effectivity of P.A.K guns for self defense?

[whiskey]

My dad gave me a week ago a Colt Government 1911A1 9mm P.A.K gun,
this one:
http://www.adventuretec.de/images/product_images/original_images/20049_0.jpg

it only fires blank rounds, but there is CS rounds available, too
my aks is, how effectiv could it be for self defense?

im sure there is at last the deterrence effect...

any experiences?

[JoaMei]

On the pro side, these pistols have better deterrence compared to other self defense tools. But they also have a higher escalation level because it could be misunderstood for a real gun. And they are nowhere as effective as a real one.

A good pepper spray (not the cheap) could be more effective (Ballistic pepper jet). And have more range. Gas pistols dont work very good in wind.

And remember, according to the new weapons law in germany you are only allowed to use it in your house. Its forbidden to carry it in the streets except you have a "kleiner Waffenschein" for it.

[baboon6]

I think they could be useful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.5_cm_PaK_40

This is what you're talking about right?

[whiskey]

haha, no, its definatly not :)

[James]

I think carrying a fake gun for self defense is a very bad idea.

[Jonah]

I think carrying a fake gun for self defense is a very bad idea.

Seconded.
If a gun is drawn in a self defence situation it is there to be used to stop you or you family being hurt. If you draw a pistol that only fires blanks or CS you only have one shot ( if he has not fled at the sight of it ) before your attacker realises that its not real and it may just escalate the situation.

Just my 2 pence worth.

[Dean1962]

You are in a bad situation. You pull that out. Other guy is out of range and/or you miss, and/or other guy realizes that this is not a firearm, and/or you hesitate in order to have maximum effect...
Other guy pulls out his weapon... and....

In all of these instances, the end of the scenario is the same. You are dead. If you need a weapon for self defense in Germany, either quit the gang, move to a better area or get a better job. This "weapon" is probably more dangerous to you than it is to someone else.

My two one-hundredths of a Canadian dollar.

[ed316]

Don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk.

[Cougar79]

non germans should know that it´s nearly impossible for civilians to get a permit for carrying "real" guns. The gun laws are very strict here in germany.
even for carrying those fake guns you need a permit.
In my personal opinion they aren´t very useful.

[whiskey]

a scenario happened to a friend of mine:

a crowd of about 15-20 poeple (he told me) has beaten the **** out of my friend, his brother, and 2 two guys i know... nobody knows the reason... (yes, such **** happens in munich/bavaria....)

question:
if someone of my friends would have carried such a gun, fires the first shot in the air (for deterrence), and then aims at the crowd....

would you think that work?

[TR1]

I think they could be useful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.5_cm_PaK_40

This is what you're talking about right?
Same though process, cheers!

[whiskey]

i love mp.net you guys are just t h e ****, yeah:):):):) __^

[Cougar79]

a scenario happened to a friend of mine:

a crowd of about 15-20 poeple (he told me) has beaten the **** out of my friend, his brother, and 2 two guys i know... nobody knows the reason... (yes, such **** happens in munich/bavaria....)

question:
if someone of my friends would carried such a gun, fires the first shot in the air (for deterrence), and then aims at the crowd....

would you think that work?

to this i would answer


If you need a weapon for self defense in Germany, either quit the gang, move to a better area or get a better job. This "weapon" is probably more dangerous to you than it is to someone else.


Firing a 9mm P.A.K. into a crowd could end up with someone getting seriously injured or killed. Thinking about a crowd i would more likely use a pepper spray/gel/foam or something like the jet protector.

Cougar79

[Hispeed1]

I think carrying a fake gun for self defense is a very bad idea.

Quoted for truth. You pull out your fake and if the other guy has a real one they're going to shoot you dead-then you'll have eternity to think about your question op.

[Cougar79]

Quoted for truth. You pull out your fake and if the other guy has a real one they're going to shoot you dead-then you'll have eternity to think about your question op.

Just want to point out that the incidents with "real" firearms are very very rare in germany. Sure there are always some hardcore criminals who carry real weapons - but i doubt that you end up getting shot by some ****** in munich.

[whiskey]

Quoted for truth. You pull out your fake and if the other guy has a real one they're going to shoot you dead-then you'll have eternity to think about your question op.

indeed true!
but, the chance to get in an argument with a guy, carries a real gun, is in germany about 1/1000, the guys i have trouble with are: ca. 20 years old, migration backround and not allowed to carry a gun
(i mostly get pissed off by them when i am skating)

[Hispeed1]

indeed true!
but, the chance to get in an argument with a guy, carries a real gun, is in germany about 1/1000, the guys i have trouble with are: ca. 20 years old, migration backround and not allowed to carry a gun
(i mostly get pissed off by them when i am skating)

True-but I sure wouldn't want to be that 1/1000 statistic.

