Who would replace the U.S. as the major ally of Israel?

[Player]

It has already been a while since I started to think about this. Also, this question is more relevant than ever now because of the political differences the U.S. and Israel face due to many disagreements. Regarding the question, my conclusion is that it would probably be the PRC (China), India or perhaps even Russia (remember Lieberman and his pro-Russian policy?), but I would like to hear your opinions too.

Which country would replace the U.S. as the major ally of Israel and why?

Discuss. :)

Oh, and please try to keep it civil.

[sepheronx]

China would love new technology.

[Switek]

Poland, as a moral obligation... ;)

[Player]

Poland, as a moral obligation... ;)

In this case it would rather be Germany I guess...

[Jiggy]

why ?

is US-Israel relations on the rocks already ?

i think theres too many people in our government that supports Israel, so i doubt we'll be parting ways anytime soon.

[Switek]

In this case it would rather be Germany I guess...


Yes, but Poland seems to be a strong supporter of Israel in Europe, contrary to Germany and many other states, esp. those who host big Muslim minorities.

[Scriptable]

China would love new technology.
Interesting. China has the cash reserves burning a hole in its pocket and is expanding its military as fast as it can. But is an Israel tie-up feasible?

[Player]

why ?

Well, just in case you know...


is US-Israel relations on the rocks already ?

If the relations will continue developing in the same direction as they are now, then they will most likely be on the rocks, yes.


i think theres too many people in our government that supports Israel, so i doubt we'll be parting ways anytime soon.

One shouldn't forget that the U.S. was quick to replace France as the major ally in quite a short period of time, following the sudden change of France's policy towards Israel (which by the way has many parallels with current change of American policy), everything is possible.

[d'artagnan]

Interesting. China has the cash reserves burning a hole in its pocket and is expanding its military as fast as it can. But is an Israel tie-up feasible?


I think it's going to be hard. Frankly speaking, china does not need to get involved with the conflict in the region. what china needs is to have good relationship with the Egyptian backed arab countries, Iranian backed countries and israel. So.... that idea is not very feasible. And i don't think chinese would be happy if we become bin laden's next target and why should we?

Plus, israel's def not interested in that kind of new ally thing either.

[Seek]

Yes, but Poland seems to be a strong supporter of Israel in Europe, contrary to Germany and many other states, esp. those who host big Muslim minorities.

muslims have zero influence in german politics... and i'm sure the israelis like our submarines, engines, tank parts and electronic systems. I wonder how much hardware poland provides to israel?

[d'artagnan]

One shouldn't forget that the U.S. was quick to replace France as the major ally in quite a short period of time, following the sudden change of France's policy towards Israel (which by the way has many parallels with current change of American policy), everything is possible.

That's true~ common interests won't last forever

[Fat Lazy American]

Who would replace Israel as the U.S.'s most reliable ally in the region? Egypt or Jordan -- both of which would likely be thrown under the financial and military aid bus along with Israel? Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf States -- useless beyond their piles of cash and stockpiles of oil? The impotent Palestinian Authority? Turkey? If the U.S. pushed away Israel due to "occupation", does that mean Turkey would get pressure over Cyprus and Kurdistan?

Actually, who the hell would want to be an ally of the U.S. anymore? An "close" ally that bolts at the first sign of trouble isn't an ally at all. There wouldn't be an American ally that wouldn't vulnerable to the U.S. dictating the terms of their domestic policy and constantly threatening to remove support. Even countries hostile to Israel would see American abandonment of Israel as a good counterargument to relying on American support.

The U.S. would be very badly diplomatically damaged, at least in the short time -- even in the Arab World where such a move would be applauded in public.

Israel would be hurt perhaps in terms of UNSC Resolution. None resolutions with teeth would ever make it through, though.

In the short term China would become a big customer of Israel's in terms of weapons technology and intelligence and China would become a big provider of Israel in terms of munitions, but there would be no illusions of it being a true "alliance".

Relations with India would improve, perhaps even to the level of a true alliance. India would almost certainly pressure Israel to be less close with China, though.

Singapore would probably remain close to the Israel. Their status as a very small, very successful state surrounded by potentially hostile Muslim states gives them plenty of reasons to trade tactics, technology and intelligence with Israel for the foreseeable future.

Germany would continue to quietly ensure Israel's survivability without necessarily supporting it diplomatically.

And it's likely that there would be a lot more cooperation between Russia and Israel. Suddenly a lot of Israeli, as well as American and European, technology would show up in the PAK-FA program.

Overall, I think Israel would see China as a sort term source of cash and munitions but it would ultimately end up closer to India as a genuine ally and closer to Russia as a new found friend.

An abandonment by the U.S. would leave Israel militarily vulnerable for a short period of time, perhaps. But if it survived beyond that, which is likely, it would have no trouble cultivating new friendships.

And, of course, Stephen Walt would masturbate furiously to thoughts of America betraying Jews.

But this is all, of course, rather academic. The two countries practically share the same circulatory system in terms of intelligence and military technology. Any effort to genuinely break up the pair would be immensely and unnecessarily damaging to both countries.

And no, the U.S./Israeli alliance is not on the rocks. They are just two democracies that have chosen somewhat antagonistic leaders. Obama wanted Livni to win the election. Netanyahu wanted McCain to win the election. Eventually they'll both reconcile themselves to being leaders of countries that are allied and not political opponents by proxy.

(This is way too long, yet it leaves way too many things out.)

[Mackie]

Yes, but Poland seems to be a strong supporter of Israel in Europe, contrary to Germany and many other states, esp. those who host big Muslim minorities.

You have a strong conservative Christian community, the roots of antisemitism. So I don't see the difference. :-)

B2T:
Obamas politics towards the Israeli government was a clear message, and the visit of Buchenwald was a clear message to the people of Israel.
Recent settelmen politics are unacceptable (Melodet: Yes they bought land but this shouln't be legal.)

[RoyB]

Recent settelmen politics are unacceptable (Melodet: Yes they bought land but this shouln't be legal.)
Why?
Do you know what the PA does to the people who sell land to Jews?
Still, they paid for it, they own it.
The world acts like the settlements are the barrier for peace.. and its idiotic as fvck.

[Fat Lazy American]

Recent settelmen politics are unacceptable (Melodet: Yes they bought land but this shouln't be legal.)

Which means there's no real incentive to listen to Obama on settlements. There's a ratcheting effect.

Reagan, Bush, Clinton and Bush all railed against "new" settlement growth. Well, the existing settlements once were new ones. The same settlements that Reagan saw unacceptable became tolerated by Bush I. The same settlements that Bush I saw as unacceptable became tolerated by Clinton. The same settlements Clinton saw as unacceptable became tolerated by Bush II.

"Changing the facts on the ground" may be an "obstacle to peace". But once the facts on the ground have changed, well, they become the new facts on the ground.

Of course, the real obstacle to peace is Arab (and now Iranian) violence and rejectionism. That open calls to genocide and the elimination of a nation-state are treated as an equal problem to building houses on the "wrong" side of an armistice line is absurd. And yes, the "Saudi Plan" is simply another strategy to eliminate the State of Israel.

And of course, from the Israeli-Jordanian Armistice:


9. The Armistice Demarcation Lines defined in articles V (http://www.mideastweb.org/isrjorarmistice1949.htm#art5) and VI (http://www.mideastweb.org/isrjorarmistice1949.htm#art6) of this Agreement are agreed upon by the Parties without prejudice to future territorial settlements or boundary lines or to claims of either Party relating thereto. So why, exactly, is there anything wrong with building beyond the Green Line?

[Player]

Why?
Do you know what the PA does to the people who sell land to Jews?
Still, they paid for it, they own it.
The world acts like the settlements are the barrier for peace.. and its idiotic as fvck.

I hope you will open your eyes and will see how selfish your statement sounds, so you decide the terms for peace? Is it only one side here? What about the other one? You do know that the other side (the Palestinians) disagrees with you? They have their own reasons too you know?

Putting legal claims aside (which are actually in favor of removing illegal settlements), peace will be only achieved when both sides will come to a fair agreement, and not one way ticket like you make it sound.

Anyways, how did we end up discussing the Palestinian issue? There are enough of other threads for it, try to keep it on topic please.

[Mackie]

Why?
Do you know what the PA does to the people who sell land to Jews?
Still, they paid for it, they own it.
The world acts like the settlements are the barrier for peace.. and its idiotic as fvck.

Damn, if you're right we should pay back Danzig.
You don't understand the worth of a clear border.

[RoyB]

I hope you will open your eyes and will see how selfish your statement sounds, so you decide the terms for peace? Is it only one side here? What about the other one? You do know that the other side (the Palestinians) disagrees with you? They have their own reasons too you know?

Putting legal claims aside (which are actually in favor of removing illegal settlements), peace will be only achieved when both sides will come to a fair agreement, and not one way ticket like you make it sound.

Anyways, how did we end up discussing the Palestinian issue? There are enough of other threads for it, try to keep it on topic please.


Damn, if you're right we should pay back Danzig.
You don't understand the worth of a clear border.
I'm not a supporter of the settlers, and for me they are a bunch of fanatic idiots.
But people talk about the settlements like they are the only thing blocking us from getting a decent peace. they tend to forget the fact that the 'Palestinians' are not giving up their ambitions of 'driving us out to the sea', using their terror attacks and continuing riots.
I am not writing the terms for peace, but a guy who lives across the sea and the ocean shouldn't dictate what is right for us. I'm respecting the fact that we need a negotiator in this, but besides talking about what both sides can do in order to achieve peace, he only talks about Israel's issues.
As far as I see it, Israel has bended over enough. its time for the other side to give up some things, so we both can live in peace.
Enough gestures, more exchanges.

[Empulse]

Yes, but Poland seems to be a strong supporter of Israel in Europe, contrary to Germany and many other states, esp. those who host big Muslim minorities.

You are kidding, right? Germany is perhaps the biggest supporter of Israel in Europe. The Gerries are way too afraid to be named 'Nazi's' and therefore will not dear to oppose Israel. Ontopic: I don't see how another country could possibly replace the US as major ally of Israel, nor see I reason for that anytime soon. The US will remain Israel's ally for a long time to come.

