Dutch equipment and new camouflage

[JVS]

New (experimental) camouflage and equipment of the Dutch army...

Pictures take by myself today at the open days of the Dutch army.

http://www.plaatjesupload.nl/bekijk/2009/06/06/1244310135-090.png

[JVS]

http://www.plaatjesupload.nl/bekijk/2009/06/06/1244310275-980.png

http://www.plaatjesupload.nl/bekijk/2009/06/06/1244310330-920.png

http://www.plaatjesupload.nl/bekijk/2009/06/06/1244310395-860.png

[dersammler]

interesting.
thanks for sharing

[Soldat_Américain]

http://www.plaatjesupload.nl/bekijk/2009/06/06/1244310275-980.png



Are they really going to deploy these Ops-Core FAST helmets? No knock on them, I'd just like to have one.

[tercio67]

Dutch experimental patterns

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/61/newdutchpattern.th.jpg (http://img4.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newdutchpattern.jpg)

[Soldat_Américain]

Dutch experimental patterns

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/61/newdutchpattern.th.jpg (http://img4.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newdutchpattern.jpg)
I like ze green one...the one second from the top right and second bottom lower left.

[Arfah]

It's good to see the Nederlanders developing their own camouflage instead of adapting another nations.
The new helmets are a futuristic step forward, I hope they offer improved levels of protection. They look a bit skatepark though. :-)

However, I think they should retain DPM (but then, I would).

[Soldat_Américain]

well the design of the Ops-Core helmets give that impression but square cm wise they give the same if not a few more mms of protection...but they're a little expensive if you want to have one as a toy...

[Macaca sylvanus]

New (experimental) camouflage and equipment of the Dutch army...

Pictures take by myself today at the open days of the Dutch army.

http://www.plaatjesupload.nl/bekijk/2009/06/06/1244310135-090.png

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll30/lstagnetto/leiahel.jpg

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll30/lstagnetto/lukehel.jpg

Inspiration? :)

[Gleipnir]

http://www.plaatjesupload.nl/bekijk/2009/06/06/1244310330-920.png


Very interesting pattern. I have to say, there is something very Dutch about the colours.

[hsh2]

^^^
Very interesting pattern indeed. When I scrolled down and got a glimpse the first thing that came to my mind was "3D".

To my eyes it looks unlike any other camo pattern i've seen so far, it has kind of a holographic, 3dimensional look to it. Unlike other pattern it doesn't look flat or plane (which is probably a good thing if what I perceive is real and intended). Hard to describe.

[G-AWZT]

Very interesting pattern. I have to say, there is something very Dutch about the colours.



Looks like the German "Lozenge" wing camo from WWI.

[Britboy]

Looks almost like Flecktarn but in a more honeycomb type of pattern than just dots.

Good on the Dutch tho, seems like sound kit - I wonder if the RNLMC will be able to keep their different cammies/woodlands howeverp-)

[tercio67]

Looks almost like Flecktarn but in a more honeycomb type of pattern than just dots.

Good on the Dutch tho, seems like sound kit - I wonder if the RNLMC will be able to keep their different cammies/woodlands howeverp-)

Nope, from 2015 onwards the whole of the arned forces will have the same uniform.
The idea is to have an 'uniquely Dutch' pattern, there will be 4 versions; standard, temperate (desert), foliage (tropical/jungle) and winter. A fifth version, urban, is under consideration.

[Mister_manji]

it looks like the section of that helmet that covers the ears is perhaps removable.

[tercio67]

it looks like the section of that helmet that covers the ears is perhaps removable.

It is a modular helmet.

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/4746/6d4f425eb198401a9a88798.th.jpg (http://img199.imageshack.us/my.php?image=6d4f425eb198401a9a88798.jpg)

[FireNL]

Very interesting pattern. I have to say, there is something very Dutch about the colours.


yes. interesting. but why grey? what are they going to use that for, urban?:oops: or are my eyes mistaking me? :roll:

[Britboy]

Nope, from 2015 onwards the whole of the arned forces will have the same uniform.
The idea is to have an 'uniquely Dutch' pattern, there will be 4 versions; standard, temperate (desert), foliage (tropical/jungle) and winter. A fifth version, urban, is under consideration.


