Waco Siege - Final Report NatGeo

[CPLHUNTER]

Good investigative report on Waco 1993

In my opinion the siege at Waco amounts to a human tragedy in terms of lost lives and the absolute lack of control on the part of the FBI and ATF.

Such an attack was based on "concerned" citizen claims that the Branch Davidians possessed fully automatic weapons which was not the case.

Crazy to see what happens when you decide to remove yourself from society, possess lots of weapons and engage in some bump fire

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/final-report/2537/Overview#tab-Photos/3

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege

[SBL]

Crazy to see what happens when you decide to remove yourself from society, possess lots of weapons and engage in some bump fire


You failed to mention that David Koresh was a total nutcase.

[CPLHUNTER]

With the history of Waco, I figured I didn't need to mention the obvious about Koresh :)

[Skukuza]

The government fukked up and that sums them up.

[LaoSexMachine]

We Aint Coming Out.

[CG51]

Go back to what you are suppose to do America, consumption, cheap Wal mart junk, fast food, cars, bling. The government is in control. You are free to do as we tell you! You are free to do as we tell you! You are free to do as we tell you! p-)

Not the kinda church I have ever heard of, one posessing lots of rifles and ammo.

243 total firearms, including two 50 caliber semi-automatic rifles, numerous tactical rifles (semiautomatic AK-47s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47) and AR-15s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15)), shotguns, revolvers and pistols[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege#cite_note-fbi_restraint-5)
46 semiautomatic firearms modified to fire in full automatic mode (included on above list): 22 M-16 Type Rifles, 20 AK-47 Type Rifles, 2 Heckler and Koch SP-89, 2 M-11/Nine[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege#cite_note-treasury_memorandum-6)
two AR-15 lower receivers also modified to fire in full automatic mode[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege#cite_note-treasury_memorandum-6)
4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege#cite_note-treasury_memorandum-6)

Now that's a church that has faith in mankind.

[Dominique]

and the absolute lack of control on the part of the FBI and ATF.

Mind explaining how the ATF and FBI were "out of control"?

[CG51]

Out of control is a loose term. Bad planing and policy is probably what he means.

[Laconian]

Iknow it's alot of reading but you may want to read the final report: http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco281.html

[Irons]

Mind explaining how the ATF and FBI were "out of control"?

I think anyone who uses a cattle trailer as a personnel carrier, or walks up to an armed compound in Ninja Gear from the outset is kinda "out of control." I don't believe in the conspiracy side of this deal, but I do believe in the "bumbling toward conspiracy" that did occur. That's pretty out of control for an agency that were supposed to be "professionals." Then again, I think this was the first time the ATF had anyone shoot back at them in a serious way. They learned a valuable lesson, and the rest is history. I don't think they'll be so "out of control" again unless they're just dying for another taste of "whoop-a*s." Man Dom, you're a smart guy right? None of that crossed your mind? I don't see how it couldn't have to be honest with you.

[NeedsABetterName]

I think anyone who uses a cattle trailer as a personnel carrier, or walks up to an armed compound in Ninja Gear from the outset is kinda "out of control." I don't believe in the conspiracy side of this deal, but I do believe in the "bumbling toward conspiracy" that did occur. That's pretty out of control for an agency that were supposed to be "professionals." Then again, I think this was the first time the ATF had anyone shoot back at them in a serious way. They learned a valuable lesson, and the rest is history. I don't think they'll be so "out of control" again unless they're just dying for another taste of "whoop-a*s." Man Dom, you're a smart guy right? None of that crossed your mind? I don't see how it couldn't have to be honest with you.

So, with the possibility that they (Branch Davidians) were in possession of .50 caliber sniper rifles, automatic rifles, and a whole slew of other things, the ATF should have just walked up, knocked, and asked politely to inspect their little stash?

Wasn't the ATF serving a warrant originally? With the possibility of those weapons inside, and a nutcase who probably wouldn't mind using them (in hindsight, he obviously had no problem killing a couple of ATF agents), what would you do?

The siege that ensued? Poorly planned, poorly executed. "Just a few more days, let me finish the seven seals and make a couple radio broadcasts, and then I'll come out" gets old after forty or so days.

[Hollis]

Iknow it's alot of reading but you may want to read the final report: http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco281.html


Maybe this is very sage advice for those who want to continue to express their opinions on the topic. Would be nice to have all your ducks in order.

[LaoSexMachine]

Maybe this is very sage advice for those who want to continue to express their opinions on the topic. Would be nice to have all your ducks in order.


Don't waste your time, Hollis. The anti-government nuts here in Texas don't care. They like to make up their own truths.

[Irons]

Don't waste your time, Hollis. The anti-government nuts here in Texas don't care. They like to make up their own truths.


Smartest man in the room, and there-in lay the real problem. The ATF didn't understand their opponent, seriously underestimated them, and ended up creating a mythology. That mythology is permanent now. They forgot the rule that no matter how tough and rightious you think you may be, there is always somebody tougher out there.

That's the thing with authority, it's Damocles Sword; one screw-up and it lands on your head. You've got to be tough AND smart. It's a tall order. Just having a writ of authority is inconsequential compared to winning and doing it right.

Seriously, the ATF is NEVER going to escape this cloud. I think they'd do better to disband and come up with a new structure, and new name, but there are careers involved so doing the smart thing isn't going to happen.

[seraosha]

Don't waste your time, Hollis. The anti-government nuts here on Earth don't care. They like to make up their own truths.

Fixed it for you.

[Irons]

They might have even pulled it out, right up to the point they raised that flag over the ashes of that compound like some kind of conquering army instead of a public service institution that is funded by, and totally beholden to the civilians who are their ultimate bosses. A lot of Americans had no sympathy for Koresh, or even his f*cktarded followers, but when the ATF "broke tough" then pulled back, sent in tanks, burned up the kids in the process, then raised a flag like it was Iwo Jima, and said: "We had no choice" they broke the bond of trust. ATF now is almost a metaphor for the best way to get non-compliance from people. They have turned their organization into a public relations nightmare. I feel bad for the agents that were just doing their jobs, but the leadership, and command & control failed, and they won the battle, but permenatly lost the war. Nobody trusts them anymore, and Koresh becomes almost a Robin Hood. In time even the evil that the man represented will pale in comparison to they myth. People will forget, make up their own stories, and probably sing songs about the b*stard in a few decades.

