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Ordie
05-21-2009, 01:31 PM
China: Developed Countries Must Cut Emissions by 40%
SHANGHAI -- China said in a document putting forward its demands for December climate talks in Copenhagen that developed nations must cut their greenhouse gas emissions by at least 40% by 2020 from 1990 levels.

China is also asking rich countries to donate at least 0.5% to 1% of their annual gross domestic product to help poorer countries cope with climate change and greenhouse gas emissions, it said in the document, which was posted on the Web site of the National Development and Reform Commission, the economic policy-making body that governs China's greenhouse gas emissions policy.
International negotiators are hoping to conclude a successor to the Kyoto Protocol, which expires at the end of 2012, in an effort to limit the growth of global-warming greenhouse gas emissions. The 40% target represents the high end of cuts in emissions mentioned in the 2007 Bali Roadmap, which stopped short of endorsing a specific target.
The talks in Copenhagen have taken on extra importance with the Obama administration's reversal of Bush policy by pushing to cap U.S. carbon emissions. On Monday, U.S. lawmakers kicked off debate on legislation creating a "cap and trade" system for curbing pollution.
The U.S. measure aims to reduce greenhouse gas emissions 17% from 2005 levels by 2020. Europe has pledged to cut emissions by at least 20% from 1990 levels by 2020, and by 30% if other advanced economies follow suit.
China has steadfastly resisted any mandatory quotas on carbon emissions – even though it is widely considered to have surpassed the U.S. as the world's top polluter.
But the change in the U.S. position is isolating China, which had argued that the U.S. should take steps before poorer nations, and raises the threat of a possible carbon tax on Chinese imports into the U.S. in order to appease U.S. manufacturers' complaints that Chinese goods could have an unfair advantage if not subjected to costly limits on greenhouse gasses.
India has also refused to accept any carbon caps, arguing like China that such caps would limit economic growth and unfairly penalize late developers. Europe and the U.S. have contributed the bulk of carbon already in the atmosphere and should bear a greater burden, they argue.
China said while rich nations should have quantified targets to radically reduce emissions, poorer countries should have "nationally appropriate," voluntary targets.
The document also made a veiled reference to the U.S., which has not ratified the Kyoto Protocol, saying wealthy nations that have not ratified the treaty should be assigned "comparable" targets for cutting emissions.
China is trying to reduce its carbon emissions by increasing energy efficiency. But critics say even if China burns relatively less coal to produce electricity, its overall growth rate -- electricity-generating capacity is expected to more than double 20 1,600 gigawatts by 2020 -- means that it will still keep adding too much carbon into the atmosphere.
According to Chinese government researchers, China would have to invest an extra 1 trillion yuan, or $146 billion, each year -- or at least 40 trillion yuan until 2050 -- in order to achieve living standards comparable to the West but with relatively low carbon emissions, the official China Daily said.
—Jing Yang and Shai Oster
Source:http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124290515793142949.html

RxOnco
05-21-2009, 02:02 PM
In other news...this guy, says that our country's dietary habits are not healthy enough.

http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:emeDngwrN7bDZM:http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s68/Bradthxforn/fat/****FatGuy.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s68/Bradthxforn/fat/****FatGuy.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sodahead.com/question/218064/why-is-nudity-such-a-bad-thing/%3FpostId%3D7538309&usg=__hLX3qPH8qm8q0Lx-zJt5PkPQZYs=&h=455&w=480&sz=71&hl=en&start=28&um=1&tbnid=emeDngwrN7bDZM:&tbnh=122&tbnw=129&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfat%2Bguy%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26start%3D20%26um%3D1)

Kaapeli
05-21-2009, 02:03 PM
China said while rich nations should have quantified targets to radically reduce emissions, poorer countries should have "nationally appropriate," voluntary targets.

Why does this suggestion sound more like an attempt to stall western economies to catch up with them faster than real concern about the global warming.

Dream on. We will cut our emissions of course but so should China. No free tickers for polluting.

Laworkerbee
05-21-2009, 02:13 PM
Says the country which adds a coal fired power plant on the average of one a week. :roll:

dava
05-21-2009, 02:26 PM
Maybe you should look at the per capita levels first before starting to play the blame game.

Panchito12
05-21-2009, 03:35 PM
China's claim of concern over the enviroment are as baseless and ridiculous as the Iranian boasting over their weapons industry.

LineDoggie
05-21-2009, 04:16 PM
Says the country which adds a coal fired power plant on the average of one a week. :roll:


Tsk, tsk, no Melamine for you!..........

muttbutt
05-21-2009, 04:29 PM
Why does this suggestion sound more like an attempt to stall western economies to catch up with them faster than real concern about the global warming.

Dream on. We will cut our emissions of course but so should China. No free tickers for polluting.
Indeed, no free tickets.

Hispeed1
05-21-2009, 04:29 PM
Pot calling the kettle black?

Soldat_Américain
05-21-2009, 05:19 PM
dude...they want us to cut our emissions so they can increase theirs...quite simple really

AgentX
05-21-2009, 05:59 PM
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g83/reas0n411/Dogs/Kitty4.png

deagle
05-21-2009, 08:03 PM
well, whats China doing ? unless its a global initiative. didn't they extinct that river dolphin ?

TheMiddlePath
05-21-2009, 11:11 PM
Just putting things into perspective.

http://i41.tinypic.com/fn8pw5.jpg

Jaegermeister + Red Bull
05-21-2009, 11:36 PM
China Outpaces United States in Cleaner Coal Fired Plants (http://proactiveinvestors.co.uk/companies/news/5618/arc-china-weekly-news-summary-5618.html)


China’s frenetic construction of coal fired power plants has raised worries around the world about the effect on climate change. China now uses more coal than the United States, Europe and Japan combined.
But largely missing in the hand-wringing is this: China has emerged in the past two years as the world’s leading builder of more efficient, less polluting coal power plants, mastering the technology and driving down the cost.