Anyone know how the standard/temperate differs from the tropical/jungle - most countries (British DPM, US when they had Woodland, French CCE) seem to use the same pattern for continental and tropic conditions (i.e. whether in UK/US/Europe or in jungle). Most countries don't seem to bother adding another pattern on top of standard and desert...

Or are the Dutch branching out with a study of what fits into tropic conditions better than standard woodland patterns - kind've like how we did with the trops in luminous bright DPM back in the day, or how the US did with tiger stripe, or the French with lizard cam?

And does anyone know if 'winter' will be a pattern for snow or not? I'm thinking it could either be a toned-down woodland one, or it could be snow cam or plain white? Urban also sounds promising - given the way warfare is going, I hope they get it!

[Soldat_Américain]

Anyone know how the standard/temperate differs from the tropical/jungle - most countries (British DPM, US when they had Woodland, French CCE) seem to use the same pattern for continental and tropic conditions (i.e. whether in UK/US/Europe or in jungle). Most countries don't seem to bother adding another pattern on top of standard and desert...

Or are the Dutch branching out with a study of what fits into tropic conditions better than standard woodland patterns - kind've like how we did with the trops in luminous bright DPM back in the day, or how the US did with tiger stripe, or the French with lizard cam?

And does anyone know if 'winter' will be a pattern for snow or not? I'm thinking it could either be a toned-down woodland one, or it could be snow cam or plain white? Urban also sounds promising - given the way warfare is going, I hope they get it!
I don't know what my dear Army uses in the Jungle as I went into the Jungle with ACUs...granted I'm not SF of any type. The French use Tiger Stripe, well at least the 3e REI does when they are in the Jungle, and well they're the Jungle Warfare specialists you know.

[CV9035NL]

http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu173/Katsumoti/Untitled2.jpg
This will be the new weapon all Infantry Units should get (Painf/LMB) before the end of 2009 !!

http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu173/Katsumoti/Untitled.jpg

1: Rail Interface System
2: Laserpointer, visible or invisible.
3: Aimpoint with magnifier.
4: Dunno what it's called in English (Verstelbare kolf)
5: Lightmodule.
6: Hand grip for easier carrying or shooting positions

This is what we should get before the end of 2009, ofcourse not all the options will be on everybody's weapon, like the laserpointer, only the GPC will get it and the light module is easy to put on and take off.. so you can "design" your own weapon.

It also has a shorter barrel, and it also looks way more awesome p-)

[tercio67]

What is/has been done so far is they photographed about 80 terrain types under different light conditions and during different seasons all over the world. For this they used in every photo a 'colour board' so a computer would be able to accurately translate the information. Different camera's were used as well (IR, UV etc.).
From this information the averages for the uniform have been determined.
The pattern is a 'fractional' pattern that is confusing to the human eye ( > 100m) and can appear to some as 3D.
Currently different fabrics are tested, different models as well.
Around 2011 the test fase will be completed.

[CV9035NL]

What is/has been done so far is they photographed about 80 terrain types under different light conditions and during different seasons all over the world. For this they used in every photo a 'colour board' so a computer would be able to accurately translate the information. Different camera's were used as well (IR, UV etc.).
From this information the averages for the uniform have been determined.
The pattern is a 'fractional' pattern that is confusing to the human eye ( > 100m) and can appear to some as 3D.
Currently different fabrics are tested, different models as well.
Around 2011 the test fase will be completed.

I'm hoping for something nice!! the uniforms we have now are a bit boring :bash: I hope they also make it more like the Arktis - Combat Trousers but then with a new camo pattern. I heard the Smock jackets will already be distributed when you go to Uruzgan?

