Those who helped polish Jews during WWII

[mack pl]

Andrzej Sławiński

One of the great tragedies to befall Poland during the Second World War was the systematic persecution and eventual extermination of Polish Jews by the German Occupant. Terms such as 'crime against humanity', 'genocide' and 'holocaust' only partly convey the horror of these events.



Even now, more than half a century after the end of the war, questions are still being asked: What was the Polish Nation's response to the unfolding Jewish Tragedy? Did the Poles try to help the Jews? How much help could have been actually offered in view of the rigours imposed by German Occupation? Such questions call for a considered response based on historical facts.



Poland was the only country in occupied Europe where throughout the duration of the war a secret organisation existed whose express purpose was to help the Jews and find, for at least some of them, a place of safety. Initially coordinated by several committees, this action culminated in the creation in December 1942 of the Relief Council for Jews in Poland, code name 'Zegota'.



'Zegota' (l) organised financial aid and medical care for the Jews in hiding on the 'Aryan side', and procured for them forged identity documents. 'Zegota' was successful in providing accommodation for many. This presented an extremely difficult problem as discovery of a person of Jewish origin on the premises resulted in an immediate execution of all the occupants.

E. Ringelblum (2) describes hundreds of such cases.



Some 2500 Jewish children from Warsaw were saved by 'Żegota' by placing them either with catholic Polish foster-families or in orphanages run by convents or local councils. Help in the form of money, food and medicines was organised by 'Zegota' for the Jews in several forced labour camps in Poland.



As soon as the Jewish Tragedy became apparent, the Polish Government-in-Exile, the Underground State and Polish diplomacy embarked on a massive campaign, informing the free world of the plight of the Jews. Efforts were made to obtain help for them from the Allied Governments, the Vatican and from various organisations in the Allied countries. There were countless broadcasts, articles in the press, organised meetings, approaches to Allied leaders and governments in which the Free Polish leaders, ministers, politicians and diplomats over and over again insisted a crime of genocide was being committed by the Germans against the Jews. (3). The full story of the Jewish Tragedy was brought to the Allied countries by special couriers from the Polish Resistance, one of them gaining access to the inside of the Warsaw Ghetto and of a death camp. The couriers tried to persuade the Allies and the Jewish organisations that there was a real danger and urgency to help the Jews. Unfortunately the efforts of the Poles were in vain. The Allies were too busy with the prosecution of the war to consider the plight of the Jews. The Jewish organisations in the free world could not bring themselves to believe the Polish reports - they thought it was all an exaggeration.



The military wing of the Polish Underground State, the Home Army, tried to involve the Jewish organisations in Poland in resistance activities. At first there was reluctance on their part to participate. However, in 1942 the Jewish resistance movement began. The Home Army helped by providing military intelligence, communication with the Allies and eventually by providing some weapons, explosives and military expertise for the fighters in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising (4).



It is worth noting that Yad Vashem, the Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes Remembrance Authority, has recently expressed both thanks and appreciation to the special unit of the 'Zoska' Battalion of the Polish Home Army, which in August 1944 captured the Warsaw Concentration Camp, the so called 'Gesiówka', liberating 348 prisoners, Polish and European Jews.



What of the ordinary Polish people - were they prepared to offer help to the Jews? At an early stage of Poland's occupation the Jews were selected for special treatment by the Occupier. This meant a gradual isolation, degradation, starvation and eventual denial of the right to life for all Polish Jews.



The harsh reality of life for the rest of Poland's population was that everybody was preoccupied with the constant struggle for survival. To find work, to obtain enough food and other necessities of life, all these were of utmost importance to very many. Furthermore there was the constant fear of being arrested and sent to a concentration camp, to forced labour in Germany, or to be taken as a hostage for public execution by a firing squad or hanging.



Three million Poles and three million Polish Jews perished as a result of the German occupation. Poland was the only country in occupied Europe where giving any kind of help to the Jews resulted in summary execution of the helper and his or her family. Under such circumstances it would require a person of a special kind of courage and love of humanity to offer help to a Jew. How many saints would one find in any community? And yet there were some Polish people who did help. It has always been difficult to establish the exact number of helpers. Some idea of the number can be gleaned from the Yad Vashem list of the 'Righteous among the Nations' (l). The list, as of 1st January 1997, gives the names of 14,706 persons from 34 nationalities who helped the Jews. 4,954 of them are Polish helpers. Among them are listed 11 catholic clergymen and 18 nuns. Only three organisations are honoured by Yad Vashem, one being, the Polish organisation 'Żegota'. It is likely that as research into the role of the Polish people in the Holocaust continues, the list of Polish names will grow.



