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Lazy Lob
06-15-2009, 04:03 PM
So Mr transparency has ordered a secret inquiry. Oh yes and a fvckin leopard will change its sodding spots.


Gordon Brown announces Iraq war inquiry
Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister, has announced an inquiry will be held into the Iraq War.

Published: 4:01PM BST 15 Jun 2009

It will be similar in scope and make-up to the Franks Inquiry that examined the Falklands conflict in 1982.
Mr Brown announced the move in a statement at the House of Commons on Monday afternoon saying the scope and length of the inquiry would be unprecedented.

The Prime Minister said the inquiry would begin after July and take around 12 months. It will be headed by Sir John Chilcot, a former Whitehall mandarin, and cover the period between 2001 and 2009.
"Now is the right time to learn the lessons of this conflict," said the Prime Minister.
Mr Brown said all secret documents would be made available but said hearings would be conducted in private with the committee reporting back to the House of Commons and House of Lords.
"No inquiry has ever been conducted over such a long period or in such breadth. We will not set out to apportion blame or find criminal or civil responsibility."
Mr Brown said that although the inquiry would not take evidence in public, its report would be published with only the "the most sensitive information" held back.
He said: "The primary objective of the committee will be to identify lessons learned. The committee will not set out to apportion blame or consider issues of civil or criminal liability."
Mr Brown added that a public inquiry would mean "lawyers, lawyers and lawyers" but people could feel free to give evidence to private sessions.
Tory leader David Cameron said there was a danger that people would think the inquiry was "fixed" because it would not report until after the next general election.
He said: "This inquiry should have started earlier. How can anyone argue that an inquiry starting six months ago would somehow have undermined British troops?
"Indeed the argument that you can't have an inquiry while troops are still in Iraq has been blown away by the Prime Minister saying today that some troops will be staying there even as the inquiry gets under way."
He called for Mr Brown to look at the possibility of publishing an interim report early next year.
There "has to be a question" about the military experience of the inquiry panel and Mr Cameron called for senior politicians to be involved to consider the political judgments that were made.
He told Mr Brown: "The inquiry needs to be and needs to be seen to be truly independent and not just an establishment stitch-up."
The Conservative leader also questioned why the inquiry would not be allowed to single out people for blame.
"Shouldn't the inquiry have the ability to apportion blame? If mistakes were made, we need to know who made them and why they were made."
He also questioned whether the inquiry would be allowed access to US and Iraqi documents and witnesses.
Mr Cameron called for greater transparency, asking: "Shouldn't there be some proper public sessions?
"Isn't that what many will want and many will expect and part of the building of public confidence that is absolutely necessary?"
Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg said: "I am staggered that the Prime Minister is seeking to compound the error, fatal to so many of Britain's sons and daughters, by covering up the path that led to it."
The move will be seen by some as an attempt by the Prime Minister to draw a line under the Iraq war, which has proved so divisive for Labour.
But many on the left of his party are unlikely to be satisfied with anything less than a full public inquiry into how Britain went to war despite questionable evidence that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.
Like the Franks Inquiry, which was overseen by privy counsellors, it will hear its evidence behind closed doors.
But Mr Brown, conscious of the accusations of a whitewash when Lord Hutton produced his 2004 report into the death of weapons inspector Dr David Kelly, will argue that the members of the inquiry team will be fully independent.
The remit of the inquiry will cover the build-up to the invasion in March 2003 and its aftermath.
Mr Brown has resisted calls for an inquiry until British troops returned from Iraq. But with almost all British troops out of Basra, there is no bar on the official investigation.
On Sunday night, Mr Brown was warned not to hold the inquiry behind closed doors.
Angus Robertson, the Scottish National Party leader at Westminster, said: "Gordon Brown is on a collision course if he thinks people will accept a secret inquiry."
Making the announcement Mr Brown also paid tribute to soldiers in Iraq.
"A young democracy has replaced a vicious 30-year-old dictatorship. Iraq's future is now in its own hands," he said.
"We can be supremely proud of the way our armed forces carried out their mission. Today we continue to mourn and remember the 179 men and women who gave their lives."
Protesters angry at the decision to hold the inquiry in secret gathered outside at Wetsminster.
Ben Beach, 19, an architecture student from east London, said: "We're here today because they have announced the inquiries will be in secret which I think is an affront to democracy in this country.
"And it's an affront to British democracy that this war went ahead despite the overwhelming majority of people being against it."
The inquiry announced by Brown "doesn't go far enough at all".
He added: "We need to know the real reasons the war happened."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/gordon-brown/5542414/Gordon-Brown-announces-Iraq-war-inquiry.html

