Texas Senate OKs guns on college campus bill today... [Archive]

RxOnco

05-20-2009, 05:21 PM

I haven't been in college for awhile, but I don't remember any student not acting like an ass at some point. Cops are rather highly trained in this country, yet I still see them taking guns to bars, getting drunk and doing something stupid. The US military tends to train their people pretty well, yet things seem to happen. "Regrettable instances" I think they're called.

Looks to me like you're equating the three. I must be too obtuse though.

If they're ok to carry their weapon everywhere else, then why not on campus where they're spending a great deal of time?

seraosha

05-20-2009, 05:21 PM

How obtuse are you? I'll make it simple. Cops, yes, Military, yes. Some moron getting a communications degree paid for by his parents? No.

For someone with the lablel "smartypants" you certainly aren't living up to it on this thread. Keep trying though, so far the results have been amusing if not informative.

clean

05-20-2009, 05:24 PM

There's always students who have guns. And if they are over 18, then there's no problem with them having a rifle. Over 21, bring on the handguns. But carrying them on campus, and into classrooms is a whole different beast.

I barricaded myself in my apartment, armed during the 92 riots. And when they were over, the weapons went back to the closet. Where they should be.

seraosha

05-20-2009, 05:26 PM

NuckmasterJ

05-20-2009, 06:21 PM

Can any of you texans some how sponsor me for a green card? I'll bring you real Canadian Maple Syrup in trade.

California Joe

05-20-2009, 06:55 PM

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6432279.html

"AUSTIN — A bill to allow college students and employees to carry their concealed handguns on campus won final passage today on a 19-12 vote in the Senate..."

I do love this state.p-)

"Texas has yet to learn submission to any oppression, come from what source it may."
--Sam Houston

Jesus, this again?

WTF are you so excited about? Planning on hanging out at the local community college impressing the coeds with your heat packing abilities?

Looks like an opportunity for some well meaning dumbass to make gun owners look bad again to me. Only this time it'll be a legally sanctioned dumbass.

And for f*ckssakes drop the "Yehaaaaw, some hard c*nts died in the Alamo a long time ago so I'm imbued by historical osmosis with some special Texan powers that makes me all independent and cowboylike..."

P.S. Sam Houston was from Virginia.

Geezah

05-20-2009, 06:59 PM

Good, one less soft target for the nutters of the World to attack...........

Aerosoul

05-20-2009, 07:05 PM

And for f*ckssakes drop the "Yehaaaaw, some hard c*nts died in the Alamo a long time ago so I'm imbued by historical osmosis with some special Texan powers that makes me all independent and cowboylike..."
Been trying to find a way to say that...nice post.

Fargin

05-20-2009, 07:12 PM

Was last time Texas saw a school shooting in 1966?

Fintin

05-20-2009, 07:12 PM

Utah already allows this. I don't know if there have been any issues because of carrying on campus. Then again, every campus is dry but one in Utah.

SulpitusDesiderius

05-20-2009, 07:34 PM

Let's all hope for another school shooting so we can prove those f*ckers wrong!
This is totally gonna work!

I pray to God your joking. Never ever hope for a shooting school or otherwise.

God forbid this happening again, but if the first responders are actually CCL students I hope they conduct themselves very professionally and not riddle the actor with lead. All eyes are on The Great State.

Aerosoul

05-20-2009, 07:44 PM

I was being sarcastic.
However click, before editing his post to say "nevermind", quoted my post and said that he agrees.
It doesn't surprise me that people feel that way, which is why I posted it sarcastically.

seraosha

05-20-2009, 09:06 PM

I'd like to go ahead and admit that since moving to Texas my ***** actually grew half an inch and a full inch in girth...my ********s hang lower as a balance for my now broadened center of gravity.
My manly demeanor has only improved with age, and I owe it to the Great State of Texas and my Cajun wife.

Fact.

As to Texas coeds with guns, yes please.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ZM9443fhSyo/SGUxBRAIVmI/AAAAAAAAAak/IbN_6S78lpQ/s400/jessicaalba1.jpg

Counting down to the gun control harpy duo...
3
2
1
...

California Joe

05-20-2009, 09:12 PM

Congrats on the whole geographical Enzyte thing.

Does your wife have the sexy Cajun accent?

Does she have a sister? That looks like Jessica Alba?

To quote John Fogerty: "Wish I was back on the bayou, rollin' with some Cajun Queen"

Major Robert Rogers and his Rangers once trekked through my backyard. Therefore I may as well be OMFGDelta.

Fact.

Sight alignment, trigger control.

commanding

05-20-2009, 09:19 PM

Was last time Texas saw a school shooting in 1966?

jeez, I think so. I remember that one too. I had just finished my first year in architecture school and Charles Whitman was an archy student at the University of Texas (I was in Lubbock at Tech).....but the mental and physical strain of architecture school, weighed heavily on my mind...and I wondered at the time if the curriculae had got to him. Turned out he had a brain tumor.

commanding

05-20-2009, 09:21 PM

P.S. Sam Houston was from Virginia.

Houston may have been born in VA, but he was a Texan. Ditto on the rest of the men who bought our land with their blood.

Panchito12

05-20-2009, 09:33 PM

Dear Texas college students (who qualify for the permit)

When it comes to purchasing your choice of concealed firepower to take to your classes, I cannot stop myself from giving you my personal recommendation for one of my babies:

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/8448/84704032esmmsjohxd92.th.jpg (http://img38.imageshack.us/my.php?image=84704032esmmsjohxd92.jpg)

Springfield SubCompact .40

Thank you for your support.

California Joe

05-20-2009, 09:33 PM

Hey, just sayin'. Nice of you to claim him and the rest of them from somewhere else as your own.

Then claim that Texas has some genetic right to act the way some of the posters here do.

Strange how the hard bastards that actually founded this country on the East Coast don't get the same amount of love from the newbs in the rest of the country.

shocker1

05-20-2009, 09:44 PM

Strange how the hard bastards that actually founded this country on the East Coast don't get the same amount of love from the newbs in the rest of the country.
Damn yeller bellied Yankees up yonder comin down herr tellin us how we oughta be livin.

California Joe

05-20-2009, 09:49 PM

Hey, I said East Coast. 13 colonies....:) You know, fighting the best army in the world, not some ****head with a Napoleon complex...:)

BlackFlag

05-20-2009, 09:53 PM

Hey, I said East Coast. 13 colonies....:) You know, fighting the best army in the world, not some ****head with a Napoleon complex...:)

Francis Marion, FTW.

shocker1

05-20-2009, 10:02 PM

Hey, I said East Coast. 13 colonies....:) You know, fighting the best army in the world, not some ****head with a Napoleon complex...:)
HAHA, Yep, we need to stop the muthas cold at the Mississip.

Seriously though, this bill could work against gun rights. Any violence after passage will be used as a weapon by anti-gun retards. Thereby offering knee jerk solutions, such as increased metal detectors, tighter gun restrictions, "test case" against liberal gun laws and increased police state like actions. Can't say I am against the bill but such decisions should be left to the school. Some could function just fine some will be trouble.

BlackFlag

05-20-2009, 10:14 PM

HAHA, Yep, we need to stop the muthas cold at the Mississip.

Seriously though, this bill could work against gun rights. Any violence after passage will be used as a weapon by anti-gun retards. Thereby offering knee jerk solutions, such as increased metal detectors, tighter gun restrictions, "test case" against liberal gun laws and increased police state like actions. Can't say I am against the bill but such decisions should be left to the school. Some could function just fine some will be trouble.

It's a catch-22, that's for sure. In one hand, a student carrying could stop an active shooter, and save lives. In the other, that same student could be presumed the active shooter by first responders.

Hopefully, this will work out for the best, because if it doesn't, the blowback will really screw things up for gun-rights advocates.

JUNKHO

05-20-2009, 10:18 PM

Instead of "All hat and no cattle" are we going to start hearing like

"All caliber and no GPA" or some such?

Captain China

05-21-2009, 02:57 AM

I might be a little dumb, but I don't understand why you american think let every student carry weapon could help to avoid next campus shooting?