[Fargin]

Hiding behind women and children, not my kind of myth.

[Irons]

Hiding behind women and children, not my kind of myth.

Ok, so that's every criminal ever. The "good guys" are supposed be so clever and tough that they figure out a way to get around that. Also, I'm sure Prince John said the same thing about old Hood when he used his women at road blocks. You're talking about the way it is here, not the way it should be, when talking of myth creation.

I'm not for the Davidians, they were twisted and sick. But I and everybody else expected more from the ATF. There were so many chances to do it at least better. If they had pressed the attack, or not used tanks it would have at least made them look brave. Nobody respects somebody who initiates a fight, gets bloodied, and then goes off to get all their "friends" to come help out. Then they planted that d*mned flag, like they were on forigen soil. That alienated a lot of people from them. They came off looking like over funded kids playin army at the tax payers expenense, then running from a stand-up fight, only to return with their bodyguards, and patting themselves on the back for it.

I'm well aware of the reality, but the reality of the situation is not what sunk the ATF. It's the myth they delivered on a silver plate to the Davidians, and the threatening authoritarian symbol they used that flag for at the end. Most people, especially in Texas, don't take kindly to intimidation, and they do love their myths. Nuff said. F-it.

[ferguson]

What is clear is that the extremist waco wacko, Koresh, could have been nabbed any number of times on his routine trips to town or about the area.

The govt created a huge needless tragedy.

I don't care about the stupid "sheep" who bought into the cult, but the children had no choice.
This and Ruby Ridge does give one cause to say "WTF?"

[Hilbert]

What is clear is that the extremist waco wacko, Koresh, could have been nabbed any number of times on his routine trips to town or about the area.

The govt created a huge needless tragedy.

I don't care about the stupid "sheep" who bought into the cult, but the children had no choice.
This and Ruby Ridge does give one cause to say "WTF?"

I remember reading an article where it mentioned Koresh went into town on a regular basis, every thursday or maybe it was every other thursday, to get his haircut by the same barber. I'd always wondered why they couldn't have simply got him on one of those trips.

[Irons]

From '89 to about '95 the US Government was involved in a low-level gorilla conflict with splinter factions of every sort, but it centered around gun-rights for lack of a more cohesive element. The end game was that between Ruby Ridge, Republic of Texas, Waco, The Freemen, Oklahoma, and several other smaller incidents, the body count, economic expenditure, and loss of Political, and Authoritative power was all to the Governments detriment. They lost.

It all ended, and that's history now. It all could have been avoided. I hope future leaders learn from it. It's not framed in the way that I just did, but it's there, and it meets all the requirements for a low-intensity conflict. The centralized Command & Control is not really there on the other-side, but that's neigh inconsequential. It was a bad time, and the Government basically got bloodied more than they dished out. It was all stupid in the end, and a lot of lives were ruined.

[Will Clark]

So, with the possibility that they (Branch Davidians) were in possession of .50 caliber sniper rifles, automatic rifles, and a whole slew of other things, the ATF should have just walked up, knocked, and asked politely to inspect their little stash?

Wasn't the ATF serving a warrant originally? With the possibility of those weapons inside, and a nutcase who probably wouldn't mind using them (in hindsight, he obviously had no problem killing a couple of ATF agents), what would you do?

The siege that ensued? Poorly planned, poorly executed. "Just a few more days, let me finish the seven seals and make a couple radio broadcasts, and then I'll come out" gets old after forty or so days.

Why not? As I recall the local police didn't have any trouble when they walked up to the front door and knocked on previous occasions.

And in hindsight I'm sure the ATF would agree that trying to use force against over 100 heavily armed religious zealots is a piss poor idea. The first of many in that blunder.

[Rad Resistance]

David Koresh was the second Jesus.

ATF are retards for going all gung ho on a bunch of crazy christians with automatic firearms.

[ar15]

RIP to the agents who were killed. They performed well and did what they had to do. I find the lack of support for federal agents disturbing. Some of the people in this thread should seriously take a look at the facts before they spout off with their anti government BS.

[ferguson]

I have planned and participated in a significant number of combat operations.
I was an advisor to the VN CIDG program for 18 months.

The facts remain as they are.
Those agents lives were thrown away by some people who should have lost their jobs.

There was no reason whatsoever to mount an attack on the compound.
The guy jogged outside alone and made routine trips to town.
A simple traffic stop was all that was needed.
I advise you be the one to look at the facts.

[ar15]

Thank you for your service. My uncle also fought in Vietnam. Although there were some flaws in the federal plan, I think that overall they had the right idea.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco281.html

I think that the link above explains pretty much everything.

[Brasi]

Hiding behind women and children, not my kind of myth.

You mean knowingly assaulting a compound that contains women and children don't you?

[Zarak]

The tactics and strategy of the ATF were flawed.

But when you and your little cult of crazies live in a compound with hundreds of weapons and illegally modifying firearms to full auto its extremely hard for me to feel sorry for you. Particularly when you fire the first shots.

[Brasi]

I have planned and participated in a significant number of combat operations.
I was an advisor to the VN CIDG program for 18 months.

The facts remain as they are.
Those agents lives were thrown away by some people who should have lost their jobs.

There was no reason whatsoever to mount an attack on the compound.
The guy jogged outside alone and made routine trips to town.
A simple traffic stop was all that was needed.
I advise you be the one to look at the facts.

Ferguson is spot on. There were many times Koresh could have been picked up alone and the whole thing ended piecefully, kind of loop off the head and the body withers away scenerio. The fact of the matter is Koresh and his followers knew ahead of time the ATF was coming at them strong, and the ATF informant in the compound warned ATF brass that they were fully prepared for the raid, and yet the brass continued with the operation.

I grieved for the lost federal officers lives simply for the fact they were sacrificed in order for the ATF (federal government) to show gun owners and people who disagreed with the government that this is what happens to you if you don't fall into line.

The only thing Waco did was strengthen splinter groups, make the ATf look like jack booted thugs, and cause the Oklahoma City bombing.