Arfah
06-15-2009, 04:13 PM
FULL PUBLIC INQUIRY !

For its size, the UK secret services are supposed to be the most effective, yet they got it wrong on WMD's. Or did they ? Were they orchestrated by the government in order 'manipulate' the facts ?
Did Blair & Bush have a get together in Sept 2002 and agree to have the war just to get rid of Saddam's regime ?

A private inquiry ? Just what are they afraid of ? No WMD's were found but they said they had proof, so why the secrecy ?

Lazy Lob
06-15-2009, 04:18 PM
I'm sure President Mandelson will have the answer.

Arfah
06-15-2009, 04:19 PM
I'm sure President Mandelson will have the answer.

Oh Feck NO ! :cantbeli:

PUG
06-15-2009, 04:24 PM
Bend over.

Mr Gently Benevolent
06-15-2009, 04:24 PM
Whats this private inquiry going to achieve are they going to come to the conclusion that we cannot jump to every US presidents demands and lap up contrived and twisted intel.

Lazy Lob
06-15-2009, 04:26 PM
Bend over.

and Phil McCavity?

tea drinker
06-15-2009, 05:13 PM
Yeah, total h3ap of sh1t, some guy will probably hang himself and be blamed for everything. Waste of money and people's time.

A very ex Stab will be along soon to defend Brown.....
:-)

CMNot
06-15-2009, 05:22 PM
Come one guys, why so cynical?

We can trust in Herr Brown, he saved the world.

PUG
06-15-2009, 06:32 PM
Yeah, total h3ap of sh1t, some guy will probably hang himself and be blamed for everything. Waste of money and people's time.

A very ex Stab will be along soon to defend Brown.....
:-)

1 t0ta11y n0 ryt!!!1! l0l5

Panchito12
06-15-2009, 11:44 PM
Anything to divert the attention from the fact that he could not even get 20% of the vote and he lacks the support of even his own party. Mr Brown will try anything just as long as he can avoid calling for elections.

So why not have some witch hunt inquiry whose sole purpose is to dump all blame on the US, claim the Labor was douped, and that only he can save the UK.

oldsoak
06-16-2009, 02:53 AM
OK chaps - heres a scenario

Consider that UK intel regarding Iraq and Iran was poor due to vigorous counter-intelligence run by those governments. Not all Iraqi/Iranian agencies were run by buffoons. Would that affect the UK governments belief in the quality of data the UK int services could provide ?
Supposing your government and intelligence services wanted access to US eyes only in relation to Iraq and were given that in the run up to Telic ? What if that info was doctored to ensure that a particular point of view came accross ? What if the data provided swamped your intel to the point where the percieved ability of the nay-sayers to be right was questioned ?

Soldat_Américain
06-16-2009, 02:55 AM
Beer me...

CMNot
06-16-2009, 08:19 AM
A very ex Stab will be along soon to defend Brown.....

I think your reading comprehension may need calibrating.

Mr Gently Benevolent
06-16-2009, 04:38 PM
OK chaps - heres a scenario

Consider that UK intel regarding Iraq and Iran was poor due to vigorous counter-intelligence run by those governments. Not all Iraqi/Iranian agencies were run by buffoons. Would that affect the UK governments belief in the quality of data the UK int services could provide ?
Supposing your government and intelligence services wanted access to US eyes only in relation to Iraq and were given that in the run up to Telic ? What if that info was doctored to ensure that a particular point of view came accross ? What if the data provided swamped your intel to the point where the percieved ability of the nay-sayers to be right was questioned ?There is no doubt that the intel on Iraq provided to the UK was shaded in the darkest tones but they never really did themselves any favours cribbing a students essay on Iraqi WMD's and presenting it as fact.

