Spain Wants Closer Ties with Latin America

[Dragunov]

Latin American Herald Tribune
5/12/2009
MADRID – Spain’s King Juan Carlos and Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said Monday that the upcoming bicentennials of Latin American independence should be used to promote Spanish and European Union ties to the region.

At a ceremony in the Casa de America in Madrid, the monarch and Zapatero inaugurated observances of the bicentennials that begin this year in Bolivia and Ecuador, and will continue in 2010 in Mexico, Argentina, Venezuela, Colombia and Chile.

The two men told an audience of Latin American and European notables that Spain and Latin American need to work together to boost the Ibero-American community’s international influence.

The king said that during Spain’s six-month tenure of the EU presidency, which begins Jan. 1, 2010, Madrid will promote “a qualitative leap forward” in Europe’s relations with Latin America and the Caribbean.

Zapatero, for his part, spoke of Spain’s wish to “accompany” the true leaders of the bicentennials, with “a view to the future, confidence in the present and wisdom of the past,” all the while respecting “the diversity of cultures.”

After saying that “Spain is a country that cannot be understood without Ibero-America,” he called for a new stage of greater collaboration to make the most of shared values like language while promoting such areas as education and research.

In a similar vein, Spanish Foreign Minister Miguel Angel Moratinos urged the forging of a “triangle” made up of the United States, Europe and Latin America.

That Atlantic triangle “continues to be” responsible for 62.5 percent of the global gross domestic product, added Spain’s plenipotentiary ambassador for the commemoration of Latin American Independence, former Premier Felipe Gonzalez. EFE

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=334411&CategoryId=12394

[Ordie]

Here are my thoughts.

Spain is a country known for its political and regional factions. Most people from Spain will regard themselves as Catalan or Gallego rather than Spanish. Devolution of political power under the auspices of EU membership made Madrid less relevant as a political capital.

Spain's birthrate has been decreasing and rural population is on the decline. To fill in the void, immigrants from North Africa, Eastern Europe and Latin America filled the gap.

As with anything, immigration especially from North Africa is political with social baggage. Add the internal regionalism then the issue of Spain becoming relevant comes into question.

Solution, add more Latin Americans especially those desended from the Spanish diaspora from the Civil War. Give them citizenship. More likely than not, they speak the language, share the same religion and most importantly not ****e to regionalism. Most of the new Spanish are from Argentina, Mexico and Uruguay. Many Ecuadorians are now settled and thier children are Spanish.

Given that they identify with a Spanish state, it begs the question on how will the regional governments and people will react.

[Pollo Pion]

Well, now almost all regional goverments are in the hands of national parties, not the separatists one, so maybe now the things could improve. But only maybe. I don´t have too much faith in our politicians.

[PeterRJG]

Could we see a Commonwealth or a La Fracophonie type setup between former Spanish colonies and Spain?

[acosta]

certainly. pissed of by the political map as status quo, we really need a close tie between two regions. Anglo-Sux dominates US of america, not the Commonwealth of americas


Could we see a Commonwealth or a La Fracophonie type setup between former Spanish colonies and Spain?

[bababooey]

Makes sense. It would give Spain a good shot in the arm. A couple of my cousins from Argentina went to Spain. One went in their army. Would Spanish people have a preference as to which immigrants would be more "palatabe? That is to say, Argentines who are of European decent as opposed to spanish speaking latinos who look "indian"?

[Ordie]

^^^^

The primary destination and orientation for Latin Americans is the United States. Since 9/11 we shut ourselves out of Latin America with restrictive and expensive Visa policies (Need a visa to connect international planes at Miami) and our pre-occupation with the Middle East and Asia.

Spain was a substitute for an outside lifeline.

Having been to Spain, local attitudes towards Latin Americans are less than desirable.

[Shuimo]

they all speak the same language with closer cultural affinity!
Just go ahead!

[Ordie]

they all speak the same language with closer cultural affinity!
Just go ahead!

Shuimo,

Based on your premise, the Spanish Empire would not had faded and the entire Latin American continent would have been joined as one. That is not the case.

Latin America is a polyglot of different peoples, languages, traditions who are anarchist, corportist, nationalist and rebels with a live for today attitude.

There is no doubt that Spain is getting reaquainted with its former colonies. However, on a family and friends level, the United States has a more profound and personal impact to Latin America than Spain.

[Shuimo]

Shuimo,

Based on your premise, the Spanish Empire would not had faded and the entire Latin American continent would have been joined as one. That is not the case.

Latin America is a polyglot of different peoples, languages, traditions who are anarchist, corportist, nationalist and rebels with a live for today attitude.

There is no doubt that Spain is getting reaquainted with its former colonies. However, on a family and friends level, the United States has a more profound and personal impact to Latin America than Spain.

A common language is a powerful bond to make Spain a ready relative to the latin american countries!
Isn't Spanish making inroads into southern US?rofl

[Shuimo]

Here are my thoughts.

Spain is a country known for its political and regional factions. Most people from Spain will regard themselves as Catalan or Gallego rather than Spanish. Devolution of political power under the auspices of EU membership made Madrid less relevant as a political capital.

Spain's birthrate has been decreasing and rural population is on the decline. To fill in the void, immigrants from North Africa, Eastern Europe and Latin America filled the gap.

As with anything, immigration especially from North Africa is political with social baggage. Add the internal regionalism then the issue of Spain becoming relevant comes into question.