[spider1]

Settlements are not an barrier to peace and i will explain why:
before 67 we didnt have any settlement in the west bank or other places and we didnt have any peace we had terror and things like today we have.

[Moledet]

The relations are only problematic currently with Obama's regime. If he changes his foreign policy or in 4 years he's removed from office than naturally the relations will get better. It isn't worth wrecking the alliance with the US over Obama, if they choose to ditch Israel only then we need to start looking for a new ally with veto power.
It's like the case with France and De Gaulle, Chirac. We were close allies until De Gaulle and now that Sarkozy was elected we are close allies again.

[Invisigoth]

Yes, but Poland seems to be a strong supporter of Israel in Europe, contrary to Germany and many other states, esp. those who host big Muslim minorities.

Come again? lol. Remind me again of the time that Poland gave free subs to Israel.

[Empulse]

The relations are only problematic currently with Obama's regime. If he changes his foreign policy or in 4 years he's removed from office than naturally the relations will get better. It isn't worth wrecking the alliance with the US over Obama, if they choose to ditch Israel only then we need to start looking for a new ally with veto power.
It's like the case with France and De Gaulle, Chirac. We were close allies until De Gaulle and now that Sarkozy was elected we are close allies again.

Were the relations between France and Israel so tight? The reason I'm asking this, is because US-Israel relations are special and unique. I don't think another country could easily replace the US.

[Mackie]

I'm not a supporter of the settlers, and for me they are a bunch of fanatic idiots.
But people talk about the settlements like they are the only thing blocking us from getting a decent peace. they tend to forget the fact that the 'Palestinians' are not giving up their ambitions of 'driving us out to the sea', using their terror attacks and continuing riots.
I am not writing the terms for peace, but a guy who lives across the sea and the ocean shouldn't dictate what is right for us. I'm respecting the fact that we need a negotiator in this, but besides talking about what both sides can do in order to achieve peace, he only talks about Israel's issues.
As far as I see it, Israel has bended over enough. its time for the other side to give up some things, so we both can live in peace.
Enough gestures, more exchanges.

It's not the only reason. Their are foreign interests.
But how you can focus the worlds attention on this interest as long those freaks provoke the Palestianian.

[Connaught Ranger]

India, seeing they are buying a lot of Israeli military technology.

Connaught Ranger.

[RoyB]

It's not the only reason. Their are foreign interests.
But how you can focus the worlds attention on this interest as long those freaks provoke the Palestianian.
Yeah, again, its all a result of the provocations done by the settlers.
Riiight..
The world should focus more about the terror attacks rather than on the settlers(who are a problem).

[Moledet]

Were the relations between France and Israel so tight? The reason I'm asking this, is because US-Israel relations are special and unique. I don't think another country could easily replace the US.
Yes, relations were close to what they are today with the US. Israel bought French weapons, French uniforms, there were shared ballistic missiles programs and they gave Israel the nuclear capability. French culture was the mainstream in Israel and not Hollywood.
Overall, the most important thing for us is the complete support in the UNSC. That's what we need the most from a close ally.

[Snoshi]

India, seeing they are buying a lot of Israeli military technology.

Connaught Ranger.

Wont work.. India has a very strong anti-Israeli opposition made up of Muslims and communist's.

[spider1]

Yes, relations were close to what they are today with the US. Israel bought French weapons, French uniforms, there were shared ballistic missiles programs and they gave Israel the nuclear capability. French culture was the mainstream in Israel and not Hollywood.
Overall, the most important thing for us is the complete support in the UNSC. That's what we need the most from a close ally.
Maximum if we dont get support in the UNSC you can ignore their resolutions.

[Moledet]

Maximum if we dont get support in the UNSC you can ignore their resolutions.
You can ignore them, but one day they gonna put sanctions and if there's no veto on sanctions it's a serious problem.

[muck]

Yes, but Poland seems to be a strong supporter of Israel in Europe, contrary to Germany and many other states, esp. those who host big Muslim minorities.That has nothing got to do with a Muslim minority. Germany has always been a strong diplomatic supporter of Israel and supplier of state of the art armament technology. Jewish people and Israeli citizens enjoy special privileges over here. The Central Council of Jews in Germany is a strong pro-Israeli lobby which can dominate politics. They were nearly able to block the sale of the Transrapid Maglev to Iran for example.

And ironically Germany is after Israel the top country for Jews from all over the world to immigrate.

I doubt that any important military allegiance could emerge from that though. We as an entity are still not able to really fight for our interests (or the interests of our partners).

[spider1]

You can ignore them, but one day they gonna put sanctions and if there's no veto on sanctions it's a serious problem.
But if the sanctions are worse then the UNSC resolution so ofcourse its better to "accept" sanctions. what im saying is that its a question of price and benefit what serves more your interests if its to abide or not and get maybe sanctions.

[JCR]

Russia, I suppose.
Not only because of Lieberman but because of many people with dual citizenship and so on.
And in contrary to the western nations, Russia does not really need the Arabs at all. Today they still support Syria etc because of bases, but they're not depending on Arab goodwill as the US or Europe is.
Re Germany, I sofar have failed to see how any of our turks and such have in any way influenced german politics.
Lieberman isn't PC, that's why he isn't liked here, for my part I take Lieberman over Bibi any day, he seems much more of a realist to me, despite his rhetoric.
And regarding Poland, what can Poland offer to Israel?

France is in a bit of a different situation, as they have much more ties to the Arab world than Germany has. Britain is out of the equation anyway, maybe they can supply surveilance cameras...
Problem is that our german politicians have swallowed the anti-russian stuff hook line and sinker currently and are trying to exchange the gas and oil dependence on Russia for dependence on the Arab world for reasons of "energy security"(!) so Germany might have to face some difficult choices as well in regards to Israel policy.

Turkey would've been a promising ally, but with Erdogan and the AKP this isn't feasible.
A secular, kemalist turkey would be a natural ally for Israel, but these times are apparently over.

[UoUo]

I'm not a supporter of the settlers, and for me they are a bunch of fanatic idiots.
But people talk about the settlements like they are the only thing blocking us from getting a decent peace. they tend to forget the fact that the 'Palestinians' are not giving up their ambitions of 'driving us out to the sea', using their terror attacks and continuing riots.
I am not writing the terms for peace, but a guy who lives across the sea and the ocean shouldn't dictate what is right for us. I'm respecting the fact that we need a negotiator in this, but besides talking about what both sides can do in order to achieve peace, he only talks about Israel's issues.
As far as I see it, Israel has bended over enough. its time for the other side to give up some things, so we both can live in peace.
Enough gestures, more exchanges.

Ha? so now the settlers are bunch of fanatic idiots? all 285,000 of them? what about the officers? the doctors? all of them? what a stupid and ignoorant remark.


As i see it, we have problem with the current president, he prefer the dictatorships of the arabs states over Isreal. that's it.

[ZZEZ]

Ha? so now the settlers are bunch of fanatic idiots? all 285,000 of them? what about the officers? the doctors? all of them? what a stupid and ignoorant remark.


Generalizing settlers is bad, but plenty of settlers are not there for peaceful farm life and cheap home - many of them are provocateurs and its hardly a secret.
Just look at Yizhar, fine example of provocateurs that actively get in to fighting with the Palestinians..they are IMHO worst then the Palestinians..both sides throw rocks on each other and IDF - yet only one goes to jail.

[HakkaPelitta]

I dont think Israel got many friends in this world today. The settlements continue and Israel threatens a war with Iran on a daily basis.

But USA will never ever change its friendly policy with Israel. Ever, regardless of what happens.

[UoUo]

Generalizing settlers is bad, but plenty of settlers are not there for peaceful farm life and cheap home - many of them are provocateurs and its hardly a secret.
Just look at Yizhar, fine example of provocateurs that actively get in to fighting with the Palestinians..they are IMHO worst then the Palestinians..both sides throw rocks on each other and IDF - yet only one goes to jail.

How many people were there? 10? 20? 100? 1000? what that means? nothing. how can you say they are there to be provocateurs ? i wish the teens of tel aviv and my country whould have 10% of the values of "Aefrat" (let's say) teens.

[RoyB]

Ha? so now the settlers are bunch of fanatic idiots? all 285,000 of them? what about the officers? the doctors? all of them? what a stupid and ignoorant remark.
Like it or not, every settler who goes out there to build his wooden home after it had been demolished is a fanatic, who doesn't really help its country, but hurting it.
A lot of them as said before are just provocateurs who go out throwing stones, and burning 'Palestinians' fields. not even mentioning the ones who call the IDF and the police 'Nazis' and act against them..
Sure, its not all of them.. but I never liked them, and I'll probably never will.

I dont think Israel got many friends in this world today. The settlements continue and Israel threatens a war with Iran on a daily basis.
Iran threatens a war with Israel on a daily basis.
Just a correction.

[HakkaPelitta]

Iran threatens a war with Israel on a daily basis.
Just a correction.

Do u have a Source?

[RoyB]

For Iran threatening Israel? are you kidding?

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

The new major ally would have to be a member of the Perm 5. And I don't see any of the other 4 stepping up to the plate.

[UoUo]

Like it or not, every settler who goes out there to build his wooden home after it had been demolished is a fanatic, who doesn't really help its country, but hurting it.
A lot of them as said before are just provocateurs who go out throwing stones, and burning 'Palestinians' fields. not even mentioning the ones who call the IDF and the police 'Nazis' and act against them..
Sure, its not all of them.. but I never liked them, and I'll probably never will.

Iran threatens a war with Israel on a daily basis.
Just a correction.

Well, i see you completely missing my point. all the incidents you mention above involved small minorities of settlers.

[NimDod]

Come again? lol. Remind me again of the time that Poland gave free subs to Israel.