[Creampuff]

As an interesting side note it appears Britans22 SAS had people there in an observation capacity, well thats according to Andy mcnab in his auto bio, Chances are Delta had guys there in a similar role, a pity these guys didn't have a more hands on roll in the whole affair, might have produced a more favorable/professional out come?? does pose comitatus apply to an advisory capacity??

[hank2222]

the local sheriff at the time ask the atf why they not take him out when a couple of agents and ask them to see the weapons that in the house at the time..
the locals where kept out of the loop for they could have got the whole group to come out of the house without a fire fight going on with women and childern in the cross hairs..
plus they could have pick him up that morning when he was out doing his morning run and take him then ...
you have to remember the atf funding was up in congress at the time and they wanted to make a big time show out the raid and get them the atf names on tv to show how they where spend the people money,...
regan wanted to get rid of the atf when he took office in 1980 but was talked out of it by people in his staff..
i wonder if they where got rid of the atf how would history been change on that day..

[hank2222]

as a sidenote to this four of the agents that where killed in the first seconds of the raid that day was on bill clinton detail in 1992

[Will Clark]

The tactics and strategy of the ATF were flawed.

But when you and your little cult of crazies live in a compound with hundreds of weapons and illegally modifying firearms to full auto its extremely hard for me to feel sorry for you. Particularly when you fire the first shots.

Were there actually any illegally modified firearms recovered? And how can you not feel sorry for those that had absolutely nothing to do with breaking the law, such as the children. And following a faith isn't a crime, I'm not sure how that ties into your lack of compassion.

How do you know who fired the first shots, or are you just assuming? Both sides say the other side fired first. I find it hard to believe the Davidians wished for violence, they just expected it; they were pretty compassionate with their agreement to allow the ATF to collect their dead and wounded. That said I don't know who the hell to believe.

[Brasi]

Yeah, we'll never know for sure. I do know that Koresh stated the ATF fired through the front doors first. The claim was never verified though because the door he was speaking of disappeared, yes I said disappeared. It was a metal double door set that was not touched by the fire. They specifically wanted to look at the right door but it couldn't be located.

[CPLHUNTER]

Over the many years the Branch Davidians had existed, there was no violence involved.

Koresh was a bit crazy in terms of his religious beliefs, however that doesn't mean you send in a ton of agents to arrest somebody who has very extreme apocalyptic beliefs.

Like others said, LEO had many chances to arrest him in town or at the various gun shows he traveled to and dealt weapons at.

The accusations the ATF made such as he was stockpiling illegal weapons, dealing drugs and preparing for attacks on goverment agencies were unproven.

The ATF acted like macho tough guys with a shoot first ask questions later mentality. Same as with Ruby Ridge and Rainbow Ranch.

I do express my sorrow for agents that died and the innocents.

It boils down to this IMO: The ATF actly rashly in the beginning and got extremely embarressed. Then instead of letting the hostage negotiators handle the situation since the Branch Davidians were surrounded and not going anywhere, they chose to escalate the situation with phys ops and harressment and in the end by attacking the compound with modified tanks that pumped CS gas into there for 6 hours with complete disregard for the women and children. Then the Branch Davidians seeing their leader's prophesy come true, they choose suicide over long prison sentences. The ATF played right into Koresh's game.

They could have easily waited him out until more people trickled out and finally they ran out of food. If at that point they still choose suicide then the goverment could not have been seen as at fault.

[Dominique]

I think anyone who uses a cattle trailer as a personnel carrier, or walks up to an armed compound in Ninja Gear from the outset is kinda "out of control." I don't believe in the conspiracy side of this deal, but I do believe in the "bumbling toward conspiracy" that did occur. That's pretty out of control for an agency that were supposed to be "professionals." Then again, I think this was the first time the ATF had anyone shoot back at them in a serious way. They learned a valuable lesson, and the rest is history.

First off, they were not "out of control". Since the vast majority of you have no clue what you're talking about, lets clear up a few things. The raid team used cattle cars, because that's the equipment they had on hand, they had to be able to move a large number of people quickly, and of the available vehicles, the cattle cars were seen as the best choice. As far as "ninja gear", that was their issued tactical uniform, which is pretty similar those worn by every other tactical team operating in the US at the time.

The federal law enforcement agents murdered that day were professionals, the upper management, on the other hand were not. Most of them were political appointees, or professional bureaucrats with little to no experience in law enforcement, much less running a tactical operation. Anyone who works for the government knows that if there's a simple way to do something, odd are, that's not the wya it's going to be done, especially if you've got a new boss, as he wants to make his mark, if it's an election year, or your boss is show boating. The idiots involved in planning and ordering the raid, were new to the gig,and trying to make an impression, by showboating for the media. They are the ones that came up with the plan, and gave the execution order. They are the ones who made decision to go, even though they were informed that Koresh knew they were goign to hit the compound. I hold them just as responsible for the deaths of those agents, as I do the Dividians. Evey last one of them should have been canned, and barred from ever working in government again.

As far as lessons learned go, the entire ATF Special Response Team (SRT) program underwent a MASSIVE overhaul.Training, equipment, etc. have been standardized. Tactical medics are now assigned to teams, and other changes have been implemented to make sure something similar wouldn't happen again.

And Iron's WTF is this supposed to mean?


I don't think they'll be so "out of control" again unless they're just dying for another taste of "whoop-a*s."

Are you saying that ATF won't do there jobs, because they might get shot at at some point? That's just not going to happen. Anyone who wears a badge assumes a risk the minute they sign up for the job. The fact that at some point they may get shot at, hurt, or killed, part of the job, and you just have to accept it.


I think they'd do better to disband and come up with a new structure, and new name, but there are careers involved so doing the smart thing isn't going to happen.

It's been 16 years since the raid, why should they disband?


They might have even pulled it out, right up to the point they raised that flag over the ashes of that compound like some kind of conquering army. A lot of Americans had no sympathy for Koresh, or even his f*cktarded followers, but when the ATF "broke tough" then pulled back, sent in tanks, burned up the kids in the process, then raised a flag like it was Iwo Jima, and said: "We had no choice" they broke the bond of trust.

ATF didn't raise a flag, the flag was raised by members of the FBI HRT. No tanks were used, the FBI HRT used unarmed armored engineering vehicles, that htey barrowed from the Texas Army National Guard, to insert gas into the compound, and ATF was not involved in that portion of the operation. And what kids did they burn up, Koresh and his followed and spread various excellerants aound he compound. After the fire started, members of the HRT went into the compound, and tried to pull survivors out of the fire.


