T95 vs M1A2

[2RHPZ]

From StrategyPage.com

Mirror, mirror, on the wall, which tank is the baddest of them all? This is a question that will touch off a major debate, particularly when one compares two tanks head-to-head. The latest such matchup is the 50-ton T-95, which is in development in Russia, versus the M1A2 Abrams, the front-line tank of the United States Army.

The T-95 is a new design. It will apparently carry a 152mm gun/missile launcher in a new turret designed to lower the silhouette even more than the current low slung T-72 series of tanks. The main gun will carry more of a punch than the 125mm gun used on current Russian tanks. This is a result of lessons learned from Desert Storm, when 125mm armor-piercing rounds bounced off M1A1 Abrams tanks, even when fired from as close as 400 meters. The other major advance will include systems designed to decoy anti-tank missiles (like the Hellfire, Javelin, and TOW). The goal is to jam the sighting systems and to confuse the aim. This also is intended to work against the sighting system for tank guns. Tanks often spend time fighting each other, and their sights work much like the sights used to target and guide anti-tank missiles. The real question is whether the T-95 will see production beyond a few prototypes. Its main competitor, the T-80UM2 “Black Eagle,” has the advantage of being cheaper and an upgrade of the T-80, which is currently in service. The T-95 will need time to have all the kinks worked out of its design. Much of that has already been done with the basic design of the T-80, and the “Black Eagle” will not need as much time to be ready for deployment. The T-95 has improved crew survivability over the T-72, T-80, and T-90 tanks that the Russians currently use, but that is really not saying much, given the fact that the T-72 and its successors provided practically nothing in that area.

That said, the Americans have not stood pat with the M1A1. The 69-ton M1A2 model is nearing ten years old. Its major changes are not in terms of the weapons (it maintains the same weapons as the M1A1: a 120mm main gun, a 12.7mm gun for the commander, and two 7.62mm machine guns – one coaxial with the main gun, the other mounted on the loader’s hatch), but instead, the M1A2 is designed to exchange information with other vehicles faster through IVIS (Inter-Vehicle Information System). IVIS allows a tank crew to find out what other tank crews are seeing, and to tell those other crews what they see. As a result, crews of the M1A2 will have a clearer picture of the battlefield than their opponents in other tanks. That pays dividends. Having a good gun is nice, but you have to know where to point it. The American crews will know faster than their opponents due to IVIS. That means they are more likely to get in the first shot. The fire-control system remains perhaps the best in the world. When an Abrams fires at a target, it is probably going to hit the target. The results will usually be fatal to its target.

The technical specifications do not tell the whole story. The real difference is made in crew quality – and American tank crews have the decided edge over their counterparts in other countries. This is due to two factors: Combat experience in two wars since 1990, and the National Training Center. The former is arguably the best teacher in the world. It brutally shows what was done right and wrong, and grading is not on a curve. The latter is the toughest training regime in the world – often American combat veterans have compared fighting in Desert Storm or Iraqi Freedom to the NTC, with the caveat that the Iraqis weren’t as good as the OPFOR (the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment) at NTC.

The T-95, should it enter service, might have a better gun and could exceed the M1A2’s 429-kilometer range (Russian tanks usually have a range of 550-650 kilometers when equipped with extra fuel tanks), but the M1A2 is superior in most other aspects by which a tank is judged, particularly in fire control, crew survivability, the IVIS system, and since it is already in service, it has the experience edge as well. It might cost $4.3 million per tank when compared to the $1.8 million paid for each of the 320 T-80UDs Pakistan bought from the Ukraine, but the U.S. Army, in battles like 73 Easting (where Eagle Troop of the 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment under H.R. McMaster defeated the Iraqi Tawkalna Division), has proven that the M1A2 can win when badly outnumbered. The M1A2 still rules the battlefield, and will for the foreseeable future.

[mattnwnc03]

i doubt they will have the funds to build the thing, their selling off everything thats not tied down

[Mark Sman]

They'll build it. The Russians always field good tanks. Dunno if its the best. Thats a tired old argument anyway.

When the two-way range goes hot, the exact mm thickness of armor plate and gun bore are just yatta yatta yatta anyway. The Russians will build it to suit their needs and doctrine.

[Ratamacue]

Good point in the article about IVIS and the necessity of overall intelligence and situational awareness on the battlefield.

[FallenAngel]

A few points.

- First, I am glad for the reconignition of the 11th Arm. Cav at Ft. Irwin. Those boys do an awesome job.

- My PERSONAL OPINION is that the Swiss (I think it's the Swiss) version of the Leo2A6 is the best tank in the world technically speaking.

- The T-95 would still be vulnerable to the 'ugly duckingly' of the USAF. THe A-10 with it's GUA8 Avenger cannon would be hard to counter since it's still aimed with the mk.I eyeball.

just my $.02

[perdurabo]

A few points.
- My PERSONAL OPINION is that the Swiss (I think it's the Swiss) version of the Leo2A6 is the best tank in the world technically speaking.

- The T-95 would still be vulnerable to the 'ugly duckingly' of the USAF. THe A-10 with it's GUA8 Avenger cannon would be hard to counter since it's still aimed with the mk.I eyeball.

just my $.02

you ment not swiss but swedish prabably:)

about A10 you know russian panzer troops usually have very good AAprotection i woulnd want to st in a plane when Tor, Buk, S-300 or other... is working near :)

[LongWay]

Even a T-80 can destroy a M1A2 with no trouble russian military has some of the best Tanks,Weapons in the world plus if a A10 attacked they could always try and call in a SU-27 or Mig-29 if they have one near by A10's dont stand a chance to a Stinger missile either.

[Operation Ivy]

Abrams rules woot

[windwind]

A few points.

- First, I am glad for the reconignition of the 11th Arm. Cav at Ft. Irwin. Those boys do an awesome job.

- My PERSONAL OPINION is that the Swiss (I think it's the Swiss) version of the Leo2A6 is the best tank in the world technically speaking.

- The T-95 would still be vulnerable to the 'ugly duckingly' of the USAF. THe A-10 with it's GUA8 Avenger cannon would be hard to counter since it's still aimed with the mk.I eyeball.

just my $.02

I love the hog too but I doubt it'd live long enough to see a T-95 through crosshair... :roll:

[Sayeret]

Even a T-80 can destroy a M1A2 with no trouble russian military has some of the best Tanks,Weapons in the world plus if a A10 attacked they could always try and call in a SU-27 or Mig-29 if they have one near by A10's dont stand a chance to a Stinger missile either.

First off the T-80 is older than the M1A2 you should be comparing the M1A1 to the T-80. Also the Russians don't have any Stinger missiles and even if they did you can avoid them by flying over 15,000 feet. The A-10 may not be able to use its GAU-8 but it could still use its AGM-65 Maverick missiles. Finally I doubt that the United States and Russia are going to be getting into a war anytime soon.

[LongWay]

Lol America start a war with russia ... yeah smart, i wouldn't wanna see thosands of dead soldiers on both sides for a stupid reason, ah the T-80UE's could destroy a M1A2 man a T-55A could destroy a M1A2 if they ambushed it it all depends on tatics and skill.

[RomanS]

Russia doesnt need Stingers,

we have our own stuff that works as good if not better.

Russia in a war with USA lol.

Depending on where they would fight, I would have to say it will never happen.

Neither US or Russia will win in a war against eachother.

[mattnwnc03]

Lol America start a war with russia ... yeah smart, i wouldn't wanna see thosands of dead soldiers on both sides for a stupid reason, ah the T-80UE's could destroy a M1A2 man a T-55A could destroy a M1A2 if they ambushed it it all depends on tatics and skill. at one time people thought is was eminent, thats why i joined the army to fight commies lol.instead i fought iraqis.

[RomanS]

Lol America start a war with russia ... yeah smart, i wouldn't wanna see thosands of dead soldiers on both sides for a stupid reason, ah the T-80UE's could destroy a M1A2 man a T-55A could destroy a M1A2 if they ambushed it it all depends on tatics and skill. at one time people thought is was eminent, thats why i joined the army to fight commies lol.instead i fought iraqis.

How is that going?

[LongWay]

I'm not much for communism but Russians can fight pretty well you seen the Spetsnaz in Action? wouldn't wanna f.uck with them :), I dunno Communism saved us in WW2 =/, Russia went into the middle east in 1979 was it? to 1989 didn't turn out so well :/ bad luck, plus the russians are fighting in chechnya 24/7 so i think they've got more things to worry about and if america invaded Russia well Russians know their weather and the americans don't check out some of the WW2 history on the russians fighting the germans.

[Ratamacue]

This article isn't about whether Russia could defeat the US. It's about which is the better overall tank, the M1 Abrams or T95.

