Obama to sorry for american ww2 "war crimes" [Archive]

muck

05-21-2009, 05:40 PM

Lol, yeah...He's an unpatriotic dimwit. p-)

The Dresden Fire Bombings for instance were a war crime.
Reconciliation is a mutual act. I don't see anything wrong in his intentions, let alone something harmful to the interests of the United States.

One can argue whether or not the acts of war are ‘war crimes’ or just how a nation conducts itself during a conflict. The fact remains that fighting leads to deaths. Should we have not fought, both for ourselves and on behalf of others, the Nazis would be ruling the world right now.

Thee President is not simply a cheese eating surrender monkey. He’s dangerous.:cantbeli:Massive asshattery is what that guy spreads.

11 Bravo

05-21-2009, 05:46 PM

:cantbeli:Massive asshattery is what that Oblahma guy spreads.

There fixed it fer ya.

Lau

05-21-2009, 05:50 PM

I'm Dumbarse of the week.

Fixed it for ya.

muck

05-21-2009, 05:52 PM

Fixed it for ya.Get out of my head!

LineDoggie

05-21-2009, 05:54 PM

Got to be a Sick Joke

For one thing, we wouldnt have killed 3,000 Vichy Milice unless they were firing on us. Now FFL is a likely culprit in such an action.

Also no B-29s ever were in Europe to bomb bridges. B-29's all went to the PTO and CBI.

therifleman

05-21-2009, 05:55 PM

I don't see much problem with it in the case of Dresden. The amount of damage inflicted by RAF and USAAF bombers is significantly disproportional to any military value the city itself had. It resulted in a horrendous amount of civilian casualties.

click

05-21-2009, 05:55 PM

OK, while he's at it, he should apologize to central and eastern Europe (Poland especially) for handing them over to Stalin after their contribution to the Allied war effort.

Also, the death of German civilians, while regrettable (RiP :(), was necessary for the fall of germany. We did not simply bomb the crap out of German towns to kill civilians (war crime) we were stopping the German means of production as well as their will to fight.

Did the bomds droped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki count towards the US' seemingly ever growing list of war crimes war crimes?

These include accusations of anti-German sentiment during the war and placing Japanese-Americans into ‘concentration camps’ in which UC Berkeley professor Harold Beffer, PhD, estimated that 30,000 died.For the last time, these were not nearly as infamous as the Nazi concentration camps. While it is true that the US government became overly paranoid and overreacted to their fear, the Japanese were not put in camps to be worked and starved to death or exterminated. They were not beaten and were not executed. Accusations like these make me want to punch a postmodernist in the face.

philbob

05-21-2009, 05:58 PM

Obama is so pathetic i hope the opposition make a huge deal out of this

Panchito12

05-21-2009, 05:59 PM

Obama should also apologize to my Mom for America ruining her childhood (she grew up in Europe during the war, but in a "neutral" country).

AND while we're at it Obama should apologize to my Dad for America ruining his childhood - they reduced the amount of chocolate available to him in Puerto Rico during the war.

Anyone else need an apology for the US role in WW2??

philbob

05-21-2009, 06:02 PM

dont forget the quakers or one of their spin off groups who didnt fight in the war for religious reason but were subject to the hostility of the rest of the population who did contribute...

muck

05-21-2009, 06:02 PM

"Pathetic" are some of the posters here.

It's ridiculous and amazing at the same time to witness how much bullcrap can be read into a simple and absolutely unsubstantial gesture of reconciliation. Well, where's a will there will be a way, too.

therifleman

05-21-2009, 06:03 PM

Also, the death of German civilians, while regrettable (RiP :-(), was necessary for the fall of germany. We did not simply bomb the crap out of German towns to kill civilians (war crime) we were stopping the German means of production as well as their will to fight.

In the case of Dresden I believe it is still questionable. What industry the city of Dresden had was located on the outskirts, and not in the city center (an area that was heavily bombed).

nullterm

05-21-2009, 06:04 PM

Wait, what. Making the Germans feel better about the war? This can't end well.

LineDoggie

05-21-2009, 06:07 PM

click

05-21-2009, 06:09 PM

IIRC that gesture was re-building europe.

ie The Marshal Plan

philbob

05-21-2009, 06:10 PM

IIRC that gesture was re-building europe.

dont forget saving there ungratful asses from a madman either:roll:

several mad men acutally....

Lau

05-21-2009, 06:14 PM

Wait, what. Making the Germans feel better about the war? This can't end well.

Yea, all Germans in 1939-45 were Nazis! :roll:

Do you think and apology for the fierce bombing of Dresden would suddenly turn all Germans into Nazis again, make them feel all warm an fuzzy inside about their actions in WW2?

This is not an apology to the Nazis.

dont forget saving there ungratful asses from a madman either:roll:

several mad men acutally....

Ungrateful?

philbob

05-21-2009, 06:15 PM

and what have the Germans done to warrent a appology after 60 years?

Arnt there even reports how German schools are not teaching about some of the war crimes they commited anymore?

yes, ungrateful somethin our European allies have a tendancy to be from time to time.

gustav

05-21-2009, 06:16 PM

Never heard of French militiamen killed by Americans during WWII...