Ok, so that's every criminal ever. The "good guys" are supposed be so clever and tough that they figure out a way to get around that.

Unfortunately, real life doesn't always work out that way. It's not the movies, and the "good guys" don't always win.


But I and everybody else expected more from the ATF. There were so many chances to do it at least better. If they had pressed the attack, or not used tanks it would have at least made them look brave.

Once again, no tanks were used, nor was that ATF that used armored vehicles, it was the FBI. As far as the second part of your comment goes, I'll be blunt. You can't be that dumb. Four people got killed, and a 16 wounded, why in the hell wouldn't I use an armored vehicle if I had one? phuck, "looking brave", what you don't want to look is dead.


Nobody respects somebody who initiates a fight, gets bloodied, and then goes off to get all their "friends" to come help out.

Please tell me you're joking. If a cop calls for help, be it a local, state, or federal law enforcement officer, everyone with a badge that can get there is coming to help. We don't get paid to "fight fair" we get paid to win, win quickly, and with as little property damage, and loss of life as possible, and no really gives a damn about how many people it takes to do it.


Then they planted that d*mned flag, like they were on forigen soil. That alienated a lot of people from them. They came off looking like over funded kids playin army at the tax payers expenense, then running from a stand-up fight, only to return with their bodyguards, and patting themselves on the back for it.

As I 've already stated, it was the FBI HRT that planted the flag, not the ATF, the ATF was pulled off the perimeter, and the FBI assumed control of the incident.


What is clear is that the extremist waco wacko, Koresh, could have been nabbed any number of times on his routine trips to town or about the area.

That idea was floated, and shot down.


I grieved for the lost federal officers lives simply for the fact they were sacrificed in order for the ATF (federal government) to show gun owners and people who disagreed with the government that this is what happens to you if you don't fall into line.

WRONG. The raid happened because the ATF upper management wanted to look good for the reporters they had standing by to cover the raid, to intimidate gun owners.


The only thing Waco did was strengthen splinter groups, make the ATf look like jack booted thugs, and cause the Oklahoma City bombing.

WTF are you talking about? How did the raid cause the OKC bombing? You sound like the idiots that claim 9/11 is our fault. The OKC bombing happened for one reason and one reason only. That's becuase a group of white "Christian" religious fanatics decided to kill lots of innocent people, and blame the US government for their actions. They're no different than the Islamic extremist groups we're fighting now, and I hope every last one of them is hunted down and either killed or imprisoned.


As an interesting side note it appears Britans22 SAS had people there in an observation capacity, well thats according to Andy mcnab in his auto bio, Chances are Delta had guys there in a similar role, a pity these guys didn't have a more hands on roll in the whole affair, might have produced a more favorable/professional out come?? does pose comitatus apply to an advisory capacity??

No.

[QUOTE=Will Clark;4135378]How do you know who fired the first shots, or are you just assuming? Both sides say the other side fired first. I find it hard to believe the Davidians wished for violence, they just expected it; they were pretty compassionate with their agreement to allow the ATF to collect their dead and wounded. That said I don't know who the hell to believe.

Contrary to popular belief, when warrants are served, you don't just go kicking in the door firing at random. The ATF, unlike the Dividians, exercised fire control that day, and didn't just blaze away firing at anything that moved. The Dividians, on the other hand, randomly sprayed bullets with no regard for who, or what was hit by them. As far as know whether or not the Dividians wish for a violence, Koreash was quite clear that he wanted a confrontation with law enforcement. And Koresh didn't give a rats ass about compassion. He was trying to manipulate the entire situation. He repeatedly claimed he was going to surrender, if he was allowed to make statements, and then once he was given what he asked for, he'd renege on the deal.


The ATF acted like macho tough guys with a shoot first ask questions later mentality. Same as with Ruby Ridge and Rainbow Ranch.

ATF had little to nothing to do with Ruby Ridge. The initial shootout, in which Sammy Weaver, and DUSM =----- Degan were killed, involved the US Marshals Service Special Operations Group (SOG), not the ATF. The FBI assumed responsibility, an brought in the HRT. While there were some ATF SRT personnel around the perimeter, it was a member of the HRT that shot Vicki Weaver.

[CPLHUNTER]

ATF had little to nothing to do with Ruby Ridge. The initial shootout, in which Sammy Weaver, and DUSM =----- Degan were killed, involved the US Marshals Service Special Operations Group (SOG), not the ATF. The FBI assumed responsibility, an brought in the HRT. While there were some ATF SRT personnel around the perimeter, it was a member of the HRT that shot Vicki Weaver.

Good thought out responses. I agree that ATF was not involved mainly in the attack at Ruby Ridge. However they were the ones who set up Randy Weaver w/ the sawed off shotgun transaction so they could blackmail him into becoming an informant.

And HRT did kill Vicky but I'm not sure who shot Randy's son, but I believe that was US Marshalls or FBI.

But Ruby Ridge is another topic of discussion like Waco that has been beaten to death by various sides of the fence.

In the end, it's good to know that the ATF has modified it's protocol since Waco and Ruby Ridge.

It's unfortunate that Waco happened the way it did. Politics have no play in these types situations and I agree that people who were running the show should have been canned for good. Unfortunatly those who were fired were quickly rehired a few months later.

[Dominique]

Good thought out responses. I agree that ATF was not involved mainly in the attack at Ruby Ridge. However they were the ones who set up Randy Weaver w/ the sawed off shotgun transaction so they could blackmail him into becoming an informant.

And HRT did kill Vicky but I'm not sure who shot Randy's son, but I believe that was US Marshalls or FBI.

Weaver was an idiot. He chose to sell a sawed-off shotgun to an ATF informant, that was his dumb ass decision to break the law, no one forced him to do it. Sammy Weaver was killed in a gunfight with Deputy US Marshals from the Marshal's Service Special Operations Group (SOG), who were monitoring the weaver home.

[California Joe]

Look Dom, if you keep injecting facts and logic into threads it's just going to start confusing people.

[Dominique]

Look Dom, if you keep injecting facts and logic into threads it's just going to start confusing people.

