What is wrong with American Education?

[Umbro2914]

This should be the main issue in America, but its often overlooked.
1,000 of dollars are spent per student in education, yet they speak like this girl [Starts at 1:30]

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/LMASMzbSPyw (http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/LMASMzbSPyw)
You dont have to watch the whole clip, as it is unrelated to the topic I present. However the girl who introduces the guest speaker is atrocious.

Why is it that children in Europe etc often speak two languages fluently and have mastered math and sciences by the time they finish high school; while many Americans can hardly speak English properly.

I dont mean to hate, because I am a student myself; but I can attest to the fact that such an example as presented above is not isolated, but rather common in American Public Schools.

Input welcome.

[MoFo]

Why do you hate freedom?

[Jobu]

She's no worse than Robert Gibbs.

[Mofreaka]

He has delivered many babies, delivered many babies, and delivered MANY BABIES!

[Gleipnir]

Lack of education? Nawww, she's just got style, she's got flava.

[Bro Jangles]

Hay, we aint un educated. them schols make us plenty smart. aight?

[khukuri]

Im not the first defendant of American students, but its clear that she shat her self, many teens regardless of how clever they are do that even if they are speaking in front of a crowd consisting of their classmates.

[Jobu]

Meet the next Miss South Carolina!

[Henry's Fork]

What is wrong with American Education?

More things than can be listed here in a 24 hour period.

other side of the coin: You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink it. AKA: Alot of todays youth just dont give a flying @#%& about their edumicashuns. And that attitude need to be changed first in the HOME.

[Soldat_Américain]

First we need to start teaching languages at a younger age. The DC school system is a joke, that's a proven fact and it's horrible. I honestly think that Federal and States governments only participation in the education system should be the checkbook, no mandated test BS. Both screw up and take money away from school boards. 2nd...these days everyone gets to go to college...it shouldn't be that way. But we're behind, I don't know exactly why.

[Kilgor]

How about the pampered arsehole mentality of students that don't study hard and see no need to improve themselves ?

[Dominique]

Hell, look at the way some people type on this board, and you wonder why they can't speak proper English?

[Hollis]

Hell, look at the way some people type on this board, and you wonder why they can't speak proper English?


LOL, I was going to say, she spent too much time on the internet. p-)

[Smok]

I met some people from USA and I can tell that they are good people but they don't have general knowledge. Yes - they have specialistic informations, but they have very "narrow" view of the world. For example they didn't know what the gothic is. They were very good at some "small part" of knowledge, but that was all.
I remember group of US tourists watching Wroclaw's cathedral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrocław_Cathedral) and their words "oh that must be a hundred years old or so".
BTW I like you - US people, but your beer is pathetic. ;)

[NineLine]

Why is it that children in Europe etc often speak two languages fluently and have mastered math and sciences by the time they finish high school; while many Americans can hardly speak English properly.Because in Europe you can travel 50 miles and be in two different countries with two different languages. In some states you can 50 miles and not even cross counties. Different cultures and different education system. Do I think education in America is good? I think it is OK, but if you show initiative and effort you can get a great education either way. Of course you have to willing to do that..most American kids are spoiled and have a world view the size of a small grapefruit. Ever listen to drunk America college students try to talk about foreign policy? You'd learn more by watching a monkey **** a coconut....and these are the assholes who voted in the last election.

In defense though, Alot of people in the rural midwest in all honesty are good people...work a hard blue collared life...and are not educated and don't speak great english...does that make them idiots? No. Does that make them bad people? Of course not. Just raised in a different area. Europe is also not the beacon for all societies to follow. I think Americans grasped that concept...oh say 232 years ago....

[Dominique]

The American education system is pathetic. It tends to be geared toward the lowest common denominator, and unless you're lucky enough to get into a "gifted program", or have parents who have the time to provide you with a slightly larger world view, you get a Mc-education, just enough to get you out the door. And the reason US beer sucks is it's highly regulated.

[Soldat_Américain]

The American education system is pathetic. It tends to be geared toward the lowest common denominator, and unless you're lucky enough to get into a "gifted program", or have parents who have the time to provide you with a slightly larger world view, you get a Mc-education, just enough to get you out the door. And the reason US beer sucks is it's highly regulated.
I was so glad GATE wasn't around in High School...in elementary school I had a learning disability and overcame that through the Resource Specialist Program...one of the fastest to ever get out of that program...GATE was kind of around in Middle School but not to the extent it was in elementary school. Then I got into the accelerated program at my high school which was for the top 100 students in the class for our freshman year and it was a blast with all the projects we had to do. But in other areas GATE is completely different due to funding where those kids don't have class with everyone else...you know how Malcom ends up with all the smart kids...it's like that. Like I'm all for having a difference...that's why I was in Honors classes throughout the entire time in High School...it also helps going to one of the top public schools in the country...but then if you went to the city to my south the school system was in ruins. And even at my school you still had plenty of the people that didn't give a damn and somehow went to college...because that's just how life works in this country...everyone gets to go to University.

[JJC]

A single video of a nervous girl with ghetto language background can not explain the complexity of U.S. education system in all 50 states. Besides, language skill alone does not say much about a person's scholastic achievement. You can find students that have great communication skills but are air heads and you can find students that have broken English but are talented.
Socio-economic status, ethnic backgrounds, immigration, states, cities, towns, all play some role in the outcome of individual's education and the quality of education in the U.S. We have no centralized education system like in many countries where the federal government has control from top to bottom.
In NYC you have public schools who struggle to educate first or second generation immigrant students who come from working class families, and you have public schools like Stuyvesant or Brooklyn Tech that are top notch.

[Hollis]

I agree with DOM but also it depends on the state and more specifically the school district.

A big problem is on how schools are funded, here in Oregon. That has lot to do with class size, programs, overall quality of education.


One kid does not speak for all the schools or all the students. Listening to other parents in other states, as bad as I may think our local school system is, compared to theirs it is great.

One High School that I went too, says 80% of their graduates go on an graduate from college. Look at the Lane Tech Web site. (Chicago)

[Fallap]

If you knew how dumb and unintelligent youth in Denmark is (I dont count in because Im super intelligent)

A few examples from my highschool class:

1. One girl is aged 18, and can barely speak word of english. It also came as a big surprise to her, that England and the United Kingdom were pretty much the same! (I know that UK = England, scotland & wales)

2. Generally people who don't know jack sh*** about the most basic history. Yet have their heads full of Paradise Hotel and Who ever got talent. :/

[NineLine]

A single video of a nervous girl with ghetto language background can not explain the complexity of U.S. education system in all 50 states. Besides, language skill alone does not say much about a person's scholastic achievement. You can find students that have great communication skills but are air heads and you can find students that have broken English but are talented.
Socio-economic status, ethnic backgrounds, immigration, states, cities, towns, all play some role in the outcome of individual's education and the quality of education in the U.S. We have no centralized education system like in many countries where the federal government has control from top to bottom.
In NYC you have public schools who struggle to educate first or second generation immigrant students who come from working class families, and you have public schools like Stuyvesant or Brooklyn Tech that are top notch.

Bingo. It is not uncommon for Americans when moving into a new area to settle into an area that is known to have a higher education standard. I think the way we compensate our educators is also jacked up. Becoming a teacher has never been a well paying profession in the states.

... and as for everyone getting into college...yeah there are plenty of kids that get in...but well over half of my freshman class did not finish college.

UNC, USC, Stanford, Penn State, LSU, Texas, U. of Ohio =/= podunk **** college in the sticks. Most corporations understand that.



Look at the Lane Tech Web site. (Chicago)

Been there, a friend lived down the street..HUGE ****ing school.

[click]

Hell, look at the way some people type on this board, and you wonder why they can't speak proper English?

u sayin eye dont got gud gramar!

[Soldat_Américain]

u sayin eye dont got gud gramar!
dey gots gud 'merican skoos in pologne?

[click]

dey gots gud 'merican skoos in pologne?

eye nevr went tu anee 'merkan skols hear in polin. eye wuz homskold. kant u tel.

[wildcat]

I know I could go to intercity UK and find kids just as dumb, talking poorly, it is the environment they live in. as for we in Europe speak 2 languages, that just BS. I lived in Spain and Germany (with the Army), found there were many people in Germany did not know Spanish or English. Some countries in Europe have more than 1 language like Belgium and Switzerland. I learned my Spanish living and working in Spain for 2 years.

I am involved with a youth program a lot of the kids speak good Spanish(they are non Hispanic too). So I really do not agree with the statement made in the first post. But I do think the Education standard for math and Science in the US needs to be raised.

[GTX-Typhoon]

I have never been to an American school but my thought is that education in the USA is OK to rather good.

The girl in the clip is just very nervous. And who wouldnt? I get nervous when i need to hold a presentation and especialy the first few times i did. And she had a senator being part of the public plus camera's.

I give her kuddo's for managing it pretty well.

[hsh2]

But I do think the Education standard for math and Science in the US needs to be raised.

That would be start no doubt. And learn and recite poetry by heart regularly during the whole school time as the french are doing. Improves memory, speech and confidence.

Offtopic: Btw we don't have just more than 1 language we have 4 languages...and within these 4 languages dozens, i repeat DOZENS of very different dialects some of which are barely mutually understandable and even gramatically different. :lol:

[Dmitriev]

I've studied in schools in Peru, Ukraine, and Illinois, USA. If we compare thier schools the results will be very different. In any case, I believe the major problem of American schools is the fact that too much is permitted and too many ridiculous rules are aplied. Many teachers treat the students as if they were children, doing everything for them. Some teachers can't even control their class, but that pretty much happens in every country. Here you can hand in youw homework in a piece of paper with horrible handwritting. If you do that in Ukraine, the teacher will not only scream at you but will put a big 1 in your agenda ( or dnievnik ). Also the classes are too easy. I can do nothing in the class, I can do the homework during school, and still I'd get 100%. The standards are very low, extra credit, notes during exams, and always multiple choice... Here I can slack off and still get an honor pin, when in Ukraine, I'd have to die to get one. But in any case, the system is not bad or terrible. What I do like and praise is the activities offered in schools. You can play any kind of sport, join or create any club, dances, arts, etc. In Peru and Ukraine, there was nothing much but soccer and volleyball in our physical ed. classes. Also there's agreat amount of classes that you can pick, such as consumer ed. drives ed. child development, orchestra, band, adventurer ed. gymnastics, aerobics, an many more!
We can't also ignore that American schools have so much equipment that make educations better. Here we have labs, computer rooms, resource centers, and engineering classes. In Ukraine and Peru I had like 6 and 20 computers per school respectively and only a tech. topics class. Rarely arts.
So, basically the U.S. could have a far greater educational system if they push their standards a little higher. Because you have everything in the schools, students here have a far greater advantages over other countries, more choices, yet the results are not as good as expected.

[GoBlue95]

dude to analyze what is wrong with education in this country would take hours to even paraphrase. But I will say this: it goes deeper than just the education system. It's our style of living to our morals that shape how we approach education, and it's all wrong unlike Europe. They got it down perfect in Sweden from what I've heard.

[Rudolph]

gret poszt dmitriev

[Holmes85]

What I want to know is why most Americans don't know their Geography. Please see Thumbnail and you'll understand what I mean.

[Rudolph]

America's system may not be the best, man for man, so to speak, but it's so ridiculously large that just having millions of professionals means they will stay at the top for a long time still...

[Policía Loco]

Lack of discipline
Lack of work ethic
No encouragement/support at home
Weak curriculum structure
No reasonably set standard across the board
Teachers that spread like whipped cream
What isn't wrong with it?