[israeli dude]

correct me if i rung, but i thought that the Merkava Mr.4 is the bast tank is the world.

[Operation Ivy]

correct me if i rung, but i thought that the Merkava Mr.4 is the bast tank is the world.

Well seeing how your from Isreal of course ur gonna think that ;) :D

[YankeeDeVallecas]

To think an A-10 wouldn't be able to get close enough to engage any tank isn't realistic. First it woudn't engage by itself. There would be waves of SEAD and Jammers for the "Big" SAM's/AAA, not to mention either attained air superiority or at least a good running fight for it where Interceptors and Fighters would probably be concentrating on fighting each other.

Sure...there are thousands of MANPADS out there...but you know what usually defeats shoulder fired SAMS? Flares and manuevers. And fear. If your an infantry soldier the first time you fired at a couple of Warthogs you might feel excited about it. But once the wingman, or both, roll in on you for shooting at them you might not be so apt to repeat that unless you were SURE that they wouldn't see you and that your PK was high.

So yeah, A-10's would be shot down, but others would get through and perform. Doesn't matter how good of a tank you have, if an A10 rolls on you with that cannon he'll split you like a coke can.

[Helly]

Achieve air superiority first and your ground forces will win the tank battles. The best tank in the world is no match for a 500lb bomb. ;)

[mattnwnc03]

Lol America start a war with russia ... yeah smart, i wouldn't wanna see thosands of dead soldiers on both sides for a stupid reason, ah the T-80UE's could destroy a M1A2 man a T-55A could destroy a M1A2 if they ambushed it it all depends on tatics and skill. at one time people thought is was eminent, thats why i joined the army to fight commies lol.instead i fought iraqis.

How is that going?well joining in may of 1990 and by october 1990 i was having my 19th birthday on a road march in saudi arabia lol

[gilgoul]

correct me if i rung, but i thought that the Merkava Mr.4 is the bast tank is the world.

Well seeing how your from Isreal of course ur gonna think that ;) :D

Comon, I know you love the Abrams :D , but there is something with the Merkava that feels like "sturdy but clever" and definitely bad ass.
Maybe the next one with a 140mm gun will win your heart? :hug:

[Sir Zach of R.]

Why is Russia producing a bunch of weapons to defeat US/UK weapons? I thought we were allies.

BTW, M1A2 kicks assssssssssssss. Ass. :D

[GazB]

This article isn't about whether Russia could defeat the US. It's about which is the better overall tank, the M1 Abrams or T95.

And what does that really mean if it is considered by person x or organistation y to be the best? If the Abrams is the best should everyone buy it? If the T-95 is the best should everyone buy that?

Interesting that Britain continues to makes its own tanks as does Israel and Germany when the Abrams is the best. Perhaps there are other factors involved and the actual best tank is never made overseas.


To think an A-10 wouldn't be able to get close enough to engage any tank isn't realistic.

A conflict involving T-95s would involve the Russian Army of the near future. I doubt they will even deploy A-10s for that war. If they won't risk ground forces to Kosovo I'd kinda think deploying forces in Russia would be even less likely. If they did the Russians and Soviets built more SAMs during the cold war than the rest of the world put together. This means that they not only have plenty of capable types but they also have the numbers in service and the training to use them in a layered structure organised way.

No The A-10 would not get to use its cannon.


Sure...there are thousands of MANPADS out there...but you know what usually defeats shoulder fired SAMS? Flares and manuevers.

Flares defeat Grails... not Iglas.


But once the wingman, or both, roll in on you for shooting at them you might not be so apt to repeat that unless you were SURE that they wouldn't see you and that your PK was high.

When every BMP-2 has a gripstock and 3-4 missiles for an Igla I think Warthogs will be in very short supply very quickly. Not to mention Tors, Tunguska's and the other airdefence equipment the Ru Army has with it.


Why is Russia producing a bunch of weapons to defeat US/UK weapons? I thought we were allies.

They are producing weapons because that is all they can sell. BTW when the West stops building weapons perhaps the Russians will too.

Personally I can't really decide which tank I like the best. Black Eagle and T-95 are dark and mysterious, but Challanger 2 and Leclerc are both very impressive. The Leopard II is very impressive as well.

[israeli dude]

correct me if i rung, but i thought that the Merkava Mr.4 is the bast tank is the world.

Well seeing how your from Isreal of course ur gonna think that ;) :D

I'm not saing that because i'm from israel, im saying it because i checkd it.
the merkava is a new tank comper to(look correct me if i rung) the M1A2 who is jest an update of the M1A1, a tank from the let 80th. and the Merkava Mr 4 is not even in active duty yet( i think),his crews event finish there trainin yet.

[UoUo]

correct me if i rung, but i thought that the Merkava Mr.4 is the bast tank is the world.

Well seeing how your from Isreal of course ur gonna think that ;) :D

I'm not saing that because i'm from israel, im saying it because i checkd it.
the merkava is a new tank comper to(look correct me if i rung) the M1A2 who is jest an update of the M1A1, a tank from the let 80th. and the Merkava Mr 4 is not even in active duty yet( i think),his crews event finish there trainin yet.

You are new here :D Don't start the flame war...

אחי ..אנשים פה די מטורפים :D
חבל שנתחיל בנושא שלא נצא ממנו :D

[israeli dude]

correct me if i rung, but i thought that the Merkava Mr.4 is the bast tank is the world.

Well seeing how your from Isreal of course ur gonna think that ;) :D

I'm not saing that because i'm from israel, im saying it because i checkd it.
the merkava is a new tank comper to(look correct me if i rung) the M1A2 who is jest an update of the M1A1, a tank from the let 80th. and the Merkava Mr 4 is not even in active duty yet( i think),his crews event finish there trainin yet.

You are new here :D Don't start the flame war...

אחי ..אנשים פה די מטורפים :D
חבל שנתחיל בנושא שלא נצא ממנו :D

אתה רציני אנשים פה מתעצבנים רק על זה שרשמתי שהמרכבה יותר טוב???

[Durandal]

Its all about JSTARs man.

Edit: Some of you folks need to get your head out of your ass. A) Arguing over which tank is better is pure folly. B) You need to pick one that actually runs and has fought in combat REPEATEDLY as opposed to some design that is not even in mass production yet.

[-Archon-]

*off topic*

originally posted by GazB
Flares defeat Grails... not Iglas.

I think that is a generalization. As far as I remember Igla is a passive IR missile, so It too will be defeated by flares, even though the improved seeker will not be tricked that easily. The range is compareable with Stinger so any stand off weapons used will probably defeat it. It will come down to what Durandal said: JSTARS.

Sitting in a tank or in a APC I wouldn't bet my life on any passive IR missile when there is hostile CAS in the area.

When the topic aircraft vs. modern air defenses come up I think of GW 1. The estimate was hundreds of downed aircraft due to the impressive iraqi air defense with advanced missiles. Did we see that?

[Macs.]

Leo kicks all asses.

[UoUo]

correct me if i rung, but i thought that the Merkava Mr.4 is the bast tank is the world.

Well seeing how your from Isreal of course ur gonna think that ;) :D

I'm not saing that because i'm from israel, im saying it because i checkd it.
the merkava is a new tank comper to(look correct me if i rung) the M1A2 who is jest an update of the M1A1, a tank from the let 80th. and the Merkava Mr 4 is not even in active duty yet( i think),his crews event finish there trainin yet.

You are new here :D Don't start the flame war...

אחי ..אנשים פה די מטורפים :D
חבל שנתחיל בנושא שלא נצא ממנו :D

אתה רציני אנשים פה מתעצבנים רק על זה שרשמתי שהמרכבה יותר טוב???

ועוד איך אחי..כל דבר קטן פה ניכנס למלחמת הצפות....
פשוט לא נצא מזה וזה סתם יעצבן את כולם :)

מספיק שתסתכל בפורום תמונות פה ובפורום ראשי ותראה מה הולך שם.....
בכל מקרה..תעשה מה שבראש שלך...פשוט עדיף שלא :)

[Kitsune]

You're right, Macs, but psssss...

[UoUo]

You're right, Macs, but psssss...

:lol:

[KalleBalleSvartSk@lle]

*off topic*

originally posted by GazB
Flares defeat Grails... not Iglas.

I think that is a generalization. As far as I remember Igla is a passive IR missile, so It too will be defeated by flares, even though the improved seeker will not be tricked that easily. The range is compareable with Stinger so any stand off weapons used will probably defeat it. It will come down to what Durandal said: JSTARS.

Sitting in a tank or in a APC I wouldn't bet my life on any passive IR missile when there is hostile CAS in the area.