They were already confused, as it appears a good little number of them can't seem to be able to tell the difference between the ATF, the FBI, and the Marshals Service. Hell, at the time of the incidents in question ATF worked for Treasury, while the FBI and USMS worked for DoJ.

[Brasi]

They were already confused, as it appears a good little number of them can't seem to be able to tell the difference between the ATF, the FBI, and the Marshals Service. Hell, at the time of the incidents in question ATF worked for Treasury, while the FBI and USMS worked for DoJ.

Ahh, yes I forgot we are the misguided ones and you are the all knowing. The main reason the Oklahoma City bombing happened was because Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols wished to retaliate against the government for their handling of Ruby Ridge and Waco. That fact comes straight from federal investigators. Hence why the bombing occurred on the anniversery of Waco. :slap:

[California Joe]

Ahh, yes I forgot we are the misguided ones and you are the all knowing. The main reason the Oklahoma City bombing happened was because Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols wished to retaliate against the government for their handling of Ruby Ridge and Waco. That fact comes straight from federal investigators. Hence why the bombing occurred on the anniversery of Waco. :slap:

Dom didn't claim to be all knowing, he's just a bit more grounded in his investigative research than you are. And frankly, the motivations for a couple of Ed Gein wannabees that decide to kill their fellow citizens because they wrongly assume a Borg like US Government is of no interest to me. They're a couple of c*nts that should have been aborted. Oh wait, that's another thread.

I'm rather confused why wing nuts applaud Timothy McVeigh and then get itchy when a Government report suggests that disaffected returning combat vets may have a leg up on causing murder and mayhem due to their training and experience.

[LineDoggie]

Didnt Weaver basically walk away from any Jail time other than time served? IIRC, the Feds paid the daughers 3 Mil for killing their Mother as she stood there with an infant in her arms.

What I never understood about Waco was why the raid then?

The Local Sheriff said the Koresh nut job jogged everyday a few miles. Could have observed the route and snatch him up unarmed and alone.

One of those Nagging what if's that might have spared a lot of people grief.

[Creampuff]

@ Dominique, interesting to see how you've highlighted christian and then placed them on a par with Islamic fanatics wishing them all death or incarceration. Considering there are over eighty million Christians in the states many who serve in the war on terror i cant figure that one? IIRC Delta's former CO was a devout christian general William Boiken. I would imagine that the large number of Christians in the states are law abiding citizens, given their conviction so how you fail to make that clear in your post and lump them with Islamic fanatics is of concern. Imo would have been better if you had highlighted/ quotation marks around religous fanatics. There is a huge difference between christians and religous cults/fanatics.

[California Joe]

There is a Murphy's Law in law enforcement as well as combat. To assume that those ATF agents meant to be stuck in that untenable position, or do harm to children, or the FBI intended to burn that place down with children inside is absurd. David Koresh was a scumbag. Period. Apparently local law enforcement, with all their brilliant knowledge of his routine, didn't have a problem with him being a whackjob bible thumping kiddie fiddler as long as it was quiet out there. For f*ckssakes, after Jonestown, didn't anyone think that some Jim Morrison version of Jesus, stockpiling guns for the endtimes might be a reason for concern?

[California Joe]

@ Dominique, interesting to see how you've highlighted christian and then placed them on a par with Islamic fanatics wishing them all death or incarceration. Considering there are over eighty million Christians in the states many who serve in the war on terror i cant figure that one? IIRC Delta's former CO was a devout christian general William Boiken. I would imagine that the large number of Christians in the states are law abiding citizens, given their conviction so how you fail to make that clear in your post and lump them with Islamic fanatics is of concern. Imo would have been better if you had highlighted/ quotation marks around religous fanatics. There is a huge difference between christians and religous cults/fanatics.

So what exactly is your point? That there are no f*cking assholes using "Jesus" as a reason to kill people, or f*ck kids, or take old ladies pension money, or hole up in a compound and pretend they're the second coming?

[LineDoggie]

There is a Murphy's Law in law enforcement as well as combat. To assume that those ATF agents meant to be stuck in that untenable position, or do harm to children, or the FBI intended to burn that place down with children inside is absurd. David Koresh was a scumbag. Period. Apparently local law enforcement, with all their brilliant knowledge of his routine, didn't have a problem with him being a whackjob bible thumping kiddie fiddler as long as it was quiet out there. For f*ckssakes, after Jonestown, didn't anyone think that some Jim Morrison version of Jesus, stockpiling guns for the endtimes might be a reason for concern?


Jim Morrison?

[California Joe]

The Doors, The End........

[seraosha]

...Jim Morrison version of Jesus, stockpiling guns for the endtimes might be a reason for concern?

That's almost 2sheds worthy right there.

[California Joe]

High praise. He has a way....

[Jobu]

To assume that those ATF agents meant to be stuck in that untenable position, or do harm to children, or the FBI intended to burn that place down with children inside is absurd.

Drunk drivers don't mean to kill anybody either, but they do. They do because they put themselves in that position.

The ATF/FBI/(Ft. Hood soldiers?) didn't mean to slaughter so many people either but they were put in that position by their commanding officers.

There is blame. As crazy as Koresh was, and I'll never lose a wink of sleep over his death, most of the others did not deserve their fate. Dozens and dozens of innocent people were killed because of the actions of Koresh and the officers in charge of the siege. They share responsibility.

[California Joe]

Pretty sure the dead would have preferred not to be ordered to assault that complex.

Like Dom said, the blame lays in management, not at the feet of the agents that were killed.

And f*ck David Koresh, and the rest of the weak minded f*cktard adults that were in there believing his bullsh*t and letting their daughters get fingerbanged.

[Dominique]

Ahh, yes I forgot we are the misguided ones and you are the all knowing. The main reason the Oklahoma City bombing happened was because Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols wished to retaliate against the government for their handling of Ruby Ridge and Waco. That fact comes straight from federal investigators. Hence why the bombing occurred on the anniversery of Waco. :slap:

Just becuase they siad we wanted ot get back at the government for Waco, doesn't mean jack. McVeigh and his buddies were religious fanatics who claimed to be "at war" with the government. The simple fact remains, that McVeigh, and his buddies wanted to do it, period. If Waco and Ruby Ridge hadn't occured, they would have just found another excuse. It's no different than Osama saying the reason he ordered the 9/11 attacks was becuase he was "at war" with the US for the various "crimes" committed against Muslims. And you can see the type of "ligitimate" targets that both Mcveigh and AQ choose to hit.


