Saudi Arabia mulls marriage ban for girls under 18

[IraGlacialis]

Saudi Arabia mulls marriage ban for girls under 18

RIYADH (*******) – Saudi Arabia may ban marriage for girls below 18, a government minister said after a case of an eight-year old girl marrying a man more than 40 years her senior drew international criticism and embarrassed the kingdom.
"Among the options that are available and excluding the issue of puberty, is to ban marriage for (people) under 18," Justice Minister Mohammed al-Eissa told Asharq al-Awsat newspaper.
He was responding to a question about his ministry's plan to deal with the marriage of young girls.
"A girl below 18 is often not fit to take the family responsibility especially if she quickly gives birth (after marriage)," he said.
Saudi Arabia is a patriarchal society that applies an ascetic form of Sunni Islam which bans unrelated men and women from mixing and gives fathers the right to wed their sons and daughters to whomever they deem fit.
Many Saudi clerics, including the kingdom's chief cleric Grand Mufti Sheikh Abdul-Aziz Al al-Sheikh, endorse the practice of marrying underage girls, arguing that in doing so they avoid spinsterhood or the temptation of engaging in relationships outside the wedlock.
A 50-year old man in the small Saudi town of Onaiza agreed this week to divorce his eight year-old bride.
Financial considerations could prompt some Saudi families to wed their underage daughters to much older men.
Many young girls in Arab countries that observe tribal traditions are married to older husbands but not before puberty. Such marriages are also driven by poverty in countries like Yemen, one of the poorest countries outside Africa.
(Reporting by Souhail Karam; Editing by Jason Benham)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090504/od_nm/us_marriage

[Conman]

I have always wondered if there is a scientific reason that 18 was pegged as the age that one becomes an adult(psychologically, cognitively, or physically)?

Though more likely it is just a number some bureaucrat pulled out of his ass, and has since become to standard by way of default.

[Lazy Lob]

I once mulled my whine. It took the youth right out of it.

[Rudolph]

18-21 is a good age. 18, Because you finish high school, 21 because you can sign contracts and own property ( in South Africa ). Girls may have *** at 16 already though, because they are considered to be more mature.

[gazell]

I once mulled my whine. It took the youth right out of it.

roflroflroflroflNuts. One correct answer though. I know not what to say beyond that.

[rOjOdogg]

At what age do girls reach puburty, it varies from girl to girl, 8 to 13 years of age, for boys it takes longer, that is the Physical side, maturity it takes longer for some depending on where they grow up, for most Mexican girls they are very mature by the age of 11 because they grow up in large families and it is thier responsibility to look after and take care of thier younger siblings. So who ever came up with this magical age of 18 is an idiot!!!! In the USA you can join the military and go kill and be killed at 17, but you are not old enough to drink until 21????? and now in Mexico they have change the age of consent to 18 making half of the males in Mexico felons. Why do they come up with these stupid laws? But I agree I dont want 8 year olds getting married in my country but I am not about to interfear or pass judgement on another countries laws of traditions, one of the problems we have in the world today is other countries trying to force thier morals and values on other countries.

[Rudolph]

Let me try... I once parted ways with a porcupine, it hurt like hell.

[Octavariable]

"Among the options that are available and excluding the issue of puberty, is to ban marriage for (people) under 18," Justice Minister Mohammed al-Eissa told Asharq al-Awsat newspaper.



why is the word "people" in there? could somebody have accidentaly thougt it was reffering to animals? or rocks? or trees?
no really, WTF?

[Rudolph]

why is the word "people" in there? could somebody have accidentaly thougt it was reffering to animals? or rocks? or trees?
no really, WTF?

Maybe the idea of letting something under 18 marry other than animals

[gazell]

Marriage or *** under certain age is not banned for animals, you see, sheep and dogs one year or so. I don't know really, bad phrasing that you spotted most hopefully.:)

[SoSo]

Seventeen year olds getting married isn't the problem. It's not that people are marrying too young, it's that there's too much of an age difference between the husband and wife. The Saudis would do better to pass a law requiring couples to be close to the same age. And we Americans should compel the FLDS to agree to this also.

[little icebear]

for most Mexican girls they are very mature by the age of 11 because they grow up in large families and it is thier responsibility to look after and take care of thier younger siblings. So who ever came up with this magical age of 18 is an idiot!!!!

Good lord... must have been the swine-flu...

[seraosha]

"(3309) ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She too hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have shared in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him." Sahih Muslim vol.2 book 8 ch.548 no.3309 p.715-716

Married at 6, living with husband at 9.
There is no way that Saudi is going to outlaw marriage before 18, because that would cast doubt on their Prophets behavior.
It's just not going to happen.

[Vettec]

Married at 6, living with husband at 9.
There is no way that Saudi is going to outlaw marriage before 18, because that would cast doubt on their Prophets behavior.
It's just not going to happen.