[Skutatos]

I met some people from USA and I can tell that they are good people but they don't have general knowledge. Yes - they have specialistic informations, but they have very "narrow" view of the world. For example they didn't know what the gothic is. They were very good at some "small part" of knowledge, but that was all.
I remember group of US tourists watching Wroclaw's cathedral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrocław_Cathedral) and their words "oh that must be a hundred years old or so".
BTW I like you - US people, but your beer is pathetic. ;)

Our public school system is lacking when it comes to history, geography, and anthropology and thats saying it nicely.

Your average american hardly knows a god-damned thing about any of those subjects. As long as they get to stuff their faces with fast food and beer while sitting in front of their 500 inch HDTVs watching "American Idol", they are happy.

This isn't how all americans behave of course, but certainly a majority of those under the age of 35.

[Umbro2914]

I am fully aware that there is no answer to my stated question that could be answered on a simple forum; however it did lead to a healty discussion which was the point.

Of course she was nervous; however she couldnt even form coherent sentences. And as the director introduced her, she was selected from her school to attend a special program in China. So if shes the best the schools got to offer,,, err you get the point.

Of course this one instance cannot be held as an example for all school children in America etc; however it would also be a blatent lie to say that this situation does not repeat itself through America.

My own oponion would be that yes it does not have to do solely with the education system; family etc are all influential, however the edu system does carry a large burden. These kids are graduating high school and they cannot even speak, let alone write correctly. The standerds are ridicliously low, the only aim in many schools is not to equip the youth with tools they willl need to succeed in life, but to simply to teach them how to pass the state mandated exam.

However, the key ingredient that schools cannot provide is motivation. The youth is lacking motivation to learn. Tech schools, honors programs, charter schools etc are usually successful and have bright students becase they strive to succeed, they want to learn, as cliche as that sounds.

Somethings got to change; because too much money is going into this system which is NOT producing the results.

[Gleipnir]

It's harder to control a population that is intelligent and knows what it wants. How are you going to sell people so much garbage and take advantage of them if they know they don't need something?

[Scriptable]

Stop pampering students and treating schools as childcare centers. Sure, the soccer moms will scream and rant and try to sue because their "little snowflake" was told off for misbehaving and not doing homework, but a bit of discipline in schools would go a long way to addressing the decline in educational standards. I'd also introduce school uniforms.

[SkyUS]

Everybody loves to complain about US educational system but nobody like the idea of paying more taxes to fix it.

Many kids think they can do whatever they want, they don't respect their teachers, and strive only for the bare minimum to pass the class or graduate. Hell, a lot more immigrants in my high school spoke better English than native Americans.

And I agree, sciences and math need to be revised. More than one foreign language should be a requirement in high school to graduate and be competitive at world stage. Courses where analytical and critical thinking is a must have to be added to the curriculum. Not just fact spilling classes.

I went to a private catholic junior high, then to a public intercity high school Granted it was an excellent school compared to other public school I felt like I am actually getting dumber by being there.

[wildcat]

Everybody loves to complain about US educational system but nobody like the idea of paying more taxes to fix it.

Many kids think they can do whatever they want, they don't respect their teachers, and strive only for the bare minimum to pass the class or graduate. Hell, a lot more immigrants in my high school spoke better English than native Americans.

And I agree, sciences and math need to be revised. More than one foreign language should be a requirement in high school to graduate and be competitive at world stage. Courses where analytical and critical thinking is a must have to be added to the curriculum. Not just fact spilling classes.

I went to a private catholic junior high, then to a public intercity high school Granted it was an excellent school compared to other public school I felt like I am actually getting dumber by being there.


money is not the answer just look at California which has one of the highest $ per head, yet one of the worst systems in the country.

[SkyUS]

money is not the answer just look at California which has one of the highest $ per head, yet one of the worst systems in the country.

Don't know what to tell you then.

Just make the system more rigorous. Higher requirements. Make sure that it's not easy for students to just cruise through the years of school and graduate on a bare minimum. Ohh and creationism shouldn't be thought at school. Equalize the science requirements throughout country. I know that there is going to be a problem with the states relinquishing their power over education to the federal gov't but the system needs to be streamlined and equalized throughout the couuntry. Rather than have states with better educational systems than others.

Edit:

I just think that religion shouldn't be part of science class. It should be discussed how perhaps it influenced, affected science movements, art periods, literature etc. Just put it in a historical context.

[Holmes85]

Have we even discussed No Child Left Behind yet? Or maybe I just opened another can of worms in this discussion.

[Hollis]

Have we even discussed No Child Left Behind yet? Or maybe I just opened another can of worms in this discussion.


It is a can of worm. It would be a good idea if there was funding. Another Federal mandated program with no money to the all ready financially strapped schools.

[Chiptox]

Equalize the science requirements throughout country. I know that there is going to be a problem with the states relinquishing their power over education to the federal gov't but the system needs to be streamlined and equalized throughout the couuntry. Rather than have states with better educational systems than others.
Who says that the Feds know better than the states?

There is a fair chance that a federally mandated education formula could be as bad or worse than the current system. I would preffer that this issue is best dealt with on a state level with each developing and planning their own educational program to suit their own needs. For example: agriculture classes while laughable for New Jersey schools are a must for rural Kansas.

As a whole, American schools would also benefit a class on critical thinking such as logic or ethics. Many students have no idea how to process the information fed to them by schools. It's just a recitation of facts and numbers with no common thread to apply them to reality.

There are also too many students going to college, dropping out, and winding up sweeping floors or fliping burgers well into their 20's because they have no skills. An increased emphasis on vocational training would give students at least some skill set to use in case things don't work out.

Home economics (particularly cooking) should also be brought back. People eat garbage because they are unaware that there are cheaper and healthier alternatives that they can make themselves. This is an area of learning that has been relegated exclusively to the home. So if a child grows up eating big macs and tv dinners, they will likely continue to do so in adulthood because they know of no alternative. Teaching children culinary skills would probably have a beneficial effect on obesity rates.

[Loken]

Was lurking and reading the comments over and for the most part i have to agree the system is well beyond broken in some states. New Jersey seems to have a special school i will not name where at the college level they seem to pass pretty much everyone that makes them "look good" even if it means overlooking the fact johnny the part time drug dealer just copy and pasted his English paper from an eassay website. I pretty much busted my as$ in college and got f*ckall to show for it. Wrote all of my own papers and put alot of work into what i did and barely escaped sane. Erstwhile my peers f*cked around..most of them came to class stoned or drunk and never gave a crap about course work and they somehow pass with flying colors. For example: A Girl in one of my American History courses upon covering American involvement in the first world war continually cited that America had to enter to stop the evil Nazis from killing the Jews. Let's not even get started about the skewed course work on the American civil war.. The system needs a big f*cking update..good luck making that change.

[nimer bortuqaal]

Everybody loves to complain about US educational system but nobody like the idea of paying more taxes to fix it.

Many kids think they can do whatever they want, they don't respect their teachers, and strive only for the bare minimum to pass the class or graduate. Hell, a lot more immigrants in my high school spoke better English than native Americans.

And I agree, sciences and math need to be revised. More than one foreign language should be a requirement in high school to graduate and be competitive at world stage. Courses where analytical and critical thinking is a must have to be added to the curriculum. Not just fact spilling classes.

I went to a private catholic junior high, then to a public intercity high school Granted it was an excellent school compared to other public school I felt like I am actually getting dumber by being there.

I would gladly approve spending more money on public education with a few caveats. First, add some discipline to the school system akin to the military. You screw around too much and you will do much work after school cleaning, mowing lawns, sweeping, etc. Screw up too much and you get kicked out for awhile while your grade point average drops. Screw up more and you are out for life.

Second, if you fail your semester then you will redo it no matter what. You have to leave by the age of 21 if you are so unmotivated to pass your schooling. Of course if there is a learning disability (and a real one not an excuse for being a turd) then you can go to special classes specifically designed for this requirement.

Also, if you do not pass high school or drop out then you are forbiden for life from dipping into any federal welfare system. Too bad you were lazy. And that is what it is most of the time. Laziness, lack of motivation, poor family structure, lack of parental oversight or caring, selfishness, and ego.

To add to my rant, I feel it should be mandatory for all 18 year olds to do military or civil service for three years after high school. Once you are done with your payment to be a citizen of the country, then 2/3 of your college is paid for (median price of schooling across the country). Why 2/3? Because some struggle makes one better.

We have a very good thing in Amercia, but it is going downhill fast. Schooling and parenting (lack of) are a big portion of the problem. I would like to see us reverse this trend, but that is going to take some work, sacrifice, and discipline on everyone's part. I am all for rewarding hard work and paying a premium for a great school system, but the funds are only part of the issue - the rest relies on staff, parents, and the children themselves.

[Soldat_Américain]

Federal and State government needs to stay out of the education business...end of story, it's gets worse with the increasing role that they play in the school system as a whole.

And what happened to the Civics and Ethics courses my parents had to take 40 years ago?

[nimer bortuqaal]

Federal and State government needs to stay out of the education business...end of story, it's gets worse with the increasing role that they play in the school system as a whole.

And what happened to the Civics and Ethics courses my parents had to take 40 years ago?

I'm not trying to cause problems, but where are people going to go to school? Private schools? Most families cannot aford such a thing. Also, will we still require children to go to school? Besides taxes, how can a government tell you how to spend your money?

[tercio67]

The role of the government is to set minimum standards, both for what is taught and for those that do the teaching.
If schools are capable and willing to exeed those standards they should do so.
The most important however is to not let your schooling interfere with your education.

[nimer bortuqaal]

"The most important however is to not let your schooling interfere with your education."


amen

[bababooey]

Teachers unions fu*cked it all up. IMO, I would like to see more home schooling and get away from the bureaucratic school systems we have today.

Also, I always felt their should be two teachers in a class instead of one. One teacher is junior to the other and is mentored by the older. That way their is always a fresh face to prop up the tired older teacher. I know my class, we made a point to f*ck with and wear out our teachers.

[Soldat_Américain]

I'm not trying to cause problems, but where are people going to go to school? Private schools? Most families cannot aford such a thing. Also, will we still require children to go to school? Besides taxes, how can a government tell you how to spend your money?
Government should just be the checkbook...The control of the curriculum these days has gone to the State Boards of education which in my opinion are bunch of dimwits...and until the state starts certifying schools and not associations then they need to let local school boards do their job. The associations that certify from Elementary, Middle/Junior High, High Schools, and Universities and Colleges should be the ones setting the standards.

[tercio67]

Ah yes, a college certified degree in basket weaving, with extra credits for ironing. p-)

[nimer bortuqaal]

Government should just be the checkbook...The control of the curriculum these days has gone to the State Boards of education which in my opinion are bunch of dimwits...and until the state starts certifying schools and not associations then they need to let local school boards do their job. The associations that certify from Elementary, Middle/Junior High, High Schools, and Universities and Colleges should be the ones setting the standards.

Good point.

I would still like to see alot more discipline in the school system (see my first post). I am all about having school uniforms as well.

I must sound so draconian, but without some form of discipline and rules society has a hard time in the absense of order or rules. Education to me is not just about memorizing and calculating. It is about how to think and be part of a society without being a burden to that society.

[Scriptable]

IMO, I would like to see more home schooling
More home supervised after-schooling maybe for disciplined study and parental help, but exclusive homeschooling has too many downsides if an adequate public/private school system of at least reasonable quality is available in a community.