CMNot
06-16-2009, 05:18 PM
It's no wonder they want us walking around with bio-metric ID cards and GPS transmitters in our cars. Helps fill in the gaps left by the inept.

Gerry301
06-16-2009, 08:23 PM
I think an inquiry is the right thing to do, since the military have been doing 'lessons learned' for years. 'Lessons learned' is needed so a new bunch of eggheads don't make the same mistakes, can have tremendous value. The problem is how to make it non-political. Politicians can mess up a soup sandwich.

Lazy Lob
06-17-2009, 02:09 AM
The problem here is that in all likelihood this was not a "mistake".

That is what Broon is trying to avoid. The mistake of letting the public know and that's why all the secrecy.

budgie
06-17-2009, 02:15 AM
closing the door after the horse has bolted...

CMNot
06-17-2009, 04:54 AM
The inquiry panel is also pretty lightweight, to boot.

Lazy Lob
06-17-2009, 07:25 AM
PMQ's on at present. I just can't watch the gulping git. Bullshyte flying all over the house.

CMNot
06-17-2009, 07:50 AM
In the letter, shadow home secretary Chris Grayling says one of his party's first acts, if it wins the next general election, would be to scrap the scheme.



He said he was urging the firms against large investments that may be wasted.
The government says ID cards, being trialled in Manchester from this autumn, will combat fraud, terrorism and organised crime.


A surprisingly decent thing to do, for politicians. Personelly I'd have let them go to the wall for aiding and abetting the theft of what little liberty we are actually allowed.


The mandarins are dumber and more detached than I thought if they actually think that organised crime syndicates won't have these measure beaten before they are even in place. The fundamental problem with reactionary strategy.

oldsoak
06-17-2009, 11:05 AM
There is no doubt that the intel on Iraq provided to the UK was shaded in the darkest tones but they never really did themselves any favours cribbing a students essay on Iraqi WMD's and presenting it as fact.

I remember that too - it rather says it all, incompetent tw*ts. Wasnt that "our" justification rather than that provided by the US or have I got that wrong ? If the best we could do was that, is it any wonder we got blinded by science ?
Having said that, seeing Saddam gurning at the end of a rope didnt bother me.

As for id cards - still cant see what the fuss is. The "police states" that are Scandinavia have 'em and I've carried an id card ever since I've had a job.

Gerry301
06-17-2009, 01:14 PM
The problem here is that in all likelihood this was not a "mistake".

That is what Broon is trying to avoid. The mistake of letting the public know and that's why all the secrecy.

I'm retired military and I know my experiences aren't everyones experiences, however when in the military when a "mistake" or event happened, the line of inquiry was mostly 'what happened?, how did it happen?, how can we prevent it from happening again?.'

After I retired and went into the business end of civilian life, mistakes followed a line of "who did it?, oh that idiot again, and then everyone walked away satisfied the problem was now solved." I watched this for years as it seemed to be the most common way for civilians to deal with problems.

I think a lessons learned would be a great tool for future leaders. However, I doubt civilian leadership is capable of changing their ways.

CMNot
06-17-2009, 01:33 PM
IIRC we also shipped that student essay over the pond as well. The feeding of ****ty intel went both ways.

Mr Gently Benevolent
06-17-2009, 05:12 PM
I remember that too - it rather says it all, incompetent tw*ts. Wasnt that "our" justification rather than that provided by the US or have I got that wrong ?They used both but when the cribbed story broke they pushed US Secret Squirrel stuff onto us. I worked alongside a former industrial chemist and ex RAF navigator who burst out laughing when he heard of the mobile WMD labs he reckoned at the time they were for fueling rockets though I think in the end their purpose was for some aerosonde.