Please not with the same married at 6 Story again, its amazing how people like to refer to one source and ignore all other sources just as long as it can help them push their own agenda. This is one tradition were the narator himself is under question, while many other traditions and historical facts contradict with that story, most of them put her age around 18 years of age when she was married, here a few of them:





1. Several books of Hadith (Al-Bukhari and Al-Muslim, Abu Dawood, among others) and Islamic history (Tabari, among others) report that Ayesha was married to the Prophet at 6 but her marriage was not consummated until she was 9. Although, this information is widely quoted and found in many Hadith and history books, it must be noted that most of this information has come from a single person, Hisham bin Urwah, who is the last narrator of this Hadith Isnaad (chain of narration) on the authority of his father. Thus, this Hadith is primarily a single Hadith. Some other narratives mention the same Hadith but their narration has been found weak and unacceptable. In general, a Hadith has more credibility if it is narrated by more people independently from diverse chains of narrators. In this case, there is basically only one source.

2. Despite the abundance of information available during the 71 years that Hisham bin Urwah lived and taught in Medina, it is rather odd that that no one else?not even his famous pupil Malik ibn Anas---reported Ayesha’s age from Hisham in Medina. Furthermore, all the narrators of this Hadith were Iraqis. Hisham is reported to have moved to Iraq in his later years. An extensive list of biographical sketches of all narrators including these Iraqis is available in some books.

3. Yaqub ibn Shaibah is reported to have said, “narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". Malik ibn Anas (d. 795), a student of Hisham in fact discredited all narratives of Hisham that were reported through people of Iraq.

(Tehzibu'l-tehzib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh), vol 11, pg 48 - 51).

4. It is reported that Hisham bin Urwah’s memory suffered in his later years to the extent that some of the traditions reported from Hisham bin Urwah could not be trusted for authenticity.
(Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, by Al-Zahbi , Arabic, a book on the life sketches of the narrators of the Hadith, Al-Maktabatu'l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol 4, pg 301).

5. Even though Ayesha is reported to have been born about eight years before Hijrah (around 614 A.D.), one can find another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) whereby Ayesha is reported to have said that she was a ‘young girl’ at the time of revelation of the 54th chapter of the Qur'an which came 9 years before Hijrah (around 612 A.D). Thus, according to this tradition, Ayesha was a young girl (Jariyah?as she calls herself and not an infant in which case she would be sibyah). Additionally, this narrative stands in direct contrast to the one reported on Ayesha’s age by Hisham bin Urwah. This puts Ayesha’s age significantly higher than 9 as reported by Hisham bin Urwah?possibly 15 or even higher. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear
contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham
ibn Urwah. There is no compelling reason as to why this tradition should be considered less accurate vis-à-vis Hisham’s narrative).

(Sahih Bukhari, kitabu'l-tafsir, Arabic, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-sa`atu Maw`iduhum wa'l-sa`atu adha' wa amarr).

6. According to many narratives, Ayesha participated in the battles of Badr and Uhud. No one older than 15 was allowed to accompany the Prophet’s army in the battle of Uhud. This applied across the board to all participants, men and women alike. The battle of Uhud took place around the 2nd Hijrah, a time line close to her marriage with the Prophet. Obviously, she was at least older than 15 at that time.


7. A narrative regarding Ayesha's participation in the battle of `Uhud is given in Bukhari, (Kitabu'l-jihad wa'l-siyar, Arabic, Bab Ghazwi'l-nisa' wa qitalihinna ma`a'lrijal; that all boys under 15 were sent back is given in Bukhari, Kitabu'l-maghazi, Bab ghazwati'l-khandaq wa hiya'l-ahza'b, Arabic).

8. Most historians have consensus on the age of one of the oldest female companions of the Prophet, namely, Asma, the elder sister of Ayesha that was ten years older than Ayesha. It is also reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma died in 73 Hijrah when she was 100 years old. Clearly, if Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of Hijrah, Ayesha was 17 at the time of Hijrah and 19 at the time of consummation of her marriage with Muhammad.

(For Asma being 10 years older than Ayesha, see A`la'ma'l-nubala', Al-Zahabi, Vol 2, Pg 289, Arabic, Mu'assasatu'l-risalah, Beirut, 1992. Ibn Kathir confirms this fact, [Asma] was elder to her sister [Ayesha] by ten years" (Al-Bidayah wa'l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol 8, Pg 371, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933). For Asma being 100 years old, see Al-Bidayah wa'l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol 8, Pg 372, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933). Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani also has the same information: "She [Asma (ra)] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH." Taqribu'l-tehzib, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, Pg 654, Arabic, Bab fi'l-nisa', al-harfu'l-alif, Lucknow).