[nilz]

Anyone know how the standard/temperate differs from the tropical/jungle - most countries

Here's pics of the current jungle cammies:
http://www.vredesnaam.com/kledingjun.html


The desert pattern looks pretty good. Bit sceptical about the palette on the green/grey pattern, but we'll see :)

[hsh2]

What is/has been done so far is they photographed about 80 terrain types under different light conditions and during different seasons all over the world. For this they used in every photo a 'colour board' so a computer would be able to accurately translate the information. Different camera's were used as well (IR, UV etc.).
From this information the averages for the uniform have been determined.
The pattern is a 'fractional' pattern that is confusing to the human eye ( > 100m) and can appear to some as 3D.
Currently different fabrics are tested, different models as well.
Around 2011 the test fase will be completed.

Interesting, thanks.

Would you have a little more indepth info on the confusion/3D part? I mean what do you mean by "can appear to some as 3D"? Does that mean I have a vision disability or something?:lol:

[Frost]

Interesting, thanks.

Would you have a little more indepth info on the confusion/3D part? I mean what do you mean by "can appear to some as 3D"? Does that mean I have a vision disability or something?:lol:

camouflage patterns from the beginning were based on the fact that such a pattern breaks the shape and outline of your body and makes you appear as something that does not resemble a human shape and thus help conseal you from the enemy.

The old ERDL pattern from the vietnam war did this with a small woodland pattern. An enlarged version, M81 woodland, was meant to function the same way, but on a larger distance (less effective on shorter range). The idea behind 'digital' pattern or other spot-patterns (like flechtarn) it that it works with macro and micro patterns. The micro pattern are the small spots that break your shape and confuse the human eye on the short range. On the longer range the small spots blob together and form larger spots creating the macro pattern that conseals you on larger distances. Without such a macro pattern design the entire camouflage would look like a solid colour on large distance and would not break your shapes and thus would not be effective. The micro pattern however is the real addition compared to M81 woodland as M81 is not effective on short ranges as the pattern is too large and the contrast between the colours is too high.

The "3D" effect is just another form of the micro pattern that confuses your eye and creates depth in the pattern, thus making a flat surface look like something else. This will help camouflage you on the short range. I think the effect shows quite well in the picture and the idea could work very well in the field. I have my doubts about the colours used, but the pattern itself looks like a very nice improvement over DPM.

[hsh2]

camouflage patterns from the beginning were based on the fact that such a pattern breaks the shape and outline of your body and makes you appear as something that does not resemble a human shape and thus help conseal you from the enemy.

The old ERDL pattern from the vietnam war did this with a small woodland pattern. An enlarged version, M81 woodland, was meant to function the same way, but on a larger distance (less effective on shorter range). The idea behind 'digital' pattern or other spot-patterns (like flechtarn) it that it works with macro and micro patterns. The micro pattern are the small spots that break your shape and confuse the human eye on the short range. On the longer range the small spots blob together and form larger spots creating the macro pattern that conseals you on larger distances. Without such a macro pattern design the entire camouflage would look like a solid colour on large distance and would not break your shapes and thus would not be effective. The micro pattern however is the real addition compared to M81 woodland as M81 is not effective on short ranges as the pattern is too large and the contrast between the colours is too high.

The "3D" effect is just another form of the micro pattern that confuses your eye and creates depth in the pattern, thus making a flat surface look like something else. This will help camouflage you on the short range. I think the effect shows quite well in the picture and the idea could work very well in the field. I have my doubts about the colours used, but the pattern itself looks like a very nice improvement over DPM.

So it's not just me:lol:

No seriously, thx for the info. Didn't know about this whole micro pattern thing.

Btw have you seen the new Austrian camo? That's a "special" camo if I've ever seen one, downright bizarre. PM me if you want pics. Don't want to derail the thread.

[Jass]

http://www.plaatjesupload.nl/bekijk/2009/06/05/1244227574-368.jpg

http://www.plaatjesupload.nl/bekijk/2009/06/05/1244227287-2814.jpg
http://www.plaatjesupload.nl/bekijk/2009/06/05/1244227287-2813.jpg

[Kaaskop]

Would be nice if the vehicles will get similiar colours :)

[Vince S]

That desert pattern reminds me of Croatia digicam.

[Niels]

The patterns look really good. Let's hope Guy Cramer didn't patent any of these.

[Arfah]

That desert pattern reminds me of Croatia digicam.

x2 !

That was my initial thought too.

