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Parachutist
05-06-2009, 12:52 AM
Does any one know if the P-51 Mustangs were used to fight the Japanese in Indonesia during WW2.

If they were used in Indonesia, could the person please name the squardons in Indonesia. Were they American or Indonesian air force planes?

This is because I saw a P-51 (I think, but I may be wrong) being displayed in Surabaya.

Thank you.

karbol
05-06-2009, 01:28 AM
^^AFAIK, there are no mustang being used to fight Japs during WW2 in Indonesia. When Japanese came in to Dutch Indies (indonesia) the fighter that stationed in Indonesia were P-40, Brewster Buffalo and Bomber B-17 and B-10. those planes were operated by ABDA.

mustang enter indonesia, after the declaration of Independence of indonesia in Aug 17th 45. The mustang (along with P-40) were use by British and (mostly) by the Dutch to fight Indonesian freedom fighter. after the roundtable negotiation, Mustang were given to Indonesia Air Forces. in Indonesia Airforces, the Mustang enter the 3rd Squadron.

here some of the pics i've taken in Satria Mandala Museum in Jakarta.

http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp44/barong1978/PICT1193dotjpg

http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp44/barong1978/PICT1197dotjpg

http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp44/barong1978/PICT1194dotjpg

http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp44/barong1978/PICT1195dotjpg

Parachutist
05-06-2009, 01:36 AM
Karbol

Thank you for your kind posts. That explains why there are P-51 Mustangs in Indonesia.

I am surprised the British and the Dutch used the Mustangs, because these are American fighters.

Can you please confirm that the British used them?

Thank you once again.

Parachutist
05-06-2009, 01:46 AM
Can some one tell me what does the 'P' in P-51 stands for?

I know B is for Bomber as in B-17, 'F' for Fighter as in F-16,

'A' for Attack as in A-4, 'C' for Cargo as in C-130, 'T' for Trainer as in T-33.

Thank you.

OldCode
05-06-2009, 01:50 AM
'P' is for 'Pursuit' I believe. As in pursuit fighter.

karbol
05-06-2009, 01:59 AM
Karbol

Thank you for your kind posts. That explains why there are P-51 Mustangs in Indonesia.

I am surprised the British and the Dutch used the Mustangs, because these are American fighters.

Can you please confirm that the British used them?

Thank you once again.

well...i'm not sure that the british used them. but i'm sure the mustang were operated by Dutch...

i gave you link, that show Mustang with Dutch marking in Indonesia:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Netherlands---Air/North-American-P-51D/1315961/L/&tbl=&photo_nr=14&sok=&sort=&prev_id=1315962&next_id=1315960

more pics about mustang in Indonesia:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Indonesia---Air/North-American-P-51D/1176013/L/

LineDoggie
05-06-2009, 02:04 AM
Karbol

Thank you for your kind posts. That explains why there are P-51 Mustangs in Indonesia.

I am surprised the British and the Dutch used the Mustangs, because these are American fighters.

Can you please confirm that the British used them?

Thank you once again.


P for Pursuit, I for Interceptor, A for Attack, etc. in 1947 the newly formed USAF renamed all fighter aircraft as F series F-51D/K, F-47D/M etc.

by the way no P-51H/F-51H ever saw Combat

And the Mustang was originally designed by North American Aviation for a British Contract.

In 1940 the BPC British Purchasing Commission came to the USA to arrange for production of various Aircraft & Tanks for its forces. The wanted NAA to produce the Curtiss P-40, but Dutch Kindleburger said they could do better.

The Original Mustang I went to the RAF but as it had Allison engines wasnt useful for high altitude work until NAA tried a Packard Merlin engine- the rest was history.

