Firefight at the Medak Pocket-Canadians battle Croatian's

[hist2004]

Firefight at the Medak Pocket

MICHAEL SNIDER with SEAN M. MALONEY

In September, 1993, Canadian troops stationed in an area of Croatia known as Vojna Krajina engaged in a fierce battle with Croatian forces attacking a predominantly Serb enclave. The engagement, little known outside of military circles, was not publicized by the Canadian government, which was hesitant to draw attention to the increasing dangers the country's troops were facing abroad. But this December, Ottawa will finally honour the soldiers who took part in that firefight by presenting them with a unit commendation. Maclean's tells the story of the battle:

PTE. SCOTT LeBLANC'S machine gun jackhammered against his shoulder as he fired at the Croatian troops dug in 150 metres away. Grenades exploded around him; bullets and orange tracer-fire screamed through the smoky air. The Croatians hammered the Canadians for 15 hours straight -- thinking the 30 soldiers from the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry would buckle and run like other UN peacekeepers had often done. But the Canadians, members of one of three platoons making up the Patricia's Charlie Company, held their ground. "They're trying to flank us," LeBlanc's section leader barked, sending a jolt of adrenalin through LeBlanc's exhausted body. Standing halfway out of his trench, the 19-year-old reservist swung his gun around and opened fire on the Croatians. "We could see muzzle flashes and threw everything we had at them," recalls LeBlanc, now a 28-year-old lieutenant who has just returned from Afghanistan. "After that, everything got real quiet."

The fierce battle took place in September, 1993, about a year and a half after Canadian peacekeepers had first arrived in the former Yugoslavia. Vicious fighting and appalling acts of ethnic cleansing made their task of disarming and separating the various combatants nearly impossible. Especially volatile was one mountainous region of Croatia called Vojna Krajina, or Military Frontier, home to an isolated pocket of some 500,000 Serbs. Fiercely nationalistic, the Krajina Serbs began to drive out Croats. But on Sept. 9, Croatian Commander Rahim Ademi launched an attack to capture an area of Serb-controlled territory in Krajina called the Medak Pocket. The UN, fearing that 400 Serbs living in four unprotected villages in the area were at risk of being slaughtered by Croatian troops, ordered the Patricia's into the area -- and into the biggest firefight Canadian forces had been involved in since Korea.

Five months into a six-month tour of duty, the Canadians were led by Lt.-Col. James Calvin, 41. The 875-man battle group was a patchwork of regular and reserve soldiers. In fact, 70 per cent of the front line soldiers were reservists -- a makeup that, Calvin says, could prove dangerous in a war zone. "Reservists are just as long on valour and courage," the now-retired Calvin told Maclean's from his home on Wolfe Island, Ont., near Kingston. "But you can't expect one to do the same things you expect from a regular soldier."

Still, after four months in the region, Calvin considered his force seasoned, especially with his hand-picked group of platoon leaders, including reservist Lt. Tyrone Green. The morning of Sept. 9 started nicely enough for the Vancouver native in charge of 9 Platoon, Charlie Company, with sunshine poking through the cracks in the boarded windows of the platoon's quarters, a two-storey concrete building on the outskirts of the Serb-held town of Medak.

But as Green dragged a razor across his chin, his morning shave was interrupted by incoming artillery shells. With soap still clinging to his face, Green, who is now a captain in charge of a Canadian Forces recruiting office in Vancouver, grabbed his helmet and raced to his M-113 armoured personnel carrier. At one point he was knocked down when a shell landed in a nearby ditch. He wasn't hurt, but four Canadians were injured in the shelling. "We counted 500 or more shells by the end of the first day," says Green. "About a dozen fell in our compound and one landed about 10 metres from the front door."

Not knowing where the shells were coming from, Green sent Sgt. Rudy Bajema to establish an observation post. For the next five days, Bajema watched as the Medak Pocket was attacked by more than 2,500 Croat troops, backed by tanks, rocket launchers and artillery. The Serbs finally slowed the Croatian advance on Sept. 12, but it was not until they launched rockets into a suburb of Zagreb, Croatia's capital, that the Croats relented and accepted a UN ceasefire.

Calvin, who didn't really expect the Croatians to live up to the agreement, ordered his troops to occupy the Croat positions. "We started taking fire almost immediately from the Croats," recalls LeBlanc. The battle raged for the next 15 hours. It was so intense that at night the light from burning buildings reflected off the soldiers' blue UN helmets, prompting them to wrap them in khaki-coloured T-shirts. Finally realizing the Canadians would not back down, the Croats sent word to Calvin that they wanted to talk. They had good reason to call a truce: the Canadians had killed 27 Croats while not taking a single casualty.

Joined by Col. Michel Maisonneuve, a Canadian officer from the UN headquarters in Zagreb, Calvin met with Ademi at his headquarters in a town near the fighting. Ademi sat on one side of the table, blustering and yelling at the Canadians. "He looked like he was enjoying the role he was playing," says Calvin. "Emotions were very high and I was irate my men were getting shot at." But after an hour and a half, Ademi finally relented and promised to pull his troops out at noon the next day.

The Croatian commander, however, was determined to terrorize the Serb civilians living in the area before he left. By 10 a.m. the next morning, a thick umbrella of smoke covered all four towns in the Medak Pocket as the Croats tried to kill or destroy everything in their wake. The Canadians witnessed scenes that still haunt many of them. "They could see what was happening from their foxholes," says Calvin. "My soldiers knew their role was to protect the weak and the innocent and they were absolutely incensed." But fearing the ceasefire agreement with Ademi would collapse if they advanced, the Canadians could do nothing but hold their ground.

Finally, when the noon deadline passed, the Canadians raced ahead, but immediately encountered a company of Croat troops behind a barricade -- and supported by missiles launchers and an ominous Soviet-era T-72 tank. Calvin approached the senior Croat brigadier; their conversation quickly became heated. The large, bearded Croat ordered his men to **** their weapons and point them at the Canadians. "We knew they were stalling so they could clean up evidence of their ethnic cleansing," Calvin recalls.

Calvin did not order his troops to fight, and instead tried another gambit. With the Medak attack almost a week old, the international media had converged on the area. As negotiations with his bearded counterpart deteriorated, Calvin held a news conference in front of the barricade and bluntly described the atrocities he believed were being committed by the Croatians. Realizing his country's reputation was in jeopardy, the Croat commander suddenly stepped aside. "The transformation was instantaneous," says Calvin. "He made a big show of removing the barriers."

The Patricia's then pushed on. Every building in their path had been demolished and many were still smouldering. Corpses lay by the side of the road, some badly mutilated and others burned beyond recognition. "We knew it was going to be bad," says Green, "but the things we found there were worse than anything we expected."

The Canadians documented everything they saw. Calvin's subsequent report helped convince the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia to issue an indictment in 2001 against Ademi, charging him with crimes against humanity. Made public one year ago, the report is a brutal list of murder and torture. Among the victims: Sara Krickovic, female, 71, throat cut; Pera Krajnovic, female, 86, burned to death; Andja Jovic, female, 74, beaten and shot. In all, the Patricia's found 16 mutilated corpses -- some with their eyes cut out.

