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Duke
07-22-2003, 08:10 PM
After the Bravo Two Zero documentary, the History Channel had some sort of knife fighting show. What pissed me off was their overhand technique. In the USMC, we have a long history with knife fighting especially with from the east asian influence. I learned from my OI that the underhand grip was a better overall technique. By underhand I mean holding the knife point downwards versus the overhand with the knife point upwards.

The underhand technique superiority lies in its slashing move, it doesnt offer the opponent an easy grip or counter compared to the overhand. Meaning--with the underhand, you slash upwards using the blade no the point, then you can come back downwards. With the overhand, its much like a punch. You try to stab with the point, and thus offering your opponent your arm and as well as commit more balance than the underhand.

Any thoughts. What is the Army doctrine on knife fighting.

Apogee
07-22-2003, 08:21 PM
I happen to be an Army Combatives Instructer here at West Point. And we are teaching knife fighting. Both dagger up (point up) and dagger down (point down) are legit styles. The Army doesn't have a real doctrine for this but we have a resident expert.

We teach both styles. The dagger down works well if your weapon were to be grabbed or something in a CQB situation and you were to have the knife on your chest pouch or on your theigh.

Dagger up is better for slashing though. It provides a better opportunity to counter attack your opponents knife arm after he attacks. The host of the show last night didn't have it exactly right. Most people aren't going to react well to getting slashed in the arm.

I have to put a disclaimer on all of this. More often than not, you realize that you are in a knife fight when you are stabbed or you stab your enemy. They aren't normally a West Side Story type of deal with two people circling each other with knives. Anyways, thats my 75 cents.

Duke
07-22-2003, 08:24 PM
In a straight up knife to knife fight, is your intention kill move or the opponents fingers holding the knife?

Apogee
07-22-2003, 08:27 PM
In a combat situation, getting a hand shot or an arm shot will give you the split second where you can do in with the killer shot to the neck or go for the stomach. We need to remeber that most people will be wearing some sort of web gear or flak vest on the battlefield. The point here is not necessarily to kill your opponent, but to live long enough until your buddy shows up with his rifle.

Duke
07-22-2003, 08:29 PM
Also, is your stance square/shoulder's square or closed/shoulder pointed at opponent.
On a funny story, in officer training for knife fighting, my Officer Instructor said, "If a person uses the point up grip, you're okay--most likely doesn't know how to use a knife. However, if he uses point down your ****ed--so run."

Duke
07-22-2003, 08:34 PM
No I'm asking for knife fighting technique. To understand what your teaching. In the Marine Corps we teach kill move, kill move, kill move and move on. While my martial arts training focuses on the immediate threat which is the knife.

Apogee
07-22-2003, 08:37 PM
We use a stance where you are facing the opponent. I've got some pictures from our classes if you want me to email them to ya.

Duke
07-22-2003, 08:42 PM
PM

hood
07-22-2003, 09:15 PM
If it's the type of thing I'd be allowed to post on here, I'm offering that if you'd like me to. In my martial arts experience we always focused on ways to use the opponents knife against him, or to disarm him of it. Unfortunately we didn't spend much time on actually using it. They focused on other things like the double sticks and jo. It was funny though when we did a few practice knife fights where we'd put a bunch of magic marker on the plastic knives so we could tell where your opponent got you. I fought a 5th degree black belt who was a foot shorter than me. I managed to get a few marks on his thigh and bicep of his right arm, but after we stepped back and looked in the mirror, I noticed that I looked like a zebra with *****es going across most of the fatal points. rofl

USAF G
07-22-2003, 09:18 PM
I've heard that, you can judge someone's skill by whether they hold the knife in an ice pick type grip or a blade up type grip, as well. :( Then I started to learn some knife fighting and defense techniques, and I realized that prejudging like that will get you killed, especially if the person attacking you is trained in Kali or a similar fighting art. They teach different grips for different situations, and ranges. An ice pick or blade down grip, for example, will reduce your reach and is probably better suited for close in. A heaven, or blade up, grip is better suited for longer range (reach). There are a lot of techniques that involve "defanging the snake", ie blocking or redirecting an attack while at the same time damaging or cutting the attacking limb, thereby taking it out of the fight.

Ultimately, what I am learning as I study this more is, getting into a knife fight is a really bad idea and everyone gets cut. Learing how to fight will, however help to limit the damage done to you, and allow you to potentially last long enough to defend yourself, whether it's with your own knife, hands, or gun. Also if it's a little Phillipino or Indonesian guy, coming at me with a knife, I'm gonna run. It's a cultural thing with those folks. Just my two cents. ;) G

Apogee
07-22-2003, 09:22 PM
I completely agree with USAF G. A knife fight should be your very last resort. Thats why we train so much more with our distance weapons. But I do think its something the military (at least the US military) has overlooked for a good while.