LineDoggie

05-21-2009, 06:17 PM

dont forget saving there ungratful asses from a madman either:roll:

several mad men acutally....We werent alone though. Never forget that, If the British hadnt been stubborn and held on there would never have been a Second front. And the Poles who fought in their homeland, France, Norway, North Africa, Italy, France again, and finally to Germany, only to be betrayed at the end. And the Soviet Soldiers paid dearly on the eastern front to help all of us defeat Nazism.

LineDoggie

05-21-2009, 06:19 PM

Never heard of French militiamen killed by Americans during WWII...

It's Possible if one or three was armed and shooting at US Forces. But 3,000? No friggen way. It sounds to me like the revenge upon the collaborators that happened all over Europe in 44-45.

nullterm

05-21-2009, 06:19 PM

Yea, all Germans in 1939-45 were Nazis! :roll:

Do you think and apology for the fierce bombing of Dresden would suddenly turn all Germans into Nazis again, make them feel all warm an fuzzy inside about their actions in WW2?

This is not an apology to the Nazis.

Oop, didn't realize the Euro humourless police were out in force today.

philbob

05-21-2009, 06:20 PM

We werent alone though. Never forget that, If the British hadnt been stubborn and held on there would never have been a Second front. And the Poles who fought in their homeland, France, Norway, North Africa, Italy, France again, and finally to Germany, only to be betrayed at the end. And the Soviet Soldiers paid dearly on the eastern front to help all of us defeat Nazism.

I dont forget it and i wouldnt belittle their contributions but modern Europeans tend to forget ours, the funny thing is even Obama said that when he went to Poland two months ago....

click

05-21-2009, 06:21 PM

muck

05-21-2009, 06:21 PM

IIRC that gesture was re-building europe.16,2 Bn USD were raised for the ERP, only 1,4 Bn went to Western Germany though. Nearly all of the fund receivers were neutral or even allied to the US. It's beyond all doubts generous that the defeated axis powers were included into the programme but the entire thing has nothing got to do with reconciliation. The ERP was just another part of the Truman Doctrine and the economical recovery of Europe was an absolute windfall for the US, too...

little icebear

05-21-2009, 06:22 PM

Arnt there even reports how German schools are not teaching about some of the war crimes they commited anymore?

I´d like to see ONE of these reports. Source please...

I would like to know how all those "OMG, Obama is a traitor!!!" folks would react, if Obama visited a German military graveyard, paying his respect to the fallen, where members of the SS are buried.

Like Reagan did.

philbob

05-21-2009, 06:23 PM

some europeans act as if they borderline despise what we have done so turn about is fair play

Lt-Col A. Tack

05-21-2009, 06:24 PM

How about I request an apology from the government of Italy for the way my German ancestors were treated under the Roman Empire.

philbob

05-21-2009, 06:24 PM

click

05-21-2009, 06:25 PM

I´d like to see ONE of these reports. Source please...

I would like to know how all those "OMG, Obama is a traitor!!!" folks would react, if Obama visited a German military graveyard, paying his respect to the fallen, where members of the SS are buried.

Like Reagan did.

I for one do not disrespect the German fighting man and even have a unique respect for his continuing to fight when all was lost, and I am not a fan of Obama.

There. Now you know

muck

05-21-2009, 06:25 PM

Arnt there even reports how German schools are not teaching about some of the war crimes they commited anymore?German schools committed war crimes? :)

And no - what you refer to happened in the Ukraine. Aforesaid reports can be found on this board as well.

German secondary schools teach WW2 history over an entire year by the way, including a mandatory visit to at least one concentration camp.

philbob

05-21-2009, 06:27 PM

German schools committed war crimes? :)

And no - what you refer to happened in the Ukraine. Aforesaid reports can be found on this board as well.

German secondary schools teach WW2 history over an entire year by the way, including a mandatory visit to at least one concentration camp.

thanks for the correction

Pandemonium

05-21-2009, 06:34 PM

How about I request an apology from the government of Italy for the way my German ancestors were treated under the Roman Empire.

I request an apology from the Romans, French, Germans, Spanish, Austrians, Dutch, Walloons,...

Breakfast in Vegas

05-21-2009, 06:37 PM

It's an uncertified hearsay source. When it actually hits the airwaves, I'll actually lose sleep over it.

muck

05-21-2009, 06:41 PM

Why of all people would you lose your sleep over it, Teuton? p-)

little icebear

05-21-2009, 06:41 PM

I don´t believe that anybody in Germany requested an "apology". We´re not Poland.

It´s just a gesture while he´s visiting a city that has been bombed to pieces while it was crowded with civilians and refugees... at least by modern standards it is a war crime.

Maybe ask some allied bomber pilots who took part in this raid. It´s safe to say, that most of them feel the same way.
Doesn´t chance anything since the German public and the German policy makers do understand that it was a war that we started and that we´re hardly in a position to point the finger.

XShipRider

05-21-2009, 06:54 PM

The victor defines war crime(s).

Maybe President Obama is in the process of rewriting the history books with Germany, Japan and Italy winning in his version.

Euroamerican

05-21-2009, 06:57 PM

^---- we'll doesn't he believe that certain trivial documents are "living" documents and not meant to hold up over time.

Lau

05-21-2009, 07:01 PM

I dont forget it and i wouldnt belittle their contributions but modern Europeans tend to forget ours, the funny thing is even Obama said that when he went to Poland two months ago....