The soldiers rotated home four weeks later, but there was no hero's welcome. At the time, Canadians were focused on the disturbing revelations that a teenager named Shidane Arone had been tortured and killed by Canadian peacekeepers in Somalia. Kim Campbell's Conservative government was also facing a federal election and didn't want the increasing dangers Canadian troops were facing in the Balkans raised as an issue. "When we got back to Canada a couple of weeks later, the first thing I did was call home," says LeBlanc. "My folks hadn't heard anything about the battle."

The force did receive high honours from the United Nations in 1994, when its members were given the United Nations Force Commanders' Commendation -- the first of its kind and only one of three ever awarded. And, this December, the Canadian government finally plans to honour the troops by presenting them with a unit commendation. But the honours only go so far. With vivid memories of the battle, many of the soldiers still suffer from post-traumatic stress syndrome.

As for Ademi, his case rests in legal limbo. After the indictment, he voluntarily turned himself over to the war crimes tribunal, proclaiming he had a clear conscience because "I did not order any atrocities." Last February, the UN granted him a provisional release on condition he return to The Hague when the trial proceeds, likely next year. Calvin may be called to testify. "Ademi should be called to account," he says. "No soldier should be able to get away with that."

Regards,
Hist2004

[robmika]

I know many of these guys that were there. The PTS was a very real thing that they barely received any help with. What they saw were innocent young children, old women and men, and others, that were raped and tortured and executed in the most SADISTIC of ways. That general and most of his troops should be locked up. It takes a troop with a very sadistic view to carry out the thigs that they did. This was not simply warfare or defending their country. This was the lowest possible level of the human soul in action. Period.

[2RHPZ]

Excellent post Hist2004, thanx a lot. There are not many stories from the early Balkan wars (1991 +). Robmika, please, don´t blame just one side of conflict. I know it is difficult to stay impartial even for people who are far away but it is important to say that atrocities were commited daily and by all sides. Some of my friends served in Krajina (UNPROFOR) and then in Bosnia. I have seen some amateur videos which were taken by Serbs and then captured by Moslims near Bosanska Krupa (NW Bosnia). I would never told that may happened in Europe - small children smashed by hammer, and more ... Generaly I agree that all nations from outhere don´t belong to our civilization.

[Bombtrack]

There was a special about the Medak Pocket on the CBC, here's the links to the video:

CBC The National Report Part 1 (http://www.seaforthhighlanders.ca/medak1.smil)
CBC The National Report Part 2 (http://www.seaforthhighlanders.ca/medak2.smil)

One of the NCO's at my unit fought there, I never knew until I saw the GG's commendation on his uniform at the Christmas Mess Dinner, he never talks about it.

[Saint]

Excellent read!
Thanks!

[scm77]

mattoigta, if those are the videos I think they are, you might want to put a "graphic content" warning. If I remember correctly theres some pretty grisly stuff in them.

[Bombtrack]

You just did it for me buddy

[noneck11]

I was a member of C-Coy 2 VP and was involved in the Medak Pocket Operation of Sept 1993.

I agree that there were atrocities committed by all sides, Although I personally only saw those commited by the HV.

If anyone has any questions concerning the Operation give me a shout by PM. If you want to read more check out "Chances for Peace" by Sean Maloney and John Lambias. It's probably the most accurate account as it recounts the personal stories of Canadian soldiers who served with UNPROFOR.

Mattoigta if your in the 48th say hello to M.T for me, he's probably the guy with the CIC you are talking about.

Cheers
Noneck

[2RHPZ]

I am very far away of any kind of propaganda. I would be accused of posting BS from some hardliners, but this online book isn´t nonsense.

http://www.hic.hr/books/creation/index.htm

[noneck11]

CAG while I don't think your on line book is BS. It is however a Croatian publication and must be viewed in that light.

I don't want to come off as pro Serb, after all I was held hostage by them at Rigoli in the mountains East of Pacrac. I just wanted to point out that all the belligerents in that conflict were equally vicious, however the only genocide that I witnessed was from the HV (9th Lika Wolves & Croatian Special Police).

Cheers
Noneck

[2RHPZ]

CAG while I don't think your on line book is BS. It is however a Croatian publication and must be viewed in that light.

I don't want to come off as pro Serb, after all I was held hostage by them at Rigoli in the mountains East of Pacrac. I just wanted to point out that all the belligerents in that conflict were equally vicious, however the only genocide that I witnessed was from the HV (9th Lika Wolves & Croatian Special Police).

Cheers
Noneck

Well, I understand what you mean. Please, check PM.

[Commander Cool]

Here is a very long and detailed account written by a Canadian officer who was there, it explains military strategy in the balkans, equipment of the various forces, everything:

http://www.cda-cdai.ca/library/medakpocket.htm

By the way is it true that this was teh biggest battle Canadians have been involved in since Korea, and if so, why did it receive almost no media coverage until much later in that CBC documentary.

P.S. Is there a reason why you guys have to discuss this through PM, I would much rather you just posted everything so that we can all read about it.

[2RHPZ]

P.S. Is there a reason why you guys have to discuss this through PM, I would much rather you just posted everything so that we can all read about it.

It was personal, indeed. I will post anything what may contribute to this topic, trust me.

Regards

CAG 147

[noneck11]

The reason that the battle recieved zero publicity was that the incident in Somalia with the Airborne Regiment was just breaking. Our politically correct masters in Ottawa did not wish to publicize the fact that Canadian soldiers go overseas and engage in combat operations and ultimately had to kill at least 27 soldiers from one ethnic armed entity.

As a result the recognition was denied the 2VP battle group for almost 10 years. The Comd in Chiefs commendation is a bull**** peice of tin, however to the reunion in Winnipeg for the parade was kick ass. To see all the faces from my old company was great....that and only that was worth it. Our Goverment should be ashamed at the manner in which they treat the men and women of our Armed Forces.

Cheers
noneck

P.S CAG I haven't recieved the PM yet.

[2RHPZ]

According to the news on Czech TV released yesterday, ex-Croatian general Mirko Norac, blamed for atrocities in Medak Pocket, will turn himself to Haag next weekend to face hearing by ICTY. He is now serving 12 year prison term for another war crimes commited in 1992 in the different part of Croatia.

Indictment ICTY - Mirko NORAC: http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/nor-ii040520e.htm

http://www.seeurope.net/images/stories/2004/05/seeimg1085562066.jpgGeneral NORAC

[Bombtrack]

As Noneck said, the government was still scared of the image the Forces were having as of late. With our troops in Cambodia having brothels and physically assaulting members of their parliament, to the murders in Somalia, to the hazing video tapes, etc - they figured the headlines of the battle in the Medak pocket would somehow be twisted into "Canadian Soldiers kill two dozen croatians" or some such ****. The politicians were too weak-kneed to acknowledge the un-PC image of Canadian troops actually fighting while peacekeeping.