Solution, add more Latin Americans especially those desended from the Spanish diaspora from the Civil War. Give them citizenship. More likely than not, they speak the language, share the same religion and most importantly not ****e to regionalism. Most of the new Spanish are from Argentina, Mexico and Uruguay. Many Ecuadorians are now settled and thier children are Spanish.

Given that they identify with a Spanish state, it begs the question on how will the regional governments and people will react.


Your worry for Spain is exaggerated!
If China as such a huge country can do so well, there is no reason Spain as such a small country should fail!rofl

[Ordie]

A common language is a powerful bond to make Spain a ready relative to the latin american countries!
Isn't Spanish making inroads into southern US?rofl


Familiarity, attitudes and norms trumps language every time.

Not all Latin Americans have Spanish roots.

In places such as Mexico, Central America and Andean region, local indigenous customs, languages, and food predominate the landscape.

In the Carribbean, African roots is everywhere.

In places such as Argentina and Uruguay, the predominant culture, ethincity and customs is Italian or other European.

Places such as Lima, Peru its a polyglot of Incan, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese and others. Where one could order sweet & sour guinea pig and wash it down with pisco.

In terms of mass media, Mexican and Brazilian Soap Operas are standard. Programming from Spain is not as popular as it is difficult to understand (and harsh on the ears) for the common Latin Americans. Spanish Language CNN is understandable.

Latin Americans who claim Spanish citizenship, are most likely decendants of political exiles of the Spanish Civil War or immigrants from Galicia to Argentina.

Spanish (Castillian) is probably the second largest language in the United States due to annexation of the American southwest and immigration. By in large 2nd generation of immigrants tend to be fluent in both Spanish and English with no formal training. However, many immigrants see English as the language of economic opportunity.

Many Latin Americans are adopting English as a means to economic growth as well. Especially in high tech and tourism.

[Ordie]

Your worry for Spain is exaggerated!
If China as such a huge country can do so well, there is no reason Spain as such a small country should fail!rofl

Before you post with assumptions with stupid smilies, I highly recommend you read and COMPREHEND Spanish and Latin American history, politics and society.

Keep in mind, what kept and ruled Spain for centuries is a tripod of the Church, King and Army. Today the Church is becomming irrelevant, the Royal family are figureheads, and the Army answers to a democrtically elected government.

Given that the EU is an umbrella for funding, the regions of Spain are no longer dependent upon Madrid, therefore the Catalans, Basques and Gallicians are flauting thier autonomy, just as the Scots, Flemish and other regional groups are doing the same.

Enter new Spanish citizens from abroad who are Castillian speakers, then you might see a change in local Spanish politics. The Catalans, Basques, and Galicians may see the new Castillian speaking arrivals as a political threat.

[Shuimo]

Familiarity, attitudes and norms trumps language every time.

Not all Latin Americans have Spanish roots.

In places such as Mexico, Central America and Andean region, local indigenous customs, languages, and food predominate the landscape.

In the Carribbean, African roots is everywhere.

In places such as Argentina and Uruguay, the predominant culture, ethincity and customs is Italian or other European.

Places such as Lima, Peru its a polyglot of Incan, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese and others. Where one could order sweet & sour guinea pig and wash it down with pisco.

In terms of mass media, Mexican and Brazilian Soap Operas are standard. Programming from Spain is not as popular as it is difficult to understand (and harsh on the ears) for the common Latin Americans. Spanish Language CNN is understandable.

Latin Americans who claim Spanish citizenship, are most likely decendants of political exiles of the Spanish Civil War or immigrants from Galicia to Argentina.

Spanish (Castillian) is probably the second largest language in the United States due to annexation of the American southwest and immigration. By in large 2nd generation of immigrants tend to be fluent in both Spanish and English with no formal training. However, many immigrants see English as the language of economic opportunity.

Many Latin Americans are adopting English as a means to economic growth as well. Especially in high tech and tourism.

NO big deal!
What you said (you surely know lots about the grass roots conditions of Latin America?) doesn't matter that much! The Spanish should have done a deeper and thorougher job of colonizing of that continent, just like what the Europeans did with native Indians in north America!

Can you deny the fact of Spanish being the PREDOMINATING language of Latin America? Don't tell me it is English or some other little known tribeal tongue!rofl


The point is that Spain is an element inescapable on that continent judging by the lone fact of it being largely colonized by the country!rofl

[Shuimo]

Before you post with assumptions with stupid smilies, I highly recommend you read and COMPREHEND Spanish and Latin American history, politics and society.

Keep in mind, what kept and ruled Spain for centuries is a tripod of the Church, King and Army. Today the Church is becomming irrelevant, the Royal family are figureheads, and the Army answers to a democrtically elected government.

Given that the EU is an umbrella for funding, the regions of Spain are no longer dependent upon Madrid, therefore the Catalans, Basques and Gallicians are flauting thier autonomy, just as the Scots, Flemish and other regional groups are doing the same.

Enter new Spanish citizens from abroad who are Castillian speakers, then you might see a change in local Spanish politics. The Catalans, Basques, and Galicians may see the new Castillian speaking arrivals as a political threat.

Ordie, sorry, Spanish culture appeals little to Shuimo, except when it serves the occasional need for curisority over exotic elements!

EU is basically a modern political myth with a bunch of bedfellows with different dreams! You know what I mean?rofl

[Ordie]

NO big deal!
What you said (you surely know lots about the grass roots conditions of Latin America?) doesn't matter that much! The Spanish should be done a deeper and thorougher job of colonizing of that continent, just like what the Europeans did with native Indians in north America!