Those listed are the helpers who survived and their heroism verified by those whom they helped. There were many who paid the ultimate price. In most cases those they were trying to help perished with them. The publication 'Those who helped' (1) lists 704 Poles who were killed because they helped the Jews. Places and dates are also given of mass executions by the Germans (the so-called pacifications of villages) of a further 143 Poles who rendered help to the Jews. To obtain and verify the names of those helpers who perished presents an even more difficult problem. Inevitably there will remain a large number of unknown heroes.



One can finally ask: - Was the help given to the Jews of some significance? Stewart Steven, who in his book 'The Poles' (5), gives an extensive account of Polish-Jewish relations, offers the following conclusion: 'Maybe Poland could have done more for its Jewish population, but then so could every country of occupied Europe. The record shows that the Poles did more than most'.

A. Slawinski, London

References:

1. Those Who Helped, Published by The Main Commission for the Investigation of Crimes Against the Polish Nation and The Polish Society for the Righteous Among the Nations, Warsaw, 1997

2. Emanuel Ringelblum, Polish-Jewish Relations during the Second World War, Yad Vashem, Jerusalem, 1974

3. Kazimierz Iranek-Osmecki, He who saves one life, Crown Publishers Inc. New York, 1971. ( See also: Walter Laqeur, 'The Terrible Secret', Little, Brown & Co. Boston, 1980 ).

4. Marek Edelman, The Ghetto Fights, Bookmark, London, 1990

5. Stewart Steven, The Poles, Collins/Harvill, London, 1982

...........
Regards
mack pl

[UoUo]

I don't know what to say about all the polish during the war...


But i do know that there were polish that helped us....ad i even meet with some of them...i also meet with granddaughter of someone that helped jews in ww2 and that was very very feeling. :D

[mack pl]

I don't know what to say about all the polish during the war... Well, we were the same kind of people like any other nations during WWII. Like all nations, we have good and bad people.



But i do know that there were polish that helped us....ad i even meet with some of them...i also meet with granddaughter of someone that helped jews in ww2 and that was very very feeling. :D
Well, many Poles helped jews in WWII. Look at Yad Vashem museum, how many trees are "polish"(you know what I mean) :)

shalom alehem :hug:

[W(M)D]

Well, many Poles helped jews in WWII. Look at Yad Vashem museum, how many trees are "polish"(you know what I mean) :)


Without trying to hurt your national pride, but you can plant a forest for all those Poles who either actively collaborated with the Krauts to persecute Jews or those that were actively anti-Semitic (like many Europeans in WWII - far more then helped save/assist Jews). The Poles have a poor track record over the centuries with their treatment of the Jews.

[mack pl]

Well, many Poles helped jews in WWII. Look at Yad Vashem museum, how many trees are "polish"(you know what I mean) :)


Without trying to hurt your national pride, but you can plant a forest for all those Poles who either actively collaborated with the Krauts to persecute Jews or those that were actively anti-Semitic (like many Europeans in WWII - far more then helped save/assist Jews).

well, my national proud wasn't hurt by you ;) I know many examples of anti-Semitic activity in Poland(by Poles), but like I said in my post- we aren't very different than others nations-we have good and bad people.


The Poles have a poor track record over the centuries with their treatment of the Jews.

well, not only Poles i think. Russians, Spanish, French, Germans too ;) BTW first jews come to Poland from Spain, and other eastern Europe countries in middle ages because Poland was very tolerant country ;)

Regards

[W(M)D]

well, not only Poles i think. Russians, Spanish, French, Germans too ;) BTW first jews come to Poland from Spain, and other eastern Europe countries in middle ages because Poland was very tolerant country ;)

You are right not only the Poles have been neglectful in their treatment of Jews. This could be said for alot of countries where Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity was prevalent. Although, Poland may (or may not) have been more tolerant then Spain in 1492, it was due to it's recent intolerance in the last centuries that Jews emigrated from Poland (& Russia) to more tolerant societies in the USA & western Europe.

