, lee, or park will get hit. anyways, 'kim' is only a part of the last name. for example, my full last name would be Kim of (or from) Daegu (?? ??; Daegu Kim-ssi).

[Ordie]

No, the freedom is still there!
But that freedom should be limited!rofl

Infamous last words.

[Shuimo]

Infamous last words.

There is no such thing as absolute freedom!woot

[Ordie]

While I appreciate your concern for your cultural heritage (I myself fear Internet-speak and emoticons will destroy English), I'm pretty sure people used to say the same thing before the number zero was invented, but it proved to be a good development in the long run. Hanzi, on the other hand, isn't too far removed from Egyptian hieroglyphs. It may be full of character but it's not very efficient.

English is an inclusive and evolutionary language. People freely add new words, terminology and meanings over time and generations.

Unlike Chinese, Eygptian hieroglyphs are phonetic. It fell into disuse as Aramaic using Nabatean/Syriatic script became the Lingua Franca in the Middle East. It eventually evolved into modern Arabic.

[Shuimo]

English is an inclusive and evolutionary language. People freely add new words, terminology and meanings over time and generations.

Unlike Chinese, Eygptian hieroglyphs are phonetic. It fell into disuse as Aramaic using Nabatean/Syriatic script became the Lingua Franca in the Middle East. It eventually evolved into modern Arabic.


Ordie, remind you:
There is no such thing as Chinese character less effective or expressive as English!

Chinese has existed in this world by millenium-hornored history!
We feel proud to use Chinese characters!

The surprising thing is that Chinese characters can be so compatible with this computer age!
Wonder!rofl

[Shuimo]

I understand your misunderstanding of Chinese since you don't know Chinese! Ordie

[Ordie]

Ordie, remind you:
There is no such thing as Chinese character less effective or expressive as English!

Chinese has existed in this world by millenium-hornored history!
We feel proud to use Chinese characters!

The surprising thing is that Chinese characters can be so compatible with this computer age!
Wonder!rofl

There comes a point with globalization and technology where foriegn new words and terminology are adopted as part of the Chinese lexicon.

Just as English adopted the words from China including:

Typhoon
Gung Ho
Chai
Chow
Ketchup
Kowtow

[Shuimo]

There comes a point with globalization and technology where foriegn new words and terminology are adopted as part of the Chinese lexicon.

Just as English adopted the words from China including:

Typhoon
Gung Ho
Chai
Chow
Ketchup
Kowtow

So did Chinese!

Chinese is full of vitality and open to absorb new elements!

The history of Chinese language is a history of aborbing and change, yet its soul and spirit remain forever unchange---- the world-uniqe characters!rofl

[Solvent]

There comes a point with globalization and technology where foriegn new words and terminology are adopted as part of the Chinese lexicon.

Just as English adopted the words from China including:

Typhoon
Gung Ho
Chai
Chow
Ketchup
Kowtow

Chinese is adopting other languages too.

For example:
moss
sofa
...
of course, they are in Chinese form, but ****unciations are very close.

And many words from Japanese as well.

[Shuimo]

Chinese is adopting other languages too.

For example:
moss
sofa
...
of course, they are in Chinese form, but ****unciations are very close.

And many words from Japanese as well.
Ordie needs to learn Chinese!

[Solvent]

Ordie needs to learn Chinese!

I doubt about it.

[hskywalker]

English is an inclusive and evolutionary language. People freely add new words, terminology and meanings over time and generations.

Unlike Chinese, Eygptian hieroglyphs are phonetic. It fell into disuse as Aramaic using Nabatean/Syriatic script became the Lingua Franca in the Middle East. It eventually evolved into modern Arabic.
Egypt was conquored and ruled by a superior civilization, egypt failed.
India was conquored and ruled by a superior civilization, india failed.
China hasn't failed yet. And there really is no comparison with vietnam,korea, or philippine...

[Ordie]

China hasn't failed yet..

The Mongols in 1279

The Manchurians in 1644

The British in 1842

The Britsh and French in 1860

The Japanaese / Russians / Americans / British / Germans / Italians / Austrian - Hungarians in 1901.

The Japanese in 1895

China failed many times.

[TheMiddlePath]

The Mongols in 1279

The Manchurians in 1644

The British in 1842

The Britsh and French in 1860

The Japanaese / Russians / Americans / British / Germans / Italians / Austrian - Hungarians in 1901.