Yea yea. Like modern US citizens tend to forget the Frence, Dutch and Spanish support during the American Revolutionary War (1775-1783). Had it not been for those nations, and France in particular, there most likely would have been no USA.

But hey, thats history, who cares? I'm sure you dont!

The victor defines war crime(s).

Maybe President Obama is in the process of rewriting the history books with Germany, Japan and Italy winning in his version.

No, history defines war crimes, they will be tolerated for a few generations by the victorious side, but not forever. A lie told a thousand times is still a lie..... Well, not in Soviet Russia where history writes you and bad stuff never happened to anyone!! But other than that. ;)

philbob

05-21-2009, 07:22 PM

I could say the same wbout you Lau it happend get over it you seem to think the world would be better if the US would appologize for something that happend so long ago in a diffrent time it wont. We are still facing famin, enviromental disastor, decreasing resources and energy suppiles and increaseing extremism, one form of extremism is that every little ethnic group and special intrest is demanding reperations or an apology for things that happend generations ago

LineDoggie

05-21-2009, 07:27 PM

I´d like to see ONE of these reports. Source please...

I would like to know how all those "OMG, Obama is a traitor!!!" folks would react, if Obama visited a German military graveyard, paying his respect to the fallen, where members of the SS are buried.

Like Reagan did.
Was Kolmeshohe a Waffen-SS only Cemetary? is there even such a thing?

Should no one go to the Le Cambe Normandy German Cemetary as Hauptsturmfuhrer Michael Wittman is buried there from the Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler division among 21,000 other Germans?

49 Graves were of Waffen-SS Men out of 2,000 Other German Soldiers at Kolmeshohe.

little icebear

05-21-2009, 07:32 PM

XShipRider

05-21-2009, 07:37 PM

But if Reagan does it, he´s in the clear zone...

Unlikely to happen.

little icebear

05-21-2009, 07:42 PM

Unlikely to happen.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/11/Regan_Kohl_Bitburg_1985.jpg

Xaito

05-21-2009, 07:57 PM

if Obama pulls it off he'll be one step closer to not making European hypocrisy-detectors go off scale next time he tries to play upholder of moral standards.

wasser

05-21-2009, 07:58 PM

Personally, I'll wait to see what Obama actually says before burning him at the stake. ;)

However, the article itself is quite bias in its writing. It's interesting that the article mentions the fire bombing of Dresden and the grossly inflated 250,000 civilian death toll. A German commission of 13 historians (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/onthefrontline/3123512/Dresden-bombing-death-toll-lower-than-thought.html) concluded the total didn't exceed 25,000. It was a tragedy for sure, but the point is how the article clings to the propaganda numbers.

I couldn't find any information about the claim of the killing of 3,000 Milice members, nor am I sure what is meant by "the bridge over the Rhine River was bombed by an American B-29, killing over 300 fleeing refugees." As Linedoggie mentioned, there were no B-29s flying bombing missions in the ETO. Additionally, it'd be a very lucky crew if one bomber could take down a bridge on one mission. As for claiming the destruction of enemy infrastructure as a war crime, that is highly suspect.

And I couldn't find anything to substantiate the final claim of 30,000 Japanese deaths in Japanese American Internment camps. In fact, the only references I could find in a quick google search found only the OPs article.

A lie told a thousand times is still a lie..... ;)

Quite true. :)

deagle

05-21-2009, 08:01 PM

well, it wasn't near the scale of other atrocities, like holocaust or nanjing.

Ngati Tumatauenga

05-21-2009, 08:07 PM

well, it wasn't near the scale of other atrocities, like holocaust or nanjing.

That's an excuse?

LineDoggie

05-21-2009, 08:10 PM

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/11/Regan_Kohl_Bitburg_1985.jpg

Is there a Point to this?

After all Reagan was Greatly Criticized in the US Press for the visit.

TR1

05-21-2009, 08:10 PM

Very mature thing to do, IMO.

little icebear

05-21-2009, 08:14 PM

Is there a Point to this?

It was a response to XShipRider´s last comment.

Arfah

05-21-2009, 08:20 PM

Will the German Government apologise for Guernica (kondor legion) Warsaw, Rotterdam, Coventry etc. ?
Should the British apologise for Caen, Cleves, Cologne, Hamburg, The Dams & Dresden ?
Have they already done so ?
Is it important ?
Who cares ?

Let's just learn from history and move on. Any apology would be a political act and not one of deepmost sincerity, so why bother ?

If Obama does apologise, it's only words. He could keep his fingers crossed !

[WDW]Megaraptor

05-21-2009, 09:13 PM

How about I request an apology from the government of Italy for the way my German ancestors were treated under the Roman Empire.

I demand an apology from the British for their oppression of the American colonies.

Specifically, for my ancestor who was hanged by the authorities of the Royal Crown Colony of North Carolina.

[nevermind the part about him leading an armed rebellion against the government]

Arfah

05-21-2009, 09:17 PM

Megaraptor;4144549']I demand an apology from the British for their oppression of the American colonies.

Specifically, for my ancestor who was hanged by the authorities of the Royal Crown Colony of North Carolina.

