It begun In Poland - 20th anniversary of communism collapse in Europe [Archive]

Switek

06-04-2009, 04:57 AM

Poland Celebrates 20th Anniversary of First Free Elections
Warsaw, PolandJune 4, 2009
Today Poland is celebrating the 20 year anniversary of its first post-war democratic elections, a historic event which marked the beginning of the process that led to the end of communism.

Representatives of 25 national parliaments throughout Europe have accepted the invitation to attend the celebrations held in three Polish cities: Warsaw, Cracow and Gdańsk.

Guests of honor include President of the European Parliament Hans-Gert Poettering, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, Czech President Vaclav Havel and heads of Visegrad group states .

The Warsaw Voice (http://www.warsawvoice.pl)

Twenty years ago I was young activist of Solidarity Civil Committee in one provincial city in West North Poland. I as first year student of Adam Mickiewicz University in Poznań spended few month working hard helping as much as I could to prepare first free (or rather semi free) elections in Poland after 1939... I remember exactly how communist secrtert police were spying us and our actions.

I remember that I really couldn't sleep the next night waiting for the results which were published few days later.

Now I feel a kind of satisfaction that I can see my country in much better shape than twenty years ago, when we saw our future in black colors.

Damn! Congratulations Poland! Well done :)

kosse

06-04-2009, 05:01 AM

Congrats! The true Victory Day for Poland woot

Awatron

06-04-2009, 05:23 AM

I remember exactly how communist secrtert police were spying us and our actions.

The blokes werent that secret after all then, eh?

Nordmannen

06-04-2009, 08:19 AM

Congrats Poland. It's a milestone in world history, a day where you threw away the shackles of communism and set your eyes to the West, the home of democracy and freedom.

Connaught Ranger

06-04-2009, 08:30 AM

And the world turns . . . . . . .

Adax

06-04-2009, 08:56 AM

And a special video about this event, shown in polish parliament yesterday. It's great btw and I recomend to watch:

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uimzRjdZ1X4
Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od2mmqfblro&feature=channel

Switek

06-04-2009, 09:23 AM

The blokes werent that secret after all then, eh?

No they just wanted to terrifying us... but also they gathered evidences for further possible accusation.

Congrats Poland. It's a milestone in world history, a day where you threw away the shackles of communism and set your eyes to the West, the home of democracy and freedom.

And the world turns . . . . . . .

I do remember Polish communist poverty, coupon system and taste of fresh oranges, bananas once a year... When I started my studies at 1988 there seemed to be only two alternatives about our personal future: combat against commies (civil war was qite possible for us) or emigration.

After elections of June 4th 1989, we were afraid of Russian intervention (really) and our dream was to be like Finland... We had no clue that communist system in Europe was so weak...

And a special video about this event, shown in polish parliament yesterday. It's great btw and I recomend to watch:

Thank you Adax, you made my eyes wet... But I'm so proud and happy that my kids can live in completely another world (and better including all disadvantages) than I grow up.

Russian_dude

06-04-2009, 09:26 AM

To be like Finland, first must let go of the mirror version of communism - catholicism.

Switek

06-04-2009, 09:33 AM

To be like Finland, first must let go of the mirror version of communism - catholicism.

I meant Finnish-Soviet Union relation after WW2 which made Finland depended on Soviet Union in some aspects of international activities, but also preserved internal freedoms in laws, economy and so on.

saturnin

06-04-2009, 10:01 AM

Congrats! and RIP to all victims of communist regime

back in that times most people didn´t believe it will come so quickly and with no bloody masacre. With many soviet military bases in Czechoslovakia people were worry about new 1968. Now it seems to be so easy just to go on street and protest or go for election. Members of my family remember going for first free election with tears of happynes. One member of my family have in good memory election back in 70´s. He boycott and didn´t go, but local principal wonted no doubt about 100% participation so in the evening he came with police car for him to vote. So try to refuse when you have two kids at university. Those small town local communists were so afraid of show of opposition in their region that they often drive during election around local pub so no one could get drunked and didn´t go "vote".

peter.pl

06-04-2009, 11:32 AM

I heard that in the West a lot people is thinking that Germany was first free and Poland was other, it just use situation, is it true ?

little icebear

06-04-2009, 12:07 PM

I heard that in the West a lot people is thinking that Germany was first free and Poland was other, it just use situation, is it true ?