[vajt]

http://www.plaatjesupload.nl/bekijk/2009/06/05/1244227287-2814.jpg


Seeing the "green" camo pants and a little bit of the bottom of the shirt of the other "green" pattern, to my eyes, that bigger pattern in the shirt seems to confuse the eyes more than the pattern on the pants....specially at this close distance.

-----JT-----

[Britboy]

Seeing the "green" camo pants and a little bit of the bottom of the shirt of the other "green" pattern, to my eyes, that bigger pattern in the shirt seems to confuse the eyes more than the pattern on the pants....specially at this close distance.

-----JT-----

I agree. Digicam is v popular and must work on some level otherwise why would Armies all over adopt it. BUT considering that you are likely going to be at 100-300m when trying not to get seen, I can't see how those little pixels work. They would just be a mush to the eye at that range. Something with bigger shapes - like DPM, CCE, or even this - would be better I think.

[STEPAN1983]

pattern is interesting, but cut is ugly (shirt and trousers).

[Rakki]

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll30/lstagnetto/leiahel.jpg

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll30/lstagnetto/lukehel.jpg

Inspiration? :)

I was thinking Starship Troopers and Mobile Infantry myself...

[Frost]

Seeing the "green" camo pants and a little bit of the bottom of the shirt of the other "green" pattern, to my eyes, that bigger pattern in the shirt seems to confuse the eyes more than the pattern on the pants....specially at this close distance.

-----JT-----

I agree that the larger pattern has more depth than the smaller pattern, but the smaller pattern is perhaps better suited to camouflage you on the shorter range since it has a look that mimics the natural enviroment better than the blocks on the larger pattern.

But we'll have to see a side-by-side comparison in the field to judge the real effectiveness of the pattern. The latvian desert pattern for example has realitive large 'pixels' but works quite well. The new italian camouflage has very small spots and works extremely well also.

I've seen pictures of the MARPAT pattern used by georgian forces in the conflict for south osetia and on some of the pictures the soldiers would blend in with the enviroment at just a few meters away. The woodland pants in the picture has a small pattern that more or less the same 'pixel'-size as MARPAT, so I think it's very promising.

I'm VERY interested in these patterns and can't wait to see them in the field.



About the cut of the new uniform: in the other dutch topic there were pictures of a new desert uniform with trousers that had leg pockets much like the American ACU uniform, but without the Velcro and with Canadian buttons instead. I quite like that design. I always thought the American BDU (used by the dutch marines) has a much more practical and comfortable cut than the dutch DPM uniform. The leg pockets on the army uniform are also too small IMO and I don’t like the buttons. I also own a pair of ACU trousers and I must say I like the design a lot and they are very comfortable to work in. I hope the new dutch designs will be fielded soon.

[Ghostrider_NL]

the ears of the modular helmet are not removable, otherwise you would lose them within a week. the woman of the DMO (defensie materiaal organisatie) told me the showcase helmet was a proto type. the real helmet wil have ears that can be shifted up. ps that new camouflage sucks...

[Connaught Ranger]

Very interesting pattern. I have to say, there is something very Dutch about the colours.

No tulips :-(

[Gleipnir]

pattern is interesting, but cut is ugly (shirt and trousers).

This post is from the Dutch Military thread, I thought I'd put it here since it it gives some good perspective.


Right now, they are testing different fabrics.
Soldiers are asked to wear uniforms made of different fabrics and in different models (the colour scheme is what we are using today however).
Trough questionaires and interviews they are determining wearer comfort and preferences for placement of pockets and reenforcements.
After each round of this they then implement some of the soldiers input, and do it over again (no testing in a office this time).

As for the pattern, it is not finalised yet.
The final colourscheme will look different under different lighting conditions, it is supposed to work at >50m or more and not from < 1m.
You will have noticed there is no black in this scheme, it is replaced with 'burned cienna'. The lighter colours represent light reflecting from different natural enviromental surroundings.


No tulips :-(

Hahaha, well I doubt there will be much battle in the tulip fields. Although it does bring to mind the Czech 'clown' camo. Wasn't it predominantly yellow because they feared combat would take place in fields of sunflowers or is that just a myth?

