Putin vs. the oligarchs

[Derbedeu]

Putin laying down the law:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8086549.stm


rofl

[Holmes85]

No one can escape his long arm of the law.

But seriously, I didn't know the economic conditions were that bad.

[RICHICOQUI]

Isn't putin one of those oligarchs?

[NUCKINFUTS]

"And don't forget to return my pen"

[BloodyTalon]

"And don't forget to return my pen"
Was I the only one waiting for Putin to finish that with ",bitch"?

[jetsetter]

Putin is just a more powerful oligarch.

[GeneralDisarray]

Straight out of Chavez's book...

[Mr.K]

Straight out of Chavez's book...

How would you like to be the one of these workers?

[MZKT]

Straight out of Chavez's book...

Yep. Workers being not paid is good, is capitalism, is democracy, is freedom

Forcing the oligarch to pay the workers or the taxes is bad, is socialism, is evil totalitarian Chavez/Ahmadinedshad/Putin behavior, is suppression of oligarch's right to starve his workers.

While Putin is leading Russia in the wrong direction, he at least sometimes do things right, like in this case or in case of Chodorkowski. Just funny that especially such cases are critisized most in the west.

[GeneralDisarray]

How would you like to be the one of these workers?

I would not like it.


Yep. Workers being not paid is good, is capitalism, is democracy, is freedom

Forcing the oligarch to pay the workers or the taxes is bad, is socialism, is evil totalitarian Chavez/Ahmadinedshad/Putin behavior, is suppression of oligarch's right to starve his workers.

If laws were broken (eg not paying taxes), then the people responsible should be arrested and tried as other oligarchs have been. What was the point of the public display?

[Derbedeu]

I would not like it.



If laws were broken (eg not paying taxes), then the people responsible should be arrested and tried as other oligarchs have been. What was the point of the public display?

I'm guessing:

1. Rally public support behind the government (i.e. "See!! Putin and the government care about the little people!")

2. As a warning to other oligarchs not to be callous when it comes to laying off workers simply to just increase their bottom line by a wider margin than usual.

Was he correct in doing so (i.e. will business be wary of investing in Russia; was it necessary to embarrass them)? I dunno. Our Russian friends here can probably give us a better answer. Either way, you have to admit it was pretty funny! :p

[AlexMartin2]

Yes, Putin gave us very funny performance.

Some background: In Soviet times this Pikalevo town had one big production. In Eltsyn times it was divided into 3 parts and sold to different owners. One of the 3 factories are intended to provide another with materials.
One of the main problems there that owners couldn't negotiate within themselves work in all 3 factories. In crisis this problem caused layoffs and non-payment, and workers got angry.
It is very good that someone resolved this stupid situation and forced these owners to cooperate.

[khukuri]

Putin is just a more powerful oligarch.


Not really he is a authoritarian politician... never was an oligarch.

[intelligenzija]

What was the point of the public display?

they were protesting for more than a week, of course that got the attention of the media. Probably Putin would not have gone there if there was not such a protest and media attention? We don't know.
While I disagree economically - why running not profitable factories? (Either make them profitable or close them, we're not the soviet union anymore) I fully agree from the social point of view, people in Russia must stop seeing their country as a self service buffet. Only few people take responsibility for their actions..leaving the workers without salaries, what a shame

[JCR]

Somehow I am a bit in envy.
I can't imagine Merkel to tell Karstadt/Arcandor to simply pay up and shut up...

[zg18]

In communist times a lot of towns were built or developed around one big factory , when communism collapsed and market economy introduced they were left not efficient and competitive and lost market , without diversified economy such towns simply collapsed.

[zg18]

Not really he is a authoritarian politician... never was an oligarch.

Putin while he was on positions in Saint Petersburg never took bribe from a "family" or oligarchs , the fact admitted by Berezovsky himself.

[Mousepad]

In communist times a lot of towns were built or developed around one big factory , when communism collapsed and market economy introduced they were left not efficient and competitive and lost market , without diversified economy such towns simply collapsed.


