Estonia – 5 Years Imprisonment For Criticizing Government – New Law Passed By Parliam

[Toomas]

Estonia – 5 Years Imprisonment For Criticizing Government – New Law Passed By Parliament
June 16, 2009 by Infowars Ireland

Indrek Saar - Social Democrats, Estonia.


www.rus.delfi.ee (Translated from Russian by Infowars Ireland)


ESTONIA – The Social Democratic party see an explicit threat to Democracy in a new Law passed by the
Estonian parliament, which makes criticism of government or organizing protests against government a criminal act.
The passing of the new law (on Monday 15th June), backed in the Estonian parliament by right-wingers and the Green party, allows punishment by imprisonment for a period of up to five years if a person is accused of making “calls to mass disorder”.

“It paints a curious and at the same time frightening picture: if, for example, trade unions organize a strike, which they then declare to be illegal, then it is qualified as mass disorders, and organizers can be sent to prison for five years “, notes the vice- chairman of the social-democratic party Indrek Saar.


Source: www.rus.delfi.ee

http://info-wars.org/?p=2941

[Toomas]

Welcome to Estonia

[muttbutt]

I can see a court case about the infringment of human rights happening.


PS I admire your patience, 4 1/2 years for your first post.


EDIT: infowars?.....slight agenda there me thinks.

[Bulletproof]

Wow! BS or no BS?

[Dexx]

This is a case of a real longtime lurker!

[Mr.K]

RussiaSTRONG Crew assemblep-)

[tommy00]

Just a political fight between gov. and opposition in this case....
And i like how social Democrats handle the case....:)....the law was created by ministery leaded by mr. Pihl, who's also a leader of soc dems, bud after the socialists were kicked out of the goverment,....they now start to fight with the law, created by themselfs.....

A and..."5 Years Imprisonment For Criticizing Government"....i call'it a lie......it allows up to five years' imprisonment to punish the person who is accused of call up into to a massive disorders....

[Toomas]

yes i now , i have lost my account:)

[Xaito]

RussiaSTRONG Crew assemblep-)

http://i42.tinypic.com/1zyau8l.jpg

[LineDoggie]

Hmmm, Infowars? Yeah I think I'll wait for a More reliable source, not saying your lying, but this could be spun.

[Toomas]

Just a political fight between gov. and opposition in this case....
And i like how social Democrats handle the case....:)....the law was created by ministery leaded by mr. Pihl, who's also a leader of soc dems, bud after the socialists were kicked out of the goverment,....they now start to fight with the law, created by themselfs.....

A and..."5 Years Imprisonment For Criticizing Government"....i call'it a lie......it allows up to five years' imprisonment to punish the person who is accused of call up into to a massive disorders....

Lie aha , Go to Toomea and try to criticize Ansip in 5 second you will be detained!
Estonia is not a democratic country we have no freedom of speech!

[kalkun]

Lie aha , Go to Toomea and try to criticize Ansip in 5 second you will be detained!
Estonia is not a democratic country we have no freedom of speech!

You need help...:roll:

[Toomas]

Hmmm, Infowars? Yeah I think I'll wait for a More reliable source, not saying your lying, but this could be spun.

Ha i am living in Estonia i was born here in that country and i told you this is not i lie!
And second i am not russian!

[ilmakas]

Lie aha , Go to Toomea and try to criticize Ansip in 5 second you will be detained!
Estonia is not a democratic country we have no freedom of speech!

wow, just wow. It seems that some patients from Wismari clinic have escaped ...

Mine tagasi delfisse omasuguste hulludega kommentaarima

[Toomas]

You need help...:roll:

No you need and you Ansip. Ütle mulle kas sa toetad meie ministrid ja mida nad praegu teevad!? Kas sina ka kardad venelasi?

[muttbutt]

Ha i am living in Estonia i was born here in that country and i told you this is not i lie!
And second i am not russian!
No one said you were Russian?

[Toomas]

[QUOTE=ilmakas;4206445]wow, just wow. It seems that some patients from Wismari clinic have escaped ...

Mine tagasi delfisse omasuguste hulludega kommentaarima.

Õige eesti mees:) Loll nagu lammas

[kalkun]

No you need and you Ansip. Ütle mulle kas sa toetad meie ministrid ja mida nad praegu teevad!? Kas sina ka kardad venelasi?

:lol:Kid gtfo, you lose your account and the first post you make is about BS.
And what you mean with your last question, do I fear Russians too? We have Estonian Russians on this board and they don't come to post some crap...

[sup_tech]

^ If you guys do it in English it will be more entertaining for the rest of us.

[ilmakas]

this is a international forum. no one gives a **** about political mudslinging in estonia nor about your dissatisfaction with our current premier. so crawl back to delfi...

[LineDoggie]

Ha i am living in Estonia i was born here in that country and i told you this is not i lie!
And second i am not russian! Now why mention Your not a Russian? I never said you were. I just dont trust your sources of Information you posted.

Methinks you doth protest too much laddy......

[LineDoggie]

I'm gonna predict this one lasts about 30 posts before it gets spanked

Any other predictions gents?

[kalkun]

Now why mention Your not a Russian? I never said you were. I just dont trust your sources of Information you posted.

Methinks you doth protest too much laddy......

Bloke asked me if I am afraid of Russians, wtf....

[Toomas]

No one said you were Russian?

I now that ! But its very nice to see how all Estonians here attacking me because of that that I do not agree with decisions of my state and prime minister ? I have told it is forbidden to criticize the coverment. I dot understand that ideology. :(

[kosse]

I now that ! But its very nice to see how all Estonians here attacking me because of that that I do not agree with decisions of my state and prime minister ? I have told it is forbidden to criticize the coverment. I dot understand that ideology. :(

Maybe because you post bull****?