It's obiovious they don't teach Latin American history in China.

Spain did not colonize Latin America, they conquered Latin America.

Go read Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond

History lesson:
It was Spanish colonial policy not to allow local Criollos (Latin Americans of Spanish decent) political and administrative power. Moreover, Spain did not allow free markets to emerge.

Therefore Spain had a monopoly of power and weath.

The rebellion against Spainish rule happend during the backdrop of the Napleonic Wars led by aristocratic Criollos with the backing of Great Britian.

It was not a popular class / political driven revolution in a classical sense, but a revolution of land owners seeking new markets.

[Ordie]

EU is basically a modern political myth with a bunch of bedfellows with different dreams! You know what I mean?rofl

I'll trade 300 years of war between England and France for 50 years of peace under the EU.

It can be messy, but the alternative is worst.

[Shuimo]

It's obiovious they don't teach Latin American history in China.

Spain did not colonize Latin America, they conquered Latin America.

Go read Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond

History lesson:
It was Spanish colonial policy not to allow local Criollos (Latin Americans of Spanish decent) political and administrative power. Moreover, Spain did not allow free markets to emerge.

Therefore Spain had a monopoly of power and weath.

The rebellion against Spainish rule happend during the backdrop of the Napleonic Wars led by aristocratic Criollos with the backing of Great Britian.

It was not a popular class / poliotical driven revolution in a classical sense, but a revolution of land owners seeking new markets.

WE do, but through a totally different pair of spectacles!rofl

Ordie, I feel you are being bookwormish, playing word games between colonize and conquer like that!

I can agree with yr factual description of how the Spaniards ruled the continent!
Whatever you label it, it was colonizing at heart, though in far more awarkward ways than how the Brits conquered and colonized the Indian continent!rofl

[Shuimo]

I'll trade 300 years of war between England and France for 50 years of peace under the EU.

It can be messy, but the alternative is worst.

Very well said!

But why cannot yr beloved America trade Iraq and Afganistan wars for peace under the UN?

We just know how messy Iraqis and Afganistans have been made of by the mighty USA!rofl

[gustav]

History lesson:
It was Spanish colonial policy not to allow local Criollos (Latin Americans of Spanish decent) political and administrative power. Moreover, Spain did not allow free markets to emerge.

Therefore Spain had a monopoly of power and weath.

The rebellion against Spainish rule happend during the backdrop of the Napleonic Wars led by aristocratic Criollos with the backing of Great Britian.

It was not a popular class / political driven revolution in a classical sense, but a revolution of land owners seeking new markets.

A bit like the American war of Independence that was triggered by the enduring British monopoly on trade concerning the exchange of its colonies. The so called captive markets.

[Ordie]

Ordie, I feel you are being bookwormish, playing word games between colonize and conquer like that!

Both Pizzaro and Hernan Cortez were Conquistadores.

Both were not your benevolent bureaucrats, but soldiers acting without authorization from the crown to conquer two empires and its riches. (much of the credit should be given to smallpox).

[Shuimo]

Both Pizzaro and Hernan Cortez were Conquistadores.

Both were not your benevolent bureaucrats, but soldiers acting without authorization from the crown to conquer two empires and its riches. (much of the credit should be given to smallpox).

Shall we call that un-licensed raw colonialism?rofl

[Ordie]

Shall we call that un-licensed raw colonialism?rofl

The attitudes and views from Spain at that time saw the expansion of its empire into the Americas as an extension of the Reconquista of the Iberian Penninsula from Arab Moors in 1492. The same year of Columbus's voyage to the Americas.

If there was ever a license, look up the Treaty of Tordesillas of 1494 where the Pope divided the world between the Portugese and Spanish.

[Notlim]

Shall we call that un-licensed raw colonialism?rofl

what is your point Shuimo, been reading your posts, either Confucius taught you back in the day , or you just going about nothing,,,,

[Ordie]

what is your point Shuimo, been reading your posts, either Confucius taught you back in the day , or you just going about nothing,,,,

They don't teach Latin American history in China. If so, its from old Marxist textbooks.

[Shuimo]

The attitudes and views from Spain at that time saw the expansion of its empire into the Americas as an extension of the Reconquista of the Iberian Penninsula from Arab Moors in 1492. The same year of Columbus's voyage to the Americas.

If there was ever a license, look up the Treaty of Tordesillas of 1494 where the Pope divided the world between the Portugese and Spanish.

why not into France or Britain but went out of the lengthy unknown way into America?

That is funny!

Ordie, yr knowledge and attitudes of history pertaning to Latin America appals me!rofl

Forget the licence stuff! it was just the fig cloth if ever!rofl

[tattooman]

Ordie you know a little about spanish america, spanique first conquered and in second term colonize and convert america in a new spain:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viceroyalty_of_New_Spain

The Spanish legacy is deep in spite of mas of a century of uncompression and rancor after the independence.

[Shuimo]

what is your point Shuimo, been reading your posts, either Confucius taught you back in the day , or you just going about nothing,,,,

you need to re-educated yrself before engagerofl in enlightened dialogue with Shuimo!

[Notlim]

you need to re-educated yrself before engagerofl in enlightened dialogue with Shuimo!

fair enough! about nothing then,, rofl

[Shuimo]

Ordie you know a little about spanish america, spanique first conquered and in second term colonize and convert america in a new spain:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viceroyalty_of_New_Spain

The Spanish legacy is deep in spite of mas of a century of uncompression and rancor after the independence.