Side note, the BPC wanted the Matilda A12 Produced, but we said no and gave them the Lee-Grant & Sherman instead

Heres the RAF Squadrons which used the Mustang

65 Squadron (YT) December, 1943 (Transitioned to Mustang IV- February, 1945)

122 Squadron (MT) January, 1944

19 Squadron (QV) March, 1944 (Transitioned to Mustang IV- March, 1945)

306 Squadron (Polish) (UZ) March, 1944

315 Squadron (Polish) (PK) March, 1944 129 Squadron (DV) April, 1944

316 Squadron (Polish) (SZ) April, 1944

541 Squadron June, 1944- 541 flew a mix of Spitfire PR XI's, XIX’s and Mustang III's

234 Squadron (AZ) September, 1944 (Transitioned to Mustang IV- March, 1945)

309 Squadron (Polish) (WC) October, 1944

64 Squadron (SH) November, 1944 126 Squadron (5J) December, 1944

165 Squadron (SK) January, 1945 118 Squadron (NK) February, 1945

611 Squadron (FY) March, 1945 (Mustang IV)

303 Squadron (Polish) (RF/PD) April, 1945 (Mustang IV)

441 Squadron RCAF (9G) April, 1945

442 Squadron RCAF

20 aircraft made a Squadron

Dr_ColoSSus
05-06-2009, 02:18 AM
Australia also produced the Mustang under license during WW2. They were used against the Japanese.

TheKiwi
05-06-2009, 02:53 AM
AFAIK the last Mustangs to see combat were with the Honduras Air Force during the 1969 Football War. But they were P-51D's, not H's.

[WDW]Megaraptor
05-06-2009, 03:38 AM
AFAIK the last Mustangs to see combat were with the Honduras Air Force during the 1969 Football War. But they were P-51D's, not H's.

The last P-51s in service with an air force were P-51Ds with the Dominican Republic that were finally retired in 1984.

During the 1970s they were still scrambling to intercept Cuban MiGs that got too close to the Dominican coast.

Oddly enough the last P-51 lost in combat was shot down by ground fire by Dominican rebels in 1965, shortly before the US invasion of the Dominican Republic.

Parachutist
05-06-2009, 03:55 AM
Thank you for all the posts.

BTW, what does 'AFAIK' stand for?

Thanks

click
05-06-2009, 04:12 AM
"As Far As I Know"

Parachutist
05-06-2009, 04:17 AM
Thanks Click

Engine Mech
05-06-2009, 05:00 AM
The P51 in the RNZAF museum is an ex Indonesian Cavalier Mustang.

strumbird
05-06-2009, 09:39 AM
Australia also produced the Mustang under license during WW2. They were used against the Japanese.

The CA-18 Mustang they produced never saw combat during WWII. The CA-17 Mustang they assembled from NAA parts never saw combat either.

Eoin666
05-06-2009, 11:12 AM
Karbol

Thank you for your kind posts. That explains why there are P-51 Mustangs in Indonesia.

I am surprised the British and the Dutch used the Mustangs, because these are American fighters.

Can you please confirm that the British used them?

Thank you once again.


Try the old google or wiki

The RAF was the first air force to operate the P-51 which was originally designed to meet RAF requirements. The first Mustang Mk.Is (P-51As) entered service in 1941, wearing the standard RAF fighter markings. Due to poor high-altitude performance, the Mustangs were soon transferred to Army co-operation and fighter reconnaissance duties. On 27 July 1942, 16 RAF Mustangs undertook their first long-range reconnaissance mission over Germany. During Operation Jubilee, the Dieppe Raid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieppe_Raid) (19 August 1942), four British and Canadian Mustang squadrons, including No. 26 Squadron RAF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._26_Squadron_RAF)V-1 flying bomb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-1_flying_bomb) sites. The final RAF Mustang Mk.I and Mustang Mk.IIMustang Mk.III (P-51B/C) machines, the first units converting to the type in late 1943/1944. Mustang Mk.III units were operational until the end of World War II, though many units had already converted to the Mustang Mk.IV, or (P-51D/K). RAF pilots preferred the Mustang Mk.III (with Malcolm hood),[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] but the RAF re-equipped with Mustang Mk.IVs. As the Mustang was a Lend-Lease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease) type, all aircraft still on RAF charge at the end of the war were either returned to the USAAF "on paper" or retained by the RAF for scrapping. The final Mustangs were retired from RAF use in 1947.