While the United States is still debating whether to build a more efficient kind of coal-fired power plant that uses extremely hot steam, China has begun building such plants at a rate of one a month.

Construction has stalled in the United States on a new generation of low-pollution power plants that turn coal into a gas before burning it, but China has already approved equipment purchases for just such a power plant, to be assembled soon in in Tianjin.

“The steps they’ve taken are probably as fast and as serious as anywhere in power generation history,” said Hal Harvey, president of ClimateWorks, a group in San Francisco that helps finance projects to limit global warming.

Western countries continue to rely heavily on coal fired power plants built decades ago with outdated, inefficient technology that burns a lot of coal and emits considerable amounts of carbon dioxide. China has begun requiring power companies to retire an older, more polluting power plant for each new one they build.

Cao Peixi, the president of the China Huaneng Group, the majority partner in the joint venture building the Tianjin plant, said his company was committed to the project even though it would cost more than conventional plants.

Without doubt, China’s coal-fired power sector still has many problems, and global warming gases from the country are expected to continue increasing. China’s aim is to use the newest technologies to limit the rate of increase.

Only half the country’s coal-fired power plants have the emissions control equipment to remove sulfur compounds that cause acid rain, and even power plants with that technology do not always use it. China has not begun regulating some of the emissions that lead to heavy smog in big cities.

With greater efficiency, a power plant burns less coal and emits less carbon dioxide for each unit of electricity it generates. Experts say the least efficient plants in China today convert 27 to 36 percent of the energy in coal into electricity. The most efficient plants achieve an efficiency as high as 44 percent, meaning they can cut global warming emissions by more than a third compared with the weakest plants.

After relying until recently on older technology, “China has since become the major world market for advanced coal fired power plants with high-specification emission control systems,” the International Energy Agency said.

China’s improvements are starting to have an effect on climate models. In its latest annual report last November, the I.E.A. cut its forecast of the annual increase in Chinese emissions of global warming gases, to 3 percent from 3.2 percent, in response to technological gains, particularly in the coal sector, even as the agency raised slightly its forecast for Chinese economic growth.

“It’s definitely changing the baseline, and that’s being taken into account,” said Jonathan Sinton, a China specialist at the energy agency.

Source: New York Times


Perspective indeed...

Kilgor
05-21-2009, 11:44 PM
Just putting things into perspective.

http://i41.tinypic.com/fn8pw5.jpg

Environmental issues in China are there regardless of the "per capita" math.

Jaegermeister + Red Bull
05-21-2009, 11:45 PM
Supercritical steam plants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_power_plant#Supercritical_steam_plants)

Above the critical point (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_point_(thermodynamics)) for water (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_(data_page)) of 705 °F (374 °C) and 3,212 psi (22.15 MPa), there is no phase transition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_transition) from water to steam, but only a gradual decrease in density (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density). Boiling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling) does not occur and it is not possible to remove impurities via steam separation. In this case a supercritical steam plant is required to utilise the increased thermodynamic efficiency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamic_efficiency) by operating at higher temperatures. These plants, also called once-through plants because boiler water does not circulate multiple times, require additional water purification steps to ensure that any impurities picked up during the cycle will be removed. This purification takes the form of high pressure ion exchange units called condensate polishers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condensate_polisher) between the steam condenser and the feedwater heaters. Subcritical fossil fuel power plants can achieve 36–40% efficiency. Supercritical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercritical_fluid) designs have efficiencies in the low to mid 40% range, with new "ultra critical" designs using pressures of 4,400 psi (30 MPa) and dual stage reheat reaching about 48% efficiency.
Older nuclear power plants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_plant) must operate below the temperatures and pressures that coal fired plants do. This limits their thermodynamic efficiency to the order of 30–32%. Advanced designs, such as the Advanced gas-cooled reactor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_gas-cooled_reactor) and the Supercritical water reactor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercritical_water_reactor), operate at temperatures and pressures similar to current coal plants, producing comparable efficiency.

Ordie
05-22-2009, 01:53 AM
Environmental issues in China are there regardless of the "per capita" math.

I agree.

Some Chinese provences are more impacted than others. Shanxi is the most polluted place in the world while Yunnan, Hainan and Dalian is less exploited.

"Clean Coal" is an oxymoron.

dava
05-22-2009, 05:27 AM
Environmental issues in China are there regardless of the "per capita" math.

Yes, but who has to cut down? The chinese and other developing countries have made the case that cuts should be made on a per capita basis and not on an absolute level. Which is only logical.

chino65
05-23-2009, 11:21 AM
China Outpaces United States in Cleaner Coal Fired Plants (http://proactiveinvestors.co.uk/companies/news/5618/arc-china-weekly-news-summary-5618.html)

Perspective indeed...

Most people prefer the image of China as the evil empire.

Ordie
05-23-2009, 08:57 PM
Most people prefer the image of China as the evil empire.
As long as China is governed by an authoritarian elite, it will always suffer a poor image.

Kilgor
05-24-2009, 01:51 AM
Yes, but who has to cut down? The chinese and other developing countries have made the case that cuts should be made on a per capita basis and not on an absolute level. Which is only logical.

7/10 most polluted cities are in china, regardless of their per capita math. Its not going to make the major problems go away.

J-10
05-24-2009, 03:40 AM
I think the better way for developed countries to reduce emissions is to develop the low-cost new energy sources(Wind energy, solar energy etc.) by high-tech, encourage the use of electric vehicles.