The Japanese in 1895

China failed many times.

You have a strange way to define what is a failure.

In your own logic of what a failure is.....Then Mongols and the Manchus lost ... in the end and became part of China.
The British lost Hong Kong and Kowloon to China without firing a shot.
And Japan now is only a third of its size it was before they started WW2 and is now an occupied country.

Just look at the size of the Middle Kingdom from the earliest Shang dynasty throught to today.

China is actually the biggest winner of all.

[LineDoggie]

Your saying Japanese Aircraft bombing your cities with Impunity was a Success?

Nanking must of been one hell of a Victory for china then

Japan is Occupied? by whom? the US forces stationed there dont have any control of the Japanese Government or People

[damagejackal]

Infamous last words.



You should read "The True Story of Ah Q" to understand China's sickness...

[ren0312]

There comes a point with globalization and technology where foriegn new words and terminology are adopted as part of the Chinese lexicon.

Just as English adopted the words from China including:

Typhoon
Gung Ho
Chai
Chow
Ketchup
Kowtow

I really doubt that is of Chinese origin, most probably it cam from some French and Spanish word, considering that it first came into use in the English language in 1690.

[Solvent]

You have a strange way to define what is a failure.

In your own logic of what a failure is.....Then Mongols and the Manchus lost ... in the end and became part of China.
The British lost Hong Kong and Kowloon to China without firing a shot.
And Japan now is only a third of its size it was before they started WW2 and is now an occupied country.

Just look at the size of the Middle Kingdom from the earliest Shang dynasty throught to today.

China is actually the biggest winner of all.

Well said. Even you are from another country. Apparently, you are still one of us. Keep it real, brother.

[Ordie]

You have a strange way to define what is a failure.

China is actually the biggest winner of all.

You have a typical, neo-nationalist, sino-centric, face saving, twisted selective memory view on history.

Given its history of the past 60 years, there is no greater enemy of the Chinese than themselves with failed policies the CCP has yet to apologize for.

[Shuimo]

You have a typical, neo-nationalist, sino-centric, face saving, twisted selective memory view on history.

Given its history of the past 60 years, there is no greater enemy of the Chinese than themselves with failed policies the CCP has yet to apologize for.
There is no smooth sailing!
You never expect yourself to be always right in all you do, right?

[Shuimo]

Don't just keep your eyes focused on the failures of a country!
No country is perfect!
You cannot hold China to be impecable!
If you mere focus on China's demerits of trees, you lose the merits of a forest!
That would distort your yr views of the dynamic Chinese culture!

[Ordie]

Don't just keep your eyes focused on the failures of a country!
No country is perfect!
You cannot hold China to be impecable!
If you mere focus on China's demerits of trees, you lose the merits of a forest!
That would distort your yr views of the dynamic Chinese culture!

Then don't pretrend to be perfect by neglecting your country's dirty laundry and skeletons in the closet.

[hskywalker]

The Mongols in 1279

The Manchurians in 1644

The British in 1842

The Britsh and French in 1860

The Japanaese / Russians / Americans / British / Germans / Italians / Austrian - Hungarians in 1901.

The Japanese in 1895

China failed many times.
Mongols and manchus are not "superior" country, they can't make China look like them even they occupied China. As for barbarian invasions, it started long before mongols. Some very successful too. Didn't left too much mark.

And even a more advanced civilization occupied a backward one, you still need long years to transfer them. How is american's value of "liberty" going in iraq and afganistan? 5 year's occupation to transfer a country?

And chinese character set is the core of chinese culture. Not some wooden building, brick temples. Western collecters bid high price for some useless bronze animal heads, which most chinese don't really care too much. There are no "culture" in some sculpture or beautiful vase. Chinese collecters mostly collect ancient calligraph, paintings, famous essays, poems, or ancient copies of those things.

[ren0312]

You have a typical, neo-nationalist, sino-centric, face saving, twisted selective memory view on history.

Given its history of the past 60 years, there is no greater enemy of the Chinese than themselves with failed policies the CCP has yet to apologize for.

If outlasting is winning, then they won, after all, you could argue that the British did not lose the Revolutionary War so much as they left, if the British had commited as much troops to North America as in the Battle of Waterloo the Continental Army would have been defeated, especially since the colonists hardly had the support of the majority if the population, especially in the South.