Aerosoul

05-21-2009, 03:00 AM

I might be a little dumb, but I don't understand why you american think let every student carry weapon could help to avoid next campus shooting?
Rest assured plenty of Americans don't think so. Perhaps even a majority. Just not in Texas.

oldsoak

05-21-2009, 03:13 AM

If some of the "students" I've met are anything to go by, mature gun owners should get ready for some bad press. I wouldnt trust most students with a toilet brush in a locked cubicle, nevermind a firearm. Some of the high jinks they get up to in the name of "fun" are INSANE - let them carry a firearm as well ?! :roll: IMHO, I'm not sure this is going to project the idea that the vast majority of gun owners are sane, mature and law abiding citizens. If one of those young bucks gets p*ssed and starts waving a piece around, it could well degenerate into shootout at the OK Corall. That or he'll get shot by another student who thinks a campus massacre is about to take place.
I'm quite sure there are those who will prove me wrong, and I'm pleased to be proved wrong - but I'm not sure about this at all.

Slouch

05-21-2009, 03:18 AM

I'm with oldsoak on this one. The idea is pretty alarming, and as others have already pointed out it would cause more problems than they would solve.

Still, depending on the campus, it might not change things at all. The tree-hugging hippy liberal anti-establishment crusaders wouldn't be able to afford a gun, let alone want one.

Bulletproof

05-21-2009, 03:32 AM

It's a double-edged sword.

Will Clark

05-21-2009, 03:55 AM

Was last time Texas saw a school shooting in 1966?

No, but it might have been the last time anyone was killed. Oddly enough at UT the students were shooting at Whitman along side police.

To whoever it concerns:
The 21+ crowd who would carry in schools are the same 21+ crowd who already carry and have proven themselves much more law abiding than the rest of the population who aren't licensed. To say you're scared they might shoot up the school means that you're ignoring their immaculate record and assume that something spur of the moment will set them off in class. This same argument was used when concealed carry was first implemented, the blood baths never materialized over road rage, arguments at stores, etc. Specific to this CC on campus, we haven't seen a single issue at any school where it has been legal to carry since it has been implemented. Yes it opens the pro-gun movement to bad press if something happens and it doesn't work out perfect, but put it in perspective; it's an extremely slight addition for an extremely small portion of an already small population that doesn't get in trouble.

WarriorMonk

05-21-2009, 06:49 AM

why am I not surprised this thread reached critical mass so quickly...

RxOnco

05-21-2009, 08:46 AM

Jesus, this again?

...Blah...Blah...Blah...

P.S. Sam Houston was from Virginia.

Yes, I know he wasn't "from Texas." Nobody but the Indians were at the time. He's still considered to be one of the founding fathers. One of the largest cities in the nation is named after the man.

As for your Texas envy...we can't all live in Texas. By looking at your name, I make the assumption that you live in California. Hey, I'd be bitter too.p-)

Kadrun

05-21-2009, 11:09 AM

Arm race! woot, another way of boosting our economy
Make sure students to purchase US products

California Joe

05-21-2009, 12:42 PM

Yes, I know he wasn't "from Texas." Nobody but the Indians were at the time. He's still considered to be one of the founding fathers. One of the largest cities in the nation is named after the man.

As for your Texas envy...we can't all live in Texas. By looking at your name, I make the assumption that you live in California. Hey, I'd be bitter too.p-)

I'm slightly dissapointed in the level of response.

Gee, I didn't know they named a city after him. That's so cool. Samville?

My name comes from a Civil War Sharpshooter not a location.

Geezah

05-21-2009, 01:05 PM

To whoever it concerns:
The 21+ crowd who would carry in schools are the same 21+ crowd who already carry and have proven themselves much more law abiding than the rest of the population who aren't licensed. To say you're scared they might shoot up the school means that you're ignoring their immaculate record and assume that something spur of the moment will set them off in class. This same argument was used when concealed carry was first implemented, the blood baths never materialized over road rage, arguments at stores, etc. Specific to this CC on campus, we haven't seen a single issue at any school where it has been legal to carry since it has been implemented. Yes it opens the pro-gun movement to bad press if something happens and it doesn't work out perfect, but put it in perspective; it's an extremely slight addition for an extremely small portion of an already small population that doesn't get in trouble.

You have to remember that the 21yr old college community to some here can't be trusted with anything let alone a firearm.

gaz

05-21-2009, 01:24 PM

My name comes from a Civil War Sharpshooter not a location.

Your real name's not Joe!?!

RxOnco

05-21-2009, 01:30 PM

I'm slightly dissapointed in the level of response...

Sorry to disappoint you. We can't all have responses like this:

...WTF are you so excited about? Planning on hanging out at the local community college impressing the coeds with your heat packing abilities?...P.S. Sam Houston was from Virginia.

Pete031

05-21-2009, 01:45 PM

Casue the level of maturity at college is at such a point, where all pers packing weapons are going to be respoinsible....

WTF happened???

He called me a liar, it was a fair shooten!

Well ok then.

RxOnco

05-21-2009, 01:54 PM

Are you guys not reading the article? This will only apply to those who are C.C. permit holders. You guys act like this will make college campuses look like the streets of Tombstone. These same "irresponsible kids" already are able to obtain these permits. I don't recall seeing any stories of wild off-campus frat parties gone bad.

Geezah

05-21-2009, 01:55 PM

Casue the level of maturity at college is at such a point, where all pers packing weapons are going to be respoinsible....

WTF happened???

He called me a liar, it was a fair shooten!

Well ok then.

Because this happens doesn't it, or is it projection on your part????

CG51

05-21-2009, 02:02 PM

Sooners don't play UT in Austin....

Case solved.

Aerosoul

05-21-2009, 02:38 PM

ColinP

05-21-2009, 02:40 PM

I haven't been in college for awhile, but I don't remember any student not acting like an ass at some point. Cops are rather highly trained in this country, yet I still see them taking guns to bars, getting drunk and doing something stupid. The US military tends to train their people pretty well, yet things seem to happen. "Regrettable instances" I think they're called.

Firearm offence indictment rates for US CCW permit holders is around 1% of the total. The risk is small. The FBI estimates about 2 million crimes are thwarted each year by armed citizens, some poll results put that number as high as 4 million crimes stopped a year. Not having an armed response has proven fatal, time and time again. CCW has already shown to deter crimes.

Soldat_Américain

05-21-2009, 03:06 PM

As for your Texas envy...we can't all live in Texas. By looking at your name, I make the assumption that you live in California. Hey, I'd be bitter too.p-)
I'm a take a guess here:

Major Robert Rogers and his Rangers once trekked through my backyard.
Upstate New York...judging from my knowlege of Rogers...too bad he died in debt.

They kill any Indian and then claim they are Apache. I don't see how any man can sink so low. Must be Texans... the lowest form of white man there is. And the great Al Sieber once said...so now you understand I have no envy of Texas.

Pete031

05-21-2009, 03:31 PM

Because this happens doesn't it, or is it projection on your part????

fvck man, Even in the Military, you are not allowed to have your ammo in the shacks. You people think that just because they have a course it makes it a good idea to have guns in Univeristy Dorms?

And Geezah, You come from a place that has some of the most strict weapons laws. Oh yeah, thats right you live in Texas now.

Geezah

05-21-2009, 03:51 PM

And Geezah, You come from a place that has some of the most strict weapons laws. Oh yeah, thats right you live in Texas now.

What Ohio?

While the UK is a prime example of how not to do things, I moved here 13yrs ago!

seraosha

05-21-2009, 03:52 PM

Aerosoul

05-21-2009, 03:59 PM

Laaaame argument with a side of weaksauce.

Like, totally.
Your retorts like this post and "cool story bro" aren't exactly winning anyone over, either.

ColinP

05-21-2009, 04:29 PM

fvck man, Even in the Military, you are not allowed to have your ammo in the shacks. You people think that just because they have a course it makes it a good idea to have guns in Univeristy Dorms?

And Geezah, You come from a place that has some of the most strict weapons laws. Oh yeah, thats right you live in Texas now.

I can shoot pistol, despite my military training. The miltary way is not always the right way, also when the military is in the frontlines or at risk, they are loaded, just like cops. As I previously mention the Stats do not support the fear that the "streets will run with blood"

clean

05-21-2009, 04:58 PM

My dad was a cop for a long time, and he had a friend who came up through the academy with him. This guy had done 2 combat tours in Vietnam with the Marines. He was doing paperwork with his partner, a guy named Napolean, at a substation. 3 guys walked in and opened fire. Napolean was killed instantly. My dad's friend dove under the desk as a few rounds tore into it. He pulled his weapon, but his hands were shaking and he dropped it. By the time he'd picked it up again, the suspects took off. He was pretty highly trained, yet freaked. What is a kid in class gonna do? Granted, it's a texas kid. Maybe they're tougher down there.