[Herrmannek]

Well, many Poles helped jews in WWII. Look at Yad Vashem museum, how many trees are "polish"(you know what I mean) :)


Without trying to hurt your national pride, but you can plant a forest for all those Poles who either actively collaborated with the Krauts to persecute Jews or those that were actively anti-Semitic (like many Europeans in WWII - far more then helped save/assist Jews). The Poles have a poor track record over the centuries with their treatment of the Jews.

Where did you got that idea about forest? Poor track? Give me names, dates, and places... And I would be very carefull with far more statement...to rescue one Jew tens ow Poles were needed, to denounce 100 Jews one folksdoitch was enough. You must also remember that Poland was multinational country we had

Minorities Percentage at 1921 in Poland:
http://www.republika.pl/gensikorski/sch1.gif
Ukrainians=Ukraińcy
Jews=Żydzi
Bielorusians=Białorusini
Germans=Niemcy
Other=Inni
Poles=Polacy

because things happened in Poland and those who did it were speaking Polish doesn't mean they were Poles, you are planting trees on wrong field my friend...esspecialy in occupied Poland 3 per 10 wasn't Poles with means for every 2 poles was one non-Pole. I can assure those who cooperated with Germans in any way weren't main stream of Polish society. Things they did were crimes here with were punished by death... So stop giving us THose BS

[tony6]

Without trying to hurt your national pride, but you can plant a forest for all those Poles who either actively collaborated with the Krauts to persecute Jews or those that were actively anti-Semitic (like many Europeans in WWII - far more then helped save/assist Jews). The Poles have a poor track record over the centuries with their treatment of the Jews.
Another ignorant jackass comment.
My friend: have You ever tried to sit down and ask Yourself one simple question: why there were so many Jews in Poland before WWII?
Because You seem to know **** about Jews in Poland I will do You a favour and answer that: because for ages Poland was home for them as pretty tolerant country then. They have been banished from many countries in Europe (for example: Spain) but in Poland they could leave in peace (together with catholics and muslims).
So instead talking BS and shallowing problem only to WWII era try look some couple hundreds years earlier-You will see more.

[UoUo]

YeY! Poland was great place to jews before WW2 who the **** cares? 3,000,000 were killed there...so don't tell me how good Poland was fore the jews....

There were good polsih and bad...and like i said before...

My grandmather told that no day past withoust she thank to the good polish guy that saved her...

And my outher grandfather didn't agreed to speak or heard about Poland cuz what the polish people did to him.

[W(M)D]

My point was not only about WWII alone but preceding decades/centuries.
The fact that Poland was made up of othe rnationalities does not deflect it's record. The only positive on Poland's side during WWII was that native Poles were also subject to the racial policies of Nazi Germany and in part there was (to an extent) common cause & suffering with it's Jewish population.

H: You should know that the relative success in killing more Jews from Eastern Europe (besides the greater number in population as western European Jews were 'spared' in the initial few years of WWII) was due in no small part to the native populations of Eastern Europe abetting the Nazis.

[mack pl]

YeY! Poland was great place to jews before WW2 who the f*** cares? 3,000,000 were killed there.

blame Germans, not Poland ;)

[tony6]

So another words: WE KILLED THOSE 3,000,000 JEWS???

[UoUo]

So another words: WE KILLED THOSE 3,000,000 JEWS???

:roll:

[tony6]

Dude-You'd better explain Your point of view here...

[mack pl]

Dude-You'd better explain Your point of view here...

UoUo- maybe when you were in poland, and visited Majdanek camp, they dont tell you, but it wasnt POLISH DEATH CAMP, but GERMAN :| Poles didnt killed Jews on this camp, but GERMANS did :|

But, maybe Im wrong. Im only student of history, but in polish university, so what the fuk could i know about history of my country :|

[UoUo]

:roll:

FFS who sayed that i think that the polish people killed the jews?

I am just saying..who the **** cares that poland was safe place to the Jews in WW2.

[W(M)D]

THE WAR AGAINST THE JEWS.
by Alexander Kimel - Holocaust Survivor


The Germans conducted the war against the Jews with military precision, using an array of weapons like starvation, deliberate cruelty, pervasive terror, dehumanization. Extensive psychological pressure and deception were used to demoralize the victims, to kill their will to live and change them into an amorphous mass, easily pushed into the gas chambers. In the Warsaw Ghetto, for example, volunteers for the "resettlement" were offered 5 kilo of bread and one kilo of sugar, and people were lining up to get into the death trains.

