View Full Version : Israel to ban Naqba commemoration
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090524/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictisraelnaqba
JERUSALEM (AFP) – The Israeli cabinet on Sunday approved a draft law aiming to ban marking the Naqba, the "catastrophe" the 1948 creation of Israel represented for many Palestinians, a government official said.
The draft law is scheduled to be submitted for parliamentary approval next week and will propose punishment of up to three years in prison for breaches of the prohibition, the official told AFP on condition of anonymity.
The government's legal commission brought forward the law at the instigation of Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman's ultra-nationalist Yisrael Beitenu party.
Israeli Arab MPs immediately slammed the proposal, branding it the act of an "apartheid regime."
The civil rights association also attacked the draft law.
"For the past year we have witnessed a worrying deterioration in Israel of the right to expression and other democratic rights," association chairman Sammy Michael said in a statement.
"Commemoration of the Naqba does not threaten Israel at all. It is a legitimate expression of the feelings of individuals and an entire people," he said.
Yisrael Beitenu, Israel's third biggest party with 15 of the 120 seats in parliament, targeted Israel's Arab minority during this year's election campaign, adopting the slogan "No Citizenship Without Loyalty."
The Israeli Arab community comprises around 1.2 million people of the country's total population of about seven million.
They are descended from 160,000 Palestinians who remained on their land after the establishment of Israel in 1948.
They have voting rights and enjoy a better standard of living than Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza Strip, but are still the target of discrimination.
I sincerely hope Israel choose not to ban Naqba, it will only give the Palestinians more excuses/reasons to protest against the Jews and Israel as a whole.
Don't get me wrong, I can see why it makes Jews feel like the Palestinians are backstabbing them, they are. But is it not a democratic right to protest 'against' the nation you live in, or even the very existence of it?
GiladS
05-24-2009, 05:20 PM
They want to mark Israel's creation as tragedy? Very well, they can do so in Jordan or any of the other 21 Arab states that are out there.
They want to mark Israel's creation as tragedy? Very well, they can do so in Jordan or any of the other 21 Arab states that are out there.
But they are Israelis, not citizens in one of the 21 Arab nations out there.
GiladS
05-24-2009, 05:28 PM
But they are Israelis, not citizens in one of the 21 other Arab nations.
Then as Israelis they'll have to abide its laws.
Then as Israelis they'll have to abide its laws.
Absolutly. Now we are back where we started. Will this law not remove the palestinians (with israeli passports) right to protest?
As I wrote in my 1st post:
is it not a democratic right to protest 'against' the nation you live in, or even the very existence of it?
If you remove the right to protest, or even worse, single out a group and remove only this specific groups right to protest, is it not removing the very foundation on which we build democracies, the right to protest your government/nation?
Tikvah
05-24-2009, 05:51 PM
Absolutly. Now we are back where we started. Will this law not remove the palestinians (with israeli passports) right to protest?
As I wrote in my 1st post:
If you remove the right to protest, or even worse, single out a group and remove only this specific groups right to protest, is it not removing the very foundation on which we build democracies, the right to protest your government/nation?
If you don't like the country or don't think it should exist, then leave.
d_man
05-24-2009, 06:06 PM
Absolutly. Now we are back where we started. Will this law not remove the palestinians (with israeli passports) right to protest?
As I wrote in my 1st post:
If you remove the right to protest, or even worse, single out a group and remove only this specific groups right to protest, is it not removing the very foundation on which we build democracies, the right to protest your government/nation?
fundamentally you are right.
it is the right of every citizen to protest against the state against every subject he would like.
but not against the very existace of a state.
every state and democacy has the right to protect its self from those who wants it to cease its existance even if it is from within with the price of violating some rights.
and have no doubte that what the israeli arabs protest every year is the very right of israel to exist.
GiladS
05-24-2009, 06:11 PM
Absolutly. Now we are back where we started. Will this law not remove the palestinians (with israeli passports) right to protest?
Israel maybe a democracy, but that doesn't mean it's suicidal.
A democracy has a right to defend its existence and its character. Same is done with other Israeli laws that might be perceived as 'undemocratic' in other countries such as the Law of Return for example.
Protesting Israel's existence is considerd incitement and thus can be outlawed by a majority vote.
If you remove the right to protest, or even worse, single out a group and remove only this specific groups right to protest, is it not removing the very foundation on which we build democracies, the right to protest your government/nation?
They can protest the government's policies as much as they like but calling against the very country they live in is out of the question.
Israel has technichally been in a state of emergency since its foundation and in many other countries (even the most democratic ones) such acts under such circumstances would be counted as treason.
In other words Israel doesn't have the previliege to be open to such an extent and allow such behavior.