If "in the West" means USA - maybe. But certainly not in Western Europe, especially in Western Germany, coverage of political events in Poland since the start of Solidarność was quiet extensive.

peter.pl

06-04-2009, 01:09 PM

If I say West I mean everything from Poland to West coast of USA :) Thanks for reply.

Flamming_Python

06-04-2009, 03:17 PM

Since when the hell did the collapse of Communism in Europe begin in Poland?

Ulytau

06-04-2009, 03:19 PM

I watch about that at a documentary movie

Ironic issue was the if i remember true Workers started this

Wonsild

06-04-2009, 03:35 PM

People, can't you see further then your nose?
The collapse has begun in the USSR. Not 20, but at least 25 years ago.

peter.pl

06-04-2009, 03:40 PM

Collapse of communism was started in 1917 just before it was created... And we are not saying that we destroyed SU but we were first country wich had balls and we said simple "**** of" to communists.

Wonsild

06-04-2009, 03:45 PM

we were first country wich had balls and we said simple "**** of" to communists.
Ever heard of countries like Latvia and Lithuania?

peter.pl

06-04-2009, 03:49 PM

And when they were free ? Of course after collapse of SU, they were in worst situation then we. But first wind of freedom was from Poland..

Wonsild

06-04-2009, 03:57 PM

And when they were free ? Of course after collapse of SU, they were in worst situation then we. But first wind of freedom was from Poland..
First of all, stop using word communism when you talk about that crippled socialistic failure. Using word communism for everything soviet is like calling tank every armored vehicle.
And second, Latvia and Lithuania were part of SU and fought their way through in much harder conditions then Poland did. So, since you were not part of SU and the only thing that technically kept Poland within the SU sphere was Warsaw Pact, I would not call the fact that you managed to shift the power within your own country as being the first country to do so. 1989 - Soviet Union existed only on paper. And Warsaw Pact existed only on toilet paper by that time.

peter.pl

06-04-2009, 04:01 PM

Wonsild

06-04-2009, 04:02 PM

I had plan to say that same :)
So only sure thing is that it begun in Poland in 1989 cause we were first in 1989 :)

Nope, it begun with Gorby calling perestroika

peter.pl

06-04-2009, 04:14 PM

Nope, it begun with Gorby calling perestroika

We are not talking about interior events in SU but about other countries.

SkyUS

06-04-2009, 04:16 PM

First of all, stop using word communism when you talk about that crippled socialistic failure. Using word communism for everything soviet is like calling tank every armored vehicle.
And second, Latvia and Lithuania were part of SU and fought their way through in much harder conditions then Poland did. So, since you were not part of SU and the only thing that technically kept Poland within the SU sphere was Warsaw Pact, I would not call the fact that you managed to shift the power within your own country as being the first country to do so. 1989 - Soviet Union existed only on paper. And Warsaw Pact existed only on toilet paper by that time.

Yeah go ahead and tell that to a person living at that time that Warsaw pact was noting but paper tiger, and there was no threat coming in and crushing any dissent.

And it doesn't matter that we shifted the power in our country. It began the crumbling of the Eastern Bloc. It showed that the system in place isn't strong and no military intervention will happen upon the dissent. Then it was a domino effect. After Poland, other countries of Eastern Block were crumbling away at the communist system of eastern Block. Say what you want, it really dosen't matter really I am just happy that the shackles of communism had been shed in eastern Europe and in the republics of Soviet Union.

Wonsild

06-04-2009, 04:24 PM

We are not talking about interior events in SU but about other countries.

It is all related. If SU was strong from inside, then today would be the 20 years since Warsaw 89 (in a similar meaning like Budapest 56 and Prague 68).

Wonsild

06-04-2009, 04:26 PM

After Poland, other countries of Eastern Block were crumbling away at the communist system of eastern Block. Say what you want, it really dosen't matter really I am just happy that the shackles of communism had been shed in eastern Europe and in the republics of Soviet Union.
Once again you call that regime communism and I will call you the most uneducated dumbarse in this thread.