The war against the Jews was very successful. In Poland alone about 98% of the Jewish population was executed. Despite their military might and organizational skills, the Germans needed help from local population. The thorough liquidation of the Jewry, killing of millions of people without resistance and disturbances, required strict secrecy. Secrecy was required to keep the German population uninformed about the insane, criminal activities and it was also imperative not to alert the victims about their impending doom. In addition the Germans required help in identifying, isolating and demoralizing of the Jews.

Secrecy was of the utmost importance, because when in 1939, Hitler started to gas the retarded Germans, he was stopped by the protests of the population and denunciations by the clergy. The Germans constituted Hitler's power base, and there was always a danger that they might raise their voices in defense of their Jewish compatriots.

To keep a tight lid, Heydrich invented a new language of euphemisms: mass murder was called Final Solution, killing - liquidation, people - pieces, pogroms - resettlement, gassing - processing, etc. In addition to maintaining the secrecy, the Germans needed the help of the local population in identifying, isolating and humiliating the Jews. Runaway Jews had to be identified when on Aryan papers, flushed out from the bunkers, or caught in the forests, etc. It is sad, but in the war against the Jews, the German got all the help they needed. Hitler was helped by the conspiracy of silence.

The Christian Churches washed their hands and remained silent, even the Allies joined the conspiracy. The news about the systematic killings filtered out from Poland in the early 1942, and was received with complete indifference. Stalin denied Roosevelt Administration actively tried to stop the flow of the disturbing information, claiming that winning of the war is the first priority.

The Allies gave up a propaganda advantage, a chance to demoralize the German officer corps and the German population itself by not spreading the news. In addition the conspiracy of silence convinced the local collaborators, that killing of Jews was acceptable. Nobody cared.

In most East European countries, where the bulk of the Jewry resided, the German received ample help from the local population. In Poland, the Jews were beaten, blackmailed, robbed, denounced. Peasants caught runaway Jews, bound them like pigs and delivered them to the Gestapo in exchange for a liter of vodka and a kilogram of sugar. Jews hiding in forests were outright killed. The Polish underground Army, passed many death sentences on Polish collaborators, but denunciation of Jews was never punished. Poles rejoiced when the Warsaw Ghetto was burning. "The Jewish bedbugs are finally torched."
In Warsaw there was a saying: "The whole world will throw stones at Hitler's grave, we will send flowers, grateful for removing the Jews from Poland."
In the Ukraine, crematoriums were superfluous, the Ukrainians made sure that no Jew survives. With vengeance, Ukrainians killed Jews hiding in the forests. The Ukrainians were actively involved in all phases of the Holocaust from raiding the ghettos, guarding the transports, operating the gas chambers and were known for their cruelty. Ivan the Terrible, a Ukrainian, cut the women's genitals with a sword, before they were pushed into gas chambers. Torturing people, before their execution, was his greatest pleasure.

In Rumania, the Iron Guard, the local Fascists, hung Jews from butcher hooks and slaughtered them like animals. In Croatia, the Ustashi Fascists, beat to death one hundred thousand people. Transporting Jews to Auschwitz was not necessary. Their barbarism is difficult to imagine. One Ustashi drag around a sack filled with eyes, pulled out from the victims' sockets.

In Slovakia, a nationalistic government headed by a Roman Catholic priest, paid the German for the transporting their Jews to Auschwitz. Even the gentile Bulgars resettled thousands of "foreign" Jews. In Hungary, in the last phases of the war, local Fascist rounded up the Jews to be delivered to Auschwitz.

In France, the Vichy government blamed the Jews for the demise of the French Republic, organized concentration camps, caught and deported thousand of foreign Jews. Even in countries where the general population was sympathetic to the victims like Denmark, or Belgium, the Germans received help from the local Nazis.

It is true, that only a minute part of the population committed crimes against the Jews, but they had the tacit approval and support of the silent majority. In Poland alone, about 97% of the Jewish population was killed. Without the active help from the Poles, without the passive help of the Allies, this would have been impossible.