[STEPAN1983]

So, you say that the uniform cut is based on troops experience. But still I think it sucks.
For example, look at the photo of the shirt. Buttons are not hidden under the fabric. Many countries have gone through this (like USA or USSR). Brits like this design with buttons not hidden, but they use canadian slotted buttons wich are impossible to tear off. Here on the photo we see a simple buttons, and it is worse than typical US buttons because here there are only 2 holes for thread, not 4 (US). The chance that you can tear off this buttons is very high.
Button loops are not horizontal, it is vertical on the photo. The only comment I can say about it is WTF? In all normal clothes button holes are parallel to the direction of button shift (vertical for pocket flaps, horizontal for jacket fastening).
Chest pockets seem to have no any fastening, or maybe there is a velcro hidden under a fabric and we cant see it. Anyway, this design is very good for collecting sand insude a pocket. Why cant they use normal zipper or flap with velcro or buttons.
Also I see a horizontal stitch on the frontal part of body. Why they cant do this part of a jacket with one piece of fabric, like in BDU/ACU cut?

In short, I think that designers are on drugs (or a soldiers who gave them advices)

[Gleipnir]

I think that these are just simple examples to show the pattern...

The pattern/colour as well as the cut are still being tested, as Tercio said, they are conducting research into what the troops like best and after all of this testing is completed they will decide on the final cut.

[tercio67]

What you see in the photo is the uniform blouse, something that is usualy worn in barracks or a office.
The fact that there is a horizontal stich on the front is so that there is no seam on the top of the shoulder, the epaulets fasten with velcro, this prevents pressurepoints.
If worn in the field (as part of a layered system in winter) the combat jacket will be worn over it.
Usualy the blouse is only worn by office tigers.
As for scooping up sand, the cleaning lady will take care of that in most office buildings.

As Gleipnir said they are just samples printed on cloth.
Nobody knows yet what the new uniform will look like, but uniforms with slanted pockets, chinese collar and canadian stile buttons have been distributed in limeted numbers in Afghanistan, for an ex in senegal and the Antilles.

[jsb]

I think its looks great feels great.
Velcro chest opener on the chest,schuine pockets ,no collar .arm pockets.
pants good wide leg pockets with elasticband 2 bandage pockets zippers undeside pants .
Also posted in the dutch thread.
jeroen

[Gleipnir]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=4149385&postcount=7743

here is the post jsb mentions. I Hope you don't mind, Jeroen.

[vajt]

I agree that the larger pattern has more depth than the smaller pattern, but the smaller pattern is perhaps better suited to camouflage you on the shorter range since it has a look that mimics the natural enviroment better than the blocks on the larger pattern.

But we'll have to see a side-by-side comparison in the field to judge the real effectiveness of the pattern. The latvian desert pattern for example has realitive large 'pixels' but works quite well. The new italian camouflage has very small spots and works extremely well also.

I've seen pictures of the MARPAT pattern used by georgian forces in the conflict for south osetia and on some of the pictures the soldiers would blend in with the enviroment at just a few meters away. The woodland pants in the picture has a small pattern that more or less the same 'pixel'-size as MARPAT, so I think it's very promising.

I'm VERY interested in these patterns and can't wait to see them in the field.



About the cut of the new uniform: in the other dutch topic there were pictures of a new desert uniform with trousers that had leg pockets much like the American ACU uniform, but without the Velcro and with Canadian buttons instead. I quite like that design. I always thought the American BDU (used by the dutch marines) has a much more practical and comfortable cut than the dutch DPM uniform. The leg pockets on the army uniform are also too small IMO and I don’t like the buttons. I also own a pair of ACU trousers and I must say I like the design a lot and they are very comfortable to work in. I hope the new dutch designs will be fielded soon.

Any ideas when the results will be announced?

I did see some pics of the Latvian uniform and I agree, it looks rather silly but when placed out in the field, it actually works fairly well.

-----JT-----

[Leftywings]

I wonder, have any of you that are complaining at the new experimental pattern actually seen the thing with your own eyes? (And not on a photograph.)

