hk 417 for uk marksman rifle

[martinexsquaddie]

looks like the long silly weapon has had its chips
3 commando brigade is getting the hk417 for the marksman rifle

[marktigger]

any reference for this?

or is it being release ahead of the announcement of the new defence review?

[The Dane]

Our sniper spotters also use them.. A great weapon! :)

[oldsoak]

Interesting - I thought they were moving away from 7.62 as a sniper round and using the .338. So we would now keep 2 sniper calibres at platoon/company level with the appropriate match ammo ?
OOI whats the reason for not adopting a heavy barrellled version of the 416 which uses the same calibre as the SA80A2 ? My reasoning is that it would mean you could blag a mag off the squaddie next to you when you run out of match grade ammo in extended firefights - which are not that unusual in Afghanistan. Trying to de-link 7.62 intended for the gimpy gunner so you can bomb up a mag in the heat of it all could make for interesting times. I know that 7.62 outperforms the 5.56 in range and ability to punch through things, however what ranges is the DM going to be shooting at ? - and if its outside the performance envelope of the 5.56 isnt that in the snipers remit with the .338 ?

[marktigger]

cept of course they make an administritive error in the ordering process and mysteriously 3cdo bde converts back to 7.62mm ;)

[Bisley_Bob]

The green zone is only highly dense during some parts of the year, when it's all died down engagements are taking place up to 800m which is a bit of a stretch for 5.56. A semi automatic weapon in 7.62 would nicely bridge the gap between riflemen and sniper. Yes, it's another type of amunition to carry, but its nice to see another tool is becoming available for use if and when the situation warrants it.

[oldsoak]

Bring back the .280 I say ! :-P
Seriously - had we that round, we'd have got what we needed out to 800m.
.338 would have taken over from 800m.

[Hollis]

Interesting - I thought they were moving away from 7.62 as a sniper round and using the .338. So we would now keep 2 sniper calibres at platoon/company level with the appropriate match ammo ?
OOI whats the reason for not adopting a heavy barrellled version of the 416 which uses the same calibre as the SA80A2 ? My reasoning is that it would mean you could blag a mag off the squaddie next to you when you run out of match grade ammo in extended firefights - which are not that unusual in Afghanistan. Trying to de-link 7.62 intended for the gimpy gunner so you can bomb up a mag in the heat of it all could make for interesting times. I know that 7.62 outperforms the 5.56 in range and ability to punch through things, however what ranges is the DM going to be shooting at ? - and if its outside the performance envelope of the 5.56 isnt that in the snipers remit with the .338 ?


On Snipers, in the states we have snipers and designated marksman (DM). Is this the same in the UK?

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Interesting - I thought they were moving away from 7.62 as a sniper round and using the .338. So we would now keep 2 sniper calibres at platoon/company level with the appropriate match ammo ?
OOI whats the reason for not adopting a heavy barrellled version of the 416 which uses the same calibre as the SA80A2 ? My reasoning is that it would mean you could blag a mag off the squaddie next to you when you run out of match grade ammo in extended firefights - which are not that unusual in Afghanistan. Trying to de-link 7.62 intended for the gimpy gunner so you can bomb up a mag in the heat of it all could make for interesting times. I know that 7.62 outperforms the 5.56 in range and ability to punch through things, however what ranges is the DM going to be shooting at ? - and if its outside the performance envelope of the 5.56 isnt that in the snipers remit with the .338 ?

Why would you need match grade 7.62 for a marksman's rifle? A marksman is not a sniper. RG 7.62 was good enough when we had SLRs. I agree that delinking gimpy ammo would be a faff but probably not a major one before heading out the door.

[oldsoak]

@HOLLIS - near enough. The roles are the same - ie a good shot but not sniper trained at squad level. Not sure on the precise nomenclature, but I'll find out.

[Hollis]

@HOLLIS - near enough. The roles are the same - ie a good shot but not sniper trained at squad level. Not sure on the precise nomenclature, but I'll find out.