It's not communism, imagine BMW just collapses, and one will have full poker of trouble on his hands. Was watching CNN lately, and Detroit don't look dandy lately, no commies there. As for Picalevo case - well methink it's a show for people, salary was paid by government, Deripaska is beyond broke with 1.5 bln $ debt, and kept afloat by govt, only because he's from few in Russia who nows something about how to run big business, old school is old, new guys still cooking, hang Deripas to dry and you will find yourself with sh/tloads of Picalevos.

[JCR]

I'd be careful "diversifying" (in other words, closing) anything right now.
If the economy recovers, someone's got to do the metal bashing.
And if the economy doesn't nobody will need call centers and other services (the usual replacements) anyway.

So retain an unprofitable industry during a drought might not be the british way, but it surely is the right way
:)

And if Deripaska can pay for it out of his own pocket, so much the better. He got extremely rich by basically just owning the factories, not that he built them or invested much in them anyway.

[Red_Rage]

Putin while he was on positions in Saint Petersburg never took bribe from a "family" or oligarchs , the fact admitted by Berezovsky himself.



Riiiight, I believe it as much as Putin's declared income (2 bedroom apartment, 2 domestic cars, and a small dacha to his name almoast made me shed a tear). Putin was making Sobchak rich throuigh various shady schemes during his time in St. Peterstburg (and every Leningradets knows it). He was a "shadow cardinal" in a way.

Putin lays it down to Deripaska ("Give me back my pen" around 1:20) - Pokazuha at it's best, but still makes you feel warm and fuzzy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ievtOub0OEw&feature=related

[jetsetter]

Riiiight, I believe it as much as Putin's declared income (2 bedroom apartment, 2 domestic cars, and a small dacha to his name almoast made me shed a tear).Putin actually said that? Does he expect anyone to believe that?

[Red_Rage]

Putin actually said that? Does he expect anyone to believe that?


Medvedev's new anti-corruption policies demand for all civil servants to declare their incomes.

http://www.mail-archive.com/cikeas@yahoogroups.com/msg16972.html

[AlexMartin2]

Well, there are people who don't care about money at all. But they may care about power. I think Putin is such person.

Many liberal and western journalists wrote about Putin's billions, but there no any evidence for today.

[Red_Rage]

Well, there are people who don't care about money at all. But they may care about power. I think Putin is such person.

Many liberal and western journalists wrote about Putin's billions, but there no any evidence for today.



Nah Putin loves wealth and money - just look at the details of his wardrobe (very, very expensive stuff). You really think he got nothing from destruction of UKOS?

[khukuri]

Well, there are people who don't care about money at all. But they may care about power. I think Putin is such person.

Many liberal and western journalists wrote about Putin's billions, but there no any evidence for today.


Of course Putin have taken something, its Russia for gods sake. But still I doubt its anywhere near what others in positions like him have taken. As Alex says, Putins main interest isn't money. Its power and the dream of seeing Russia on its feet again. I dont agree with his style but then Im not in russia, I have shed loads of respect for him thou.


Nah Putin loves wealth and money - just look at the details of his wardrobe (very, very expensive stuff). You really think he got nothing from destruction of UKOS?

What watch he wares and how expensive stuff he wears are important political symbols, not just about fancying stuff.

[MZKT]

In communist times a lot of towns were built or developed around one big factory , when communism collapsed and market economy introduced they were left not efficient and competitive and lost market , without diversified economy such towns simply collapsed.



Actually they weren't inefficient, just the new "owners" which won them on closed auctions in Jelzins inner circle preferred to sell the factories out and transfer the money to offshore accounts instead of successfull leading the companies. Was a pretty obvious decision, why to work hard as a boss and earn some millions per years, if you can fire the people and sell the factories equipment for a price much higher then the bribes you payed for "buying" it.
History don't know an example of a government deliberately sabotating own economy more then Chubajs and Jelzins did in the 90s. And the fact that most of people involved in those are not jailed but still free and high-ranking prove the weakness of russian justice.

Putins failure is not that he jailed Chodorkowski but that he jailed him alone, while there are much more which deserve the same, but are safe as long they stay within Putin's circle.

[Cornelius]

Putin is a big leader, he rules Russia...