[Toomas]

[QUOTE=kalkun;4206466]:lol:Kid gtfo, you lose your account and the first post you make is about BS.
And what you mean with your last question, do I fear Russians too? We have Estonian Russians on this board and they don't come to post some crap...[/QUO

This is not crap this is the real life!

[ilmakas]

I now that ! But its very nice to see how all Estonians here attacking me because of that that I do not agree with decisions of my state and prime minister ? I have told it is forbidden to criticize the coverment. I dot understand that ideology. :(

and how is it forbidden to criticize? what do you think opposition parties are doing all the time. All you hear from them is how much Ansip sucks, how Ansip is responsible for the world wide economic recession. There are tons of internet sites/forums (especially russian ones) with criticism, you know like in every other country in the west. The law you mention has nothing to do with free speech, it deals with organizing violent mass riots. The usual mass protest is not affected like yesterdays union strikes showed.

[kalkun]

This is the part from law:
§ 238 "Palju inimesi hõlmava korratuse organiseerimise või ettevalmistamise või sellises korratuses osalemisele üleskutsumise eest, millega võib kaasneda rüüstamine, purustamine, süütamine või muu selline tegevus, karistatakse rahalise karistuse või kuni viieaastase vangistusega."

Modified Google translation:
§ 238 "A disorder which includes lot of people in the organization-wide or for the preparation of or participation in such disorder to in charge, which may be accompanied by looting, destruction, arson, or other such activities, is punishable by a pecuniary punishment or up to five years' imprisonment."

imprisonment for criticizing government....NOT

Good night.

[muttbutt]

This is the part from law:
§ 238 "Palju inimesi hõlmava korratuse organiseerimise või ettevalmistamise või sellises korratuses osalemisele üleskutsumise eest, millega võib kaasneda rüüstamine, purustamine, süütamine või muu selline tegevus, karistatakse rahalise karistuse või kuni viieaastase vangistusega."

Modified Google translation:
§ 238 "A disorder which includes lot of people in the organization-wide or for the preparation of or participation in such disorder to in charge, which may be accompanied by looting, destruction, arson, or other such activities, is punishable by a pecuniary punishment or up to five years' imprisonment."

imprisonment for criticizing government....NOT

Good night.
Ah, so there would have to be violence or violent acts to go along with it, for the prison term?....that makes more sense now.

[saturnin]

This is the part from law:

Modified Google translation:
§ 238 "A disorder which includes lot of people in the organization-wide or for the preparation of or participation in such disorder to in charge, which may be accompanied by looting, destruction, arson, or other such activities, is punishable by a pecuniary punishment or up to five years' imprisonment."

imprisonment for criticizing government....NOT

Good night.

I would like to see precise english translation. (evil is in details and formulation...) But from what you posted it really doesn´t seem to be law which could be used to prevent critique of government and it doesn´t seem to be inconsisten with democratic rights.

[LineDoggie]

Frankly, it sounds like standard anti-rioting charges with added penalties for those who commit or incite Violence towards persons, property, etc.

Sounds like the Anarchist crowd is whining like bitches about this.

[JCR]

Problem is that law can be bent.
Basically any demonstration can go out of control, especially in times of crisis and EVEN if it is estonians who demonstrate (a people not normally known for their fiery temperament :D).
Of course google translation is a reference, but a law concerning public assembly with that many "may"s in it is not good at all.
If the translation is right, the paragraph does not punish the organisers of demonstrations where riots take place after the demonstration, but the organisers of demonstrations where there's a risk of damage to property before the demonstration takes place.
How the hell should any organiser of demonstrations ensure before the demonstration takes place that there is an absolute guarantee that no damage whatsoever is done?
Even perfectly harmless assemblies like carnival parades, school gradiation parties or flashmobs usually result in at least a little property damage.
This is impossible.
This sounds to me like a legal loophole to have leverage to basically punish anyone organising protests.

So there's three possible explanations:
- bad translation (likely)
- bad lawmaking (don't know if estonian politicians are worse than my own)
- attempt to curb basic rights by creating a general clause to punish anyone organising protests (likeliest)
Sounds almost iranian to me

[Xaito]

Frankly, it sounds like standard anti-rioting charges with added penalties for those who commit or incite Violence towards persons, property, etc.

Sounds like the Anarchist crowd is whining like bitches about this.

I don't think the creators of such laws had Anarchists in mind

[John1980]

Yeah next time when the RUSSIANS start some **** like with the whole statue thing, law like this will be most useful. But if its used to stamp on peoples democratic rights and as a weapon against legimate opposition (IE ESTONIAN) then its just friggin sad and should not be tolerated.

Cheers.

[Passing]

Word for word.

Original
"Palju inimesi hõlmava korratuse organiseerimise või ettevalmistamise või sellises korratuses osalemisele üleskutsumise eest, millega võib kaasneda rüüstamine, purustamine, süütamine või muu selline tegevus, karistatakse rahalise karistuse või kuni viieaastase vangistusega."

Translation
"Organizing or preparing or calling for participation in a disorder comprising of many people, which may be accompanied by looting, destruction of property, arson or similar activities, will (shall?) be punishable with a fine or a prison sentence of up to five years."
-----

Nothing to do with harassing the opposition or arresting union leaders. Despite what some would have you believe, Estonia is not a police state. More to the point, any law can be misused. For example, the UK used anti-terror laws to seize Iceland's assets.

[shingo_tln]

(woke up seconds ago)
Is it baaad being an entnical Russian here, in Estonia?..

As for the law - it can be bended. It is said, that a disorder, comprising of many people, which may be accompanied by looting, destruction of property, arson or similar activities
Personally, I don't like this "may be " part, it gives lots of possibilities to authorities for transforming normal, but unpleasant to Government demonstrations and meetings to disorder, in which case army and defence league should be used against the people. Any guy, bribed by political party, can throw a rock into shop window, grab some stuff, and there you go - disorder with looting, call for army...