[2RHPZ]

Interesting point related to this topic:


Third, last but not least, to all the others, -MY BROTHERS IN ARMS- and civilians, that one way or the other participated in this war, helped us to keep on fighting, organizing every thing a soldier needs in combat. They never saw any real action, but never the less, without them, we could not have won this war!! I also must react on the lies that circle the world about us; The First Dutch never took part in the action "Medak"(!!). Present there was only one Dutchman, one Hungarian and one German, of whom the Dutchman and Hungarian at that time already had Croatian papers.... Johan always told us and insisted on it that we would fight by the rules of the Geneva Convention!! The statement that Johan made in captivity was made under pressure as you can clearly see, and it was Serb propaganda. For else, if it was true, why was he murdered?? The day he was murdered, the Serbs told on the radio that he tried to escape from a car on his way to prison. Three days later the story changed into the one that he tried to escape from prison......Serb propaganda, as are the so called withnesses that say that they saw "blonde guys" that spoke a language that sounded like German..... The First Dutch was Demobelized on 15-03-1992, and only Johan, Rik, Joost and I stayed behind, and Rik went home a few months after that. Joost joined the 204 'Brigada Vukovarskih Veterana'. At the time of the "Medac" action I was working in Holland, and I came back to Croatia and joined the 9-th Brig. H.V. on 10-09-1993....two months after Medac......but still.....the Serbs saw me there!! We fought with HONOR, committed NO war-crimes!! Johan tought us well!!

This is an excerpt from the webpage of one Dutch ex-officer who fought alongside with Croats.

http://members.home.nl/satnikray/images/debriefing0000smallcut.gif
Place; Croatia(Gospic), H.V. (9-th.Brig. "the Wolves") time; winter '93-'94 , action; training with the company for a massive attack on enemy held fortified positions. The debriefing was led by J. Tilder, who gave compliments as wel as remarks on the complete "action". The faces of the soldiers are made unrecognisiable to protect their privacy. I am standing on the left with my sniperrifle, next to me Max, the group's dog.

http://members.home.nl/satnikray/images/S.S.G.-7.62%20sniper%20riflesmall.gif
Place; Croatia(Gospic), H.V.(9-th.Brig."the Wolves") time; winter '93-'94, action; training with the company for a massive attack on enemy held fortified positions. "This training was coordinated and led bij late lt. Johan Tilder. It was watched carefully bij the Brig. C.O. gen. M. Norac and a high ranking off. of the gen. staff of the Croatian army, and the press was there aswell". A very organized and disciplined training, that examend the readyness and skills of the scout-demolish- intervention company of the 9-th Brig. H.V.

[2RHPZ]

INFORMAT ION ON FOREIGN MERCENARIES
PARTICIPATING IN THE WAR ON THE TERRITORY OF FORMER SFRY
I PARTICIPANTS IN THE CROATIAN ARMY OPERATIONS AT "MEDAK POCKET"

Date: October 27, 1994

1. Rick XY: Born in Den Helder, the Netherlands, age about 27, finished the Royal Military School in the Netherlands. As a professional soldier he had served in the Dutch Army in the rank of sergeant. Towards the end of 1991 he was hired as a mercenary by the Croatian Army and stationed in Perušić. He was one of the mercenaries in the Croatian Army who committed war crimes against the Serb civilians and the wounded in the Medak Pocket. He was demobilized from the Croatian Army allegedly under the pressure from the West, whereafter he tried to obtain a Croatian citizenship. Having failed to do that, he has returned to Holland and is currently working as a truck driver in his hometown.


2. Raymond XY: Born in Roosen Dal, the Netherlands, age about 35. Towards the end of 1991 he was hired as a mercenary in the Croatian Army and stationed in Perušić. He was one of the perpetrators of war crimes against the Serb civilians and the wounded in the Medak Pocket. For some time he was a member of HOS and after that he joined the 104th HVO Brigade and took part in war operations in the region of Bosanska Posavina. After he had been wounded, he was cured in a hospital in Zagreb. He acquired a Croatian citizenship and is living now in Gospić with his wife Tanja from Velika Gorica.


3. Andre XY: Born in Lissen, the Netherlands, age about 29. He used to be a member of the Dutch contingent of UNO forces in Lebanon in the rank of corporal. Towards the end of 1991 he was hired as a mercenary in the Croatian Army and stationed in Perušić. He was one of the perpetrators of war crimes against the Serb civilians and the wounded in the Medak Pocket. He is currently living in his hometown in Holland.


4. Mark XY: Born in Amsterdam, the Netherlands, age about 24. He used to serve in the Dutch contingent of NATO forces stationed at the Seedorf base in Germany. Towards the end of 1991 he was hired as a mercenary by the Croatian Army and stationed in Perušić. He was one of the perpetrators of war crimes against the Serb civilians and the wounded in the Medak Pocket. Following demobilization, he returned to Holland. 5. Edwin Hoovens: Born in Vendlo, the Netherlands, age about 26. Used to be a truck driver in the Dutch Army. Towards the end of 1991 he was hired as a mercenary by the Croatian Army and stationed in Perušić. He was one of the perpetrators of war crimes against the Serb civilians and the wounded in the Medak Pocket. He was wounded while he was a member of the Croatian Army. He had returned to Holland wherefrom he allegedly left for Israel and is currently working in a kibutz.


6. Martin XY: Born in Ambon, Indonesia, age about 33, used to be a sergeant in the Dutch Army. Formerly a student of theology. Towards the end of 1991 he was hired as a mercenary in the Croatian Army and stationed in Perušić. He was one of the perpetrators of war crimes against the Serb civilians and the wounded in the Medak Pocket. After he had been demobilized, he returned to Holland and is allegedly now a monk in Arrnem.


7. Joost XY: Born in Den Boch, the Netherlands, age about 26. Used to be a professional soldier in the Dutch Army for 4 years, specializes in mines and explosives. Towards the end of 1991 he was hired as a mercenary in the Croatian Army and stationed in Perušić. He was one of the perpetrators of war crimes against the Serb civilians and the wounded in the Medak Pocket. Upon demobilization, he returned to Holland. He had been treated for alcohol addiction and is at present allegedly in Kazakhstan as a volunteer.


8. Tom XY: Born in Whoopaki Lake, USA, age about 46, fought in Vietnam as a member of the US Army. Towards the end of 1991 he was hired as a mercenary in the Croatian Army and stationed in Perušić. He was one of the perpetrators of war crimes against the Serb civilians and the wounded in the Medak Pocket. He abandoned the Croatian Army following the leave he had been granted in 1993.


10. Ellijas XY: Born in Hungary, served in the parachute regiment of the Hungarian Army. As a mercenary for the Croatian Army, he joined HOS and then the 104th HVO Brigade and participated in the fighting in Bosanska Posavina. He was one of the perpetrators of war crimes against the Serb civilians and the wounded in the Medak Pocket.