RxOnco

05-21-2009, 05:05 PM

No offense to your dad's friend...but maybe he was just a pu$$y. I don't know. Maybe 9 out of 10 of us would pu$$ out in this situation. All but one might dive for the nearest cover. It doesn't matter. If you don't give one the chance, you'll never know. But there might be one guy that doesn't. He/she might be the one that saves a life.

wotsnext

05-21-2009, 05:07 PM

What Ohio?

While the UK is a prime example of how not to do things, I moved here 13yrs ago!
Sound like you had narrow escape sunshine :)

clean

05-21-2009, 05:09 PM

He/she might be the one that saves a life.

Or he/she might be the one who blindly starts spraying rounds hitting everyone but the bad guy.

BTW, nice going calling a cop under fire a pussy. Big ups to you.

ex Strathcona

05-21-2009, 05:09 PM

Your retorts like this post and "cool story bro" aren't exactly winning anyone over, either.

yeah "cool story bro" is getting old fast

seraosha

05-21-2009, 05:14 PM

Your retorts like this post and "cool story bro" aren't exactly winning anyone over, either.

Groovy comeback, can't wait to hear a logical well thought out response from you as well. But I'm not holding my breath. We've seen your country's version of gun control and where it leads; no thanks.

RxOnco

05-21-2009, 05:15 PM

Or he/she might be the one who blindly starts spraying rounds hitting everyone but the bad guy.

BTW, nice going calling a cop under fire a pussy. Big ups to you.

Shouldn't matter whether he's a cop or not. I clearly said we might all be, given that particular situation.

I'll tell you what...say you're in school and you hear gunshots coming down the hall and slowly getting closer to your room.

Now...would you rather be in my classroom where there's 3 guys with CCL's who are armed? Or, would you rather be in the classroom across the hall where nobody has a weapon?

Aerosoul

05-21-2009, 05:23 PM

Groovy comeback, can't wait to hear a logical well thought out response from you as well. But I'm not holding my breath. We've seen your country's version of gun control and where it leads; no thanks.

Maybe I haven't stated it clearly enough.
I'm against it because I think the chance of a CCW doing any good at a school shooting is pretty much nil, especially compared to the risks of people carrying it and storing it on campus. There are a lot of universities in Texas, I'm sure they all have their own police force and not just security. University police are close enough to the school buildings that I believe they should be the ones left to do their job, not some glory-seeking 22 year old.

Yes, I do believe most 22 year olds with CCWs probably HOPE for a situation. Any 22 year old that wants to carry around a gun all day and have to deal with it at COLLEGE is a fool IMO.

There is still the issue of what happens if a shooting occurs, and a CCW happens to be there, then seconds later police show up. Multiple shooters, who's the good guy and who's the bad guy?

And what is "my country?"

clean

05-21-2009, 05:27 PM

Now...would you rather be in my classroom where there's 3 guys with CCL's who are armed? Or, would you rather be in the classroom across the hall where nobody has a weapon?

I can't say this for sure, but probably, I'm the only one on this board who, as a college student, was shot at twice. And both instances, returning fire would've been a very bad idea.

RxOnco

05-21-2009, 05:27 PM

clean

05-21-2009, 05:34 PM

I understand what you're saying.

I went to the University of Houston for both undergrad and Pharmacy School. My school isn't exactly located in the best part of Houston...one of the worst in fact. I would have loved the opportunity to carry.

USC was the same way late 80s early 90s. Granted, we were in the middle of a gang war and riots. Never peaceful enough for a nutjob to wander the halls aiming at students.

Soldat_Américain

05-21-2009, 05:39 PM

USC was the same way late 80s early 90s. Granted, we were in the middle of a gang war and riots. Never peaceful enough for a nutjob to wander the halls aiming at students.
Dude USC's like that now...

Pete031

05-21-2009, 05:52 PM

Laaaame argument with a side of weaksauce.

Like, totally.

Wow, great contribution to the thread. 110 percent right there.

Pete031

05-21-2009, 06:25 PM

I can shoot pistol, despite my military training. The miltary way is not always the right way, also when the military is in the frontlines or at risk, they are loaded, just like cops. As I previously mention the Stats do not support the fear that the "streets will run with blood"

I'm not talking about the military, I used it as an example... What I mean is immature college kids who think they know how to use a pistol properly just because they have a weekend course, Carrying loaded weapons around campus.

I wonder what the local LEO's think about this. Arming everyone is not always the answer.
Don't get me wrong, I have guns. And I think people should be able to have guns.
But not at school. To think that a concealed carry permit all of a sudden makes someone a responsible gun owner is dumb.

Now if the Police are clearing a campus, and they see 200 people with weapons out, and we all know that an unkown is treated as a threat until, they are a known, how is that LEO going to determine friend from foe?

Everyone can debate this forever, but in my opinion, arming students isin't the way to deal with the possibility of campus shootings. Thats why we send people to academies.

shocker1

05-21-2009, 07:01 PM

We've seen your country's version of gun control and where it leads; no thanks.
Fail

And what is "my country?"

HAHAHA, what up brah?

Will Clark

05-21-2009, 08:10 PM

Or he/she might be the one who blindly starts spraying rounds hitting everyone but the bad guy.

There are tens of thousands of current/former college students and personnel in Texas that are licensed, point out any incident since the inception back in the 90's where they defended themselves and killed an innocent person. It could happen, but as I look through the compiled department of public safety statistics, it hasn't so far.

We all knnoowwwww that. For some of us it is still a bad idea. Risks vs benefits.

Perceived risks, and perceived benefits.

redhawk_six

05-21-2009, 08:38 PM

And what is "my country?"

I'd like to know that too.

If he's reffering to Pete (Canada), well, it's easier to get a gun in Canada then it is in some parts of the states. As a Canadian, all I need to buy a semi-auto AR-15 is a restricted class PAL, and of course the money to pay for it. To get a PAL, I have to pass their test, have no violent crimes on my record, have good references, and being a member of a club helps a lot too. How's that compare to somewhere like california? Really, our gun laws aren't that bad up here, with the exception of mag limits and certain guns being banned because they 'look scary'.

Will Clark

05-21-2009, 08:39 PM

Maybe I haven't stated it clearly enough.
I'm against it because I think the chance of a CCW doing any good at a school shooting is pretty much nil, especially compared to the risks of people carrying it and storing it on campus. There are a lot of universities in Texas, I'm sure they all have their own police force and not just security. University police are close enough to the school buildings that I believe they should be the ones left to do their job, not some glory-seeking 22 year old.

Yes, I do believe most 22 year olds with CCWs probably HOPE for a situation. Any 22 year old that wants to carry around a gun all day and have to deal with it at COLLEGE is a fool IMO.

There is still the issue of what happens if a shooting occurs, and a CCW happens to be there, then seconds later police show up. Multiple shooters, who's the good guy and who's the bad guy?

School shootings are like, 1% of this argument. Everyone is much more concerned with their safety around campus, especially late at night.

If you have absolutely no familiarity with the habits of Texas University police forces, why are you telling us that they'll be close enough to handle whatever happens? My campus was 5,600 acres, that 22 year old will likely be on their own for at least the very least a few minutes if someone did start shooting, and probably for a hell of a lot longer if something happened as they were walking to their car at night.

Did you hope something happened at school? I was 22 at one point and was licensed to carry, if it would have been legal to carry in school buildings I would have. I certainly wasn't looking for trouble. Why do you think I'm a fool, what factors did you cobble together to figure that any 22 year old that doesn't mind carrying a firearm at COLLEGE is a fool?

The police will probably do something rational, like order you to drop the gun. They have to deal with this problem in 99.999% of public places, this isn't a problem they've never considered.

ex Strathcona

05-21-2009, 09:01 PM

I'd like to know that too.

If he's reffering to Pete (Canada), well, it's easier to get a gun in Canada then it is in some parts of the states. As a Canadian, all I need to buy a semi-auto AR-15 is a restricted class PAL, and of course the money to pay for it. To get a PAL, I have to pass their test, have no violent crimes on my record, have good references, and being a member of a club helps a lot too. How's that compare to somewhere like california? Really, our gun laws aren't that bad up here, with the exception of mag limits and certain guns being banned because they 'look scary'.

x2 i own enough fire arms to equip a full section and i live in the heart of left leaning Ontario :p
Jack Laton would be shocked

redhawk_six

05-21-2009, 09:23 PM

x2 i own enough fire arms to equip a full section and i live in the heart of left leaning Ontario :p
Jack Laton would be shocked

I just wish FN's weren't prohibs. Of all the banned guns, thats really the only one I wish wasn't.

clean

05-21-2009, 09:27 PM

Arming college kids in texas equals what? Probably less texans. As far as recruiting students from across the country, students who pay full tuition and might be labeled as Yankee no gooders? We'll, at least you don't have to worry about those guys.

ex Strathcona

05-21-2009, 09:31 PM

I just wish FN's weren't prohibs. Of all the banned guns, thats really the only one I wish wasn't.

i have a heavy barrel w/ bi pod and 16x scope :)
never been fired and it's grandfathered to me :( so its like a big boat anchor around my neck till i die.