[Eztyga]

Welcome back Comrade Stalin...

[Fallap]

Welcome back Stalinism.

[Jippo]

In reality Estonia simply cannot do anything that seriously limits basic rights to assemble etc... It is part of too many institutions in Europe (EU to start with) and the consequences would be to serious for Estonia. Simply impossible in modern Europe.

A lot of hot air, nothing else.

Infowar... :) need to think of a better cover.

[JCR]

The EU mostly turns a blind eye on the baltics anyway.
But basically yes, this is a potential EU basic rights lawsuit, and even russians could go to Strassburg because with an alien's passport you're not a real estonian, but you are a EU citizen, AFAIK.

The problem is, in law, you always have to look at a new law and ask yourself not wether it is suited for the stated purpose, but what the law allows the state to do if exploited to maximum effect.

[Kippari]

We totally should annex Estonia! They have gorgeous women and the language sounds like drunken oldtimer Finnish, so much it doubles the fun.p-)

[omghihi]

We totally should annex Estonia! They have gorgeous women and the language sounds like drunken oldtimer Finnish, so much it doubles the fun.p-)

I think a joint Finnish-Estonian state would be quite aces. you have better know-how on running a country and all that.

: )))))

[Kippari]

I think a joint Finnish-Estonian state would be quite aces. you have better know-how on running a country and all that.

: )))))


I for one welcome our industrious brothers in the south to join our country or form a union with us. Estonian would make heck of a better second language than Swedish.:)

[Spezz]

Yeah next time when the RUSSIANS start some **** like with the whole statue thing, law like this will be most useful. But if its used to stamp on peoples democratic rights and as a weapon against legimate opposition (IE ESTONIAN) then its just friggin sad and should not be tolerated.

Cheers.
So ethnic Russian Estonian citizens are not Estonian and are not legitimate opposition?

[Kippari]

So ethnic Russian Estonian citizens are not Estonian and are not legitimate opposition?

I think he referred to Estonians as in the citizens. There's a clamorous lot of ethnic Russians without citizenship.

[Codazo]

I think he referred to Estonians as in the citizens. There's a clamorous lot of ethnic Russians without citizenship.
ALIENS they are called, lots of them in democratic Estonia, it's realy hard to explain this to people here in Spain when you go to the bank or any other place where passport is needed, but now they can travel around EU without a visa and go to Russia without one ( something EU citezens can't do), I'm not sure if they need oone to go to US.

[shingo_tln]

it is not the question of how hard is it to learn Estonian language for Russian-speaking youth. The State itself does everything to stop russians taking Estonian citizenship, nobody needs 100000 voters for pro-russian political parties. But worst is the relation of local estonians: nothing changes for you, no matter if you are alien or Estonia citizen. Nobody cheers you up like "hey, now you are one of us, citizen of our country!" Russian still remains non-Estonian, nobody cares about you, nothing changes in relations with estonians. That is why people, who had passed obligatory state language school exams, do not go further to become Estonian citizen. It is sad, and should be disturbing to Government, but it is not.

[Blackbeard]

Probably he is neither russian or estonian. His estonian is also quite poor. Why to be upset?

[ilmakas]

it is not the question of how hard is it to learn Estonian language for Russian-speaking youth. The State itself does everything to stop russians taking Estonian citizenship, nobody needs 100000 voters for pro-russian political parties.

what are these active steps that the government takes to stop non-citizens become citizens?


But worst is the relation of local estonians: nothing changes for you, no matter if you are alien or Estonia citizen. Nobody cheers you up like "hey, now you are one of us, citizen of our country!" Russian still remains non-Estonian, nobody cares about you, nothing changes in relations with estonians.

this is a two way street, I'd say the attitude of local russians towards estonians is as negative. For every "tibla" there is as many "talaponcy" and "aborigeny" to be heard... As long we keep living in two parallel communities that dont interact with eachother except for work and business, situation will remain same.

[omghihi]

it is not the question of how hard is it to learn Estonian language for Russian-speaking youth. The State itself does everything to stop russians taking Estonian citizenship, nobody needs 100000 voters for pro-russian political parties. But worst is the relation of local estonians: nothing changes for you, no matter if you are alien or Estonia citizen. Nobody cheers you up like "hey, now you are one of us, citizen of our country!" Russian still remains non-Estonian, nobody cares about you, nothing changes in relations with estonians. That is why people, who had passed obligatory state language school exams, do not go further to become Estonian citizen. It is sad, and should be disturbing to Government, but it is not.

if they adopted estonian citizenship they would have to give away their right to travel freely in all three regions: Russia, CIS and whole EU (i.e. from then on need an expensive visa when it comes to Russia, naturally EU would still be open to them). and that matters most to the people living near the border because everything is cheaper on the russian side. as long as Russia requires no visas from non-citizens, they have no incentive to change their status.

people like Glebova, Budõlin, Balta, Anna Levandi, Tanja Mihhailova, old Šmigun - to name a few - sure have earned our respect. and so can most russians. I personally know two. but not by spitting on our country like klenski, linter, sirõk and whoever else there was, who went through with the kind of action that this law was meant to target.

its not the unified russian party Im personally worried about, more of the centre party. "grateful to Savisaar for responsible fiscal policy". *long and thorough facepalm*, etc.

slight edit: also, you should have seen the outcry by estonians who all dissed estonian skating federation for not supporting Glebova's protest at the skating championships in helsinki.

[shingo_tln]

what are these active steps that the government takes to stop non-citizens become citizens?



this is a two way street, I'd say the attitude of local russians towards estonians is as negative. For every "tibla" there is as many "talaponcy" and "aborigeny" to be heard... As long we keep living in two parallel communities that dont interact with eachother except for work and business, situation will remain same.