Umbro2914

06-04-2009, 04:58 PM

Let us pay hommage and rememeber all those who fought for our freedom, and freedom for all those suffering under the Soviet Communist System.

Today is a day to pay respect and remember, not quarral amongst one another.

We should all be glad and thankful that Communism did end, regardless if it was in 1989, or 1991.

-- On a side note.... it is utterly false to say that the only thing keeping Poland in Soviet sphere was a piece of paper... what about the 200,000+ Soviet troops stationed in Poland, the Communist government, and the treat of Soviet invasion...

Vandervahn

06-04-2009, 05:31 PM

I heard that in the West a lot people is thinking that Germany was first free and Poland was other, it just use situation, is it true ?

No, but the colapse of the GDR is seen as the actual turning point of the East-West conflict in Europe. It had a lot of symbolism back then, and the german reunification has considerably shifted the power structure of Europe and the world, thats why it is remembered better.

SkyUS

06-04-2009, 06:25 PM

Once again you call that regime communism and I will call you the most uneducated dumbarse in this thread.

Awesome ad homien attack.

Communist - crippled socialistic failure

Same **** different toilet.

Edit:

Actually I take it back. Communism wasn't everywhere the same And it would be very foolish of me to use it in this manner. Just because a country was communist it didn't mean all of the negative prerogatives associated with it. However my usage of the term in the previous post meant to designate and be limited only to the geopolitical entity of the "Eastern Bloc". Surly Communism wasn't the same throughout those countries, some countries had watered down versions of it( in comparison to other countries of the bloc). Some had it better and some had it worse. Alas it still was not wanted by the nations of those countries.

saturnin

06-04-2009, 06:43 PM

How it come that every time some polish thread starts there is almost confidence that some dumbas show his disrespect. And yes, same go for "R" thread.

Hello, this thread starts about free election in Poland. First after long time of COMMUNIST regime. We should celebrate not bagrain when it starts first or how much "communist" every single country behind Iron Curtain was.

saturnin

06-04-2009, 06:45 PM

I see SkyUs see my mind :). He edited his
last post before he was abe to see mine.

Strongie

06-04-2009, 06:54 PM

They themselfs called it communist as did the party elite in all those other miserable experiments that hopefully has put the idea of communism to death forever. It was a sick social experiment that tried to mold man into a lemming and fortunately it didn't work. Good work Poland!

The sad part is the countries where the collapse of the communist regimes led to bloodshed and ethnic conflicts and where these regimes played a significant role in creating them..

SkyUS

06-04-2009, 07:13 PM

Collapse of communism was started in 1917 just before it was created...

I have to disagree with this.

Communism is a general term. Mostly associated with Soviet Union etc.

India's state of Kerala was governed by communists (not aligned to Soviet Union or its branch of ideology) in the 70s. They certainly did not turn totalitarian nor repressive onto the people. Kerala was very much progressive to social justice and upbringing of poverty.

SkyUS

06-04-2009, 07:17 PM

I see SkyUs see my mind :). He edited his
last post before he was abe to see mine.
:)

Yeah sorry, I realized that I was painting with a wide brush, which was very foolish of me.

Great minds think alike.:)

Pezy

06-04-2009, 07:36 PM

In the course of many years the Polish people fought a lot and suffered even more. Their struggle against overwhelming odds for Independence and prosperity is an example for all Europe.

I wish Poles many happy anniversaries, they deserve it.
.

gazell

06-04-2009, 07:51 PM

The blokes werent that secret after all then, eh?

roflThey were secret enough though, I've never seen any, also think it a dew-ridden naivity it ended for any satelite countries initiative, however, we do celebrate. The German foreign minister just gave a talk in Hungary the other day, all joyfull we are.

Gawel1410

06-04-2009, 10:15 PM

Long live Solidarnosc and our great victory !

I would like to see the memorials/educational things that are located in Berlin, I heard that the exposition includes the history of the social movements against their communist governments, should be very interesting.

Hopefully some people would post pics concerning celebrations.