[damagejackal]

You have a typical, neo-nationalist, sino-centric, face saving, twisted selective memory view on history.

Given its history of the past 60 years, there is no greater enemy of the Chinese than themselves with failed policies the CCP has yet to apologize for.



What did you expect when their whole existance is based on being a particular ethnicity:roll:

[Jaegermeister + Red Bull]

But Sima Qian is considered one of China's most significant historians of the Han Dynasty. How can modern Chinese remember his name if he is considered a national treasure?

That whole sentence didnt make sense, what are you trying to say?

[Shuimo]

Then don't pretrend to be perfect by neglecting your country's dirty laundry and skeletons in the closet.

No one is pretending!:-*$

[King of the Grey]

what on earth is this! the topic was about China trying to regulate use of names!

Ordie please spare us of your insensitivity to other cultures.

Yes, Chinese language is a b*tch to learn and use, even for ourselves. It is slightly like heiroglyphics, as in the combinations have their distinctive meanings individually, so thats why in the past, only the rich + learned understand the full language, while the rest know enough to get by.

Its like you not understanding Shakespere even when u know how to ****ounce each word, but you're not schooled in how to read it as it should be read!

Fast forward 1949, Chairman Mao, in order to keep in line with the Communist 'everybody the same' ideology, decided to simplify the language so everybody has a higher chance to learn it without needing intensive schooling in ancient text. And he is successful, both in reaching out to the mass and dumbing down the entire language.

But both simplified AND traditional share the same root, so for a dude from Beijing coming to Hong Kong/Taiwan, he'l find it odd in first few days, but he'll recognize the words. Its just the writing that is different.

So Ordie, give some respect and stop your senseless bashing on our culture and focus on topic. The situation is, parents are using archaic characters for their children. Its their freedom, sure, but its also a fact nobody can read, write or even ****ounce it. Like you use ancient Gaelic for your name, fine.

Now imagine every 5 in 100 people doing that. When you're dealing with a country this size, it matters. You see it as attack in personal freedom, I think sometimes, lines have to be drawn. Its simply the matter of how to run this country so it won't fail. I'd like to see you keep this up when every 5 person you know is either ÆLFGIFU Cooper or ÆÐELFRID Langer.

Out

[Shuimo]

what on earth is this! the topic was about China trying to regulate use of names!

Ordie please spare us of your insensitivity to other cultures.

Yes, Chinese language is a b*tch to learn and use, even for ourselves. It is slightly like heiroglyphics, as in the combinations have their distinctive meanings individually, so thats why in the past, only the rich + learned understand the full language, while the rest know enough to get by.

Its like you not understanding Shakespere even when u know how to ****ounce each word, but you're not schooled in how to read it as it should be read!

Fast forward 1949, Chairman Mao, in order to keep in line with the Communist 'everybody the same' ideology, decided to simplify the language so everybody has a higher chance to learn it without needing intensive schooling in ancient text. And he is successful, both in reaching out to the mass and dumbing down the entire language.

But both simplified AND traditional share the same root, so for a dude from Beijing coming to Hong Kong/Taiwan, he'l find it odd in first few days, but he'll recognize the words. Its just the writing that is different.

So Ordie, give some respect and stop your senseless bashing on our culture and focus on topic. The situation is, parents are using archaic characters for their children. Its their freedom, sure, but its also a fact nobody can read, write or even ****ounce it. Like you use ancient Gaelic for your name, fine.

Now imagine every 5 in 100 people doing that. When you're dealing with a country this size, it matters. You see it as attack in personal freedom, I think sometimes, lines have to be drawn. Its simply the matter of how to run this country so it won't fail. I'd like to see you keep this up when every 5 person you know is either ÆLFGIFU Cooper or ÆÐELFRID Langer.

Out

Ordie wishes to wipe out Chinese characters by ramantizing Chinese!

[TheMiddlePath]

You have a typical, neo-nationalist, sino-centric, face saving, twisted selective memory view on history.

Given its history of the past 60 years, there is no greater enemy of the Chinese than themselves with failed policies the CCP has yet to apologize for.


Yes, Ordie....sometimes the truth is painful....to some.

[TheMiddlePath]

Your saying Japanese Aircraft bombing your cities with Impunity was a Success?