Simple: not doing what was promised. Lots of EU money were wasted on PHARE program, we still wait for those lingual programs to become free or less expensive. May be it is easy for you to spend 5K krons on first step cource of Estonian language, but couple of years ago that was exactly my month salary. There is no possibility for career growth without Estonian language, and life is expensive. No money for language => physical or low-qualification work => low salary = > no money for language... Circle is closed. Youngsters see how Government treat their parents.
And Ida-Virumaa - it is much easier to forget about people living there, than take steps to turn them from neighbouring Russia to Estonia. Totally pohhui, as we say.

I'm fully agree about two parallel worlds, but who is ready at the moment to unify theese worlds? Look at how media provides us with local news: if the crime is commited by Estonian, they say "man was detained", when by Russian - "Russian-speaking man was detained". Our hatery to each other is favourable to somebody in Estonia, I think, that communities should unite by themselves, without any political help - man by man. No politic can make it better - be it Savisaar, Laar, Velliste or Klenski.

[Blackbeard]

it is not the question of how hard is it to learn Estonian language for Russian-speaking youth. The State itself does everything to stop russians taking Estonian citizenship, nobody needs 100000 voters for pro-russian political parties.
......Que bono?

[shingo_tln]

......Que bono?
whaat? :-(

[omghihi]

I'm fully agree about two parallel worlds, but who is ready at the moment to unify theese worlds? Look at how media provides us with local news: if the crime is commited by Estonian, they say "man was detained", when by Russian - "Russian-speaking man was detained". Our hatery to each other is favourable to somebody in Estonia, I think, that communities should unite by themselves, without any political help - man by man. No politic can make it better - be it Savisaar, Laar, Velliste or Klenski.

that's odd, I thought it was the other way. now as I browse through last month's EPL crime reports - only one instance mentioning russians and that was in a context of being a citizen of Russia. they usually publish only the first name anyway, unless it's somebody well-known. I'm sure they would say "latvian-speaking man was detained", or "finnish-speaking" too, if those were the cases. going with "estonian-speaking" is unnecessary, which is kind of obvious anyway seeing as where we live.


assimilation will happen only if two groups communicate with eachother - attending same schools, workplaces, boyfriends/girlfriends coming from the other nationality and so on. helps pick up the languages too. However, I have big doubts about any "integration programs" on a state level, as there have been a few so far and hardly a triumphant success.

[shingo_tln]

I spoke about Delfi, which is much more yellow (and popular), than Postimees.
I don't see necessity to mark nation of the suspect or criminal, it gives to nazi-idiots more possibilities to name whole community as robbers, murderers or alcoholics. These small things create tension.
Assimilation is a bad thing. Were Estonians willing to lose national identity in Soviet time? Same thing with us. Every nation is unique, we should treat each other with respect, become frends, help each other without waiting, that Ivan will reborn to Juhan, or vice versa. Finns don't wait Finnish Swedes to become Finns, do they?

[omghihi]

I spoke about Delfi, which is much more yellow (and popular), than Postimees.
I don't see necessity to mark nation of the suspect or criminal, it gives to nazi-idiots more possibilities to name whole community as robbers, murderers or alcoholics. These small things create tension.
Assimilation is a bad thing. Were Estonians willing to lose national identity in Soviet time? Same thing with us. Every nation is unique, we should treat each other with respect, become frends, help each other without waiting, that Ivan will reborn to Juhan, or vice versa. Finns don't wait Finnish Swedes to become Finns, do they?

well I think we'll lose ours if there won't be any assimilation, or worse - if somehow there will be two official languages. and that would happen if we handed out passports to just anyone.

delfi the dumpster yeah. they should do something about it. I recall that rus.delfi.ee doesn't have any kinder news comments either.

[Blackbeard]

whaat? :-(.....Who benefits?

[shingo_tln]

.....Who benefits?
Right political parties

[Blackbeard]

Right political parties......Only?

[shingo_tln]

well I think we'll lose ours if there won't be any assimilation, or worse - if somehow there will be two official languages. and that would happen if we handed out passports to just anyone.

delfi the dumpster yeah. they should do something about it. I recall that rus.delfi.ee doesn't have any kinder news comments either.

You have laws, guarding your language and culture, you have Language dept., you have political will to guard your culture and language, what do you affraid of?
personally, I see no problem, that in Estonia you have to speak Estonian. I doubt that in some russian province with jewish minority, authorities speak both Jewish and Russian. No problemo. Just give us true possibilities to learn it, not only on paper, any help and encouragement would also be great to see or hear.
And both communities really should stop delve into bones of the fallen soldiers, let them rest in peace for God's sake.
Equal possibilities, equal care, and no need to create such ambiguous laws.

[shingo_tln]

......Only?
Your opinion?

[Blackbeard]

Your opinion?Maybe also those who gave them rights to travel in Russia and elsewhere without visas?

[shingo_tln]

Maybe also those who gave them rights to travel in Russia and elsewhere without visas?
I see who you pointing at. Nope. That's passive side of the problem. Russia just uses Estonia's reluctance in solving own problems in relations with so-caled russian-speaking minority. And this "hole" will be used as long as people have WILL to get ALIEN passports instead of Estonian citizenship. But this side of problem should be solved by Estonian authorities in connection with russian-speakers. It is the meaning of political will. As we see, there is no or very little will to integrate ca 100000 men, women and children into Estonian society with full rights, not only taxes.