11. Johannes XY: Born on October 25, 1963 in Enkhuzen, the Netherlands. Attended the Royal Military School in Holland, served as an officer in the Dutch Army, graduated from the Special Military School, where he completed a reconnaisance and parachute course. He was a member of the Dutch Battalion of NATO in Germany, the Seedorf base. He stayed in Germany from 1985 to 1990 when he joined the French Foreign Legion. He left the Legion by the end of 1990 and returned to Holland. Towards the end of 1991 he was hired as a mercenary by the Croatian Army via a branch organization of "Croatian Relief" in Holland. His engagement as a mercenery for the Croatian Army was mediated by "Nederlandse Werk Gemenschap" organization, together with a pro-fascit party "Centrum Democraten". He arrived in Croatia on November 22, 1991. He was given his first instructions by the Ministry of Defence where he was received by Jure Martinović. Thereafter, he was placed at the disposal of the Croatian Army in Gospić where he reported to the then Commander of Military Police, Tihomir Orešković. He held the Croatian Army rank of lieutenant, deputy commander of the reconnaisance and sabotage detachment of the 9th Guard Mechanized Brigade. He was one of the perpetrators of war crimes against the Serb civilians and the wounded in the Medak Pocket. Killed?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Medak investigation

Final report of the United Nations Commission of Experts
established pursuant to
security council resolution 780 (1992)

Annex VII
Medak investigation

Under the Direction of:
William J. Fenrick


The Medak Pocket Operation comprises the military operations of the Republic of Croatia (Croat), United Nations Protection Force (UN or UNPROFOR) and, to a lesser extent, the «Republic of Serbian Krajina» (Serb) forces near Medak, Croatia, in September 1993.

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/comexpert/ANX/VII.htm#headII

[SerbPVO]

The operation wasn't covered up because of some incident in Somalia....

it was covered up as a part of an on-going demonization campaign against Serbia and Serbs everywhere.

I mean, who would believe we were the "bad guys" if suddenly, here in Croatia, a Canadian peacekeeping regiment engaged in combat with blood-thirsty Croats bent on wiping out the Serb population in Croatia?

Which they, thanks to international media blackout, succeeded in.

Today, there are hardly any Serbs left in Croatia, from a pre-war population of close to a million. While the Croatian population in Serbia was untouched throught out the war. Not one was forced to leave, let alone murdered.

So, who's the "bad guy" now?


By the way, honour to the Princess Pats for their bravery:)
You guys did a good job!

[2RHPZ]

The Medak Massacre: Canada's trial by fire

Untold story of this nation's largest military action since Korean War

By SCOTT TAYLOR and BRIAN NOLAN,
THE SUNDAY (TORONTO) SUN,
November 1, 1998

During Canada's UN peacekeeping stint in the Balkans, prior to taking a more aggressive role with NATO, some 100 soldiers became casualties, and were often put in impossible situations - taken hostage, mined, fired at, resented, threatened - all the while with imprecise orders on whether they could, couldn't or shouldn't fight back.

Perhaps the closest the Canadians came to war, or battle, was in the Croatian invasion of the Medak Pocket in the Serb-held Krajian area of Croatia in the fall of 1993. Yet, for political reasons, virtually no publicity was given to the Canadians' trial by fire.

Here, in the first of three excerpts of a starling new book focusing on Canada's UN peacekeeping in the 1990s, is the little-known story of Canada's role in the battle of the Medak Pocket.

The book, Tested Mettle, published by Esprit de Corps books, is by Scott Taylor and Brian Nolan whose previous book, Tarnished Brass, was a national bestseller.

At 6:05 a.m., on Sept. 9, 1993, the Croatian artillery bombardment rolled into the Medak Pocket like a wave of thunder. All along the 25- km valley geysers of earth and flame shot skyward. Lieutenant Tyrone Greene of the 2 PPCLI (Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry) was heading out the door on his way to the morning order's group when he observed a shell explode about 5 km away. He turned to go back inside to report the shot when a 152-mm mortar round impacted behind him and threw the big officer flat.

Seconds later, the rest of the Croat mortar battery opened fire in earnest.

Greene's platoon was to witness firsthand a devastating barrage that would crumble Serb defenses. From the outset, the town of Medak was the primary target for the Croat gunners. It was the Serb headquarters and a vital transportation hub.

Back at battalion headquarters in Gracac, LCol. Jim Calvin anxiously wondered what was happening north in the Medak Pocket. He could feel the ground shake and saw the plumes of smoke.

As the day progressed, Calvin was pressured by his anxious UN commanders in New York to provide them with a clear assessment of the deteriorating situation. He went forward in his APC to liaise with Lt. Greene and ordered the subaltern to set up an observation post to keep track of the battle. For the next three days, the men of Greene's Nine Platoon were the sole eyes and ears of the international community. It was essential that they hold their ground.

That evening, there was a significant shift in the Croat bombardment. The change in the fire plan signified the next phase of the Croat attack: Atop the ridgeline, Croat special forces and dismounted infantry launched a lightning pincer advance, rolling up the surprised Serb pickets in a series of deadly, one-sided firefights. Croatian armour columns then rolled down the valley.

Calvin was constantly calling Lt. Greene for updates as the UN Headquarters tried to plot out the political ramifications of the offensive. Every time Greene radioed in his reports, his position was immediately bombed by Croat mortars. It dawned on the young lieutenant that the Croats were using their radio "direction finding" equipment to zero in on his broadcasts, apparently mistaking his signals for those of the Serbians (who were, in fact, using land-line field telephones to communicate messages).

From then on, Greene only used the radio in emergencies, and tried to switch locations when he did so.

By the evening of Sept. 11, the tide of the battle began shifting as a major Serbian counter-attack was mounting. The gaggle of wounded soldiers and fleeing refugees along the main road in Medak was replaced by determined Serb reinforcements pushing forward into the pocket.

Buses, tanks and even armoured trains began pouring into the region from all over the Krajina. For the next 72 hours, the Serbs and Croats fought a pitched battle. The counter-thrust blunted the Croat offensive and both sides began digging in along their new front lines.

With the combat situation temporarily stalemated on Sept. 14, the UN began to press the warring sides for a ceasefire. International pressure was for the Croatians - clearly the aggressors in this instance - to pull back to the Sept. 9 ceasefire lines. To help force the issue, the Serbs soon demonstrated their resolve to escalate the strategic stakes. On the afternoon of Sept. 14. They launched a Soviet-built Frog missile at the suburbs of the Croatian capital of Zagreb. The heavy-calibre tactical rocket plunged harmlessly into a field, but Croatians quickly agreed to remove their troops from the Medak valley. The "buffer zone" created as the Croats withdrew was to be occupied by UN peacekeepers.

French General Jean Cot, the UN commander in Sector South, knew that for the ceasefire to take hold, oeacekeepers would have to be deployed, quickly and in as much strength as could be mustered. LCol. Jim Calvin and his Patricias were ordered to prepare to advance within the next 24 hours. To reinforce his two rifle companies (Charlie and Delta) which were already in the Medak Pocket, Calvin was to receive two companies of well-equipped mechanized infantry from the French army.

Calvin was uneasy that he might have to forcibly oust the Croat forces. The magnitude of this possibility weighed heavily on him.

At 2 p.m. the next day, Lt. Greene gave the order for his APCs to advance into the killing zone. As they moved forward, the troops could see how close the Serbs had been to losing the town of Medak itself. Battle debris and bodies indicated that the Croats had even established a foothold in the northernmost buildings before being beaten back.