9. Tabari informs in his treatise on Islamic history that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the pre Islamic period. The pre-Islamic period ended in 610 A.D, a fact that makes Ayesha to be at least 14 years of age at the time of her marriage around 613-624 A.D.
Tarikhu'l-umam wa'l-mamlu'k, Al-Tabari, Vol 4, Pg 50, Arabic, Dara'l-fikr, Beirut, 1979).

10. Ibn Hisham, the historian, reports that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before `Umar ibn al-Khattab which only means that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam close to the time of first revelation (around 610 A.D). This means she must have been at least a young girl at that time. Assuming she was barely 6 or 7 at that time this information puts the age of Ayesha at 20 or more at the time of her marriage with Muhammad (623-624 A.D.), (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, vol 1, Pg 227 – 234 and 295, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh).

11. Tabari reports that before migrating to Habashah, Abu Bakr planned to hand over his daughter, Ayesha to Mut’am’s son to whom she was engaged. But fearing persecution by the Quraish, Mut’am refused and his son divorced Ayesha. The migration to Habashah happened 8 years before Hijra. Obviously, at the time she was ready to take on responsibilities as a wife (possibly 9 or 10 years of age). If she married Muhammad in the 2nd Hijrah (623-624 A.D), she could not be less than 19 years of age (a secondary reference for this argument is: Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat, Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi, Urdu, Pg 38, Anjuman Uswa e hasanah, Karachi, Pakistan).

12. A famous Sunni imam, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, reports in His Musnad, that after the death of Khadijah, Khaulah came to the Prophet (pbuh) and advised him to marry again. She had two propositions for the Prophet: Either Muhammad could marry a virgin (bikr), or he could go for woman who had already been married (thayyib)". Khaulah named Ayesha for a virgin (bikr). It is common knowledge that the term bikr in the Arabic language refers to a well formed lady and not to a 9 year old, playful, immature lass. If she were nine, the word used by Khaulah would have been jariyah and not bikr.
(Musnad, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol 6, Pg 210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut).


13. Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani has reported that Fatimah, Muhammad’s daughter, was five years older than Ayesha and that Fatimah was born when the Prophet was 35 years old. Thus, Ayesha, according to Ibn Hajar, was born when Muhammad was 40 and consummated her marriage when he was 54 or 55. That makes Aysha at least 15-16 years of age.
(Al-isabah fi tamyizi'l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol 4, Pg 377, Arabic, Maktabatu'l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh,1978)

[Lazy Lob]

Please not with the same married at 6 Story again, its amazing how people like to refer to one source and ignore all other sources just as long as it can help them push their own agenda. This is one tradition were the narator himself is under question, while many other traditions and historical facts contradict with that story, most of them put her age around 18 years of age when she was married, here a few of them:

It is incredible isn’t it? Even you yourself pick and chose which versions or stories to believe and which ones to discard. The proof you point at always starts as “it is reported that....................”. But who the hell is doing the reporting? That’s not proof, its faith nothing more. Your faith.

[tercio67]

The Islamic Marriage Contract

Required elements for a legal Islamic marriage

......A first-time bride is usually represented in the contract negotiations by her Wali, a male guardian who looks out for her best interests. Even so, the bride must also express her willingness to enter into marriage. Consent cannot be obtained from those who are legally unable to give it, i.e. people who are incapacitated, minor children, and those who have physical or mental impairments which limit their capacity to understand and consent to a legal contract.......

Full article;
http://islam.about.com/od/marriage/a/contract.htm

It would seem that consent is needed and minor children can not give it.
So when is one considered no longer a minor in SA?

[ggk]

Married at 6, living with husband at 9.
There is no way that Saudi is going to outlaw marriage before 18, because that would cast doubt on their Prophets behavior.
It's just not going to happen.


pfffftttt now at six? it seems the number are getting lower....lol

[ggk]

My thesis here in mp.net

#11 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3783092&postcount=11)
#12 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3783103&postcount=12)
#13 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3783117&postcount=13)

[Lazy Lob]

My thesis here in mp.net

#11 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3783092&postcount=11)
#12 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3783103&postcount=12)
#13 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3783117&postcount=13)

A thesis on faith? Reminds me of the punishment I was once dished, write an essay on the inside of a ping-pong ball.

[ggk]

he he he read it and light will bright your way........

[spider1]

LOL i read in a news site that a 9 years old girl in Saudi divorced hehe in what age they get married there? 5? The US needs to promote democracy in that country!

[Vandervahn]

I have always wondered if there is a scientific reason that 18 was pegged as the age that one becomes an adult(psychologically, cognitively, or physically)?

Though more likely it is just a number some bureaucrat pulled out of his ass, and has since become to standard by way of default.