USAF G
07-22-2003, 09:27 PM
Absolutely, the military needs to adress knife defense, especially with all the crowded neighborhoods we can be deployed to these days. I was at a Guru Dan Inosanto seminar last year, and he said that one needs to understand knife fighting in order to be able to defend against an attack with a knife. :) G

a. enders
07-22-2003, 11:48 PM
How's this from my own home brew technique:

DO NOT GET STUCK

Trust me on that one.9 out of 10 fighters agree.Just imagine what happened to the dissenting voter.

ibstolidude
07-23-2003, 12:21 AM
I would think the best technique would be to carry a sidearm as a secondary and keep excellant awareness of your personal space. If some ******* actually squares up on you (I guess he saw too many movies) and pulls a knife shoot him right out of the holster and then go stuck the thing in the offenders ear until the hilt meets ear canal - if the resistance is tight use your boot as a hammer. :|

I don't like knives - that could be a loooooong slow death waiting on a ride out.

hood
07-23-2003, 12:32 AM
Well i posted an article on here a little while ago about an SF soldier getting a medal because he took out 4 or more taliban without using a gun. They mentioned that his encounter was the only known hand to hand combat event of the whole Afghanistan engagement. Countless people study martial arts in the US. What percentage ever actually gets attacked on the street where that knowledge can be used? The number is too low to register. You train because you enjoy it, and because you can fall back on that training in the lightning strike chance of it happening.

ibstolidude
07-23-2003, 12:48 AM
I would agree about the martial arts - certainly they (like most knowlede can give one the edge) the problem I see in the application of that to the military is that again it is a rarity in use (army wide)...allthough combatives are practiced and taught it would not be high on my priority list compared to many other skills needed as a soldier.

digrar
07-23-2003, 01:07 AM
Having been exposed to Military strengh capsicum spray (we were told it is about 3 times stronger than what our police use here in Australia), I think that spraying someone from two or three metres away seems a better option than closing in on a highly adrenalin charged oponent with a knife.
It takes all of five minutes to be instructed on how to use the spray and you don't need to continually practice the skill.
In the Australian army if you are going to carry OC spray you have to be exposed to it, it takes about half an hour to get over the effects and then you are considered competent and able to carry and use the spray.
While knowing how to knife fight may come in handy it is a high risk way of taking on a enemy and I don't think the leatherman I carried or the Army issued Buck bayonet is up to the task of close knife fighting combat.

StealthMode
07-23-2003, 02:49 AM
Hey Duke, I also have been told that if a person holds their knive with the point facing you that they probably dont know how to use it.

-There main intention is to keep you away and to back off
-If they are holding it with the point down they probably have had some training and you should consider the lethality of the situation.
These comments were made to me by a very skilled Japanese Ju Jitsu teacher, and not a military pro, but It makes sense to me. Ive trained in Kenjutsu (bladed weapons) techniques and I believe the point down is a much better technique to hold a knife for several reasons.
-One of which is concealment....although your opponent probably knows you have a knife in your hand, he may not see what your going to do with it while you take his attention off of the knife.
-This is just one aspect that may give you an advantage.... and should be utilized
-A knife fight will probably over in under 10 seconds and a couple strikes, your first one should be fatal and fast. Just my expereince and thoughts

martinexsquaddie
07-23-2003, 04:40 AM
Knife fighting Ok for SOF types but most basic infantry types would benefit from more range time.
I did some martial art training and we did sparing with magic markers the guy i was against was a black belt well I just stabbed full thrust got him in the chest he got me on the arm. the instructor pointed that out as a prime example of how you can lose a knife fight even against a completely untrained Fool who gets lucky:).
I found over 6 years in service I got much more use out of a swiss army knife than I ever did out of my cold steel recon tanto :lol:
eventually gave it to my sensi Well my partner did not really like having a combat knife in the house women are funny like that :o
and I was'nt ever going to need it

Beloved Shiv
07-23-2003, 10:01 AM
Paul Vunak reviews some theorized priorities when in a knife fight, in his Jeet Kune Do training tape specific to combat with blades.

He went over them starting with basic situational awareness, basic combatives, leading up to the most important concept you should bear in mind when confronted with a knife.

It was profound to have the best student of Bruce Lee's best training partner (Dan Inosanto) recommend, "Run away - you will get cut, you will get hurt."

digrar
07-23-2003, 10:04 AM
How many young soldiers do you see with knives. Heaps.
How many older soldiers do you see with knives. Bugger all. No one like carrying extra weight that never gets used.

XASA
07-23-2003, 12:05 PM
Great tips Duke, USMC_Scuba and Hood. Wish I had them back when I was a kid hanging out on the mean streets of metropolitan New York City in the early 1960s. Since then, all the punks have turned in their switchblades for pistols.

I once met Jim Morris, ex-SF officer and Vietnam veteran and author of "War Story," when we were working for the same employer on different projects. Jim ask me what knife would I prefer in a knife fight. My response was none because ASA was trained never to let the enemy get that close. Morris laughed and said that was a good answer.

Knife fighting like bayonet drill is a great training tool; however, when the s*** hits the fan, give me a radio to call in an air strike, if that doesn't work, artillery, and, if there's still a problem, armor support. If I'm out of ammo and all I have left is a knife, I would think it's time to hastily retreat and live to fight another day ;)

StealthMode
07-23-2003, 12:28 PM
I experienced the same comments, and in the martial arts I have trained in, and I am sure in others... we are tought to PLAN and EXPECT to be injured by the knife, to lessen the shock of it. Of course you cant prepare enough for an injury like that, but at least your mindset around a knife and training in a manner to expect injure can make you less afraid to fear the blade and allow you close in to make a strike yourself.