Nanking must of been one hell of a Victory for china then

Japan is Occupied? by whom? the US forces stationed there dont have any control of the Japanese Government or People


Oh no....its Linedoggie....still waiting for China to implode...to collapse...to burst....still waiting....waiting ... and waiting.....

[Solvent]

You have a typical, neo-nationalist, sino-centric, face saving, twisted selective memory view on history.

Given its history of the past 60 years, there is no greater enemy of the Chinese than themselves with failed policies the CCP has yet to apologize for.

You don't have to title other people like that when they have different understanding of history. Your behavior is what people did in Culture Revolution.

And the government is doing just fine, the country is on the right track. And people lives are getting better. Chinese people are practical. Who can bring prosperity will be supported. This is our own call, please mind your own business.

[LineDoggie]

Oh no....its Linedoggie....still waiting for China to implode...to collapse...to burst....still waiting....waiting ... and waiting.....for middle paff to post something coherent :)

You claim Japan is Occupied

I leave you with this quote from Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain)

"It ain't that there are too many Fools, but that the Lightning ain't distributed right"- More Maxims of Mark, Johnson, 1927

[Ordie]

And the government is doing just fine, the country is on the right track. And people lives are getting better. Chinese people are practical. Who can bring prosperity will be supported. This is our own call, please mind your own business.

The government is afraid of the Chinese people because its sole legitimacy to govern is based on "top-down" policy driven economic growth and social order.

In its current form, CCP cadres are rewarded for meeting quotas but not how well they manage local issues. Very often the solution comes in squelching people's right to petition by sending in the PAP.

In my opinion, this situation is not sustainable in the long term unless there are fundamental reforms in separating the CCP from the bureaucracy.

As far as people's lives are getting better? I challenge you to visit Shanxi Provence as see for yourself and go with two days without coughing up coal soot. In which by the way contributing to climate change and rapid meltdown of the Tibetian plateau glaciers that supplies water to 2 billion people in China, India and South East Asia.

Then you have a real problem of no water making Lake Baikal in Russia very tempting.

[Jobu]

What kind of slave are you if you can't even decide what to name your own children?

"Kunta Kinte. No, Toby!"

[Solvent]

The government is afraid of the Chinese people because its sole legitimacy to govern is based on "top-down" policy driven economic growth and social order.

In its current form, CCP cadres are rewarded for meeting quotas but not how well they manage local issues. Very often the solution comes in squelching people's right to petition by sending in the PAP.

In my opinion, this situation is not sustainable in the long term unless there are fundamental reforms in separating the CCP from the bureaucracy.

As far as people's lives are getting better? I challenge you to visit Shanxi Provence as see for yourself and go with two days without coughing up coal soot. In which by the way contributing to climate change and rapid meltdown of the Tibetian plateau glaciers that supplies water to 2 billion people in China, India and South East Asia.

Then you have a real problem of no water making Lake Baikal in Russia very tempting.

I don't see much worry from the government. In fact, they are confident than never. They know as long as the country keeps growing, they will have no problem to rule.

Stable or not in long run, who knows about it. I don't want to be a fortune teller. Up and down is forever issue in history, when downturn comes, we will figure out the way out. I am a strong believer of that the people of one country will take full responsibility of the fate of the country. After all, it is our choice.

Don't assume I haven't been to poorest place in China. I came from one of them. I am clearly aware of the situation. But that only means we have long way to go. When I talk about the living standard, I am comparing 30 years ago with present. Horizontal comparison is less valuable since gap will always be there.

As far as climate change goes, don't even blame on China and India, we just bunch of poor people try to make better living. Don't forget in past one hundred years, who are responsible for most of pollution. We are doing our fair shares to change it. It will take time especially for big sized countries like China and India.

[Ordie]

What kind of slave are you if you can't even decide what to name your own children?

"Kunta Kinte. No, Toby!"

It's Lt. Geordi La Forge

[Ordie]

I don't see much worry from the government. In fact, they are confident than never. They know as long as the country keeps growing, they will have no problem to rule.

I was in Beijing earlier this month.

From what I've seen in China. The Government was freaking paranoid. Especially when PAP cops are seeking for the slightest mis-step at or near Tienanamen Square with x-ray machines, roving paddy wagons, and plainclothes cops everywhere.

