SA-3 Hybrid

[Dinges]

I found these pics recently , and it has me flummoxed.

The first looks to me like an R-73 AAM with a booster rocket on a rail as if used for SAM duty.

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/2905/aa11r73.jpg


And the same for the next. At first glance I thought it was a Polish SA-3 "Neva" , but then I figured it was the same R-73 hybrid on a T-72 platform where the "Neva" is based on the T-55. So if you can point me in the right direction it would be much appreciated.

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/7251/sa3neva.jpg

[Echo300]

I've never heard of this before. I did find this, though: http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Missiles-And-Rockets-99/Serbs-used-R-60-and-R-73-air-to-air-missiles-as-light-SAMs.html

[Dinges]

Thanks Echo , that already helps a lot. I had it in the back of my mind it may have a Yugoslav conflict era origin.

[TheArmenian]

Unofficial: The dual missile system is called VIKTORINA

I can provide no further details.

[Dinges]

Thanks Armenian

[peter.pl]

Newa is based on WZT-1 chassis not on T-55 :)

[Dinges]

Newa is based on WZT-1 chassis not on T-55 :)

Even though the WZT-1 was derived from the T-55 as an ARV , thanks Peter , your info led me to the WZT-3 which could explain the T-72 chassis similarity as in the picture above.

[Dinges]

As the R-73 (the missile I believe is the missile in this regard) is IR guided I am just wondering if the R-73 has a lock-on after launch capability within its 60 degree seeker angle of acquisition.

Edit:
LOBL only. Probably slaved to SA-3's Low Blow radar to get within cone.

[peter.pl]

WZT-1 was based on T-55 chassis but that doesn't mean the WZT-1 chassic is that same what T-55. WZT-3 is based on T-72 and WZT-4 on PT-91.

[Dinges]

Got some info concerning the first pic.


Besides these standard systems, Serbian air-force units attempted to create improvised air-defense missiles for their bases using IR guided air-to-air missiles. The normal aircraft rail-launchers for R-60 (AA-8 Aphid) and R-73 (AA-11 Archer) were lashed on to ground mountings codenamed Pracka (Slingshot). Serbian sources later claimed that the R-73 launcher was successful, though there is little evidence to support this.http://pvo.guns.ru/combat/zaloga_kosovo.htm

[Echo300]

That's really cool. The air-defense systems put together by the various participants in the Balkans conflicts have always been really interesting to me.

Do you happen to know where the first pic was taken? Looks like some kind of parade. I can identify a Croatian flag and an Italian flag. Can't ID the others.

[Dinges]

Do you happen to know where the first pic was taken? Looks like some kind of parade. I can identify a Croatian flag and an Italian flag. Can't ID the others.

Unfortunately no. I can ID Croat , Italian , Hungarian , French and I think Danish flag. And it looks like there is some cyrillic writing in the background.

[Mordoror]

Hum those double systems could be a pain in the ass
think about the pilot : you are radar loked by a SA3, launch chaffs and take evasive actions increasing your engines exhausts if you "put on the pedals" to increase you jet power for better manover capability
while you are focused on the radar guided missile, you are locked by an IR missile
difficult to stay focused and take approriate actions-reactions against two different threats .....that can make you lose some precious seconds and proves ultimately deadly

[GazB]

Hum those double systems could be a pain in the ass
think about the pilot : you are radar loked by a SA3, launch chaffs and take evasive actions increasing your engines exhausts if you "put on the pedals" to increase you jet power for better manover capability
while you are focused on the radar guided missile, you are locked by an IR missile
difficult to stay focused and take approriate actions-reactions against two different threats .....that can make you lose some precious seconds and proves ultimately deadly

Also you lose speed and/or altitude evading the radar guided missile and then all of a sudden you find an IR guided missile on the way... at a time when you want to use AB to regain some energy/altitude/speed.

BTW I am looking at the two photos posted and I am thinking photoshop for the second. There is no way in the world that second photo is R-73, though the fins are correct. Either the missile on the SA-3 launcher is a modification of the Kh-29 with a TV guided optical head or this is BS. The SA-3 is a rather large missile and the R-73 is the size of a sidewinder but slightly fatter with a more powerful rocket motor. The R-73 weighs 105kgs, while the Kh-29 is 6 times heavier at about 600kgs. The SA-3 I can't find a weight without its booster, but the fact that the SA-3s warhead is 60kgs suggest it is a much larger missile than the R-73.