[Blackbeard]

I see who you pointing at. Nope. That's passive side of the problem. Russia just uses Estonia's reluctance in solving own problems in relations with so-caled russian-speaking minority. And this "hole" will be used as long as people have WILL to get ALIEN passports instead of Estonian citizenship. But this side of problem should be solved by Estonian authorities in connection with russian-speakers. It is the meaning of political will. As we see, there is no or very little will to integrate ca 100000 men, women and children into Estonian society with full rights, not only taxes.Do you really think that Estonian ethnocracy isn´t purely in Kremlin´s interest? Why to put stakes on russian minotity if estonians can do much better job?

[shingo_tln]

why do they need them? what for?
"Aliens" can not be used as a reason for invasion (they are not Russian Federation citizens).
Even if so, than why estonians keep acting in Kremlin's way? To keep "nation holding together" enemy alive?
I thought, that we live in some sort of perverted democracy... Ethnocracy... This is how they name it now.

[Blackbeard]

why do they need them? what for?
"Aliens" can not be used as a reason for invasion (they are not Russian Federation citizens).
Even if so, than why estonians keep acting in Kremlin's way? To keep "nation holding together" enemy alive?
I thought, that we live in some sort of perverted democracy... Ethnocracy... This is how they name it now.
Estonia as independent country in some aspect can be much more useful for Russia than just part of Russia. Estonia belongs to about 180 international organizations. Hundreds officials attached to them abroad. Let´s assume that already in the 80´s there were over 30 000 active KGB collabortators among native Estonians. How many of them you can name me besides Herman Simm? This all is only my personal sick imagination but do you completely deny such possibility?

[John1980]

So ethnic Russian Estonian citizens are not Estonian and are not legitimate opposition?

Just look at it this way: the great majority of RUSSIANS that are in ESTONIA, are there as a result of criminal, almost genocidal colonial policies of USSR post 1945, like on so many other former "soviet republics" with RUSSIANS being moved in and natives being send to "Siberia", or where ever.

/Edit

Forgot my "point" but yeah, as far as im concerned, they are not legaly or rightfully there to begin with so, they are not "legimate".

Cheers.

[CPL Trevoga]

Just look at it this way: the great majority of RUSSIANS that are in ESTONIA, are there as a result of criminal, almost genocidal colonial policies of USSR post 1945, like on so many other former "soviet republics" with RUSSIANS being moved in and natives being send to "Siberia", or where ever.

/Edit

Forgot my "point" but yeah, as far as im concerned, they are not legaly or rightfully there to begin with so, they are not "legimate".

Cheers.


Moving people to war ravaged Estonia for rebuilding effort was not "criminal" and it showed commitment to Estonia.

My family moved to Belarus from Russia in 1945 to help rebuild it, as Belarus lost 25% of population during 4 years of war.

Your legal mambo-jambo is a bad example. If Stalin wanted to get rid of Estonians, he would have done so, as he did with Chechens and Crimean tatars.

[Breerman]

Estonia was invaded and occupied by Soviet Union and its people forced under Muscovite rule in a Communist system.

I hope this inprisonment case of a government critic is just an ugly remain from that era and that Estonia fix this because its unacceptable for an EU nation.

[shingo_tln]

Estonia was invaded and occupied by Soviet Union and its people forced under Muscovite rule in a Communist system.

I hope this inprisonment case of a government critic is just an ugly remain from that era and that Estonia fix this because its unacceptable for an EU nation.

I understand warm feelings to communism, but who could explain me, why russians are only one nation to blame in crimes of multinational regime, and why there are so many former, "repainted" communists in Estonian government? Nobody blame them, nobody take away their rights.

And please, do not use "Muscovite" word in relation to Russians. Middle ages are over. Or Poltava and Gangut still hurt your feelings?

[shingo_tln]

Just look at it this way: the great majority of RUSSIANS that are in ESTONIA, are there as a result of criminal, almost genocidal colonial policies of USSR post 1945, like on so many other former "soviet republics" with RUSSIANS being moved in and natives being send to "Siberia", or where ever.

/Edit

Forgot my "point" but yeah, as far as im concerned, they are not legaly or rightfully there to begin with so, they are not "legimate".

Cheers.

so, we are the lower class here, no matter if we are loyal citizens, or not. Did I understand you right?

[Xaito]

so, we are the lower class here, no matter if we are loyal citizens, or not. Did I understand you right?

no, I think he wanted to say something along the lines of "Estonia for Estonians!!!!" :roll:

[Spezz]

Just look at it this way: the great majority of RUSSIANS that are in ESTONIA, are there as a result of criminal, almost genocidal colonial policies of USSR post 1945, like on so many other former "soviet republics" with RUSSIANS being moved in and natives being send to "Siberia", or where ever.

/Edit

Forgot my "point" but yeah, as far as im concerned, they are not legaly or rightfully there to begin with so, they are not "legimate".

Cheers.
I'm sorry but that's a load of bullcrap, whatever you may think of the Soviet regime and even you blame everything bad happened during communist times on Russian's, which is stupid imho, the people that moved to Estonia are not to blame for anything, nor were they criminals and they lived, worked just like the rest of Estonians, they were just regular people.
Seeing that they are not to blame for the path of history and were born or lived in Estonia most of their lives, I really don't see how they can be treated as 2nd class or "not legitimate" as you call them. It's things like this that make the ethic Russian's feel like outcasts and being scrutinized, or dispised even and I can see why.

[TakeIt]

Just look at it this way: the great majority of RUSSIANS that are in ESTONIA, are there as a result of criminal, almost genocidal colonial policies of USSR post 1945Estonia was not a colony, so this is simple BS. Moving population within country is not a crime. If you want to paint it as a crime, than for example the system of "destination designation" after completing University in SU was criminal too. Not to mention that even in SU "son is not responcible for the deeds of father".


like on so many other former "soviet republics" with RUSSIANS being moved in and natives being send to "Siberia", or where ever.The percentage of those sent in relation to the whole contemporary population was insignificant. From Estonia in particular during 1940-1953 32,5k people were deported, which was ~3% from total post ww2 population. I don't think that criminals sent to different penitentiary institutions could be counted as victims, along with people, that on their own accord relocated to different parts of SU. Also, fraction of them(criminals too) returned later. So your statement is BS again.