When the topic aircraft vs. modern air defenses come up I think of GW 1. The estimate was hundreds of downed aircraft due to the impressive iraqi air defense with advanced missiles. Did we see that?

The Iragi airdefences wasn't really the worlds best, and if the estimates were that high, the coalition wold never have attacked.
I belive the CAS wouldn't bet their life on flares when there are AAA in the area.
STUGs still rule the world...

[YankeeDeVallecas]

[Off-topic]

A10's would fly. Can't possibly think they wouldn't, even against huge odds their crews are professionals and would do what needs doing. Yeah, some IR missiles have IRCCM and aren't tricked as easily with flares. But then you have Directed Infared Counter Measures that have already been fielded by USAF and others (RAF and IAF I believe) that perform pretty well against any IR missle.

My point is that while Russia has a crap load of SAM's/AAA, that are pretty good, saying that A10's couldn't get close is not a valid statement. Some wouldn't, some would.

There is so many factors to take into account....training, battery life of missles, maintenance, weather, CAS, SEAD, JSTARS, Intel, current and future ECM, IRCCM, DIRCM, towed decoy, it goes on and on. The A-10 is not obsolete nor will it be for awhile. Hopefully they won't let the CJ's take it's mission for a long time to come.

[\Off-Topic]

[Kampfbaer]

IMHO it is not possible to say which tank is the best. Unit composition, tactics, logistics, intelligence, there are many things that will have an influence how a tank battle will go.

Although there are quite a number of tanks that play in the Major League (list is certainly not complete), M1A2, Leo 2 A5 and A6, Challenger2, Leclerc, Merkava 4, probably T80 and T 90 variants........

Most western MBTs share the same technology to a certain extent (e.g. fire control gear, similar guns and the like).

[Operation Ivy]

Macs and Kitsune dont know what there talkin about they are liars :D

and to Mr.Isreali dude not trying to be mean but how can the Merk4 be so good if it hasnt been produced/ used yet? :D (not trying to sound like an ass)


IMHO it is not possible to say which tank is the best. Unit composition, tactics, logistics, intelligence, there are many things that will have an influence how a tank battle will go

Correct, just forgot crew ;) :D

[Durandal]

Although there are quite a number of tanks that play in the Major League (list is certainly not complete), M1A2, Leo 2 A5 and A6, Challenger2, Leclerc, Merkava 4, probably T80 and T 90 variants....

He said Leclerc...

rofl

[Durandal]

[Off-topic]

A10's would fly. Can't possibly think they wouldn't, even against huge odds their crews are professionals and would do what needs doing.

The A-10 is not obsolete nor will it be for awhile. Hopefully they won't let the CJ's take it's mission for a long time to come.

[/Off-Topic]

Hate to break it to ya, but if we went toe to toe with the Russian for some horribly unforeseen reason, throwing the A-10 into the front lines doing CAS would get it smeared.

Gulf War I already proved that the A-10...and other aircraft providing a similar role, like the Tornado...take heavy casualties to shoulder launched stuff. It would have a great role as a guided munition platform, but I shudder to think what cost those A-10 pilots would pay trying to get into its primary role...

Like it or not, history has proven this to be the case and the Russians are most certainly NOT Iraq.

[Ratamacue]

[Off-topic]

A10's would fly. Can't possibly think they wouldn't, even against huge odds their crews are professionals and would do what needs doing.

The A-10 is not obsolete nor will it be for awhile. Hopefully they won't let the CJ's take it's mission for a long time to come.

[/Off-Topic]

Hate to break it to ya, but if we went toe to toe with the Russian for some horribly unforeseen reason, throwing the A-10 into the front lines doing CAS would get it smeared.

Gulf War I already proved that the A-10...and other aircraft providing a similar role, like the Tornado...take heavy casualties to shoulder launched stuff. It would have a great role as a guided munition platform, but I shudder to think what cost those A-10 pilots would pay trying to get into its primary role...

Like it or not, history has proven this to be the case and the Russians are most certainly NOT Iraq.
You do realize that during the ground offensive in Iraq in 1991, Apaches and Cobras were used extremely successfully for CAS? With that said, very true, Russia is definitely a wee-bit better equipped in terms of firepower than Iraq was.

[Durandal]

You do realize that during the ground offensive in Iraq in 1991, Apaches and Cobras were used extremely successfully for CAS? With that said, very true, Russia is definitely a wee-bit better equipped in terms of firepower than Iraq was.

Yeah, true, but the last time I checked, the A-10 could not hide behind a ridge line hovering in place.

Go read up on how the choppers were used, what the loss rate was of Tornados and A-10s when they were used for low level strikes compared and why Both the British and American Air Forces changed tactics and turned them into guided munition platforms (if I recall correctly...probably not...the Jaguar was usually the designation platform for the Tornado...I forget).

[Michael RVR]

They definitly did that with the tornado's, not too sure about the A-10's though.

The A-10 is not the be-all and end-all of weapon platforms. They're good, can take heaps of damage as well as dish it out, but they cant do anything.

As durandal said, they'd get smeared, SEAD/JSTARS or whatever. I dont know about using the iraqi's as a valid means test either. If in the situation that somehow the US & Russia got into a war, and at this time i dont see how, i dont think it'd be as easy as Iraq was / is / has been.

My vote goes to the Merk 4. woot :P

[UoUo]

BTW : people seem to forget the Merkava 3 that is also 1 of the best in The World. (particular "Baz" type).


http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/tanks/merkava/merkava3d_4.jpg

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/tanks/merkava/merkava3d_2.jpg

woot (Merkava 3d in the pics).

[UoUo]

Macs and Kitsune dont know what there talkin about they are liars :D

and to Mr.Isreali dude not trying to be mean but how can the Merk4 be so good if it hasnt been produced/ used yet? :D (not trying to sound like an ass)


IMHO it is not possible to say which tank is the best. Unit composition, tactics, logistics, intelligence, there are many things that will have an influence how a tank battle will go

Correct, just forgot crew ;) :D

The Merkava4 is already produced..many not used multiply..but we have Some of them in active service.

And we started to train the new crews for our tanks. woot

[Abbyy]

i doubt they will have the funds to build the thing, their selling off everything thats not tied down

Tank is in active development. It will be rolled out somewhere around 2006. Money for development earned by sales of tanks to India, China and so on.

But it is still questioned will it be put into mass production or only limited amount will be produced.

As for technical comparison i recomend you to wait of official presentation because now there is no any reliable information about what T-95 will be.

[ArtofPain]

First off the T-80 is older than the M1A2 you should be comparing the M1A1 to the T-80. Also the Russians don't have any Stinger missiles and even if they did you can avoid them by flying over 15,000 feet.
Sorry man did you ever hear about "Igla" or "Strela" missiles? And Russian Armoured Division had Much More AAM and AAG than American one. It's not the Iraq or Jugoslavia.

[gilgoul]

correct me if i rung, but i thought that the Merkava Mr.4 is the bast tank is the world.

Well seeing how your from Isreal of course ur gonna think that ;) :D

I'm not saing that because i'm from israel, im saying it because i checkd it.
the merkava is a new tank comper to(look correct me if i rung) the M1A2 who is jest an update of the M1A1, a tank from the let 80th. and the Merkava Mr 4 is not even in active duty yet( i think),his crews event finish there trainin yet.

You are new here :D Don't start the flame war...

אחי ..אנשים פה די מטורפים :D
חבל שנתחיל בנושא שלא נצא ממנו :D

אתה רציני אנשים פה מתעצבנים רק על זה שרשמתי שהמרכבה יותר טוב???

זה קרה כבר ותסלח ה שגיות אני אדיין לא שולת ב ספה ;)

[GazB]

I think that is a generalization. As far as I remember Igla is a passive IR missile, so It too will be defeated by flares, even though the improved seeker will not be tricked that easily.

It is a generalisation but in this case it holds. There are pretty much three generations of IR seeker... the first... namely Grail, and Redeye were tail chasers. They saw hotspots and would lock onto the hottest thing they could see. They needed to see the tail on view of a jet engine to get a good lock and especially at low level things like reflections of sunlight on canopies or water or the sun itself or even sun heated rocks could distract the missile. This was because the early versions of the missiles tracked the hottest thing they could see so the obvious CM of Flares worked very well as they were very very hot. The seeker developers adapted by being able to set the seekers to the second or third hottest thing it could see and the flare makers responded by creating flares of many different intensities. The second generation of IR seeker is fully cooled and much more sensitive. Often they would use two colours... ie near Red and near Violet... ie IR and UV. An object emitting IR radiation but not emitting UV radiation was an aircraft if it was in the sky. The seekers are so sensitive they can be locked on parts of the aircraft that aren't even hot like the nose or leading edge of the wing. Flares are much less effective against these missiles and must be launched in very large numbers to create a pattern that might confuse the missile. With every BMP-2 with MANPADS the USAF will run out of planes before the Russians run out of missiles.