I thought that Germany gave the two subs (and the 3rd one for half price) to Israel as a compensation for upgrading Saddam Hussain's Scudd missiles so they can reach Israel and helping Iraq with its chemical weapons program - two things that cost that state of Israel alot more than the cost of 2.5 subs.

[RoyB]

Well, i see you completely missing my point. all the incidents you mention above involved small minorities of settlers.
Its still doesn't changes the fact that the settlers are religious fanatics.

[JCR]

Not that germany was legally obligated to compensate Israel for anything.
It was german companies, not the german state who provided that technology, so all one could say was that german authorities were not quick enough to catch up with that.
There was no official represenative of the german arms industry there, upgrading Saddams rockets.
That was how the german press played it, so we could all feel guilty as usual.
It was a bunch of extremely greedy and careless entrepreneurs and was done under a lot of secrecy.

The real reason was to get the german submarine industry across a dry spell, as no export orders were in sight and no orders for the german navy either.
A normal nation would've just ordered new subs for their own navy, but in the reunification years, it was seen as absolute waste to build new weapons.
HDW would've gone bankrupt without the dolphins, not to mention that the dolphins were a test bed for new technologies that were later put into use with the 212 class.
Israeli-German military industrial cooperation is much larger than usually appreciated, since both sides do not exactly advertise their cooperation.
A good example is this IR based missile launch detection system, which was tested and build in germany.

Also, what exactly can the "moral superpower" Poland do for Israel?

[spider1]

Well, the subs are very important to Israel, because they probably carry nukes and if i dont have a mistake we going to get another 2/3 submarines.

[Moledet]

Its still doesn't changes the fact that the settlers are religious fanatics.
There are 500,000 settlers if you include Jerusalem area (Giva'at Ze'ev, etc...). Many of the small settlements were empty of men during operation Cast Lead because they were sent to fight, while you were writing in this forum. I don't think you get to call them names.

99% of settlers are decent people.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

The present US government is 100% behind Israel they are just asking Israel to give before they get which considering the $$$$$ that they provide is not unreasonable. I accept that they are some very selfish and shortsighted people in Israel who would bite the hand that feeds them but its way to early to start looking for new mates.

[JCR]

On the other hand, if the US runs out of money, it can be behind Israel as long as it wants.
It is a worst case scenario, but I can understand Israel has to weigh the options, even those Israelis who disagree with settlement policies.
Israel cannot self sustain its current level of force, so if the US enters serious financial difficulties, they have to look for new supporters.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

On the other hand, if the US runs out of money, it can be behind Israel as long as it wants.
It is a worst case scenario, but I can understand Israel has to weigh the options, even those Israelis who disagree with settlement policies.
Israel cannot self sustain its current level of force, so if the US enters serious financial difficulties, they have to look for new supporters.If that was the case then I don't see anyone stepping up.

[spider1]

The 3 billion that they give we need to use 75% of it on American stuff so its not really an aid.

[JCR]

I wonder to what extent Israel would have to cut back its armed forces IF the US withdrew entirely from their support.

[Player]

Many of the small settlements were empty of men during operation Cast Lead because they were sent to fight, while you were writing in this forum. I don't think you get to call them names.

99% of settlers are decent people.


Is that how it works for you? Anyone who didn't serve in the IDF automatically loses his right to criticize his country or fellow citizens? That's great, maybe we should just all shut up and kiss our country's a$$ for everything it does, and close our eyes on the violent groups of our society who are grown to hate and discriminate a certain group of people. Let's just ignore all this! Life will be so much easier, huh?

As for the settlers, I don't want to generalize them, but it's surely not 99% you mentioned... More like 10%.

[Eye]

Damn, if you're right we should pay back Danzig.

Gdańsk wasn't German before WWII. It was free city.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

The 3 billion that they give we need to use 75% of it on American stuff so its not really an aid.Then what else would you call it. Its still free sh*t which is cool.

[JCR]

Don't let this thread become Pole-jacked...

[Eye]

You have a strong conservative Christian community, the roots of antisemitism. So I don't see the difference. :-)

AFAIK NSDAP wasn't Christian organization, so I don't get that statement with "roots".

[Moledet]

Is that how it works for you? Anyone who didn't serve in the IDF automatically loses his right to criticize his country or fellow citizens? That's great, maybe we should just all shut up and kiss our country's a$$ for everything it does, and close our eyes on the violent groups of our society who are grown to hate and discriminate a certain group of people. Let's just ignore all this! Life will be so much easier, huh?

As for the settlers, I don't want to generalize them, but it's surely not 99% you mentioned... More like 10%.
No, he can criticize but not call them names. They are more tolerant than you are, they live next door to Arabs and trade with them (which I for example don't). I bet you don't go and fix your car in an Arab village because these barbarians will surely lynch you, the settlers do.

99% are decent people.

[Player]

They are more tolerant than you are,

Do you even know what being tolerant means? Because you are wrong on many levels here.


they live next door to Arabs and trade with them (which I for example don't).

Trading = Tolerance, now I understand how it works. Oh and why don't you trade with them?


I bet you don't go and fix your car in an Arab village because these barbarians will surely lynch you, the settlers do.

Who are the barbarians you are speaking of? The Arabs?


Anyways, this is way off topic, I didn't make this thread to debate about the nature of settlers.

[Moledet]

Trading = Tolerance, now I understand how it works. Oh and why don't you trade with them?

Yes, it does. For centuries when you don't like someone you boycott him.



Who are the barbarians are you speaking of? The Arabs?

Yes, that seem to be the consensus in tolerant freedom city Tel Aviv. Are you crazy fixing your car behind the green line? You'll get murdered.

[SBL]

The 3 billion that they give we need to use 75% of it on American stuff so its not really an aid.
Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

[RoyB]

The present US government is 100% behind Israel they are just asking Israel to give before they get which considering the $$$$$ that they provide is not unreasonable. I accept that they are some very selfish and shortsighted people in Israel who would bite the hand that feeds them but its way to early to start looking for new mates.
The only thing that Israel has done over the years is give give and give. it got nothing back but more death and sorrow.
Now, even the US is not in a position to dictate terms for Israel, whether they are giving 4 billion a year, or 10 billion.
And where are you from, sir?

Then what else would you call it. Its still free sh*t which is cool.
Its not free if you get something back.

[spider1]

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
What do you mean? What i said is that its more a gift for Americans that work in Lockheed Martin then Israeli ppl but yes we get weapons for free but we cant develop with it our weapon companies(only 25% of it we can use on Israeli weapons if i dont have a mistake).

[Moledet]

What do you mean? What i said is that its more a gift for Americans that work in Lockheed Martin then Israeli ppl but yes we get weapons for free but we cant develop with it our weapon companies(only 25% of it we can use on Israeli weapons if i dont have a mistake).
It doesn't matter, we'd still buy F16s, F15s, CH-53s, AC-130s, AH-1s, Apaches, etc... even if we didn't get any aid simply because it's the best for our needs. We can't build our own jet fighter or modern attack helicopter.
The reason we have such a large AF is the aid, without it we could buy only a few jet fighters on each order.

[SBL]

What do you mean? What i said is that its more a gift for Americans that work in Lockheed Martin then Israeli ppl but yes we get weapons for free but we cant develop with it our weapon companies(only 25% of it we can use on Israeli weapons if i dont have a mistake).

I meant exactly what I said. You could just as easily get nothing, which doesn't really put you in a position to complain.

[spider1]

It doesn't matter, we'd still buy F16s, F15s, CH-53s, AC-130s, AH-1s, Apaches, etc... even if we didn't get any aid simply because it's the best for our needs. We can't build our own jet fighter or modern attack helicopter.
The reason we have such a large AF is the aid, without it we could buy only a few jet fighters on each order.
If they will stop the aid the government can add money to the budget but it will be instead other things.

[spider1]

I meant exactly what I said. You could just as easily get nothing, which doesn't really put you in a position to complain.
You saying that you give it for free because you like Israel?? You get things that worth more in exchange.

[UoUo]

Is that how it works for you? Anyone who didn't serve in the IDF automatically loses his right to criticize his country or fellow citizens? That's great, maybe we should just all shut up and kiss our country's a$$ for everything it does, and close our eyes on the violent groups of our society who are grown to hate and discriminate a certain group of people. Let's just ignore all this! Life will be so much easier, huh?

As for the settlers, I don't want to generalize them, but it's surely not 99% you mentioned... More like 10%.

WOW, based on what? how many settlers do you know? it's like me saying 90% of the druze or arabs or what ever are bad.

[SBL]

You saying that you give it for free because you like Israel?? You get things that worth more in exchange.
Quite the opposite. At the risk of coining another term: there's no such thing as a free lunch. Still doesn't put you in any position to complain, as Israel accepts the aid just the same.

[spider1]

For example you demanded from us not to sell to China some stuff and you said that if will do you will cut the "aid" we need to work by your dictates for this "aid"

[SBL]

For example you demanded from us not to sell to China some stuff and you said that if will do you will cut the "aid" we need to work by your dictates for this "aid"
Yeah? So?

It so happens that US reserves the right to cut off aid if they feel the Israelis doing things that are contrary to our own interests. This is a standard arrangement, and can be seen in all types of social agreements, be they business, political, etc. Accepting the aid means you've agreed to the terms.

Do I really have to explain this to you?

[UoUo]

Well, as much as i respect the americans and the US for helping us during the years i think the $ they give us is nothing near the political support, so if they cut the 2billion $ well, with all the respect the IDf budget is more than 50 billion shekels. so we can handle without him. anyway, i still don't understand where this going to end up. i ask the americans here again, do you really prefer saudi arabia, ejept and so on as your ally insted of Israel.

Oh and i forgot, acutlly you can't just cut off the aid beacuse it is part of the peace agreement between Egept and Israel.

[SBL]

^Sorry, but that's all part of entering into an agreement. You must abide by the terms.

[klong]

The relations are only problematic currently with Obama's regime. If he changes his foreign policy or in 4 years he's removed from office than naturally the relations will get better. It isn't worth wrecking the alliance with the US over Obama, if they choose to ditch Israel only then we need to start looking for a new ally with veto power.
It's like the case with France and De Gaulle, Chirac. We were close allies until De Gaulle and now that Sarkozy was elected we are close allies again.