Ordie could hardly befuddle any informed folks with a knowledge of modern world history!rofl

[Shuimo]

They don't teach Latin American history in China. If so, its from old Marxist textbooks.
as if you know what it is like in the teaching scape of China!

Let me clarify this:

WE teach history from the perspective of socialism with Chinese characteristics, period!rofl

[visigothum]

Before you post with assumptions with stupid smilies, I highly recommend you read and COMPREHEND Spanish and Latin American history, politics and society.

Keep in mind, what kept and ruled Spain for centuries is a tripod of the Church, King and Army. Today the Church is becomming irrelevant, the Royal family are figureheads, and the Army answers to a democrtically elected government.

Given that the EU is an umbrella for funding, the regions of Spain are no longer dependent upon Madrid, therefore the Catalans, Basques and Gallicians are flauting thier autonomy, just as the Scots, Flemish and other regional groups are doing the same.

Enter new Spanish citizens from abroad who are Castillian speakers, then you might see a change in local Spanish politics. The Catalans, Basques, and Galicians may see the new Castillian speaking arrivals as a political threat.



hello. we have 17 regions + 2 cities autonomous like a federal state in fact. in Galicia the winner of the regional elections is the conservative and centralist-national party Partido Popular. The second is the socialist party (national- not nationalist).
In the Vasque Country. the winner is de Partido Nacionalista VAsco, but the non-nacionalist are more.
in the catalonia are more dificult for explain. it is more for internal reasons that for independent spirit. (corruptions:oops:, ) The people of this regions NOT want the independence.
sorry, but my english is very bad.:)
tswoot

[Jorel001]

I am new here... and just let me give you my two cents on the subject at hand. I apologize for the extend of it but you might find something good after reading it.

I am from Panama and I live in the country I was born, and probably I will live the rest of my life here. I did study abroad, and I had the luck of enjoying other countries' cultures and lifestyles, but I decided on making my life in my homeland. Having said that, let me say that not everyone in Latin America feels that they should migrate to another country to make it better. To migrate to another country is not something easy to come up with. Those who have migrated to another country have because... one, they thought they could do better somewhere else, and two, because someone else spoke to them about the wonders of moving to another country and getting a better life there, most likely giving a false sense of security on what they were saying. Most of the people who live on the USA and Europe, and who care about paying attention to emigrants' issues see the new migrants as just another problem for them. Granted, if they weren't bringing problems at all... and if they were came with money in they pockets (good money that is), and would not take jobs from nationals, they wouldn't be a problem to begin with. We all have to agree with that, but that is not the case for almost 99 per cent of them. People in the USA, Canada, and Europe (not everyone I must admit) wouldn't care one bit about migrants if they were invisible, if their reality wouldn't touch their doors, but they do, and yes, migrants do have a "visible" bagage to some extent, but everyone, and that includes you and me, must admit that this reality will not change one bit, unless we, as a society, as one, all change our attitudes towards migrants, and stop seeing them as pest, and I am not speaking about Latin Americans or Africans... that happens to Americans moving to Europe, an European family moving to Connecticut, or a Canadian couple moving to Panama. Locals tend to see the new arrivals as a threat... but has anyone consider them as an added value to our lives? What needs to be done is to stop seeing them as a threat.

Indeed, once migrants start "pouring in" we see that our way of life is threatened. Yes, that has happened to us in Panama, yeah... right, Panama? Where is Panama anyway? is that a Country? Well.... let me tell you, yes, we are a country, we are a society, we are one people. And just like Europeans or Americans, we come from different people, different societies, and those who were born here plus those who decided to start a new life here decided on building a better country and a better life for all, and do you know what is funny? It's been better for everyone, yeah, it is difficult to see it a first glance but look deeper and you will see that opening to new things, new people, new products, new ways to do things, new ways to see things, it's all just better for everyone.

Now I am not advocating that what we have done here (be in purpose or just by pure, sheer luck) is what the EU or the US has to do. Granted, we haven't felt the "waves" of "bad migrants" that the Northern Hemisphere has gotten in the last 30 years. But we in Panama have felt the same "overwhelming" sense of seeing new migrants from other countries taking over our lifestyles, culture, and jobs. That's not something that will change overnight, and it does happens, but like in all aspects of life, there is another side of it, a positive one too.

Those who tend to "speak their minds" for whatever thing that crosses their nose, are the ones who "incite" the whole false nationalistic, anti-emigrant views here, and narrow-minded people do not have a nationality, they are everywhere, and we have them here in Panama, in Spain, France, UK or in small-town America or in any street in the big cities in the USA. Yes, something must be done, but first, we need to change the way we see the "problem" and also change ourselves... these "problems" are ---people--- just like you and me.

And what does all this banter has to do with us here...? why should we bother? Well, the subject is about Spain wanting to get closer ties with Latin America, and some of you guys started taking the "emigrants" subject and I decided on doing my part of making some people understand, where ever that might be, on the street or on a blog, that we all should start thinking differently about emigrants... yes, they sort of bring problems, but have you consider what causes those problems? and whoever decided that emigrants mean problems? If they were to arrive to your neighborhood and poured money on your town, freely, no strings attached, on your local school, revamping your main street, plating new trees, rebuilding your local hospital, or joining your armed forces and subject themselves to be first in the line of fire in any military action, would you say anything against them? really, would you? No, right?

