US chilly on Japan's apology for WWII crimes

[ASAT]

Updated: 2009-06-01 09:36

SAN ANTONIO -- Japan's ambassador to the United States apologized Saturday on behalf of his country for the 65-mile (105-kilometer) forced walk of US troops and allies during World War II that left some 11,000 prisoners of war dead.

"As former prime ministers of Japan have repeatedly stated: The Japanese people should bear in mind that we must look into the past and to learn from the lessons of history," Ichiro Fujisaki said at the American Defenders of Bataan and Corregidor, the San Antonio Express-News reported.

He said his country was extending a heartfelt apology for "having caused tremendous damage and suffering to many people, including prisoners of war, those who have undergone tragic experiences."

Although Fujisaki received a standing ovation from about half of the 400 to 500 attendees, others said the apology was overdue and didn't seem sincere.

Former POW Hershel C. Boushey told the ambassador that he did not accept "your apology," and that the atrocities and mistreatment many suffered was severe.

In 1942, Japanese captors marched about 78,000 prisoners of war -- 12,000 Americans and 66,000 Filipinos -- for six days on the Philippine island of Luzon to a prisoner-of-war camp in what became known as the Bataan Death March. Many prisoners were denied food, water or medical care, and some were stabbed or beheaded.

As many as 11,000 prisoners died, according to the US Air Force.
Survivor Tony Montoya, of Woodland, California, also questioned Fujisaki's sincerity.

"This young man knows very little of the atrocities," Montoya said. "They probably rehearsed him on it."

Abie Abraham, of Renfrew, Pennsylvania, said it was time to move on.
"I was never one of those guys that worried about whether we got an apology or not," said Abraham, a 95-year-old vet.

"The way I look at it is, Japan is now our ally," Abraham said. "Why should we get an apology from them?"

Retired Tech Sgt. Joe Alexander, of San Antonio, said he was satisfied because "we finally got the apology that we wanted."

About 73 surviving Bataan Death March veterans of the Army and former Army Air Corps members attended the convention Saturday, which served as the march survivors' final reunion.
Link:http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2009-06/01/content_7958259.htm

[Scriptable]

Survivor Tony Montoya, of Woodland, California, also questioned Fujisaki's sincerity.

"This young man knows very little of the atrocities," Montoya said. "They probably rehearsed him on it."
Not to downplay this man's suffering, but its going to be difficult to get the actual perpetrators to apologize given that they were most likely executed after sentencing by the war crimes trials, or have died of old age.

[RxOnco]

At the same time...if you survived Bataan and had some diplomat giving you an apology 65 years later...you'd tell him to feck off too.

[toki]

At the same time...if you survived Bataan and had some diplomat giving you an apology 65 years later...you'd tell him to feck off too.

You say feck off to someone who wasn't alive and appologizes on behalf of his country and ancestors?

How many countries have offered official apologies of treatments of POWs in
various wars? How many countries have ever officially apologized for anything? Few.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

To me the apology seems pointless. It's been over 60 years. The men who made those decisions are dead. The government who backed them is gone. Japan is now one of our closest allies. I'd settle for simply recognizing that those atrocities did happen, so that they're not forgotten. How sincere can a 3rd or 4th hand apology really be?

[RxOnco]

You missed the point. I can take a token apology any day. However, I didn't suffer through the likes of Bataan. I was simply saying that had I endured the horror, I probably would care less what some politician said so many years later.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

To me the apology seems pointless. It's been over 60 years. The men who made those decisions are dead. The government who backed them is gone. Japan is now one of our closest allies. I'd settle for simply recognizing that those atrocities did happen, so that they're not forgotten. How sincere can a 3rd or 4th hand apology really be?

Exactly correct. I'm don't think the Japanese should have to apologize to us for the same reason I don't think I should have to apologize for interning the Japanese American during WWII.

[CMNot]

Something's better than nothing, right?

IIRC, we have old and bold vets who suffered horrendously at the hands of the Japanese who are still awaiting some form of apology. If it helps them finally reconcile the last pieces of their war, I can't see what harm will come of it.

Some money to heat their homes in winter would be nice, but you think their own Government could take of that for them.

[wasser]

I'd caution everyone to look at the source of this news: China Daily. After a quick google search I could find only Chinese related sites running this story. They have an agenda in this and are spinning it to be negative. The title states the US is "chilly on Japan's apology". Ummm...no disrespect to the men, but the last I checked the few surviving members of Bataan don't the US make. :p Also, they gloss over it quickly, but many of the survivors appear to have welcomed the apology. Heck even this article states that half the people reportedly gave it a standing ovation. That doesn't mean the other half rejected it. :p

Lastly, this is rather a complicated situation and I could not possibly fault any of these men their view. I knew a man who survived Bataan and the Mukden POW camp. I could easily imagine him blowing this apology off. However, I also knew him to not blame or hate Japanese people. In fact, the man visited Japan and one of the guards from the POW camp. But I know, if he saw General MacArthur, he would have strangled him to death. Even into his eighties I believe he could have. :p

[Hollis]

To me the apology seems pointless. It's been over 60 years. The men who made those decisions are dead. The government who backed them is gone. Japan is now one of our closest allies. I'd settle for simply recognizing that those atrocities did happen, so that they're not forgotten. How sincere can a 3rd or 4th hand apology really be?