Trigger
07-23-2003, 12:47 PM
I don't have any business posting on this thread, but good stuff guys! woot

ibstolidude
07-23-2003, 01:07 PM
I guess I was taught different than the honorable crowd...I would never square up on a dude with a knife unless he was well away and I had a gun...I would pick up anything and try and kill the sob with it. That dude is trying to KILL you, screw the "judo flip" if you don't have it 100% mastered you'll just get killed, and go for the "wrench his freakin head off technique" coupled with the "bite him in the face a spit the blood into his own eyes move" and add a dash "stomp the crap out of him until is body turnrs to goo, while he is on the ground" stance #4 or the popular "elsmacko the heado in the pavemento"
I would cry, whimper, piss myself and beg for life..then take my hat (a tactic that has given me first crack in several a brawl), a hankerchief, sand whatever and toss it at his face (hurray for involountary reflex and sympathetic eye movement) and then lock the arm and attempt to drag him down...and hope that I don't get cut and bleed out before I choke him to death.

But I am no kung-fo master, I lack the skills others may have. The extend of my maritial arts was some AIkido, years ago, for balance and closing, grappling and striking taught regularily by combatives ... I prefer the keep simple and keep it usable...everything taught from the same free stance (actually all our shooting is also done from this same stance- so that you are always prepared - in theory)

Cpl Stumps
07-23-2003, 01:57 PM
Since Duke is a Marine Officer, I'll chime in with what I was taught as an enlisted Marine which happens to echo what Duke said. While at WFTbn at Camp Pendleton, our LINE Instructor was teaching us knife fighting and said basically the same thing, that having the knife in a down position was far better. As an enlisted Marine I was glad to receive this instruction. Our PMIs taught us pretty good about how to engage targets out to 500 yds, it was nice to know how to use the K-Bar if the need ever arose.

Having worked security at a local Hotel/Casino while going to college, our training included defensive tactics. We were told that a person with a knife is a severe threat and deadly if they are within 21 feet of you. In the time it takes for them to run at you, most people can't draw their weapons, aim and fire. We watched many videos of training of Police Officers who couldn't do it. Most of the officers turned from their attackers.

You might say that on the battle field you have that rifle and distance on your side. But when I was at "The Stumps" we awarded a Purple Heart to a Marine who was standing guard duty with his rifle and got stabbed in the arm by a Somali with a tire iron.

hood
07-23-2003, 02:13 PM
Here are the photos that usma_scuba sent in.

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/view_album.php?set_albumName=CQC_at_West_Point

ibstolidude
07-23-2003, 02:36 PM
Stumps - I too have seen those videos - and those armed assailants with that degree of knife skill are the exception not the norm and the average police officers that I know do not train regularly (or sufficiently in my onion) in shooting from the anchor point/immediately after the weapon is drawn (from the hip so to speak)... thus the reason why many in the military train to shoot in such a manner, and practice drawing and firing from movement (all directions), a reverse ****e (on back), from anchor point with none firing hand defending upper body etc also often used in weapon retention with a side arm. Dynamic exercises are the only way to create the muscle memory required to do such tasks proficiently - I would rather spend my time creating that profienciency than practicing hit someone with a stick or defending unarmed with a stick....although that is knowledge I would like to be more proficient in..If I made my own personal METL "unarmed defense against knifes" is not at the peak, although we have done such in regular combatives it is not a commonly needed skill compared to others.

just my experience/opinion

Also in the attched pictures there is a lot of space inbetween the fighters - I have not been a fight with that kind of distance since gradeschool. Is that distance being used as the guys have weapons or is it used for teaching points or are those dudes taught to leave that much distance? or do he photos just reflect them trying to close the distance? - just asking/ not really criticing as I wasn't there to see it - pics rarely do justice.

Duke
07-23-2003, 04:32 PM
Cadet,
Thanks for the pics.

Apogee
07-23-2003, 05:27 PM
In some of the pictures they are closing distance. We teach them to use space to their advantage. If you are at projectile range, then your opponent will not be able to effectivly strike you. In some of the pictures they are at a proper distance for stick fighting. We teach them and drill them this way to teach engagment distance, that is the most effective distance to hit someone with a blunt object. In other pictures they are closing distance, namely photos 1 and 4. Another factor is safety. We aren't trying to get the new cadets or yearlings hurt as they have lots of other training to complete in the summer.