[nevermind the part about him leading an armed rebellion against the government]

As soon as you've paid the U.K. all your owed taxes ! p-)

LineDoggie

05-21-2009, 09:18 PM

As soon as you've paid up all your owed taxes ! p-)

If he does that Obama cant nominate him for a Cabinet position.........

uTu

05-21-2009, 09:29 PM

guy on internet sez prez is devil muslim = outrage++ !!!
teleprompters smashed!

Kilgor

05-21-2009, 09:38 PM

Before boarding the outrage bus, can we have this from another news source ?

Google news isn't showing up anything.

Geezah

05-21-2009, 09:46 PM

CG51

05-21-2009, 09:51 PM

http://i40.tinypic.com/29m1zcz.gif

Gesher

05-21-2009, 10:46 PM

However, the article itself is quite bias in its writing. It's interesting that the article mentions the fire bombing of Dresden and the grossly inflated 250,000 civilian death toll. A German commission of 13 historians (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/onthefrontline/3123512/Dresden-bombing-death-toll-lower-than-thought.html) concluded the total didn't exceed 25,000. It was a tragedy for sure, but the point is how the article clings to the propaganda numbers.

I couldn't find any information about the claim of the killing of 3,000 Milice members, nor am I sure what is meant by "the bridge over the Rhine River was bombed by an American B-29, killing over 300 fleeing refugees." As Linedoggie mentioned, there were no B-29s flying bombing missions in the ETO. Additionally, it'd be a very lucky crew if one bomber could take down a bridge on one mission. As for claiming the destruction of enemy infrastructure as a war crime, that is highly suspect.

And I couldn't find anything to substantiate the final claim of 30,000 Japanese deaths in Japanese American Internment camps. In fact, the only references I could find in a quick google search found only the OPs article.

Yeah i found the numbers to be the most extreme estimates by far, it seems like they are trying to back up a slant.

The 30,000 number of Japanese dead seems completely out there, as the number of internees was around 110,000 making a death rate of close to 30%! I'm guessing he might be referring to something else, as Japanese and Soviet POW camps at the time were around that number.

The 300,000 number is also the largest number ive seen claimed for the Dresden bombing, those types of numbers were only widespread right after the war. Even pretty liberal historians in this day and age wouldn't venture to claim that.

3,000 milice "civilians", I'm no expert but if that did happen it was probably through reprisals by the French themselves as someone said before. Ive heard of some scattered shootings of at most dozens of pows.

LineDoggie

05-21-2009, 10:51 PM

Bingo!, it's Likely crap as too much doesnt add up.

skipperbob

05-22-2009, 01:59 AM

This Obama bashing is getting rediculous! You are tearing him apart and mocking him for speechs that haven't even been made yet! No one knows what is going to be said or what will be included - this is simple conjecture by people who have lost the ability to think on their own and simply will make up anything they can to discredit the man.

Midav

05-22-2009, 02:12 AM

skipperbob

05-22-2009, 02:20 AM

Obama's Uncle was one of the first American troops to go in to Auschwitz?

Do you believe he said that?

What as that got to do with anything? I'm talking about making criticisms of speechs that haven't been given yet and no one knows what he will have to say.

budgie

05-22-2009, 02:48 AM

America can't possibly be right 100% of the time. There's nothing 'weak' about apologising for past trensgressions/errors, especially from a gracious victor. I suppose this will somehow 'embolden' the terrorists? Get over it.

muck

05-22-2009, 03:25 AM

Will the German Government apologise for Guernica (kondor legion) Warsaw, Rotterdam, Coventry etc. ?Yes, they already have a couple of times.

Should the British apologise for Caen, Cleves, Cologne, Hamburg, The Dams & Dresden ?No, because they already have a couple of times.

Is it important ?Yes, "reconciliation" is the magic word.

Who cares ?Obviously you do not, but the victims and their relatives do care. For those targeted in these senseless acts of violence any expression of sympathy could be important. What's so bad, or even degrading about it?

If Obama does apologise, it's only wordsThat's the point! It's only a bunch of words he would let go. No reparations, no obligations, nothing. Just a generous and gracious gesture of humanity.

I didn't think such a gesture could hurt America's pride so badly. :cantbeli:

LineDoggie

05-22-2009, 03:27 AM

Cstafford

05-22-2009, 03:34 AM

I just saved myself a **** ton of embarrassment by looking up who liberated Auschwitz, dodged a bullet on that one.

valtrex

05-22-2009, 05:09 AM

This says it all for me........

http://www.youtube.com/v/SV1sxq8mqvA

Also, my Father would like an apology for growing up in kids homes, after all he was a direct result of the "Oversexed, overpaid and over here"!
I thought Auschwitz-Birkenau was liberated by the Soviets. Obama's uncle was a Soviet soldier?

XShipRider

05-22-2009, 05:39 AM

That's the point! It's only a bunch of words he would let go. No reparations, no obligations, nothing. Just a generous and gracious gesture of humanity.

I didn't think such a gesture could hurt America's pride so badly. :cantbeli:

You miss the bigger picture. In America those little words can, and will at some point, lead to reparations and/or obligations. Those words infer culpability and in turn leave the modern generation open to tort.

There is no way the modern generations are responsible for the so-called misdeeds of generations long past. The A-bombs dropped on Japan for example. I wasn't alive when the A-bombs were dropped which leaves me the omnipotence of hindsight, second guessing and rewriting history in deciding if it was right or wrong. At the time it was considered the right thing to do. Should my generation apologize for that? What is the cut-off? Where does it end?