Holycrusader

06-05-2009, 02:58 AM

To be like Finland, first must let go of the mirror version of communism - catholicism.

Thanks for laugh... Actually you are right to some degree :)

Shuimo

06-05-2009, 03:02 AM

don't know to what extent the Tiananmen Event contributed to the collapse of communism in Europe!

Holycrusader

06-05-2009, 03:03 AM

Updates

Our President say that celebrations was bad and its all Prime Minister fault... and Lech Walesa offended him multiple time thats why he do not say thank you...

This is finest example of so called Polish Hell

Holycrusader

06-05-2009, 03:12 AM

don't know to what extent the Tiananmen Event contributed to the collapse of communism in Europe!

In no extent... In time of Tiananmen Event everything that count already happen.
Actually collapsing of comunism begun in some western banks that start to give credits to comunist countries. Nixon and Johnson administration start the process that destroy comunism economy...
Communist economy do not survived contact with capitalist greedy bankers ;)

Connaught Ranger

06-05-2009, 03:47 AM

don't know to what extent the Tiananmen Event contributed to the collapse of communism in Europe!

Seeing as Communism is alive and well in Red China then the answer is a big fat ZERO!

Holycrusader

06-05-2009, 03:48 AM

Seeing as Communism is alive and well in Red China then the answer is a big fat ZERO!

Good answer :)

Telmar

06-05-2009, 05:26 AM

Happy birthday free Poland from a guest of a nation who has to wait 5 months more.

The protests in Gdansk seem to have made the city the birthplace of many politicians in today's Poland.

When I worked there last year, my translator told me that the Kakzynski brothers were from Gdansk (or Gdynia which makes little difference), and so is Tusk. It seems that there is some aura (and some connections) of being from Gdansk, even today.

How about that for a provincial town "shutting up" its capital? :)

Holycrusader

06-05-2009, 05:33 AM

Shuimo

06-05-2009, 05:36 AM

Seeing as Communism is alive and well in Red China then the answer is a big fat ZERO!

China today is just communism in name only!rofl

Holycrusader

06-05-2009, 05:38 AM

China today is just communism in name only!rofl

Here is a great topic for you
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=158445

Here you can wrote how succesfoul Tienanmen protest was. Or you can go in that place and start to celebrate anniversary...

Shuimo

06-05-2009, 05:40 AM

Here is a great topic for you
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=158445

Here you can wrote how succesfoul Tienanmen protest was.

Communism has nothing to do with Tainanmen!

Holycrusader

06-05-2009, 05:42 AM

Communism has nothing to do with Tainanmen!

As you live in Bejing go the Tainanmen and shout that loud...

Shuimo

06-05-2009, 05:43 AM

As you live in Bejing go the Tainanmen and shout that loud...

Then you could become a freedom fighter?

Holycrusader

06-05-2009, 05:59 AM

Then you could become a freedom fighter?

Yes, then you be a freedom fighter... Just do this before some foreign journalist...

Shuimo

06-05-2009, 06:02 AM

Yes, then you be a freedom fighter... Just do this before some foreign journalist...

That is yr definition of freedom fighter!
Dalailama is a freedom fighter! But I don't think so!

Mackie

06-05-2009, 06:06 AM

Communism vs Capitalism
Dictatorship vs Democracy

Shuimo is right.
China is capitalism and communism controlled by a dictatorship.

kosse

06-05-2009, 06:08 AM

Yes, then you be a freedom fighter... Just do this before some foreign journalist...
Foreign journalists are most likely blocked from filming there. Finnish national broadcast company tried to film a short commentary about the Tiananmen massacre and they were blocked immediately with umbrellas when they started filming. It was aired yesterday I think in national news.

Holycrusader

06-05-2009, 06:08 AM

That is yr definition of freedom fighter!
Dalailama is a freedom fighter! But I don't think so!

I really do not understand you... Sorry. And you are offtopic here

Shuimo

06-05-2009, 06:21 AM

Communism vs Capitalism
Dictatorship vs Democracy

Shuimo is right.
China is capitalism and communism controlled by a dictatorship.