Dear Moledet,

I do not see any alternative to USA support for Israel. Why would another country support Israel, for no material or strategic advantage whatsoever ?

You are stuck with the Americans.

Mr Obama made a very balanced and realistic speech in Cairo. Also, this balanced appraisal still underlined full support for Israel. But, to dismiss these points as an "Obama Regime" quirk, is not helpful. The new policy expresses the sincere hope plus aspirations of a vast majority of thinking people throughout the world. Not something to be taken lightly.

Better to get smart, and do the necessary deals with the neighbours. I do not think any successor US administartion will (our could afford to) return the ways Bush (the stupid one).

Klong

[spider1]

Yeah? So?

It so happens that US reserves the right to cut off aid if they feel the Israelis doing things that are contrary to our own interests. This is a standard arrangement, and can be seen in all types of social agreements, be they business, political, etc. Accepting the aid means you've agreed to the terms.

Do I really have to explain this to you?
Ofcourse you can do what you want with your money but dont say that you give it to us because you like us.

[spider1]

Dear Moledet,

I do not see any alternative to USA support for Israel. Why would another country support Israel, for no material or strategic advantage whatsoever ?

You are stuck with the Americans.

Mr Obama made a very balanced and realistic speech in Cairo. Also, this balanced appraisal still underlined full support for Israel. But, to dismiss these points as an "Obama Regime" quirk, is not helpful. The new policy expresses the sincere hope plus aspirations of a vast majority of thinking people throughout the world. Not something to be taken lightly.

Better to get smart, and do the necessary deals with the neighbours. I do not think any successor US administartion will (our could afford to) return the ways Bush (the stupid one).

Klong
I saw a poll and most of the Israelis think he is pro arab.

[UoUo]

^Sorry, but that's all part of entering into an agreement. You must abide by the terms.

So please tell me how we did not abide our side of the term?

[UoUo]

BTW : i whould like to know how saying that "Islam is a relgion of peace and tolerance" standing in 1 of the most teriblle dictatorship in the region side by side next to Saudi arabia when gays are criminals and women have rights of animaels. i whould like to know what is so balanced about his speech.

[Soldat_Américain]

I saw a poll and most of the Israelis think he is pro arab.
Yeah...well then they seriously need to edumacate themselves...our government will support you now pull your head out and worry about real problems.

[SBL]

Ofcourse you can do what you want with your money but dont say that you give it to us because you like us.

That's really a non-issue, don't you think?


So please tell me how we did not abide our side of the term?
That was in response to Spider1's complaint about the US threatening to cut aid if "some stuff" was sold to China.

[spider1]

That's really a non-issue, don't you think?


That was in response to Spider1's complaint about the US threatening to cut aid if "some stuff" was sold to China.
I saw before in tv that one of our ministers said that we can pressure the US by telling them that will sell the phalcon(you probably know what is it) to countries that they dont want and also that we can add other countries to the peace procces so the US will have less weight but i dont think it will happen.

[SiEMpre_Leal]

Israel..ill be your freind..in exchange for diamonds and women.

[SBL]

I saw before in tv that one of our ministers said that we can pressure the US by telling them that will sell the phalcon(you probably know what is it) to countries that they dont want and also that we can add other countries to the peace procces so the US will have less weight but i dont think it will happen.
Keeping with the same theme, that would be called biting the hand that feeds you.
As stated, the US reserves the right to pull the plug if Israel violates the (tacit or implied) terms of the arrangement.

[spider1]

Israel..ill be your freind..in exchange for diamonds and women.
In the US you dont have enough women?

[RoyB]

Keeping with the same theme, that would be called biting the hand that feeds you.
As stated, the US reserves the right to pull the plug if Israel violates the (tacit or implied) terms of the arrangement.
Of course it has the right to stop the money from flowing.
But the fact is, that the US isn't giving up billions of dollars a year just because of its goodwill. But because it has something to earn from it.

[UoUo]

I saw before in tv that one of our ministers said that we can pressure the US by telling them that will sell the phalcon(you probably know what is it) to countries that they dont want and also that we can add other countries to the peace procces so the US will have less weight but i dont think it will happen.

Well, those stupid remarks don't help anyone.

[SBL]

Of course it has the right to stop the money from flowing.
But the fact is, that the US isn't giving up billions of dollars a year just because of its goodwill. But because it has something to earn from it.
That's generally how things are done, isn't it?

[Mackie]

I saw before in tv that one of our ministers said that we can pressure the US by telling them that will sell the phalcon(you probably know what is it) to countries that they dont want and also that we can add other countries to the peace procces so the US will have less weight but i dont think it will happen.

Means the hamster in the cage goes crazy?

[SiEMpre_Leal]

In the US you dont have enough women?

oh yes we do...im just a lil greedy.

[spider1]

Well, those stupid remarks don't help anyone.
Thats what Yossi peled from Likud said.

[spider1]

oh yes we do...im just a lil greedy.
Lol you probably like Bar Refeali(im pretty sure you know who is she):).

[spider1]

Means the hamster in the cage goes crazy?
LOL it will not happen but you probably remember that before some years they got mad when we made a phalcon deal with China(and it was canceled) for sure Taiwan will not like it.

[SiEMpre_Leal]

Lol you probably like Bar Refeali(im pretty sure you know who is she):).

I just looked her up...shes HOT!..caliente

[spider1]

I just looked her up...shes HOT!..caliente
Google Moran Atias:).

[SiEMpre_Leal]

i think im in love.....

[spider1]

Lol you really googled them?:)

[SiEMpre_Leal]

si.............

[spider1]

Jenna Jameson is hot. you probably know who is she.

[SiEMpre_Leal]

Jenna Jameson is hot. you probably know who is she.


oh yeah i know who she is...im a big fan of her videos lmao....but im loosing interest..shes almost made of plastic....

[RoyB]

Can't you just stop the **** talk?

[RoyB]

That's generally how things are done, isn't it?
Than what are we talking about here?

[SBL]

Than what are we talking about here?
The principle of looking a gift horse in the mouth.

[FullMetalJackass]

Once this abortion of an administration is gone they will side with the US and vice versa again.

[Degenek]

The 3 billion that they give we need to use 75% of it on American stuff so its not really an aid.

Another 3 Billion dollar check form the sheeple taxpayers of the U.S. like they get every year.

Remember, by U.S. law ALL nations that get foreign aid 1.) must show the U.S. in writing where it goes and 2.) receive it in quarterly installments.

The country that receives the most actuall receives more than All Other Countries Combined and is expempt from the two requirements in the law stated above.

And, yes, that country is the Israel. p-)

[Fat Lazy American]

The country that receives the most actuall receives more than All Other Countries Combined and is expempt from the two requirements in the law stated above.

Not even CLOSE to correct. "All other countries combined" receive 10 times as much foreign aid as Israel.

Just a straight lie.

[NimDod]

The country that receives the most actuall receives more than All Other Countries Combined and is expempt from the two requirements in the law stated above.

And, yes, that country is the Israel. p-)

oh really?



WASHINGTON - The United States Congress budget committee has approved the US foreign aid budget for 2007 of USD 21.3 billion. The budget includes aid for Israel (USD 2.4 billion) and Egypt (USD 1.7 billion).

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3255291,00.html

[gilgoul]

Yeah...well then they seriously need to edumacate themselves...our government will support you now pull your head out and worry about real problems.
Like what?
The fact that PA policemen receive military instruction, training and weapons from the USA and EU?
The fact that those "policemen" receive training in rpg manipulation ( very usefull for crowd dispersal)
Or the fact that the PA locals, salaries, formation, education (that would be deemed hate speech by any court) are all paid for by USA and UE, thus freeing the PA from the task of governing?
Or what would be our worry about a PA that received billions but aren't in any way able to built a minister, a theater, or simply a waste water treatment plant, so that the waters flowing in Israel are now heavily polluted from the source even?

Obama may be a temporary problem, but if we are to survive, we need to be very clear to everybody: no diktat is acceptable, and no concession that is not met by another concession from the other side can be accepted

[RoyB]

Another 3 Billion dollar check form the sheeple taxpayers of the U.S. like they get every year.

Remember, by U.S. law ALL nations that get foreign aid 1.) must show the U.S. in writing where it goes and 2.) receive it in quarterly installments.

The country that receives the most actuall receives more than All Other Countries Combined and is expempt from the two requirements in the law stated above.

And, yes, that country is the Israel. p-)
What a load of crap.

[marktigger]

Well if Turkey get into the EU Israel should be allowed as well!

[Connaught Ranger]

Well if Turkey get into the EU Israel should be allowed as well!

I believe being allowed to compete in the Eurovison Song Contest helps:p

[marktigger]

I believe being allowed to compete in the Eurovison Song Contest helps:p

It Bl**dy Shouldn't...should be automatic disqualifaction from any internation orginisation being in that!!!!
:o

[MichaelF]

Christian Zionism is way too much of a public force in the US for us to stab Israel in the back. If anything, the current stretch of sympathy for the Palestinians is an anomaly.

[BMUS]

Another 3 Billion dollar check form the sheeple taxpayers of the U.S. like they get every year.

Remember, by U.S. law ALL nations that get foreign aid 1.) must show the U.S. in writing where it goes and 2.) receive it in quarterly installments.

The country that receives the most actuall receives more than All Other Countries Combined and is expempt from the two requirements in the law stated above.

And, yes, that country is the Israel. p-)
Aye! I smella' de caca de torro ina' dis' thread, ay caramba!

[Karaahmetoglu]

Yes, but Poland seems to be a strong supporter of Israel in Europe, contrary to Germany and many other states, esp. those who host big Muslim minorities.


Yeah all Muslims hate Israel. :roll::roll:

I understand a lot of Muslims do hate Israel, but I don't!