Violet Fashion by Mindy

05-21-2009, 09:34 PM

Hey, I said East Coast. 13 colonies....:) You know, fighting the best army in the world, not some ****head with a Napoleon complex...:)

Hey a bunch of part timers, colonial troops does not equal fighting the best army in the world. Yeah sure they may have been part of the best army in the world but they were after all only colonial troops so they were not exactly the best army in the world.

You know I give credit where credit is due. Rebelling against a nation that is already at war trying to stop aggressive nations from ruling the free world. Yep that takes some hard ****s.

Haha to gain freedom from a constitutional monarchy with a democratic parliament you need help from an absolute monarch IE tyrant, dictator)

Irony

Have a nice day. I'll grab my hatp-)

Geezah

05-21-2009, 09:50 PM

I wonder what the local LEO's think about this. Arming everyone is not always the answer.
Don't get me wrong, I have guns.
And I think people should be able to have guns.

This doesn't compute, no-one is suggesting arming everyone, they are talking about giving them a choice!

Everyone can debate this forever, but in my opinion, arming students isin't the way to deal with the possibility of campus shootings.

We know that not arming them doesn't work, so why not try it the other way around, after all CCL does work on a national level.

Thats why we send people to academies.

So why exactly do we send people to academies? Please go into detail on this?

clean

05-21-2009, 09:57 PM

So why exactly do we send people to academies? Please go into detail on this?

Really dude? Do you really not know why we send people to academies? Because if you don't, then you have bigger problems than just being you.

ColinP

05-21-2009, 10:07 PM

I just wish FN's weren't prohibs. Of all the banned guns, thats really the only one I wish wasn't.

I look at my safe queen all the time and sigh.

So people who are concerned, please show me the stats to back up your concerns, I have looked at the figures for CCW permit carriers that have been charged and it's around 1%. As for the tired argument that they won't respond properly or it will be taken away from them, again show me the proof, how many times does a permit carrier get their gun taken away from them?

The schools could deal with their concerns by requiring the CCW holders to take a campus familization course and documents showing recent range practice. Frankly i would much rather be around a CCW holder than not. Legal gun owners in Canada and the US are not the problem.

ex Strathcona

05-21-2009, 10:19 PM

an armed society is a polite (and much safer) society
after the initial die off of tards that is, give it 6 months

Geezah

05-21-2009, 10:29 PM

Really dude? Do you really not know why we send people to academies? Because if you don't, then you have bigger problems than just being you.

Please explain?

I'd like to know Pete031 and your thoughts on this?

Pete031

05-22-2009, 02:32 AM

We send people to Police academies in order to train them to properly protect the masses. We grant them the power to uphold the law.

As I said before, I have no problem with resposible gun ownership, nor do I have problems with people defending their homes. However, college campuses allowing students to bring weapons into a learning enviroment is wrong in my opinion.

Students away from home for the first time, starting to drink and all that, should not have readily available firearms on campus.

Geezah

05-22-2009, 08:27 AM

We send people to Police academies in order to train them to properly protect the masses. We grant them the power to uphold the law.

That is what I was waiting for.

We have Police to ENFORCE THE LAW, they are not our personal bodyguards, they are reactionary, and there was a Supreme Court case that states this.

So in order to respond to an immediate threat you would need someone on site!

As I said before, I have no problem with resposible gun ownership, nor do I have problems with people defending their homes. However, college campuses allowing students to bring weapons into a learning enviroment is wrong in my opinion.

Again this does not compute, you support responsible firearm ownership but just so long as 21yr old college kids aren't involved.

Students away from home for the first time, starting to drink and all that, should not have readily available firearms on campus.

Projection on your part I would say..........

RxOnco

05-22-2009, 08:41 AM

...As I said before, I have no problem with resposible gun ownership, nor do I have problems with people defending their homes. However, college campuses allowing students to bring weapons into a learning enviroment is wrong in my opinion...

CCL is about self defense, not law enforcement. We're not a bunch of deputised cowboys lookin' for outlaws. It seems you have no problems carring concealed weapons everywhere but college campuses. Well, for these CCL holders, they spend a great deal of their day on campus. It only makes sense to allow them to carry their weapon to protect themselves if need be. Why should it be ok for a student to cross the street, be "off campus" and it be ok in your mind? The same loose cannons still carry their guns everywhere else and nothing bad seems to be happening.
These anti-gun sentiments are much like the arguments against nuclear power. A lot of what-ifs and nothing to back it up.

seraosha

05-22-2009, 08:45 AM

Wow, great contribution to the thread. 110 percent right there.

To be quite blunt, that's about the level of argument the anti-self defense crowd brings to the discussion here. Granted, without a /sarcasm emote it does get lost in translation...then again considering the participants, falling back on the "cool story, bro" seems appropriate. Oh wait.../FAIL, does that make it better?

The cops are there to pick up the pieces, not protect you.

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

TheSteve

05-22-2009, 08:53 AM

Weapons shouldnt be allowed in an educational environment such as a college campus. Why is there a need to carry on campus? How does this solve anything?

I hope this doesnt get passed, but then again, its Texas.

California Joe

05-22-2009, 08:54 AM

Hey a bunch of part timers, colonial troops does not equal fighting the best army in the world. Yeah sure they may have been part of the best army in the world but they were after all only colonial troops so they were not exactly the best army in the world.

You know I give credit where credit is due. Rebelling against a nation that is already at war trying to stop aggressive nations from ruling the free world. Yep that takes some hard ****s.

Haha to gain freedom from a constitutional monarchy with a democratic parliament you need help from an absolute monarch IE tyrant, dictator)

Irony

Have a nice day. I'll grab my hatp-)

I was calling the British Army the best army in the world you obtuse numpty.

Soldat_Américain

05-22-2009, 09:01 AM

I was calling the British Army the best army in the world you obtuse numpty.
It was obvious Joe...but sometimes things fly over peoples heads.

Violet Fashion by Mindy

05-22-2009, 09:03 AM

I was agreeing with you. You battled elements of the best army in the world. Just a shame those elements were probably the worst elements of the best army of the world.

:)

California Joe

05-22-2009, 09:04 AM

Quit agreeing with me, you're ruining my credibility.

Violet Fashion by Mindy

05-22-2009, 09:09 AM

You're credibility went out the window 46 years ago. Well so Bee said anyway

Pete031

05-22-2009, 10:37 AM

Yeah, No sh1t.

And as I have previously stated, I have no problem with gun ownership, or concealed carry. But not at an educational institute.

When does it end? SHould highschool students be allowed? Or is that completely different?

And BTW Geezah, my Commenwealth friend, The university remark is not a projection, I attended University and I know how kids are. You think that kids are mature enough, to live in a dorm, be exposed to alchohol for the first time (I think Texas has the largest contribution of students to Spring Break), and then carry guns at school?

WTF man. Most are still retards till they are well into their 20's.

Pete031

05-22-2009, 10:38 AM

I was calling the British Army the best army in the world you obtuse numpty.

Wrong! p-)

RxOnco

05-22-2009, 11:01 AM

...When does it end? SHould highschool students be allowed? Or is that completely different?...

Last I checked, high school students don't qualify for a CCL.

Pete031

05-22-2009, 11:11 AM

Last I checked, high school students don't qualify for a CCL.

You know what I mean.

But in that case, a bill can be proposed, and Highschool students can do it to. Why not right?

The Dane

05-22-2009, 11:21 AM

So.. this is an arms-race between the sane and the insane.. !!

Hand over the popcorn! :cantbeli:

seraosha

05-22-2009, 11:53 AM

You know what I mean.

But in that case, a bill can be proposed, and Highschool students can do it to. Why not right?

And you mock my posts?
:roll:

Pete031

05-22-2009, 11:57 AM

Well, whats the difference? When does a person become mature?
These students are not in a territory of war or chaos...