I am with you, how can a person apologize for another person's actions. While it may be a sincere or "nice" gesture, it is from the wrong person at the wrong time.

[click]

Exactly correct. I'm don't think the Japanese should have to apologize to us for the same reason I don't think I should have to apologize for interning the Japanese American during WWII.

Agreed.

.....

[toki]

I am with you, how can a person apologize for another person's actions. While it may be a sincere or "nice" gesture, it is from the wrong person at the wrong time.

That's very theoretical and a bit off from reality. How could the "right" person appologize? Never, and it's not the point.

If it would be so easy, Poles and Germans would be fully reconciled. Read certain threads here and have in your mind that the average poster in those threads is between 18 and 30. You would think WW2 was 5 years ago. It affects people personally.

The sentiments carried by those people are passed from generation to generation.
And if Japan only now begins to acknowledge certain facts it's everything but pointless.

[click]

That's very theoretical and a bit off from reality. How could the "right" person appologize? Never, and it's not the point.

If it would be so easy, Poles and Germans would be fully reconciled. Read certain threads here and have in your mind that the average poster in those threads is between 18 and 30. You would think WW2 was 5 years ago.

The sentiments carried by those people are passed from generation to generation.
And if Japan only now begins to acknowledge certain facts it's everything but pointless.

Good point.

[Hollis]

That's very theoretical and a bit off from reality. How could the "right" person appologize? Never, and it's not the point.

.


I disagree with you. It is not theoretical. Maybe the meaning of a apology has lost it's meaning. If you want recognizing a past wrong, that is one thing. It is not a apology.

A apology is part of healing process for all concerned. It also has a impact on the wrong doer. For it to be sincere, the person has to realize they have harmed another, that they sincerely regret doing so, and that they hope not to do it again.

Part of a apology is to seek forgiveness from the victim.

Also if you read those threads, there is what else going on? Bringing people together/healing is not one of them. It tends to be nationalism being expressed in nationalistic fault finding. More a pecker measuring contest.


BTW, I did not say it was pointless. As 2 sheds mentions, it also adds to remembrance.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

All I'm thinkin' is that for an apology to mean anything, it's gotta come from the wrong-doer.

Not to go off topic, but I was raised Catholic, and Mrs_Jackson is of the tribe. One of the differences between our respective dogmas was that as Catholic I could text message my apology in to God via the priest at confession, whereas Jews have to go apologize directly to the actual person they wronged. Yikes, that's a tall order.

Anyhow - it's not like this is the first Japanese apology, right? Haven't they already fallen on their sword, so to speak, many times over by now?

[gilgoul]

A good thing to emphasize the point would be for Japan to put it's money where it's mouth is, and compensate the survivors or their families, because, even if it is blood money, it could help those who have been affected by this terrible experience.

[deagle]

its not literally sincere, b/c the fellow was too young or it seemed "rehearsed", but at least the gesture was there.

I guess all there is for japan is to apologize for other atrocities to other countries in asia.

[Bringer of Greater Things]

One war crime apologized for, fifty thousand to go!

[Narvaresearch]

A good thing to emphasize the point would be for Japan to put it's money where it's mouth is, and compensate the survivors or their families, because, even if it is blood money, it could help those who have been affected by this terrible experience.

Yeah, I don't think that should happen, but that is just me.:|

Sure it doesn't mean a whole lot from him, especially for those who had to be on the receiving end of such brutality, but it's one thing to just accept it and move on vs. openly being rude towards the ambassador.

Despite many peoples belief that the nuclear bomb was necessary, there are a few things in there we could apologize to multiple generations for.

EDIT: And if you want to look on the bright side the U.S POW's can be 'glad' the death rate was only 34-38%. On the Eastern front Russians held by Germans had a ~66% death rate, while Germans held by Russians had a ~80% death-rate. Okay 'glad' is not the right word here, but you get my idea. It's all pretty horrible.

[BlackJack22]

I seen a program on tv , Japan doesnt teach in their schools of their atrocities in WW2, they are taught the U.S. was the aggressor and not theirselves.The news crew reporting went on the streets of Tokyo and ask a teen girl did she know of Bataan death march and other atrocities, she looked at them like they were crazy.

[Narvaresearch]

I seen a program on tv , Japan doesnt teach in their schools of their atrocities in WW2, they are taught the U.S. was the aggressor and not theirselves.The news crew reporting went on the streets of Tokyo and ask a teen girl did she know of Bataan death march and other atrocities, she looked at them like they were crazy.