[Derfeuermann]

Why would any other country bother to replace USA to support Israel?
It is worth the effort?
AFAIK Israel is already selling its technology to China so they don't need to replace USA.
so Israel has USA, and USA only.
Europeans? Do you really think that Eurowussies would be eager to fight and die for Israelis or give them what they already don't have?
No.
so stick to "Amerikka" fellas, Thank God for USA actually.

[Estopped]

America is irreplaceable. That's why Israel should be careful what the US thinks because there is no way that once they lose that support they'd get 3 billion dollars for free and all the political support in the world from the lieks of Russia or China. It simply isn't feasible.

[Fat Lazy American]

Why would any other country bother to replace USA to support Israel?
It is worth the effort?
AFAIK Israel is already selling its technology to China so they don't need to replace USA.
so Israel has USA, and USA only.
Europeans? Do you really think that Eurowussies would be eager to fight and die for Israelis or give them what they already don't have?
No.
so stick to "Amerikka" fellas, Thank God for USA actually.

They sell very little technology to China and very rarely (and, AFAIK, not lately). Israel is fairly effectively limited by the U.S. as to where it can and does sell its weapons technology. When Israel has sold to China, it's generally been not for money but as an implied threat when the U.S. has stopped shipping things to Israel or pushing too hard diplomatically. (You say I can't sell this to China because if I do, you won't sell me that. Well, if you're not going to send me that anyway, I may as well send China this! Watch, I'll start to do it!)

India is a more likely strategic ally to Israel (actually, it pretty much already is one) to "replace" the U.S. India wouldn't ever be the same vocal supporter of Israel at the UN and diplomatically as the U.S, though. Closer ties with India do limit Israel's ability to deal with the Chinese as much as close ties with the U.S. do. China is still, of course, the pariah state's presumed partner of last resort. But a break with the U.S. wouldn't exactly put Israel in Burma or North Korea's shoes.

And, of course, the Germans continue to help fund and support Israel, Eurowussie or not, and probably will for some time.

It's all academic, though. Obama can pressure Netanyahu all he wants, right wing Israelis can huff and puff about Obama being the worst thing since James "F--k" the Jews" Baker. But the first Bush administration didn't come close to actually cutting off Israel and neither will Obama. It's all kabuki.

[NimDod]

Do you really think that Eurowussies would be eager to fight and die for Israelis


when was it that an American fought and died for Israel exactly?

[Connaught Ranger]

Why would any other country bother to replace USA to support Israel?
It is worth the effort?
AFAIK Israel is already selling its technology to China so they don't need to replace USA.
so Israel has USA, and USA only.
Europeans? Do you really think that Eurowussies would be eager to fight and die for Israelis or give them what they already don't have?
No.
so stick to "Amerikka" fellas, Thank God for USA actually.

What an enlightened and intelligent 3rd post :cantbeli:

[Kippari]

Well, I for one don't believe that some European countries would Israel fall to the marauding Arabs. Near-East has always been considered kind of a backyard to the Europe. Israel is also a very important technology and arms provider for Europe. Hard political pressure would be put against those who are about to conquer the holy lands. Even though Europe is nowadays largely atheistic, they still have strong sense of history and most of all, hard stuck christian values. There would be shyteload of volunteers if the Pope would scream bloody murder and call for crusades. That's just my observation about the several different European peoples though. Kinda scary too as I myself am a very irreligious person.

[Derfeuermann]

India is a more likely strategic ally to Israel (actually, it pretty much already is one) to "replace" the U.S. India wouldn't ever be the same vocal supporter of Israel at the UN and diplomatically as the U.S, though. Closer ties with India do limit Israel's ability to deal with the Chinese as much as close ties with the U.S. do. China is still, of course, the pariah state's presumed partner of last resort. But a break with the U.S. wouldn't exactly put Israel in Burma or North Korea's shoes.


What the **** is India or Germany in comparison to USA? I mean come on.
If Israel was attacked or sthg. USA will have the balls and capabilities to intervene, China and India are too far, European defence structure is too lame.
so Israel better stick to USA, it is the only chance you guys have down there, in that ****ty neighborhood.

Connaught Ranger:: It may be my third post but what was wrong in it? I guess Eurowussie thing, but you know what I mean and you know that I am right. Europeans put all together still would not have the capabilities US has.
Europe as it is today is a military dwarf.

[Connaught Ranger]

What the **** is India or Germany in comparison to USA? I mean come on.
If Israel was attacked or sthg. USA will have the balls and capabilities to intervene, China and India are too far, European defence structure is too lame.
so Israel better stick to USA, it is the only chance you guys have down there, in that ****ty neighborhood.

Connaught Ranger:: It may be my third post but what was wrong in it? I guess Eurowussie thing, but you know what I mean and you know that I am right. Europeans put all together still would not have the capabilities US has. Europe as it is today is a military dwarf.

Dream on dude :roll: Last time I checked the U.K. were in the thick of it in Iraq and Afghanistan along with many other NATO countries as well as contributions from many other in the E.U.

[Ritual]

when was it that an American fought and died for Israel exactly?

Mickey Marcus might have something to say about that, among others.

*By the way, you're a pompous prick.

[Fat Lazy American]

What the **** is India or Germany in comparison to USA? I mean come on.
If Israel was attacked or sthg. USA will have the balls and capabilities to intervene, China and India are too far, European defence structure is too lame.
so Israel better stick to USA, it is the only chance you guys have down there, in that ****ty neighborhood.

Connaught Ranger:: It may be my third post but what was wrong in it? I guess Eurowussie thing, but you know what I mean and you know that I am right. Europeans put all together still would not have the capabilities US has.
Europe as it is today is a military dwarf.

You're the uninformed sort who believes that the only thing holding back the successful Arab invasion is the threat of direct American intervention, aren't you? Israel didn't become the dominant military power in the region because the USAF bombed their enemies or because the Marines landed to save the day.

The U.S. became an ally of Israel after it became the dominant military power in the region. Read some history.

And yes, India (at this point in time, at least, in the near future, who knows) couldn't successfully mount a resupply campaign like Operation Nickel Grass. But for one, Israel has since built stockpiles that would obviate such an operation in the face of a similar assault. And there are other, slower channels of resupply that a supporting power other than the U.S. could use. And for another, Israel is very defensively oriented. While its true that recent wars have put it on the offensive and the doctrine of air supremacy is primary, even without these, you couldn't imagine the meat grinder an invading Arab army would be forced into on the streets of Jerusalem and the road to Tel Aviv.

There's a reason Arab opposition to Israel has been reduced to terrorism and asymmetric warfare. And while American weapons technology is a part of that, Arab armies have borne the brunt of Israeli victories with mostly smuggled Czechoslovakian weapons, with British and French weapons, with French weapons, and with mostly American weapons.

Now, perhaps in a world where the U.S. not only cuts off Israel but continues to support, supply and arm Arab armies as they invade Israel with the intent of bringing about its destruction, they'd get somewhere.

But that's another question entirely. Is Israel dependent on American support for survival? No. It helps, but it's not necessary.

But could America destroy Israel if it so wished? Of course. The same goes for most nation-states.

And, as for your "Eurowussies" comment, most European militaries are VASTLY superior to any and all Arab militaries. Even the oil-rich Arab countries that have lots of shiny American and European weapons. Actually, ESPECIALLY the oil-rich Arab countries that have lots of shiny American and European weapons.

[Connaught Ranger]

I nominate we have the line:-

"Numbah Wan Team USA Fan Boy"

added to Derfeurmann's avatar.For his thoughtful, Intelligent, additions to this post.

He probably thinks "N.A.T.O." stands for "North American Treaty Organization".p-)

Connaught Ranger

[Derfeuermann]

I nominate we have the line:-

"Numbah Wan Team USA Fan Boy"

added to Derfeurmann's avatar.For his thoughtful, Intelligent, additions to this post.

He probably thinks "N.A.T.O." stands for "North American Treaty Organization".p-)

Connaught Ranger
haha
thanks for failing to offer a logical rebuttal to my position, which I would only too gladly change, provided that I was wrong.
NATO is not functioning as it may, which was also highlighted by the comments of its chief, Joop De Scheffer (spell?).
USA has been asking for increase in the troops deployed and the way these are supposed to be operating (read: combat roles), but it failed to yield the result it was expecting.
I did not belittle Euros, twas just in comparison to USA, that they are Eurowussies.
and so they shall remain.
UK may be an exception to the rule, but AFAIK they are not willing to be the new "ally" of Israel.
EDIT: If so deemed I may be OK with that line, looks good. with this addition ".., who despises Eurowussies"

[Derfeuermann]

You're the uninformed sort who believes that the only thing holding back the successful Arab invasion is the threat of direct American intervention, aren't you? Israel didn't become the dominant military power in the region because the USAF bombed their enemies or because the Marines landed to save the day.

I did not say that. You are reading into things which was not put that way at all.

The U.S. became an ally of Israel after it became the dominant military power in the region. Read some history.
Why? Until the end of the II world war there was the Empire. then came the dominance of the yankees, but 1948 is still after the world war.

And yes, India (at this point in time, at least, in the near future, who knows) couldn't successfully mount a resupply campaign like Operation Nickel Grass. But for one, Israel has since built stockpiles that would obviate such an operation in the face of a similar assault. And there are other, slower channels of resupply that a supporting power other than the U.S. could use. And for another, Israel is very defensively oriented. While its true that recent wars have put it on the offensive and the doctrine of air supremacy is primary, even without these, you couldn't imagine the meat grinder an invading Arab army would be forced into on the streets of Jerusalem and the road to Tel Aviv.
India is a 3. world country and has nothing to offer to Israelies except cannon-fodder?


But that's another question entirely. Is Israel dependent on American support for survival? No. It helps, but it's not necessary.
I am saying the same thing, DONT ASK FOR ANOTHER ALLY THEN

But could America destroy Israel if it so wished? Of course. The same goes for most nation-states.
AFAIK it is the Israelies here complaining about US politics. US should be loving Israel but problem occurs from the Israeli side, read the latest Israeli posts here, and you will notice all those cheap shots at Obama and his administration. I don't think USA is willing to substantially change its middleeast policies.