Sure the Arabs are a minority, they have the democratic rights and basic freedoms that every other citizen enjoys, yet it doesn't mean we can't mark red lines.
And believe me that under this law even any Jew who would take part in such activities will also have to face charges so there's no singling out of a certain group, unless this certain group choses to single itself out as it choses not to abide the decision of the majority.
They can protest the government's policies as much as they like but calling against the very country they live in is out of the question.
Israel has technichally been in a state of emergency since its foundation and in many other countries (even the most democratic ones) such acts under such circumstances would be counted as treason.
In other words Israel doesn't have the previliege to be open to such an extent and allow such behavior.
Sure the Arabs are a minority, they have the democratic rights and basic freedoms that every other citizen enjoys, yet it doesn't mean we can't mark red lines.
And believe me that under this law even any Jew who would take part in such activities will also have to face charges so there's no singling out of a certain group, unless this certain group choses to single itself out as it choses not to abide the decision of the majority.
Thank you for a more elaborate answer than just 'If they don't like it here, leave' kind of comments. :)
So is this Liebermans first step towards 'no loyalty, no citizenship' law? And is that also within what you view of as being acceptable in a democracy?
To me it sounds a lot like 'Either you support the government and whatever actions they take to protect Israel, or you will be stripped of your citizenship'. It gives the government unprecedented powers to strike any whom they feel are in the way of a given policy. A dangours path..
GiladS
05-24-2009, 06:32 PM
So is this Liebermans first step towards 'no loyalty, no citizenship' law? And is that also within what you view of as being acceptable in a democracy?
I voted for his party, enough said.
To me it sounds a lot like 'Either you support the government and whatever actions they take to protect Israel, or you will be stripped of your citizenship'. It gives the government unprecedented powers to strike any whom they feel are in the way of a given policy. A dangours path..
This is beyond the government's current policy, this is about the very character of Israel as Jewish nation-state which the Jewish majority wholeheartedly supports.
Israel isn't a perfect democracy (doubt that there is such a thing) but considering the geopolitical challenges it faces, it has done very well.
Moledet
05-24-2009, 06:40 PM
It's a populist law that isn't going to help even one bit.
The root of the problem is the education in Arab schools and not the way they express what they are taught.
d_man
05-24-2009, 06:41 PM
Thank you for a more elaborate answer than just 'If they don't like it here, leave' kind of comments. :)
So is this Liebermans first step towards 'no loyalty, no citizenship' law? And is that also within what you view of as being acceptable in a democracy?
To me it sounds a lot like 'Either you support the government and whatever actions they take to protect Israel, or you will be stripped of your citizenship'. It gives the government unprecedented powers to strike any whom they feel are in the way of a given policy. A dangours path..
while i dont think this is a step toward 'no loyalty, no citizenship' its certainly in the spirit of things.
i dont necessary support the law but it isnt that bad as people are trying to make out of it.
what the law basicly says is that every citizen of the country have to recognize the right of israel to exist, recognize her jewish charecter and serve her in some way whether its military or any other option.
i think this law is more of a fantesy as i dont see how anyone can inforce it but its not that demanding, it is basiclly the thing people expect you to do naturally in every country.
Hopefully this ban proposal will go through..
The hate can't go too far than its already is anyways.
They are marking Israel's creation as a disaster, while they're living in it. a bunch of leeches if you ask me..
If they don't like it here they can definitely leave.. it'll be better to send away some of the potential 'traitors'.
GiladS
05-24-2009, 06:46 PM
It's a populist law that isn't going to help even one bit.
I tend to agree...
The root of the problem is the education in Arab schools and not the way they express what they are taught.
Not just the schools but also at home.
This is beyond the government's current policy, this is about the very character of Israel as Jewish nation-state which the Jewish majority wholeheartedly supports.
I see. So if the non Jewish minority became a majority, or gained enough support amongst the Jews, their votes would not be taken into account during an election, if they were to elect a non Jewish anti Israel politician?
I'm talking strictly theoretical here.
Hopefully this ban proposal will go through..
The hate can't go too far than its already is anyways.
They are marking Israel's creation as a disaster, while they're living in it. a bunch of leeches if you ask me..
If I'm not mistaken, many of them lived there before the creation of Israel. So it's kind of hard to call them leeches don't you think?
GiladS
05-24-2009, 06:48 PM
I see. So if the non Jewish minority became a majority, or gained enough support amongst the Jews, their votes would not be taken into account during an election, if they were to elect a non Jewish anti Israel politician?
I'm talking strictly theoretical here.
Theortically their votes would be taken into account.
Theortically their votes would be taken into account.