What Spain is trying to do is to tackle two things at once... getting closer with those who share its language, culture, and religion, and trying to profit from that move (China is profiting from it big time and has no cultural background with us other than their own Chinese migrants who dot play any major part or role in our cultural or political systems).

Yes, it sounds hypocrate to say that all Spain wants to do is to have better relations with their Latin American counterparts, but do guess what? The Spaniards are trying to tackle their own problem with emigrants by building closer ties with old cousins, by bridging the gap between the poor and the rich by giving employment opportunies to those in the middle and lower classes so they could prosper in their own small towns and cities so they won't feel that they have to migrate to Spain where a cousin or an old neighbor went to and started a new life.

And you would ask, what should us, in the Industrilized world care? Why do we have to do other than close the borders and build walls and make the whole customs and inmigration process harder for "non-Europeans and non-Americans" to come to the US and Europe?

What industrialized nations must to is to use some of the money they give to Latin Americans countries for leverage and politics (because they do), bribing governments so they won't turn to the "Latin American Left", and re-course it, marry it to the countries' small and middle-sized enterprises initiatives, whether the people who would be receiving these funds are registered in the political party currently in office. These funds must be given to people based on real initiatives, financially-sound projects, and enterprises that actually will turn into a small company which will turn into a profitable enterprise that will pay taxes, will pay for the social security and health benefits for its employees, and which will turn into a social beacon for others to see as a future, right on the towns they live. All of this might sound too ideallistic to you all but it works.

This is not about "extending the hand to the poor". I am one who believes in giving people a chance, but not by giving them free food and free money for nothing. When people work for their money, they respect it more, and see life differently.

What happens with the migrants moving to the US and Europe is that they keep going there because someone who has crossed the border or the big ditch keeps telling the ones left behind that everything is great and that they make tons of money, and that they have the big house four rooms and the fridge they always wished for, and that is not the truth for everyone. Some people start dreaming with just a simple lie, and we all should do something about it other than building fences or making it more expensive and bureaucratic the migration process. Yes, there should be some thinking on the latter, yes, but I think is more humane to start using money more wisely, and see the potential in investing in small and middle-size enterprises in Latin America, giving these people the oportunity to start a new life right there in their home countries.

You would be surprised what the outcome of it might be. And you could marry these initiatives with things like using technicians and parts from donor nations (the ones giving the money). "Hey, if they are going to use my money, they better use our products and services". It is just like the grain issue from the US to China. Grain exports from the US as an aid to China's poor must be sent through an American Exporter, through an American Shipping company, on a America-flag, American-built vessel, and an American-connected private importer company in China, suppervised by American interest there. If the US is going to pay for free grain shipments, US Nationals will benefit from that move. Well... same thing here.

The Northern Industrialized countries must start thinking about investing in Latin America and in Africa as a way to reduce the migrant flows to their own countries. They better start soon because it might just get worst. I know, it is happening here in Panama, and we are doing something about it. Sorry guys... if you were one of the ones who actually read the whole thing, please do think better of us in Latin America, and I apologize for making it so long for you to read. Cheers!!!!

[Knutsen]

Here are my thoughts.

Spain is a country known for its political and regional factions. Most people from Spain will regard themselves as Catalan or Gallego rather than Spanish. Devolution of political power under the auspices of EU membership made Madrid less relevant as a political capital.
.


You seem to know Spain much better than the average member of this forum, but this part i'm quoting is wrong. I'll use rough numbers in my explanation:

Spain has around 45 million inhabitants.
Out of Spain's 17 autonomous regions + 2 autonomous cities , there are 3 of them with significant "separatist" history, Galicia, Cataluña (Catalonia) and the basque country (there are also some residual separatist strongholds, but they represent few thousand people).

Galicia: 2,5 million
Catalonia: 7 million
Basque country: 2 million.

The "separatist" total is 11,5 million, around 25%.

You probably know that these independentist movements are not massive, so let's use the numbers of the regional parliaments:

Catalonia: 135 seats, 81 of them represent "separatist" parties. (60%)
Basque country: 75 seats, 36 of them represent "separatists" (48%)
Galicia: 75 seats, 12 of them represent "separatists" (16%).

In terms of population, we can say that the separatists are:

Catalonia = 4,2 million
B.C. = 0,96 million
Gal = 0,4 million


In the end, out of 45 million spaniards, 5,5 don't feel spanish. Obviously i have simplified things ,for instance, i used the number of seats in the parliament which excludes underage population , but the result is illustrative enough.

The conclusion here is that saying MOST spaniards don't even feel spanish is absolutely wrong. Spain is much more than Madrid, Barcelona and the crazy ETA guys,

[LRPV]

Spanish (Castillian) is probably the second largest language in the United States due to annexation of the American southwest.



I noted trhis...p-)

[boreal]

Familiarity, attitudes and norms trumps language every time.

Not all Latin Americans have Spanish roots.

In places such as Mexico, Central America and Andean region, local indigenous customs, languages, and food predominate the landscape.

In the Carribbean, African roots is everywhere.

In places such as Argentina and Uruguay, the predominant culture, ethincity and customs is Italian or other European.

Places such as Lima, Peru its a polyglot of Incan, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese and others. Where one could order sweet & sour guinea pig and wash it down with pisco.

In terms of mass media, Mexican and Brazilian Soap Operas are standard. Programming from Spain is not as popular as it is difficult to understand (and harsh on the ears) for the common Latin Americans. Spanish Language CNN is understandable.

Latin Americans who claim Spanish citizenship, are most likely decendants of political exiles of the Spanish Civil War or immigrants from Galicia to Argentina.