(The second gen missiles include Mistral, Stinger, Igla.)

The Third gen IR missiles use imaging IR and the user can target parts of the aircraft like the canopy or wingroot. The onyl defence likely to be effective is active IR laser to burn out the seeker. Weapons that use such homing systems are AIM-9X and R-74 as well as R-77T.


The range is compareable with Stinger so any stand off weapons used will probably defeat it. It will come down to what Durandal said: JSTARS.


Umm we are not talking about the Serbs or Iraqis here... this is the first team. The JSTARs will be jammed and attacked.
Igla is only the MANPADS missile used in the RuArmy. There is Tor, Tunguska, and Buk. (SA-15, SA-19, SA-17). And that is not even allowing for their airforce or higher level SAMs.


Sitting in a tank or in a APC I wouldn't bet my life on any passive IR missile when there is hostile CAS in the area.

I would. In Kosovo the threat of MANPADs including Igla led to no CAS being used and other aircraft flying at over 20,000ft.


The estimate was hundreds of downed aircraft due to the impressive iraqi air defense with advanced missiles. Did we see that?

Hahaha... impressive Iraqi airdefence with advanced missiles? SA-2s and SA-6s were already well compromised as were the other weapons they used. The MANPADs they did have were quite effective.. and the Shilka probably claimed many of the Tornados lost.


Can't possibly think they wouldn't, even against huge odds their crews are professionals and would do what needs doing.

That decison is unlikely to be made at pilot level.


You do realize that during the ground offensive in Iraq in 1991, Apaches and Cobras were used extremely successfully for CAS?

Don't get me wrong... in the right fight against the right opposition the Longbow Apache is one of my fav aircraft... and I think the A-10 is also excellent in its role too. But against a sophisticated enemy with a fully integrated AD network you use stealth bombers and F-22s... and even these might have problems against S-400s and Pantsirs.


But it is still questioned will it be put into mass production or only limited amount will be produced.

As for technical comparison i recomend you to wait of official presentation because now there is no any reliable information about what T-95 will be.

The Russians have a very good tradition of upgrading older technology with features of their new designs. The T-55M with a turret bustle autoloader based on that used on the Black Eagle is a good example of this.

[UoUo]

correct me if i rung, but i thought that the Merkava Mr.4 is the bast tank is the world.

Well seeing how your from Isreal of course ur gonna think that ;) :D

I'm not saing that because i'm from israel, im saying it because i checkd it.
the merkava is a new tank comper to(look correct me if i rung) the M1A2 who is jest an update of the M1A1, a tank from the let 80th. and the Merkava Mr 4 is not even in active duty yet( i think),his crews event finish there trainin yet.

You are new here :D Don't start the flame war...

אחי ..אנשים פה די מטורפים :D
חבל שנתחיל בנושא שלא נצא ממנו :D

אתה רציני אנשים פה מתעצבנים רק על זה שרשמתי שהמרכבה יותר טוב???

זה קרה כבר ותסלח ה שגיות אני אדיין לא שולת ב ספה ;)

:D

פצצה...למי אכפת מהשגיאות שלך אחי..העיקר שאתה מדבר עברית

[gilgoul]

correct me if i rung, but i thought that the Merkava Mr.4 is the bast tank is the world.

Well seeing how your from Isreal of course ur gonna think that ;) :D

I'm not saing that because i'm from israel, im saying it because i checkd it.
the merkava is a new tank comper to(look correct me if i rung) the M1A2 who is jest an update of the M1A1, a tank from the let 80th. and the Merkava Mr 4 is not even in active duty yet( i think),his crews event finish there trainin yet.

You are new here :D Don't start the flame war...

אחי ..אנשים פה די מטורפים :D
חבל שנתחיל בנושא שלא נצא ממנו :D

אתה רציני אנשים פה מתעצבנים רק על זה שרשמתי שהמרכבה יותר טוב???

זה קרה כבר ותסלח ה שגיות אני אדיין לא שולת ב ספה ;)

:D

פצצה...למי אכפת מהשגיאות שלך אחי..העיקר שאתה מדבר עברית

אני משתדל :oops:

[Mongrel]

Speak English or take it to private e-mail! :slap:
I'm getting tired of seeing this: "??????????? ???????????? ??????????? ?????????? ????????"

Cheers!
M.

[UoUo]

Speak English or take it to private e-mail! :slap:
I'm getting tired of seeing this: "??????????? ???????????? ??????????? ?????????? ????????"

Cheers!
M.

Soory...i will try no to do this again... :hug:

[Mongrel]

I'm just jealous*that my 'puter isn't set up for your alphabet.
:D :hug:

Cheers!
M.

[UoUo]

:D

[UoUo]

BTW: you know you can fix the "???????????????? ??????? ?????" :D

Go 2" My computer" then "control panel" then "Date, Time, Language, and Regional Options" then "Regional and Language Options"

Then you have a new window...and you go 2 "adavance" and below you have little boxex with mark on them...you just mark all the boxex with "hebrew" next to them....it may be work. :D

[Abolith]

BTW: you know you can fix the "???????????????? ??????? ?????" :D

Go 2" My computer" then "control panel" then "Date, Time, Language, and Regional Options" then "Regional and Language Options"

Then you have a new window...and you go 2 "adavance" and below you have little boxex with mark on them...you just mark all the boxex with "hebrew" next to them....it may be work. :D

Crap man thats alot of work.. I just download mozilla and install. all Langs show up just fine. Hebrew, Japanese, Arabic. i can see em` all....not that I can READ any of em`, But I can SEE them! I don't hink i have ever seen the "??????? ??????????? ???" thing before.

[Durandal]

I am on a Mac running OSX10.3 I see all...

MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH...

erm.

[Mongrel]

I'm on a imac running OS 9.2 so no Hebrew for me.

Cheers!
M.

[Macs.]

I am on a Mac running OSX10.3 I see all...

MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH...

erm.

I feel sorry for you. :petting:

[Durandal]

I feel sorry for you. :petting:

No need to feel sorry...

Flat Screen...Super Drive DVD burner...PHAT set up that allows me to burn edit and create all the films I want...combined with a digital camera and iDisk...look out...one stop shopping.

:)

[Mongrel]

Further off topic...
Macs rule!

Cheers!
M. :D

[Macs.]

Further off topic...
Macs rule!

Cheers!
M. :D

Thats true.

muahahahahahahah

[2RHPZ]

Some opinions on russian tanks (stolen - as usualy :) from another forum):


Kontakt-5 Heavy ERA,Used by T-90S

The development of Kontakt EDZ logically led to the development of a later version, called Kontakt-5, which was optimized to be effective not only against HEAT jets, but also APFSDS long rods. It was first deployed around 1985 on the first T-80Us. It is claimed that Kontakt-5 provides about 300 mm RHA equivalent of additional protection against APFSDS rounds, which corresponds to an increase of about 160% over the base armour of the T-80U (~720 mm total).

We've done a lot of work to analyze how effective Kontakt-5 is and by what methods it defeats the incoming APFSDS rounds. The results of the analysis are quite impressive in their own rough and limited way. We assumed that the Kontakt-5 brick was 10.5 cm wide by 23.0 cm long by 7.0 cm thick, with a mass of 10.35 kg. We arrived at a total mass of 2.8 t for the array. We later found out from Steven Zagola's literature that the array is supposed to be around three tonnes, so we were pretty happy. Assuming the use of Semtex for the interlayer, I found that the configuration was most likely a 15 mm plate up front, backed by 35 mm of explosive, and then a 20 mm plate. This assymetrical configuration had improved effectiveness because the APFSDS rod could still 'catch' the retreating rear plate while the front plate would retain a charateristic high velocity. This is completely opposite to the model that the US Army used in the late 1980s to discribe 'heavy' ERA. In their model, the front plate was on the order of 60 mm thick and the rear a standard 5 mm plate. They thought that the thick plate simply moved up into the path of the incoming long rod and forced it to make a 'slot' (thickness x height) rather than a hole (thickness). This is bogus; the front plate would tamp the explosive and would be barely set in motion.