Didnt Weaver basically walk away from any Jail time other than time served? IIRC, the Feds paid the daughers 3 Mil for killing their Mother as she stood there with an infant in her arms.

What I never understood about Waco was why the raid then?

The Local Sheriff said the Koresh nut job jogged everyday a few miles. Could have observed the route and snatch him up unarmed and alone.

One of those Nagging what if's that might have spared a lot of people grief.

Weaver walked away, and the surviving members of his family got paid nice fat checks. the primary reason the raid occurred was because ATF senior management didn't want to look bad in front of all the media, on hand. They had spent all this money and man hours invested in the raid, and thought they would have looked bad by calling it off.


@ Dominique, interesting to see how you've highlighted christian and then placed them on a par with Islamic fanatics wishing them all death or incarceration.

It's interesting to note that you didn't quite read the reply the way it was meant to be read. I placed the word Christian in quotes. It wasn't highlighted. I'm not comparing all Christians to religious fanatics, just so called "Christians" like McVeigh, members of various "Christian Identity" groups, abortion clinic bombers, etc.



IIRC Delta's former CO was a devout christian general William Boiken.

Your point? Last I checked, Jesus Christ was a Christian also, but what's that got to do with Waco?


There is a huge difference between christians and religous cults/fanatics.

I'm well aware of that.


Drunk drivers don't mean to kill anybody either, but they do. They do because they put themselves in that position.

The ATF/FBI/(Ft. Hood soldiers?) didn't mean to slaughter so many people either but they were put in that position by their commanding officers.

There is blame. As crazy as Koresh was, and I'll never lose a wink of sleep over his death, most of the others did not deserve their fate. Dozens and dozens of innocent people were killed because of the actions of Koresh and the officers in charge of the siege. They share responsibility.

Guess what people, unlike the movies, in real life **** happens. Things don't always go they way there supposed to go, and some time people die. You don't plan on innocent people getting killed, but it happens. That's the reality of it, and it's something many of you armchair quarterbacks need to understand. The vast majority of the time it's not the cops fault, as they're out their trying there best to do their job, and save lives, including the nut ball Koresh.

And who exactly did the "ATF/FBI" slaughter? Blaming the government for their deaths is asinine.They could have surrendered at any point up to their deaths, but they chose not to. Even after the initial gun battle, all his dumb ass had to do was walk out the front door, and he and his people would be alive today. They choose to stay in the compound, and to literally go out in a blaze.

[commanding]

Let's not forget:
http://i44.tinypic.com/qn2wrn.jpg

It was so long ago, I forget when she came aboard but believe it was just prior to the Waco standoff. Of course there was Ruby Ridge as previously mentioned and the Cuban kid:
http://i43.tinypic.com/mrcxu0.jpg

that was such a lovely era. Yes Koresh was an idiot, but in this country you have a right to be an idiot, and even keep a butt load of legal guns...some people say he had two hand grenades and a coupld of rifles modified to auto....i don't know. but the 50 cals were legal.
Randy Weaver was IMHO entrapped. Yeah it was illegal. Sometimes, the government, needs to use common sense. And I say that sincerely, and I love govt. agents. My bro in law is a special agent w/ FBI. But the Waco deal and the Ruby Ridge deal were handled wrong....IMHO.
that's all I have to say about that.

[Dominique]

Let's not forget: But the Waco deal and the Ruby Ridge deal were handled wrong....IMHO.

Yes, both Ruby Ridge and Waco could have been handled better. As a result all of the agencies involved mad changes to the way they handled crisis situations. For example, the FBI formed the CIRG; increased the size of the HRT; increased the amount of and type training their regional SWAT teams received, and gave the HRT control over the SWAT training program; The regional teams more closely work with the HRT now. FBI Hostage Negotiators now have a larger say so in what happens on the ground, and HRT Agent Operators attend negotiator training so they have better understanding of what the negotiators job is. And both the ATF, and USMS have made changes to their tactical programs, as well as DoJ making changes to the way the handle actual and potential large scale incidents and/or politically sensitive cases.

[CG51]

Let's not forget:
http://i44.tinypic.com/qn2wrn.jpg

It was so long ago, I forget when she came aboard but believe it was just prior to the Waco standoff. Of course there was Ruby Ridge as previously mentioned and the Cuban kid:
http://i43.tinypic.com/mrcxu0.jpg

that was such a lovely era. Yes Koresh was an idiot, but in this country you have a right to be an idiot, and even keep a butt load of legal guns...some people say he had two hand grenades and a coupld of rifles modified to auto....i don't know. but the 50 cals were legal.
Randy Weaver was IMHO entrapped. Yeah it was illegal. Sometimes, the government, needs to use common sense. And I say that sincerely, and I love govt. agents. My bro in law is a special agent w/ FBI. But the Waco deal and the Ruby Ridge deal were handled wrong....IMHO.
that's all I have to say about that.

Heh, heh, if that kid was named Elian Mumumbo from Haiti, they would have pushed that little fvcker back out to sea.

Has anyone answered why Koresh was not arrested outside his compound or why the ATF did not check his weapons for auto fire when he gave them the right to?

[rOjOdogg]

Boy everyone has short memories anyone ever heard of wonded Knee in the Dakotas back in 1973? The FBI and AFT had routine firefights every night with the indians and brought in Heavy Military equipment back then and it didnt work, you would think they would have learned over the years but they keep doing the same stupid things, Yes the US Goverment Agencies are way outo of control, thats what happens when you elect a new goverment every four years.

[LineDoggie]

Boy everyone has short memories anyone ever heard of wonded Knee in the Dakotas back in 1973? The FBI and AFT had routine firefights every night with the indians and brought in Heavy Military equipment back then and it didnt work, you would think they would have learned over the years but they keep doing the same stupid things, Yes the US Goverment Agencies are way outo of control, thats what happens when you elect a new goverment every four years. So whats your solution, Dictatorship or an American PRI?

M113's at Wounded Knee are Lighter Vehicles than the M728 CEV & M2IFV used at Waco

[Hollis]

US Goverment Agencies are way outo of control, thats what happens when you elect a new goverment every four years.