Geezah

05-22-2009, 12:08 PM

And as I have previously stated, I have no problem with gun ownership, or concealed carry. But not at an educational institute.

Why, if those that are legally allowed to carry off campus, are they not the same person on?

Your logic is lacking somewhat, all of a sudden people who are on campus turn into idiots.

When does it end? SHould highschool students be allowed? Or is that completely different?

What, so this is what it has come down to, pointless emotional comments.
Are you talking about students that have been kept back a few grades?

And BTW Geezah, my Commenwealth friend,

Don't forget US Citizen, because in the eyes of the American Government, I'm a Citizen first, being English is an added bonus.

The university remark is not a projection, I attended University and I know how kids are. You think that kids are mature enough, to live in a dorm, be exposed to alchohol for the first time (I think Texas has the largest contribution of students to Spring Break), and then carry guns at school?

I still call it projection, as not all students are like you!

WTF man. Most are still retards till they are well into their 20's.

Most, that's a pretty big statement, yet all the States that allow some form of CCW allow people 21 and over to carry firearms concealed.

Geezah

05-22-2009, 12:09 PM

So.. this is an arms-race between the sane and the insane.. !!

Any chance you could back up your one liner?

Ironsight06

05-22-2009, 12:13 PM

Why, if those that are legally allowed to carry off campus, are they not the same person on?

Your logic is lacking somewhat, all of a sudden people who are on campus turn into idiots.

...

I still call it projection, as not all students are like you!
You have obviously never lived on a college campus...

Pete031

05-22-2009, 12:39 PM

LOL, I was in the Military while going through school, so I would like to think that most of my actions would have had great reactions.

I'm not saying people change once they leave campus, I am saying a campus is no place for guns.

I am certainly not getting emotional about this thread, as the outcome has no effect on me whatsoever. I am just saying my opinion.

Yeah calling kids who have not experienced life for all that long retards, is a big statement. However, are you the same person you were when you were 21?

You can keep insulting my logic, but what arguement have you brought? You just seem to counter mine.... What reasons do you have for Kids, in their early 20, to bring concealed weapons to univeristy?

RxOnco

05-22-2009, 12:51 PM

...You can keep insulting my logic, but what arguement have you brought? You just seem to counter mine.... What reasons do you have for Kids, in their early 20, to bring concealed weapons to univeristy?

These "kids" in their early 20's seem to behave just fine with their CCL's off campus. There's no reason to think they wouldn't do the same on campus.

Geezah

05-22-2009, 01:02 PM

I'm not saying people change once they leave campus, I am saying a campus is no place for guns.

Why?

While I would like to agree, I would prefer to give those students that are already adult enough to carry concealed to carry on college campus. The campus will no longer be a soft target for wackos that choose soft targets to commit their terrible crimes.

My buddy and his wife are both at college, they both have their CCWs, and they are both Iraq War veterans. I would trust them both on campus with a firearm.

I am certainly not getting emotional about this thread, as the outcome has no effect on me whatsoever. I am just saying my opinion.

But you are, you have offered nothing to back up your point.

Yeah calling kids who have not experienced life for all that long retards, is a big statement. However, are you the same person you were when you were 21?

Of course not, but that does not mean that I did not have an understanding that for every actions there is a reaction.

You can keep insulting my logic, but what arguement have you brought? You just seem to counter mine....

Because you have offered nothing to back up your fear mongering. Toby Hoover said the same thing about CCW prior to it becomign law in Ohio. The streets were supposed to run red with blood at some point, still haven't seen it.

Also, in the instances where law abiding citizens have been able to secure a firearm they have managed to stop an immidiete from getting any worse.

What reasons do you have for Kids, in their early 20, to bring concealed weapons to univeristy?

What reasons, Virginian Tech is reason enough for me.

If they meet the requirements set by the law of the State, then let them carry on campus if the law allows.
If we listened to all the fear mongers out there(including yourself) we wouldn't be where we are now with 48 out of 50 States offering some form of CCW!

Pete031

05-22-2009, 01:05 PM

How am I a fear monger?

oswald

05-22-2009, 01:25 PM

I despise douchebags who invoke Tech in their gun fanatic tirades because they heard all about it on ****ing CNN.

rhino

05-22-2009, 01:28 PM

the potential of this idea to backfire is just astounding

I hope we wont live to witness it

seraosha

05-22-2009, 01:38 PM

I despise douchebags who invoke Tech in their gun fanatic tirades because they heard all about it on ****ing CNN.

Because using current events like school shootings that might have been prevented or mitigated by students carrying is somehow...what?

Relevant to the topic being discussed?

Dispatcher

05-22-2009, 01:48 PM

From a LEO point of view; If i respond to a shooting, and see people with guns... Guess what?

Its a cluster**** waiting to happen. Guns have no business in schools, universities or kindergarten.

Will Clark

05-22-2009, 01:53 PM

You can keep insulting my logic, but what arguement have you brought? You just seem to counter mine.... What reasons do you have for Kids, in their early 20, to bring concealed weapons to univeristy?

His argument is pretty well backed and straight forward. Adults going about their business shouldn't be deprived of the best means of self defense. All arguments about the reckless bloodbaths this will create are null because A: All evidence from statistics compiled on CCL for over a decade by the Texas government directly contradict it. B: All evidence from other schools currently allowing concealed carry show not a single incident thus far.

Now what evidence do you offer to the contrary? I'd like to hear a single rational argument backed with some reliable evidence that explains why we're wrong here.

Perspective is a valuable aid, most people here seem to lack it. As someone who was licensed while in the later stages of college let me clue you in to something. These 'kids' are already carrying firearms..even on campus, lawfully. The only thing this will change is that they'll now be allowed to carry inside buildings. They've been carrying around town and through campus for a long time, where has the drunken violence been thus far?

'Kids, in their early 20['s]', read that again, that statement is pretty ridiculous. We're talking about adults. People who have been in college about three years already, staff, etc. Everyone from your normal 21 year old junior/senior, to the 93 year old WWII veteran I had as a professor.

Perspective and perception. We're talking about allowing 1.3% of the population, of which only 2.25% are in the 21-22 year old range, who have proven themselves very law abiding, who can already carry all over campus, to now carry inside of a few buildings. That mean you can expect 1:3500 students to carry, and a little more than 1:100 for teachers and staff. Pretty far from the picture I suspect most people have.

Fargin

05-22-2009, 02:12 PM

Will Clark

05-22-2009, 02:14 PM

From a LEO point of view; If i respond to a shooting, and see people with guns... Guess what?

Its a cluster**** waiting to happen. Guns have no business in schools, universities or kindergarten.

Tell me what. You'll shoot them no matter what, or you'll order them to drop the weapon and fire if they do something stupid, like threaten people with it. When you respond to a shooting anywhere else, what do you do if you see someone with a gun? Also, where are you from?

Unfortunately words don't stop them from traveling there, just like anywhere else; it's hypocritical for police to tell us we should shouldn't be allowed the means to defend ourselves, especially if the reasoning is because in the rarest of rare situations (school shooting), it might make your job harder. It's like saying that people's safety is expendable 99.9999% of the time, including in all the more common crimes like rape/robbery/burglary/assault/murder, if there's even a chance of an increment increase in difficulty to separate the gunman from the cannon fodder that other .0001% of the time.

Pete031

05-22-2009, 02:21 PM

Will Clark

05-22-2009, 02:23 PM

There is no actual threat to Texan students that require them to introduce concealed weapons to instutions of higher learning. It's nothing but populist lawmaking, catering to lobbyists and fanatics.

It's a violation of integrity of these institutions.

There were 4 cases of forcible rape, 5 aggravated assaults, 1 robbery, and 17 burglaries, at my alma mater last year, among other less violent crimes.

Until you'd take the place of any of those victims, I think it's reason enough to allow people to defend themselves.

RxOnco

05-22-2009, 02:23 PM

...CCL or CCW is what? a 10 hour course? Using a weapon in an enviroment which would be full of other people. Are these people competent enough to fire their weapons without hitting innocents?

More harm then good will come out of it.

What about a grocery store? Or anywhere else permitted for that matter. It sounds to me that you simply don't agree with the CCL in general.

Soldat_Américain

05-22-2009, 02:29 PM

Anyone think of going back to the old west...let's have an open carry law. And it's a serious and not serious statement at the same time.

Pete031

05-22-2009, 02:34 PM

What about a grocery store? Or anywhere else permitted for that matter. It sounds to me that you simply don't agree with the CCL in general.