There are some long overdue apologies for the spice wars too. Those pesky Dutch and English need to make some speeches. There was a reason Spain had conquistadors -- to conquer. There are no apologies now for whatever wrongs those men committed, that's why it's called history. And don't get me started on the Mongolians, Muslims or tribes of Africa.

We need to let sleeping dogs lie, learn from history then move on.

Lau

05-22-2009, 07:21 AM

You miss the bigger picture. In America those little words can, and will at some point, lead to reparations and/or obligations. Those words infer culpability and in turn leave the modern generation open to tort.

There is no way the modern generations are responsible for the so-called misdeeds of generations long past. The A-bombs dropped on Japan for example. I wasn't alive when the A-bombs were dropped which leaves me the omnipotence of hindsight, second guessing and rewriting history in deciding if it was right or wrong. At the time it was considered the right thing to do. Should my generation apologize for that? What is the cut-off? Where does it end?

There are some long overdue apologies for the spice wars too. Those pesky Dutch and English need to make some speeches. There was a reason Spain had conquistadors -- to conquer. There are no apologies now for whatever wrongs those men committed, that's why it's called history. And don't get me started on the Mongolians, Muslims or tribes of Africa.

We need to let sleeping dogs lie, learn from history then move on.

So in other words, all the Americans who call for more gratitude from europeans liberated by the US in WW2, should just STFU?

It's history and we learn from it. Move on. ;)

No reparations, no obligations, nothing. Just a generous and gracious gesture of humanity.

Sums it up nicely, how that can be bad is beyond me.

Panchito12

05-22-2009, 07:29 AM

How about I request an apology from the government of Italy for the way my German ancestors were treated under the Roman Empire.

Get in line pal. What about the Germans apologizing for how the Goths and Visigoths invaded and colonized my Spanish ancestors?

AND DON'T GET MET STARTED ON THE MOORS (or "Moops" if you're a Seinfeld fan)!!!!

Panchito12

05-22-2009, 07:31 AM

I thought Auschwitz-Birkenau was liberated by the Soviets. Obama's uncle was a Soviet soldier?

If so, that would make Obama the first Black Russian Kenyan Hawaiian POTUS.p-)

Panchito12

05-22-2009, 07:33 AM

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/11/Regan_Kohl_Bitburg_1985.jpg

What the controversy over Reagan's visit to Bitburg failed to bring up was the fact that every year, the 36th TFW Wing Commander paid his respects to the buried soldiers in this cementary.

I know 'cause I went to base HS.

HorrigEn

05-22-2009, 07:39 AM

Jippo

05-22-2009, 08:29 AM

You miss the bigger picture. In America those little words can, and will at some point, lead to reparations and/or obligations. Those words infer culpability and in turn leave the modern generation open to tort.

It's very much todays world where a leader can be so strong that he admits mistakes of the past generations.

Now you have got your modern generation prestige that I am not so sure (after reading through this thread) you deserve.

Many many people in the world (esp. after Bush) think that US is, if I may, really the "Team America" full of arrogant asshats who would never do anything like this courtesy of acknowledgement. Obama's comment is a big big crack on the bad PR US has been getting lately.

It makes you look good again. Good is strong, evil is not.

commanding

05-22-2009, 09:47 AM

I think the real question about World War II, and the way it was run, was that if the EXACT same circumstances were to occur today, would we do it again the same exact way? I would say "yes we can" to borrow a phrase from POTUS.
Total war, is total war. One does not win wars, by sending flowers to the enemy.

PS.....those were not mistakes, those were decisions at the moment, made when it appeared that we could loose the war, and it was a very very real possiblity we would.

muck

05-22-2009, 10:12 AM

PS.....those were not mistakes, those were decisions at the moment, made when it appeared that we could loose the war, and it was a very very real possiblity we would.Lol, I've never heard even one historian express his concerns that the US of A could have lost the war in Europe in late February 1945. And just alike no historian would agree that bombing an already destroyed city which was overcrowded with refugees at that time would have been a contribution to military success.
Why not just speak out the facts? Germany's industry lay wasted in midst '44 already and further air raids had little to no military significance. The aerial bombing was nothing else than a punishment. You should ask yourself why the campaigns bore names like "Operation Gomorrha" since 1943. I'm not well-versed in the bible, but weren't Sodom and Gomorrha destroyed by the Lord for the sins of their inhabitants? p-)

Panchito12

05-22-2009, 10:19 AM

If Obama is going to apologize for "war crimes" then I guess that his grandfather, the one he keeps saying that "served in Patton's Army", was a War Criminal then.

Breakfast in Vegas

05-22-2009, 10:26 AM

Why not just speak out the facts? Germany's industry lay wasted in midst '44 already and further air raids had little to no military significance. The aerial bombing was nothing else than a punishment. You should ask yourself why the campaigns bore names like "Operation Gomorrha" since 1943. I'm not well-versed in the bible, but weren't Sodom and Gomorrha destroyed by the Lord for the sins of their inhabitants? p-)That's not true IIRC. German industrial production continued to grow into 1945, not to mention the Ardennes offensive occuring in December of '44. Germany was on the road to defeat in late '44 and early '45, but not yet defeated. Not to mention the fact that Stalin requested assistance from the Allies in bombing the Germans assisting their advance.