USAF G
07-23-2003, 05:48 PM
USMA_SCUBA,

Those are some very cool pictures. Is your knife training derived from any existing martial arts? I ask because that looks a lot like the kind of drills and movements we do while practicing Kali. It's hard for me to tell, though, because they are still photos. When we practice, we too, slow down, open up the distance a bit, and make our angles big and well defined in order for good learning to take place. There is time later to practice the "jailhouse" type attacks (fast asnd short thrusts) one would be more likely to come across on the street. :)

Some food for thought: nationwide, the survival rate for multiple stab woulds is less than 15%. If the victom is taken to a level one trauma center, the survival rate for multiple gunshot wounds is 85%. So, if badguy A is coming at good guy B with a knife, and B does nothing to stop the knife, instead drawing his gun and shooting A, and gets stabbed before A is incapacitated, it is not an equal trade. B loses. We can all talk about one shot stops, but the statistics, for handguns, just won't bear that out, so we might want to be able to deal with the knife before going to the gun (which is a distance tool). ;)

Oh, I have practiced the Tueller drill (the famous 21' drill) and seen others do it, and even with a very fast shooter, with an excellent speed rock and first shot, it's basically impossible to shoot the BG before he runs you over, if you don't move. Cheers, G

ibstolidude
07-23-2003, 06:12 PM
If you don't move you DESERVE to be stabbed. Thus the reason people are taught to use one hand to defend and draw with their shooting hand. And any soldier that believes you shoot a man once is also looking for a hurting...you shoot a man until he drops..then give him one for good measure.
I would rather take a slash on the forearm and drop the dude and be ready for the other threats with my pistol drawn...unless I met a lone knife welding manic on a mision while I was also alone and he got up close to me with out me stopping him or moving away or placing objects inbetween us like chairs and tables etc..

I agree 100% that is why so many experienced soldiers carry knifes instead of handguns as secondary weapons... oppsie sarcasm.
- if you are with in arms length of me while in the conduct of a mission I have one of the below:
1. trust you
2. covering you with a drawn weapon or am at a low ready
3. you are sitting or kneeling / or have objects between us - as we speak
4. I continue to attempt to stand at your oblique and like to place my terp in the line of fire (sucks to be him)
5. I have at least one hand up to keep your attention talking ( i prefer to rub my chin and use my open hand as if pointing to the person I am speaking), and to maintain some sembelence of ready position and my right hand rest on my hip above my pistol.
6. and guess what if you come at me from an angle I can't cover and a buddy does not catch then I guess I'll eat it such is life...no can be 100% prepared/covered.

In the numerous trips abroad I have never seen anyone attack compratriot with a knife although I have seen a idiot drop one into his foot when drunk.

there is no question that on the whole the damage that a knife does is often more severe than a gunshot wound.

USAF G
07-23-2003, 06:18 PM
My bad, I was talking about any situation and not just while on patrol. :oops: Of course you're right, in that situation, no one should get that close to you. I was thinking about everyday life. How often do complete strangers get to within "handshake" distance of us? What if you turned and saw that one of these strangers had a steak knife raised up in order to stab you? Ask me why I use that example. ;)

ibstolidude
07-23-2003, 06:22 PM
I would CERTAINLY agree with that!

I think we just got our commo mixed; my posts on this thread have really only been applicable to the military. It is the experience I draw on, I would not consider my self a martial artist in hand to hand combat -
Certainly being stuck in a club, bar subway or mugging in many US urban areas is a realistic possibility these days.

USAF G
07-23-2003, 06:25 PM
Roger that! I would much rather keep things where I can see them coming. p-) Cheers, G

HooyahCQB
07-23-2003, 06:31 PM
I have a series of tapes of this guy and assisstants who teach Combat Jeet Kune Do..Bruce Lee's developed form of Martial Arts. I myself am a black belt in Tai Kwon Do..but most of what they tought us was for sparring. Fighting with rules. So anyway...the teacher in this film is a 'barfight' veteran. He's been bouncers many times and has his own facility to teach Combat JKD Street fighting to people. In the knife fighting section of his video...he teaches the 'down' grip many of you are referring to, but with the cutting edge inword. This is explained through the techniques used and It would take to long for me to explain why not blade outward. Anyway...he teaches that people who come at you blade down in a high stab motion do not have knife fighting training. Similarly those who go with a knife up stab motion do not have training. Then he says if the oponent has two knives, one up, one down...run away, cause the training tapes dont' go that far. All his knife fighting techniques go for the kill, often rendering the knife arm useless on the way to the back of the neck. Its a really great program, sometimes in 'Things you never knew existed' catalog.

USAF G
07-23-2003, 06:36 PM
Once again, trying to judge skill, by blade up or down, can get you killed if your opponent is truely skilled, or if he/she is just really agressive. I would strongly recomend taking any knife threat or attack seriously, even if it's from a middleaged woman wearing a pink bathrobe. :| That's not an attack on your post. I just really don't want some young person to read this and then underestimate someone with a knife based on what they have heard. ;)

Duke
07-23-2003, 06:40 PM
Let me just say, having the point down or up is not a strong indicator of knife fighting experience. It simply indicates the limitation/specific type of attack/defense your opponent can utilize. Both can slice your femoral vein.
As for JKD, if it's not Jun Fan JKD, I'm very suspicious of their authority.

Apogee
07-23-2003, 10:14 PM
What we are teaching is based off of the Philipino Martial Arts, but primarily Kali.

As far as combat applicability, this is of course a last ditch effort. We talked to some of the Ranger Recon teams down at Benning and they all said they were at some point or another engaged in some sort of hand to hand or hand to weapon fighting in Afganistan. I also heard about the SF MSG that took down those guys in the room with his hand. Lastly, one of the situations we talked about was clearing rooms and having your M-4 (or whatever you were carrying at the time) pushed against you or the wall unexpectedly. Those are just my 2 cents.