Forgot my "point" but yeah, as far as im concerned, they are not legaly or rightfully there to begin with so, they are not "legimate". SU was a fully legitimate international entity with full range of institutions defining goverment and country including judicial. People within SU had different procedures regarding movement within contry in different years, but they had right to do so, Estonians included. So we can conclude that this statement can be considered BS too.

So what we have in the end? Yes - nothing of value. Only ignorance, nationalism and arrogance.

[Blackbeard]

I understand warm feelings to communism, but who could explain me, why russians are only one nation to blame in crimes of multinational regime, and why there are so many former, "repainted" communists in Estonian government? Nobody blame them, nobody take away their rights.

And please, do not use "Muscovite" word in relation to Russians. Middle ages are over. Or Poltava and Gangut still hurt your feelings?Here you have a point. Russians were the majority...the main tool of ideology. To blame the russians works well in west...they scare them. Who to blame then...Yidds? No you can´t, you will be called antisemite soon.

[CPL Trevoga]

Estonia was invaded and occupied by Soviet Union and its people forced under Muscovite rule in a Communist system.

I hope this inprisonment case of a government critic is just an ugly remain from that era and that Estonia fix this because its unacceptable for an EU nation.

Estonia was never under Moscovy. Territory thats now is Estonia was part of Sweden and only after Great Nothern War the territory in went to Imperial Russia. During that era Estonia received great autonomy and you could say it was beginning of Estonian state. Overall Russia was good to Estonia.

[omghihi]

Estonia was not a colony, so this is simple BS. Moving population within country is not a crime.
A.Oliveira Salazar didn't consider mozambique or angola colonies either, more as part of Portugal, but it didn't really work out like that. annexing a country doesn't just make it part of your country, so ner-ner-ner.


If you want to paint it as a crime, than for example the system of "destination designation" after completing University in SU was criminal too. Not to mention that even in SU "son is not responcible for the deeds of father".after reading Gulag Archipelago, I get the impression that was just the case. in fact, the whole family was responsible for any supposed crimes. whole families were sent away in cattle cars.


So what we have in the end? Yes - nothing of value. Only ignorance, nationalism and arrogance.well the general idea is that Estonia is a country for estonians to preserve our national identity. Russia already has 1/6 of the world anyway.

[shingo_tln]

well the general idea is that Estonia is a country for estonians to preserve our national identity. Russia already has 1/6 of the world anyway.

but what to do with Estonia SSR born people, like me? Send them back? But where - we were already born here, you can not send us anywhere, because you were also born under Soviet rule, same time with us.
In school we had estonian literature, "Kevad", "Sygis" by Luts, "Tasuja", "Kalevipoeg", and other pieces of estonian bélles-léttres and poetry were studied by us. So you gave us some point of view on your culture, and we respect that. But we want to explore our national traditions too, we do not want Estonians to become Russians, you do not have to read Russian authors like we do, so who is ruining your identity? Russians, or young Estonians, not connected to own culture and not interested in it? :roll:

[User_Name]

well the general idea is that Estonia is a country for estonians to preserve our national identity. Russia already has 1/6 of the world anyway.

Well this generall idea shows only how nationalistic the current society is, nothing more. So "Estonia for estonians" was the right discription of such thoughts, brown shi_t all over the place.

[omghihi]

but what to do with Estonia SSR born people, like me? Send them back? But where - we were already born here, you can not send us anywhere, because you were also born under Soviet rule, same time with us.

exactly, there is nowhere you'd go and there is nothing we can do about it, nor we would. we aren't exactly hot-headed mediterraneans. and athletes of russian origin do (and will do even more) great job bringing peoples together. even in footy.

purely hypothetical, but what if russian government will ever start causing same mess with ida-virumaa as they did with south ossetia? who would estonian russians side with then? if you recall, south ossetians weren't russian citizens to begin with either. but they still got their passports and there it went.



Well this generall idea shows only how nationalistic the current society is, nothing more. So "Estonia for estonians" was the right discription of such thoughts, brown shi_t all over the place.what do you have against nation states?

[Spezz]

purely hypothetical, but what if russian government will ever start causing same mess with ida-virumaa as they did with south ossetia? who would estonian russians side with then? if you recall, south ossetians weren't russian citizens to begin with either. but they still got their passports and there it went.

Ehmn what? No it's not how it went. It was caused by massive bloodshed twice in the last century between Georgians and S. Ossetians, not because Russia gave out passports. Even if not a single s. ossetian citizen had a Russian passport, Russia would still have to respond with force after its peace keepers got attacked and killed by Georgian regular army without a declaration of war.

So the only way the situation in Estonia may remotely become similar is if the Estionian governement trys to kill off ethnic Russians on a massive scale for some reason and then, yes they would pick Russian side, obviously and Russia probably would intervene. But that's understandable, right?
But such a thing would never happen.

[omghihi]

Ehmn what? No it's not how it went. It was caused by massive bloodshed twice in the last century between Georgians and S. Ossetians, not because Russia gave out passports. Even if not a single s. ossetian citizen had a Russian passport, Russia would still have to respond with force after its peace keepers got attacked and killed by Georgian regular army without a declaration of war.

I damn myself for bringing up the ossetia subject in the first place. I once clicked the georgian war thread and haven't been the same since. ;\

Under the aegis of protecting russian citizens, they moved in there. along with attacks on those peacekeepers or however you call them. the ossetians knew what was bound to come anyway, seeing as south ossetians were evacuating from their capital already on 4th of august.