[GazB]

Perhaps instead of the R-73 on the booster next to the SA-3 they could use the TV guided Kh-29. It is similar to the weapon shown though a bit thicker, and it is TV guided and lockon before launch. If you can see a stealth bomber but can't get a radar lock then a TV guided weapon might be the solution... IIR probably an even better option.
One version of the TV guided Kh-29 (AS-14) has a range of about 30km so with a large solid rocket booster it should have a reasonable range. Would also be good for targeting very low flying targets that the radar guided SA-3 is no good for. Of course it would not be much use at engaging highly manouverable targets.

[Dinges]

BTW I am looking at the two photos posted and I am thinking photoshop for the second. There is no way in the world that second photo is R-73, though the fins are correct.

The SA-3 is a rather large missile and the R-73 is the size of a sidewinder but slightly fatter with a more powerful rocket motor.

The SA-3 I can't find a weight without its booster, but the fact that the SA-3s warhead is 60kgs suggest it is a much larger missile than the R-73.

Garry. It stands to reason that the S-125 is much bigger than the R-73. But I think it is to early to call it PS.

1.The R-73 measures at 2.9m and coveres half or less of the launcher rail ( let's forget the added booster ) and is in front hiding the bulk of the S-125.

2.The S-125 comes in at 6.7m , takes up the whole of the rail and extends it further than the R-73.

3.The R-73 weighs in at 105kg but is 43mm in diameter bigger than AIM-9 , so do not let that bias you.

4.The S-125 launch weight is 400kg which includes the substantial booster that can easily make up a third of the launch weight , and we can't see it.

So if you take all of these points in perspective it is possible.

This is not my picture so in no way do I need to defend it. I am just seeing it different.

[GazB]

Sorry, but a missile with a body diameter of 17cms or 170mms is still quite narrow.

In comparison the Kh-29 has a body diameter of 40cms or 400mms as shown here:

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/513/514/

And looks to me to be much more like the missile pictured. The length to width ratio looks more like a Kh-29 than an R-73:

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/504/


4.The S-125 launch weight is 400kg which includes the substantial booster that can easily make up a third of the launch weight , and we can't see it.No. The all up launch weight of the S-125 including booster is about 950kgs.

I think the image is fake. The missile is too fat to be an R-73 IMHO. It could be a Kh-29 but the fins look more like a blown up R-73 than Kh-29.

BTW details from the maker of the S-125 and its upgrades show updated electronics but no new IR missiles and neither the makers of the R-73 (above links) or S-125 (below) mention such a hybrid.

http://www.defensys.ru/vystavki_eng.html

[Dinges]

Obviously you have access to better sources of information than I do , so I will accede to your analysis.




BTW details from the maker of the S-125 and its upgrades show updated electronics but no new IR missiles and neither the makers of the R-73 (above links) or S-125 (below) mention such a hybrid.


As I mentioned earlier in the thread , there was an attempt by Serbian forces to assemble a similar system using the R-73 missile. So in regard to the second picture I also worked of the premise that such a system would come from somebody not connected to the original manufacturers.

[TheArmenian]

Prion,

You will get more info on this site.

http://talks.guns.ru/forummessage/71/311144.html

Unfortunately, my Russian is not good enough to provide you an accurate translation. Try an online translation.

[Dinges]

Armenian , kudos.

Gary was right on the PS on the second pic. But it looks like the basis premise of a R-73 SAM by the Serbians was no fallacy. They used not the Newa platform but the SA-6 GM-578 as a launcher.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/7100/slingshot.jpg

Thanks Armenian and Gary.

[GazB]

Gary was right on the PS on the second pic. But it looks like the basis premise of a R-73 SAM by the Serbians was no fallacy. They used not the Newa platform but the SA-6 GM-578 as a launcher.

The second photo just looked photoshopped to me. The first photo you showed was clearly not photoshopped. Whether they are actual weapons or just part of disinformation is another question. The Serbs were not stupid and their abilities in using what they had was impressive by anyones standards. Whether they actually got such a setup to work however is another question. Equally the point could be that it was never supposed to work in the first place and was just a ploy to try to get the NATO aircraft the raise the aircraft ceiling from 20,000 ft to avoid MANPADs to a higher level to avoid this system (whether it worked or not).

Regarding that last photo I think it might be photoshopped too. The brightness of the sunlight on the vehicle is much brighter than the sunlight on the missiles. Notice the sunlight on the missiles in the first image you posted. That seemed real. Even the makeshift launcher. In this last photo I can't believe it is natural for white painted missiles to reflect the sun less brightly than a green painted armoured vehicle.
The only photos I have seen of the R-73 with a booster rocket as a SAM have been on makeshift launchers and never on an SA-6 launcher. I think it is just a clever ploy to fool western experts into raising the flight level of NATO aircraft over Kosovo and Serbia.

Interesting pictures and subject though. Thanks for posting.