[zg18]

Riiiight, I believe it as much as Putin's declared income (2 bedroom apartment, 2 domestic cars, and a small dacha to his name almoast made me shed a tear). Putin was making Sobchak rich throuigh various shady schemes during his time in St. Peterstburg (and every Leningradets knows it). He was a "shadow cardinal" in a way.

Putin lays it down to Deripaska ("Give me back my pen" around 1:20) - Pokazuha at it's best, but still makes you feel warm and fuzzy:


I never said that Putin is saint ,that isn't my point , but Berezovsky confirmed that Putin didn't take bribe from him or "family" or other oligarhs , just to mention this in a light of these event in Pikalevo.

[zg18]

Actually they weren't inefficient, just the new "owners" which won them on closed auctions in Jelzins inner circle preferred to sell the factories out and transfer the money to offshore accounts instead of successfull leading the companies. Was a pretty obvious decision, why to work hard as a boss and earn some millions per years, if you can fire the people and sell the factories equipment for a price much higher then the bribes you payed for "buying" it.
History don't know an example of a government deliberately sabotating own economy more then Chubajs and Jelzins did in the 90s. And the fact that most of people involved in those are not jailed but still free and high-ranking prove the weakness of russian justice.

Putins failure is not that he jailed Chodorkowski but that he jailed him alone, while there are much more which deserve the same, but are safe as long they stay within Putin's circle.

You're right to some extent , i lived in communism too, a lot of companies have crushed ,collapsed ,assets lost etc. Let me give you an example , in Serbia ,Kragujevac Zastava car factory 1989 220.000 cars produced , the best car plant in Eastern block , both BMW and VW interested to buy it , 24 million market + export , Yugoslavia disintegrated ,market has been lost even before the war and sanctions , the factory collapsed and entire town of 200.000 went into depression.

Even countries that had a walk through transitional period towards market economy had lost factories ,companies built in communist times , it's unavoidable , but you look it from Russian perspective and the destruction of 90s , that's OK , but recovery after 1999 showed how big was a Soviet Russia's economy heritage even with all this robbery in 90s.

[Holmes85]

So if I understand correctly, your saying that even though communism no longer exists in Russia, there still exists some remnants of the system within its industries.

[AKS]

Riiiight, I believe it as much as Putin's declared income (2 bedroom apartment, 2 domestic cars, and a small dacha to his name almoast made me shed a tear). Putin was making Sobchak rich throuigh various shady schemes during his time in St. Peterstburg (and every Leningradets knows it). He was a "shadow cardinal" in a way.

Putin lays it down to Deripaska ("Give me back my pen" around 1:20) - Pokazuha at it's best, but still makes you feel warm and fuzzy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ievtOub0OEw&feature=related


Pokazukha or not you sometimes need these type of decisions

The point is, WORKERS SHOULD BE PAYED, THEY WORKED FOR IT.

Besides we dont even know if the plant is not profitable or not profitable ENOUGH.

Also the next logical question is, why is it not profitable?

Global econ crisis aside, from the looks of it the Derepaska guy, like many other Russian oligarchs, did minimum investments into these factories that they practically got for free.

They made their billions, and did not invest them properly, too busy throwing 30 million dollar weddings and multimillion dollar corporate parties, buying yachts and private residences that Sultan of Brunei would be jealous of.

Now when the sh1t hit the fan they have no back up plans...sorry no back up plans for their workers

their back up plan is to live off the untaxed wealth of the past 20 years kept safe in some off shore account(s)


It is not a good way to judge your leader's corruption level by wardrobe; in the early nineties and during the communist times yes, but not today. You dont need to be a rich oligarch nowdays to dress well.

Nothing worn by Putin that I have seen is anything special. You have to remember that high level statesmen get money from the state for different expenses BESIDES from their regular salary.

[HakkaPelitta]

What is an Oligarch anyway? I know some oligarchs have fled Russia to seek refuge in Israel. Apparently They did some unlawful things, like trying to bankrupt Russia.

But was is an Oligrach? Is it the russian word for businessman?

[PeterRJG]

What is an Oligarch anyway? I know some oligarchs have fled Russia to seek refuge in Israel. Apparently They did some unlawful things, like trying to bankrupt Russia.

But was is an Oligrach? Is it the russian word for businessman?