While their teaching is different, yes I think this example works towards showing stupidity of youth rather than Japanese teaching techniques. You could find some pretty stupid Americans who know nothing about the internments of Japanese during the war, the Japanese unit that fought bravely in the ETO etc. etc.

I think you are right though. The Germans teach World War II as a horrible act with that fact reinforced in the minds of German youth over-and-over again. Not the same in Japan.

[Scriptable]

A good thing to emphasize the point would be for Japan to put it's money where it's mouth is, and compensate the survivors or their families
People forget that Japan has already made trillions of dollars in payment, and also transferred over 2 trillion dollars in assets to allied nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Peace_with_Japan#Compensation_to_Allied_civilians_and_POWs). At some point it has to stop or you are effectively inflicting ongoing punishment on subsequent generations for the sins of their ancestors.



I guess all there is for japan is to apologize for other atrocities to other countries in asia.

Please see the long long list of apologies made by Japan on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan). Unfortunately no amount of apologies will be enough while there is political benefit to be gained by stirring up nationalistic hatred against Japan.

[Kit]

To me the apology seems pointless. It's been over 60 years. The men who made those decisions are dead. The government who backed them is gone. Japan is now one of our closest allies. I'd settle for simply recognizing that those atrocities did happen, so that they're not forgotten. How sincere can a 3rd or 4th hand apology really be?

This pretty much sums up how I feel about these apologies. Apologies don't seem to do anything. They don't cure the sick or graduate inner-city school children. They are pages of fancy words written by lawyers that say in a nutshell "Oops, our bad". Terrific. Way to dwell on the past. When I watch a Japanese game show, I'm not thinking about how those Japs massacred the Chinese, raped Korean women, and slaughtered American prisoners. It was awful, and there's an underlying general agreement that it was.

Also how old is the Japanese leadership? A majority of them were never even alive when WWII happened. If they were, they were in diapers. They have nothing to do with it. A general acknowledgment that they don't want to return to military dictatorship is enough for me.

[gilgoul]

People forget that Japan has already made trillions of dollars in payment, and also transferred over 2 trillion dollars in assets to allied nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Peace_with_Japan#Compensation_to_Allied_civilians_and_POWs). At some point it has to stop or you are effectively inflicting ongoing punishment on subsequent generations for the sins of their ancestors.



.

So my uneducated ass got served, I stand corrected in part.

[Ought Six]

The apology means different things in different societies. To the Japanese, apologizing for their nation and ancestors is a huge thing. To us, it does not mean too much. The message is lost in translation.

[BLackEroS]

A general acknowledgment that they don't want to return to military dictatorship is enough for me.

I like your point Kit.

It is undeniable that Japan has been pouring a lot of money in the countries once they occupied during the WWII.

But I have read about an article about the Japanese ODA contributions. Is it really contributed to the people from the country once they occupied?

These ODAs are designed to drive Japanese Economy. One Yen is back per every Three Yen of ODAs, to Japanese Government as various taxes levied on the Japanese International Corporations, upon which the Projects (by ODAs' assistance) are awarded.

It is a Win-Win programme, not just a Japanese one-sided-generousity to the third world people.

It contributed much more to the Japanese International Corporations.

[Holmes85]

I think the ongoing issue is not the apology, but the acknowledgment that it happened by not allowing the education system to actually cover the subjects. I mean most textbooks refer to the Nanjing massacre or Rape of Nanjing as the just the Nanjing incident, which doesn't bring awareness to that event to future generations within Japan.

[Connaught Ranger]

You say feck off to someone who wasn't alive and appologizes on behalf of his country and ancestors?

How many countries have offered official apologies of treatments of POWs in
various wars? How many countries have ever officially apologized for anything? Few.

You are missing the point here, Japan's ambassador to the United States apologized, which in itself is meaningless coming from a culture were "face" and position is everything, for an apology to have any real meaning or even be noticed in the Japanese culture it would have to come from the Japanese Prime Minister or the Royal family.

IMHO to equate the social position in which the Japan's ambassador to the United States apologized, for one event amongst hundreds of thousands its more akin to a waiter apologizing fpr having his finger in your soup bowl when delivered. p-)

Connaught Ranger.

[Holmes85]

Didn't think about it that way, but it makes sense.

[Jiggy]

couldn't really care tbh, japan has paid it's dues as well.

[Altavista]

It seems that U.S has something looks the same as China.
In the WWWII, Japanese army killed millions of Chinese, but the Japanese government doesnt apologize to Chinese sincerely too. Today, even in this forum, some of Japanese still want to disavow the history. I dont wanna disscuss anything with them.
I would say, thank you for your all Americans, your father, your grandfather, who attent the WWWII fight against the Japanese army, YOU SAVED OUR COUNTRY, AND WE WILL NEVER FORGETE IT.