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Ordie
04-29-2009, 04:05 AM
CCP should read a historical case study about a the Roman persecution of a Judaic Messianic sect 2000 years ago and its outcome.

What is forbidden, makes it seductive.


China Still Presses Crusade Against Falun Gong
By ANDREW JACOBS (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/j/andrew_jacobs/index.html?inline=nyt-per)
BEIJING — In the decade since the Chinese government began repressing Falun Gong (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/f/falun_gong/index.html?inline=nyt-org), a crusade that human rights groups say has led to the imprisonment of tens of thousands of practitioners and claimed at least 2,000 lives, the world’s attention has shifted elsewhere.
The drive against the spiritual group (http://faluninfo.net/) has eliminated its leadership, decimated the ranks of faithful and convinced many Chinese that the group is an “evil cult,” as the government contends (http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/zt/ppflg/). But 10 years on, the war on Falun Gong remains unfinished.
In the past year, as many as 8,000 practitioners have been detained, according to experts on human rights, and at least 100 have died in custody. Among them were Yu Zhou, 42, a popular Beijing musician (http://www.youmaker.com/video/sv?id571f7e4d385e4dfd86cb89fa573c6a2d001), and Cao Changling, the 77-year-old vice director of a paper plant in Wuhan, whose bruised body was returned to his family (http://clearharmony.net/articles/200902/47932.html) by the police last summer just as China (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/china/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) was reveling in the glory of the Olympic Games.
In recent months, scores of practitioners have been given long prison terms, including Zhang Xingwu, a retired physics professor from Shandong Province who last week was sentenced to seven years after the police found Falun Gong literature in his apartment, according to family members.
The continued crackdown highlights the difficulty of eradicating a movement whose adherents stubbornly cling to their beliefs, but it also provides a window into the psyche of an authoritarian government that, despite its far-reaching power, remains deeply insecure.
From the outset, the group, which at its peak claimed to have millions of followers around China, insisted that it wanted only legal recognition, not political power. But the country’s top leaders were alarmed by the group’s ability to attract a devoted following from so many citizens — from retired functionaries to pimple-faced college students.
The decision to ban the group entirely was made after 10,000 Falun Gong adherents staged a silent protest outside the gates of Zhongnanhai, the Communist Party’s leadership compound in Beijing, to complain about reports in the state-run media that the group said were defamatory. Security forces apparently had no advance knowledge of the demonstration, which took place on April 25, 1999, and they began treating the group as a threat to national security.
“Even a soccer team with an organization like Falun Gong might have produced the same reaction,” said T. Kumar, the Asia advocacy director (http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/regions/asia-pacific/china) for Amnesty International (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/a/amnesty_international/index.html?inline=nyt-org).
Although the propaganda juggernaut has eased in recent years, Falun Gong remains a toxic subject in China. Few academics will speak about it on the record, and the Internet is scoured clean of information that might be construed as sympathetic to Falun Gong, an amalgam of Buddhism, mysticism and qigong, the traditional exercise regimen that remains broadly popular here.
For the Falun Gong devotees who practice in secret, the only glimmer of hope has come from a small but growing number of lawyers who have dared to take on their cases. Even if the legal efforts have mostly come to naught, until recently Falun Gong detainees were denied even the right to a lawyer.
Last week, Jiang Yu, a spokesman for the Foreign Ministry, reiterated the government’s long-held stance that Falun Gong warrants suppression because it emphasizes meditation and the paranormal over modern medicine. “The Falun Gong cult violates human rights by controlling people’s minds,” he said in response to a reporter’s query.
Among experts based outside the country, there is broad consensus that the government’s efforts have not done much to advance its own interests, at least internationally, where it has been dogged by allegations that it uses torture to crush believers into submission.
‘The excesses and the savagery have really lowered the quality of the government and harmed its reputation abroad,” said Jerome Cohen, a member of the Council on Foreign Relations (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/c/council_on_foreign_relations/index.html?inline=nyt-org) and an expert on Chinese law. “They’re paying a high price for the cruelty to these people.”
According to Falun Gong followers and Chinese lawyers who take on their cases, that cruelty continues unabated.
Among those swept up in the purge were Yu Zhou, the musician, and his wife, Xu Na. They were stopped for speeding in January 2008, according to their lawyer. After the police found Falun Gong materials in their car, both were detained. Ten days later, Mr. Yu’s sister was told that he was gravely ill, the result, she was told, of a hunger strike complicated by diabetes. His sister, Yu Qun, says her brother did not have diabetes. She contends that he died at the hands of his captors.
The family’s efforts to investigate Mr. Yu’s death have been thwarted by the police and prosecutors, who refuse to allow an autopsy or even issue a death certificate.
Ms. Xu, who is a well-known poet and painter, was given a three-year term.
“I don’t understand why this happened to them because they didn’t do anything to break the law and they weren’t promoting the group,” Ms. Yu said.
According to former detainees and human rights organizations, Falun Gong detainees are frequently subjected to harrowing abuse, particularly those who refuse to swear off their faith. Bu Dongwei, 41, a longtime adherent who spent three years in a labor camp, said he was forced to share a room with about 30 people, most of them petty thieves and drug addicts who were encouraged to abuse the Falun Gong detainees.
Mr. Bu, a trained geneticist, left China in December and now lives in Los Angeles.
While the group’s initial goals were official legitimacy and an end to persecution, the ceaseless campaign against them has radicalized many adherents, especially those living outside China. In cities around the world, Falun Gong devotees — and their offbeat re-enactments of torture and gory visual aids — have become a common sight. The group has dedicated itself to the demise of the Communist Party, which has complicated the lives of adherents inside China.
Falun Dafa, the organization that oversees the movement from its headquarters in New York, is led by Li Hongzhi, a former grain clerk who began spreading his mystical brand of qigong in 1992 but fled China before the crackdown began. Once known for charismatic preaching, he has spent much of the past decade living a reclusive life in Queens.
David Ownby, the author of “Falun Gong and the Future of China,” said that Mr. Li and his followers may have made a tactical mistake by massing in Beijing, but that the Communist Party erred by interpreting their actions as a threat to its rule.
“If either side had played their cards more intelligently, Falun Gong could have been co-opted by the government,” said Mr. Ownby, who is a professor of East Asian studies at the University of Montreal. He added, “This horrific loss of life could have been avoided.”
Jonathan Ansfield contributed reporting.