Even the CPC doesn't believe in Cummunism any more judging by what it is doing!

Connaught Ranger

06-05-2009, 06:23 AM

China today is just communism in name only!rofl
Nice of you to trot that line out, the party pay you to post itp-)

Wonsild

06-05-2009, 06:40 AM

They themselfs called it communist as did the party elite in all those other miserable experiments that hopefully has put the idea of communism to death forever. It was a sick social experiment that tried to mold man into a lemming and fortunately it didn't work.

They never called their system as communistic. It was clear to everybody and same wording used by Politbureau: "we live in the developed socialism which is our road to the communism, which we hope to build in the next 50 years or so.."

So, call it socialism or sovietism, but not communism

Switek

06-05-2009, 07:41 AM

Few pics from one event which happened yesterday:

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/8189/z6689805x.jpg

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/6373/z6689801x.jpg

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/1435/z6689802x.jpg

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/3585/z6689806x.jpg

shadowsrider

06-05-2009, 08:03 AM

Lets not forget the Gorbi, he has great contribution into it. One his word and all wind of freedom could be frozen.
For instance Honneker was shouting that any revolt will be solved with socialistic methods and Gorbi responded that authority must talk to all classes and parts of the society. If it was someone else there would be blood.

http://www.simmons.de/pix/BushParade/honi-gorbi-kuss.jpeg

daily666

06-05-2009, 10:42 AM

As a Gdansk resident (born and raised here) I congratulate us all :)

My pic of the shipyards from Grodzisko Hill.
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r96/daily_bucket/IMG_2186.jpg
Gdansk motto: Nec timere, Nec Timide (Neither rashness nor timidity).

sektor

06-05-2009, 12:54 PM

Congrats Poland. It's a milestone in world history, a day where you threw away the shackles of communism and set your eyes to the West, the home of democracy and freedom.

lololoolololol

saturnin

06-05-2009, 06:29 PM

lololoolololol

please, go troll elsewhere

Umbro2914

06-05-2009, 08:14 PM

Few pics from one event which happened yesterday:

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/8189/z6689805x.jpg

Switek, do you have a link from which you got these pics??

Or do you know if there are any more?
Very interesting portrayal, would like to see more.

Switek

06-06-2009, 01:51 AM

Switek, do you have a link from which you got these pics??

Or do you know if there are any more?
Very interesting portrayal, would like to see more.

here you are:

Gazeta Wyborcza (http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomosci/51,80269,6689791.html?i=0)

Mr.K

06-06-2009, 02:02 AM

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/1435/z6689802x.jpg
Fail, the Belorussian domino should be standing still :)

Either way have fun with celebrating, avoid red wine.

Umbro2914

06-06-2009, 10:18 PM

here you are:

Gazeta Wyborcza (http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomosci/51,80269,6689791.html?i=0)

thank you very much!

LineDoggie

06-06-2009, 10:50 PM

If "in the West" means USA - maybe. But certainly not in Western Europe, especially in Western Germany, coverage of political events in Poland since the start of Solidarność was quiet extensive. Really? and you know this how exactly?

LineDoggie

06-06-2009, 10:56 PM

~~~~

06-07-2009, 02:15 PM

People, can't you see further then your nose?
The collapse has begun in the USSR. Not 20, but at least 25 years ago.

hahaha, you're right. the collapse of communism started in USSR. and it was in 1917 already.
lol

Russian_dude

06-08-2009, 05:42 AM

~~~~

06-08-2009, 07:26 AM

I always find it funny when Poles claim they collapsed communism or Catholics claim it was that Pope dude in a funny hat. Communism collapsed in the early 70's. If it still existed in the mid 80's, all those Polish outbursts would have been crushed.

but anyway, Poland is the place where have taken place the first prodemocratic mass events in the eastern bloc. and it was also the first country to eventually switch the system. no one can deny it.

Mr.K

06-08-2009, 12:46 PM

but anyway, Poland is the place where have taken place the first prodemocratic mass events in the eastern bloc. and it was also the first country to eventually switch the system. no one can deny it.