Duke
07-23-2003, 10:42 PM
Has anyone done or seen full contact Kali or any of the Filipino stick fighting styles? With LaCross type gear and two kali sticks you and your opponent beat the hell out of each other. Exposed skin is fair game.

Duke
07-23-2003, 10:43 PM
Sometimes when I see you up this late Scuba, I wonder when is lights out or if you're studying enough.

SABER 2-3
07-23-2003, 10:43 PM
IBSTOLIDUDE might just be on my team...PT is at what time and where?

Edged weapon fighting is very personal and ugly.
If you have never seen a man gutted, you are not prepared.
If you have a firearm option your mantra should be "SIDE STEP, SIDE STEP BANG-BANG-BANG"
Point up or Point down, the movement of ones blade is customized to that individuals ablity to effectivly make leading edge to flesh contact w/ his opponent.
A skilled edged weapons fighter would rather slash his victims inner arms and thighs than stab at the heart.
Anyone unlucky enough to enter a edged-weapon fight must understand that they will be cut and that it will hurt and that its do or die.

ibstolidude
07-24-2003, 12:29 AM
Let me scream this some more - WEAPON RETENTION techniques, rapid transitions and situational awarness...the best way to win an knife fight is don't get in one. And as I posted previously in this thread if some ******* has the audacity to try and kill you, that fact alone should drive you the brink of insanity with rage....now pin point it like a laser and give him the Mike Tyson ear bite..and get a mouth full of blood -> :P har har har

there are few reasons for a soldier to be knife fighting when you have perfectly good pea shooters to reach out and say "hi" -

Excellant Mantra SABER - "very wise teacher you must have" - say Yoda.

Royal
07-24-2003, 04:16 AM
Stoli - agree with you 100% - defensive blocks are a useful tool in overall training, but a pistol and a lot of practice are a lot more use in my experience.

Personally I've never seen a knife (other than a bayonet) used in combat, bottles, bars, bats and clubs, even had a fridge dropped on me in Belfast, but never a knife.


4. I continue to attempt to stand at your oblique and like to place my terp in the line of fire (sucks to be him)

I take it you're talking about LEC's rather than one of the team!

SABER 2-3
07-24-2003, 04:22 AM
Fighting knives are very useful and have been used in every combat operation. But, remember what your Daddy always told you "Never bring a knife to a gun fight"

USAF G
07-24-2003, 11:30 AM
USMA_SCUBA,

Thanks, I should really use the term Phillipino fighting arts, instead of Kali, since I am talking about all of them. It looks like you guys are doing some pretty progressive training, very cool! :)

I'd like to make an addendum to the old saying, you should never bring a knife to a gun fight. You should never go for your gun DURING a knife fight. Meaning, break contact and get some distance before tying up one or both of your hands getting a gun out. Think about that one. ;)

hood
07-24-2003, 11:36 AM
Here's my martial arts bias coming out, but you could say the same thing about Tae Kwon Do. I've seen too many sparring matches in their schools where the 2 guys will push each other way just so they can kick each other.

USAF G
07-24-2003, 11:39 AM
Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the kick also considered a distance tool?

hood
07-24-2003, 11:56 AM
Yeah of course, but a knee or elbow strike at extremely close range, particularly if you're already there is much more effective than pushing your opponent away and risking a kick which has a high rate of missing or being rendered ineffective.

USAF G
07-24-2003, 01:09 PM
Absolutely, I wasn't trying to start an arguement :) . I just wanted to clarify that there are different ranges, and different tools are appropriate for each. The question I would ask our members, is the gun appropriate for any of the contact distances, or even imminant contact distance? I'll refer back to my unequal trade example.
I was threatened with a knife recently (the situation was resolved with no violence, but I learned, at this person's commitment hearing, that she intended to kill me in order to fulfill her delusion), and I thought a lot about how arms length is not a good distance to take one hand out of the fight in order to draw a gun. If he/she stabs you while you get your gun out to shoot, you have already lost that trade.:(

SABER 2-3
07-25-2003, 09:43 AM
USAF G,
I agree that trying to create distance between you and a blade can be fatal. Our unit Battle drill for react to bladed opfor w/ long-arm, unholstered side-arm or holstered side-arm are all as follows (not exact verbage) 1. Assume a strong "Entry Guarded" stance. 2. Close any distance that allows for the slash/hard thrust. 3. Fire for Effect/use long-gun strikes/use deadly force strikes or tech. 4. Side step out of opfors "aiming stakes". 5. Follow up to ensure full incapacitation. So I still think it is prudent to go for your firearm. Note to all readers!!! If you have not been trained in this protocal do not attempt. Seek out instruction on dealing w/ edged weapons and drill, drill, drill.

hood
07-25-2003, 10:04 AM
I've heard the term fire for effect many times, but what's the technical definition of what it means? Google didn't turn up much.

XASA
07-25-2003, 10:08 AM
After artillery has found the range with the help of forward observers, "fire for effect" is the command to rain shells on a target's coordinates until the command "cease fire" is given. Never heard it used for knife fighting, though. Someone correct me if I'm off the mark.