[tony6]

UoUo- maybe when you were in poland, and visited Majdanek camp, they dont tell you, but it wasnt POLISH DEATH CAMP, but GERMAN Poles didnt killed Jews on this camp, but GERMANS did
WTF? Is he 12 years old boy that You have to explain it to him??
Let me add something: POLAND WAS ATTACKED BY GERMANS not vice versa.
Earth is a planet (it means that it is more less a sphere) not a flat pancake.
Copy that?
And You Jewish guys keep complain about agressive comments against you...
Post more BS (3,000,000 Jews killed by Poles-Jesus Christ! what galaxy R U from?) like that and You will see more anger coming at You here...

[tony6]

****-it seems that all that death camps in Poland were built by Poles and Poles were killing Jews in it.
Sorry-it is definitely to much for me.
I'm outta here.

[UoUo]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


What the **** is going on here?????????????????????????????????

Who said that i think that the Polish built the death camps........arghhhhhh

You make me mad. :bash: :bash:

[W(M)D]

Uo - He misunderstood maybe what you said, the standard of English sometimes confuses two people from different non-English speaking countries. He could not muster enough fact for the arguement but 'glossed' over the real issue (see my post above).

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

[b]In Warsaw there was a saying: "The whole world will throw stones at Hitler's grave, we will send flowers, grateful for removing the Jews from Poland."

WHAT THE F*CK?!?!?! :cantbeli:

SIX MILLIONS OF OUR CITIZENS WERE KILLED BY THE NAZIS, MOST CITIES WERE TOTTALY DESTROYED, WARSAW IN 1945 WAS JUST A RIUN, AND YOU'RE SAYING THAT WE GLORIFIED ADOLF? GO F*CK YOURSELF

After reading this post I may become an anti-semite :roll:

[UoUo]

[b]In Warsaw there was a saying: "The whole world will throw stones at Hitler's grave, we will send flowers, grateful for removing the Jews from Poland."

WHAT THE F*CK?!?!?! :cantbeli:

SIX MILLIONS OF OUR CITIZENS WERE KILLED BY THE NAZIS, MOST CITIES WERE TOTTALY DESTROYED, WARSAW IN 1945 WAS JUST A RIUN, AND YOU'RE SAYING THAT WE GLORIFIED ADOLF? GO F*CK YOURSELF

After reading this post I may become an anti-semite :roll:

The six millions include the 3,000,000 millions jews right?

[mack pl]

[b]In Warsaw there was a saying: "The whole world will throw stones at Hitler's grave, we will send flowers, grateful for removing the Jews from Poland."

WHAT THE F*CK?!?!?! :cantbeli:

SIX MILLIONS OF OUR CITIZENS WERE KILLED BY THE NAZIS, MOST CITIES WERE TOTTALY DESTROYED, WARSAW IN 1945 WAS JUST A RIUN, AND YOU'RE SAYING THAT WE GLORIFIED ADOLF? GO F*CK YOURSELF

After reading this post I may become an anti-semite :roll:

The six millions include the 3,000,000 millions jews right?
Yeah, right. But WMD write something about 98% executed Jews. So, maybe he dont know, but before WWII in Poland were living 6 milions. So, "only" 50% were killed. If its tru that only 2% polish Jews survive war, that will be something about 120 000 people, yeah? OMG. This article was the bigest BS ever :cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli:

[W(M)D]

After reading this post I may become an anti-semite :roll:

What would make you think that I was Jewish? Or is that just an assumption and make you feel easy with yourself being an anti-Semite! It may be something that comes naturally to you, do you feel the old hatred of your ancestors coming out? It must be ingrained in yur DNA or something.

Do you honestly feel that Poland has a clear conscience on the topic?

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

The six millions include the 3,000,000 millions jews right?

Yeah, if you got Polish citizenship you're a Polish citizen, no matter that you're Jewish, white, black, yellow, martian etc. ;)

[UoUo]

The six millions include the 3,000,000 millions jews right?

Yeah, if you got Polish citizenship you're a Polish citizen, no matter that you're Jewish, white, black, yellow, martian etc. ;)

Same here.

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Or is that just an assumption and make you feel easy with yourself being an anti-Semite! It may be something that comes naturally to you, do you feel the old hatred of your ancestors coming out? It must be ingrained in yur DNA or something.