And, as for your "Eurowussies" comment, most European militaries are VASTLY superior to any and all Arab militaries. Irrelevant, don't care about Arabs at all
Even the oil-rich Arab countries that have lots of shiny American and European weapons. Actually, ESPECIALLY the oil-rich Arab countries that have lots of shiny American and European weapons. see above

.......................

[gilgoul]

Yeah...well then they seriously need to edumacate themselves...our government will support you now pull your head out and worry about real problems.

We have real problems, enough to take us a 100 years of true peace to solve them.
But right now, the "peace" everyone is talking about won't let us be here in another 100 years, or even 40 years.
As long as people that the "Palestinian problem" is a non issue, just a symbolic one, no peace can be achieved.
Want to solve the problem, look at where the money contributed to the PA goes.
Arafat didn't become 6th world fortune because he invented some cancer cure or computer OS.
I for having been a bad bad settler, and for serving more than regularly in the "sionazi occupation force", can testify that the school system there makes the hitler jungend look cute, and the level of degradation of the infrastructure in the PA controlled area absolutely disgracefull.
Let's get real here, out of the 360000 Israelis living in "settlements", more than the three quarter aren't going nowhere, because they live in neighborhoods contiguous to Israel.
So what should we do, relinquish the old city of Jerusalem?
Evacuate Hebron, that was ethnic cleansed of it's millenia old jewish population?
Destroy Ofra, that stands on a former British then Jordanian military camp?
Evacuate the Jordan valley, that provides us with an advanced defense line?
Do we want to take the risk of artillery and rockets in Tel Aviv? Or on Ben Gurion international airport?
We tend to forget, even in Israel, that this was the reality of Israel pre 1967, that Netanya was shelled by long tom guns fired from the vicinity of Tulkarem and Kalkilya.
And the experience haas showed us that every promise to check and control what the palestinians, the Hizbullah and all other groups in the area was only lip service.
I am quite sure that if the world was living us alone to deal directly with the palestinians and the arab world , we'd reach a much better agreement for all than whatever can be reached now.
We as a nation have been pretty inclined to make huge concessions in the name of peace, while we haven't witnessed any change of attitude among our neighboors, Jordan excepted, and in a very limited scale.
We witthdrew from south Lebanon, that BTW we never claimed for something else than a security buffer. The world "applauded" and then comdemned us when we had to react to hizbullaf agression.
We withdrew from Gaza, we got the same pat on the back, but were paralyzed mentaly and diplomaticelly to perform an operation that would render possible a change of path for the Gaza strip, while all in the world condemned us (funny, never heard the slightest condemnation of Sri Lanka's operation against the LTTE, 40000 dead and counting)

I am all for peace, but this peace has to be reached on both sides, and perpetually pressuring us for concessions that would lead to suicide if the arav world doesn't change it's rethorics and approach, is not going to work.
We aren't gettho jews no more.

[UoUo]

Derfeuermann

The USA become our biggest supporter AFTER six days war. when we kicked the crap out of Egept jordan and syria.

Anyway, i think people are making big exaggeration, US and Israel will stay Allies.
yes, obama bow down to a king that rule 1 of the most undemocratic nation in the world. but after all he whould understand that he is wrong.

[Zeev]

Yeah...well then they seriously need to edumacate themselves...our government will support you now pull your head out and worry about real problems.

And you, go visit israel and see how the israelis are educated enough.

This is the people's opinion, their free choice, and they don't need to be called "uneducated" because the results of the poll doesn't please you.

The fact that people have doubts about the person of Obama doesn't mean that they don't trust in the US anymore.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

haha
thanks for failing to offer a logical rebuttal to my position, which I would only too gladly change, provided that I was wrong.
NATO is not functioning as it may, which was also highlighted by the comments of its chief, Joop De Scheffer (spell?).
USA has been asking for increase in the troops deployed and the way these are supposed to be operating (read: combat roles), but it failed to yield the result it was expecting.
I did not belittle Euros, twas just in comparison to USA, that they are Eurowussies.
and so they shall remain.
UK may be an exception to the rule, but AFAIK they are not willing to be the new "ally" of Israel.
EDIT: If so deemed I may be OK with that line, looks good. with this addition ".., who despises Eurowussies"

Reading the fireman's posts is rather like the seeing the awakening of a neocon true believer who was put into suspended animation say 8 years ago and has just woken up - but not yet smelled the coffee :roll:

[Zeev]

We aren't gettho jews no more.

haha.. the rest of the world's problem precisely.

They cannot bear the fact that we're strong, that make them sick, because they used to murder and dominate our people in the past, and now, we're a military power that cannot be ignored.. Kinda disturbing for a lot of retards.

If israel wasn't a Jewish nation, you wouldn't heard so much of it all arround the world.

[Derfeuermann]

Reading the fireman's posts is rather like the seeing the awakening of a neocon true believer who was put into suspended animation say 8 years ago and has just woken up - but not yet smelled the coffee :roll:
haha thanks man
but what makes you believe that I am such a neocon?
I just wrote that USA is the number one military force in the world with no other substitute in sight. and that USA will keep on being an Israeli ally.
I don't think that will qualify me as the 2. coming of GWB.


(speaking of GWB, has he been elected the President?, you know I hate Al Gore.)

[CMNot]

USA has been asking for increase in the troops deployed and the way these are supposed to be operating (read: combat roles), but it failed to yield the result it was expecting.

I'd like to introduce a fairly interesting, and fairly important aspect to you: politics.

[Derfeuermann]

...which is continued as war, in times when it is necessary, according to Clausewitz-ian understanding of the term "war".
so
war=politics
Your readiness to fight (along with ur capabilities) belongs to the political equation.
so
what is your point?
edit: nice avatar

[CMNot]

what is your point?

You missed it. Domestic politicians fear the electorate punishing them for committing to much. Having pictures of your countrymen in coffins does nothing at the polls.

[Derfeuermann]

You missed it. Domestic politicians fear the electorate punishing them for committing to much. Having pictures of your countrymen in coffins does nothing at the polls.
yes I have definitely missed your point.
You are right, democracies are getting less and less belligerent, when it is about not-so-immediate national interests, like Afghanistan (or God forbid, one day Israel)
USA is not an exception to this rule (See Vietnam) but it endures more pain than its European allies, hence its bigger leverage.

[Player]

If israel wasn't a Jewish nation, you wouldn't heard so much of it all arround the world.

Bullshyt, quit playing the victim of the world, Jews aren't more special than any other nation, no matter how much you would want to believe it.

However I agree that Israel receives more media coverage, this is because of:

1. Conflicts.

2. Israel is seen as a "civilized" and often as a western country, thus the expectations from such a country are higher than from some third world shythole. Yes, these are double standards, but it's not because Israel is "Jewish", it's rather because Israel is culturally closer to Europe, and developed countries always receive more media attention.

[Zeev]

Jews aren't more special than any other nation

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, a great part of the world don't want to see us as a simple people like many others, and an other great part simply refuse our right to have a nation.

[gilgoul]

Bullshyt, quit playing the victim of the world, Jews aren't more special than any other nation, no matter how much you would want to believe it.

However I agree that Israel receives more media coverage, this is because of:

1. Conflicts.

2. Israel is seen as a "civilized" and often as a western country, thus the expectations from such a country are higher than from some third world shythole. Yes, these are double standards, but it's not because Israel is "Jewish", it's rather because Israel is culturally closer to Europe, and developed countries always receive more media attention.

<you are so naive it almost reminds me of my tender age.

1.-in more than 120 years of conflict, less people were killed, injured and displaced than in less than 5 years in Darfour, 10 years of Saddam Hussein dictatorship, not including his agression on Iran and Koweit or 6 years of conflict in the Balkans.

2.-RE-NAIVE:
The first ones to impose a double standard is ourselves, or more precisely the pseudo liberals among us, and there are many. Not that the others are all a bunch of racist ****s looking for a genocide, as would most Israeli media and academia make us think; they just say, if our ennemies want to play hardball, let's do it, and let them digest their failure completely.
The problem is that many among us suffer from a worrying cognitive dissonance, but if they dream so much of Europe, they are free to go, but not take down the country with them.

And about we not being more special than anyone else, no doubt about that, but we are simply still collectively and culturaly conditionned by the fear of "what will the others think of us", as if we were still living in the gettho or the mellah.

Last thing, if you think we are considered in the world, you should take a hard look in the poles, in the anti-israel activities in many campuses and in general public, no withstanding the UN and EU Bias.
Ask anybody in the streets of Paris, London, Copenhagen or even Seattle, and picture won't be that pretty.
The fact is the Palestinians have succeeded to impose their narrative while we were sleeping, and we have lost the media battle.

[klong]

<you are so naive it almost reminds me of my tender age.

1.-in more than 120 years of conflict, less people were killed, injured and displaced than in less than 5 years in Darfour, 10 years of Saddam Hussein dictatorship, not including his agression on Iran and Koweit or 6 years of conflict in the Balkans.

2.-RE-NAIVE:
The first ones to impose a double standard is ourselves, or more precisely the pseudo liberals among us, and there are many. Not that the others are all a bunch of racist ****s looking for a genocide, as would most Israeli media and academia make us think; they just say, if our ennemies want to play hardball, let's do it, and let them digest their failure completely.
The problem is that many among us suffer from a worrying cognitive dissonance, but if they dream so much of Europe, they are free to go, but not take down the country with them.

And about we not being more special than anyone else, no doubt about that, but we are simply still collectively and culturaly conditionned by the fear of "what will the others think of us", as if we were still living in the gettho or the mellah.

Last thing, if you think we are considered in the world, you should take a hard look in the poles, in the anti-israel activities in many campuses and in general public, no withstanding the UN and EU Bias.
Ask anybody in the streets of Paris, London, Copenhagen or even Seattle, and picture won't be that pretty.
The fact is the Palestinians have succeeded to impose their narrative while we were sleeping, and we have lost the media battle.


There should be no fear about "what others think about us". If you act responsibly, the question does not arise.