Also, I always felt their should be two teachers in a class instead of one. One teacher is junior to the other and is mentored by the older. That way their is always a fresh face to prop up the tired older teacher.
That is an extremely good suggestion.

[Soldat_Américain]

Good point.

I would still like to see alot more discipline in the school system (see my first post). I am all about having school uniforms as well.

I must sound so draconian, but without some form of discipline and rules society has a hard time in the absense of order or rules. Education to me is not just about memorizing and calculating. It is about how to think and be part of a society without being a burden to that society.
Yeah I get the discipline part...not necessarily uniforms but a legitimate dress code...say like what kids had to wear in the '50s to school. Bringing back corporal punishment would make many mommas cry, but their children would behave better.

[nimer bortuqaal]

Yeah I get the discipline part...not necessarily uniforms but a legitimate dress code...say like what kids had to wear in the '50s to school. Bringing back corporal punishment would make many mommas cry, but their children would behave better.


So very true! Why not add some smoke sessions - teenage obesity would be down, the kids would be stronger (mentally and physically), and there would be a lot more attention paid to the teacher during class because the children would be tired and maybe afraid to screw off.

Of course this is all just nothing but a dream for me because of the losers that control thought in our country. We wouldnt want anyone to be uncomfortable, embarrassed, or lesser than anyone else.

[DaveDash]

"Uneducated" Americans are still breeding. "Educated" Europeans are not (Unwilling to have a kid and take time off with that degree driven career, can't afford it, whatever). I'd say, in the great scheme of things, there is nothing wrong with the American education system.

Anyone played Simcity 4? Every tried having a city where everyone was educated and no one was around to work the "****" jobs?

.....

[Mr.Woland]

IMHO:
Nowdays every country has big problems in education.
Schoolboys and schoolgirls lost interest to study. When i was schoolboy i like to learn smth new or to understand how smth works using logic and my knowledge. At the age of 12 I understood that nobody in school can't teach me if I didn't want to study. Every school is only source of knowledge or experience and as good you can catch an opportunity to open you's mind as good you will study in any place (school,university,work and etc).

[chauncy republicans]

The most important however is to not let your schooling interfere with your education.
Damn man, I'm going to give this advise to my daughter, I haven't read a quote as memorable as that in a while. Thanks, I love good reading that makes you think.

[Fallap]

Im in third year of higshcool and to make a quick conclusion:

a. Im a lazy spoiled arsehole Admitted

b. First year in Highschool I f***** up, so I took HF instead

1b. HF = two year version of highschool, big difference is:

2b: There is NO grades, NONE, 0, less than zero! Only at exams!

3b. There for you can slack off, sleep, do nothing during those two years and then just read like crazy before exams and do well.

c. I did so in my first year of HF, its first in the second and last year that I pulled my self together (Combined with the fact that we recieved teachers capable of actually teaching (Our history teacher in 1HF was a joke. He didn't gave a damn about teaching and just handed out a paper with historical question we had to answer, once done we could just go home.)) Our history teacher this year was way better (And she was so hot, aprox. 34 years. So she had my attention thats for sure. :p

d. About 1/5 of all lessons on an average higschool year is cancelled for some reasons, some because of teachers being sick - but the majority because of teachers meeting and etc.

Thankfully I just happend to be super intelligent, so I didn't go down the drain like certain others did in my class (Like some who cant find neither India or Greece on a map etc. etc.)

Anyway, my conclusion is that danish higschool students are dumb as sheaps. But noone cares, cause it's way cooler to badmouth USA (I think it's a current trend)

Ps. In Swedish higschool you can take circus classes rofl

[Soldat_Américain]

Im in third year of higshcool and to make a quick conclusion:

a. Im a lazy spoiled arsehole Admitted

b. First year in Highschool I f***** up, so I took HF instead



What is HF...your definition didn't really help me other than getting your viewpoint...do you have some literature that I can read?

[California Joe]

A big part of the reason I moved back to Vermont a few years ago was so my kids could go to the same high school my wife and I attended. It's a private academy where there is a dress code and dormitory students from all over the world whose parents pay college level tuition to send them there.

The key is that any kid from the town or several surrounding towns attend that school tuition free. There is no public high school. Never has been. The towns vote tax money for tuition every year for the locals.

The school is on the same level as the best private high schools in the country. It looks like a college.

For the kids not interested in going to college they have everything from a comprehensive culinary arts program to electricians and construction trades, right up to competing against colleges like MIT in solar powered vehicles contests built in house.

Of course, it has been around since the Civil War so they've had time to get it right...

[Fallap]

What is HF...your definition didn't really help me other than getting your viewpoint...do you have some literature that I can read?

Sorry, it got abit hazy (is that a word btw?)

In Danish higschools you have three lines to choose from:

1. STX (The most common and oldest) It takes three years to complete, you get grades for everything you hand in to the teachers. Plus you get grades in each class four times a year. But you only have to attend a limited amount of exams.

2. HF. It takes two years to complete. You don't recieve grades for your handins and it requires ALOT more selfdicipline. It was originally intented to be a highschool solution to farmers etc. and people in their twenties - fiftys to attend in order to have a highschool degree. But today they are attended by people in the same age group as those in STX.
In HF you have to attend exams in EVERY class you have.

3. IB. International version of STX. Teaching is in english, and the classes are made up of 5% foreigners/exchange students. The last 95% is made up of regular danes who speaks crappy english. They speak danish to themself, and when a teacher shows up they change to english in a ZAP! :slap:

[Soldat_Américain]

Sorry, it got abit hazy (is that a word btw?)

3. IB. International version of STX. Teaching is in english, and the classes are made up of 5% foreigners/exchange students. The last 95% is made up of regular danes who speaks crappy english. They speak danish to themself, and when a teacher shows up they change to english in a ZAP! :slap:

You got lazy...I see...yeah you got it right.

We have International Baccalaureate in the states, in California it supplements AP programs...but where my cousin went to school in Washington by do the program at her high school where every class was IB she got a years worth of college credit...whereas if I had passed all my AP exams I could have been almost an Academic junior depending on the University I could have chosen to attend.

[gustav]

Can we really blame the school for the pupil's shortcomings? If children have no incentives and eagerness to learn you can put them into crack colleges they still won't work.

Its all about incentives and family environement I guess, when you live in a household where education is not prized for whatever reasons, the child has good odds to live and die as an ignoramus...And its not the the school's job to replace the parents.

[szr]

Biggest problem with education as I see it in this country is that for the kids, it ends when the school day ends. That might be okay if the school day's instruction was particularly rigorous but too often it is not.

[Policía Loco]

I agree about the family environment. It plays a significant role. But the incentives are already there.

[tercio67]

Can we really blame the school for the pupil's shortcomings? If children have no incentives and eagerness to learn you can put them into crack colleges they still won't work.

Its all about incentives and family environement I guess, when you live in a household where education is not prized for whatever reasons, the child has good odds to live and die as an ignoramus...And its not the the school's job to replace the parents.

The school is there to teach, wether students are willing or able is not important. It is the teachers' job to find a way to get the students interested in the curriculum. Without genuine interest of students, and genuine support by teachers you will create 'parrots' trained to answer the questions of their exams, incapable of having an original thought.

[Gleipnir]

The school is there to teach, wether students are willing or able is not important. It is the teachers' job to find a way to get the students interested in the curriculum. Without genuine interest of students, and genuine support by teachers you will create 'parrots' trained to answer the questions of their exams, incapable of having an original thought.

Exactly. More discipline is not necessarily the way forward either. I went to a very disciplined school, one without all these weird hippy classes that one can find in American schools. Just the core subjects, nothing more, nothing less.
I found that my peers were incredibly complacent, conservative (not used politically here), socially deficient individuals who were very good at regurgitation but lacking sorely in creative thought, improvisation or spontaneity. Furthermore, this latter approach to work was highly discouraged and I even found myself in serious trouble for 'adding un-necessary fantasy" to my work, even though I had accomplished every guideline given by the teachers.
It was all I could do to stop from going crazy, but even this was viewed as problematic.
The school was saying "Yes, we want you to be free thinking individuals, but only on our terms, our way, or else."
I personally feel that this school limited my potential and in turn made me a far worse student.



The most important however is to not let your schooling interfere with your education.

I could not agree with this more. Great advice.

[gustav]

Thats not a new debate...But I went to both styles of schools, the hippie one and the conservative one. And I can say I have learnt far more with the "old school" method while I don't remember of anything from my "progressive" education. Then I know it produced its lots of morons too, nothing is perfect, but at least the basics (what you use to think) were put in place.

[Holmes85]

In my part of the country it's irresponsible spending that's ruining our education system. I'll give you all a brief list using one of the two high schools in my city.

-New phone system to replace perfectly good one already in existence cost around $1,000,000.

-Five assistant principles. (I can only imagine the yearly cost involved)

-An unneeded administrative building added on to the school costing millions.

These are just a few examples.

[Soldat_Américain]

This is the problem with American Education system...mismanagement...none other than wonderful LA Unified...anyone remember Belmont? Well LAUSD just spent 232 Million on an art school...I also think art schools are crocks.
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/arts/la-ca-art-school31-2009may31,0,4081776.story

[Chiptox]

Ah yes, a college certified degree in basket weaving, with extra credits for ironing. p-)
To be fair, basket weaving is probably more marketable than half the majors offered by the US college system. General Studies and History sound like great degrees and you get a nifty piece of paper but they really don't translate to jobs in today's market. It makes for a great voting base of bright people, but also a broke one as a higher education doesn't necessarily lead to a better quality of life.


I think the main issue are the goals of education, specifically the lack of. We are too vetting the corriculum and the methods to ask "what are we trying to accomplish from this?". Employment? Critical thinking ability? Knowledge? Team-building and leadership?

Unfortunately, state and federally mandated education standards attempt to mandate inclusion of these things to a minimum level and in the end wind up doing them all, as can be expected, poorly. I would support initiatives to return control back to individual districts and let them find their own way through. As CA Joe pointed out, parents are willing to relocate if a particular school offers an education that they desire, why not apply this to a larger level to public schooling and let people decide either by their feet or by active participation with the school board?

[Greek soldier]

I'll give my 2 cents, since I studied on an American Higher Education Institution (American College of Greece -http://www.acg.edu).

1) About the girl in the video.

First of, she speaks nervously. Then, she is not well-prepared to deliver the speech. And third, she repeats the same words.

During my college years, one of the first courses I attended was called "Public Speaking". All students were obliged to deliver 3 types of speeches (1 Informative and 2 Compensating). It was not an easy task. For a 10-minute speech I needed some 4-hour preparation (speaking, hand and body movement etc.).

I don't know if US High Schools have Public Speaking courses, but I strongly recommend such courses to be introduced in High Schools.

2) About the educational system, well, all around the world you'll find different problems. Children that don't know basic History (national and international), Geography, Composition, Spelling and the list goes on.

In some cases it is be the educational system. But I strongly believe the issue starts from home. Why?

1) When you have 2 parents working all day, who's going to help the children with homework? Even if you have a older brother/sister, you still need the parents for assistance.

2) Who's going to watch over when children consume most of their time playing video games or watching TV, ignoring their homework? They end up knowing more about a reality show than i.e basic mathematics

And then comes school... and I agree 100% with tercio67.


The school is there to teach, wether students are willing or able is not important. It is the teachers' job to find a way to get the students interested in the curriculum. Without genuine interest of students, and genuine support by teachers you will create 'parrots' trained to answer the questions of their exams, incapable of having an original thought.