*backs off slowly*

[Spezz]

I damn myself for bringing up the ossetia subject in the first place. I once clicked the georgian war thread and haven't been the same since. ;\

Under the aegis of protecting russian citizens, they moved in there. along with attacks on those peacekeepers or however you call them. the ossetians knew what was bound to come anyway, seeing as south ossetians were evacuating from their capital already on 4th of august.

*backs off slowly*
You don't need to back off slowly, I'm not gonna go Russia Strong!!!111one one you. But I do want the facts to be clear.
Why do you say "however you call them"? They are peacekeepers and they have been there since 1992 on an official OSCE mission, after the conflict broke out, long before Russia decided to give out passports. They weren't all put there real quick to be put as cannon fodder a week before August 8th knowing that Saakash would do something stupid.

[Kaapeli]

While I feel for the Estonians for their long struggle for independence and against oppression. I still believe that it would be better to give the Russian speaking population Estonian citizenship than to reject them.
Yes, they are a result of sometimes even forced USSR immigration but if they want to be Estonian and EU citizens then let them. After all Russia is a multiethnic nation itself that has deep finno-ugrian roots despite the dominating russian language.

[omghihi]

You don't need to back off slowly, I'm not gonna go Russia Strong!!!111one one you. But I do want the facts to be clear.
Why do you say "however you call them"? They are peacekeepers and they have been there since 1992 on an official OSCE mission, after the conflict broke out, long before Russia decided to give out passports. They weren't all put there real quick to be put as cannon fodder a week before August 8th knowing that Saakash would do something stupid.

they weren't keen enough to prevent shelling from the ossetian side days before georgians started bringing out grads. or maybe they weren't supposed to. that is all.

[Spezz]

they weren't keen enough to prevent shelling from the ossetian side days before georgians started bringing out grads. or maybe they weren't supposed to. that is all.
Maybe, like the rest of us, they didn't believe that Saaka was actually THAT stupid and ruthless to do such a thing.

[omghihi]

Maybe, like the rest of us, they didn't believe that Saaka was actually THAT stupid and ruthless to do such a thing.

I can think of at least one country that has regularly crossed the borders between countries to get rid of pesky terrs shooting into their territory - the terrs no-one else does anything about.

[eskachig]

I can think of at least one country that has regularly crossed the borders between countries to get rid of pesky terrs shooting into their territory - the terrs no-one else does anything about.We shouldn't go on this tangent in this thread, but cross border shelling was equally common from both sides in the runup to that particular conflict.

[Spezz]

I can think of at least one country that has regularly crossed the borders between countries to get rid of pesky terrs shooting into their territory - the terrs no-one else does anything about.
What country are you referring to and are you saying that ossetians are terrorists? Who the entire city of Tskhinvalli? Because grad missiles can't tell the difference. Border clashes came from both sides.

[Blackbeard]

Why to turn now this estonian thread into georgian?

If Saakashvili wanted to make a gift and give away South Ossetia and Abkhazia so its free will of georgians. They elected him! If Ilves wants to make a gift and give away Ida-Virumaa so it´s free will of estonians because they also elected him! Finally it´s all about democracy!

[asch]

it would be good if mods decide to treat Georgian-SO-Russian bull**** threads as Balkan flamewar ones.
on topic, please, it's enough of such garbage in other threads already.

[tommy00]

if they want to be Estonian and EU citizens then let them.

Don't get you here. If someone want to be Estonian citizen, then he have to apply it. Our law of citizenship is not that hard.....And theres gov. propaganda going on, that people would choose Estonian passport, insted of something different.
I think that majoroty of thouse...."Soviet-time"...folks just wait that someone(government) should just come and solve all their problems,...tell them what to do, what choises to make...
It sort of a main big difference between estonians and russians here,,russians beeing much more state-oriented folks, expecting bigger government involmnent into peoples lifes and so on,...while estonians are way more individiualistic, don't like gov. to much interfering into peoples everyday life.....So is a state they created...
So a ges it's hard for folks coming from Soviet sociaty where gov. decided everything, make their life in a country where it is not so..

but what to do with Estonia SSR born people, like me?
Can't you then make your own decisions, what to do with your life, make your own choises. No one will come and tell that to you....

[Xaito]

So a ges it's hard for folks coming from Soviet sociaty where gov. decided everything, make their life in a country where it is not so..

I don't buy that.
I'm very sure it's just your imagination based on prejudices.

[Red_Rage]

I don't buy that.
I'm very sure it's just your imagination based on prejudices.



Seconded. That was pure BS.

While Russians everywhere share a dislike and cynical distrust for any authority figures, and in Estonia they magically want to be controlled and "told what to do" by a Communist Hive mind - RIIIGHT.... :roll:

[tommy00]

While Russians everywhere share a dislike and cynical distrust for any authority figures, and in Estonia they magically want to be controlled and "told what to do" by a Communist Hive mind - RIIIGHT.... :roll:

Oh, i belive they share a dislike and cynical distrust for any authority figures,.....as long as they live in abroad......
Or you claim that they share a dislike and cynical distrust to a Putins regime in Russia to..???

[Xaito]

Oh, i belive they share a dislike and cynical distrust for any authority figures,.....as long as they live in abroad......
Or you claim that they share a dislike and cynical distrust to a Putins regime in Russia to..???

"Putin's regime" usually doesn't tell the average citizen how to live and what to do.
When it did for example by trying to prevent car imports in the far east they've gone out on the street to protest.

[Spezz]

it would be good if mods decide to treat Georgian-SO-Russian bull**** threads as Balkan flamewar ones.
on topic, please, it's enough of such garbage in other threads already.
Actually the discussion of that topic has remained quite civil in this thread, so hush.