Calvin's plan was for a two-****ged push up the valley. The Canadian companies would provide the left-hand column and the French army the right. Greene's Nine Platoon was the centre of Charlie Company's formation, with Seven Platoon right and Eight Platoon on the far left. Major Dan Drew's Delta Company would follow Charlie's advance and take up position to prevent any subsequent Serbian advances.

On the afternoon of Sept. 15, 1993, Private Scott Leblanc, an artillery reservist from Nova Scotia, was humping a C-9 light machine gun, as Eight Platoon advanced toward the little village of Sitlik. Off to their right flank, they heard the developing fire fight between Greene's men and the Croat defenders. Leblanc's section, commanded by Sgt. Rod Dearing, had just reached a low hedgerow when Capt. Dan McKillop signaled them to halt. McKillop had heard Greene's situation report on the company radio net and had spotted the Croat rifle pits about 200 metres to their front. The troops began digging in. Fire- team partners took turns shoveling. Leblanc was pumped up as gunfire continued to erupt across the Medak Valley floor and crept ominously closer.

Raging firefights

Capt. McKillop yelled to Sgt. Dearing that combat engineers were on the way with heavy equipment to assist with the trench digging. A Croat machine-gun burst cut short McKillop's comments. Dearing took cover behind his APC and started pumping rounds back at the opposite hedgerow. The burly sergeant radiated; his example was infectious. Young Leblanc switched his C-9 to automatic and loosed a long, withering burst toward the Croat muzzle flashes.

At dusk, with the firefights still raging across the valley, Maj. Drew shouted for Warranr Officer Matt Stopford to prepare a section of soldiers. Calvin had received a telephone call from the local Croatian commander, who seemed to want to negotiate a peaceful UN passage of no-man's-land.

The meeting was heated, with Calvin matching his Croat host's bluster and rhetoric. It was agreed that Stopford's and Drew's protection party would remain at the Croatian lines to ensure that the main battle group would cross without incident the next day. Calvin returned to his headquarters while Stopford set up a duty roster for his six soldiers and two APCs deployed in the middle of the road.

Almost immediately the Croats began moving into fire positions around the Canadian detachment. At point blank range, they set up heavy machine guns and Russian-made anti-tank missiles. "I guess we're not going anywhere for a while," quipped Stopford.

Throughout the long night, Stopford remained uneasy about his situation. He could see tracer fire being exchanged between Sgt. Dearing's men and the Croat forces in the village of Sitlik. Despite the intensity of that combat, he was more concerned about the activity of the Croat troops to his immediate front. They appeared to be a special forces unit, unlike anything he'd seen thus far in the Balkans. Well equipped, with an assortment of modern weaponry, these guys were all young, fit and extremely intense. The men Stopford was observing were part of the new Croatian army - equipped and trained by U.S. "advisers."

These Croats were unconcerned by the Canadian presence. Muffled explosions could be heard up the valley and occasional single shots rang out. From a cluster of buildings just to his front, Stopford heard sudden screams, punctuated by a burst of gunfire. A moment of silence followed by raucous laughter.

Moments later, a nearby explosion shook the ground and a farm building burst into flames. Stopford raced back to his APC and radioed headquarters. His voice cracking with emotion, Stopford said the Croats had begun "ethnic cleansing" of the Medak Pocket. "You've got to move now, " he yelled. "They're killing people. We can't wait..."

Four kilometers to the rear, LCol. Calvin didn't need Stopford's report to understand what was happening. Fires were visible everywhere in the valley. He radioed UN headquarters in Zagreb and requested permission to advance immediately. He was ordered to remain in location and gather evidence for use at a future war crime trial.

Stopford was furious. Leaving his APC, he walked towards the Croat position, where the little village was burning furiously. Gunshots still echoed, along with drunken laughter.

A drunken Croat soldier emerged from a building and staggered toward Stopford. A girl could be heard screaming inside the house. Draped on the drunken soldier's head was a pair of blood-soaked panties.

The Canadian stepped forward, chambered a round in his rifle and flicked off the safety catch. Shaking with horror and rage, Stopford wanted to kill the Croat so badly he could taste it. The Croat smiled, threw down his assault rifle and held up his hands - empty now except for the undergarment. To shoot him would be cold-blooded murder. Stopford couldn't do it. As he walked slowly back to his carrier, he could hear the drunken rapist laughing.

As the sun rose over the horizon. It revealed a Medak Valley engulfed in smoke and flames. As the frustrated soldiers of 2PPCLI waited for the order to move forward into the pocket, shots and screams still rang out as the ethnic cleansing continued.

Sharp at noon, Major Drew's Delta Company began to roll forward. The long line of white UN APCs bristled with rifles and machine-guns as infantry rode topside with the cargo hatches open. For the weary, embattled soldiers of Charlie Company, the armoured column with large, blue UN flags fluttering from the radio antenna was a welcoming sight.

However, the Croat defenders weren't impressed. Their special forces company that had deployed behind Stopford's detachment concluded their extra-curricular activities and took up fire positions to block the main road. Somehow the Croatian general's agreement had not been passed along to his forward troops. The Croat company commander was adamant that any attempt to cross his lines would be resisted with "all available force."

Calvin played his one trump card to avoid a slaughter.

About 20 members of the international press had tagged along, anxious to see the Medak battleground. Calvin called an informal press conference at the head of the column and loudly accused the Croats of trying to hide war crimes against the Serb inhabitants.

The Croats started withdrawing back to their old lines, taking with them whatever loot they hadn't destroyed. All livestock had been killed and houses torched.

French reconnaissance troops and the Canadian command element pushed up the valley and soon began to find bodies of Serb civilians, some already decomposing, others freshly slaughtered. In one village, Calvin saw the bodies of two young girls who had been repeatedly raped, tied t ochairs and then set on fire.

Rotting corpses

Rain fell steadily through the night as those few soldiers who had deployed into no-man's-land waited for a possible counter-attack from either Serbs or Croats. Finally, on the drizzly morning of Sept. 17, teams of UN civilian police arrived to probe the smouldering ruins for murder victims.

Rotting corpses lying out in the open were catalogued, then turned over to the peacekeepers for burial.

The emotional effect on the Canadians was incalculable. They had seen the decomposed bodies and lived with the putrid stench of death, and had helplessly listened to people dying and being killed.

However, as details of the casualties inflicted on the Croat forces by the Canadian "peacekeepers" became known, morale was roused. Officially, the Croats admitted to 27 of their soldiers being killed or wounded by the UN troops in the Medak. Unofficially, the tally was pegged at 30 dead and over 100 wounded.

It was the most severe action Canadian troops had been involved in since the Korean War. Yet they had sustained only four wounded and no one killed.

Senior defence bureaucrats back in Ottawa had no way of predicting the outcome of the engagement in terms of political fallout. To them, there was no point in calling media attention to a situation that might easily backfire. Besides, a general election was underway in Canada with former defence minister Kim Campbell now the prime minister. So Medak was relegated to the memory hole - no publicity, no recriminations, no official record. Except for those soldiers involved, Canada's most lively military action since the Korean War simply never happened.