It's a Greek word. Rule by an elite few. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy

[Codazo]

Evil,evil Putin making poor men pay their workers, I mean c'mon how undemocratic...

[Sea Dragon]

Putin himself is the biggest Russian oligarch altogether with several thousands of his KGB cronies. So Putin's "battle with oligarchs" simply is an unfair competition. :)

[TheArmenian]

Well done Vlad.

[Red_Rage]

Pokazukha or not you sometimes need these type of decisions

The point is, WORKERS SHOULD BE PAYED, THEY WORKED FOR IT.

Besides we dont even know if the plant is not profitable or not profitable ENOUGH.

Also the next logical question is, why is it not profitable?

Global econ crisis aside, from the looks of it the Derepaska guy, like many other Russian oligarchs, did minimum investments into these factories that they practically got for free.

They made their billions, and did not invest them properly, too busy throwing 30 million dollar weddings and multimillion dollar corporate parties, buying yachts and private residences that Sultan of Brunei would be jealous of.

Now when the sh1t hit the fan they have no back up plans...sorry no back up plans for their workers

their back up plan is to live off the untaxed wealth of the past 20 years kept safe in some off shore account(s)


It is not a good way to judge your leader's corruption level by wardrobe; in the early nineties and during the communist times yes, but not today. You dont need to be a rich oligarch nowdays to dress well.




Put grilling Deripaska on this video is like Taras Bulba killing his wayward son (with infamous "I gave you birth and I will kill you").

Putin never took anything from Berezovsky because he didn't have to. He pushed away Yeltsin's old favorites and replaced them with his own.

This whole "Putin against oligarchs" thing is really laughable. Look at the Pikalevo incident - is it normal for a PM to fly to some backwater village (with dramatic helicopter landing, which some Russian bloggers compared to infamous scene from "Apocalypse Now"), organize a farce of a press-conference (everything had been discussed in Moscow beforehand), and appear as this reinessance man ready to set shyt straight during the conference? Nothing but a smoke screen IMHO.


Nothing worn by Putin that I have seen is anything special. You have to remember that high level statesmen get money from the state for different expenses BESIDES from their regular salary.

Breguet and Patek Phillipe watch - $20-30k
That jacket his wearing during press-conferece is at least $1,500
His suits are 5k each (at least)

[JCR]

is it normal for a PM to fly to some backwater village (with dramatic helicopter landing, which some Russian bloggers compared to infamous scene from "Apocalypse Now"), organize a farce of a press-conference (everything had been discussed in Moscow beforehand), and appear as this reinessance man ready to set shyt straight during the conference? Nothing but a smoke screen IMHO.

Actually yes, such scenes have been enacted by pretty much every head of government in nearly every european state in the last years.
Berlusconi did it, Schröder did, Sarkozy...
Maybe not that martial in style, but the same thing is very popular with leaders.

[daily666]

Didn't know it's a main task of a Prime Minister of the biggest country on Earth to mess up into some plant's issues. The way I see it, there are propably hundreds of such places with similar problems. Does Mr Putin dealt with these too? Because all I see is a cheap propaganda and central management. If he does mess up in all those problems it means Russia is in big **** cause there are far more important issues than a plant full of enraged workers. We all know it will fail if the business is not profitable, sooner or later, even with or without the sacred touch of the Prime Minister. It's how economy works.

[zg18]

Didn't know it's a main task of a Prime Minister of the biggest country on Earth to mess up into some plant's issues. The way I see it, there are propably hundreds of such places with similar problems. Does Mr Putin dealt with these too? Because all I see is a cheap propaganda and central management. If he does mess up in all those problems it means Russia is in big **** cause there are far more important issues than a plant full of enraged workers. We all know it will fail if the business is not profitable, sooner or later, even with or without the sacred touch of the Prime Minister. It's how economy works.


Did you actually read anything here?? Pikalevo town is the among the worst hit in crisis, factory is divided in 3 parts and three different owners who messed up things , basically bad management becuase of their arrogance who has bigger di*k, why should people starve to death because big capitalists f*cked up?? Isn't job of politician among others to protect ordinary citizens?? The point is in majority countries guys like Deripaska would own the states ,in Russia state own "Deripaskas" ,this (you can say propaganda) is from my view point healthy situation , i think interests of few can't be replaced by intersts of majority , look what happened in US , that's not how economy works.