I'm not defending the destruction of Dresden (or Königsberg for that matter etc.) as retrospectively and in the minds of some generals at the time it was unnecessary and regrettable from a human and cultural standpoint, however second-guessing now or even labeling the bombing a war crime is inappropriate.

FullMetalJackass

05-22-2009, 10:35 AM

I thought Auschwitz-Birkenau was liberated by the Soviets. Obama's uncle was a Soviet soldier?

The ****ing jug-eared clodhopper just reads what is put in front of him. I blame his staff for failing at researching his family history. He is just a politician, not some bright intellectual who has a firm grasp of anything besides being a politician.

muck

05-22-2009, 11:38 AM

That's not true IIRC. German industrial production continued to grow into 1945,I didn't say a word about the growth of the industrial output. It's a matter of fact that most aboveground facilities were destroyed after massive raids of 1943 and 1944. There was only a rising output because of the massive usage of forced labourers and improvement of the production flow.

not to mention the Ardennes offensive occuring in December of '44.Which was a counter attack by its military nature, and no "offensive".

Germany was on the road to defeat in late '44 and early '45, but not yet defeated.That situation did not include any chance for Germany to win the war like commanding stated.

philbob

05-22-2009, 12:47 PM

So in other words, all the Americans who call for more gratitude from europeans liberated by the US in WW2, should just STFU?

It's history and we learn from it. Move on. ;)

Sums it up nicely, how that can be bad is beyond me.

then that STFU goes the same for the Europeans who want it for helping us during our war for indpenence and for the other whiny faction who needs us to say sorry for fire bombing a cityduring a time of war or any other hard choice we have had to make...its funny how that works out Lau isnt it?

philbob

05-22-2009, 01:02 PM

It's very much todays world where a leader can be so strong that he admits mistakes of the past generations.

Now you have got your modern generation prestige that I am not so sure (after reading through this thread) you deserve.

Many many people in the world (esp. after Bush) think that US is, if I may, really the "Team America" full of arrogant asshats who would never do anything like this courtesy of acknowledgement. Obama's comment is a big big crack on the bad PR US has been getting lately.

It makes you look good again. Good is strong, evil is not.

who do you think desrves the modern pretige then? please enlighten us :bash:

Jippo

05-22-2009, 01:55 PM

Obama does, you don't.

philbob

05-22-2009, 04:10 PM

Obama does, you don't.

no he has not done anything to deserve it yet.

Also i think i missundertood your comment or you mine, i was refering to nation states not indiviuals

Lau

05-22-2009, 05:23 PM

then that STFU goes the same for the Europeans who want it for helping us during our war for indpenence and for the other whiny faction who needs us to say sorry for fire bombing a cityduring a time of war or any other hard choice we have had to make...its funny how that works out Lau isnt it?

I did not say Europeans or Americans should STFU, I was asking you if that is how you want it?

So in other words, all the Americans who call for more gratitude from europeans liberated by the US in WW2, should just STFU?

The "?" implies it's a question. ;)

philbob

05-22-2009, 05:27 PM

I did not say Europeans or Americans should STFU, I was asking you if that is how you want it?

The "?" implies it's a question. ;)

I want a mutual understanding and people to know how this goes back and forth and to be careful before you get critical over something ;) how do you want it?

11 Bravo

05-22-2009, 05:50 PM

@ Linedoggie

Nope. I am just smelling another case of Anti-Obama bigotry. If he had done what Reagan did, we would see an "OMG Barak Hussein Obama bows to Nazi Soldiers" outrage on mp.net. But if Reagan does it, he´s in the clear zone...

He has not even held his speech and people are acting as if he was about to surrender to Nazi Germany with 65 years delay...

Oh me oh my , you must be a young tard. Let's just say of days of old that when the great Ronald Regan went to that cemetary back then the demoslobs/media/lefty's went beserk.Bonzo goes to Bitburg was a punk band era song... but I date myself... and I see the hypocrisy of the left.

Jobu

05-22-2009, 06:55 PM

We were promised another Ronald Reagan, we got Ronald McDonald.

With every passing week I think more people are realizing what a naive idiot this guy is.

Breerman

05-22-2009, 06:58 PM

I think Obama is brilliant. I dont know why its so hard for world leaders to say "sorry". People will take it to their hearts and everybody can move along!

CPLHUNTER

05-22-2009, 06:59 PM

This has to be amazing while he's at it he should apologize to the Natives of the US for all the pain we inflicted on them. But what purpose would that serve again?

XShipRider

05-22-2009, 07:13 PM

It's very much todays world where a leader can be so strong that he admits mistakes of the past generations.

Now you have got your modern generation prestige that I am not so sure (after reading through this thread) you deserve.

Many many people in the world (esp. after Bush) think that US is, if I may, really the "Team America" full of arrogant asshats who would never do anything like this courtesy of acknowledgement. Obama's comment is a big big crack on the bad PR US has been getting lately.

It makes you look good again. Good is strong, evil is not.

Using terms such as "asshats" certainly earns you my respect in return. Touche. Now who is the arrogant one?

Lau

05-22-2009, 07:18 PM

I want a mutual understanding and people to know how this goes back and forth and to be careful before you get critical over something ;) how do you want it?