I agree with it. But, not at a place of learning... A grocery store is different then a classroom full of people.

RxOnco

05-22-2009, 02:42 PM

Anyone think of going back to the old west...let's have an open carry law. And it's a serious and not serious statement at the same time.

I'm all for it. It's actually been tossed around a time or two. Got shot down immediately.

I agree with it. But, not at a place of learning... A grocery store is different then a classroom full of people.

I give up!:cantbeli:

Will Clark

05-22-2009, 02:43 PM

I know I am not going to change your mind... I don't want to. My opinion is, Weapons in educational institues, like Universities are a bad idea. And if it is so violent there, that the average citizen, needs to arm themselves, well, then you have bigger fish to fry.

Sure there may be a small minority of students who actually take a weapon to class, but it is the fact that it's ok. For Students to arm themselves.

CCL or CCW is what? a 10 hour course? Using a weapon in an enviroment which would be full of other people. Are these people competent enough to fire their weapons without hitting innocents?

More harm then good will come out of it.

You're not going to change my mind because you can't present me with an opinion that is backed with anything solid. People say kids will fire wildly, I point at statistics that say the opposite. Than means their position isn't valid. People talk about how dangerous this will make things, I put it in perspective to show how little they're arguing about. That means they have a valid opinion, but they're arguing about peanuts.

You say weapons in educational institutions are a bad idea, can you explain why?

It isn't extremely violent here, on the contrary it looks like concealed carry is the reason for our comparatively low amount of crime. The point is that we shouldn't remove that option from those who wish to have it. I wouldn't want a female friend walking home from class at night unarmed only because someone perceived them self as being safer in a school shooing this way.

You ignored what I said, or don't care that these students aren't the ones committing crimes. They're already armed, they're already strolling around campus packing heat, so why would I take issue with them in a few more buildings?

Are they competent enough? Well, they have been so far. And if they aren't, then they've had good enough judgment not to open fire.

Tell ya what, if this passes, PM me when the first person ****s up and hits an innocent person, has their gun used against them, or screws up horribly, and remind me that I was wrong. Else I'll PM you yearly and say 'Told you so.'

Will Clark

05-22-2009, 02:46 PM

Anyone think of going back to the old west...let's have an open carry law. And it's a serious and not serious statement at the same time.

There are only two states without open carry, Texas is one of them.

Also, people who perceive things as becoming the wild west tell us a lot about themselves. The day this law, or open carry for that matter, takes effect will look exactly like the day before.

I agree with it. But, not at a place of learning... A grocery store is different then a classroom full of people.

Alright, now explain to us why a concealed weapon in a classroom is somehow different than at a grocery store, or a movie theater.

Soldat_Américain

05-22-2009, 03:05 PM

There are only two states without open carry, Texas is one of them.

Also, people who perceive things as becoming the wild west tell us a lot about themselves.
I was just throwing it out there

Geezah

05-22-2009, 03:23 PM

From a LEO point of view; If i respond to a shooting, and see people with guns... Guess what?

That would be the case no matter what..right?

So why are we not hearing about the millions of law abiding citizens that defend themselves with firearms each year then being shot by Police when they arrive on scene after the fact?

Geezah

05-22-2009, 03:28 PM

Anyone think of going back to the old west...let's have an open carry law. And it's a serious and not serious statement at the same time.

Ohio has open carry on the books. Makes more sense to carry concealed, no point in advertising you're carrying a firearm.

Geezah

05-22-2009, 03:37 PM

Something that has been missed by those that harp on about bad ju ju.
Ohio saw a drop in violent crime when CCW was enacted in Ohio. There was no increase in shootings by the law abiding, but just the fact that the law abiding can now respond with equal or greater force, this does not sound appealing to those that prey on SOFT TARGETS!

RxOnco

05-22-2009, 03:39 PM

Ohio has open carry on the books. Makes more sense to carry concealed, no point in advertising you're carrying a firearm.

But then you can't pull this off:

http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:S2ZqqAuhGzswVM:http://www.albertspage.it/sigle_tv/foto/Miami%2520vice20.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.albertspage.it/sigle_tv/foto/Miami%2520vice20.jpg&imgrefurl=http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D46%26t%3D70699%26start%3D75&usg=__wEyryy19T_ApfljzxycxIf-B9Jg=&h=1012&w=750&sz=205&hl=en&start=35&tbnid=S2ZqqAuhGzswVM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=111&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsonny%2Bcrockett%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26start%3D20)

Pete031

05-22-2009, 05:50 PM

Alright, now explain to us why a concealed weapon in a classroom is somehow different than at a grocery store, or a movie theater.

How is it different? If you have been in a fire fight in an urban area, you will know that with civilians present, pandemonium ensues. An open classroom is a nightmare for clearing... First off you may have up to 200 students in a large univeristy classroom, with hardly any cover.

Campus shootings more often then not are done to prove a point... To kill students. Grocery store hold ups are for different reasons

A grocery store has all sorts of cover. But thats not the point I was making. I'm sure you know that.

It's about Children or young adults going to an institute where they should not be in a constant state of paranoia.

If Texas or any other state wants to solve campus shootings, then have better force protection. Don't throw more guns into the mix.

With the school shootings we have seen before, the last thing you would want to happen is a long and drawn out fire fight between criminals and students, with the Police trying to determine who is who.

In some circumstances, it may work, and the guy with the concealed weapon will take down an attacking force and save the day,
But on the other hand if it doesn't, things will get even more chaotic.

And if a 10 hour course readies some 21 year old to move through the fatal funnel into a room and engage multiple targets on the move without hitting inocents, well then that person should more likely be in Ft Bragg then in university.

California Joe

05-22-2009, 05:54 PM

Frankly, it's the raging hardon of glee that some of you post with over this that makes me question the sanity of the idea in the first place. The "Oh yeah, wait'll some bitch tries this on my watch in Eco 101" attitude that is rather frightening. It's not like they passed a law that gives free blowjobs from cheerleaders or some sh*t.

Geezah

05-22-2009, 06:13 PM

Campus shootings more often then not are done to prove a point... To kill students. Grocery store hold ups are for different reasons

I posted a story from Texas where a nut job drove his pick up through the front door of a restaurant, who then went on a rampage killing everyone in sight. This was a restaurant, not a school or grocery store.

It's about Children or young adults going to an institute where they should not be in a constant state of paranoia.

What?

What does weed have to do with this?

If Texas or any other state wants to solve campus shootings, then have better force protection. Don't throw more guns into the mix.

It's not throwing more firearms into the mix, it is giving people a choice, why is that so hard to understand?

With the school shootings we have seen before, the last thing you would want to happen is a long and drawn out fire fight between criminals and students, with the Police trying to determine who is who.

Which has not happened in the cases where nutjobs have been stopped mid massacre by the law abiding who have secured firearms that were off campus.

In some circumstances, it may work, and the guy with the concealed weapon will take down an attacking force and save the day,
But on the other hand if it doesn't, things will get even more chaotic.

But and ifs, this is all good, thereare 2.5million defensive uses of firearms a year, I have a little more faith in the law abiding than you!

And if a 10 hour course readies some 21 year old to move through the fatal funnel into a room and engage multiple targets on the move without hitting inocents, well then that person should more likely be in Ft Bragg then in university.

What?

Do you think that those that pursue CCW are itching to play out Blackhawk Down in their head?
Again I think this is projection on your part.

My CCW is to hopefully secure safe passage for myself and my family, it is a last resort, as I expect to be arrested and have to prove my innocence if God Forbid anything were ever to happen, but I still have been given that option.

Fintin

05-22-2009, 09:51 PM

Anyone taking into account that Utah already allows concealed carry on a college campus?

Walter Sobchak

05-22-2009, 11:13 PM

So... what happens when the Sooners crush UT in Austin and there's a bunch of drunk Longhorn fans packing heat?

DUH! They're in Dallas every years and packing now! But that's football... nobody gets shot over that stuff.

To this whole issue, I'd say that a lot more people have been murdered on college campuses by criminal with guns than are likely to ever be killed with legal handguns carried there. All "Gun Free Zone" tells criminals is "Unarmed Prey Zone". Many universities are in high-crime urban areas, such as the University of Houston, and crime rates on college campuses can often be much higher than surrounding neighborhoods where people may be carrying a weapon.

Aerosoul

05-23-2009, 12:06 AM

But that's football... nobody gets shot over that stuff.
http://www.selmatimesjournal.com/news/2008/nov/10/brewton-couple-killed-argument-over-alabama-ball-g/

Fintin

05-23-2009, 12:26 AM

DUH! They're in Dallas every years and packing now! But that's football... nobody gets shot over that stuff.