[xsion]

IMHO the problem with US education lies somewhere else. When I was living in USA and I met all kind of people - some of them smart, some of them balancing on the edge of being considered as dumb. But most of them had one thing in common. Americans mostly are not interested in rest of the world. Im not trying to offend them, it just the way I see it.
Americans are rather egocentric and I'm not really surprised. They are indeed far away from the problems rest of the world has. By their media they are taught that they are good as they are and there's no need for change. So they don't even try, in they opinion they are already beautiful, smart, inteligent, educated and so on. This way companies can sell more - people don't feel guilty and don't want to change their habits - cause they are perfectly happy.
Please, don't get me wrong. I really like Americans. They are nice and inteligent people. All countries have problems and USA problem is just not understanding rest of the world and lack of will to change it.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I would imagine Americans are no less dumber than the rest of us though I am finding younger Americans more switched on to world to affairs than older folk in the States which is the polar opposite of the UK. My cousin teaches Maths at a college in Cali and my mates girlfriend also teaches the subject in a private school in TN and by all accounts kids are losing interest in the subject.

[IraGlacialis]

In defense though, Alot of people in the rural midwest in all honesty are good people...work a hard blue collared life...and are not educated and don't speak great english...does that make them idiots? No. Does that make them bad people? Of course not. Just raised in a different area.
No denying that. However, that drives home the fact that some people should just not be in college. They should be vocational school learning skilled trades. In fact, these vocational school should be specialized to the extreme. More quality and uniqueness over quantity.
That is one problem with educational system; there are not enough alternate routes. It is mostly school then college, with little respect to those who are willing to contribute to society but can't fit into a college-bound course, but can't go anywhere else due to lack of options. Yet society screams that they should be in college; a proverbial square peg trying to be shoved in a round hole. The result is that they drop out of school; if they do go into college, they may do so poorly that they collectively lower the standards of schools.

The other people who shouldn't be in college are the douchebags who are in school just because their father and father's-father went to that school so they can suck on the teat of reputation. But that can't be helped; besides, dynasties fall eventually.


Also, if you do not pass high school or drop out then you are forbiden for life from dipping into any federal welfare system. Too bad you were lazy. And that is what it is most of the time. Laziness, lack of motivation, poor family structure, lack of parental oversight or caring, selfishness, and ego.

Frankly, on top of the no welfare policy, I would prefer those who drop out without good reason to be drafted into manual, ****-level labor. And there will be plenty of opportunity to mend their ways and get an education so they can be released.
Of course I know that will never fly due to a connotation with slavery.


I would still like to see alot more discipline in the school system (see my first post). I am all about having school uniforms as well.
No doubt that more discipline will definitely help, including a strict dress code. That being said, at the school level, it has been proven that uniforms do not help that much with discipline. Kids will still find ways to "individualize" themselves and create cliques based on how their uniforms are tailored and/or modified as much as possible and still be going along with the rules.

In the case of foreign language, that in one area the US system is severely lacking. In fact, in many schools, students who are interested have to actually struggle to get into a foreign language class due to the small size allotted.
One thing that needs to be done is start teaching foreign laguages at an earlier lever when kids' minds are more easily worked on; in other countries, kids learn English at the kindergarden/early elementary level.
Another thing is that there needs to be a greater emphasis on languages other than French and Spanish for the majority of schools. Namely Mandarin and Arabic due to the higher importance of those languages in these times. In fact I would substitute French with Mandarin as one of the two core foreign language classes in all schools.
We can't simply be content that English is the main international language.

This is but a fraction of the issues plaguing our educational system, the students themselves not being the least of them. The educational system issue is probably one of the most important in the long run; yet it is one that seems to be glossed over quite a bit, no matter the words that get spouted out by politicians. The people's apparent apathy doesn't help things.

[redvand]

This appointment was made on 5/5/9. Have you heard about this?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Jennings, Assistant Deputy Secretary, Office of Safe & Drug Free Schools

Kevin Jennings is the founder and former executive director of the Gay, Lesbian, and Straight Education Network (GLSEN), an organization that works to make schools safe for all students, regardless of ****** orientation or gender identity. Prior to his tenure at GLSEN, Jennings served as History Department chair and a history teacher at Concord Academy in Massachusetts and before that as a history teacher at Moses Brown School in Rhode Island. Jennings has also authored six books including Mama's Boy, Preacher's Son: A Memoir which was named a 2007 Book of Honor by the American Library Association and Telling Tales Out of School which was the winner of the 1998 Lambda Literary Award. Jennings received an A.B. in history from Harvard, an M.A. from the Columbia University Teachers College and an M.B.A. from NYU's Stern School of Business.

[dallas_112678]

It's the students themselves, and their parents. People think that the reason American students lag behind other countries is because they dont go to school enough. The fact is that american students have more school hours than many other countries that do better on standarized tests. Not to mention for the most part schools here get a good ammount of funding, to much funding for these results. The only reason american students are behind is just because they are basically spoiled. If they do bad on a test then their parents just say "its ok honey, as long as you tried your hardest." Now many kids do not even consider school all that important.

[SoSo]

Are European high school students better educated than ours because we try to educate everyone, while in Europe only the best students go on to high school, the rest receiving some kind of vocational training?This is a question, not a statement. I've never been to Europe and I don't know how things are over there. Could someone please tell me if this is the case, or if what I've heard is incorrect?

[Walter Sobchak]

Hell, look at the way some people type on this board, and you wonder why they can't speak proper English?

Yes!!

At one time, coherent writing, which consisted of using proper spelling, punctuation and grammar, was the minimum expectation made of students who wished to pass their class. Papers in classes other than English were graded on both content and proper construction. However, now many teachers in the sciences and social studies are themselves not much more literate than their students, and as a result, quite unable to judge a student's work on anything but the basic contents.

I still use a 40-year old Chicago Manual of Style and a Perrin Writer's Guide and Index to English that is even older. Both of these are written to a basic high school understanding of the written word, but to some of the younger people I know and with whom I work, these works are like some mysterious, ancient tablets.

Maybe if schools were still in the business of teaching, we wouldn't be where we are today. However, just ask any dedicated teacher, and they will tell you what the problems are: disruptive students (1-2 can ruin a whole class); ridiculous teaching curriculum and mandates; too much 'documentation' (aka: CYA for the school system); apathetic parents and students; and too many administrators who need to justify their jobs.

Put them in uniforms, give the principal back the right to apply "the board of education", expel the disruptive and teach the 3-Rs.

[Fallap]

Are European high school students better educated than ours because we try to educate everyone, while in Europe only the best students go on to high school, the rest receiving some kind of vocational training?This is a question, not a statement. I've never been to Europe and I don't know how things are over there. Could someone please tell me if this is the case, or if what I've heard is incorrect?

In Denmark, everyone and their grandmom can go to highschool. Yes the best students go to highschool, and so does the worst of them.

The system is very liberal here where I live at least. Okay, if your grades from elementary school are really bad (really) you will have to attend some test in math, danish, english, german, history so they can judge if your intelligence meassures the level needed for higschool.

[Policía Loco]

It seems that too many students are pushed through high school in the US regardless of their level of education. I remember in highschool 17 and 18 year old students would get called on by the teacher to read something outloud and would struggle to read the first sentence before someone else was called on.:roll:

[tercio67]

Are European high school students better educated than ours because we try to educate everyone, while in Europe only the best students go on to high school, the rest receiving some kind of vocational training?This is a question, not a statement. I've never been to Europe and I don't know how things are over there. Could someone please tell me if this is the case, or if what I've heard is incorrect?

In the Netherlands we have a system that consists basically of two learning paths; practical and theorethical.
Within each path there are levels to choose from, and it is possible to first take a 'lower' level and then progress to a 'higher' level depending on a students ability.
Both paths can lead you to university, although the theorethical path is a more direct one for that.
For those that don't want to go to university the option is either get a highschool diploma, or get a highschool diploma with vocational training included.
Young people/students are to stay in school until they are 18 or get a diploma, whatever comes first. After that they are free to go to university or to join the workforce.
Besides this there are several programs for young people to get a diploma trough a 'work and learn' curriculum specificaly designed for 'drop-outs' of the regular system.

[deagle]

they make higher education attainable b/c of predatory private school loans w/govt kickbacks.

private + govt sectors win, individual loses

[Narvaresearch]

Accent is one thing. In lower class English folk, it can be just as hard to understand. I don't think this is an example at all for the incompetence of the American educational system.

Other points you bring up are good though. One reason Americans don't learn other languages might have to do with a few things. One is proximity. It's a vast nation and unlike Europe English is spoken almost exclusively across the entire nation. Now I live in Texas so I know that Spanish is a key language, but here in the south when it is necessary a second language is probably learned on a higher percentage.

The second comes from an American lifestyle in my opinion. I think it's more of our American independence. We don't like the metric system, we don't want to learn other languages. You'll learn our language, thank you (and this is reinforced by the fact that many Europeans, almost all educated Indians, and Asians learn English).

In terms of math, I do not know why we fail to master it compared to other nations. My mother schooled in India and mentioned the main difference in teaching seems to be how much work they had to do in memorization than we in America do. We have a lot of fun field trips and all, but only few of those help learn things that can take us anywhere.

My two...

And also: University education in itself means nothing. Some, if not the best universities are located in the United States, but many schools are filled with idiots. So you have a bunch of people with degrees who want a lot of money, but don't know anything about the real world and have no real marketable skill as a laborer.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Accent is one thing. In lower class English folk, it can be just as hard to understand. I don't think this is an example at all for the incompetence of the American educational system.Class has little to do with accent in England some regions do have strong accents especially in the rural areas.

[PeterRJG]

Class has little to do with accent in England some regions do have strong accents especially in the rural areas.

Then why was the term "Received ****unciation" invented to reflect the "King's English" as spoken by the well-to-do? Not the mention the U and non-U speech divides.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Then why was the term "Received ****unciation" invented to reflect the "King's English" as spoken by the well-to-do? Not the mention the U and non-U speech divides.I dunno guvnor:-(

[T3ngu]

And also: University education in itself means nothing. Some, if not the best universities are located in the United States, but many schools are filled with idiots. So you have a bunch of people with degrees who want a lot of money, but don't know anything about the real world and have no real marketable skill as a laborer.

lol, laugh of the day. Real?

I have a bachelors and masters degree in engineering, are you inferring i am an idiot?

[DS73]

The education is just one integral part of any country and shouldn't be separated in outlook from other social structures.
When undereducated people become too loud, the education, just like everything else, is going down to accommodate populistic but obviously short-sited views of said group. When the scope of actions is blurred by some ideological slogans the reason dies first and simple cheapest to digest crap fills the pages.

I believe that is exactly what happened in Cal. and probably happens in some other states in US. It definitely happens in many european countries (UK and Sweden would be prime examples ,but Germany, France and Nl are definitely not immune either).

The US lost this educational strive they had in 50s-60s. Too bad.

[kosse]

Are European high school students better educated than ours because we try to educate everyone, while in Europe only the best students go on to high school, the rest receiving some kind of vocational training?This is a question, not a statement. I've never been to Europe and I don't know how things are over there. Could someone please tell me if this is the case, or if what I've heard is incorrect?

In Finland around half of the age group choose high shcool and another half vocational school. Vocational school often offers quick and nearly certain access to relatively well-paid jobs in industry, health care and services while high-school diplomas only serve as a launching pad for higher education. High-school diplomas alone are nearly worthless here (i.e. with high school diploma you are good for a shop assistant but not much more).