[Red_Rage]

Oh, i belive they share a dislike and cynical distrust for any authority figures,.....as long as they live in abroad......
Or you claim that they share a dislike and cynical distrust to a Putins regime in Russia to..???


I think you got it all mixed up. Excessive fanboism in an expat trait.

[John1980]

Estonia was not a colony, so this is simple BS. Moving population within country is not a crime.
Estonia was a independent nation, with its own people, VERY DIFFERENT FROM SLAVS.. until Europe was devided between you nazis and communist, and communists occupied the nation and started to murder and deport people. And yes, it is a crime to forcibly move people of nation you have occupied to the other side of the planet, even if "only" 3% of the population as you claim, and in return colonialize their tiny nation by sending in hundreds of thousands of settlers and military troops.
So yes, its not right, and the russians have no place there, no matter what you revisionist stalin huggers say.

Cheers.

[AlexMartin2]

Estonia was a independent nation, with its own people, VERY DIFFERENT FROM SLAVS.. until Europe was devided between you nazis and communist, and communists occupied the nation and started to murder and deport people. And yes, it is a crime to forcibly move people of nation you have occupied to the other side of the planet, even if "only" 3% of the population as you claim, and in return colonialize their tiny nation by sending in hundreds of thousands of settlers and military troops.
So yes, its not right, and the russians have no place there, no matter what you revisionist stalin huggers say.

Cheers.

Incredible stupidity.

Did you know, that Baltic states were part of Russian Empire for many years before 1917 revolution? Did you know that many Baltic cities was founded by Russians, and had native Russian names before their names were changed by Balts?
Did you know that native Russian population lived in these states in period of 1917-1939 and percent of them were quite high?

Every time I hear about Balts version of history I cry :)

[asch]

Estonia was a independent nation, with its own people, VERY DIFFERENT FROM SLAVS.. until Europe was devided between you nazis and communist, and communists occupied the nation and started to murder and deport people. And yes, it is a crime to forcibly move people of nation you have occupied to the other side of the planet, even if "only" 3% of the population as you claim, and in return colonialize their tiny nation by sending in hundreds of thousands of settlers and military troops.
So yes, its not right, and the russians have no place there, no matter what you revisionist stalin huggers say.

Cheers.
sounds kinda racist to me.

[omghihi]

Incredible stupidity.

Did you know, that Baltic states were part of Russian Empire for many years before 1917 revolution? Did you know that many Baltic cities was founded by Russians, and had native Russian names before their names were changed by Balts?
Did you know that native Russian population lived in these states in period of 1917-1939 and percent of them were quite high?

Every time I hear about Balts version of history I cry :)

Did you also know, that the baltic territories were not a part of the Russian empire for even a longer time before 1709? Or that in 1939, russians in estonia were whole 8% of the total population - the old believers.

which of the baltic towns (or at least in estonia) were founded by the russians then? I can't think of any right now. please enlighten me. It is not uncommon at all for countries to have their own names for areas in their neighbouring countries anyway.

[TakeIt]

A.Oliveira Salazar didn't consider mozambique or angola colonies either, more as part of Portugal We are speaking about Estonia here. There are particular features that describes a colony.


after reading Gulag Archipelago, I get the impression that was just the case. in fact, the whole family was responsible for any supposed crimes. whole families were sent away in cattle cars.Great. One book describes it all, eh? After reading a lot more i can say that your impression is incorrect, and while even children of "enemies of the people" were often ostrakised they managed to have university education and build their own lifes and careers succesfully on many occasions(Z.Fedorova even received Stalin's Premium), not to mention children of criminals etc. And again a remainder - SU is not only about Stalin and his time in power.


well the general idea is that Estonia is a country for estonians to preserve our national identity. How russians in present time endanger estonian identity?


Russia already has 1/6 of the world anyway.That's a clear fallacy, that can be used to generally justify anything.

[Kilgor]

Great. One book describes it all, eh? After reading a lot more i can say that your impression is incorrect, and while even children of "enemies of the people" were often ostrakised they managed to have university education and build their own lifes and careers succesfully on many occasions(Z.Fedorova even received Stalin's Premium), not to mention children of criminals etc. And again a remainder - SU is not only about Stalin and his time in power.


Lenin started this trend ie Punitive measures against family members. Like many examples, stalin followed Lenin's practises. Order 270 is a good example

"Ostracised" oh please..:roll:, quite often family members were also shot and sent to the Gulag. Many party members caught up in the great purge had their whole families destroyed.

[TakeIt]

Lenin started this trend ie Punitive measures against family members. Like many examples, stalin followed Lenin's practises. Order 270 is a good example

"Ostracised" oh please..:roll:, quite often family members were also shot and sent to the Gulag. Many party members caught up in the great purge had their whole families destroyed.

:sigh: Kilgor, do i need to expose your ignorance again, or you stay silent by yourself?

Wait - no. I don't fight windmills or religious zealots..

[Kilgor]

Oh please, do tell me which part of my statements were wrong.

[TakeIt]

Oh please, do tell me which part of my statements were wrong.Why not, if you insist.


Lenin started this trend ie Punitive measures against family members. Like many examples, stalin followed Lenin's practises. This statement is so general, that is similar to "British started using concentration camps, <insert whoemever you wish> followed their practices". Despite external similarity the underlying causes were different, as well as implementation. Again, the desire to generalise and follow agenda led you to write another BS.


Order 270 is a good example Of what? Are you familiar with the implementation of that order? Or just read about it in a ... :gasp: ... wiki?


"Ostracised" oh please.., quite often family members were also shot and sent to the Gulag. Many party members caught up in the great purge had their whole families destroyed. "Many"? "Quite often"? During Ezhovshina nearly 25k childen of "enemies of the people" were taken from their parents. So, how many of them were shot?

BTW, thx for derailing the thread with you anti-SU crusade, as usual.