SABER 2-3
07-25-2003, 12:00 PM
The command of FIRE FOR EFFECT is used for any weapon that, well, fires. FIRE FOR RANGE is usually the first part of that. Once it is determined that you are on target the command of FIRE FOR EFFECT is issued. FFE as used in the above context was refering to the firepower said operator is drilling to employ against a edged weapon threat.

NT
07-25-2003, 01:06 PM
Faceless experts,

Ahh the internet. A place where any loser with access to a computer can pretend that he is a ninja. You guys are your own comic book heros that have come to life through the internet. What a great place to pretend your high speed, no one can tell your not. And when someone does tell one of the message board experts they are not, they trip and pretend they are!
All of the children on this board believe every word that the pretend experts say. How sad! Some of you have been on this board so long, and have had so many posts, the children think you are for real, as you slam people such as myself.
Who am I? Ok, I'll join in the combic book fun, I'm a MCNGBS. We are the most high speed, elite unit on the planet. Marine Corps Ninja Green Beret Seals. We wear karate kid bonzai rising sun bandanas, black capes, and we are all issued rocket skateboards!

USAF G
07-25-2003, 01:36 PM
You know, so far this thread has not degraded into a "my dad can beat up your dad...Oh yea, F*** you you loser you don't know what your talking about!" kind of thread. Everyone is acting like adults, right or wrong. Why don't you? :(

If you have something usefull to add or debate, by all means, otherwise, why ruin a perfectly interesting thread? :|

JiJoMacLE45
07-25-2003, 01:48 PM
NT, I think you're just an *******.

NT
07-25-2003, 03:50 PM
Knife fighters,

I am truly sorry guys. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I just grow tired. This does'nt apply to everyone, but some of you are like a person who has never driven a car before, but has watched every car movie and read every car book and now talks like you're an expert on driving cars.
You read Soldier of Fortune, surf the net, read every special ops book in print, and now you are a knife fighting expert. You've never been in sof, never been in a knife fight, or real fight, but you talk as if you are an authority on the subject. If anything you are an authority on sof/martial arts research. Like you know the first thing about knife fighting.
I am sorry for screwing up your holly thread. I am sorry for rainning on your pretend, no experience thread. I just thought a couple of you needed some contact with the real, non-comic book world before you morphed into a comic book action hero.

martinexsquaddie
07-25-2003, 04:00 PM
anyone saw a piece in the new in the Uk
About a columbian Special forces sgt major tackled a mugger who had a knife the mugger ended up with the knife in his chest and died the Sgt maj ened up on a murder charge but for a change got off :lol:

USAF G
07-25-2003, 04:06 PM
NT,
Whatever dude. :roll: Like I said before, even if someone is wrong, why ruin this thread? Take them to task through debate. Expose us for the idiots you have determined us to be. I have never claimed to be in SOF and I have done a pretty good job of avioding knife fights, however I do practice for it (for real physical training), and I do have some pretty good access to the world of JKD, Kali, Muey Thai, etc. (by learning from one of Guru Dan Inosanto's top instructors, and even taking seminars from Guru Dan when I can). Sorry I haven't run out and stabbed some people in order to get real world knife experience. And I am not an expert on knife fighting. I just like to share what I know here. If you don't like it here, why not go back to hanging out with your cool friends on whatever highspeed coolguy site you came from? :cantbeli:

XASA
07-25-2003, 04:08 PM
Knife fighters,

I am truly sorry guys. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I just grow tired. This does'nt apply to everyone, but some of you are like a person who has never driven a car before, but has watched every car movie and read every car book and now talks like you're an expert on driving cars.
You read Soldier of Fortune, surf the net, read every special ops book in print, and now you are a knife fighting expert. You've never been in sof, never been in a knife fight, or real fight, but you talk as if you are an authority on the subject. If anything you are an authority on sof/martial arts research. Like you know the first thing about knife fighting.
I am sorry for screwing up your holly thread. I am sorry for rainning on your pretend, no experience thread. I just thought a couple of you needed some contact with the real, non-comic book world before you morphed into a comic book action hero.

You must be a comic book action hero, NT, since you're able to penetrate the internet and pass judgment on those who post here. I'm not a fan of knife fighting, either, and made a point of saying so; however, I respect the opinions of those who have posted here including several who have listed their backgrounds and expertise on the subject. Of course it's possible they misrepresent their background, but sooner or later the truth surfaces. If you find this subject not to your liking, or if you feel, as USAF-G stated earlier, you have some expertise to discount any of the posts, then why not give your reasons for your opinion? Why not find a forum that welcomes your viewpoints instead of reading about issues you don't like here?

Apogee
07-26-2003, 03:03 AM
Comic book hero? Whatever bro. If thats the way you want to feel then more power to ya. I've got nothing to prove. I know I'm not an expert in most fields, so I just present what I know or have heard /read as just that. In knife fighting I happen to be an instructer. But Like I said, I've got nothing to prove. I know I'm not some SF BTDT but I've got some mil expiriance (even if it is very limited).

Duke,
WE don't have classes during the summer so thats why I'm not studying.

If I'm in comic book land then would someone please tell me where these comic book beers came from? Thanks.

Night,
SCUBA

Scrim
07-26-2003, 03:13 PM
NT in the open, fire for effect, 3 rounds, WP.