The photo of it doesn't actually do it justice :/, the whole goal of the thing was making your brain believe nothing is there, hence why it's so hard to focus on the large pattern version with your eyes.
And quite frankly: It does it's job very well in that part.

That, and if I wanted to look pretty I'd join the air force p-).

[mcantu]

I agree. Digicam is v popular and must work on some level otherwise why would Armies all over adopt it. BUT considering that you are likely going to be at 100-300m when trying not to get seen, I can't see how those little pixels work. They would just be a mush to the eye at that range. Something with bigger shapes - like DPM, CCE, or even this - would be better I think.

the edges looking like mush is exactly the purpose of pixelated camo patterns. its supposed to prevent the harsh boundary where different colors meet...

[Ipkiss]

In response to how the new jacket and trousers will/should be styled.

I made a call to the company shown in the inseam of JBS's pics. Indeed, they told me that they made a small quantity (around 200) of these jackets and trousers for the army. Unfortunately there weren't any further orders placed.

Interestingly though: when you look up the NSN at the KPU pricelist database it also mentions the same jacket and trousers in DPM. Now THAT's interesting!
However no jackets and trousers have been made in DPM, so this is a bit odd. KPU couldn't help me any further sadly enough.
Is KPU mentioning these NSN's for the (near) future?

I'd love to get my hands on a pair of these jackets and trousers in DPM, but therefore you would need to have around 100 or more being made to be cost effective..

Also curious if we will get UBACS type shirts in the future.. Let's wait and see.

[warGOD]

Also curious if we will get UBACS type shirts in the future.. Let's wait and see.
A company selling Asia-made UBACS says he recently received a 300 pieces order. Not official I guess, I think they are just for one unit.

Quite possible they are not even allowed to wear them in the end: the company told me they should be Dutch DPM, in fact they were UK DPM when I received my copy I ordered. *sigh*

[FireNL]

where did you order yours then?

[warGOD]

www.barang.nl

[FireNL]

odd. heard lots of good things about them although i havent ordered there myself

[Black Dog]

I think its looks great feels great.
Velcro chest opener on the chest,schuine pockets ,no collar .arm pockets.
pants good wide leg pockets with elasticband 2 bandage pockets zippers undeside pants .
Also posted in the dutch thread.
jeroen


...slanted pockets... ;)

[CV9035NL]

Does anyone have a picture of the stuff that are included in the SMP Pack? i can't seem to find one :-(

[Gleipnir]

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv2/radialsesamoid/2014-NL-Cam.jpg


Unveiled at a recent Army shooting competition, the garrison and field variants are reportedly to see fielding beginning in 2014 as an extension of the Soldier Modernization Program (in Dutch, VOSS for the English Improved Operational Soldier System). It is anticipated that this variant, intended for woodland and urban environments, will not see any further alteration. The pattern is of the so-called fractal design, which uses patterns within patterns. Additionally, there is an arid pattern under development. As you can see, the Soldiers are in front of a TenCate (http://www.tencate.com/Pages/5823/TenCate/TenCate-Protective-Fabrics/TenCate-Protective-Fabrics-TenCate-Protective-Fabrics) sign. According to reporting, the uniforms are made from TenCate’s Defender-M fabric, which is the same fabric story as the Army’s FR ACU and USMC’s FROG.

It looks like the pattern got smaller.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv2/radialsesamoid/Dutch-Camo.jpg

[Dirty-Dutch]

I really love the new uniforms, i think the camo is great. actually im the guy on the right in the first picture... and the uniforms we had on that day were made from Defender-M from ten cate. its a very thick material, and i really think its not suitable for infantry type jobs. but its great for vehicle crews i guess, for its great fire resistant abbility. And the people from SMP project that were there also said Defender M is a very expensive fabric. The pattern itself was 99% certain for being introduces cause they hadnt developed a back up pattern. the layout of the uniforms was stil being worked on ;)

[Ipkiss]

99% sure ey? I wonder what they'll decide on the colours of the gear that we'll put on top of these uniforms? Also in this pattern or a solid color? I hope the last option as I would doubt a lot of companies will manufacture other gear in these colours.