RAF production figs


Mustang Mk.I: 620 built
Mustang Mk.III: 852 built
Mustang Mk.IV: 281 built
Mustang Mk.IVA: 595 built




During WWII, the aircraft of all types were used by various allied nations, RAF used, P-51, P-47, F-4 (Navy), B-17, B-24, B-25 etc etc. USAAF also had a few Spitfires, and nightfighter Mosquitoes.

JCR
05-06-2009, 01:48 PM
There was also one incident in 1958 where an indonesian P-51 shot down a CIA B-26...
:cantbeli:

LineDoggie
05-06-2009, 03:42 PM
Eoin 666

Here's one for ya

VCS-7 (US Navy) used Spitfire Mk Vb from 6 June 44 till July 44 operationally for Naval Gunfire Spotting

Parachutist
05-06-2009, 09:24 PM
Thank you every one for your contributions.

Now everything is clear about the P-51 Mustangs.

EasyC
05-06-2009, 09:59 PM
Megaraptor;4108410']The last P-51s in service with an air force were P-51Ds with the Dominican Republic that were finally retired in 1984.

During the 1970s they were still scrambling to intercept Cuban MiGs that got too close to the Dominican coast.


lol wow....how would you be piloting one of those P-51s.

karbol
05-07-2009, 02:06 AM
Thank you every one for your contributions.

Now everything is clear about the P-51 Mustangs.

more information about Indonesian P-51D, please visit this forum: http://www.indoflyer.net/forum/tm.asp?m=322810

ColinP
05-07-2009, 02:51 AM
Apparently the P-51 was not the best choice for ground attack due to the exposed rad/oil cooler

Kilgor
05-07-2009, 03:04 AM
liquid cooled block vs the radial engine of the jug.

LineDoggie
05-07-2009, 03:45 AM
Not to mention the T-Bolt had 8 X.50's vs. 6 for the Stang

One can imagine the carnage that would cause along a Falaise country lane packed with troops, horses, vehicles.......

Kopassus
05-07-2009, 06:52 AM
There was also one incident in 1958 where an indonesian P-51 shot down a CIA B-26...
:cantbeli:
Oya, Lt.Allen Lawrence Pope shot down by capt .Ignatius Dewanto i taught...woot

Stage Three
05-07-2009, 08:24 AM
I think that the TNI-AU (Indonesian Air Force) P-51 vs the CIA B-26 incident was discussed in the forums before. The Indonesian Air Force Museum in Yogyakarta still had some of Pope's items, well at lest it did in 2000. Ken Conboy wrote a very good book about US involvement supporting Indonesia PRRI/Permesta rebels in the 1950s.

JCR
05-07-2009, 01:28 PM
Actually the museum in Indonesia has a whole lot of quite interesting japanese aircraft (Zeroes, Oscars etc) on display, as they were used by the Indonesians against the dutch after WW2.
Most of those are the last of their kind...

Re the Mustang, the plane was designed and built for the RAF at first.
The original idea for the Mustang was that the RAF wanted a US build plane to replace the Curtiss Tomahawk/Kittyhawk (P-40)
However, when the Mustang was ready in mid 1942, there were almost enough Spitfires to go around and the first Allison Mustangs delivered to the UK were relegated to low level reconaissance with former army cooperation squadrons.
The conversion from Biplanes or Lysanders to the Mustang must've been a bit shocking for the pilots...

NavyTimes
05-07-2009, 01:36 PM
lol wow....how would you be piloting one of those P-51s.

With care and great style. p-)

The mustang is a wonderful bird.

strumbird
05-07-2009, 03:03 PM
Apparently the P-51 was not the best choice for ground attack due to the exposed rad/oil cooler

Agreed. It makes me wonder why the USAF did not use the F-47 Thunderbolt in Korea.