Duke
10-24-2004, 01:30 PM
I just wanted to say hello to all the old school crowd and that yes, i'm still alive.

mr.x
10-24-2004, 09:55 PM
This topic is an interesting one. As has been pointed out, there are many different knife fighting styles, and also many different apllications/ scenarios.
Just to add a new wrinkle to some of the scenarios thrown out what about facing a "knife fighter" who was "trained" in the penetentiary?

Most of the time one would never know a knife or shiv or what-have-you will be employed in the fight until it's rammed quite unceremoniously into your gut 20-30 times after being tackled from the front/side /rear.

As a few have pointed out, the best defense against a knife attack is to avoid it altogether if possible (in civilian world running IS an option although not to manly:D), militarily if your primary/secondary weapon can be employed great, do it!

Also, although I am not an "expert" I'll pass this tidbit along that folks can do what they will with. If a guy is running at you drop them with a groin shot!
Pelvic area shots seem to be the most reliable for stopping a bodys forward momentum. Even heart and head shots can allow the bad guy that few more steps to close and get an attacking strike in. If you get a knife to the eye it doesn't matter how well trained he was or was not.

mr.x
10-25-2004, 09:18 PM
I had heard from others that the "style" of fighting in Bourne was more akin to Sytema. Not disputing you at all as I am only passingly familiar with either.

Beowulf
10-25-2004, 09:26 PM
center mass!

mr.x
10-25-2004, 09:46 PM
^ is that in reference to the pelvic shot comment?

Beowulf
10-25-2004, 09:59 PM
yeah.

mr.x
10-25-2004, 10:12 PM
I wouldn't argue with the center mass shooting as in a stress situation it's where most of us were trained to shoot.

The pelvic shot though has been espoused by many in the Police training industry as reliable which is why I passed it on.

Ayoob is still pretty much recognized as an authority on the subject wouldn't you agree?

Beowulf
10-25-2004, 10:23 PM
I wouldn't argue with the center mass shooting as in a stress situation it's where most of us were trained to shoot.

The pelvic shot though has been espoused by many in the Police training industry as reliable which is why I passed it on.

Ayoob is still pretty much recognized as an authority on the subject wouldn't you agree?

well.... I'll let you decide.

here's an article from Martin Fackler M.D.

"Shots to the Pelvic Area ". Wound Ballistics Review. 4(1):13; 1999.


I welcome the chance to refute the belief that the pelvic area is a reasonable target during a gunfight. I can find no evidence or valid rationale for intentionally targeting the pelvic area in a gunfight. The reasons against, however, are many. They include:

-- From the belt line to the top of the head, the areas most likely to rapidly incapacitate the person hit are concentrated in or near the midline. In the pelvis, however, the blood vessels are located to each side, having diverged from the midline, as the aorta and inferior vena cava divide at about the level of the navel. Additionally, the target that, when struck, is the most likely to cause rapid and reliable incapacitation, the spinal cord located in the midline of the abdomen, thorax and neck), ends well above the navel and 18 not a target in the pelvis.
-- The pelvic branches of the aorta and inferior vena cava are more difficult to hit than their parent vessels -- they are smaller targets, and they diverge laterally from the midline (getting farther from it as they descend). Even if hit, each carry far less blood than the larger vessels from which they originated. Thus, even if one of these branches in the pelvis is hit, incapacitation from blood loss must necessarily be slower than from a major vessel hit higher up in the torso.
-- Other than soft tissue structures not essential to continuing the gunfight (1oops of bowel, bladder) the most likely thing to be struck by shots to the pelvis would be bone. The ilium is a large flat bone that forms most of the back wall of the pelvis. The problem is that handgun bullets that hit it would not break the bone but only make a small hole in passing through it: this would do nothing to destroy bony support of the pelvic girdle. The pelvic girdle is essentially a circle: to disrupt its structure significantly would require breaking it in two places. Only a shot that disrupted the neck or upper portion of the shaft of the femur would be likely to disrupt bony support enough to cause the person hit to fall. This is a small and highly unlikely target: the aim point to hit it would be a mystery to those without medical training and to most of those with medical training.

Unfortunately, the pelvis shot fallacy is common. This fallacy, along with other misinformation, is promoted constantly by at least one gun writer who is widely published in the popular gun press. Because of this, I regularly debunk this fallacy by including some of the above rationale in my presentations to law enforcement firearm instructor groups.




I think that if someone is wearing BA, ,and a T-bar shot is unreasonable, then I would go pelvis third....

ALTW!
-B

Beowulf
10-25-2004, 10:33 PM
safety?

mocking_loudly_died
10-25-2004, 10:35 PM
Knives are so 80's, real men use drills as their close quater weapon.
Pfft - n00bs.

mr.x
10-25-2004, 10:50 PM
I'll clarify what I understand the theory to be..

Pelvic bones will break when hit with hydroshock type rounds.
The idea is not a one shot kill...it is to immediately drop the bad guy. No support of the legs = no walkee/runnee.

That said, I say again I would most likely resort to training i.e. "center mass and slide to the side" as I don't practice this pelvis theory.