Spanish (Castillian) is probably the second largest language in the United States due to annexation of the American southwest and immigration. By in large 2nd generation of immigrants tend to be fluent in both Spanish and English with no formal training. However, many immigrants see English as the language of economic opportunity.

Many Latin Americans are adopting English as a means to economic growth as well. Especially in high tech and tourism.

InUruguay the main etnicity is the spanish, not the italian.

[Shuimo]

Thank you all for yr contribution to debunk the errors and mistakes in Ordie's posts!

[Ordie]

Thank you all for yr contribution to debunk the errors and mistakes in Ordie's posts!

We learn something new every day.

Including from my Argentine Dad.

He claims that all Spanish people are Gallegos, Uruguay is just another Argentine Provence, and Panama was a creation of the United States fast becoming a Chinese client state filled with Venezuelans.

Ans Spain will never win a World Cup without Argentine players.

[Shuimo]

We learn something new every day.

Including from my Argentine Dad.

He claims that all Spanish people are Gallegos, Uruguay is just another Argentine Provence, and Panama was a creation of the United States fast becoming a Chinese client state filled with Venezuelans.

Ans Spain will never win a World Cup without Argentine players.

Just take care of yr big mouth, Ordie!
I thought you just fumbled with China-related mattters only!
But now I found you fumbled with Spain- and Latin America-related matters as well!
I suppose you fare worse in more things outside US.rofl

[BloodyTalon]

Just take care of yr big mouth, Ordie!
I thought you just fumbled with China-related mattters only!
But now I found you fumbled with Spain- and Latin America-related matters as well!
I suppose you fare worse in more things outside US.rofl
And what, pray tell, gives you the authority to determine whether Ordie's assessment on what's going on in Latin America is truthful or not? Judging by the comments from other members in this thread, including those who live in both Spain and Latin America, his analysis is mostly correct. The only voice of dogged dissent is you; the chicom that's butthurt that he keeps making you look like an idiot in your threads.

[Shuimo]

And what, pray tell, gives you the authority to determine whether Ordie's assessment on what's going on in Latin America is truthful or not? Judging by the comments from other members in this thread, including those who live in both Spain and Latin America, his analysis is mostly correct. The only voice of dogged dissent is you; the chicom that's butthurt that he keeps making you look like an idiot in your threads.
You need to read the posts of other posters more carefullly with yr brains!rofl

[muttbutt]

You need to read the posts of other posters more carefullly with yr brains!rofl
Your a trolling ****, who's on a speedy (German) maglev train to getting kicked out of here......brains enough for ya?...or just balls?

[matthew.manhorn]

Just take care of yr big mouth, Ordie!
I thought you just fumbled with China-related mattters only!
But now I found you fumbled with Spain- and Latin America-related matters as well!
I suppose you fare worse in more things outside US.rofl

Ordie's a Hispanic man, plus who cares on what he posts. MP.net is not the CCP government, try not to judge people of what they say from a Chicom's perspective.

[seraosha]

Everybody chill.

Getting mad at shuimo is like teasing a little barking dog...eventually watching him get so riled up he starts to piss himself is low entertainment at best.

And Jorel001, thank you for a well thought out and nicely written first post. Looking forward to more!

[Hollis]

You need to read the posts of other posters more carefullly with yr brains!rofl


Out side of trolling this thread, do you really have anything to offer?

Any ways, enjoy the holiday and think about a better way to post your comments in the future.

[tattooman]

We learn something new every day.

Including from my Argentine Dad.

He claims that all Spanish people are Gallegos, Uruguay is just another Argentine Provence, and Panama was a creation of the United States fast becoming a Chinese client state filled with Venezuelans.

Ans Spain will never win a World Cup without Argentine players.


touché.......................:)

[el borracho]

... and Panama was a creation of the United States...

That's true. The US tried to get Colombia to sell us the canal zone, they refused so we triggered a civil war to wrest Panama from their control.

[Ordie]

It's a shame really since Shuimo was one of the smarter China posters who was willing to admit China is not perfect a while back. Too bad he went off on the deep end.

No hard feelings on my part.

nuf said.

Thanks

[zad]

We learn something new every day.

Including from my Argentine Dad.

He claims that all Spanish people are Gallegos


During the 19th and 20th centuries, there would be an influx of Spanish immigrants to Argentina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina) from all over Spain, after the creation of the modern Argentinian state. Between 1857 and 1940, more than 2 million Spanish people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_people) emigrated to Argentina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina), mostly from Galicia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_%28Spain%29), Basque Country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_Country_%28autonomous_community%29), Asturias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asturias), Cantabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria), Catalonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia) in northern Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain), and also from Andalusia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusia) in southern Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain).
Galician Spaniards make up 70% of the Spanish population in Argentina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina). The city with the second greatest number of Galician people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galician_people) is Buenos Aires (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buenos_Aires), where immigration from Galicia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia) was so important that today all Spaniards, regardless of their origin within Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain), are often referred to as gallegos (Galicians) in Argentina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina).
Also, around 10% of the Argentine population descend from Basque people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_people), both Spanish and French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France), and are described as Basque Argentines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_Argentine). They gather in several Basque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque) cultural centres installed in most large cities in the country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Argentine

In Argentina, gallegos is also a tongue in check term used to name spaniards. Although no spaniard will feel ofended if someone call him that. :)

[Sada]

Latin American Herald Tribune
5/12/2009
MADRID – Spain’s King Juan Carlos and Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero said Monday that the upcoming bicentennials of Latin American independence should be used to promote Spanish and European Union ties to the region.