Anyway, back to the point. Without getting into the actual math, after a couple of analyses, we arrived at our conclusion as to what defeat mechanisms were being imployed. These conclusions have not yet been conclusively proved and we hope to do that soon. We assumed that the massive areal density of the long rod perforated the thin plates with relative ease. Actual ablatic penetrator mass loss was set at about 2%. What we found was that we had these two plates, each individually with about 60% the momentum of the long rod penetrator, were moving oppositely up/down to each other, and that the path of the penetrator was such that it was moving between them. The forces exerted on the penetrator are apparently very large, so large in fact that they were in the region of plastic failure for most (read: all) metals. Essentially, when the penetrator touches the rear plate, the front plate guillotines off the first 5 - 6 cm of the rod. For a round such as the 120 mm M829A1 this represents a loss of about 8% of the total mass. More importantly, the nose is blunted. You would not believe how important that sharp point on the penetrator is. The difference in penetration between an equivalent hyper-sonic spike tipped penetrator and a blunt nose one is at least 20% (to a maximum of around 30%). This is mainly because a blunt nose is very inefficient in the initial phase of penetration before the ablatic shear phase can begin. The penetrator has to actually sharpen itself to the optimum Von Karam plastic wave theory shape for penetration of the target material before it can begin radially displacing the target material. This resolves itself in the form of a lot of wasted work and thus penetrator mass. The blunted penetrator also suffers structural damage and more mass loss as a shock wave travels down its length and blows spall off the tail. The main secondary effect of Kontakt-5 EDZ against APFSDS rounds is yaw induced by the front plate before contact with the rear plate is established. The total is about two to three degrees of yaw, which suddenly becomes a lot more in a denser material such as steel. Reduction in penetration due to a 2° yaw is about 6% and it grows exponentially worse from there, and on the 67° slope of the front glacis of the T-64/72/80/90, this is increased to about 15%.

Total loss in penetration amounts to about 2% + 8% + 22% + 6% = 38%, or in other words the penetrator is now only capable of penetrating 62% its original potential. Conversely we could say that the base armour is increased by the factor of the reciprocal of 62%, which is - surprise! - 161%.

Jane's International Defence Review 7/1997, pg. 15:
"IMPENETRABLE RUSSIAN TANK ARMOUR STANDS UP TO EXAMINATION
"Claims that the armour of Russian tanks is effectively impenetrable, made on the basis of test carried out in Germany (see IDR 7/1996, p.15), have been supported by comments made following tests in the US.
"Speaking at a conference on Future Armoured Warfare in London in May, IDR's Pentagon correspondent Leland Ness explained that US tests involved firing trials of Russian-built T-72 tanks fitted with Kontakt-5 explosive reactive armour (ERA). In contrast to the original, or 'light', type of ERA which is effective only against shaped charge jets, the 'heavy' Kontakt-5 ERA is also effective against the long-rod penetrators of APFSDS tank gun projectiles.
"When fitted to T-72 tanks, the 'heavy' ERA made them immune to the DU penetrators of M829 APFSDS, fired by the 120 mm guns of the US M1 Abrams tanks, which are among the most formidable of current tank gun projectiles.


It seems that the kinetic energy of the penetrator is enough to start the explosion of the explosive material that fills the Kontakt-5 ERA block (like in the previous "small" ERA the shaped charge explosion energy was to initiate the explosion of explosives that hampered the stream of plasma used by HEAT round to break through the armor) - so if I understood correctly, as there are three armor plates in Kontakt-5, the first one is to protect the explosive from too early explosion (like from small calibre ammo), the third one(back) is to create the reverse shock wave that bounces off towards the penetrator, and the mid-plate (second one) is the real obstacle on the penetrator's way. Is that right? So, there's something like a "moving armor" - like in the middle ages when fighting with sword/axe and shield, you used the shield in fact not to defend in passive way but rather to catch enemy's strike and move it off its destined way so it did not hit you, swinging on the shield's plate instead of cutting through it. Well, the idea seems quite reasonable. Yet - I'm afraid I did not understand fully - the US made "live" tests on the real Kontakt-5 armor? If so, where did they get it from?
Anyway, such info is something I like - just report and facts; if they are correct it would mean that Russian tanks are equal to US in armor protection and may result in both sides watching their projectiles bouncing off their opponents...
Yet Kontakt-5 has one main drawback: the panels are large, so after two-three hits quite large area of the armor is without protection, so another projectile hitting the same area may be able to penetrate the armor with full ability. So the Kontakt-5 may be not enough against US tanks: imagine two tanks, firing each other at the front; first two shots bounce off; the second - too, third - the same; yet the fourth Russian shot hits Abrams and bounces off, yet the US shot has about 30 % (or so) chance of hitting the area whose additional Kontakt protection had been lost as used against previous projectiles. If so, the "silver bullet" penetrates the armor and causes beautiful explosion of fuel and ammo stored inside Russian tank.
Anyway, Kontakt may increase the survivabilty of the Russian tank, especially against old types of projectiles and smaller calibres.

[2RHPZ]

Another contribution to the M-84 (Yugoslavian version of T-72):


The problem is that there are some tanks better than M-84, especially in the Fire Control System employed. That's now the most important part of the tank. If you can see the enemy from a greater distance than he can, and you can shoot at greater distances, you win.” - Of course that there are some better tanks than M84. Of course that some tanks have better fire control system – but there are no perfect tanks and I don’t agree that FCS is the most important part of the modern tanks. It is combination of different things that modern warfare needs. Does better FCS makes so much difference? You see, Abrams can also be seen at great distances and you didn’t said what size of target on what distance Abrams can shoot – what is % ? M84 has much lower profile and for 35% smaller size (m2) on front armor, and for 45% smaller turret. Not to mention smoke that crew can use (150m x 100m, for 4-5 min.) , so it is not video game: shoot-win! “Now the M-84, due to embargo restrictions, has rather inferior FCS, based basically on old US M-60 FCS, with limited night-fighting capabilities.” - As I know M84 is modified T72 (like engine and armor) with some Yugoslav designed subsystems, for example – FCS. Where did you find that information about “old M60 FCS”? What Abrams has (on FCS), that M84 doesn’t have? What “limited night-fighting capabilities” ? “The second problem is armor(crew protection) - which makes well-armored vehicle much heavier. Abrams, weighting about 60 tones, is probably the best armored vehicle, at most angles (with additional armor-net at the engine exhaust that proved to be most vulnerable part of the tank, as shown in Iraq recently.” - Yes, best armored, but also is the biggest target on battlefield, isn’t it? And with the small mobility… About Iraq, we haven’t seen anything, except US arrogance! “In Abrams very important is also ammo stowage - away from the crew, with light plates on the top to enable the ammo explosion to go up, not into the crew compartment - as opposite to T-72/M-84, where if the armor is penetrated, ammo goes off at once, killing the crew.” - Yes, that is most vulnerable part of M84 design.
“And about the crew - if M-84's crews were training about 300-500 hours in their tanks, for 5 years around (as do US proffessional crews), they could have thought about fighting Abrams, but not before.” - We do not think how strong is invader when we fight to defend our country! 78 days, 24 hour bombing, and how many tanks nato destroyed in 1999 ? Not more than 5or 6. I think that says enough about M84 crews professionalism. However, I spoke with them, and I can tell you that they were more than prepared to meet Abrams tanks; but that is another story… “Pleas note that the skills make tank crew really dangerous.” - Agree! Your best sentence. Here are some good pictures (and destroyed M84 J) : http://stef124.tripod.com/m84.htm . “The problem is that you have to get very close to Abrams to kill it, and today there are quite few tanks probably capable of killing it from long distance...” - So, if I am in desert, in old soviet tank, and Iraqe, with nato freely flying above my head, I would be afraid – since I am not, I know that it is not easy to hit ANY tank (with good crew) at long distances. Please, don’t compare Iraq with Grozny (or Balkan). We haven’t seen Abrams in some true battles (like Grozny, or on Balkan) against modern tanks and good crews. What about minuses, like high fuel consumption, small mobility, high profile, big weight and so on.
”Sorry, Djordjije, but if fighting against Abrams, I wouldn't like to be in M-84...” - I wouldn’t like to be in any tank (I don’t like tanks), but don’t bet so easily on Abrams… you know, there is 125mm sub-caliber shell with Vo=1800m/s, and Russian BM-27 ammo – that were kept specially for Abrams!