Sounds reasonable. Alltho' the two are not comparable at all, you made the comparison with you highly intelligent post;

dont forget saving there ungratful asses from a madman either:roll:

several mad men acutally....

Implying that the US saved the Germans and the rest of Europe from a madman, and all of Europe should be grateful and their gratefulness should stand in the way of any apology they may feel is in order.

Dont get me wrong, I agree the US and Soviet Union saved Europe from Hitler, but not all actions taken are justifiable due to the cause. Mistakes do an did happen, and an apology for those mistakes will do no harm.

commanding

05-22-2009, 07:59 PM

Lol, I've never heard even one historian express his concerns that the US of A could have lost the war in Europe in late February 1945. And just alike no historian would agree that bombing an already destroyed city which was overcrowded with refugees at that time would have been a contribution to military success.
Why not just speak out the facts? Germany's industry lay wasted in midst '44 already and further air raids had little to no military significance. The aerial bombing was nothing else than a punishment. You should ask yourself why the campaigns bore names like "Operation Gomorrha" since 1943. I'm not well-versed in the bible, but weren't Sodom and Gomorrha destroyed by the Lord for the sins of their inhabitants? p-)

The war was not just with Germany it was also with Italy and Japan. All of world war two, was not just about the individual theatre...it was a total conflict. The USA could have lost millions of soldiers invading Japan, or even if the USA had been required to drive all the way thru Berlin to the border of Russia. (had not the Russians fought like tigers all the way to Berlin and saved a lot of American lives in the process) Europe was a testing ground for the remainder of the war in Japan, as rightly it should have been. Saving lives of people on our side was what the object of the game was. Fire bombing, used in Europe was there after carried to Japan with horrific effect, saving American lives. (we saved a lot of Russian lives on that front)
YOu will have to find another bible scholar...not me.

Breerman

05-22-2009, 10:31 PM

Bombing Dresden in Eastern Germany was just to show the reach of the bombers to the Russians.

The Russian guys are right. Soviet Union won the war by making their great sacrifices. Western Allies were only able to land in France when the war in reality was over and Germany sent whatever little resources they had to the East so that the Soviets wouldnt roll over the continent.

PeterRJG

05-23-2009, 12:03 AM

The war was not just with Germany it was also with Italy and Japan. All of world war two, was not just about the individual theatre...it was a total conflict. The USA could have lost millions of soldiers invading Japan, or even if the USA had been required to drive all the way thru Berlin to the border of Russia. (had not the Russians fought like tigers all the way to Berlin and saved a lot of American lives in the process) Europe was a testing ground for the remainder of the war in Japan, as rightly it should have been. Saving lives of people on our side was what the object of the game was. Fire bombing, used in Europe was there after carried to Japan with horrific effect, saving American lives. (we saved a lot of Russian lives on that front)
YOu will have to find another bible scholar...not me.

Interesting. The Soviets (note the use of Soviets here and not Russians) fought like tigers to liberate their nation from an invader and then took the fight to the invaders on their own turf and won. I doubt saving American lives was part of their agenda.

Ngati Tumatauenga

05-23-2009, 12:28 AM

That's American revisionism for you. Taking 'Saving Private Ryan' as a rote history lesson.

budgie

05-23-2009, 04:15 AM

We were promised another Ronald Reagan, we got Ronald McDonald.

With every passing week I think more people are realizing what a naive idiot this guy is.

I truly doubt Obama supporters wanted another Reagan. Raise your right hand and say "I have no recollection of that..."

Ivan le Fou

05-23-2009, 04:51 AM

Just to show how Hamburg/Dresden looked like:

"In the autumn of 1940 London was blitzed by an average of two hundred aircraft a night for sixty-one consecutive nights until finally the tables turned. On July 27, 1943 nearly a thousand British bombers dropped over two thousand tons of bombs on Hamburg, most of them incendiaries, turning that city into a burning, melting quagmire of horror. The temperature reached one thousand degrees in the center of town, igniting the world's first firestorm. The superheated air rose so fast it sucked in outside air in the form of hurricane-strength winds which force-fed the fire still further and blew helpless people like leaves into the burning center of destruction where they actually melted into pools of burning fat. On the outskirts of the storm other people were stuck in molten asphalt, suffocating and igniting. More than 40,000 people died that night. In the early spring of 1945 the American Twentieth Air Force topped the RAF's record by burning Tokyo, starting a conflagration that totaled sixteen square miles of intensely populated city, killing more than 80,000 people [Forecast and Solution (http://www.nukefix.org/forecast.html), p. 644]."

What's wrong with saying: we are sorry for that.

At the time civilian casualties were something new, wars only used to be soldiers vs soldiers.
Wars couldn't be ended by precise strikes like now days, they had to be ended by: neutralising the army, destroying the economy and the industry and traumatising civilians by huge and bloody operations.

We should not only try to keep in mind what happened, why and how. But to look at these events with "modern" eyes.

Or maybe 40.000 casualties after one raid is okay for you. "well that's war y'know, only the result matters".

XShipRider

05-23-2009, 07:45 AM

What's wrong with saying: we are sorry for that.

Again, I'm not because I had no direct input on the strategies and/or tactics of the time -- I wasn't alive yet. That's why we have history books, to understand the waste of precious lives in what can only be termed an approximately 6-year siege. Maybe somewhere along the learning process a light bulb will come on so we don't repeat such tragedies.