Wow, so you're a racist? Yeah, tell it to us, every Pole is a god damn anti-semite, moron, idiot, and bloody butcher.
Goebbels' propaganda was telling almost the same (except anti-semitism ;).


Do you honestly feel that Poland has a clear conscience on the topic?

What do you mean by "Poland"?

[mack pl]

After reading this post I may become an anti-semite :roll:

What would make you think that I was Jewish? Or is that just an assumption and make you feel easy with yourself being an anti-Semite! It may be something that comes naturally to you, do you feel the old hatred of your ancestors coming out? It must be ingrained in yur DNA or something.

Do you honestly feel that Poland has a clear conscience on the topic?

Nah, our consciense isn't ok. I think, every young Pole, when he will be 18, should go to Israeli embassy in Warsaw, and he should say to israeli ambasador "Im Sorry!" :cantbeli:

:cantbeli: :cantbeli:

[W(M)D]

Wow, so you're a racist? Yeah, tell it to us, every Pole is a god damn anti-semite, moron, idiot, and bloody butcher.

What do you mean by "Poland"?

No I am not a racist, it was your statement earlier that prompted you to say that on the basis of my statement you would consider becoming an anti-Semite (on the basis that it was written by a Jew). Perhaps you need to look at yourself alot closer.
My previous posts imparted intelligence unlike yours which only impart (a misguided sentiment).
Now that you are part of (developed) Europe you have to realise that there are laws against religous hatred, you will need to get used to that.

Poland - the 'rump' part of the country minus Danzig & of course Prussia. Or is Poland really just a part of Russia or Germany (depending on when they feel like moving their borders).

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

My previous posts imparted intelligence unlike yours which only impart (a misguided sentiment).

Your post was a biggest BS that I ever read.
Maybe you should learn some history.


Now that you are part of (developed) Europe you have to realise that there are laws against religous hatred, you will need to get used to that.

Noooo, in Poland (the land of Evil) there's no such law. I may take my shotgun, some molotov cocktails and go on the streets to kill some abhorrent Jews.


Poland - the 'rump' part of the country minus Danzig & of course Prussia. Or is Poland really just a part of Russia or Germany (depending on when they feel like moving their borders).

So, how land (with some sand and rocks, sometimes even coal) can be responsible for anything?

[W(M)D]

Your post was a biggest BS that I ever read.
Maybe you should learn some history.

My history is very good thanx, why was the article above BS? An intelligent response (leave your emotion out of it) would be appreciated. It was written by a Holocaust survivor, there are '000s of other testimonials, documents, eye witness accounts that say similar things.

Your countryman Mack PL had a realistic take on the issue.

[Herrmannek]

Your post was a biggest BS that I ever read.
Maybe you should learn some history.

My history is very good thanx, why was the article above BS? An intelligent response (leave your emotion out of it) would be appreciated. It was written by a Holocaust survivor, there are '000s of other testimonials, documents, eye witness accounts that say similar things.

Your countryman Mack PL had a realistic take on the issue.

So what he was holocaust survivor? Is being survivor gives anybody policy to be always right? If there is thousands of them just give it to us? We want to lrean more...

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

My history is very good thanx, why was the article above BS? An intelligent response (leave your emotion out of it) would be appreciated.

You want a intelligent response? OK then:

1. About the Jewish part- well, this isn't pure bull****. Every nation has it's sc*ms. But why you say that all Poles are murderers, butchers etc.? What about hundreds of people who risked their lives (only in Poland helping Jews was punished by death) to save Jews? What about the Polish righteous among the nations?
If Poles were such bloody butchers, what about Germans?

2.
In Warsaw there was a saying: "The whole world will throw stones at Hitler's grave, we will send flowers, grateful for removing the Jews from Poland."

This is most moronic statement that I've ever read.

In this Warsaw, where hundreds of people were killed by Germans everyday? In Warsaw that was destroyed by Germans in 98%? Is it logical for nation who suffered the second highest number of victims in WWII to glorify Adolf?

[mack pl]

Your post was a biggest BS that I ever read.
Maybe you should learn some history.

My history is very good thanx, why was the article above BS? An intelligent response (leave your emotion out of it) would be appreciated. It was written by a Holocaust survivor, there are '000s of other testimonials, documents, eye witness accounts that say similar things.

Your countryman Mack PL had a realistic take on the issue.

Thanx, Its my thread, so im trying to be "realistic'.