JCR
05-07-2009, 03:14 PM
Logistics.
The F-51s were allready in theater, the planes used formerly by the 5th Air Force in Japan.
When North Korea invaded, over 300 F-51Ds were standing around on various airfields in Japan, used only for target towing and training.
The squadrons had recently converted to F-80s (some converted back!) the rest of the Mustangs allready in Japan were simply used up.
F-47s, on the other hand, were strewn all over the continental US in ANG squadrons or were rusting away in Boneyards or being scrapped, except for a few exported to Latin America.
I don't know why the Thunderbolt was so quickly retired after WW2, but fact is that the plane was definitely on the way out. Spares would've been a problem too.
Also keep in mind that the late variant high performance "Jugs" (Ms and Ns) were not as heavily built as the D models, so they would've been not much more useful than Mustangs.
Putting together even one operational Thunderbolt squadron would've taken much of an effort in 1950.
Mustangs were ready and available.
Later, the USN and USMC had so many Corsairs to take over CAS that the USAF could leave CAS mostly to them, and the late corsairs were much better attack planes than the Thunderbolt, not to mention the Skyraider.

VOCer
05-11-2009, 11:28 PM
There was also one incident in 1958 where an indonesian P-51 shot down a CIA B-26...
:cantbeli:
An Indonesian aircraft shot down an American?
Then they were very lucky...

[WDW]Megaraptor
05-12-2009, 07:53 AM
An Indonesian aircraft shot down an American?
Then they were very lucky...

An American on a black op. When he was shot down the government denied they employed him and claimed he was a private mercenary.

JCR
05-12-2009, 08:51 AM
Why lucky?
Are Indonesians inherently worse Pilots than Americans?
Sorry but if one flies a Mustang (a fighter) and the other one a B-26 (a bomber), the outcome is pretty much certain, especially if the bomber has no defensive turrets.

VOCer
05-12-2009, 11:16 AM
Why lucky?
Are Indonesians inherently worse Pilots than Americans?
Sorry but if one flies a Mustang (a fighter) and the other one a B-26 (a bomber), the outcome is pretty much certain, especially if the bomber has no defensive turrets.
Im just suprised, cause its not often that a poor third world country gets the chance to shoot down an American warplane.

JCR
05-12-2009, 11:56 AM
In a nutshell, the story goes like that:
Sukharno, the first ruler of independent Indonesia was suspected of being a closet commie (in fact he was something of a mixture between national socialist and Roosevelt style new dealer). After the US ambassador to Indonesia wrote home that he was not a commie, the ambassador was replaced by someone who allready knew he was a commie before he ever set foot on indonesian soil.
The relatively new CIA cooked up a military revolt on Sumatra, which fizzled out pretty soon.
This was "supported" (long after the real revolt had been put down) by a CIA air force of B-26s operating from the Phillipines that tried to win the hearts and minds of indonesians by indiscriminately bombing and strafing trains and ships all across the various islands, killing a lot of people (over a thousand apparently).
During one of those missions, one of the alledged "Rebel" B-26s was caught by a "real" indonesian Mustang as it bombed and strafed a ship.
The B-26 was shot down and very unfortunately for the CIA the pilot did not only survive, but also had more than enough ID cards on him to tie him to the US government.
The upshot of the whole affair was that Indonesia REALLY turned into the soviet orbit, allbeit only for a short time.

Tunasa
05-12-2009, 06:51 PM
And that was why we got several C-130Bs right?

Kopassus
05-13-2009, 05:20 AM
And that was why we got several C-130Bs right?
13 C-130Bs and one other aircraft, we had to pay for it , but we got a big diskon.

junglejim
05-13-2009, 05:43 AM
Im just suprised, cause its not often that a poor third world country gets the chance to shoot down an American warplane.


Piston engined aircrafts are much cheaper to maintain and operate than jet planes. So pilot can easily obtain superior flying and fighting skills without much cost. So back then a P-51 mustang in the hands of a well trained pilot from a third world nation could be at par with an American P-51 pilot very easily.

Mind you the Philippine Army Air Corp, shutdown Japanese Zeroes using P-26 Peashooters. I doubt such discrepancy in aircraft technology would have the same results now.

[WDW]Megaraptor
05-13-2009, 07:36 AM
Mind you the Philippine Army Air Corp, shutdown Japanese Zeroes using P-26 Peashooters. I doubt such discrepancy in aircraft technology would have the same results now.

Shut down is a bit of an exaggeration...downed a few yes, but not shut down.

VOCer
05-14-2009, 07:11 AM
13 C-130Bs and one other aircraft, we had to pay for it , but we got a big diskon.
But they are now all grounded ofcourse...