They were shaking down anyone with a dark completion or looked like a petitioner (old folks). I was followed by plainclothes cops on three occasions. It was annoying but I didn't mind the company since I knew I wasn't going to get mugged or harrassed by an agressive souvenier vendor.

[eskachig]

I don't know about the politics of it, but 55000 characters is a whole lot.

[King of the Grey]

Ordie
I was in Beijing earlier this month.

From what I've seen in China. The Government was freaking paranoid. Especially when PAP cops are seeking for the slightest mis-step at or near Tienanamen Square with x-ray machines, roving paddy wagons, and plainclothes cops everywhere.

They were shaking down anyone with a dark completion or looked like a petitioner (old folks).
well, not gonna justify the govt.'s actions on this. But paranoia is a trademark of most, if not all authoritian govt. As long as you dont look Han Chinese, chances are, you will get tagged. Not to mention if u have a look of a petitioner or a dissident.

Chances are, if u are a petitioner from say...Nanjing and want to report of a corrupt official, u get to Beijing, and lo and behold, on the train platform are police from your Nanjing district ready to take you back home. I feel most of the greivances are done by lower cadres of the govt. The Central Government actually has limited power over the provinces in terms of maintaining policies. Too big, too many officials, no independent judiciary system, 5000 years of 'backdoors and goodies' etc etc.

It'll take time before the concept of human rights, of constitution, of the law being upheld above all else, sinks into the masses. Our system of govt. has always been top-down, but now, with the masses getting knowledge how life can be different and getting comparisons, it will change....slowly...like...very slowly.

Maybe another 5000 years??

[TheMiddlePath]

You have a typical, neo-nationalist, sino-centric, face saving, twisted selective memory view on history.

Given its history of the past 60 years, there is no greater enemy of the Chinese than themselves with failed policies the CCP has yet to apologize for.


How about Cowboy administration in the past 8 years ?

Or what the Eurpoeans did to themself durring WW1 and WW2.

[TheMiddlePath]

what on earth is this! the topic was about China trying to regulate use of names!

Ordie please spare us of your insensitivity to other cultures.

Yes, Chinese language is a b*tch to learn and use, even for ourselves. It is slightly like heiroglyphics, as in the combinations have their distinctive meanings individually, so thats why in the past, only the rich + learned understand the full language, while the rest know enough to get by.

Its like you not understanding Shakespere even when u know how to ****ounce each word, but you're not schooled in how to read it as it should be read!

Fast forward 1949, Chairman Mao, in order to keep in line with the Communist 'everybody the same' ideology, decided to simplify the language so everybody has a higher chance to learn it without needing intensive schooling in ancient text. And he is successful, both in reaching out to the mass and dumbing down the entire language.

But both simplified AND traditional share the same root, so for a dude from Beijing coming to Hong Kong/Taiwan, he'l find it odd in first few days, but he'll recognize the words. Its just the writing that is different.

So Ordie, give some respect and stop your senseless bashing on our culture and focus on topic. The situation is, parents are using archaic characters for their children. Its their freedom, sure, but its also a fact nobody can read, write or even ****ounce it. Like you use ancient Gaelic for your name, fine.

Now imagine every 5 in 100 people doing that. When you're dealing with a country this size, it matters. You see it as attack in personal freedom, I think sometimes, lines have to be drawn. Its simply the matter of how to run this country so it won't fail. I'd like to see you keep this up when every 5 person you know is either ÆLFGIFU Cooper or ÆÐELFRID Langer.

Out


Talking about lack of critical thinking or Ordie is becoming a spokeman for FLG.

[TheMiddlePath]

for middle paff to post something coherent :)

You claim Japan is Occupied




It's Linedoggieeeee..........Either he has a low IQ or he do not have a sense of humur or both.

[Ordie]

Talking about lack of critical thinking or Ordie is becoming a spokeman for FLG.

I don't give a damn about the FLG. But it perplexes me on how the CCP mistreatment of the FLG only serves to benefit the FLG image.

If the CCP were smart enough, they should allow the FLG to exist and ignore it altogether. Sooner or later the FLG 15 minutes of fame will dissappear.

[Ordie]

well, not gonna justify the govt.'s actions on this. But paranoia is a trademark of most, if not all authoritian govt. As long as you dont look Han Chinese, chances are, you will get tagged. Not to mention if u have a look of a petitioner or a dissident.