Most informed people, powers, nations want a viable and just peace in the Middle East. After approx 50 years of hot and cold wars, it has not been achieved.

Why not act responsibly now, and create this peace ? Israel is the key to this process, but the perception is that Israel still wants to keep the status quo, and still will do all to block a fair peace deal.

You claim that the Palestinians have, only now, succeeded in winning a press battle for their cause. Fact is, the status quo has been tolerated for many years, in the hope of positive results, which have just not occurred.

People get sick of this unnecessary state of affairs, and now want to push for a fair resolution.

Israel should listen hard to the White House at this time. Israel is like a very sleek and powerful fish. Only America can provide it with water to swim in.

[saturnin]

There should be no fear about "what others think about us". If you act responsibly, the question does not arise.

Most informed people, powers, nations want a viable and just peace in the Middle East. After approx 50 years of hot and cold wars, it has not been achieved.

Why not act responsibly now, and create this peace ? Israel is the key to this process, but the perception is that Israel still wants to keep the status quo, and still will do all to block a fair peace deal.

You claim that the Palestinians have, only now, succeeded in winning a press battle for their cause. Fact is, the status quo has been tolerated for many years, in the hope of positive results, which have just not occurred.

People get sick of this unnecessary state of affairs, and now want to push for a fair resolution.

Israel should listen hard to the White House at this time. Israel is like a very sleek and powerful fish. Only America can provide it with water to swim in.

I just want to be certain, do you mean your post serously?

[RoyB]

Why not act responsibly now, and create this peace ? Israel is the key to this process, but the perception is that Israel still wants to keep the status quo, and still will do all to block a fair peace deal.
You're right.
I guess that all the 'Palestinians divided to hundreds of different groups' and the all 'Palestinian terrorism' is not really an obstacle on our way to peace.

[Fat Lazy American]

I'd just like to point out that it's easy for a given "people" (as opposed to their armed representatives) to win the press war by fighting an asymmetric war, particularly with the naive folks at the BBC, ******* and Agence France-Presse (well, and al-Jazeera, who are not so naive) dominating the world discussion. It's almost become the point, of late. Destroying Israel (or evicting the crusader armies and installing a caliphate, or creating an independent homeland for Tamils on the island, or whatever) is the ultimate goal.

But the first step in that goal is to simply get the media and the "world community" on your side by provoking the enemy and taking cover with civilians, causing your own civilians to die, lose their homes and otherwise suffer. "Civilian suffering" is the only thing that matters to the media and the world community. Unfortunately, any real success in achieving your actual, ultimate goals would and does cause you to lose a lot of that support. For the simpletons at the BBC, Israeli civilians may be the victims of Hamas, but Palestinians are the much greater victims of the IDF. It never occurs to them that the suffering of Palestinians is the goal of Hamas, not the IDF. (Or the suffering of the Tamils was the goal of the LTTE, or the suffering of the Iraqis was the goal of al Qaeda in Iraq.)

Also, frankly, the fact that Israelis are Jews DOES make a difference. In liberal American and European circles, Jews specifically are not a protected class, unlike most other hated (by some) minority groups. They're white when it's bad to be white, but not white when it's good to be white. They can simultaneously be expected to uphold the (entirely fictional) norms of European polite warfare, while they can simultaneously be seen as barbaric savages. They're a racist European colony at the same time they're "defying international law" as written by Europeans.

[Zeev]

I'd just like to point out that it's easy for a given "people" (as opposed to their armed representatives) to win the press war by fighting an asymmetric war, particularly with the naive folks at the BBC, ******* and Agence France-Presse (well, and al-Jazeera, who are not so naive) dominating the world discussion. It's almost become the point, of late. Destroying Israel (or evicting the crusader armies and installing a caliphate, or creating an independent homeland for Tamils on the island, or whatever) is the ultimate goal.

But the first step in that goal is to simply get the media and the "world community" on your side by provoking the enemy and taking cover with civilians, causing your own civilians to die, lose their homes and otherwise suffer. "Civilian suffering" is the only thing that matters to the media and the world community. Unfortunately, any real success in achieving your actual, ultimate goals would and does cause you to lose a lot of that support. For the simpletons at the BBC, Israeli civilians may be the victims of Hamas, but Palestinians are the much greater victims of the IDF. It never occurs to them that the suffering of Palestinians is the goal of Hamas, not the IDF. (Or the suffering of the Tamils was the goal of the LTTE, or the suffering of the Iraqis was the goal of al Qaeda in Iraq.)

Also, frankly, the fact that Israelis are Jews DOES make a difference. In liberal American and European circles, Jews specifically are not a protected class, unlike most other hated (by some) minority groups. They're white when it's bad to be white, but not white when it's good to be white. They can simultaneously be expected to uphold the (entirely fictional) norms of European polite warfare, while they can simultaneously be seen as barbaric savages. They're a racist European colony at the same time they're "defying international law" as written by Europeans.

Very interesting analyse, I agree on many points, exept maybe with the systematic "white" nature of Jews.

Come to Israel and you'll see that all israelis are far to be so white :lol: p-)

[Fat Lazy American]

Very interesting analyse, I agree on many points, exept maybe with the systematic "white" nature of Jews.

Come to Israel and you'll see that all israelis are far to be so white :lol: p-)

To clarify:

To a racist white person, Jews are not to be considered white.

However:

To an "anti-racist" leftist college professor, Jews ARE to be considered white. To test this, (as an American Jew), go up to a leftist college professor and say "but I'm not the beneficiary of white privilege, I'm Jewish" and watch the seething explosion of rage.

Also note the title of Jimmy Carter's book, "Peace not Apartheid." Apartheid? Who's the whites? Who's the blacks?

It's become a rather common technique of the anti-Israel propaganda machine to compare Jews to whites and Arabs to blacks and refer to Arabs as "brown people" and consider Israelis "Europeans". It's actually been rather effective -- African American are very disproportionately "pro-Palestinian", especially among their educated elite.

[Moledet]

I'd just like to point out that it's easy for a given "people" (as opposed to their armed representatives) to win the press war by fighting an asymmetric war, particularly with the naive folks at the BBC, ******* and Agence France-Presse (well, and al-Jazeera, who are not so naive) dominating the world discussion. It's almost become the point, of late. Destroying Israel (or evicting the crusader armies and installing a caliphate, or creating an independent homeland for Tamils on the island, or whatever) is the ultimate goal.

But the first step in that goal is to simply get the media and the "world community" on your side by provoking the enemy and taking cover with civilians, causing your own civilians to die, lose their homes and otherwise suffer. "Civilian suffering" is the only thing that matters to the media and the world community. Unfortunately, any real success in achieving your actual, ultimate goals would and does cause you to lose a lot of that support. For the simpletons at the BBC, Israeli civilians may be the victims of Hamas, but Palestinians are the much greater victims of the IDF. It never occurs to them that the suffering of Palestinians is the goal of Hamas, not the IDF. (Or the suffering of the Tamils was the goal of the LTTE, or the suffering of the Iraqis was the goal of al Qaeda in Iraq.)

Also, frankly, the fact that Israelis are Jews DOES make a difference. In liberal American and European circles, Jews specifically are not a protected class, unlike most other hated (by some) minority groups. They're white when it's bad to be white, but not white when it's good to be white. They can simultaneously be expected to uphold the (entirely fictional) norms of European polite warfare, while they can simultaneously be seen as barbaric savages. They're a racist European colony at the same time they're "defying international law" as written by Europeans.
Thanks, spot on.

[gilgoul]

There should be no fear about "what others think about us". If you act responsibly, the question does not arise.

Most informed people, powers, nations want a viable and just peace in the Middle East. After approx 50 years of hot and cold wars, it has not been achieved.

Why not act responsibly now, and create this peace ? Israel is the key to this process, but the perception is that Israel still wants to keep the status quo, and still will do all to block a fair peace deal.

You claim that the Palestinians have, only now, succeeded in winning a press battle for their cause. Fact is, the status quo has been tolerated for many years, in the hope of positive results, which have just not occurred.

People get sick of this unnecessary state of affairs, and now want to push for a fair resolution.

Israel should listen hard to the White House at this time. Israel is like a very sleek and powerful fish. Only America can provide it with water to swim in.

So to resume your pov, **** Israel.
No mention in your contribution of the points I developed very succinctly.
All you want is quiet, not peace, no justice, no fair analysis.
all in all, me are the Czechoslovakia of 1938, "guys, we don't want a war, so please die quietly"
If this is the opinion of a majority, and I'm affraid it tends to become just that in many countries, especially in Europe, I'm affraid we in Israel should change radically our approach, take extreme actions to reach not a fair resolution but a middle to long term period of quiet.
And utterly destroy any organization or individuals breaking the quiet.
Is that a better solution?

[filochard]

Stopping colonization of the West bank won't mean the death of Israel. On the contrary that's a condition (necessary but not sufficient) for a long lasting peace.
Israel did not listened De Gaulle in 1966, they were proven right six days later but wrong on the long run since Israel did not reach yet its main strategic goal that is: be part of the landscape.
Israel would be wise not to do the same mistake this time and should listen the US. A little of humility does not hurt.

[klong]

So to resume your pov, **** Israel.
No mention in your contribution of the points I developed very succinctly.
All you want is quiet, not peace, no justice, no fair analysis.
all in all, me are the Czechoslovakia of 1938, "guys, we don't want a war, so please die quietly"
If this is the opinion of a majority, and I'm affraid it tends to become just that in many countries, especially in Europe, I'm affraid we in Israel should change radically our approach, take extreme actions to reach not a fair resolution but a middle to long term period of quiet.
And utterly destroy any organization or individuals breaking the quiet.
Is that a better solution?


I do not have an ulterior motive. Have now read your previous and detailed contribution. All fears mentioned would have to be addressed, and settled to the satisfaction of all sides, during a peace negotiation. There must be long term security for all sides. No question of any support for "die quietly", as you put it. Israel must remain a viable and peaceful nation, together with its neighbours.