Source:http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/28/world/asia/28china.html?em=&pagewanted=print

hskywalker
04-29-2009, 04:17 AM
CCP should read a historical case study about a the Roman persecution of a Judaic Messianic sect 2000 years ago and its outcome.

What is forbidden, makes it seductive.


Source:http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/28/world/asia/28china.html?em=&pagewanted=print
We have our own historical case, several ancient persecutions of buddhism goes quite successful and beneficial, increased state income and maintained secularism.
A late example will england's persecution of catholics, didn't do much bad either.

Mr Gently Benevolent
04-29-2009, 05:21 AM
We have our own historical case, several ancient persecutions of buddhism goes quite successful and beneficial, increased state income and maintained secularism.
A late example will england's persecution of catholics, didn't do much bad either.Are the Falun Gong that great a threat, they hardly look like the next Boxer rebellion.:)

tecumseh11
04-29-2009, 05:52 AM
The group has dedicated itself to the demise of the Communist Party, which has complicated the lives of adherents inside China.

And they wonder why they are banned?


BTW it is fairly obvious Falun Gong is not a nonpolitical movement.

ren0312
04-29-2009, 05:52 AM
CCP should read a historical case study about a the Roman persecution of a Judaic Messianic sect 2000 years ago and its outcome.

What is forbidden, makes it seductive.


Source:http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/28/world/asia/28china.html?em=&pagewanted=print


Someone should tell that to the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution.p-)

King of the Grey
04-29-2009, 08:47 AM
ah well, CCP being CCP, voice out your displease, clampdown. I don't think the govt. machine actually cares if they have a political agenda or not, since in their Politika 101, first sentence is "Thou Shalt Not Silence Your Critics. Thou Shalt Instead Put Them Into Gulags" -Stalin

Shuimo
04-29-2009, 09:14 AM
Falungong is simply an evil cult!
It has to be wiped out!

matthew.manhorn
04-29-2009, 10:11 AM
Falun Gong just displays the worst aspect of communism.