[XShipRider]

Why is it that children in Europe etc often speak two languages fluently and have mastered math and sciences by the time they finish high school; while many Americans can hardly speak English properly.



You see, children in America suffer from low self-esteem. Just ask the school psychologist or the school nurse, both positions which did not exist when so many of us attended school years ago. Kids today must feel good about themselves thus errors in speech, writing and math go uncorrected. As long as Johnny had the right idea, that's all that counts these days.

Spelling, grammar and penmanship? No need, these are dying arts reserved for "advanced placement" and "gifted" students. While 90% of the class is dragged down to the lowest common denominator the 10% get real schooling (which these days is a very liberal dose of self-country hating, blame the US for everything, global warming now called climate change indoctrination).

Not to worry though, President Obama wants to funnel billions to fix the problem(s). I see real change coming but it isn't the kind most people desire. The NEA, teacher associations, Dept of Ed. will gain in influence and power while the local school boards will become nothing more than rubber stamps or puppets.

[fish_b]

Educational sistems....! Oki so my grammar is horrible. I dont care. I dont bother to write properly because i dont want to. Also im learned english miself not in school.

But there are major differences between educational sistems. For example over here they try to box in your head as much as possible regardless of what you want to do in life. You have science math history foreign languages at least 1 geography (and not just country in detail ). Well lets just say a lot. And this year they increased the number of hours per week a kid has to be in class. The result is in reality even less gym classes resulting in very poor general fitness. But thats besides the point.

We even had a foreign affairs minister that was a .....how do you spell it a disaster . So its not limited to just any given region.

Also it seems like the current high-school generation that is currently in school semms to be a lot dumber then anticipated. They know more about the sideeffects of cocain use then history......!

On the other hand i have seen worse in other western colleges when students could not find europe on the map. Dont know if they were faking or were for real but even as a joke its a pretty bad one. The reason why its because the question was dead serious. And i have heard americans who had no idea what the capital of the USA is. (dont wanna be ofeending or anithing but they really didnt know....or were faking again in which case they should not have )


Also as someone stated above high-school diplomas and even some college diplomas are worthless over here. It all depends.

And yeah getting into high-school and even college over here be it state or private is pretty difficult and be it state or private you pay it . less then 20% oif the total college students actualy get free scholarships based on high grades and such. that is because there is a limited budget and limited numbers of students that get acces to free education. That in itself ignites competitions.

[California Joe]

It all went to Hell when they started banning dodgeball.

Fact.

[Soldat_Américain]

It all went to Hell when they started banning dodgeball.

Fact.
Was that when they got rid of recess or before that?

[Narvaresearch]

lol, laugh of the day. Real?

I have a bachelors and masters degree in engineering, are you inferring i am an idiot?

No I'm not inferring that at all. Where did you see that in my statement?

I can't see how you can deny America has some of the best schools in the world. Granted the students foot an enormous bill sometimes (better private colleges are $30-60,000).

Based on: the Times Higher Education-QS World University Rankings

1. Harvard
2. Yale
3. Cambridge
4. Oxford
5. California Institute of Technology
6. Imperial College London
7. University College London
8. Univ. of Chicago
9. Mass. Institute of Technology
10. Columbia
11. Univ. of Pennsylvania
12. Princeton Univ.
13. Duke Univ.
14. Johns Hopkins Univ.
15. Cornell Univ.

[IDF_TANKER]

No I'm not inferring that at all. Where did you see that in my statement?

I can't see how you can deny America has some of the best schools in the world. Granted the students foot an enormous bill sometimes (better private colleges are $30-60,000).

Based on: the Times Higher Education-QS World University Rankings

1. Harvard
2. Yale
3. Cambridge
4. Oxford
5. California Institute of Technology
6. Imperial College London
7. University College London
8. Univ. of Chicago
9. Mass. Institute of Technology
10. Columbia
11. Univ. of Pennsylvania
12. Princeton Univ.
13. Duke Univ.
14. Johns Hopkins Univ.
15. Cornell Univ.

True. However, you should take a really good look into demographics of the
students and professors in the American universities. I remember reading somewhere (in a Thomas Friedman piece, I think) that in one of the top US universities there was a year when none of the math masters degree graduates were "native" American born students (all being Asians IIRC). Also I remember from my university years being constantly wondering about exceptionally large part of non-American names (not necessarily Asian) appearing on the research articles produced in US institutions.

US is without any doubt is scientific leader of the world (that is including its research and education institutions). However, this is, at least partially, due to globalization and much less government controlled/funded system of higher education. To put it simply, it seems that the same capitalistic system, which allows the US rich universities to compete on the global markets for the best professors and students, is unable at the same time to produce the sufficient local supply of human resources for these institutes.
The Europeans, on the other hand, traditionally have good school systems but free/subsidized higher education system often loses its best professors and graduate students for American institutes, offering best salaries and research funding. This goes for Israel too, BTW.

[Narvaresearch]

I will not disagree. Many of the best and brightest students are not American at all. I would like to point out that foreigners often have an advantage is applying to a U.S instituition, but from what I have heard that is the same for Americans applying to foreign institutions as well.

I think that says something about our university system though. It's great and is being made better and better by foreigners, without a doubt.

I do think there is something to be said about the European/Isreali system as well. Because it is so cheap/free it really sends the best of the nation to the best schools. In the United States, sure they give out scholarships a little more freely than elsewhere (if they even have such a thing elsewhere), but there are many (and I know of many examples) where some of the brightest students cannot afford to go to higher institutions so they have to settle for less. Some son or daughter of a rich family takes that spot instead even if they are less qualified. That is one flaw I see that Europe really does well in.


True. However, you should take a really good look into demographics of the
students and professors in the American universities. I remember reading somewhere (in a Thomas Friedman piece, I think) that in one of the top US universities there was a year when none of the math masters degree graduates were "native" American born students (all being Asians IIRC). Also I remember from my university years being constantly wondering about exceptionally large part of non-American names (not necessarily Asian) appearing on the research articles produced in US institutions.

US is without any doubt is scientific leader of the world (that is including its research and education institutions). However, this is, at least partially, due to globalization and much less government controlled/funded system of higher education. To put it simply, it seems that the same capitalistic system, which allows the US rich universities to compete on the global markets for the best professors and students, is unable at the same time to produce the sufficient local supply of human resources for these institutes.
The Europeans, on the other hand, traditionally have good school systems but free/subsidized higher education system often loses its best professors and graduate students for American institutes, offering best salaries and research funding. This goes for Israel too, BTW.

[click]

It all went to Hell when they started banning dodgeball.

Fact.

Yes, and it couldnt have gotten any worse than when they banned tackle football

[Soldat_Américain]

Yes, and it couldnt have gotten any worse than when they banned tackle football
If we didn't have football in high school my life would have been horrible...I like to be a lazy schmuck when I have too much time on my hands...so I was able to manage my time because homework could only get done in a window of three to four hours after I got home from practice, showered, and eaten.

[nimer bortuqaal]

lol, laugh of the day. Real?

I have a bachelors and masters degree in engineering, are you inferring i am an idiot?

What does that prove? Because one has a degree(s) one is smarter (not saying your are not smart - just against the arogance of the "educated")? There are lots of idiots with degrees and lots without. So what.

[click]

If we didn't have football in high school my life would have been horrible...I like to be a lazy schmuck when I have too much time on my hands...so I was able to manage my time because homework could only get done in a window of three to four hours after I got home from practice, showered, and eaten.

I was talking 'bout elementary school.

But I see your point, man :D

[Soldat_Américain]

I was talking 'bout elementary school. ;)

But I see your point, man
When they banned smear the queer...let me tell you, tons of fights broke out...the peace patrol was not effective at conflict resolution...kids got suspended...and then there was the boys v. girls soccer games which were interesting.

[hsh2]

No I'm not inferring that at all. Where did you see that in my statement?

I can't see how you can deny America has some of the best schools in the world. Granted the students foot an enormous bill sometimes (better private colleges are $30-60,000).

Based on: the Times Higher Education-QS World University Rankings

1. Harvard
2. Yale
3. Cambridge
4. Oxford
5. California Institute of Technology
6. Imperial College London
7. University College London
8. Univ. of Chicago
9. Mass. Institute of Technology
10. Columbia
11. Univ. of Pennsylvania
12. Princeton Univ.
13. Duke Univ.
14. Johns Hopkins Univ.
15. Cornell Univ.

I wouldn't put much faith in university rankings. Have you checked their methodology? It's pretty much fantasy, like the peace rankings recently that declared New Zealand the world's most peaceful country.

Besides, Old Europe by itself (let alone all of Europe) have much more Nobel Prizes and Field Medals than the USA.

[XShipRider]

It all went to Hell when they started banning dodgeball.

Fact.

True Fact - I filled in for my son's one remaining grandparent on grandparents visitation day at the local educational gulag because she just did not feel well enough to attend. Interesting enough the visit was pleasant with students putting on a play/reading of sorts to entertain the old folk present. We were invited to stay through lunch and noon recess (3rd grade). As my son finished lunch we headed outside to the playground, he bee-lined for his friends and I for the playground monitor. I'm standing with the monitor chatting when a young boy darts by, she interrupts our conversation to yell, "Hey! No running!"

Huh? No running? When I asked her why "no running" was allowed she responded, "They might fall and get hurt."

I want to know what overprotective idiot (or lawyer) determined that kids should not fall once in awhile. How else do they learn to pick themselves up? What does the school nurse do all day? Why are we drugging our children to sit still when all they really need is to do a little running during recess? Or is it because running will lead to "I can run faster than you" competitions, and we just can't have that can we? Did this whole debacle start with grading curves?

[IraGlacialis]

Huh? No running? When I asked her why "no running" was allowed she responded, "They might fall and get hurt."
Are you ****ing kidding me?! I can see no running in the halls, but in a playground?
No wonder our youth is getting fat.

[Narvaresearch]

I wouldn't put much faith in university rankings. Have you checked their methodology? It's pretty much fantasy, like the peace rankings recently that declared New Zealand the world's most peaceful country.

Besides, Old Europe by itself (let alone all of Europe) have much more Nobel Prizes and Field Medals than the USA.

I simply posted one university ranking. There are many, and no I don't know the methodology.

Your sources for your claim? And where were they taught?

[SoSo]

Our educational system is terrible and that's a fact. For some reason our kids seem to remain competitive with the rest of the First World through elementary school, but in high school they fall far behind. Too many disciplinary problems, I guess; disruptive kids are really a problem because they keep everyone else from learning. Some of the boys are physically very big and can intimidate female teachers and even men. Rules prohibit teachers from simply booting out troublemakers. And teachers who call the principal's office to ask for help in dealing with difficult pupils are reprimanded for inability to effectively manage their classrooms. It's a no-win situation.
Send your kids to a private or parochial school, if you can afford it. Or, supplement the substandard education they get at school by tutoring them yourself, if you have the subject knowledge to do so. Watch the History Channel, Animal Planet, the Military Channel, and National Geographic together and discuss what you see with them. Bribe them to memorize Shakespeare or Chaucer, world capitals, languages, principal products or religions if you have to. But you have to take matters in hand. Don't just assume that the public schools are doing their job, and giving your kids the education they need, because chances are, they're not.

[hsh2]

I simply posted one university ranking. There are many, and no I don't know the methodology.

Your sources for your claim? And where were they taught?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_country
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fields_Medal
Do the math.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_country
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fields_Medal
Do the math.See the relationship in the post-WWII era and it is even more in favor of the US.

Subtract the US scientists who were actually educated in Europe or elsewhere and it evens out again.