To this whole issue, I'd say that a lot more people have been murdered on college campuses by criminal with guns than are likely to ever be killed with legal handguns carried there. All "Gun Free Zone" tells criminals is "Unarmed Prey Zone". Many universities are in high-crime urban areas, such as the University of Houston, and crime rates on college campuses can often be much higher than surrounding neighborhoods where people may be carrying a weapon.

Have you stopped to see if the high crime rates on college campuses are drug related...Such as kids getting busted for pot and the like?

Violet Fashion by Mindy

05-23-2009, 05:10 AM

Hey Geezah answer an ex LEO's response.

Geezah

05-23-2009, 09:53 AM

Hey Geezah answer an ex LEO's response.

Which one?

commanding

05-23-2009, 10:52 AM

And if a 10 hour course readies some 21 year old to move through the fatal funnel into a room and engage multiple targets on the move without hitting inocents, well then that person should more likely be in Ft Bragg then in university.

I don't think that the purpose of the CHL in Texas, is to enable the CHL holder, to go Special Forces/ Dirty Harry on mulitple targets, as military or tactical police might do. It is rather, a last resort means of saving one's own life, or the life of another, as a last resort type of thing. Even then, people are taught to be observant of what is behind /close to any target they must engage. I would guess that young college age ladies, would be the ones who might benefit a lot from the CHL while walking to classes from off campus parking at night courses, etc. At least it should give them a sense of security from potential assaults.

Walter Sobchak

05-23-2009, 11:15 AM

Have you stopped to see if the high crime rates on college campuses are drug related...Such as kids getting busted for pot and the like?

No, those crimes happen pretty much across a community as well as on a campus. In fact, I'd imagine there is less "drug related" crimes on campus because mostly all you have there is a little weed, as opposed to your meth and crack users, who usually don't stay in school. If they do, they're probably crashed out in the dorm or live off-campus until they flunk out. No, I'm talking about armed robbery by non-college students. I personally know two persons robbed on or near the University of Houston campus and one who was robbed at Tulane in 'Nawlins.

But... in the case of a spree-shooter on campus, it only takes one person with one gun, and an entire unarmed population of students and employees are at that person's mercy.

Walter Sobchak

05-23-2009, 11:20 AM

http://www.selmatimesjournal.com/news/2008/nov/10/brewton-couple-killed-argument-over-alabama-ball-g/

'Bama isn't Texas. Yeah, there is the odd exception everywhere, but generally speaking, we don't have to build moats and high fences around out "football" fields to prevent refs and players from being dismembered, and I can't remember the last time any American footballer was murdered for doing something that lead to the other team gettin points (we have no 'auto-goal').

However, UT versus A&M or OU versus UT doesn't carry the intense passion that any Tide versus Auburn match-up does. Those people just craaaa-zy.

Fintin

05-24-2009, 03:06 PM

'Bama isn't Texas. Yeah, there is the odd exception everywhere, but generally speaking, we don't have to build moats and high fences around out "football" fields to prevent refs and players from being dismembered, and I can't remember the last time any American footballer was murdered for doing something that lead to the other team gettin points (we have no 'auto-goal').

However, UT versus A&M or OU versus UT doesn't carry the intense passion that any Tide versus Auburn match-up does. Those people just craaaa-zy.

Are you saying that concealed carry on a college campus should be judged on the intensity of the instate college rivalries? Really?

ColinP

05-25-2009, 11:43 PM

I have to laugh, all of the concerns are based on the same tired arguments, which have little or no merit. There is so much statistical data to prove you wrong. Yes there might be an incident, we are dealing with humans, but the facts show the benefits outweigh the tiny risks. Schools as “gun free zones” attract nutbars like flies to poop, once these nutbars are faced with a threat, they almost always end up killing themselves. The odds (based on the current LEO studies) are that any armed response is going to throw them off their gameplan and reduce causalities. Hence the reason the LEO are going to the immediate response, first unit there goes in and starts hunting the gunman. This is based on the history of LEO responses where they have sat outside organizing themselves while the gunman happily kills as many people as possible, needless to say taxpayers were not amused. The saddest case of this was in Quebec where police took about 45 minutes from arriving before entering the building. In that time the gunman was able to separate the male students and gun down the female students despite his mini-14 jamming forcing him to spend time clearing it and also having time to reload while being watched. Recently in Quebec another gunman was killed by 2 officers that happened to be there on other business, he was only able to kill one person before the police engaged him. Having armed students/staff forces the gunman to consider the possibility of dealing with an armed response from any direction, at the very least this will slow them down, at the best it might force them to keep their sick fantasies in their head.

As for the “special status” of schools, Bull poop!!! Universities are a business often with a population the size of a small town, with much less police protection. The students should be suing VT asses off for not providing an adequate security and response and denying properly licensed individuals to provide their own. If in all the university staff out there, you can’t find people that can safely carry a concealed firearm, then you better fire the lot, because they should be allowed anywhere near our kids.
Now will the naysayers please provide stats showing an increase in crime directly related to issuance and carry of legally permitted concealed firearms.

Uboj

05-26-2009, 01:28 AM

Firearm offence indictment rates for US CCW permit holders is around 1% of the total. The risk is small. The FBI estimates about 2 million crimes are thwarted each year by armed citizens, some poll results put that number as high as 4 million crimes stopped a year. Not having an armed response has proven fatal, time and time again. CCW has already shown to deter crimes.

You guys need to get rid of the outdated gun laws.

Its certainly not helping your society out in any meaningful way.

Do as the Aussies do, ban all guns, and stick to knives p-)

Geezah

05-26-2009, 08:20 AM

You guys need to get rid of the outdated gun laws.

Its certainly not helping your society out in any meaningful way.

Please explain......?

Lasse

05-26-2009, 09:28 AM

Look at other countries probably, which have high amounts of gun owners, but no killing.

But I guess the problem started way back, and there is a flood of firearms (both legal and illegal, both shoot bullets so there isn't really a difference) which makes gun related crimes sky rocket compared to other countries.

I'd imagine a situation like this (try to picture it), 1, 3, 5 etc. on one side, 2, 4, 6 on another. 1 shoots at 2, 4 see 1 with a gun, shoots 1, 3 see 4 with a gun, shoots 4, 6 see 3 with a gun, shoots 3, 5 see 6 with a gun, shoot 6 (and it goes on forever). Then add Police, Security etc. into the mix, and you have a new Civil War on a Campus.

And the bad guys, they know one guy is armed (CCL), gangs up on him and takes his gun (you ain't Chuck Norris, and you cannot draw at the speed of light) and starts shooting. Then all those security checks at enterances are a waste.

RxOnco

05-26-2009, 09:42 AM

...And the bad guys, they know one guy is armed (CCL), gangs up on him and takes his gun...

What movie are you talking about? "Bad guys?"...I'm not sure of the last time a group of bad guys have infiltrated a school campus and took it over. Well, maybe this one...

http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:8jXqRowtOEatGM:http://www.impawards.com/1991/posters/toy_soldiers.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.impawards.com/1991/posters/toy_soldiers.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.impawards.com/1991/toy_soldiers.html&usg=__WTb92-kTCBGCE4byMZu41INluuk=&h=755&w=508&sz=70&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=8jXqRowtOEatGM:&tbnh=142&tbnw=96&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtoy%2Bsoldiers%2Bmovie%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1)

We get lone crazies over here in America. One guy, a couple of guns, and lots of ammo.

Lasse

05-26-2009, 10:04 AM

So all the school shootings in the past 10 years, was all done by "nice dudes"? Are you just trying to make the entire part into a joke instead of giving me a serious answer?

RxOnco

05-26-2009, 10:17 AM

...And the bad guys, they know one guy is armed (CCL), gangs up on him and takes his gun (you ain't Chuck Norris, and you cannot draw at the speed of light) and starts shooting. Then all those security checks at enterances are a waste.

So all the school shootings in the past 10 years, was all done by "nice dudes"? Are you just trying to make the entire part into a joke instead of giving me a serious answer?

No...was making a point. These types of shootings are almost always going to be a loner. Therefore, anybody there to disrupt the plan has the potential to save lives.