But the 'no loyalty, no citizenship' law would make it possible to 'remove' those voters right to vote, since they vote for someone not loyal to Israel?
Hopefully this ban proposal will go through..
The hate can't go too far than its already is anyways.
They are marking Israel's creation as a disaster, while they're living in it. a bunch of leeches if you ask me..
If I'm not mistaken, many of them lived there before the creation of Israel. So it's kind of hard to call them leeches don't you think?
GiladS
05-24-2009, 06:59 PM
But the 'no loyalty, no citizenship' law would make it possible to 'remove' those voters right to vote, since they vote for someone not loyal to Israel?
Correct, but now you bring forth a completely different scenario than the one you described in you previous post.
For now there is no loyalty law... so lets say that in the last elections hell froze over and the Arab parties got a majority, they would have the most power right now in the Knesset.
Correct, but now you bring forth a completely different scenario than the one you described in you previous post.
For now there is no loyalty law... so lets say that in the last elections hell froze over and the Arab parties got a majority, they would have the most power right now in the Knesset.
And that would without doubt bring about tons of problems, and perhaps even the end of Israel as we know it, absolutely not something I would like to see.
What worries me is the 'them Vs. us' mentality, these new laws will only alienate the Palestinians within Israel even more, creating more and more hatred towards Israel.
Moledet
05-24-2009, 07:25 PM
Lau, don't let it trouble your mind so much. Even if it does pass the supreme court will deem it illegal since it's against the constitutional law for freedom of expression.
There's an incitement law in Israel and if they do break this law than they need to be arrested.
Lau, don't let it trouble your mind so much. Even if it does pass the supreme court will deem it illegal since it's against the constitutional law for freedom of expression.
There's an incitement law in Israel and if they do break this law than they need to be arrested.
Arh, I see. Well that's good to know, someone could have told me that earlier on, 'would have saved me a lot of trouble. ;)
TY.
kahn267
05-24-2009, 07:38 PM
The "naqba" is just another excuse for Palestinians to stir violence and express hatred of the Jewish state. Those that are Israeli Arabs shoudn't have the right, being a democratic country or not. It is not a protest against Israeli politics, its a protest against the state itself. Even then I doubt this law will pass because Israel being the free and democratic country wouldn't let it pass in court. The ironic thing is, if they were to protest against their Palestinian leaders.... well..... we all know it wont just be handcuffs.
What also needs to be said is that its another facade for the Palestinians to brainwash the world on their legitimacy - was there ever a recognized Palestinian state with its own currency, capital, leader before Arafat and before Israel existed?
So what are they exactly protesting the loss of? They are protesting the establishment of a justified country - if thats the case then why be citizens?
I could light my cigarette from the heat in some of these posts.
gilgoul
05-25-2009, 01:39 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090524/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictisraelnaqba
I sincerely hope Israel choose not to ban Naqba, it will only give the Palestinians more excuses/reasons to protest against the Jews and Israel as a whole.
Don't get me wrong, I can see why it makes Jews feel like the Palestinians are backstabbing them, they are. But is it not a democratic right to protest 'against' the nation you live in, or even the very existence of it?
The old anthem of the "repression=radicalization of palis" is old.
I don't agree with this law, that infringes on the freedom of speech and reunion.
There is no need for a law in those demonstrations, only a need to enforce that laws that already exist and break the bones of the rioters.
If I'm not mistaken, many of them lived there before the creation of Israel. So it's kind of hard to call them leeches don't you think?
... your point is?
They're living in Israel now.
Such treason, calling the creation of the same country that you're living in a disaster.. would have not be sustained by other countries.
juliannicholas
05-25-2009, 02:34 PM
This sounds like a perfect story for the BBC
Telmar
05-25-2009, 03:28 PM
Israeli-Arabs should look towards the future. They have it pretty good in Israel.
They cannot celebrate such an event that undermines the existence of Israel, of which they are citizens. And the desire of some (probably not all) to do this only fuels the debate over the loyalty of Israeli-Arabs.
... your point is?
They're living in Israel now.
Such treason, calling the creation of the same country that you're living in a disaster.. would have not be sustained by other countries.
And Israel belongs to them as much as any other Israeli citizen, right?
IMO, the main problem here is the fact that Palestinians who live in Israeli, and have been living there for generations, risk being stripped of their citizenship if their political views or wishes for the nation they live in, does not suit the Jewish majority.
But as Moledet said, there is no problem since these law will never go beyond supreme court.
You are mixing things. the new law ban demonstrations against the creation of Israel . i don't see what's wrong with this law.
You are mixing things. the new law ban demonstrations against the creation of Israel . i don't see what's wrong with this law.
Yes I am, on purpose, since both target Israeli-Palestinians.