At a ceremony in the Casa de America in Madrid, the monarch and Zapatero inaugurated observances of the bicentennials that begin this year in Bolivia and Ecuador, and will continue in 2010 in Mexico, Argentina, Venezuela, Colombia and Chile.

The two men told an audience of Latin American and European notables that Spain and Latin American need to work together to boost the Ibero-American community’s international influence.

The king said that during Spain’s six-month tenure of the EU presidency, which begins Jan. 1, 2010, Madrid will promote “a qualitative leap forward” in Europe’s relations with Latin America and the Caribbean.

Zapatero, for his part, spoke of Spain’s wish to “accompany” the true leaders of the bicentennials, with “a view to the future, confidence in the present and wisdom of the past,” all the while respecting “the diversity of cultures.”

After saying that “Spain is a country that cannot be understood without Ibero-America,” he called for a new stage of greater collaboration to make the most of shared values like language while promoting such areas as education and research.

In a similar vein, Spanish Foreign Minister Miguel Angel Moratinos urged the forging of a “triangle” made up of the United States, Europe and Latin America.

That Atlantic triangle “continues to be” responsible for 62.5 percent of the global gross domestic product, added Spain’s plenipotentiary ambassador for the commemoration of Latin American Independence, former Premier Felipe Gonzalez. EFE

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=334411&CategoryId=12394
Hello, it´s the first time I post here but I´ve been peeping this forum from time to time and I don´t feel the need to say my opinion, just prefer reading threads about things I don´t know or in some way related with my country to learn about different points of view, but I´ve read in this thread so many inexactitudes and wrong datas(I don´t say "fantasies" because I don´t want to sound rude, specially if it´s my first post) about my country, Spain, that I just can´t recognize the country I live in on what I´ve read.
About the information that began this thread, published by Dragunov, they are being written some opinion articles lately in Spain, today it was published this article in El Pais that I´d say coincides with my own opinions:
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/internacional/Bicentenarios/autocritica/elpepuint/20090520elpepiint_10/Tes

Some members here talked or asked about the spanish language and if it´s and useful tool, well, I´d say it´s fundamental for Spain, it´s just a richness you couldn´t pay with money, and I think most of hispanophones countries consider it in the same way, and in some way we, spaniards, are looking with interest how hispano-latino emigrants in USA are a factor that help our companies to facilitate their expansion in USA just for being there. Today Spain is the second biggest investor in America Latina(hispanophones countries and Brazil included) and most of the big spanish investors have their american central services located in Florida-USA because security reasons, developped financial and communications systems of that state and last but non less important, because they can live there talking all day spanish, and it´s not like a new reconquist of Florida but it´s just that USA administrations(local and federal level) give facilities us to be there. In the case that Mexico, a very important country for spanish banks, enjoyed a better level of security I think it would be the obvious center for spanish activies in America, perhaps with the exception of the south of SAmerica(Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay and Chile), may be in a medium term it could be.
Some members ask if there could be some kind of commonwealth or like a francophonie organization. Well, there isn´t a political organization that joins american nations and Spain, but communication among our countries it´s fluid and frequent, it´s easy and comfortable for a spaniard travelling to hispanoamerica, fact it´s that spaniards living there have easy to integrate in that societies, and in some way we consider latin America as "cosa nostra", many more spaniards emigrated to America after indepence of that republics than in the three centuries before, and looking at southamericans how they behave and act here in Spain, I think they consider too Spain like something of their property, they are foreigners but not too much, that´s good. Other different thing it´s relations at the level state-to-state that can be variated depending of the situation. Tipically, Spanish governments since late XIX tried to keep a good relationship with american republics and never broking diplimatic relations even if some american republic had a complete different policy of that followed by Spain, in the case of american republics I don´t know what was their behaviour towards us case per case, I only know what happened with the biggest of them(Mexico, Argentina,...). For example, although Franco was a extrem right wing dictator, he always kept open spanish ambasade in Cuba after communists took the power.
Well, there are many things to opinate, that´s enough for now.
Edit: I forgot to mention about the issue of the language. Actually, the "castillian"(the spanish so to speak) was used as a political tool by Castilla kings since the Medioeval Age, detrimental to galician-portuguese, basque(spoken in Navarra kingdom) and catalan(spoken in most of territories of Aragon Crown), and a castillian grammar was published just around the time fight agaisnt moor was finished in Granda and Columbus expedition. The target of this grammar wasn´t only cultural but fixing the language spoken by castilian queen and her officials. In the XVIII century, when the Bourbon dinasty came to Spain, they organized an Spanish Language Academy and this together with the fact that they liquidated institutions of Aragon Crown further expanded castillian(spanish) languaged insided Spain while catalan language had to cede territory, the gallician-portuguese had been erradicated of administrative institutions two centuries ago by queen Isabel. So when american republics win their independence in early XIX, they all spoke fully correct spanish and they kept using the same dictionaries and grammars that in Spain. Today, the spanish dictionary published by spanish academy is elaborated by academics of all hispanophones countries, cultural communication is very fluid and actually it always was like that.

[Sada]

sorry, duplicated. I don´t know how to erase it.