The US Government is always in transition every two years.

Senate 1/3 reelected every two years

Congress 100% reelected every two years

Governors, Not all are elected on the same election so there are Governor's election every two years.


Only election that is every 4 years, is the Presidency. President is only a part of the government, not all.

BTW, Civil services are not change because of a election.

[LaoSexMachine]

Boy everyone has short memories anyone ever heard of wonded Knee in the Dakotas back in 1973? The FBI and AFT had routine firefights every night with the indians and brought in Heavy Military equipment back then and it didnt work, you would think they would have learned over the years but they keep doing the same stupid things, Yes the US Goverment Agencies are way outo of control, thats w law enforcements job.hat happens when you elect a new goverment every four years.

Please, elaborate on. Your government seemed to do very well that the Army is doing law enforcements job.

[Rad Resistance]

Ruby Ridge was the true tragedy of the 90s, is he still in fedral lockup or not?

[Dominique]

Has anyone answered why Koresh was not arrested outside his compound

Because the ATF management shot down that plan.


or why the ATF did not check his weapons for auto fire when he gave them the right to?

The warrants they were serving had a number of charges listed on them. Not just illegally modifying weapons to full auto.

[Dominique]

Boy everyone has short memories anyone ever heard of wonded Knee in the Dakotas back in 1973? The FBI and AFT had routine firefights every night with the indians

Actually it was the Marshal's SOG and FBI involved, the ATF had very little to do with Wounded Knee.


and brought in Heavy Military equipment back then and it didnt work, you would think they would have learned over the years but they keep doing the same stupid things, Yes the US Goverment Agencies are way outo of control, thats what happens when you elect a new goverment every four years.

And would you care to explain how US government is "out of control", and while our government is far from perfect, I much prefer it to the systems in place south of our border.

[CG51]

Because the ATF management shot down that plan.

Sounds like bad management. Fatal one at that.

The warrants they were serving had a number of charges listed on them. Not just illegally modifying weapons to full auto.

Having a warrant is enough, right? Suspicion, look, they can pull you over for not using your blinkers, tint to dark, ect. A warrant that contains automatic weapons should be enough. Sounds like a hugh gaf.

[Dominique]

Having a warrant is enough, right? Suspicion, look, they can pull you over for not using your blinkers, tint to dark, ect. A warrant that contains automatic weapons should be enough. Sounds like a hugh gaf.

It was bad management. Have you actually read the first few pages of this thread? And yes having a federal warrant, issued by a judge or federal magistrate is enough to execute a raid. And any of the above mentioned items, with the exception of suspicion, will get you pulled by the local police or state police, as last I checked you were required to signal before making a lane change, and most states require that window tent fall within certain ranges.

[Brasi]

Just becuase they siad we wanted ot get back at the government for Waco, doesn't mean jack. McVeigh and his buddies were religious fanatics who claimed to be "at war" with the government. The simple fact remains, that McVeigh, and his buddies wanted to do it, period. If Waco and Ruby Ridge hadn't occured, they would have just found another excuse. It's no different than Osama saying the reason he ordered the 9/11 attacks was becuase he was "at war" with the US for the various "crimes" committed against Muslims. And you can see the type of "ligitimate" targets that both Mcveigh and AQ choose to hit.




You're kidding right? You're pulling stuff out of your arse when you have nothing to back it up with. The fact of the matter is you have no knowledge that if not Waco and Ruby Ridge, then McVeigh would have found something else to justify going terrorist on us.

Wiki, A&E channel, Discovery Channel, ABC, NBC, and finally CBS all did exhaustive investigative documentaries on the Oklahoma City bombing, not to mention federal government agencies, and they all came to the conclusion Waco and Ruby Ridge were what tripped McVeigh into acting.

[Dominique]

You're kidding right? You're pulling stuff out of your arse when you have nothing to back it up with. The fact of the matter is you have no knowledge that if not Waco and Ruby Ridge, then McVeigh would have found something else to justify going terrorist on us.

Wiki, A&E channel, Discovery Channel, ABC, NBC, and finally CBS all did exhaustive investigative documentaries on the Oklahoma City bombing, not to mention federal government agencies, and they all came to the conclusion Waco and Ruby Ridge were what tripped McVeigh into acting.

Excuse me? Pulling stuff out of my ass? He was a f*cking nut, who dreamed of being a "hero", but he couldn't cut the mustard in the military. How many of you know he tried out for SF, and applied to the USMS? Instead he gravitated to the militia movement, Christian Identity, white supremacist groups, where he could live out his unfulfilled fantasies of greatness. McVeigh, by the time of Ruby Ridge, and Waco, he and his buddies were itching for a fight with with the government, This is one of the many morons who religiously read books like the Turner Diaries, and dreamed of the day when he and others of his ilk would be able to strike against "ZOG". If neither of them would have happened, something else would have triggered him. If you want to believe other wise, feel free to do so, that's your choice, but don't tell me I'm just pulling sh*t out my ass when you quote wiki for a source.

[Creampuff]

So what exactly is your point? That there are no f*cking assholes using "Jesus" as a reason to kill people, or f*ck kids, or take old ladies pension money, or hole up in a compound and pretend they're the second coming?

No. That there is a difference between those who use Christianity as a facade and those who live the faith, Poles apart, this been a military oriented site i picked LT general William Boiken as a sterling example of Christianity in answer to you and and Dominique.

[Dominique]

No. That there is a difference between those who use Christianity as a facade and those who live the faith, Poles apart, this been a military oriented site i picked LT general William Boiken as a sterling example of Christianity in answer to you and and Dominique.

My point was that many people, to include Christians, use religion to excuse their actions, not to denigrate the Christian faith.

[Creampuff]

My point was that many people, to include Christians, use religion to excuse their actions, not to denigrate the Christian faith.