One thing many (if not most) scientists will readily agree upon is that US institutions are better funded and allow more freedom to experiment than European institutions for example.

US education isn't universally poor, it does depend a lot on the school district and the social environment the kids come from. University level education the same, the quality varies quite greatly.

[Soldat_Américain]

When I was in High School I got kicked out a few times, and I was a good kid and honestly felt sorry, some people don't care but at my high school there was control in the classroom. However some students never cared, and if you threatened a teacher drastically no doubt there was a bullet heading your way. We had an on campus police officer, and the Police Station was five minutes away I remember a fight on campus(I always loved them because it was popcorn time) at minimum ten squad cars rolled up one day during a fight.

[hsh2]

See the relationship in the post-WWII era and it is even more in favor of the US.

Barely if at all. Look at the lists. Most European countries have clearly more Nobel prizes post WW2 than pre WW2.



Subtract the US scientists who were actually educated in Europe or elsewhere and it evens out again.There really aren't that many of those, same goes for the Europeans.

[BearInBunnySuit]

Having been educated in several different countries and states while growing up, I still believe the American education system has the most to offer in terms of creativity and development. While it is true that the level of knowledge/skills may not be on par with other societies with a strong emphasis on learning, we need to keep in mind that no other country attracts foreign students as much as the U.S. does.

We also need to remember that each country tailors its system to the need of its society. For example, in East Asia, curriculum is geared towards college entrance which is fraught with its own fallacies. In the U.S., the quality of public education often hinges on how affluent the neighborhood is.

I think where the American education system really shines through is at college/graduate school level. That's when people's minds are challenged, molded, and refined.

Having said that, I believe, to an extent, that it is up to the individual student to decide how much he/she wants to get out of the system and what to make of it.

[Hollis]

^^ excellent points. IMHO, the biggest problem with the school system (K-12) is not so much the schools as it is the parents.

[IraGlacialis]

Having been educated in several different countries and states while growing up, I still believe the American education system has the most to offer in terms of creativity and development. While it is true that the level of knowledge/skills may not be on par with other societies with a strong emphasis on learning, we need to keep in mind that no other country attracts foreign students as much as the U.S. does.

I think where the American education system really shines through is at college/graduate school level. That's when people's minds are challenged, molded, and refined.

Having said that, I believe, to an extent, that it is up to the individual student to decide how much he/she wants to get out of the system and what to make of it.Agreed.

I often joke that the best indicator of the level of education in a college is the amount of foreign students that are studying there.
College-level education, in general, has been going good and doesn't need tampering with. Though the current economic situation has madew many schools make tough decisions.

However, I still find that the public K-12 level is in bad need of an overhaul.
Parents need to be the ones to push for reformation. It just seems like too much apathy about education itself and too much concern about trivial stuff such as whether soccer should be in gym class.

And, of course, there comes the issue of schools in the inner-city. Any ideas?

[Narvaresearch]

As someone pointed out earlier, there are many distractions in American high school. That's not saying that teenagers in America are different from elsewhere, but region is more of a deciding factor for schooling than is intent to learn etc.

In Germany there are options such as Gymnasium, Hauptschule, and Realschule, which really give people a chance to focus earlier. This way those academics stay in Gymnasium, those who want to enter the work-force go to realschule and those in between Hauptschule. I find it interesting in America many go to university (and in our case spend quite a bit of money doing so). At my school it is 94% of graduates attend college! The problem with this is that, many will come out with large amounts of debt, but no real skill that can help them with the jobs needed (that realschule might provide). Six percent of the population can't be the plumbers, construction workers, painters etc...

[SoftLion]

And, of course, there comes the issue of schools in the inner-city. Any ideas?
Stop affirmative action so there isn't an excuse to avoid providing a proper education to minorities and the underrepresented, to help them qualify for colleges and jobs in closer proportion with their representation in the population.

[Narvaresearch]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_country
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fields_Medal
Do the math.

Alright so I did the math. I took the "modern" western European nations that had a population about (a little bit more) the same as the US and here is what I found.

List of Nobel laureates by country:

United Kingdom - 113 - Population: ~61Million
Italy - 20 - Population: ~ 60Million
France - 57 - Population: ~65Million
Germany - 102 - Population: ~82Million
Spain - 7 - Population: ~45Million

Total: 299. Total Population: ~313Million

United States Total: 309. Total Population: ~303Million

And that is just one sample calculation here. I'm too lazy to do too much math for this, but the numbers speak for themselves, wouldn't you say?

[Angelino]

Nobel prizes have a history of being badly skewed towards certain countries and males, especially in the sciences categories. For instance, Russians didn't get any Nobel prizes for years until there was a chance of them invading Sweden. Germans used to be pretty dominant in science categories until WW-II after which they fell out of favor with the Nobel committee. Mendeleyev was denied the Nobel prize for Chemistry because one judge didn't like Russians. Winston Churchill got a Nobel prize for Literature (or rather "Speech Delivery") after WW-II, even though the only books he wrote were his own memoirs. It is pretty widely acknowledged that there was sexism involved in not awarding Lise Meitner the Nobel prize for discovering Nuclear Fission! There was a Brazilian origin scientist who wasn't awarded a Nobel in the early 50s for physics for predicting the pi meson, but the prize went to his boss, an Englishman, supposedly because his boss was able to develop the photographic method for the particle that the Brazilian underling predicted. In reality the Brazilian scientist had not only worked out the theory about the pi meson, it was the Brazilian scientist and not his boss, who'd actually worked with Kodak to make the special film to take the pictures! Sciences are still skewed, e.g. there was a lot of controversy about the awarding of the 2005 Physics prize, as well as the 2006 Physics prize. In recent years, the Nobel committee has tried to compensate by awarding the soft categories (Peace, Economics, Literature) to Latin America, Africa, Asia etc. which is pretty screwed up as well, because it prevents any European or Americans from winning them.

Anyway, back to the US school system. We tend to give kids more options to study, instead of forcing them to concentrate on math and sciences like some countries do. So while your average American kid may not know as much math and physics as their Asian counterpart, we know how to apply what little we know better than they do. For instance, while an average Chinese kid may know all the theory about Carnot's cycle and Diesel cycle, ask him where the spark plug is on a car's engine and you'll get a clueless look, whereas an average American kid will not only point out the spark plug, but he'll also know how to extract it, clean it and put it back in.

While our school system may be inferior in theory subjects, our college systems are definitely better than a lot of other countries in both theory and practical stuff.

[Noble713]

US is without any doubt is scientific leader of the world (that is including its research and education institutions). However, this is, at least partially, due to globalization and much less government controlled/funded system of higher education. To put it simply, it seems that the same capitalistic system, which allows the US rich universities to compete on the global markets for the best professors and students, is unable at the same time to produce the sufficient local supply of human resources for these institutes.


I think this will eventually be our undoing. As the economies of other major nations continue to improve, incomes and the quality of their educational institutions will improve as well. Sooner or later the "brain drain" is going to slow to a trickle. When it does, the US will find:

1) It has insufficient highly-skilled personnel to run the country/economy.
2) It's education system is FAR too broken to fill the ranks.
3) As every facet of society finds itself being run by less-and-less competent folks, the country begins a slide into economic stagnation and mediocrity.
4) The US gets left behind while the rest of the world keeps on progressing.

[Holmes85]

I think this will eventually be our undoing. As the economies of other major nations continue to improve, incomes and the quality of their educational institutions will improve as well. Sooner or later the "brain drain" is going to slow to a trickle. When it does, the US will find:

1) It has insufficient highly-skilled personnel to run the country/economy.
2) It's education system is FAR too broken to fill the ranks.
3) As every facet of society finds itself being run by less-and-less competent folks, the country begins a slide into economic stagnation and mediocrity.
4) The US gets left behind while the rest of the world keeps on progressing.

You forgot 'The No Child Left Behind Act' on that list.

[IraGlacialis]

2) It's education system is FAR too broken to fill the ranks.
I was considering that. While our college-level institutions are top-notch, they will be, domestically, taking in under-performing students.

That means these universities will have only a few options:
1) Lowering the standards. Something that I shudder at the thought of.
2) Keeping high standards, resulting in a decreasing domestic student inflow. The result of that will be either downsized universities or universities with a disproportionate international-to-domestic student ratio. Tuition will probably be increased as well.

Both options have negative future consequences for American society. But I rather take my chances with the 2nd choice.
Hopefully, it won't come to that.

[el borracho]

This is a deep problem in which politicians and lawmakers have made little headway. This started during the 80's and 90's (maybe earlier, but I wasn't around to see it), when the "everyone's a winner!" and "A for effort" mentality started to take root in the school system many teachers quit thinking of high school as the final frontier for education. Students were being told that to get anywhere in life you need to attend college. They didn't stress the educational demands of higher learning, but instead made it sound like anyone could get a scholarship and basically walk their way through the major of their choice to land a fat career. Then you started to see a generation of art history majors and underwater basketweaving experts who left school with their hand out expecting someone to fork over a huge salary for them. Comprehension of basic skills was pushed back for college, of which not everyone gets to attend despite what your teachers told you, and employers are finding out that their prospects have only a loose grip on fundamental skills and now master's degrees are the new standard for the jobs that required only a BA/BS a generation ago.

Thirty years ago, high school provided enough of a well-rounded education to allow someone to get by in the world but the collective mentality of society said that being a mechanic or electrician wasn't good enough anymore and everyone should become a doctor or a lawyer, if nothing else for the money. Real skills, like wood, metal, and auto shop classes were seen as "easy A's" or the last option for perpetual deadbeats. Now we have an abundance of doctors and lawyers which directly contributed to the gigantic increase in frivolous lawsuits and bogus prescription drugs to treat (not cure) bogus diseases and symptoms (restless leg syndrome anyone?) over the last 15 years. Along with that, most people these days find nothing wrong with paying Big Al over at Big Al's Auto $500 for something relatively simple like an alternator replacement. Now tell me, who is actually making more money, the out of work lawyer with a mountain of student loans, or the mechanic who charges $80/hr for labor to replace batteries in fancy SUVs for owners too daft to know what the problem is?

Another issue, one which I experienced but I'm not sure how other schools handled this, is the teaching of core subjects, namely English. Again, back in the day, kids were drilled in all aspects of grammar, punctuation, etc. In my school years, from late elementary school onward English class was no longer about "i before e, except after c" but reading Shakespeare and Thoreau to a thoroughly disinterested student body. There was never any explanation to why one should learn the classic literature, but only that "it will help you get into college." I think the administration expected that by studying the masters students would inherently pick up their skills through osmosis. Obviously this didn't happen and now barely anyone under 30 can describe what an adverb is or use a semicolon properly. Do you think your boss gives a sh!t that you can quote excerpts from "Walden Pond" when you use words like "irregardless" and "conversate" with a straight face during an important presentation?

History also went by the wayside, especially because in the US that subject is not used to educate students but to ingrain propaganda on why their country is so great. If people knew and understood history they wouldn't be sh!tting their pants over the current "economic crisis" and realize that this has happened several times over in our history. How was it handled then? What steps did the government and average joe do to overcome it? They don't know, just like they don't know why other countries hate us (for our freedoms, duh) and think the Civil War had airplanes and was fought against Great Britain (which they can't find on a map).