ColinP

05-26-2009, 12:33 PM

In condition yellow it takes me approx 2-3 seconds to draw from a concelled holster. You won't know I have it till it's to late for you. The bad guys are going to have to assume that anyone of several hunderd to a thousand students/staff are armed possibly more than one armed person. Look at the response that the majority of these attackers have had to an armed response, they fold and either get shot or commit suicide.

Also school shooting is only one aspect, campus are a "target rich enivornment" for your average crimmanl and they do prey on the students and staff. CCW has already had a clear effect on these types of crimes. Crime rates in the US have been dropping despite a massive increase in legal firearm ownership, in fact crime rates have been dropping at almost double the rate as Canada. This effect is not due just to legal guns, but it's clear that legal gun ownership does not increase crime. In fact the areas in the US with the highest homicide rates, also have the strongest gun control laws.
Now if we could only expand CCW in Canada, currently only the "important" people get it. Known here as ATC level III

seraosha

05-26-2009, 12:50 PM

I'd imagine a situation like this (try to picture it), 1, 3, 5 etc. on one side, 2, 4, 6 on another. 1 shoots at 2, 4 see 1 with a gun, shoots 1, 3 see 4 with a gun, shoots 4, 6 see 3 with a gun, shoots 3, 5 see 6 with a gun, shoot 6 (and it goes on forever). Then add Police, Security etc. into the mix, and you have a new Civil War on a Campus.

And the bad guys, they know one guy is armed (CCL), gangs up on him and takes his gun (you ain't Chuck Norris, and you cannot draw at the speed of light) and starts shooting. Then all those security checks at enterances are a waste.

Can someone translate this?

California Joe

05-26-2009, 12:54 PM

Can someone translate this?

He's angry because his **** isn't as big as yours.

seraosha

05-26-2009, 01:44 PM

He's angry because his **** isn't as big as yours.

I was told there would be no math.

California Joe

05-26-2009, 01:51 PM

I truly believe that if we can get two women on the supreme court, we can get at least one on you.

clean

05-26-2009, 01:54 PM

^^^ She's going to need a case of Shiner Bock.

seraosha

05-26-2009, 02:00 PM

Hey now, I need more women in my life like a fish needs a bicycle.
2 wives is enough for any sane man.
A starter and a finisher.

And the Cajun Princess™ only drinks crown & coke, :).

clean

05-26-2009, 02:12 PM

2 wives is enough for any sane man.
A starter and a finisher.

Wow. You and I agree on something. It is one world after all.

Lasse

05-26-2009, 02:54 PM

Can someone translate this?
I has make a pix 4 u
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/4372/loltexas.jpg
woot

Geezah

05-26-2009, 07:50 PM

And the bad guys, they know one guy is armed (CCL), gangs up on him and takes his gun (you ain't Chuck Norris, and you cannot draw at the speed of light) and starts shooting. Then all those security checks at enterances are a waste.

And how exactly do they know that one guy has a CONCEALED HANDGUN, do they have X-RAY vision?

Fintin

05-26-2009, 09:41 PM

The point of a CCW is for personal defense correct? If I am in a classroom in a building that is being shot up, I am not playing the hero. Best option would be barricade the door and then yourselves in the room while attempting to find a way out. Almost all the college class rooms I have ever been in, spanning attendance at three universities thus far, have ben built to allow little to no view of the room from a closed door.

The only plausible way to shoot an attacker in most academic buildings would be to get him coming through the door of the room you are holed up in.

Logic would state you are much safer locked in your room then to attempt to make contact. There are guys with bigger guns and body armor on the way.

Geezah

05-27-2009, 08:14 AM

Lasse

05-27-2009, 08:26 AM

And how exactly do they know that one guy has a CONCEALED HANDGUN, do they have X-RAY vision?Just because it's concealed doesn't mean it disappears until you want it. You can hide it well, but if you go to school with someone for a couple of years, you learn all kinds of things about people.

Fintin, yeah, I'd also go for that, but there are always D3LTALOL people who wants to save the day an become the hero, which could trigger my worst case scenario.

commanding

05-27-2009, 08:50 AM

Imaginary scenarios generally will be invalid. The whole purpose of the Concealed handgun permit is to keep the badguys guessing who has a handgun and who does not, and how many of the good guys have handguns.
Yes when you go school with (or work with) someone for a long time you may learn a few of who has a CHL and who does not. But not everyone will tell you he/she has one...and even then, some of them may or may not be carrying that day.

I agree with the poster who said that generall the bad guy shooter will be a single nutjob, the scenario of two shooter bad guys (like Columbine) is not the typical thing. The nutjob shooter here in Fort worth that went into a church and killed people was a lone shooter, as was the Luby's cafeteria shooter who drove the pickup into the front wall of the Luby's. Charles Whitman was a lone shooter in 1966. Lee Harvey Oswald was a lone shooter (we think) in 1963, etc, etc.

Basically, you can not tell which days I will be carrying a handgun, and if so where I am carrying it, nor how many handguns I have on my person.
You would be surprised at the "look" of some of the folks in CHL classes, a lot of "Casper Milktoast" and Granny looking folks. The best freakin' shot at the range I go to is the biggest Casper Milktoast looking guy you have ever seen, but he shoots all his rounds into a pattern the size of a silver dollar. He looks like your average 65 year old balding accountant. He practices every week.

RxOnco

05-27-2009, 08:53 AM

Imaginary scenarios generally will be invalid...

But that's all they have...don't take those away...then they'll have nothing!

Geezah

05-27-2009, 10:41 AM

Just because it's concealed doesn't mean it disappears until you want it. You can hide it well, but if you go to school with someone for a couple of years, you learn all kinds of things about people.

Are you for real, my own family can't tell I'm carrying most of the time.

So again, if it is CONCEALED, and most people don't advertise the fact, how will other people unless told know that the student is carrying?

Fintin, yeah, I'd also go for that, but there are always D3LTALOL people who wants to save the day an become the hero, which could trigger my worst case scenario.

While it may trigger YOUR worse case scenario, more often than not those that are legally armed have been able to stop/or slow down a potential disaster.

As you seem to be well versed in the ways of man, any chance you could provide information that outlines YOUR idea that there are "D3LTALOL people who wants to save the day an become the hero"?

Lasse

05-27-2009, 11:09 AM

Geezah

05-27-2009, 11:15 AM

I just imagine a fresh hot shot 21 year old with a brand new handgun and CCL.
People do a lot of stupid things, so I wouldn't be surpriced if 1 of the billions of people on earth wouldn't be the one that took down the gun maniac at a school.

There we have it!

It is not that you have any information to back up your ideas, it is just that you have an active imagination.

seraosha

05-27-2009, 11:33 AM

I has make a pix 4 u
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/4372/loltexas.jpg
woot

Imagine if this much energy had been put into looking up a fact or two?

4X4Driver

05-27-2009, 05:45 PM

Texas Senate OKs guns on college campus bill today...

Wice decision on the TX senate.

Fintin

05-27-2009, 11:27 PM

Exactly..............

But if you barricade yourself in a room, whats the point of having a gun? If you have time to lock the door, you then have time to exit through the window. Campus police already have formed a perimeter, local SWAT then clears.

Much cleaner than some yahoo fratboy who has played HALO one too many times trying to make his own OK Corral...

MaverickCowboy

05-28-2009, 12:16 AM

But if you barricade yourself in a room, whats the point of having a gun? If you have time to lock the door, you then have time to exit through the window. Campus police already have formed a perimeter, local SWAT then clears.

Much cleaner than some yahoo fratboy who has played HALO one too many times trying to make his own OK Corral...

Where was campus police and Swat at VT?

those kids locked in a classroom. kid shot through the door. if someone shot back they could've stopped him.

Geezah

05-28-2009, 08:42 AM

But if you barricade yourself in a room, whats the point of having a gun? If you have time to lock the door, you then have time to exit through the window. Campus police already have formed a perimeter, local SWAT then clears.

There's no guarantee that nutty bar won't be able to get to you behind closed doors, especially if you are on the 3rd or 4th floor where you can't climb out of a window.

Being able to carry gives you the chance to defend yourself, loved ones or a third party with equal or greater force if you are confronted.

We have seen time and again how effective LE are when it comes to an immediate threat, they have checks and balances they have to follow. The instances where law abiding citizens have stopped(while in progress) or confronted a lunatic in a gun free zone have always been there before LE can get on scene.

What it comes down to in my mind is the situation.

Much cleaner than some yahoo fratboy who has played HALO one too many times trying to make his own OK Corral...

And how would you know it is much cleaner, you the scenario above, it is nothing more than your fears being pushed upon others but your fears have no substance.