I would say, Hungary in 1956, and then Czechoslovakia in 1968 would be the 1st, both were repressed.
Poland was the place that actually allowed those prodemocratic events to happen, that, and crappy living conditions Jaruzelski created. Let's not forget a very mellow Gorby and confused USSR that didn't send tanks.
Those circumstances and some other circumstances made 1989 a lucky year for anti-communists.

Switek

06-08-2009, 12:55 PM

I would say, Hungary in 1956, and then Czechoslovakia in 1968 would be the 1st, both were repressed.
Poland was the place that actually allowed those prodemocratic events to happen, that, and crappy living conditions Jaruzelski created. Let's not forget a very mellow Gorby and confused USSR that didn't send tanks.
Those circumstances and some other circumstances made 1989 a lucky year for anti-communists.

You must not know Berlin uprising in July 1953 and Poznań (PL) revolt in July 1956...

Anyway, even communist system was so rusty it were Poles who broke the teethes of the system effectively... because we dared...

Mr.K

06-08-2009, 01:01 PM

You must not know Berlin uprising in July 1953 and Poznań (PL) revolt in July 1956...

Anyway, even communist system was so rusty it were Poles who broke the teethes of the system effectively... because we dared...

No I must not know, thanks for contributing to my post and doing the research for me.
In 1989 there was not much left to break.

TheArmenian

06-08-2009, 01:39 PM

Switek

06-08-2009, 01:53 PM

FAST FORWARD >>>>>>> to the present.

It is the Polish shipyards that are nowadays collapsing one after the other....just like the above dominoes.

Sad irony.

In fact there are few shipyards in Poland, previously effectively privatized which are quite very well...

Tho problem concerns two biggest ones in Szczecin and Gdańsk, where, ironically The Solidarity Union was the strongest... I'd say that too much socialism killed those shipyards...

SkyUS

06-08-2009, 01:55 PM

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/8189/z6689805x.jpg

FAST FORWARD >>>>>>> to the present.

It is the Polish shipyards that are nowadays collapsing one after the other....just like the above dominoes.

Sad irony.

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/270944,polish-shipyards-halt-production.html

http://www.marinetalk.com/articles-marine-companies/art/Polish-Shipyards-are-Struggling-to-Survive-xxx000121002OT.html

Capitalism can be a bitch too. Well there was no point in artificially keeping the jobs with the state money. Keeping the company alive with government money wasn't successful. The ship yards were sold to United International trust. The new owner will reopen the yards.

Edit:

as "koutch" said, this isn't capitalism vs communism thread. That's not my point of this post.

Mr.K

06-08-2009, 02:19 PM

hey lets not make it a capitalism vs socialism thread.

SkyUS

06-08-2009, 02:30 PM

I always find it funny when Poles claim they collapsed communism or Catholics claim it was that Pope dude in a funny hat. Communism collapsed in the early 70's. If it still existed in the mid 80's, all those Polish outbursts would have been crushed.

I must say that, that catholicism or Catholic Church in Poland proved to be very important. People used the the preexisting social network( the Catholic Church) to mobilize more people to vote, get involved in the campaigns and generally familiarize population with the candidates that were against the system in Poland. It allowed for a the population to live and breath with the elections and the process of abolishing the communists. Church in Poland had been historically ani-communist. When John Paul II became a pope it gave people a hope . The Pope let the Polish voice be heard on the international scene. He provided a voice of support and urging for free elections in Poland. He was keeping the pressure on the Polish communist government by mobilizing people against the system. Was he a threat to the establishment? I would say so. After all the hitman hired to assassinate him was on Soviet Union's payroll. They deemed him as a threat.

Did Polish people and the Pope and catholics abolish communism? NO. But they did abolish the system in Poland. After that event, it proved to the rest of the countries of Eastern Bloc that Soviets wouldn't intervene. It broke the fear of the Soviet reprisal in case of any upheavals. Then it all fell like dominoes.

I also tend to think that the Tienanmen protests and the famous Tankman hero of that event was influential to the events in Eastern Europe. But what real influence it had In Poland I can't say because I don't know. I was born in August of '89. Maybe other Poles who were much older than me at that time can recall and shed some light on this question of mine.

My only $0.02