If you can see the enemy from a greater distance than he can, and you can shoot at greater distances, you win. Now the M-84, due to embargo restrictions, has rather inferior FCS, based basically on old US M-60 FCS, with limited night-fighting capabilities. The second problem is armor(crew protection) - which makes well-armorerd vehicle much heavier. Abrams, weighting about 60 tonnes, is probably the best armored vehicle, at most angles (with additional armor-net at the engine exhaust that proved to be most vulnerable part of the tank, as shown in Iraq recently. In Abrams very important is also ammo stowage - away from the crew, with light plates on the top to enable the ammo explosion to go up, not into the crew compartment - as opposite to T-72/M-84, where if the armor is penetrated, ammo goes off at once, killing the crew. In Iraq lastly the US lost a few tanks (less than 10, AFAIR), and their crews escaped succesfully, except one tank which had sunk in a salt marsh aa the tank felt down from the assault bridge... About the armor we may say that also Leo 2A5/A6 or Challenger 2 or Leclerc may be equally armored, but definitely none tank lighter about 20 tonnes and smaller than Abrams may be better armored - no way! In Poland we have designed our own derivative of T-72 - the PT-91 Twardy ("Hard") which has recently won the Malaysian tank competition and was ordered there, beating also T-90 and T-84. We have mostly improved the mobility (with giving the 1000 HP engine) and FCS (French SAVAN system), improving the armor by addidn about 1,5-2 tonnes of reactive armor. I may agree that in some cases the Western "armored beasts" are not very suitable (like Malaysia), where the infrastructure (roads, bridges etc.) is too weak to bear these tanks' weight, and the off-road grounds may be not hard enough to bear them; so, lighter tanks can be sold and used there - that's why our tanks could win the competition as the Abrams/Challenger/Leo 2/Leclerc were not taking part in the competition.
About DU - Abrams also has got a DU armor on the hull and turret, giving it roughly 1000-1200 mm of RHA equivalent, to be not penetrated by any known projectile. It's well known that one Challenger mistakenly shot another one, penetrating the armor and killing two crewmembers, but the other two survived. I doubt if anyone could get out from M-84 if hit by such projectile that immediately sets fire on ammo stowed directly under the crew's feet... The ammo is the least important part to be improved, as now you can buy a lot of modern stuff around, like in Poland, where we produce quite good 125mm APFSDS ammo, with use of Israeli-produced tungsten penetrators. With quite good FCS of PT-91 it is able to hit most of modern tanks, especialy Russian, and probably many Western (though I'm not sure if it can penetrate Abrams' armor yet...) And about the crew - if M-84's crews were training about 300-500 hours in their tanks, for 5 years around (as do US proffessional crews), they could have thought about fighting Abrams, but not before. Even in Poland, with draft being still the basis of the army, we introduced wide-scale program of proffesional NCOs as crew commanders and at least volunteer long-term service soldiers as the gunners for our tanks; (well, we also have bought ~100 Leo 2A4s...). Pleas note that the skills make tank crew really dangerous. From history: German tank crews were for all the war better trained and experienced than Allied/Soviet counterparts, thus resulting sometimes (like in Carpathians in early 1944) scores of over 200 Soviet tanks destroyed against some 10 German... of course Allies /Soviets had greater abilities to fill the losses, but the losses to kills ratio was always in favor to Germans (they lost the war for many more reasons, though...). And yet about Abrams: please note, that it was designed not to fight on Arabian desert plains, but to fight in Europe, filled vith villages, rivers, hills and sometimes woods, against masses of Soviet tanks... The problem is that you have to get very close to Abrams to kill it, and today there are quite few tanks probably capable of killing it from long distance... Note that most Abrams tanks were destroyed by RPGs fired from close distance, mostly at the rear part engine/ammo store, but not killing their crews! The M-84, being just a little modernised T-72 would rather look like T-72/T-80 in Grozny, if put in such conditions... ANd against T-72 there are also other tanks good enough, like Merkava (Merkava 2 was destroying Syrian T-72s in Lebanon quite good, when newer versions of T-72 appeared the Merkava 3 was designed to counter them... yet Merkava is better than Abrams in crew protection - for known reasons - not in mobility, yet has similar FCS capabilities). So IMHO, if there may be some tanks better than Abrams, the M-84 definitely is not one of them.
Sorry, Djordjije, but if fighting against Abrams, I wouldn't like to be in M-84...

[Chuck.]

like someone else said on this topic :

Its not the tank, its te crew who does it !
If you have a good crew then a Leo 1A5 can destroy a abrams 1A2 !
Thats all ! ;)

[aartamen]

Some people in Russia still have illusions of grandeur. These people are either insane or have not served in their own armed forces, yet or at all. Russian military is totally not-combat ready today. Totally . . . like a bunch of 5-year olds would whip them. And there's no indication that they will ever become. People do not know their jobs, have no training, unmotivated and are loking for any chance to steal some ammo and sell to a Chechen. This is the worst it's been since the beginning of WWII when some three million Russians surrendered to the Germans, b/c they did not feel like fighting for Stalin. Putin is no Stalin, but if Russia was attacked by a massive modern army (Chinese, for instance) we would see mass desertions/surrenders and complete lack of ability and desire to fight, so aptly demonstrated for 10 years now in Caucasus. Draft-dodging is the Russian national sport, for crying out-loud. The only people who know how to fire a MANPAD in Russia yell "Allahu Akbar", just prior.

[FDF_Hemppis]

Some people in Russia still have illusions of grandeur. These people are either insane or have not served in their own armed forces, yet or at all. Russian military is totally not-combat ready today. Totally . . . like a bunch of 5-year olds would whip them. And there's no indication that they will ever become. People do not know their jobs, have no training, unmotivated and are loking for any chance to steal some ammo and sell to a Chechen. This is the worst it's been since the beginning of WWII when some three million Russians surrendered to the Germans, b/c they did not feel like fighting for Stalin. Putin is no Stalin, but if Russia was attacked by a massive modern army (Chinese, for instance) we would see mass desertions/surrenders and complete lack of ability and desire to fight, so aptly demonstrated for 10 years now in Caucasus. Draft-dodging is the Russian national sport, for crying out-loud. The only people who know how to fire a MANPAD in Russia yell "Allahu Akbar", just prior.

Are you serious? I'd imagine that out of the some X million soldiers serving in the Russian army, a few know how to do their jobs? (i.e. fire a AA-missile...)

Russian army is propably nowhere near the strenght it was during the Soviet-era, but still one might think that the huge amounts of equipment and trained soldiers didn't all disappear, did they?

[Shadow NX]

Some people in Russia still have illusions of grandeur. These people are either insane or have not served in their own armed forces, yet or at all. Russian military is totally not-combat ready today. Totally . . . like a bunch of 5-year olds would whip them. And there's no indication that they will ever become. People do not know their jobs, have no training, unmotivated and are loking for any chance to steal some ammo and sell to a Chechen. This is the worst it's been since the beginning of WWII when some three million Russians surrendered to the Germans, b/c they did not feel like fighting for Stalin. Putin is no Stalin, but if Russia was attacked by a massive modern army (Chinese, for instance) we would see mass desertions/surrenders and complete lack of ability and desire to fight, so aptly demonstrated for 10 years now in Caucasus. Draft-dodging is the Russian national sport, for crying out-loud. The only people who know how to fire a MANPAD in Russia yell "Allahu Akbar", just prior.

You possibly read to many bad internet pages...

A few things are true, but the situation in Chechnya has changed a lot, better gear, better training, higher morale

It seems like you taken all the storys of things gone wrong long ago because of bad planning and form your own ideas only from these sources... :|

[ArtofPain]

Some people in Russia still have illusions of grandeur. These people are either insane or have not served in their own armed forces, yet or at all. Russian military is totally not-combat ready today. Totally . . . like a bunch of 5-year olds would whip them. And there's no indication that they will ever become. People do not know their jobs, have no training, unmotivated and are loking for any chance to steal some ammo and sell to a Chechen. This is the worst it's been since the beginning of WWII when some three million Russians surrendered to the Germans, b/c they did not feel like fighting for Stalin. Putin is no Stalin, but if Russia was attacked by a massive modern army (Chinese, for instance) we would see mass desertions/surrenders and complete lack of ability and desire to fight, so aptly demonstrated for 10 years now in Caucasus. Draft-dodging is the Russian national sport, for crying out-loud. The only people who know how to fire a MANPAD in Russia yell "Allahu Akbar", just prior.
You were there? I was. So what now?

[GazB]

Hmmm, I believe Hitler had a similar opinion of the Soviet Army too... what saved them then? Spam? Crappy old Stuarts?


Its not the tank, its te crew who does it !
If you have a good crew then a Leo 1A5 can destroy a abrams 1A2 !
Thats all !

No tank operates alone. The armed forces is a team and that team does not just consist of tanks and soldiers. For every guy at the front there are hundreds behind either working to supply him with food, ammo, fuel, or maintaining his equipment, or on jamming or recon or other support roles.

You have to spend about 350 billion a year to get the complete set of toys and only the US currently spends that. Individually some of its pieces aren't the best available, but together there is no comparison. Not even the rest of NATO can compare without the US.

[Sayeret]

Durandal wrote:

Go read up on how the choppers were used, what the loss rate was of Tornados and A-10s when they were used for low level strikes compared and why Both the British and American Air Forces changed tactics and turned them into guided munition platforms (if I recall correctly...probably not...the Jaguar was usually the designation platform for the Tornado...I forget).