American culture needs to relearn the real value of an education. It is not the means to an end for making money, but is the basis of forming competent adults to function in a society which is becoming increasingly globalized. Priorities need to be realigned to explain why you should learn how to build a fence or change a f*cking tire without relying on illegal immigrant labor to do it for you. If basic life skills like that were still taught then maybe, just maybe, we wouldn't have entire neighborhoods of f*ckwads living in McMansions that are on the brink of foreclosure because they lost their job as some superfluous consultant at a now defunct tech firm wondering what the hell happened to all their money when they make $60K a year, but live in a half-million dollar house and drive a $40 thousand dollar car. Bet their teachers never bothered to have the students run those numbers on their fancy TI-82 graphics calculator back in math class, huh?

[Koppo]

Excelent primary and secondary education system doesn't need to expensive. In the most recent PISA study it was found out that Luxemburg spent 10k dollars more per student than your average industrial country and still their math and science education was significantly worse than countries like lithuania which spent nearly 5 times less on education. In my opinion it's all about attitude to education in home and school that matters and you need to have competent teachers. Also there seems to be that worthless debate about intelligent design in biology class and other stuff like that which interfere in teaching.
From what i've heard some American colleges are for the first year like an extension to high school just to fill gaps in knowledge and still people stop studying after completing their BA and they still can get a job with it. I can't speak for other countries but here in Finland you can't find a job with BA because employers seem to think that BA gives you insufficient knowledge to function as full time employer (though tuition free university might creat over abudance of masters degree graduates in job market). I hope USA gets it pretertiary system back in track so i don't have to start learning chinese just because chinese would surpass english as science languge :p.

[hsh2]

Alright so I did the math. I took the "modern" western European nations that had a population about (a little bit more) the same as the US and here is what I found.

List of Nobel laureates by country:

United Kingdom - 113 - Population: ~61Million
Italy - 20 - Population: ~ 60Million
France - 57 - Population: ~65Million
Germany - 102 - Population: ~82Million
Spain - 7 - Population: ~45Million

Total: 299. Total Population: ~313Million

United States Total: 309. Total Population: ~303Million

And that is just one sample calculation here. I'm too lazy to do too much math for this, but the numbers speak for themselves, wouldn't you say?

haha how convenient it was to pick Spainrofl
Spain a representative modern European country...OK... (No offense to spanish members)

Replace Spain by Switzerland or Sweden or BOTH (CH+SWE=17Mio inhab.) and things look VERY differently.

United Kingdom - 113 - Population: ~61Million
Italy - 20 - Population: ~ 60Million
France - 57 - Population: ~65Million
Germany - 102 - Population: ~82Million
Switzerland - 25 -Pop: 7Mio

317 Nobel Prizes, 275Mio Inhabitants.

With Sweden there would 28 Prizes more and 9 Mio Inahbs more...and I'm not taking Denmark or Austria into account with whom we would still remain under 300Mio.

United Kingdom - 113 - Population: ~61Million
Italy - 20 - Population: ~ 60Million
France - 57 - Population: ~65Million
Germany - 102 - Population: ~82Million
Switzerland - 25 -Pop: 7Mio
Sweden - 28 - 9Mio
Denmark - 13 - 5 Mio
Austria - 19 - 8Mio

377Nobel Prizes, 297 Mio Inhabitants

or even + Norway - 11- 4Mio

388 Prizes, 301 Mio Inhabitants.

So yeah, the numbers speak for themselves indeed. Wether on relative or on absolute we win.

[Koppo]

Nobel prizes only give glimpse of past and in no way reflect present time. If you want to measure education system you should analyse results of education in whole, ie. economical performance on long term, number of quality scientific studies. By economic performance i mean how country is able to compete in better paying work with other countries (better paying job usualy means that some skill is required like arms designer vs. light industry shoe factory worker etc.)

[hsh2]

Nobel prizes only give glimpse of past and in no way reflect present time. If you want to measure education system you should analyse results of education in whole, ie. economical performance on long term, number of quality scientific studies. By economic performance i mean how country is able to compete in better paying work with other countries (better paying job usualy means that some skill is required like arms designer vs. light industry shoe factory worker etc.)

Me and Narvaresearch went offtopic a few pages back already in case you haven't noticed...

[IraGlacialis]

Bet their teachers never bothered to have the students run those numbers on their fancy TI-82 graphics calculator back in math class, huh?It's TI-89 now. Get with the times. p-)

They didn't stress the educational demands of higher learning, but instead made it sound like anyone could get a scholarship and basically walk their way through the major of their choice to land a fat career. Then you started to see a generation of art history majors and underwater basketweaving experts who left school with their hand out expecting someone to fork over a huge salary for them. Comprehension of basic skills was pushed back for college, of which not everyone gets to attend despite what your teachers told you, and employers are finding out that their prospects have only a loose grip on fundamental skills and now master's degrees are the new standard for the jobs that required only a BA/BS a generation ago.Which makes me wonder: is it bad of me to think that sports scholarships should not exceed half the tuition?
When I take pictures of my school's football games they would mention the major of the seniors. A good portion of them were labeled "general studies". WTF is that supposed to be used for?! And this is from a university that is specialized in engineering and science!
Hell, our football team sucks (to put it lightly) and most of the student body doesn't watch them, yet it still gets tons of money when the budget is allocated. On the other hand, our track team, which is full of kids who are not only conference champs but top of their class in specialized fields, is horrifically underfunded.
Besides, what is going to happen when that football player tears an ACL or something? What is he going to do with that general studies degree? He is probably going to use it to ****ing flip burgers.

Basically why prop up, or at least keep on life support, programs that seem to do nothing but put strain on the college system and promote students to just "pass through"?

*rant off*

And yes, I am aware there was some bias in my rant.

[XShipRider]

In my opinion it's all about attitude to education in home and school that matters and you need to have competent teachers.

The core of the problem indeed. Unfortunately, Uncle Sam has annexed parental responsibilities in America. Mom and dad, when there are actually two of them at home, don't want to grow up anymore to face real responsibility. They sit in front of the vidiot box either watching reality tv, as if it was real, playing video games or watching Hollywood movies all day - which malforms their view of the world in the process. Few read anymore and what they do read is all about feeling better about themselves for the bad choices they made, or continue to make, in life.

As for competent teachers, that was all solved through so-called "teaching credentials." I've said this before, both my grandmothers were teachers, neither had a college degree. Teaching reading and basic math to elementary age children does not take a degree, it takes dedication and discipline. My grandmothers were both nurturing people who knew how to instruct children, maintain strict discipline in the classroom, knew the value of recess and both produced students who could read, write (remember penmanship?) and perform basic math calculations both in their heads and on paper. Why do I bring this up? Because American education has become all about teacher qualifiers rather than student needs.

The overall problem with American education is our schools have become a system more about the teachers and the system itself rather than the students. Billions of dollars worth of studies to prove Johnny can't read has us coming up with 'whole word' reading and memorization rather than phonics, which was proven and worked for eons. Also, the PhDs of the world decided you needed to know about condoms in 5th grade instead of the 3 Rs. These new curriculums demanded an ever increasing teacher per student ratio but it never seemed to be quite good enough. Grades continued to slide or remain static. Solution? More teachers with higher pay. But wait, that fruitless approach has repeatedly failed to increase test scores. Solution? Grading curves or easier tests. Oops, the easier tests are too difficult because teachers teach the test rather than the basics or rules of math and reading. Solution? Repeat ad infinitum.

[hsh2]

The core of the problem indeed. Unfortunately, Uncle Sam has annexed parental responsibilities in America. Mom and dad, when there are actually two of them at home, don't want to grow up anymore to face real responsibility. They sit in front of the vidiot box either watching reality tv, as if it was real, playing video games or watching Hollywood movies all day - which malforms their view of the world in the process. Few read anymore and what they do read is all about feeling better about themselves for the bad choices they made, or continue to make, in life.

As for competent teachers, that was all solved through so-called "teaching credentials."

The overall problem with American education is our schools have become a system more about the teachers and the system itself rather than the students. Billions of dollars worth of studies to prove Johnny can't read has us coming up with 'whole word' reading and memorization rather than phonics, which was proven and worked for eons. Also, the PhDs of the world decided you needed to know about condoms in 5th grade instead of the 3 Rs. These new curriculums demanded an ever increasing teacher per student ratio but it never seemed to be quite good enough. Grades continued to slide or remain static. Solution? More teachers with higher pay. But wait, that fruitless approach has repeatedly failed to increase test scores. Solution? Grading curves or easier tests. Oops, the easier tests are too difficult because teachers teach the test rather than the basics or rules of math and reading. Solution? Repeat ad infinitum.

Excellent post.

[Koppo]

As for competent teachers, that was all solved through so-called "teaching credentials." I've said this before, both my grandmothers were teachers, neither had a college degree. Teaching reading and basic math to elementary age children does not take a degree, it takes dedication and discipline. My grandmothers were both nurturing people who knew how to instruct children, maintain strict discipline in the classroom, knew the value of recess and both produced students who could read, write (remember penmanship?) and perform basic math calculations both in their heads and on paper. Why do I bring this up? Because American education has become all about teacher qualifiers rather than student needs.

Well actualy requiring even elementary school teachers to have 6 years of university education about educating provides very good results. Sure you need dedication and some discipline, but too much formality simply doesn't work with kids and you need to apply special teaching methods that are very diffrent from how you would teach older students in order to motivate them.. Atleast that's what my friend who is studying to become elementary school teacher keeps telling me :D. I don't know if teachers in US have diffrent requirements for diffrent levels of teaching, but it certainly would be worthwhile to experiment if you don't. Teachers should be respected in society as well so it's not just a profession where failures end up. It should have a huge impact on education when teaching is a respected profession encouraging people with good gifts to teaching and other good qualities to teaching. For some comparison teachers get very ****ty wages here, but after medical, law and business schools it's the hardest school to get in to because some people really want to help others to reach their full potential or something else corny shyte like that..

[MaDuce]

I belive the decline is due to discipline, and holding students to standards becoming politically incorrect.

[Narvaresearch]

Yes, you can pick and choose to fit your point, but I'd venture to say it is about the same. Because the United States is one large country we cannot splice portions of the country to make the numbers look better like you can with Switzerland, Denmark etc. etc. Take out the populations of our farming states and you'll see we're probably still pretty similar.


Spain a representative modern European country...OK... (No offense to spanish members)

Replace Spain by Switzerland or Sweden or BOTH (CH+SWE=17Mio inhab.) and things look VERY differently.

United Kingdom - 113 - Population: ~61Million
Italy - 20 - Population: ~ 60Million
France - 57 - Population: ~65Million
Germany - 102 - Population: ~82Million
Switzerland - 25 -Pop: 7Mio

317 Nobel Prizes, 275Mio Inhabitants.

With Sweden there would 28 Prizes more and 9 Mio Inahbs more...and I'm not taking Denmark or Austria into account with whom we would still remain under 300Mio.

United Kingdom - 113 - Population: ~61Million
Italy - 20 - Population: ~ 60Million
France - 57 - Population: ~65Million
Germany - 102 - Population: ~82Million
Switzerland - 25 -Pop: 7Mio
Sweden - 28 - 9Mio
Denmark - 13 - 5 Mio
Austria - 19 - 8Mio

377Nobel Prizes, 297 Mio Inhabitants

or even + Norway - 11- 4Mio

388 Prizes, 301 Mio Inhabitants.

So yeah, the numbers speak for themselves indeed. Wether on relative or on absolute we win.

I agree fully. More parents in the United States need to take a proactive approach in their children's education. It is far too common for me to see parents who are far more involved in their own activities with work friends, or watching television all the time. Not only does this lack of attention to a children's education cause problems originally, it's also a horrible representation of what is "okay" or "standard" for the kids to follow. If you see your parents watching TV all day, what is to stop you from doing the same...