Sweet! thanks for clarifying:)

[Brasi]

Excuse me? Pulling stuff out of my ass? He was a f*cking nut, who dreamed of being a "hero", but he couldn't cut the mustard in the military. How many of you know he tried out for SF, and applied to the USMS? Instead he gravitated to the militia movement, Christian Identity, white supremacist groups, where he could live out his unfulfilled fantasies of greatness. McVeigh, by the time of Ruby Ridge, and Waco, he and his buddies were itching for a fight with with the government, This is one of the many morons who religiously read books like the Turner Diaries, and dreamed of the day when he and others of his ilk would be able to strike against "ZOG". If neither of them would have happened, something else would have triggered him. If you want to believe other wise, feel free to do so, that's your choice, but don't tell me I'm just pulling sh*t out my ass when you quote wiki for a source.

How couldn't he cut the mustard in the military? He was awarded the bronze star and honorable discharged. So what if he didn't make it through SF training, what does that even have to do with anything? SF training weeds out up to 80-90% of the applicants, so it wouldn't be suprising if he dropped out.

[thejoker]

So whats your solution, Dictatorship or an American PRI?

M113's at Wounded Knee are Lighter Vehicles than the M728 CEV & M2IFV used at Waco

the funny thing about this discussion is the fact that It was democrats in charge back then, what does the future look like with something so similar today, also just because he is in TJ it does not mean that he would want your suggestion or what you imply as mexico being a dictatorship , politics are the same anywhere , they want what they want at any cost. tell me what is the difference in between the current "PAN" and the "RNC". in my own view they're the same, because they serve the same interest of their constituents.
you seem to think that mexicans like dictatorships like the rest of south america, are we supposed to think that americans are just imperialist?. I sure don't think so!, be nice and be a good linedoggie with your next door neighbors .

[LineDoggie]

the funny thing about this discussion is the fact that It was democrats in charge back then, what does the future look like with something so similar today, also just because he is in TJ it does not mean that he would want your suggestion or what you imply as mexico being a dictatorship , politics are the same anywhere , they want what they want at any cost. tell me what is the difference in between the current "PAN" and the "RNC". in my own view they're the same, because they serve the same interest of their constituents.
you seem to think that mexicans like dictatorships like the rest of south america, are we supposed to think that americans are just imperialist?. I sure don't think so!, be nice and be a good linedoggie with your next door neighbors .


1973 the Republicans were in offices during Wounded Knee. Richard M. Nixon was President.

1993 WACO seige was during Clintons administration so how you figured it was democrats for both boggles the mind.

As to Mexico, for 70 years the same party was in power, no?

Somehow I doubt the electorate voted that every election. Smells like totalitarianism to me.

[Dominique]

How couldn't he cut the mustard in the military? He was awarded the bronze star and honorable discharged. So what if he didn't make it through SF training, what does that even have to do with anything? SF training weeds out up to 80-90% of the applicants, so it wouldn't be suprising if he dropped out.

So what if he was awarded a Bronze Star, the Army was handing out awrds like candy, after Desert Storm. And even if he did deserve it, that doesn excuse his actions at OKC. McVeigh was was a walking time-bomb. He was a confused paranoid young man, who couldn't hold down a steady job and had problems with women (as in he never, ever, had a girlfriend). When school didn't work out the way he wanted to, he quit. Then while he was in the Army, he started having "issues" with the government, and when he figured out he wasn't going to make the cut for SF (he asked to drop after the first day of SFAS), he quit, and left the Army; when he couldn't make the cut to join the Marshal's Service, and got pissed at the government about that too. You seeing a pattern? And then to cap it off, this asshole renounced his citizenship. F*ck him, and all his co-conspirators, they can all rot in hell. You on the other hand, seem to have a soft spot for him, and want to blame the government for his actions. If I'm mistaken, prove me wrong. If not, go back to waiting for the bad ole government boggy men, flying in the black UN helicopters, to come take away your guns, and put you in their concentration camps.

[LineDoggie]

Lets not kid each other, they werent quite handing out Bronze Star Medals to Buck Sergeants like candy,then or now. for a Low ranked NCO to be awarded that is usually a sign of some achievement.

But Timmy Boloed out of everything else

[Dominique]

Lets not kid each other, they werent quite handing out Bronze Star Medals to Buck Sergeants like candy,then or now. for a Low ranked NCO to be awarded that is usually a sign of some achievement.

But Timmy Boloed out of everything else

We actually had an LT receive a Bronze Star for basically sitting in an office and doing up Power Points. But as I said, while he may have earned his Bronze Star (I wasn't there, so I don't know), I could care less about what he did, in 91. Four years later he murdered 168 innocent people. He was still a hate mongering terrorist, who deserved to die. And for all of you crying about how the government did this, that and the other, WTF does that have to do with McVeigh, and other nut jobs like him (the Order, CSA, etc.) randomly killing, or planning to kill innocent people?

[LineDoggie]

We actually had an LT receive a Bronze Star for basically sitting in an office and doing up Power Points. But as I said, while he may have earned his Bronze Star (I wasn't there, so I don't know), I could care less about what he did, in 91. Four years later he murdered 168 innocent people. He was still a hate mongering terrorist, who deserved to die. And for all of you crying about how the government did this, that and the other, WTF does that have to do with McVeigh, and other nut jobs like him (the Order, CSA, etc.) randomly killing, or planning to kill innocent people?

First of all, I aint crying over Timmy McVeigh, so get your facts straight. I thought he should'a been electrocuted on live TV. Nor am I crying over Waco, or Ruby Ridge. I pointed out some facts as I know them.

My Point was he was apparently good enough to be awarded a Bronze Star Medal. Again not something you see many E-5 Sgt's with. I knew 1 Buck Sergeant with it, out of 700 men in my unit. I'm well aware of the Policy of everyone over E-7 getting a BSM at end of tour, to include Officers.

[Dominique]

First of all, I aint crying over Timmy McVeigh, so get your facts straight. I thought he should'a been electrocuted on live TV. Nor am I crying over Waco, or Ruby Ridge. I pointed out some facts as I know them.

LD, I'm trying to call you out, nor am I saying your one of the guys getting a hard on over McVeigh, so if I came off that way, my apologies.


My Point was he was apparently good enough to be awarded a Bronze Star Medal. Again not something you see many E-5 Sgt's with. I knew 1 Buck Sergeant with it, out of 700 men in my unit. I'm well aware of the Policy of everyone over E-7 getting a BSM at end of tour, to include Officers.

His actions, during the Gulf War, in no way excuse his actions later (and my statements aren't directed at you, but all the apologists out there who like to point out that he was awarded the Bronze Star).