I also wouldn't disagree with your target priorities as they are based in reality, not theory.

mr.x
10-25-2004, 10:55 PM
I don't see where he addresses the ammunition type.
if he is referring to straight ball ammo i definitely see his arguement.
With a hydro-type ammo ...
Wonder if there is any actual data out there?

Laconian
10-26-2004, 11:17 AM
Knife defense, like all close combat, is ugly. How the attacker holds the knife (or any edged weapon) will not readily telegraph his ability. Taking a screwdriver thrust to the bladder will kill you just as effectively as a tanto slash across your carotid artery. The flowery martial arts stuff will not prove practical in a real fight. I've seen very highly trained guys go training knife on training knife and all the fine & complex moves get thrown out for simple gross motor skills. Everything else is too slow. Especially since research shows the closing distance of moving 30 feet in .87 seconds. (Hontz/Rheingantz "Firearms movement time study," 1997)

As a spontaneous knife defense instructor trainer, our philosophy is:
a- Avoid the attack (disengage, evade, create distance moving offline to go to a weapon system or getting the hell out of dodge)
b - Control the weapon (if you can't disengage or safely create distance)
c - stun the attacker (knees, elbows, brachial stuns, bites, etc)
d - ground the offender
e - disarm the offender

I've faced knife attacks on the street. I've always had the ability to trade space & time and go to a gun - luckily that stopped all of the fights.

As far as targeting goes center of mass is the way to go especially since cops miss 4 out of 5 shots in a gun fight (statistically) even at fights of 21 feet or closer (the average range of a cop gunfight). If center of mass is the chest, so be it, but center of mass can also be his head or pelvic area or ankle, depending on what you can get a shot on...
Just my .02 cents

Trigger
10-26-2004, 12:10 PM
Hi Duke!
Welcome back.

Good topic to resurrect. woot

mr.x
10-26-2004, 04:14 PM
Laconian, are you an LEO?
Your points seem sound and well made.
Especially the idea of shoot center mass of where you find it, that makes good sense to me.
I have been involved in one knife fight. I was not armed at all besides my keys.
No super dooper ninja skills were used and I got a little cut (could have used a stitch or two but I blew it off), I threw my keys at his face, kicked him in the nads and RAN to a nearby bar.

Laconian
10-26-2004, 04:25 PM
@ mr x.
Yes, I am a LEO (fed type). BTW armed w/ keys is still armed if you put them into action like you did. Adopting a predator mindset is the key to almost any confrontation... I wish all my encounters ended w/me running into a bar...

mr.x
10-26-2004, 04:37 PM
Well, that was 21 years ago and my neighbors dad who was CPD gave me a beer after he went looking for the guy.
Didn't get the bum but he did find my keys.
That was about when I really adopted the "whatever is available" philosophy of self defense and also began to develope a keen "situational awareness " mindset.
It is also the last time anyone tried to mug me but now I have probably jinxed my good luck by mentioning it.

Rantanplan
10-26-2004, 05:14 PM
This thread is a classic. woot

mr.x
10-26-2004, 05:35 PM
pretty goofy eh?! :D

2Sheds_Jackson
10-26-2004, 07:21 PM
Situational awareness is key to surviving a confrontation like this. If you can put some distance between yourself and the attacker (mugger etc.) you can gain some time - hopefully get yourself into a better weapon, etc.

I faced a similar situation on the street a few years back. Some badass came at me with a McDougal 105 Kwan style blade. I backed off pretty quick, trying to reach back into my ride for my pistol. I use a Torson Punjar holster in my rig, but I had trouble reaching it. He came at me too fast, and I had to use what was at hand.

I had been at the beach, and didn't have much to work with...so I popped a flip-flop off one foot, and employed a Korean kwu-ngjon move. Using the floppy "heel" end, I swung quickly, stunning the attacker with a blazing backhanded move. It hit quite sharply on his face, issuing a loud smacking sound, and left a distinctive red crescent shaped raspberry with a nicely formed Wal-Mart logo clearly visible.

He attempted to recover from the savage thwacking, but by then I had hooked his stabbing hand in the tough upper straps of the flip-flop, and twisted it hard around. As the bones in his forearm broke, he dropped the knife. As he continued to struggle, I took off my trunks fashioned a crude slingshot using the highly elastic inner "ball hugging" material, and shot my other flip flop at him. Once he was on the ground, I ran him over with my car.

It's all about innovation, people. And situational awareness. And the willingness to go *****.

mr.x
10-26-2004, 07:30 PM
rofl ^^
stop...it...that...frickin'...hurts....!
***** ninjaman....might be good for a user name...hmmm

mr.x
10-26-2004, 07:33 PM
can you write up a tutorial on the "ball sack slingshot" method ?

please

Apogee
10-26-2004, 09:03 PM
Glad to see that you're alive and well duke

USAF G
02-26-2005, 08:41 PM
Hey, glad to hear you're all right, Duke.

Oh, on a side note, Matt Damon studied at the Inosanto Academy in LA for his Bourne roll, so he is definately using a Phillipino Arts/ JKD combo.
Great fight scenes.

G

Evil_Avatar
02-26-2005, 11:42 PM
Kali was used in knife-fighting scene in Bourne Supremacy. I watched the interview with fights choreographer and he was like "... I wanted to use compact, realistic art. So I used Philippino martial art called Kali..."