[James]

7. Joost XY: Born in Den Boch, the Netherlands, age about 26. Used to be a professional soldier in the Dutch Army for 4 years, specializes in mines and explosives. Towards the end of 1991 he was hired as a mercenary in the Croatian Army and stationed in Perušić. He was one of the perpetrators of war crimes against the Serb civilians and the wounded in the Medak Pocket. Upon demobilization, he returned to Holland. He had been treated for alcohol addiction and is at present allegedly in Kazakhstan as a volunteer.


Watch out for this guy.

[James]

God bless 'em. Princess Pats' are some hard bastards.

[Lokos]

Good stuff.

Very good stuff.

Lokos

[ridenrain]

The Ghosts of Medak Pocket
The Story of Canada's Secret War

Written by Carol Off

http://www.randomhouse.ca/catalog/display.pperl?0679312935&view=print

[Dado]

The operation wasn't covered up because of some incident in Somalia....

it was covered up as a part of an on-going demonization campaign against Serbia and Serbs everywhere.

I mean, who would believe we were the "bad guys" if suddenly, here in Croatia, a Canadian peacekeeping regiment engaged in combat with blood-thirsty Croats bent on wiping out the Serb population in Croatia?

Which they, thanks to international media blackout, succeeded in.

Today, there are hardly any Serbs left in Croatia, from a pre-war population of close to a million. While the Croatian population in Serbia was untouched throught out the war. Not one was forced to leave, let alone murdered.

So, who's the "bad guy" now?


By the way, honour to the Princess Pats for their bravery:)
You guys did a good job!

Croats that live in Serbia never tried to make a "Republika Hrvatska Krajina" in Serbia.


As for the UN peacekeepers in Croatia, i can tell you 100% the orders were NOT to attack them.
Im not saying there were no gunfights or conflicts but an overall assault on UN by the whole Cro army is a science fiction.
Medak pocket was about rape, murder and all... im not denying it.
But Canadians got involved in it when the Croats were already finnished with it and what followed when they did get involve was simply a retreat with a little gunfire by some drunken Cro idiots.
There was no great battle....

[noneck11]

I wouldn't call it a great battle...but it sure as hell wasn't a retreat by the HV.

The 9th Lika Wolves were advancing on us and engaged us while we occuppied a hasty defensive position. This attack was a delaying action to stop the UN and CANBAT 1 (2PPCLI) from entering the pocket before the HV had time to clean up the evidence of their attrocities.

In order to do this they attacked us with 20 + 30 mm AA guns, direct fire from T-54/55's mortars and after the softening up, a dismounted infantry assault.

Croatian media acknowledge the deaths of 27 HV soldiers in this action, I would hazard a guess that it was a bit higher. No Canadian soldiers were killed and about half a dozen suffered various injuries from shrapnel and mine strikes.

Not a battle, but definitely a heavy contact.

Noneck
2 Sec, 7 Pl, C-Coy, 2PPCLI - Medak Pocket

[Lokos]

Dado,

The Serbs have been the ethnically dominant group in Krajina since the 17th century - when the Austrians invited them there to settle and provide a buffer against the Ottomans.

Why that region was included in Croatia on any map I shall never understand. Your claim to it is (well, was) totally idiotic. But, hey, now that you've ethnically cleansed the region, it's all yours.

And your point about Croatians in Serbia...

Do Croatians constitute a completely dominant group, ethnically speaking, in any single Serbian region? No.

Your analogy is flawed.

Lokos

[Dado]

I said all im gonna say on the subject of Medak pocket, you can belive me or not.


Why that region was included in Croatia on any map I shall never understand. Your claim to it is (well, was) totally idiotic. But, hey, now that you've ethnically cleansed the region, it's all yours.

When we declared our independacy the borders of Federal republic of Croatia became the borders of state of Croatia.



Do Croatians constitute a completely dominant group, ethnically speaking, in any single Serbian region? No. Your analogy is flawed.



My point was what if they were, and they tried to brake away from Serbia claming this is Croatia, taking a big chunk in the middle... trying to take costal cities in Montenegro just because they liked them (like serbs with Dubrovnik)... in order to create a "great Croatia". Now imagine they failed and what would happen to them then.
Croatian serbs rebelled against their own state in hope to become a part of "great Serbia".
I do realize that generalization of serbs is not fair. Not all of them were for war, some of them were drawn into it against their will.
I read all kind of posts on serbian forums backing this up.
After all what happend of course life together became impossible.

Little OT:
I remember a gorgeous young blonde that lived in my building (i was a kid in 1991), one day i stoped seeing her around, and the reason why i found out later... her family moved away because they were serbs. :(
My best friend in 1990/1991 was a serb and he still is today. Neither i or anyome else had anything against him because he didnt go around yelling "this is Serbia".

[Metak]

Croatian serbs rebelled against their own state in hope to become a part of "great Serbia".


I don't want flame war, but to make clear why Serbs rebelled so here are few facts:

Serbs have lived in the Krajina (Northern Dalmatia, Lika, Kordun, Banija, and Slavonia) since their ancestors settled these territories few hundreds years ago. After hearing of Croatia's intention to hold a referendum to vote on secession from Yugoslavia, Serbs in these territories conducted their own referendum in May 1991. They voted to remain in Yugoslavia if Croatia voted to secede from it. The referendum was not acknowledged as legitimate by the Croatian government, yet Croatia demanded that its own referendum on secession, held several days later, be recognized by the Yugoslav federal government.

Soon after Croatia declared its independence on June 25, 1991, Krajina Serbs were subjected to harsh discrimination by the Croatian government: they began to lose their jobs, their houses were destroyed, their political and cultural rights abrogated, and their national identity threatened. When in the summer of 1991 the Croatian armed forces began to threaten them, the Serb population either fled to Serbia or took up arms in self-defense. These Krajina Serbs are the children and grandchildren of the Serbs in Croatia that had been systematically persecuted and massacred by the Croat Ustashas and Muslim extremists in World War 2. Confronted with the extreme aggressiveness of the Croatian state and population, the Krajina Serbs were now rising to their self- defense under the motto: "Never Again."

[Dado]

I don't want flame war
Well i think its ok as long as we dont start insulting eachother.


They voted to remain in Yugoslavia if Croatia voted to secede from it

They lived in Croatia, if they wanted to live in Yugoslavia(witch at that time basicly meant Serbia) they should have simply move there. They had no right to try and secede from Croatia.
Croatia on the other hand had every right to leave Yugoslavia.



Soon after Croatia declared its independence on June 25, 1991, Krajina Serbs were subjected to harsh discrimination by the Croatian government: they began to lose their jobs, their houses were destroyed, their political and cultural rights abrogated, and their national identity threatened.

You are right about that. But they bringed it on themselves when they refused to live in Croatia. Kosovo showed us what we can expect from Milosevic. :-*$
We could saw what we were up against and hatred against the serbs was growing.


When in the summer of 1991 the
Croatian armed forces began to threaten them, the Serb population either fled to Serbia or took up arms in self-defense.