[LineDoggie]

I think they could be useful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.5_cm_PaK_40

This is what you're talking about right? That was my first thought on seeing the title.

As to the PAK just make sure you dont pull it on someone with a GLOCK

[Laconian]

It's a bad idea.

[James]

Just want to point out that the incidents with "real" firearms are very very rare in germany. Sure there are always some hardcore criminals who carry real weapons - but i doubt that you end up getting shot by some ****** in munich.

Get a collapsible baton or some pepper spray. Carrying a fake gun is just stupid.

[LaoSexMachine]

Carrying a fake gun is just stupid.

X2. Learn to fight or something.

[whiskey]

i agree with you guys... youre definatly right...

so i just have to fight in worst case, is that the best solution, when everything else is didnt work?

and you just all think deterrence dosnt work?

[California Joe]

i agree with you guys... youre definatly right...

so i just have to fight in worst case, is that the best solution, when everything else is didnt work?

and you just all think deterrence dosnt work?

Only fight if you know how. Otherwise find a way to get the hell out of the situation. Running is good, running fast is better.

Bluffing when you're not holding any good cards is a bad idea.

[scrybe]

You guys have clearly not seen In Bruges.

[Dan2004]

You guys have clearly not seen In Bruges.

I have. Good flick.

If you can't carry an actual firearm; Get some good spray, a collapsible baton, or better yet, one of those collapsible stun batons. I got a Stun Master collapsible for my mother because she doesn't want to carry a gun. I do, because for me, spray or a stungun isn't an effective enough deterrent.

[Ought Six]

If you carry a fake gun, and pull it out in a bad situation, you may end up getting shot by a police officer approaching the scene. Also, if you pull out what appears to be a gun, and your attacker manages to kill you with some weapon or other, by having the 'gun' in your hand, you have handed him an excellent fraudlent self-defense case he can make in court. He will tell the court that he believed you were going to kill him. It might work.

[rhino]

if you lack situational awarness to a degree where you can find yourself cornered and outnumbered, then you are in a wrong part of a town, where a wrong crowd will cary a real gun and just found a self defence argument to shoot your ass down

[Jonah]

Only fight if you know how. Otherwise find a way to get the hell out of the situation. Running is good, running fast is better.

Bluffing when you're not holding any good cards is a bad idea.

I completly agree.
Whiskey, Violence should be a last resort.
There is no shame in running at all

[whiskey]

I completly agree.
Whiskey, Violence should be a last resort.
There is no shame in running at all

Fortunatly it doesnt happen that often, and i know how to fight, if i have to...
but running is mostly often the best solution
its not like there is an actual threatment on me or something like that, just wanted to know what you guys think about.
thank you guys!

(think im gonna buy a pepper spray)

[JoaMei]

X2. Learn to fight or something.

Bad Idea, those kids with migrant background never pick a fair fight. Its at least 3 vs. 1 or sometimes even 20 vs. 1.

And they dont get punished very hard or at all if caught by police.

whiskey, remember its illegal to carry a gas gun without "kleiner waffenschein".

I hate to say this but there isnt much you can do, and when you win the first fight..... the second one you wont.

[Cougar79]

If you carry a fake gun, and pull it out in a bad situation, you may end up getting shot by a police officer approaching the scene.

quoted for truth. Had this for myself on some occasions.

[gilgoul]

Get a collapsible baton or some pepper spray. Carrying a fake gun is just stupid.
True, and not true.
Don't forget that in Europe, gun culture is at the bottom, and as soon as something looking like a gun goes boom, you'll see many people run for it.
Also, bird shots are available for most of those, and at close range, they can bring serious injuries.
Still not a good idea to carry, but can be a decent deterrent to avoid contact.
In case of contact, nothing like a collapsible baton, but one needs to know how to use it, and if you use it effectively, you'll probably be charged with illegal weapon carry and illegal use of a deadly weapon anyway.

[whiskey]

Bad Idea, those kids with migrant background never pick a fair fight. Its at least 3 vs. 1 or sometimes even 20 vs. 1.

And they dont get punished very hard or at all if caught by police.

whiskey, remember its illegal to carry a gas gun without "kleiner waffenschein".

I hate to say this but there isnt much you can do, and when you win the first fight..... the second one you wont.

^ so true! ^

i already applied the permit for the "kleiner waffenschein"

[JCR]

A girl I know got herself one recently. Funny is that it came with blank cartridges and a silencer whose purpose seems kind of mutually exclusive to me. :)
On the other hand, she got it for defense against one person (not me ;)) only, not for self defense is migrant populated subway stations.