Most people in Hong Kong were educated in Christian / Catholic schools therefore they know the difference between a religion and a cult, thus ignoring the Falun Gong in Hong Kong.

Mainland Chinese are raised in a godless state therefore they tend to overreact against the FLG.

Most people in Hong Kong ignore the FLG protests on the streets.

Mr Gently Benevolent
04-29-2009, 10:17 AM
Falungong is simply an evil cult!
It has to be wiped out!Communism is an evil cult and we must free the Chinese people from the oppressive regime that is repressing their very souls.

R/cst
04-29-2009, 10:26 AM
Why is it evil?

Where is your religous tolerance?

china_police
04-29-2009, 10:42 AM
Falun Gong just displays the worst aspect of communism.

Most people in Hong Kong were educated in Christian / Catholic schools therefore they know the difference between a religion and a cult, thus ignoring the Falun Gong in Hong Kong.

Mainland Chinese are raised in a godless state therefore they tend to overreact against the FLG.

Most people in Hong Kong ignore the FLG protests on the streets.

No one react strongly aganist Falun Gong except the government.
Chinese citizens don't really care about them, as long they don't cause nuisence. A lot of Mainland Chinese people have seen Falun Gong practisoners protests overeas.

china_police
04-29-2009, 10:46 AM
Falun gong is a cult, not a normal religion.
And I serious doubt what Falun gong claims, human harvesting, the number of people quitting the CCP, with no credible source to back them up. Most of them are made up propaganda.

Ordie
04-29-2009, 12:37 PM
Mainland Chinese are raised in a godless state therefore they tend to overreact against the FLG.

Most people in Hong Kong ignore the FLG protests on the streets.

You have a good point.

Ironically by persecuting the Falun Gong, the CCP is inadvertantly promoting it both in and out of China.

No publicity is bad publicity.

deagle
04-29-2009, 01:39 PM
watever. if China determines to them to be "religious extremists", maybe they'd participate more in GWOT, we could use the help, and they could use the military experience.

Ordie
04-29-2009, 01:44 PM
watever. if China determines to them to be "religious extremists", maybe they'd participate more in GWOT, we could use the help, and they could use the military experience.

I would hardly call policy thuggery against people who sit and meditate military experience.

Henry's Fork
04-29-2009, 03:21 PM
Falun gong is a cult, not a normal religion.
And I serious doubt what Falun gong claims, human harvesting, the number of people quitting the CCP, with no credible source to back them up. Most of them are made up propaganda.

The CCP does forced abortions on the population, so why are their claims so far fetched?

For the record, the few FG people i have met dont seem like Taliban types. All religions are man made cults, big deal, some people need some fiction to carry on day to day. The CCP are just afraid of any group other than themselves weilding any sort of power or following. No surprises there.

china_police
05-01-2009, 05:37 AM
The CCP does forced abortions on the population, so why are their claims so far fetched?

For the record, the few FG people i have met dont seem like Taliban types. All religions are man made cults, big deal, some people need some fiction to carry on day to day. The CCP are just afraid of any group other than themselves weilding any sort of power or following. No surprises there.


I am not saying the CCP is doing a good thing, but this is still no reason for you to justify what Falun Gong claims must be trust.
Do you know even Amnesty International cannot confirm Falun Gong's so called "human harvesting" claims? I remembered there was a foreign investigation, even the Chinese government was involved on the hospitals that claimed to harvest human organs. It was proven to be false.
Moreover, to quit the CCP, an application must be sent to CCP itself. The so called claims are made up by FG groups with no endorsement at all.
We cannot base on hearsay, if we have not solid evidence to us them up. Even in court it would be inadmissible.

Ordie
05-01-2009, 09:21 AM
Moreover, to quit the CCP, an application must be sent to CCP itself.

Interesting.

What if your application to quit the CCP is denied? Does that mean your're stuck in the CCP forever? or get crappy assignments for trying to leave as punishment?

Given that the CCP has 73,360,000 members, I wonder how many leave the CCP without notice for other job opportunities?

Better yet, if there are better job opportunities in the private sector, why would anyone join the CCP in the first place?