Thanks. That is a sexy rifle.

[oldsoak]

Why would you need match grade 7.62 for a marksman's rifle? A marksman is not a sniper. RG 7.62 was good enough when we had SLRs. I agree that delinking gimpy ammo would be a faff but probably not a major one before heading out the door.

AUI, the 417 isnt an SLR in terms of "bog standard" assualt rifle. AIUI, its accurised and therefore possibly optimised for a particular grade of ammo which sods law says isnt issued to GPMG's. If I am correct, I beleive it will be issued with the idea of being able to take shots in the 500-800m range that Pte Smith might be optimistic of hitting. Its not magging up before the event thats the prob, its doing it when you've had to put down supressive fire in a situation thats going to rat**** and you're men down. You cant tell the DM to take a backseat while he's got a rifle and you've lost a lad. He cant use the cas's rifle as its not zero'd for him, but he will need to get stuck in.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

AUI, the 417 isnt an SLR in terms of "bog standard" assualt rifle. AIUI, its accurised and therefore possibly optimised for a particular grade of ammo which sods law says isnt issued to GPMG's. If I am correct, I beleive it will be issued with the idea of being able to take shots in the 500-800m range that Pte Smith might be optimistic of hitting. Its not magging up before the event thats the prob, its doing it when you've had to put down supressive fire in a situation thats going to rat**** and you're men down. You cant tell the DM to take a backseat while he's got a rifle and you've lost a lad. He cant use the cas's rifle as its not zero'd for him, but he will need to get stuck in.

Fair enough. I'm not familiar with the chamber specs of the HK417

[Hollis]

Fair enough. I'm not familiar with the chamber specs of the HK417


I would like to know that too, the mil spec for the 5.56 tends to detract from the accuracy. The chamber specs for the .223 adds tends to the accuracy........ ie; free bore (throat length). The free bore is greater on the mil spec 5.56. According to what I have read.

[oldsoak]

@HOLLIS
A bit of confusion here - the L96 was classified as a marksmans rifle - this being the 7.62 bolt action rifle used by snipers before we decided that .338 was the only way to be. We are getting rid of the 7.62 L96.
The LSW or L86A2 was our light support weapon - 5.56mm mag fed. This was outed by the FN Minimi in fire support and is now called a "marksmans rifle". Its not bad in this role having a heavy barrel and a bipod and within the limits of 5.56 NATO and its 4x optics, it can dispense unhappiness to the unwashed. It does however look like its going to be replaced by the Hk417 in some units. Possibly this is due to the fact that 5.56 just doesnt have the legs in Afghanistan, and that as snipers are always few in number having a marksman with a 417 in a squad/section is a good option.
Is the user a "designated marksman" or just "marksman" ? I dunno. I'm still looking !

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I would like to know that too, the mil spec for the 5.56 tends to detract from the accuracy. The chamber specs for the .223 adds tends to the accuracy........ ie; free bore (throat length). The free bore is greater on the mil spec 5.56. According to what I have read.

Yeah the match chamber of my UK spec straight pull AR15 does not really like UK mil 5.56mm RG ammo. There's a tendency for hard extractions after a few rounds which would probably cause a very high frequency of stoppages if it was a semi auto firearm.

[Hollis]

Ooops on my parts, thanks for the heads up.


H.

[oldsoak]

Original spec for the 417 was 500m plus infantry rifle. They have various barrel lengths, but IMHO, its a bit pointless going for a short barrel on a different rifle and different calibre when you'll end up with something not too wildly different in performance to what you've got issued.
Heres a link to cut n paste
http://www.heckler-koch.de/HKWebText/detailProd/1928/345/4/19

Apparently there are two grades of barrel - standaed and accurised. Allegedly, the accurised barrel gives 1 moa with the right ammo.

[HCV]

Our sniper spotters also use them.. A great weapon! :)

Under which Danish designation? Thanks!

Cheers

HANS