Chances are, if u are a petitioner from say...Nanjing and want to report of a corrupt official, u get to Beijing, and lo and behold, on the train platform are police from your Nanjing district ready to take you back home. I feel most of the greivances are done by lower cadres of the govt. The Central Government actually has limited power over the provinces in terms of maintaining policies. Too big, too many officials, no independent judiciary system, 5000 years of 'backdoors and goodies' etc etc.

It'll take time before the concept of human rights, of constitution, of the law being upheld above all else, sinks into the masses. Our system of govt. has always been top-down, but now, with the masses getting knowledge how life can be different and getting comparisons, it will change....slowly...like...very slowly.

Maybe another 5000 years??

Nah... the PAP were easy on the Westerners. At least they didn't frisk us.

But they did profile and target the Senior Citizens with shopping bags, Tibetian and Uhigur looking people rummaging through thier belongings. They really treated country people and local laborers like crap.

As I was leaving Tienanmen Square towards Wangfuging, I was surprised about the number of hookers (Prostitutes) walking up to me asking me to go for a "lucky drink" all within the shadow of the PAP paddy wagon.

I guess hedonism is allowed as long as you are not political.

[Shuimo]

Nah... the PAP were easy on the Westerners. At least they didn't frisk us.

But they did profile and target the Senior Citizens with shopping bags, Tibetian and Uhigur looking people rummaging through thier belongings. They really treated country people and local laborers like crap.

As I was leaving Tienanmen Square towards Wangfuging, I was surprised about the number of hookers (Prostitutes) walking up to me asking me to go for a "lucky drink" all within the shadow of the PAP paddy wagon.

I guess hedonism is allowed as long as you are not political.
If you've ever been to China, you should know hedonism is rampant here!rofl

[Shuimo]

I don't give a damn about the FLG. But it perplexes me on how the CCP mistreatment of the FLG only serves to benefit the FLG image.

If the CCP were smart enough, they should allow the FLG to exist and ignore it altogether. Sooner or later the FLG 15 minutes of fame will dissappear.


NO, FLG is every bit an evil cult, it has to be rooted up completely!rofl

[Ordie]

NO, FLG is every bit an evil cult, it has to be rooted up completely!rofl

How?

History has shown that whenever a belief system is persecuted it becomes stronger.

Keep in mind that the CCP and Communist idealology itsself was considered evil, banned, persecuted and chased by the KMT.

[ren0312]

How?

History has shown that whenever a belief system is persecuted it becomes stronger.

Keep in mind that the CCP and Communist idealology itsself was considered evil, banned, persecuted and chased by the KMT.

Like Scientology?:)

[TheMiddlePath]

How?

History has shown that whenever a belief system is persecuted it becomes stronger.

Keep in mind that the CCP and Communist idealology itsself was considered evil, banned, persecuted and chased by the KMT.


Well I wasnt all that unhappy when Dr. Mahathir banned the Al Arcam religious cult in Malaysia back in the 80s... even when they did not break any law and had penertrated all levels of society (including the Government). Some were even my fellow colleagues.

Yes it is not easy. Malaysia had to reeducated them one by one, face to face.

[Ordie]

Yes it is not easy. Malaysia had to reeducated them one by one, face to face.

With tea kettles.

[Ordie]

Like Scientology?:)

Just ignore it.

[ren0312]

Just ignore it.

The point is that those who condemn China for this should put things into perspective, after all other Western countries in the EU also ban organizations they deem to be harmful to the common interest such as Scientology and Neonazi groups.

[Ordie]

The point is that those who condemn China for this should put things into perspective, after all other Western countries in the EU also ban organizations they deem to be harmfull to the common interest such as Scientology and Neonazi groups.

I don't even agree with the EU ban of neo-nazi groups or scientology. I believe that people have a fundamental right to associate themselves to any organization, church or belief system.

Even if I agree with them or not.

[LineDoggie]

It's Linedoggieeeee..........Either he has a low IQ or he do not have a sense of humur or both.

I'm Chinese? dear god now my ***** is microscopic.....

tell me when you need birth control do you just put a piece of chewing gum on the end?


The shame, now I will have to move to Kuala Lumpur...........

[Jiggy]

I'm Chinese? dear god now my ***** is microscopic.....

tell me when you need birth control do you just put a piece of chewing gum on the end?


The shame, now I will have to move to Kuala Lumpur...........

lmaoooo...