It is an arbitrarily set date for ease of use, but nevertheless based on hard scientific knowledge. Behavioural and developmental psychology can rather unanimously point to certain development stages every young person goes through, and that mostly within comparable timeframes.

18ish is the age when most people have reached full awareness of themselves and the mechanics of the world around them. That doesnt mean they draw the right conclusions at first, but they have the intellectual and cognitive ability to do so.

[XShipRider]

18 is a good age, ask Woody Allen.

[Soldat_Américain]

This is nothing like the Yemeni girl who was married at like two...

Nojoud Muhammed Nasser arrived at court by herself on Wednesday, April 2, looking for a judge to handle her case against her father, Muhammed Nasser, who forced her two months ago to marry Faez Ali Thamer, a man 22 years her senior. The child also asked for a divorce, accusing her husband of ****** and domestic abuse.
http://www.yementimes.com/article.shtml?i=1145&p=front&a=2
Can't find the original story that I read, but she was married at like Six maybe, and got a divorce at eight, she had said she was just happy to go back to school.

[seraosha]

Please not with the same married at 6 Story again, its amazing how people like to refer to one source and ignore all other sources just as long as it can help them push their own agenda.

What agenda is that?
That SA isn't going to make marriages between children and old men illegal?
It's not going to happen...they will make some noises for the West, then give the ok in Arabic. It's their country, their faith, their culture, their responsibility to do the right thing.

But when they try it in a country where it's illegal, come down on them like a ton of bricks, throw the pedophiles in jail, and hopefully rescue the poor little girls and get them into school where they belong, not in a harem.

My copy of the Q'uran and Hadith come from CAIR, so if you have a problem with their English translations take it up with them. The copy+paste in my initial post came from a legitimate Islamic site.

[jokuvaan]

In a related story:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Child-Bride-In-Yemen-Dies-While-Giving-Birth-To-Baby-Siyaj-Human-Rights-Organisation-Says/Article/200909215380600


A 12-year-old child bride has died after struggling to give birth to a baby for three days, a human rights organisation in Yemen has said.


The country's parliament passed a law in February which set the minimum age for marriage at 17 but it was sent back to a constitutional committee for review after some MPs described it as "un-Islamic".

[sheytanelkebir]

so, basically the iraqis made up the whole 9 year old story to dis mo.

no wonder they hated the old paedo's guts. he fekin destroyed iraq the beduin dog.

[hulaku]

so, basically the iraqis made up the whole 9 year old story to dis mo.

no wonder they hated the old paedo's guts. he fekin destroyed iraq the beduin dog.

I dont get your point. Who are you referring to?

[sheytanelkebir]

I dont get your point. Who are you referring to?
"prophet" mohamed.

[IraGlacialis]

"prophet" mohamed.
And how did he destroy Iraq (which didn't even exist back then)?

[3rdMillhouse]

Isn't Saudi Arabia the same Saudi Arabia whereas, if you're a woman and you get raped, then you have to provide the justice with 4 eyewitnesses in order to prosecute the rapist, otherwise you're tried for adultery?

[ggk]

Hudud law... thats pretty much hows everyone think...yeah.
........ and its true to some extent.

what i meant is its like reading one paragraph of a decagogy of law books and then write a review on the book.

[hulaku]

Hudud law... thats pretty much hows everyone think...yeah.
........ and its true to some extent.

what i meant is its like reading one paragraph of a decagogy of law books and then write a review on the book.

I know there is a Hudud ordinance in place in Pakistan.

Is this the case in Malaysia as well?

[ggk]

I know there is a Hudud ordinance in place in Pakistan.

Is this the case in Malaysia as well?

no not in malaysia. Rapist were charged under the seksyen 375 Kanun Kesiksaan


Kanun Keseksaan (Penal Code)
Kanun Acara Jenayah (Criminal Procedure Code)
Civil Law and not Shariah Law.

That said. Regarding hudud... the due process are the same with the Penal Code...(if implemented) For example DNA test and forensic are excepted....it was something called Qarinah.

I dont know how Pakistan or Saudis implement their Hudud....though.

[sheytanelkebir]

And how did he destroy Iraq (which didn't even exist back then)?
you mean didn;t exist within its 1920 demarcated borders?

or

didn't exist as in no cities or people (and called "iraq" as it was called in the pre-arab period too...)???

[IraGlacialis]

you mean didn;t exist within its 1920 demarcated borders?
This part.

In any case.
Mohammad never conquered Mesopotamia.
Baghdad was founded after Islam was established and became one of the most powerful and advanced entities at the time.

[Hispeed1]

Its about time-hope it happens.

[sheytanelkebir]

This part.

In any case.
Mohammad never conquered Mesopotamia.
Baghdad was founded after Islam was established and became one of the most powerful and advanced entities at the time.

it was founded on the ruins of qisra seleucia uruk hira etc...