[Sheikh Al Stranghi]

I really love the new uniforms, i think the camo is great. actually im the guy on the right in the first picture... and the uniforms we had on that day were made from Defender-M from ten cate. its a very thick material, and i really think its not suitable for infantry type jobs. but its great for vehicle crews i guess, for its great fire resistant abbility. And the people from SMP project that were there also said Defender M is a very expensive fabric. The pattern itself was 99% certain for being introduces cause they hadnt developed a back up pattern. the layout of the uniforms was stil being worked on ;)

Why not suited for Infantry jobs? Too warm, not breathable enough?

[Dirty-Dutch]

yep, thats it, its a very thick fabcric, i actually had it on and it was very warm, en not that much of flexible type ;)

[ThePlato]

Reminds me of Russian Flecktarn-D

http://i40.tinypic.com/15yx10n.jpg

[MonkeySoldier]

I really love the new uniforms, i think the camo is great. actually im the guy on the right in the first picture... and the uniforms we had on that day were made from Defender-M from ten cate. its a very thick material, and i really think its not suitable for infantry type jobs. but its great for vehicle crews i guess, for its great fire resistant abbility. And the people from SMP project that were there also said Defender M is a very expensive fabric. The pattern itself was 99% certain for being introduces cause they hadnt developed a back up pattern. the layout of the uniforms was stil being worked on ;)
Has the pattern been approved yet by the MoD? Also, you said the layout of the uniforms was still being worked on, does that mean there are some issues with it? Positioning of the breast pockets for example, or more smaller things such as zippers/ buttons not being practical? Also, will the black leather boots (HAIX/ M90) stay, or eventually be replaced with a more US style boot, in tan color? As those boots kinda stick out a lot, and I've seen soldiers wearing brown colored boots/ mountain shoes.

[Aibeethoven]

Has the pattern been approved yet by the MoD? Also, you said the layout of the uniforms was still being worked on, does that mean there are some issues with it? Positioning of the breast pockets for example, or more smaller things such as zippers/ buttons not being practical? Also, will the black leather boots (HAIX/ M90) stay, or eventually be replaced with a more US style boot, in tan color? As those boots kinda stick out a lot, and I've seen soldiers wearing brown colored boots/ mountain shoes.

I think the boots you metion are the Meindls (don't exactly know which type, I guess the Island Pro's) which are / were issued to members of the battle group for their deployment in Afghanistan.

I also heard that the black boots (different brands, Haix, German Army, chinese ripoffs) will also be replaced by black Meindls. Maybe we'll get shoes which will match the new camo pattern...

[Dirty-Dutch]

the layout of the uniforms still is being tested for whst is most practical, dont know anything more about it. about the boots, the guys from the project said that most likely we would get some other boots then the black haix... and almost every member of the army is buying their own boots nowadays.. so lets hope they will get us some proper boots right away. most likely brown.

[MonkeySoldier]

I think the boots you metion are the Meindls (don't exactly know which type, I guess the Island Pro's) which are / were issued to members of the battle group for their deployment in Afghanistan.

I also heard that the black boots (different brands, Haix, German Army, chinese ripoffs) will also be replaced by black Meindls. Maybe we'll get shoes which will match the new camo pattern...
My bad, I thought the sgt on the left was wearing M90's and Dirty Dutch wearing the HAIX. I've seen those "new" HAIX as well, I'd rather stick to my M90's and use the real HAIX for when going to college.


the layout of the uniforms still is being tested for whst is most practical, dont know anything more about it. about the boots, the guys from the project said that most likely we would get some other boots then the black haix... and almost every member of the army is buying their own boots nowadays.. so lets hope they will get us some proper boots right away. most likely brown.
Hmm, i'm curious what DMO/ TNO will eventually come up with. Regarding the colors of the pattern, it's a mix of urban and woodland, but is it really the most effective out there? Because what kinda worries me is that although there have been a few photo's released, is this actually tested? An obvious example of a bad mix of urban and woodland is the Chinese (http://i.imgur.com/HYcxf.jpg) camouflage. Also, does the paninf and lumbl really train a lot on OVG, so much that urban is an important element in the next new camo pattern? DPM works great on the excercise terrains, but it is quite dark and a lot of improvements on camo has been made ever since it's been introduced (CAD/MARPAT, PenCott, Finnish M/05 etc), but aren't the forrests and fields the working terrain most of the time? Thus meaning it would be better to have the gray replaced by a more sandy color, like with multicam?