What the hell is Israeli Palestinian? those arabs that have israeli citiznship, if they against the creation of the state, they can get out. what so wrong about it?
What the hell is Israeli Palestinian? those arabs that have israeli citiznship, if they against the creation of the state, they can get out. what so wrong about it?
They lived there before the creation of Israel, that's whats wrong with it.
gangplank6
05-25-2009, 06:07 PM
Israeli-Arabs should look towards the future. They have it pretty good in Israel.
They cannot celebrate such an event that undermines the existence of Israel, of which they are citizens. And the desire of some (probably not all) to do this only fuels the debate over the loyalty of Israeli-Arabs.
Well Said Sir!!!
Estopped
05-25-2009, 06:16 PM
They lived there before the creation of Israel, that's whats wrong with it.
That's the sad irony.
They've lived there for generations. How can you tell them to get out of their ancestral home. It really beggars belief.
They lived there before the creation of Israel, that's whats wrong with it.
SO? jews also lived here before the creation of Israel, and even before there was such thing as "paltianians". that's mean what?
That's the sad irony.
They've lived there for generations. How can you tell them to get out of their ancestral home. It really beggars belief.
Crap, no one told them not to live here. but if they don't want to be part of Israel they don't have too. we should stop give them unemployment benefits. and all kind of social services.
SO? jews also lived here before the creation of Israel, and even before there was such thing as "paltianians". that's mean what?
The term Palestinian has noting to do with it, you can call them Arabs if makes you feel better. Fact is they, those we now call Palestinians, have been around in what is now Israel since the seventh century. So you cant just throw 'em out, they belong there as much as the Israelis/jews.
Crap, no one told them not to live here. but if they don't want to be part of Israel they don't have too. we should stop give them unemployment benefits. and all kind of social services.
No, no one told them to live there, but they were born there, it is their land, their nation, as much as it is the land of the Jews who live there.
Listen, the old phrase 'if you don't like the smell....' does not apply here. They are citizens of Israel, they have the same rights as all other Israelis. Do you want to strip them of those rights?
gangplank6
05-26-2009, 12:32 AM
Listen, the old phrase 'if you don't like the smell....' does not apply here. They are citizens of Israel, they have the same rights as all other Israelis. Do you want to strip them of those rights?
Yes the old phrase does apply if the people to whom those rights were conferred are actively seeking to disrupt, destroy, and foment hatred in a nation that is trying to progress in a positive manner.
Doesn't Europe have some more room for these malcontents?
The term Palestinian has noting to do with it, you can call them Arabs if makes you feel better. Fact is they, those we now call Palestinians, have been around in what is now Israel since the seventh century. So you cant just throw 'em out, they belong there as much as the Israelis/jews.
No, no one told them to live there, but they were born there, it is their land, their nation, as much as it is the land of the Jews who live there.
Listen, the old phrase 'if you don't like the smell....' does not apply here. They are citizens of Israel, they have the same rights as all other Israelis. Do you want to strip them of those rights?
If they are against the existing of Israel, they shouldn't be part of it, they can stay at thier homes but they don't have to use the services that Israel give them. which is first of all freedom where they whould never find in any other nation. welfare services and so on...
The term Palestinian has noting to do with it, you can call them Arabs if makes you feel better. Fact is they, those we now call Palestinians, have been around in what is now Israel since the seventh century. So you cant just throw 'em out, they belong there as much as the Israelis/jews.
No, no one told them to live there, but they were born there, it is their land, their nation, as much as it is the land of the Jews who live there.
Listen, the old phrase 'if you don't like the smell....' does not apply here. They are citizens of Israel, they have the same rights as all other Israelis. Do you want to strip them of those rights?
BTW : jews lived here before the creation of the Islam, it's an historic fact that jews lived here 1200 B.C.
Holycrusader
05-26-2009, 04:56 AM
BTW : jews lived here before the creation of the Islam, it's an historic fact that jews lived here 1200 B.C.
Who actually cares what was 1200 B.C. ...
So who cares what happend 42 years ago in 67 who cares that they lived here for generations? there is an expire date for history?
So who cares what happend 42 years ago in 67 who cares that they lived here for generations? there is an expire date for history?
Yes there is, and most of us should appreciate it. Many nations would have very different population and 'owners', should the indigenous people always have the right to ownership.
You cant just turn all of South/middle and North America over to the native Indians, the mere thought is ridiculous.
Yes there is, and most of us should appreciate it. Many nations would have very different population and 'owners', should the indigenous people always have the right to ownership.
You cant just turn all of South/middle and North America over to the native Indians, the mere thought is ridiculous.
It's rediclous as much as bring back east jeruslem and the west bank to the palstinians.
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