But

Do you ever heard about Roman Polański or Szeweh Weiss? First of them is producer, and second is ambassador of Israel in Warsaw- they are holocaust surviver too. Guess, who helped them? Yes, Poles. So, this surviver who you talking about, not always banish Poland, but sometimes have something good to say. Well, i think you are adult person, and you know that history isn't 'black and white'. Like i sauid it before, we aren't different nation than others- we have good and bad people. but i will never agree with statement that we are guilty of that what Germans did in our land. even If some Poles helped them, poland cannot have problem with consciense. we were victim too. Don't forgett about it.

regards

[W(M)D]

Double post

[W(M)D]

So what he was holocaust survivor? Is being survivor gives anybody policy to be always right? If there is thousands of them just give it to us? We want to lrean more...

Try the Holocaust Foundation for a start and then carry out a google search, or may be you just dont like looking at the facts. Besides what can be found on the web, there are also written testimonials.

http://www.vhf.org/

I would have thought that a holocaust survivors testimony would be relevant, after all, their testimonies have been used in the prosecution of WWII war criminals.

[mack pl]

lol, we both have double post :lol:

[Herrmannek]

So what he was holocaust survivor? Is being survivor gives anybody policy to be always right? If there is thousands of them just give it to us? We want to lrean more...

Try the Holocaust Foundation for a start and then carry out a google search, or may be you just dont like looking at the facts. Besides what can be found on the web, there are also written testimonials.

http://www.vhf.org/

THanks, I was searching and still do, but found nothing you are talking about...This dispute is one year old here and it backs everytime someones touches that topic...

[W(M)D]

Try doing a search on the web, plenty of information, here is yet another:

http://www.holocaustsurvivors.org/cgi-bin/data.show.pl?di=record&da=encyclopedia&ke=107

Nobody is denying that Poland (,Russia, France, Greece, etc) sufferred under Germany during the war, but it is a real 'double standard' to see Poles saying 'look we saved so many Jews'. Their population was never accepted in it's last years of existence by Poles hence the anti-semitic policies in Poland in the 1930s.

[mack pl]

Try doing a search on the web, plenty of information, here is yet another:

http://www.holocaustsurvivors.org/cgi-bin/data.show.pl?di=record&da=encyclopedia&ke=107

Nobody is denying that Poland (,Russia, France, Greece, etc) sufferred under Germany during the war, but it is a real 'double standard' to see Poles saying 'look we saved so many Jews'. Their population was never accepted in it's last years of existence by Poles hence the anti-semitic policies in Poland in the 1930s.

our policy wasn't antisemitic in 30's. Well, jews were even in our army ;) general Mond for example, he was commander of 6th Infantry Division, in 39 campaign. But If you are talking about 'double standards',hmmmmm, i dont agree with you. We have law to talking about Poles who helped Jews. And you cannot blame Poland for some of our citizens who sometimes make bad things, coz Poland, and polish governmaent never support nazis. we never colaborate with them(like Vichy did). etc etc. Well, many jews suffer in poland during WWII, its true, and nobody can say its not. but Poland have clear conciense-even If you thing we shouldn't have, we have. Try to explain to this Poles who lost theirs familys in Auschwitz, and other death camps, that poland should't have clear consciense. Could you proof them, that Poland during WWII was such bad country like Germany?

Regards

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Nobody is denying that Poland (,Russia, France, Greece, etc) sufferred under Germany during the war, but it is a real 'double standard' to see Poles saying 'look we saved so many Jews'. Their population was never accepted in it's last years of existence by Poles hence the anti-semitic policies in Poland in the 1930s.

But every country in Europe that was under German occupation has this 'double standards': there were Poles who helped Jews, where were Poles who killed them. The same goes with the rest of Europe- France, Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, etc.

After 1939 Soviet invasion some Jews supported NKVD, and helped in mass deportations of Poles.
So, you can't generalize, it's impossible to tell that 'all Poles were bad', 'all Jews were good etc.".

Like I said before- EVERY nation on Earth has its good people, and its scums.