The United States did lose a bunch of A-10s in the first Gulf War and they would if they fought Russia but that wouldn't stop them from being lost. The US lost hundreds of P-47s in World War II to enemy ground fire but that didn't stop them from being used becaue they had an important job, you couldn't expect the B-17s and B-24s to tank to take out all the German tanks.

ArtofPain wrote:

Sorry man did you ever hear about "Igla" or "Strela" missiles? And Russian Armoured Division had Much More AAM and AAG than American one. It's not the Iraq or Jugoslavia.

Yes, I've heard of the "Igla" and "Strela" missiles but a Igla isn't a Stinger missile and neither is a Strela. All three missiles are MANPADs but they aern't all Stingers. A FIM-92 Stinger is a MANPAD that the United States made in the 1970s.

[Sergei]

Some people in Russia still have illusions of grandeur. These people are either insane or have not served in their own armed forces, yet or at all. Russian military is totally not-combat ready today. Totally . . . like a bunch of 5-year olds would whip them. And there's no indication that they will ever become. People do not know their jobs, have no training, unmotivated and are loking for any chance to steal some ammo and sell to a Chechen. This is the worst it's been since the beginning of WWII when some three million Russians surrendered to the Germans, b/c they did not feel like fighting for Stalin. Putin is no Stalin, but if Russia was attacked by a massive modern army (Chinese, for instance) we would see mass desertions/surrenders and complete lack of ability and desire to fight, so aptly demonstrated for 10 years now in Caucasus. Draft-dodging is the Russian national sport, for crying out-loud. The only people who know how to fire a MANPAD in Russia yell "Allahu Akbar", just prior.

Hey, student, that looks like a lot of bull**** from a single person, can you showel it back home to where you belong? I wanna see go you to Kantemirovskaya or Tamanskaya divisions and tell the same **** into their face. Or better yet meet them in combat. Both divisions have excellent training centers and every year they produce a nice crop of fresh specialists tankers and motorised infantrymen. Hell, even my Zhitomir motorized infantry division where I served would kick your lame scandinavian army ass on any given day.

[FDF_Hemppis]

Hell, even my Zhitomir motorized infantry division where I served would kick your lame scandinavian army ass on any given day.

1. How do you know he's Scandinavian?

2. There's no such thing as Scandinavian army... ;)

3. I was you, I wouldn't be so sure about kicking anyone’s asses. Armies of the Nordic countries are all very well equipped, and only a fool would think they're to beaten easily. Same, of course, goes for part of the Russian army, too.

привет!

[RomanS]

aartamen,

you gonna be done here soon punk ass bitch.

[saigonsmuggler]

Some people in Russia still have illusions of grandeur. These people are either insane or have not served in their own armed forces, yet or at all. Russian military is totally not-combat ready today. Totally . . . like a bunch of 5-year olds would whip them. And there's no indication that they will ever become. People do not know their jobs, have no training, unmotivated and are loking for any chance to steal some ammo and sell to a Chechen. This is the worst it's been since the beginning of WWII when some three million Russians surrendered to the Germans, b/c they did not feel like fighting for Stalin. Putin is no Stalin, but if Russia was attacked by a massive modern army (Chinese, for instance) we would see mass desertions/surrenders and complete lack of ability and desire to fight, so aptly demonstrated for 10 years now in Caucasus. Draft-dodging is the Russian national sport, for crying out-loud. The only people who know how to fire a MANPAD in Russia yell "Allahu Akbar", just prior.
I really doubt this. The Russian military is in disarray but foolish is the one who underestimate the Russians - as so aptly demonstrated to Napoleon and Hitler, among others.

They already have excellent technologies. Under serious threat to their motherland, they will bog down the invading foreigners and win the fight. What makes you think modern Russians are any different than their past generations???

[StukaJr]

The statement, that russian military is in disarray may be true for the early and mid 90's but couldn't be any more false in current state it is in. The things have been vastly improving and has been modernizing both in doctrine and equipment - basing your opinion on decade old information is a good way of lying to yourself...

[Dalleer]

I really doubt this. The Russian military is in disarray but foolish is the one who underestimate the Russians - as so aptly demonstrated to Napoleon and Hitler, among others.

Hats off , that is the single best comment to this thread since things started falling to pieces a few pages back.

You should never underestimate anyone - and surely not your enemies.

[Russian Texan]

Some people in Russia still have illusions of grandeur. These people are either insane or have not served in their own armed forces, yet or at all. Russian military is totally not-combat ready today. Totally . . . like a bunch of 5-year olds would whip them. And there's no indication that they will ever become. People do not know their jobs, have no training, unmotivated and are loking for any chance to steal some ammo and sell to a Chechen. This is the worst it's been since the beginning of WWII when some three million Russians surrendered to the Germans, b/c they did not feel like fighting for Stalin. Putin is no Stalin, but if Russia was attacked by a massive modern army (Chinese, for instance) we would see mass desertions/surrenders and complete lack of ability and desire to fight, so aptly demonstrated for 10 years now in Caucasus. Draft-dodging is the Russian national sport, for crying out-loud. The only people who know how to fire a MANPAD in Russia yell "Allahu Akbar", just prior.

Ah...myths, misconceptions and "well informed" media...

Three possibilities:
1. You really don't like Russia (quite possible)
2. You are a troll (well, duh...)
3. Combination of #1 and #2

So which one are you?

Russian military in disarray...ha :lol:
At this point in time Russian military is one of only two combat ready large militaries and it also happens to be the one with the most experience.

A lot has changed since early 90s, a lot...

[16 OBr SpN]

Some people in Russia still have illusions of grandeur. These people are either insane or have not served in their own armed forces, yet or at all. Russian military is totally not-combat ready today. Totally . . . like a bunch of 5-year olds would whip them. And there's no indication that they will ever become. People do not know their jobs, have no training, unmotivated and are loking for any chance to steal some ammo and sell to a Chechen. This is the worst it's been since the beginning of WWII when some three million Russians surrendered to the Germans, b/c they did not feel like fighting for Stalin. Putin is no Stalin, but if Russia was attacked by a massive modern army (Chinese, for instance) we would see mass desertions/surrenders and complete lack of ability and desire to fight, so aptly demonstrated for 10 years now in Caucasus. Draft-dodging is the Russian national sport, for crying out-loud. The only people who know how to fire a MANPAD in Russia yell "Allahu Akbar", just prior.

Listen ****head, what the fock do you know about our military!?

We have a saying "Ссученный на "гражданке" - ссученный в рядах", не зря ты хапал пиздов там!
Ну-ка отправь мне в приват свои данные (номер В/Ч; ФИО; звание)!!
Такие опущенки как ты не заслуживают ни хуя кроме кирзы в ебальник!!

[Sergei]

Hell, even my Zhitomir motorized infantry division where I served would kick your lame scandinavian army ass on any given day.

1. How do you know he's Scandinavian?

2. There's no such thing as Scandinavian army... ;)

3. I was you, I wouldn't be so sure about kicking anyone’s asses. Armies of the Nordic countries are all very well equipped, and only a fool would think they're to beaten easily. Same, of course, goes for part of the Russian army, too.

привет!
I am sorry to mislead you by calling him the Scandinavian guy, he is probably some product of a baltic chicken**** nation with SS tatoo on his ass.

[APOCALYPSE]

Actually the Rus Army is just deceiving the world it's pretty much just as powerful as ever and I don't know about u but didn't the so called most powerful military in the world lose the battles in faluja, so they had to ask Hussein's old army to "calm them iraqs down man, there gonna wips us bad go in there and calm things down!!" hahahahahaha :lol:

[Dalleer]

Well , I suppose it all comes down on how you define "losing a battle"...

[APOCALYPSE]

Just accept it (you can't relise the marines got thier butss kickedbecause you've been told U.S. Mil is the most powerful), thats the REAL reason why they brought Saddahms old generals in to try and stop the falujia fighting?

[Dalleer]

Well , in my opinion the US marines were not given enough "authority" to do what they were supposed to have done ever since this Sadr - fellow started causing trouble.

I'm sure Fallujah would've been like Stalingrad if they would've really let the marines "rip it up" , but in many ways it's better to avoid these sorts of things if peace can be reached instead.

In other words , the marines were not allowed to "fight with their full potential" in my opinion.

Secondly, it's quite amusing when you're already certain that the Americans have corrupted me with their decadent capitalist propaganda etc.

The fact is , that I don't look down on any armed force in this world. The Russian armed forces are indeed something to fear , but so is the US's.

And , let me say this again..