Maybe you are talking about poorly armed Cro police, while the serbs had the entire Yugoslav National Army arsenal behind them. :cantbeli:



These Krajina Serbs are the children and grandchildren of the Serbs in Croatia that had been systematically persecuted and massacred by the Croat Ustashas and Muslim extremists in World War 2. Confronted with the extreme aggressiveness of the Croatian state and population, the Krajina Serbs were now rising to their self- defense under the motto: "Never Again"

That always seemed to be the basis of their rebellion. Ustase are coming to kill us.... But it were the actions of serbs in croatia that polarized the croatian people against the serbs.

I know we will never agree on all of this. :|

We all lost the war, the only ones who came out the winners were war profiters and arms dealers....

[Lokos]

Dado:

That doesn't change the fact that Krajina should never have been part of the Federal Republic of Croatia. The Serbs there had a legitemate, historically backed claim that the Croats should have respected. Why should the Serbs of Krajina have been forced to go from a regional majority to an ethnic minority group in a hostile environment?

You are right, we will never agree on this. But Krajina is now just another rallying cry, and another 'injustice' in Serbian eyes that will inevitably mean blood spilled between Croats and Serbs sometime in the future. It is the way of the Balkans.

Lokos

[Dado]

That doesn't change the fact that Krajina should never have been part of the Federal Republic of Croatia. The Serbs there had a legitemate, historically backed claim that the Croats should have respected

Im not gonna get into the discussion of how the serbs settled into Croatia...


Why should the Serbs of Krajina have been forced to go from a regional majority to an ethnic minority group in a hostile environment?

Because they were living in Croatia, whos people werent hostile thowards them until the serbs rebelled.
I can still remember when Martic explained one of his reasons for rebellion:
"I couldn´t stand to look as our police was beeing forced to wear Ustase insignia(red and white checkered)"
Maybe that cop didnt pay attention in history... if he did he would have known that -red and white checkered- was our trademark long before ustase used it.
Same with curancy, anthem.... we are not gonna change them because serbs don´t like them. It´s OUR history.



But Krajina is now just another rallying cry, and another 'injustice' in Serbian eyes that will inevitably mean blood spilled between Croats and Serbs sometime in the future. It is the way of the Balkans.


I found it disturbing that some people still feel that way.
"Balkans" is a metaphor witch croats left behind when we solved our issues with the serbs once and for all. Don´t come here looking for war, we are no longer armed with just hunting rifles and home made weapons...

Anyway you got enough problems already:
Serbia and Montenegro will soon become just Serbia, then Serbia but without the Kosovo, then the Vojvodina issue(hungarians).. in Bosnia, Republika Srpska is doomed, its just a matter of time when Europe will terminate the existance of a country within a country created by "Dayton agreement".

[Lokos]

If they abolish RS, they will have a new war on their hands.

And your claim to Krajina (you are aware what the actual word means and connotates, aren't you?) was non-existent. I repeat: it should never have been within the borders of the Croatian state. Krajina hasn't been Croatian since the early 17th century. One moment these people are in the Serbian dominated Yugoslavia, then they're stuck in friggin' Croatia. They had every right to remove Krajina from Croatian control.

Regarding your other point...

If we 'come for you again' (not going to happen in the short term, of course), it won't be with eighteen year old conscripts pissing their pants while their homeland collapses all around them. It won't be with an ethnically mixed force struggling to maintain cohesion in the face of staggering desertions and a twisted command structure. The Serbian military of today is a different sort of beast.

Furthermore:

1) Hungarians constitute perhaps 16% of Vojvodina's population. Were you thinking they were a majority?

2) Montenegro can do whatever it wants. I feel sad that so many Montenegrins have chosen to pursue their own non-existent national identity - but such is their choice. If they don't want to be Serbs, they can be whatever they want for all that I care. Only those who feel Serbian should wear the mantle. It is a proud heritage, and not meant for those who cannot honor it.

Lokos

[Metak]

[Maybe you are talking about poorly armed Cro police, while the serbs had the entire Yugoslav National Army arsenal behind them.


That is not true. I must say it because my cousin was conscript in JNA and heavily armed Croatian policemen surrounded Army barracks. JNA soldiers inside didn't have water and power supply, not even enough ammo.
Croatian officers in JNA simply gave all the equipment in their units to newly formed Croatian forces. Whole 32. Corpse was given to Croats, then two best anti armor brigades etc...Also, Croats were getting large quantity of weapons from foreign countries. JNA has captured some of it - airplane full of R-4 rifles and other equipment.
Serbs didn't have entire JNA for one more reason -president of Yugoslavia and supreme commander of the armed forces was Croat Mesic, commander of Air Force was Croat, commander of Navy Slovenian and commander of Army half Croat half Serb.


[I can still remember when Martic explained one of his reasons for rebellion:
"I couldn´t stand to look as our police was beeing forced to wear Ustase insignia(red and white checkered)"

Don't forget Doctor Franjo Tudjman and his statements which led to Serbian reaction. Founder of the HDZ party, founder and president of the new Independent State of Croatia, the Tito's partisan general, latter the virulent croatian nationalist (sentenced and jailed by Tito's communist goverment), writer of book "Wastelands of Historical Truth" in revisionist history (he claimed that WW2 Holocaust over Jewish people did not take place, as well as the genocide over the Serbs in the WW2 NDH. He said, maybe something like that happened, but Jews and Serbs were guilty for it themselves). He had some pro-nazi statements like "he is glad his spouse is neither Jew, nor Serb".

[Dado]

We came to a end of discussion from my side on "krajina" issue.
The word means nothing to me because only the serbs called that area in Croatia, Krajina. I would of tought you would know this....
Any further discussion on this topic is useless.


If they abolish RS, they will have a new war on their hands.


From what i have read serbs from serbia don´t care about RS. They got enough problems of their own (economical ones).
Serbian refugges from Croatia are treaded like dirt, called cowards ....
Serb people themselves seem to be split into 2 groups. Just look at the places like Serbiancaffe and B92 forums.



The Serbian military of today is a different sort of beast.

This comment almost made me start a flame war.... Think about something before you post it.


Serbs didn't have entire JNA for one more reason -president of Yugoslavia and supreme commander of the armed forces was Croat Mesic, commander of Air Force was Croat, commander of Navy Slovenian and commander of Army half Croat half Serb.

Only the serb generals and Milosevic had control over JNA. Mesic was frightend for his life, he coudnt order anyone anything. Or did Mesic oreder an attack on Vukovar?
If croats/slovenians had control over JNA then why is the
WHOLE ex-YU airforce, navy and moast of tanks still in serbia and montenegro?
Get real man.