[W(M)D]

Our policy wasn't antisemitic in 30's. Well, jews were even in our army

We will have to disagree then about alot of the above. Having Jews in your army proves nothing, other anti-Semitic countries have also had Jews serve in their armed forces over the centuries even during times of suffering to it's native Jews e.g. Czarist Russia, etc.
Again, I do not deny that Poland (and other occupied countries) suffered during WWII and Poland could never work alongside the Germans in the same way as Vichy France (bad example) as Nazi policy held (slavic) Poles to be of a more inferior race to the French, etc.
Of course, Poland was not like Germany during the war, but European countries are more ****e in this age to forget their behaviour during WWII e.g. some Germans feel that they were freed from the Nazis (as if they had come from somewhere totally different). As the holocaust generation dies (and consequently it is less in the public eye) Europe tends to either forget about the event for what it really was or countries over exaggerate their better side during the conflict out of all proportion to their worse side (a kind of selective history).

[b.scheller]

Can't we just all get along here? The war began 65 years ago.

How can we be so sure about everything? Without having seen the war first hand; books, movies and all historical data has a way of being biased. I don't deny the fact that Poles were anti-semetic, there were many; but I think it was a very small but very visible minority.

As for those who saved their nationals during the war (no matter what their religion may have been), they did exist. Perhaps not in such numbers that could have saved all the families and people, but never the less they did exist. As for the rest of the population that did not fall into either group.
They were usually too scared to act, they did not know what to do and its understandable under the conditions of an occupied country, where just by walking on the street you might be shot by a soldier.

I don't think that everyone in Poland was an anti-semite, but unfortunetly there was a big enough minority that was very visible. Its unfortunete that it happened. I hope that one day this can all be bought behind us, not forgotten but at least forgiven.

[Herrmannek]

Try doing a search on the web, plenty of information, here is yet another:

http://www.holocaustsurvivors.org/cgi-bin/data.show.pl?di=record&da=encyclopedia&ke=107

Nobody is denying that Poland (,Russia, France, Greece, etc) sufferred under Germany during the war, but it is a real 'double standard' to see Poles saying 'look we saved so many Jews'. Their population was never accepted in it's last years of existence by Poles hence the anti-semitic policies in Poland in the 1930s.

This is BS article...

First - I don't want to enter into idea of minorities but possibility save yours cultural independence from hosting country was right warranted in polish costitution not symptom of oppresion... Jews who wanted assimilate with polish culture could do that without a problem and did that.

Article accuse Poles for being passive, but forgot to mention that Jews were passive to. On other hand that way of presenting Poles takes their natural right to save their live first and shouldn't be taken as argument in any disscussion.

Jews didn't came back because they got their new country called Israel and because most of things that keept them there was detroyed, they families killed, very bad memories was still in their minds, their goods were stolen and rest was burnt by germans. About Kielce. this wasn't mob's action. but propaganda action made by communist authorities to achieve internal goals.

As for antisemitism how you can call that minority with 8% percent in society had 25% percent in institutions of higher learning. and after that barabarians acts percent falled to normal level of 8%. This act was no more antisemite than forbiding girls to wear scarfs and I would say even less...

As for acuses for Polish nationalism with was in reality patriotism and rarely got beyond the line of unmorality :cantbeli:, if not that nationalism we wouldn't be here spoking.

Accusations that we aren't suicidal aren't legal arguments :cantbeli:

[W(M)D]

Jews didn't came back because they got their new country called Israel and because most of things that keept them there was detroyed, they families killed, very bad memories was still in their minds, their goods were stolen and rest was burnt by germans. About Kielce. this wasn't mob's action. but propaganda action made by communist authorities to achieve internal goals.

As for antisemitism how you can call that minority with 8% percent in society had 25% percent in institutions of higher learning. and after that barabarians acts percent falled to normal level of 8%. This act was no more antisemite than forbiding girls to wear scarfs and I would say even less...

To the first point above, Israel was not created until 3 years after the war, Polish Jews (who had lived in Poland for centuries) did not cease to be Poles by nationality, they chose (many of them) not to return due to continuing anti-Semitisn which was prevalent without the help of Communism and had been present long before WWII.

As for 8% of a minority against 25% (or whatever %), surely these people who were (Jewish) Poles should be open to all areas of society because as you mentioned Poland was a tolerant country and they had by then already lived there for centuries. Why should they be left out of the social equation?
Unless, they were not really accepted as Poles (even after many centuries due to discrimination).

We will have to agree to disagree.

[Herrmannek]

We will have to agree to disagree.
I think we have to to...