[Sada]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Argentine

In Argentina, gallegos is also a tongue in check term used to name spaniards. Although no spaniard will feel ofended if someone call him that. :)
Not us the galicians, certainly! We have strong shoulders for being offended for that,I´d just like argentines wouldn´t feel offended when they are called "sudacas" or "italindios"(listened last saturday and tongue in cheek of course!);)

[Ordie]

Not us the galicians, certainly! We have strong shoulders for being offended for that,I´d just like argentines wouldn´t feel offended when they are called "sudacas" or "italindios"(listened last saturday and tongue in cheek of course!);)

Don't worry.
Argentines are equal opportunity offenders.

Argentines call:

All Jews as Rusos (Russians)
All Arabs as Turcos (Turks)
All Italians as Tanos (Neoploitans)
All Britons as Ingleses (English)
All other Europeans as Gringos (Americans)

and of course

All Spanyards as Gallegos (Galicians)

[Sada]

Hello again and excuse me for bringing back this thread, I just don´t
connect oftenly to the forum but I remember what I was reading last time
and there were many things I like to say my opinions about them and in
other points just correcting what are plaing wrong facts. Here I go:


1.Someone above talked about Spain being known because its political "factions", this term could be considered frankly derogative if applied to other country. Here we have political partyes. Regions, or nationalities or nations as some parts of Spain can be called are just the expresion of a state formed by the union of several previous kingdoms with different languages which began their existance, the oldest ones, around the year 720a.C., last incorporation was around 1512(Navarra). Spain was the first modern state of Europe still in existance, this is a fact, what we organized here 500 years ago was just finished by some of the biggest european countries only 130 years ago and still with the problems we faced I dare to say this old ship will keep sailing more centuries ahead than many of the countries born in the last 200 years. It´s evident Spain has needed some deep refits, so to speak, but it´s logical considering we´ve sailed more miles than anybody in this part of the world and if we compare ourserlves with other countries 3000km around the clock, considering the resources we´ve available and the circumstances we faces, frankly I think we didn´t do bad.

2.Rural population declined heavily in Spain since middle of the 50s decade
of last century until the end of the 60s of same century, when plans for an
economic self-sufficience economy failed and an economic reform for a free market economy system was done in 1957. Rural population years ago(with
some notorius exception I´ll talk in next point),can´t decline any more in
Spain, in fact many of our provinces are almost emptied with the exception
of the district capital, in the country only live the people that a modern
agriculture can employ since many years ago.

3.Inmigrants don´t came to Spain to fill the void in the country, in fact the
spanish country was emptied because spanish rural population hurried to
work in new spanish industries in the cities or emigrated to the european
countries that began they reconstruction when Marshall plan was at full
speed. Inmigrants came to Spain mainly to work in housing industry, service
sector and the ones working in agriculture are in such places like Murcia or
Almeria which were the exceptions mentioned before, because in this
provinces intensive agriculture thanks to new irrigation methods enabled
arid zones to become very fertil in the decade of 60s. This process began in
late 60´s and early 70s, and grew up sharply in the middle of 80´s after
spanish entry in EU(1985), and it´s only after the end of economical
recession of 1992-1993 that inmigrants flooded Spain. The rest of spanish
agriculture had had their own reform before as I said or even had been
reduced in production capabilites(specially sectors like dairy farming which
just now are in the brink of dissapearing).
4.Very few latinoamericans descend from exiliated of spanish civil war. Actually from USA to Argentina, most of countries were just closed or reticent in the best case to spanish republicans. As much as it can sound cool saying that someone has a spanish grandfather in America that scaped from fascism, more probably than not he just was an economic inmigrant looking for a better life. Only a handful of privileged exiliated could reach american continent. The big masses of republicans that could leave Spain
were to french camps(metropolitan France and Algeria)
5.Giving citenship to foreing people who are grandsons of spanish(only one
spanish grandparent is needed with the law designed by present
government) really don´t answer to a need of spanish citizens but of
spanish politics for getting more votes and to say it loudly it´s unpopular
here, nobody asked for it. One of the reasons that former regional
government in Galicia lost elections three months ago is because they
didn´t reforme the unfair law that give the right to vote in our local
elections people living out of Spain, mainly in Argentina, Uruguay or Venezuela where there are about 120.000 argentines who never were in Spain and can vote in our local elections without never been here nor paying a cent in our taxes, not only that but there was a scandal with the no-identification procedures they have for voting in our elections: there were censed more galicians older than 100years in Buenos Aires than in Galicia itself although nobody had seen them. Although in the last election they weren´t decisive, the vote of "american" galicians was decissive at least a couple of times before.
6. About what a memeber asked above, in Spain we didn´t favour
latinoamerican inmigrants because of the colour nor we couldn´t do it
legally in the last 120 years, the time of our Civil Code, it´s not something
reciprocal in S.American where they had strict migratories policies regarding nationalities and races as incredible as it can sound today. If given the
chance, I´d prefer strongly having as job fellow an andean guy born near Titicaca lake than a disfunctional guy called Hector or Hugo or whatever
born in a big SAmerican city looking like me but with his usual world
wisedom and "viveza criolla" and all that stuff, Well, I´m joking with
stereotypes but in essence I couldn´t work 8 hours a day with someone
that I can´t stand, and that´s more a question regarding the morality and
education of the said person next to you than his skin colour, isn´t it? To
be fair people are as open about race in Portugal, France, Netherland and in
a lesser extension in GB as in Spain, talking about the places I know more or less well, but I´d say in general in west europe people don´t look at racial origines with such big attention as in American(both anglo and latino american countries).
And this is all for tonight, excuse me for the endless paper! ;)