[Switek]

Didn't know it's a main task of a Prime Minister of the biggest country on Earth to mess up into some plant's issues. The way I see it, there are propably hundreds of such places with similar problems. Does Mr Putin dealt with these too? Because all I see is a cheap propaganda and central management. If he does mess up in all those problems it means Russia is in big **** cause there are far more important issues than a plant full of enraged workers. We all know it will fail if the business is not profitable, sooner or later, even with or without the sacred touch of the Prime Minister. It's how economy works.

Have you ever heard about PR? ;)... It's not about the fate of Pikalovo inhabitants but balls of Russian PM. This whole footage smells staged...

[intelligenzija]

Didn't know it's a main task of a Prime Minister of the biggest country on Earth to mess up into some plant's issues. The way I see it, there are propably hundreds of such places with similar problems. Does Mr Putin dealt with these too? Because all I see is a cheap propaganda and central management. If he does mess up in all those problems it means Russia is in big **** cause there are far more important issues than a plant full of enraged workers. We all know it will fail if the business is not profitable, sooner or later, even with or without the sacred touch of the Prime Minister. It's how economy works.

They were demonstrating and demanding to talk to the prime minister. The government had to react.
If it was the right way to solve the problem is a different question.

[void]

Have you ever heard about PR? ;)... It's not about the fate of Pikalovo inhabitants but balls of Russian PM. This whole footage smells staged...

Sometimes you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone...

[AKS]

Put grilling Deripaska on this video is like Taras Bulba killing his wayward son (with infamous "I gave you birth and I will kill you").

Putin never took anything from Berezovsky because he didn't have to. He pushed away Yeltsin's old favorites and replaced them with his own.

This whole "Putin against oligarchs" thing is really laughable. Look at the Pikalevo incident - is it normal for a PM to fly to some backwater village (with dramatic helicopter landing, which some Russian bloggers compared to infamous scene from "Apocalypse Now"), organize a farce of a press-conference (everything had been discussed in Moscow beforehand), and appear as this reinessance man ready to set shyt straight during the conference? Nothing but a smoke screen IMHO.



Breguet and Patek Phillipe watch - $20-30k
That jacket his wearing during press-conferece is at least $1,500
His suits are 5k each (at least)

You are accusing the man for doing what every leader on this earth has done is doing and will do.

Derepaska's face was not staged, the guy got humiliated, and he was sh1tting bricks and rightfully so.

So what that he came there with a helicopter, would you prefer him to take the train and then switch two buses to arrive to his location?

A lot of things in politics has to do with the show. It helps to get the message to a bigger audience much more effectively (Yukos case being a prime example, play by the rules or end up like this guy). Yes he needs to show to the people that the gov. is acting.

NOW if he did all this and it turned out that in reality Derepaska and him are very close buddies and nothing will be done, THAT will be theater. But the fact is, they are not good friends, and Derepaska will get his ass handed to him soonetr or later if he continues doing what he is doing.

I would call this useful propaganda.

How do you know what watch and costume he is wearing (brand) and lets say if you read or heard about it somewhere how do you know that it was not a gift, world leaders and celebrities do get gifts from these companies, because it is a good advertisement for them.

Also how do you know that it was not payed by the state?

[Codazo]

Breguet and Patek Phillipe watch - $20-30k
That jacket his wearing during press-conferece is at least $1,500
His suits are 5k each (at least)

So a russian PM should buy his suits in ZARA MEN and wear a Swatch? C'mon ...

[AKS]

Didn't know it's a main task of a Prime Minister of the biggest country on Earth to mess up into some plant's issues.

The last sentence by Putin in this video says just that

"If you cant handle these types of situations by yourselves, then we will do it without you"

meaning

I shouldnt come here to deal with this sh1t, but if you cant act like big boys we will be forced to take over

[sektor]

good job .

[Winger]

Not really he is a authoritarian politician... never was an oligarch.

Not directly. But, during his time in Petersburg he was hooked up with the Gas Mafia. Otherwise, he wouldn't be where he is today.