Some of the brightest kids that I know have extremely active parents. This is one of the keys.


The core of the problem indeed. Unfortunately, Uncle Sam has annexed parental responsibilities in America. Mom and dad, when there are actually two of them at home, don't want to grow up anymore to face real responsibility. They sit in front of the vidiot box either watching reality tv, as if it was real, playing video games or watching Hollywood movies all day - which malforms their view of the world in the process. Few read anymore and what they do read is all about feeling better about themselves for the bad choices they made, or continue to make, in life.

As for competent teachers, that was all solved through so-called "teaching credentials." I've said this before, both my grandmothers were teachers, neither had a college degree. Teaching reading and basic math to elementary age children does not take a degree, it takes dedication and discipline. My grandmothers were both nurturing people who knew how to instruct children, maintain strict discipline in the classroom, knew the value of recess and both produced students who could read, write (remember penmanship?) and perform basic math calculations both in their heads and on paper. Why do I bring this up? Because American education has become all about teacher qualifiers rather than student needs.

[hsh2]

Yes, you can pick and choose to fit your point, but I'd venture to say it is about the same. Because the United States is one large country we cannot splice portions of the country to make the numbers look better like you can with Switzerland, Denmark etc. etc. Take out the populations of our farming states and you'll see we're probably still pretty similar.


Yes you could do that indeed...but so could we. (Besides there are tons of univserities in flyover country as well, it's not like the only unis were at the 2 coasts.) Ridding yourself of the farming states wouldn't ameliorate the situation much I guess, because well, they are empty:

Edit: btw i additioned the metropolitan areas of the cities where americas best unis are namely the Ivy Leagues+MIT, Uni Chicago and the west coast unis Caltech/Berkeley/UCLA/Stanford.

I came up with roughly 60mio inhabitants for 309NB = 1 NB for every 194000 Inhabitants

I did the same with the metro regions of Basel, Geneva and Zurich because they're the ones that win the prizes, not Lausanne/St Gallen etc and came up with the following numbers
3.68 Mio inhabitants for 25NB = 1 NB for every 14700 Inhabitants.

So yeah we still have the edge...which of course doesn't mean that the USA are a nation of cavemen. Bien entendu.

Edit2: one more precision. I compared the metro regions rather than the urban regions per se because that tilts the numbers in favor of the US ratios. But even then it doesn't suffice...
http://sedac.ciesin.org/wdc/downloads/maps/population/GPWv3_Population_Density_Grids/Population_Density_2000_United_States.jpg

[Narvaresearch]

That is still millions of people. I think we can fit numbers to each other's point of view here, but do not misunderstand me. I do not think the US educational system is better than the European, I only feel it is too hard to compare the two to get a proper account of which one is "better".


Yes you could do that indeed...but so could we. (Besides there are tons of univserities in flyover country as well, it's not like the only unis were at the 2 coasts.) Ridding yourself of the farming states wouldn't ameliorate the situation much I guess, because well, they are empty:

http://sedac.ciesin.org/wdc/downloads/maps/population/GPWv3_Population_Density_Grids/Population_Density_2000_United_States.jpg

[gaijinsamurai]

This is a deep problem in which politicians and lawmakers have made little headway. This started during the 80's and 90's (maybe earlier, but I wasn't around to see it), when the "everyone's a winner!" and "A for effort" mentality started to take root in the school system many teachers quit thinking of high school as the final frontier for education. Students were being told that to get anywhere in life you need to attend college. They didn't stress the educational demands of higher learning, but instead made it sound like anyone could get a scholarship and basically walk their way through the major of their choice to land a fat career. Then you started to see a generation of art history majors and underwater basketweaving experts who left school with their hand out expecting someone to fork over a huge salary for them. Comprehension of basic skills was pushed back for college, of which not everyone gets to attend despite what your teachers told you, and employers are finding out that their prospects have only a loose grip on fundamental skills and now master's degrees are the new standard for the jobs that required only a BA/BS a generation ago.

Thirty years ago, high school provided enough of a well-rounded education to allow someone to get by in the world but the collective mentality of society said that being a mechanic or electrician wasn't good enough anymore and everyone should become a doctor or a lawyer, if nothing else for the money. Real skills, like wood, metal, and auto shop classes were seen as "easy A's" or the last option for perpetual deadbeats. Now we have an abundance of doctors and lawyers which directly contributed to the gigantic increase in frivolous lawsuits and bogus prescription drugs to treat (not cure) bogus diseases and symptoms (restless leg syndrome anyone?) over the last 15 years. Along with that, most people these days find nothing wrong with paying Big Al over at Big Al's Auto $500 for something relatively simple like an alternator replacement. Now tell me, who is actually making more money, the out of work lawyer with a mountain of student loans, or the mechanic who charges $80/hr for labor to replace batteries in fancy SUVs for owners too daft to know what the problem is?

Another issue, one which I experienced but I'm not sure how other schools handled this, is the teaching of core subjects, namely English. Again, back in the day, kids were drilled in all aspects of grammar, punctuation, etc. In my school years, from late elementary school onward English class was no longer about "i before e, except after c" but reading Shakespeare and Thoreau to a thoroughly disinterested student body. There was never any explanation to why one should learn the classic literature, but only that "it will help you get into college." I think the administration expected that by studying the masters students would inherently pick up their skills through osmosis. Obviously this didn't happen and now barely anyone under 30 can describe what an adverb is or use a semicolon properly. Do you think your boss gives a sh!t that you can quote excerpts from "Walden Pond" when you use words like "irregardless" and "conversate" with a straight face during an important presentation?

History also went by the wayside, especially because in the US that subject is not used to educate students but to ingrain propaganda on why their country is so great. If people knew and understood history they wouldn't be sh!tting their pants over the current "economic crisis" and realize that this has happened several times over in our history. How was it handled then? What steps did the government and average joe do to overcome it? They don't know, just like they don't know why other countries hate us (for our freedoms, duh) and think the Civil War had airplanes and was fought against Great Britain (which they can't find on a map).

American culture needs to relearn the real value of an education. It is not the means to an end for making money, but is the basis of forming competent adults to function in a society which is becoming increasingly globalized. Priorities need to be realigned to explain why you should learn how to build a fence or change a f*cking tire without relying on illegal immigrant labor to do it for you. If basic life skills like that were still taught then maybe, just maybe, we wouldn't have entire neighborhoods of f*ckwads living in McMansions that are on the brink of foreclosure because they lost their job as some superfluous consultant at a now defunct tech firm wondering what the hell happened to all their money when they make $60K a year, but live in a half-million dollar house and drive a $40 thousand dollar car. Bet their teachers never bothered to have the students run those numbers on their fancy TI-82 graphics calculator back in math class, huh?

Excellent post!!

[Atlantic Friend]

Why is it that children in Europe etc often speak two languages fluently and have mastered math and sciences by the time they finish high school; while many Americans can hardly speak English properly.

From what I've seen, there are many Americans who believe they shouldn't have to learn any foreign language, it's foreigners who should speak English instead, not only when coming to the US but in their home country as well so they can be understood by US tourists.

When I was in college, I read about this story - which may or may not be true - about a US school. It was a private, religious school which banned foreign languages classes on the grounds that "since English was good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for us".

[Koppo]

When I was in college, I read about this story - which may or may not be true - about a US school. It was a private, religious school which banned foreign languages classes on the grounds that "since English was good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for us".

Haha, that sounds too absurd to be true but then again one shouldn't underestimate human capacity for stupidity.

[XShipRider]

From what I've seen, there are many Americans who believe they shouldn't have to learn any foreign language, it's foreigners who should speak English instead, not only when coming to the US but in their home country as well so they can be understood by US tourists.

When I was in college, I read about this story - which may or may not be true - about a US school. It was a private, religious school which banned foreign languages classes on the grounds that "since English was good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for us".

There should never be a requirement to learn a foreign language. Frankly, most Americans never leave the country so the benefit is lost. Those that do often take enough of a foreign language to get by, or at least order dinner, find their hotel and such. I've found that those that took Spanish, French, Italian or Russian in high school have never used it after graduating. In fact, most lose the ability to hold a conversation because of the paucity of use. I just don't see the benefit for a majority of the populace. Then again, it's all about exposure to something different in our school system.

My understanding is EU nations teach English as a second, or universal if you will, language in primary school. True or not I don't know for certain. Though it makes sense if you're going to have one socio-economic binding there must be a common language as a base. If true, why would it be arrogant for an American to expect at least cursory understanding when visiting an EU nation? Though I do think you're wrong since few Americans expect to visit China and hear English, except maybe in a Hilton hotel.

I'd be all for expecting people to speak any language of a nation which they are going to visit/tour. This might destroy the global tourist industry as we know it which is okay with me. Just kidding.

Yeah, I'm quite sure the latter of your post is some internet legend which has grown legs.

[Atlantic Friend]

There should never be a requirement to learn a foreign language. Frankly, most Americans never leave the country so the benefit is lost. Those that do often take enough of a foreign language to get by, or at least order dinner, find their hotel and such. I've found that those that took Spanish, French, Italian or Russian in high school have never used it after graduating. In fact, most lose the ability to hold a conversation because of the paucity of use. I just don't see the benefit for a majority of the populace. Then again, it's all about exposure to something different in our school system.

You know, most Europeans taking foreign languages classes won't travel to a country linked to that language either, and will lead a happy and productive life using nothing but their native language as well. I majored in Spanish in college, I took German and Serbo-Croatian classes as well, and it's not something I use at work. But having taken those classes gave me the opportunity to keep practicing (which can also be done by reading books and magazines, and therefore gaining a broader view of the world by increasing the number of publications/websites/authors you can access).


My understanding is EU nations teach English as a second, or universal if you will, language in primary school. True or not I don't know for certain.

True. English classes begin in kindergarten now.



Though it makes sense if you're going to have one socio-economic binding there must be a common language as a base. If true, why would it be arrogant for an American to expect at least cursory understanding when visiting an EU nation?

The issue is not arrogance - though IMHO any group of people thinking it's others who have to make the effort to understand them is showing early symptoms of it.

The issue was to partially answer this question :


Why is it that children in Europe etc often speak two languages fluently and have mastered math and sciences by the time they finish high school; while many Americans can hardly speak English properly.

And my answer is : it is possible because while European children will be exposed to - and learn at least the basics of - foreign languages at an early age this does not seem to be particularly the case in the US, leading quite logically to a "language gap".


Though I do think you're wrong since few Americans expect to visit China and hear English, except maybe in a Hilton hotel.

Unless we're talking about real adventurers looking forward to spend time in a country where they won't be understood at all and whose languages they most probably do not speak themselves, they at least expect to hear it from an interpreter, and the local authorities.

I'd be all for expecting people to speak any language of a nation which they are going to visit/tour. This might destroy the global tourist industry as we know it which is okay with me. Just kidding.


Yeah, I'm quite sure the latter of your post is some internet legend which has grown legs.

Might very well be... though one can never be sure.

[XShipRider]

AF: You have to understand, most Americans suffer from a myopic view of the world. My country right or wrong still holds true in many quarters. And I would certainly agree many, many people do not make even the most basic attempt at being understood when visiting foreign countries. Unless you consider speaking slower and louder a form of local dialect.

But we as a nation are changing or shifting attitudes toward foreign language. My son's public school (he starts 6th grade in the fall) requires two years of foreign language. Spanish and French are the two most notable though other European languages are offered. I don't believe Asian languages are taught, at least not yet, Russian being an exception.