"Underestimating the enemy is the mother of all foock ups"

[APOCALYPSE]

u don't listen or understand what i said your brainwashed not in capitalistic prpaganda is NOT what i said, i knew you would ASSUME that the marines were not alowed to do what the wanted to, you know why because thats the only excuse they could make people belive and Americans would belive it why? since Americans believed the U.S. Gov's constant grovelings "we're the only superpower, we're the only superpower" it would be next to impossable for them to all of a sudden rellize they lost in Faluja and thier losing in Iraq pierod! most of the iraqi's being killed are iraqi civilians by us airstrikes why do you think us is calling on "retired" military men to go to iraq wow if iraq is causing this much damage then a convetional war with RUSSIA will devistate the SOCALLED most powerfull army in the world Russia's military is the only REAL SUPER POWER, and thats NO exageration fella andall US MILITARY MEN FROM colenals on up know it, their are directly lieing to thier on people about Russia is a shadow of its self, Rus and US will go to war before 2008 what and see.

[FDF_Hemppis]

Rus and US will go to war before 2008 what and see.

Someone seriously needs a heavy dose of medication... :roll:

[FallenAngel]

Someone is off their meds today....

[Sayeret]

Actually the Rus Army is just deceiving the world it's pretty much just as powerful as ever and I don't know about u but didn't the so called most powerful military in the world lose the battles in faluja, so they had to ask Hussein's old army to "calm them iraqs down man, there gonna wips us bad go in there and calm things down!!" hahahahahaha


Rus and US will go to war before 2008 what and see.

Someone needs to stop posting here drunk or stoned. :P

[ctcboy]

What happened in Falluhjah is very easily understood. The U.S. miltary and the the U.S. government understood clearly that the rest of the Arab world was watching what was happening there. They understood that it would not help their cause to wage the kind of all out battle in Fallujah that wopuld be neccessary to win. Thus they acted with restraint and found a more politicaly acceptable solution.
For anybody to think that the U.S. was incapable of defeating the insurgent forces in Falujah is ridiculous. Had they decided to actually go in and dig them out they could have done so easily. Had they decided that they did not want to take heavy casualties in the process they would simply have had to use more artillery, airpower and armour. The insurgents would have been killed or captured to a man. The only problem would be the high level of civilian deaths this would have caused.
There are no insurgent forces operating in Iraq today that are capable of winning, let alone surviving a direct confrontation with the U.S. military if the U.S. chooses to use its forces to their full extant.
You can argue and rail against this fact all you want. You will still be wrong and everyone knows it.

As for the main discussion I have much respect for our Russian friends and I am very glad that we are no longer enemies. The problem that they face in terms of producing weaponary that will compete with U.S. weaponary in the market all comes down to money. Russias econmoy is unfourtunantley not in very good shape. Although this will almost cetainly improve, for the forseeable future they will not possess the kind of capital for research and development that the U.S. does. I have no doubt that they will be able to produce a tank capabable of defeating the M1a2 . The problem will be on how the U.S. responds to this. They will simply put even more money in to developing the next generation of tank. At the moment the U.S. has more tham sufficent funding as well as a considerable lead in terms of technology to leap far ahead of anything the Russians can build. This lead pretty much applies to most classes of weaponry.
Of course the Russians are mostly interested in developing waepons for sale internationaly. In this I believe they have an advantage in that they can probably produce quality equipment a lower price than comparable U.S. equipment. It will certainly be less expensive than the next generation of U.S. equipment that will be designed to counter it.
As most countries will not be facing the U.S. in a conventional war and could not hope to afford the kind of military they would need to prevail in such a situation I would expect that the Russian equipment would in all likelyhood be a very attractive option.
Again I want to be clear that I in no way mean this to be disrespectul to Russia. I'm just pointing out what I believe the situation to be.

[Makaveli]

Trust me the Marines did not lose the battle in Fallujah. They had that city surrounded and could of crushed the insurgents. But there probably would have been a lot of civilian casualties so they let the ICDC take over to patrol the city. Also it is very frustrating and difficult to fight an enemy that doesn't wear any uniform and that stores weapons in mosques. The insurgents also use the mosques for protection which is pathetic and use civilians for human shields. U.S. military is doing a hella good job in Iraq.

[Abbyy]

:) resembles me old leaflet from WW2 about Tiger Panzer

http://www.sv-rus.ru/abrams.jpg

[Operation Ivy]

Actually the Rus Army is just deceiving the world it's pretty much just as powerful as ever and I don't know about u but didn't the so called most powerful military in the world lose the battles in faluja, so they had to ask Hussein's old army to "calm them iraqs down man, there gonna wips us bad go in there and calm things down!!" hahahahahaha :lol:

wow ur a dumbass

and i seem to remember the great Russia having some problems in Afganistan,.... now lets see what country just took that over...............

[Javehn]

:) resembles me old leaflet from WW2 about Tiger Panzer

http://www.sv-rus.ru/abrams.jpg

OUCH!!!!!

[Dalleer]

u don't listen or understand what i said your brainwashed not in capitalistic prpaganda is NOT what i said, i knew you would ASSUME that the marines were not alowed to do what the wanted to

Ah yes, it's always the others who do not understand your views..

So it's one of these "types" today.


the SOCALLED most powerfull army in the world Russia's military is the only REAL SUPER POWER, and thats NO exageration fella

Well , I'm glad that you admire a countries' armed forces so much , afterall , that specific country needs all the fans it can get.


Rus and US will go to war before 2008 what and see.

Tonga and the Nauru - islands will also go to war in 2008... Just wait and see ! It will happen...

[Operation Ivy]

:) resembles me old leaflet from WW2 about Tiger Panzer

http://www.sv-rus.ru/abrams.jpg

whats it say in english! :D

[Abbyy]

:) resembles me old leaflet from WW2 about Tiger Panzer

http://www.sv-rus.ru/abrams.jpg

whats it say in english! :D
Hit vulnerable places of Abrams! :)

[ArtofPain]

:) resembles me old leaflet from WW2 about Tiger Panzer

http://www.sv-rus.ru/abrams.jpg

whats it say in english! :D
Hit vulnerable places of Abrams! :)
In CW: "Hit aiming devices with small arms"; "Hit back niche of turret!";
"Hit the gap between turret and min body! The gap is huge and you can hit it from far distances!"; "Hit the sides of main body of a tank! It can be penetrated even by old RPGs!"

[saigonsmuggler]

Just accept it (you can't relise the marines got thier butss kickedbecause you've been told U.S. Mil is the most powerful), thats the REAL reason why they brought Saddahms old generals in to try and stop the falujia fighting?
Not quite!

Peace in Falluja ...... in time for....... June 30th Iraqi handover..... in time for...... November US election!

Same thing can be said for peace deal with Sadr!

US administration basically wants time for things to calm down for the election. But following this strategy also put Bush at risk - the people who are against him (Sadr, Sunni insurgents, Al Qaeda, etc.) basically can stir things up in Iraq significantly before the election to potentially affect its outcomes.

[Operation Ivy]

:) resembles me old leaflet from WW2 about Tiger Panzer

http://www.sv-rus.ru/abrams.jpg

whats it say in english! :D
Hit vulnerable places of Abrams! :)
In CW: "Hit aiming devices with small arms"; "Hit back niche of turret!";
"Hit the gap between turret and min body! The gap is huge and you can hit it from far distances!"; "Hit the sides of main body of a tank! It can be penetrated even by old RPGs!"

Thank You :D

[oldsoak]

Nice one chaps - do they have a similar pamphlet for Challenger 2 ?

[Abbyy]

Nice one chaps - do they have a similar pamphlet for Challenger 2 ?

I suppose no because it some kind of joke linking Abrams with Nazi Tiger. Atleast text almost the same as in 1943 :)

[OB Kenobi]

Nice one chaps - do they have a similar pamphlet for Challenger 2 ?

I suppose no because it some kind of joke linking Abrams with Nazi Tiger. Atleast text almost the same as in 1943 :)

Why is it a joke? It's pretty accurate, according to the info from Iraq.

[platform389]

Why is it a joke? It's pretty accurate, according to the info from Iraq.

Read this. AAR on Abrams performance in Iraq. Powerpoint presentation with photos.


NO catastrophic loses due to Iraqi direct or indirect fire weapons.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2003/abrams-oif-lessonslearned2003.ppt

Should they adopt the British type ballistic skirts, That problem area will be easily addressed.

[Abbyy]

Nice one chaps - do they have a similar pamphlet for Challenger 2 ?

I suppose no because it some kind of joke linking Abrams with Nazi Tiger. Atleast text almost the same as in 1943 :)

Why is it a joke? It's pretty accurate, according to the info from Iraq.

Once again I repeat! I've seen instruction from 1943 about Tiger disabling. It is practically the same as this one except mentioning RPG.