Don't forget Doctor Franjo Tudjman and his statements which led to Serbian reaction. Founder of the HDZ party, founder and president of the new Independent State of Croatia, the Tito's partisan general, latter the virulent croatian nationalist (sentenced and jailed by Tito's communist goverment), writer of book "Wastelands of Historical Truth" in revisionist history (he claimed that WW2 Holocaust over Jewish people did not take place, as well as the genocide over the Serbs in the WW2 NDH. He said, maybe something like that happened, but Jews and Serbs were guilty for it themselves). He had some pro-nazi statements like "he is glad his spouse is neither Jew, nor Serb

I see you didn´t read the book.... he didn´t deny the genocide. He only denied the numbers of killed by the ustase. Instead of 350.000/500.000 how much serbs claim were killed he said that the real number was more about 70.000

The serbian who wrote a book on Jasenovac claiming it a was a bigger concetration camp than Auschwitz, later more or less admitted he lied(he got cought in a lie) in it to a serbian reporter who interviewd him(can be found on the net). And that book was used to teach about Jasenovac in ex-Yu!


And don´t forget that you brought Milosevic to power in Serbia long before we got Tudjman. Tudjman got elected on the basis of opposing Milosevic and his politics.


Seya around.

[Lokos]

1) Why did 'The Serbian military of today is a different sort of beast' nearly make you want to start a flame war?

You think the VSCG is still a relic from the 70's, staffed by conscripts who hate the institution they've been forced to serve in, using tactics only suitable for a mass army? No, we've changed - evolved, even. The Serbian army of today is a very effective state instrument, as opposed to the JNA, which was a fumbling, ineffective concentration of fools and their tools.

2) We'll simply have to agree to disagree about Krajina.

3) I was not neccessarily referring to Serbia proper going to war over RS. In fact, I was talking about Bosnian Serbs going to war over any dissolution of RS. Giving up Republika Srpska would mean that a bloody, four year war was for nothing - and I don't see anyone in either camp admitting to that any time soon. But trust me, if Paddy 'The Compensator' Ashdown abolishes RS, he (and the rest of Bosnia) will have a **** storm on their hands.

And, FYI, most Serbians on the net are 1) in the diaspora 2) relatively affluent middle class folks who simply want stability and consistency in their lives. Most average Serbs in Serbia, on the other hand, have a very specific view regarding more territorial losses for the Serbian people. I don't think I have to outline that view - your imagination can probably do a good enough job all by itself.

Lokos

[Dado]

Why did 'The Serbian military of today is a different sort of beast' nearly make you want to start a flame war? You think the VSCG is still a relic from the 70's, staffed by conscripts who hate the institution they've been forced to serve in, using tactics only suitable for a mass army? No, we've changed - evolved, even. The Serbian army of today is a very effective state instrument, as opposed to the JNA, which was a fumbling, ineffective concentration of fools and their tools.


Maybe your special forces are worth something but i now nothing about them, and when i do hear/read something about them its related to serbian mafia....
The rest of your army is at a same state as ours.
Planes are grounded to a lack of spare parts(fuel maybe the issue too im not sure), you are getting rid of extra tanks, mainenence
(odrzavanje <--- neznam tocno kak se na eng. pise) as general is a problem.
Lack of modern technology is present(you bought nothing major since ex-YU got Mig-29´s in 1989).
You have only a few Mi-24, and Gazelle is too porly armed and structurally weak for combat.
Good old Mi-8´s need upgrading... we started upgradiong ours.
Mig-21 and the rest of ex-Yu aviation are usless for air domination and significant ground attacks.
Mig-29 if any surived the bombing are older versions, still good aircraft tough...
Anti-aircraft systems are too old ---> Sam-2, Sam-6, Sam-7 and Sam-9 .
You should have taken S-400 from the russians when they offerd it to you.

T-55 are for scrapyard.
M-84´s are good but could use upgrading to M-84ab1 model you developed or total replacment with newer tank model, but that costs alot of money...
Still any tank is worthless if you dont have the control of the sky.
M-80 transport also is for scrapyard(dunno if you did any upgrades on them).
M-60 transport --> scrapyard
Basicly all armor except M-84 should be dumped without tought.

122mm (mobile s21 gvozdika) howitzers proved to be too small of caliber in YU war.
Maybe you bought/developed mobile 155mm ones i don´t know?
Still artillery shoud be modernized so it can be used in a modern battlefeild.
I don´t belive serbian artillery has abilities of using guided ammo ...

The requests for civilian army service are constantly growing.


I was not neccessarily referring to Serbia proper going to war over RS. In fact, I was talking about Bosnian Serbs going to war over any dissolution of RS. Giving up Republika Srpska would mean that a bloody, four year war was for nothing - and I don't see anyone in either camp admitting to that any time soon. But trust me, if Paddy 'The Compensator' Ashdown abolishes RS, he (and the rest of Bosnia) will have a **** storm on their hands.


I think all ethnic groups in Bosnia had enough of war. The termination of RS will be peacefull and slow. One step at a time.... it wont happen over night.
One day all 3 ethnic groups will serve in the same army and live in one state and that will be a intresting site to see.


And, FYI, most Serbians on the net are 1) in the diaspora 2) relatively affluent middle class folks who simply want stability and consistency in their lives. Most average Serbs in Serbia, on the other hand, have a very specific view regarding more territorial losses for the Serbian people. I don't think I have to outline that view - your imagination can probably do a good enough job all by itself.


But are they really ready to go to war or send their children?
By this i mean real WAR not an attack on the guerilla armed albanians in Kosovo. I don´t think so.
People with the bigest mouth and most verbal courage never saw the front lines. The ones who took part in the real fight, thank god they are alive and prey it never happens again.

[Lokos]

Dado,

You're right, our military is in a bad way compared to many others around the world. But I was talking about a Balkans context - and we're still very strong compared to other Balkans states. Also, we have some of the best light infantry to be had anywhere.


I think all ethnic groups in Bosnia had enough of war. The termination of RS will be peacefull and slow. One step at a time.... it wont happen over night.
One day all 3 ethnic groups will serve in the same army and live in one state and that will be a intresting site to see.

I've talked to many Bosnian Serbs and many Bosnian Serb veterans of the 1991-1995 war. They *hate* the Bosnians and the Croats. The co-existence thing is just not happening in the same state. There is *no* desire for integration with BiH. Peaceful and slow? Well, define peaceful and slow. Maybe in a century or two. The longer it takes, the less likely it is that it will ever happen. And it's not going to happen any time soon.


But are they really ready to go to war or send their children?
By this i mean real WAR not an attack on the guerilla armed albanians in Kosovo. I don´t think so.
People with the bigest mouth and most verbal courage never saw the front lines. The ones who took part in the real fight, thank god they are alive and prey it never happens again.

Come on, you know us better than that. We've never backed down from a war. The army and the church are the most trusted institutions in the state. We've had to become a very violent, very militarized society to survive. So, yes, I think that if it came down to it there is a will to fight in my people. In fact, a good war might do us some good - but don't tell anyone I told you that. ;)

Personally, I don't want to fight in yet another war, so here's hoping one doesn't break out any time soon. But you never know in the Balkans.

Lokos

[Dado]

And who do you plan fighting?

[Ratman]

Excellent post. Intelligence under fire exhibited by Canadian soldiers and officers. See, the UN can and does have its place.

[Lokos]

I don't know, Dado, we'll do a lucky draw and let Croatia know by e-mail if it's the lucky winner. ;)

Lokos