[Dirty-Dutch]

How they came up with the colors (so not the pattern) is that they had multiple photos taken all over the world, in different settings, woodlands, urban environments etc. then they put all these pictures in a computer and had the best mix came out the be effective in almost every setting.

[MonkeySoldier]

How they came up with the colors (so not the pattern) is that they had multiple photos taken all over the world, in different settings, woodlands, urban environments etc. then they put all these pictures in a computer and had the best mix came out the be effective in almost every setting.
Alright, makes sense, thank you.

[Dirty-Dutch]

youre welcome ;)

[MonkeySoldier]

Been to the JKC today, where I got to see the camo patterns (both woodland and arid/ desert), good stuff, although the experimental arid version was interesting to see, it wasnt as original as the woodland version. But I have no doubt itll be effective. It was printed on Ten Cate material so the colors looked faded (woodland) , but still fine non the less with enough contrast. I took HD photos but Im not allowed to post them because its still experimental. The layout was very interesting as well, but still a prototype.

[MonkeySoldier]

Having asked for advice what to do with the photo's, here's the result: Photo's of the prototype camo, both woodland/urban and desert/arid (in the back). This is not by definition the new camo as the topic title suggests, it is merely a prototype which hasn't received funding at the moment of writing.


http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6036/20120222120024.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/163/20120222120024.jpg/)


http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/1737/20120222115809.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/837/20120222115809.jpg/)


http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/6453/20120222115858.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/526/20120222115858.jpg/)


http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/7490/20120222115913.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/513/20120222115913.jpg/)


http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/5097/20120222120049.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/96/20120222120049.jpg/)


http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/493/20120222120036.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/20120222120036.jpg/)


http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/3112/20120222115843.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/805/20120222115843.jpg/)

[Ipkiss]

From what I heard from the projectgroup, the 2 patterns are not officially chosen, but they also have no alternatives...

(although they still have a model wearing a multicam shirt..)

Fielding of the new uniforms should start in 2014.

[Sheikh Al Stranghi]

I like the new patterns a lot, they look very German to me. Hopefully this will not cause a riot like back in the '70s when German Flecktarn was chosen and then withdrawn as it looked too much like SS camouflage! Not too keen on all the velcro though. What's wrong with machine sewing?

[Happyrender]

Reminds me of Russian Flecktarn-D

http://i40.tinypic.com/15yx10n.jpg

Isn't that Danish colors?
Then again, the Russians have pretty much every other pattern out there copied also, so it wouldn't surprise me if it is Russian.

[tercio67]

...Not too keen on all the velcro though. What's wrong with machine sewing?

We like to be able to take the name- and unit tags off?

[Sheikh Al Stranghi]

Why? Velcro insignia is only very recent, and the US has already reverted back to sewn insignia... Before that, when opsec was important they'd just remove the insignia when in the field.

[tercio67]

Why? Velcro insignia is only very recent, and the US has already reverted back to sewn insignia... Before that, when opsec was important they'd just remove the insignia when in the field.

We've been using velcro since '92, and will be doing so for a while longer I think.
And what the US does is irrelevant to us.

[Ipkiss]

Then again, the uniform displayed is for testing purposes only. They have yet to decide on how the uniform will look like e.g. what manufacturer will be chosen.

[tercio67]

It does seem likely TenCate will supply the fabric.

[Ipkiss]

They were still unsure if all the uniform will be made from the Defender fabric. It sadly has everything to do with budget..

[MonkeySoldier]

They were still unsure if all the uniform will be made from the Defender fabric. It sadly has everything to do with budget..
Doesn't surprise me at all, voor een dubbeltje op de eerste rij.. (try to get the best as cheap as possible, but goes at the cost of quality)