King of the Grey
05-01-2009, 12:35 PM
haha true, CCP can always 'reject' your withdrawal application. But i've never heard of anyone officially apply to withdrawal...usually its the CCP evicting members out (mostly corrupt/inefficient officials)

The CCP, in the late 90s, made a decision, that in order to sustain the economic boom generated by the 'capitalist economic zones' in southern china without contradicting the main 'communist ideas', China is to develop its own brand of 'Communism'. The Chinese version, is where private entrepenurs CAN still be Communist members, so basically, there is no problem with working in the private sector and being a CCP member.

Falun Gong is just a cult, which i believe, made a stupid mistake of taking on the CCP. If the students n Beijing citizens in 1989 failed to even nudge the government through peaceful n legal demonstrations, what makes the FG think they can do it by calling over 10,000 followers literally SURROUNDING Zhongnanhai(the place where the State Ministry is in Beijing)??

china_police
05-01-2009, 12:35 PM
Interesting.

What if your application to quit the CCP is denied? Does that mean your're stuck in the CCP forever? or get crappy assignments for trying to leave as punishment?

Given that the CCP has 73,360,000 members, I wonder how many leave the CCP without notice for other job opportunities?

Better yet, if there are better job opportunities in the private sector, why would anyone join the CCP in the first place?

No, you have a clear understanding how CCP works.

Under Art 9 of the party constitution, members are free to withdrawn from the party. Moreover you do not pay member fee over a period of time your membership will be automatically cancelled. Your name will be then removed and no longer be able enjoy party priviledges.

It is actually not easy to apply for CCP membership, things like political background, party officals' recommedations, family, occupation, experience...etc will all be considered. Some applicants take years working in civil service before eligable admitted as a member. If you are no longer loyal to the party, very unlikely CCP will not let you quit.

Some people may want to quit, however they do not re-annouce their membership, at the same time don't want to give up members welfare. Until then they are still considered to be party members.

MZKT
05-01-2009, 01:33 PM
The CCP does forced abortions on the population, so why are their claims so far fetched?

When did CCP forced abortions?
I already imagine evil chinese doctors breaking into homes, and performing abortions on everything female theat don't run fast enough.

Jiggy
05-01-2009, 01:50 PM
When did CCP forced abortions?
I already imagine evil chinese doctors breaking into homes, and performing abortions on everything female theat don't run fast enough.

sounds about right, i came across this yesterday.


Forced abortions shake up China wombs-for-rent industry



In the southern Chinese city of Guangzhou, three young surrogate first-time mothers were discovered by authorities hiding in a communal flat.

Soon afterwards, district family planning and security officers broke into the flat, bundled them into a van and drove them to a district hospital where they were manhandled into a maternity ward, the mothers recounted to *******.

"I was crying 'I don't want to do this'," said a young woman called Xiao Hong, who was pregnant with four-month-old twins.

"But they still dragged me in and injected my belly with a needle," the 20-year-old told ******* of her ordeal which happened in late February.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090430/hl_nm/us_china_surrogacy_3

Ordie
05-01-2009, 02:38 PM
When did CCP forced abortions?
I already imagine evil chinese doctors breaking into homes, and performing abortions on everything female theat don't run fast enough.

China is not a country ruled by law. It is a country ruled by policy.

China is governed by a single-party top-down dictatorship. Ruled by an elite corps of selected Communist Party Members (Cadres).

This single party dictatorship is backed by a massive bureaucracy that formulates, and implements policy approved by the CCP.

If the CCP issues a policy mandate, in this case a single child policy, it is up to the cadres at the local level to implement and enforce the policy. The Central Govt. then sets an arbitrary set of quotas and goals for each of the local cadre to meet.

The CCP Cadre are rewarded and promoted by how he/she meets these quotas. Not how well they manage challenges and crisis.

Therefore there are cases where the local cadre, threatened by being overlooked for not meeting his/her quotas, will rush the abortions before the deadline of his/her personnel evaluation period. The same can be said about meeting economic goals by overlooking envorinmental impacts and work safety issues.

When the local citizentry get fed up, they turn to the central government for help through petitions. The petitioners would travel to Beijing to lobby for help, but in many cases it also present a major loss of face of the local party cadre and visibly challenges the CCP legitimacy to govern.

Therefore every effort is done to block the petitioners from getting to Beijing. Sometimes with hush money, threats or inprisonment.