[gilgoul]

I do not have an ulterior motive. Have now read your previous and detailed contribution. All fears mentioned would have to be addressed, and settled to the satisfaction of all sides, during a peace negotiation. There must be long term security for all sides. No question of any support for "die quietly", as you put it. Israel must remain a viable and peaceful nation, together with its neighbours.
Thing thar won't happen with being cut of the west bank, flooded by millions of "refugees" (funny how nobody ever mentions the plight of the jews from the arab world, in Maghreb and Mashrek, in less than 20 years, almost a million jews had to leave their possessions, and were integrated in Israel, we did'nt keep them in a "refugee" status for the sake of having a nice humanitarian crisis handy when support turns a bit floppy)

In general, I am very concerned by the general hypocrisy and the level of ignorance of the media and pseudo experts on the area.
Israel is expected to take a major gamble that could end up with it's destruction, while the Palestinians bask in some weird support that allows them to behave like spoiled kids but still be listened to like respectable adults.
People who sincerely want peace have first to understand that.
from being a "peace Now" liberal to the hard position I do hold today, I had to be confronted by a reality nobody can fathom, by the fact that I am too searched and humiliated everyday when I go to get a bear, to the supermarket, in the bus, entering the campus or about every thing I do, like another 75% of Israel's population living, working or travelling in the jewish areas.
Why not in the arab areas? Because there is no fear of being the target of terrorists there.
Have you noticed that the general arab behaviour towards Israel is still globally negative and rejectionnist, despite 2 peace treaties with majors arab states, despite the humaniatarian help provided by Israel's hospitals toward all inhabitants of the ME (even an Iranian kid not long ago)
The west presses Israel to make "concessions" because it knows it is easier to obtain anything from us rather than irredentist arabs whom final goal is the utter destruction of the Jewish state, and return the land to the Dar Al Islam.
And i asked, i beg to be prooved wrong.
So as I said before, if my National survival, thus my individual survival, the survival of my freedom, my sovereignty, my pride are at stake, I should make clear to the world that we can be a pain as much as our neighboors, and if we need to become hooligans, to be hated for a good reason instead of the fantasies of today, so be it, later generations of Israeli will then have the possibility to judge us. But the world jugement, I couldn't care about it right now, sorry, busy surviving.

[klong]

Thing thar won't happen with being cut of the west bank, flooded by millions of "refugees" (funny how nobody ever mentions the plight of the jews from the arab world, in Maghreb and Mashrek, in less than 20 years, almost a million jews had to leave their possessions, and were integrated in Israel, we did'nt keep them in a "refugee" status for the sake of having a nice humanitarian crisis handy when support turns a bit floppy)

In general, I am very concerned by the general hypocrisy and the level of ignorance of the media and pseudo experts on the area.
Israel is expected to take a major gamble that could end up with it's destruction, while the Palestinians bask in some weird support that allows them to behave like spoiled kids but still be listened to like respectable adults.
People who sincerely want peace have first to understand that.
from being a "peace Now" liberal to the hard position I do hold today, I had to be confronted by a reality nobody can fathom, by the fact that I am too searched and humiliated everyday when I go to get a bear, to the supermarket, in the bus, entering the campus or about every thing I do, like another 75% of Israel's population living, working or travelling in the jewish areas.
Why not in the arab areas? Because there is no fear of being the target of terrorists there.
Have you noticed that the general arab behaviour towards Israel is still globally negative and rejectionnist, despite 2 peace treaties with majors arab states, despite the humaniatarian help provided by Israel's hospitals toward all inhabitants of the ME (even an Iranian kid not long ago)
The west presses Israel to make "concessions" because it knows it is easier to obtain anything from us rather than irredentist arabs whom final goal is the utter destruction of the Jewish state, and return the land to the Dar Al Islam.
And i asked, i beg to be prooved wrong.
So as I said before, if my National survival, thus my individual survival, the survival of my freedom, my sovereignty, my pride are at stake, I should make clear to the world that we can be a pain as much as our neighboors, and if we need to become hooligans, to be hated for a good reason instead of the fantasies of today, so be it, later generations of Israeli will then have the possibility to judge us. But the world jugement, I couldn't care about it right now, sorry, busy surviving.


Very revealing message. The daily stress and anxiety of daily life in Israel is clearer to me now. You also very clearly fear that the existence of your country will be endangered by a peace deal.

Only you and your fellow citizens will decide whether to engage in a peace process, or not. I only try to give you my thoughts.

Still, as far as I'm informed, I would much rather live in Israel, than the West Bank or Gaza. The people there have a much tougher time. They also resent Israel in a way similar to how you resent them.

Both sides have never had the greatest blessing of my generation in the western world : peace (there have been wars, but the folks at home were generally not affected too much. None of my school or university colleagues died in wars. Maybe 0,05 % joined the army).

The idea of urging peace on the Middle East now, is to give the region the same blessing. Of course, any deal would have to give Israel iron clad military security, in the event of any arab reneg on the deal. The USA can assure this, I believe. Then, the Palestinians using massive foreign aid, could develop their economy to a similar level to that of Israel. In a relatively short time, economic parity is reached. This normally stops conflict. Where you have this equal opportunity (eg Malaysia, Singapore, USA), there normally is no problem left to bomb or kill about.

But, how to overcome the mutual animosity/mistrust. France and Germany did it. There is even peace now in the Balkans. Therefore. it's not impossible. I hope Iraelis and Arabs can jump over their shadow, and seriously try.

[paluka]

Very revealing message. The daily stress and anxiety of daily life in Israel is clearer to me now. You also very clearly fear that the existence of your country will be endangered by a peace deal.

Only you and your fellow citizens will decide whether to engage in a peace process, or not. I only try to give you my thoughts.

Still, as far as I'm informed, I would much rather live in Israel, than the West Bank or Gaza. The people there have a much tougher time. They also resent Israel in a way similar to how you resent them.

Both sides have never had the greatest blessing of my generation in the western world : peace (there have been wars, but the folks at home were generally not affected too much. None of my school or university colleagues died in wars. Maybe 0,05 % joined the army).

The idea of urging peace on the Middle East now, is to give the region the same blessing. Of course, any deal would have to give Israel iron clad military security, in the event of any Arab reneg on the deal. The USA can assure this, I believe. Then, the Palestinians using massive foreign aid, could develop their economy to a similar level to that of Israel. In a relatively short time, economic parity is reached. This normally stops conflict. Where you have this equal opportunity (eg Malaysia, Singapore, USA), there normally is no problem left to bomb or kill about.

But, how to overcome the mutual animosity/mistrust. France and Germany did it. There is even peace now in the Balkans. Therefore. it's not impossible. I hope Iraelis and Arabs can jump over their shadow, and seriously try.

What you forget to account for is that Palestinians live their lives like pigs because they choose to. Almost every Palestinian with half a brain cell figured out that Hamas don't care if all Palestinians die as long as they can fight Israel. They left. Those left behind have a genuine will to live in the bush and use all efforts to fight Israel. How long will people like you ignore the fact that Palestinians has been offered more than what they can handle in terms of land, state and welfare, but every time the treaties are signed and the money and promises starts rolling in all that happens is weapons being bought, tunnels being dugged etc. That is all they live for. Their plight, the big farce, is nothing more than psychological warfare with its sole purpose to indoctrinate Western media and public opinion.

Ask yourself why, after all the billions of foreign aid, is there still not even an inch of economics and social well being? What happens to all the money. One argument is that it takes a lot of money to buy all those weapons with which they always fight. After every engagement with Israel you will hear the Arab leaders pledging billions of dollars to rebuild that country as a seemingly step of solidarity towards Muslims. That is one of the biggest lies of modern history. That money is sponsored money for future wars with Israel, promised under the pretence of solidarity. Far more effective way of channeling money to a rogue state than smuggling it in through rogue bank accounts. Do It openly, who would suspect?

[klong]

What you forget to account for is that Palestinians live their lives like pigs because they choose to. Almost every Palestinian with half a brain cell figured out that Hamas don't care if all Palestinians die as long as they can fight Israel. They left. Those left behind have a genuine will to live in the bush and use all efforts to fight Israel. How long will people like you ignore the fact that Palestinians has been offered more than what they can handle in terms of land, state and welfare, but every time the treaties are signed and the money and promises starts rolling in all that happens is weapons being bought, tunnels being dugged etc. That is all they live for. Their plight, the big farce, is nothing more than psychological warfare with its sole purpose to indoctrinate Western media and public opinion.

Ask yourself why, after all the billions of foreign aid, is there still not even an inch of economics and social well being? What happens to all the money. One argument is that it takes a lot of money to buy all those weapons with which they always fight. After every engagement with Israel you will hear the Arab leaders pledging billions of dollars to rebuild that country as a seemingly step of solidarity towards Muslims. That is one of the biggest lies of modern history. That money is sponsored money for future wars with Israel, promised under the pretence of solidarity. Far more effective way of channeling money to a rogue state than smuggling it in through rogue bank accounts. Do It openly, who would suspect?


Tried my best, but can't seem to get through. Good luck. You will need a lot of it.

[Proudgrandson]

Doesn't Israel already have some form of alliance with Turkey?

Which I know would have nowhere the power of its alliance with the USA.

[LRPV]

Tried my best, but can't seem to get through. Good luck. You will need a lot of it.

While what was written was not artistic, erudite prose, I agree with the essential thrust of the post.

The Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank have been given opportunities to have a State. Unfortunately the politically bent Arabs insist on the Arab State (read Palestine) having a footprint that is inconveniently where Israel sits.

I can travel in the West Bank on my Aussie passport. Wandering around Ramallah and having coffee with locals was an insightful experience. Every woe was the fault of the Jews, not Israelis, the Jews. No sentence in moderation about the Palestinian Authority and it's internationally publicised corruption. Commerce was at village level. The people obviously wanted change but effective leadership was not on offer.

I relate to certain frustrated views, Israelis don't want the shackle of the 'unwanted Arabs'. Unfortunately until they are willing to accept what they have (80% + of British Mandate territory) they will not be satisfied.