At the time civilian casualties were something new, wars only used to be soldiers vs soldiers.
Wars couldn't be ended by precise strikes like now days, they had to be ended by: neutralising the army, destroying the economy and the industry and traumatising civilians by huge and bloody operations.

Your parable makes my point -- "...traumatising civilians by huge and bloody operations." Purposeful civilian casualties were not "new" in WW2 and only recently have become more scarce. Cities used to be sieged, sacked and burned -- civilians be damned. Past wars being army v army is John Wayne-ish, something Hollywood would like us to believe but balogna nonetheless.

We should not only try to keep in mind what happened, why and how. But to look at these events with "modern" eyes.

We do exactly that in history books. Hopefully we learn then demand some sort of reformation to preclude it from happening again. That is normal, else for the rest of our lives we should be hearing apologies from all nations for every real and perceived wrong inflicted on other nations throughout history. It is ridiculous to continuously want for apology from those who were not directly responsible.

Or maybe 40.000 casualties after one raid is okay for you. "well that's war y'know, only the result matters".

When the Navy shot down the Iranian airliner over the Persian Gulf that incident definitely required apology, reparations (to the extent possible - lives obviously cannot be restored) and changes in tactic. That was my government acting contrary to acceptable norm. The US apologized and offered reparations. It was the right thing to do for such a tragic loss of innocent lives.

Now, rehash the Iranian airliner incident without the US apology and reparations. Then decide 4 generations hence an apology is necessary? It is meaningless to those who have only history books tell them what happened. Then again, this day in age time does not seem to, as my grandmother once taught, heal all wounds without the touchy-feely, everyone needs therapy approach.

Descendants of the Booth family apologizing today to the descendants of the Lincoln family for murdering great great great grandpa is absurd. How can one take solace in an apology for an act they did not endure or precipitate?

Scale for any incident is relative. The A-bombs were tragic. Necessary? Historians will argue for eons. I side with the what's done is done crowd. Let's learn from our past and try in earnest not to repeat.

Toolhead

05-23-2009, 08:27 AM

Arnt there even reports how German schools are not teaching about some of the war crimes they commited anymore?

bull****:bash:

Ivan le Fou

05-23-2009, 08:30 AM

Wise words.

philbob

05-23-2009, 05:32 PM

you all are a little late that has been corrected nice try on trolling though

****tards

matthew.manhorn

05-24-2009, 03:19 AM

Gordon Brown should also apologize to the entire Europe for Neville Chamberlain's "war crimes".

Jippo

05-24-2009, 12:47 PM

Using terms such as "asshats" certainly earns you my respect in return. Touche. Now who is the arrogant one?

I take it you haven't seen the movie then, have you?

commanding

05-24-2009, 02:53 PM

Interesting. The Soviets (note the use of Soviets here and not Russians) fought like tigers to liberate their nation from an invader and then took the fight to the invaders on their own turf and won. I doubt saving American lives was part of their agenda.

I didn't say the Russians took the fight to Germany and kicked butt to save American lives....they did it to defend their country, also likely for retribution, and mainly to wipe out the Nazi regime and end the war...the saving of American lives was a byproduct of their extremel hard fought campaign and great tactics. I don't care if I call them soviets or Russians, just as I don't care if I call us Americans or Yanks, or Norte Americanos, etc.
We all know what the Soviet agenda was...but it DID save American lives, just as the American aggresive offensive against the Japanese in summer 45 saved Soviet lives.

commanding

05-24-2009, 03:00 PM

That's American revisionism for you. Taking 'Saving Private Ryan' as a rote history lesson.
Pretty much all nations are involved in revisionism. As the old saying goes, the winners write the history books, thus the repeating of what people are taught, is to be expected. Saving Private Ryan was a great movie, but a long way from being history, or even historically accurate. People who get their history lessons from movies, are all to common, but that is life for you.

Each persons mental version of history has to come from somewhere, as none of us were alive 200 years ago, and many were not alive during WWII, so the versions of history we accept, have to come from somewhere, be it books, movies, the internet, verbal accounts of people who lived it, etc. I myself prefer books and accounts of soldiers who served during that war.

Holmes85

05-24-2009, 06:53 PM

In the case of Dresden I believe it is still questionable. What industry the city of Dresden had was located on the outskirts, and not in the city center (an area that was heavily bombed).

Well, there are currently a number a military historians who argue the bombing of Dresden was unnecessary, since it held no military value. Dresden at that time was more of a cultural and artistic center of the country and had little military production.

Additionally, if we are also talking about the necessity for the atomic bombings on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I don't know whether that would be considered a war crime due to the circumstances, since we had little knowledge as to the aftereffects of the bomb, like radiation. If we did have knowledge of radiation, I highly doubt we would have soldiers charging into the blast zone as seen in test films.

As final note, I wish I could get an apology from the Former Soviet Union or Russia, but I highly doubt it due to my German heritage, even though I'm a German from Russia. Being a Volga German or German from Russia was bound to turn out bad with escalating conflicts leading to WWII, even though we had lived in the region since the time Catherine the Great allowed the Germans passage into the region. However, it was Stalin's paranoia that doomed over 100,000 Volga German to die in a death march to Siberia and many more deaths later on. Furthermore, I highly doubt that the Nazi invasion of Russia improved the conditions for the Volga Germans.