Romainians hit by racist attacks

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Romanians hit by racist attacks in Northern Ireland 'want to go home'
David Sharrock, Ireland Correspondent

More than 100 Romanians forced from their homes by racist attacks are likely to abandon Northern Ireland.

They were forced to take shelter in a church overnight, are currently taking refuge in a leisure centre and will offered temporary homes in student accommodation.

A mother of two, who said she only wanted to be known by her first name Maria, said everyone was now adamant that they wanted to return to Romania.

Maria said that attacks on their homes, mostly the smashing of windows, had been intensifying over the last two weeks but came to a head on Tuesday when racist thugs broke in and threatening her and her children.
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“We are OK, we are safe now,” Maria said in the leisure centre. “But we want to go home because right now we are not safe here.

“We want to go back home to Romania, everybody right now does.

“I want to go home because I have here two kids and I want my kids to be safe.”

Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive, the power-sharing body which runs local government, arrived throughout the morning to meet the 114 Romanians and to express their disgust at what has happened to them.

Martin McGuinness, the Deputy First Minister, said he was outraged and disgusted by the actions of what he called “a small unrepresentative group of racist criminals”.

Mr McGuinness said it was important that the police caught and charged the perpetrators.

He called them “racists and sectarian bigots” and insisted that the power-sharing executive had a strategy to combat such attitudes.

“The vast majority of people here share my view that what has been happening to these people is despicable,” he said.

Anna Lo, one of the area’s Northern Ireland Assembly representatives (MLAs) and Europe’s only Chinese elected politician, said that last week one Romanian told her that they had been threatened by a man waving a handgun at them. I don't know what they have done to upset the locals but I must admit the Romainians that I have known and worked with have been fairly mild mannered and that includes the Roma.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6521774.ece

[kosse]

Are these people possibly part of the every summer gypsy outbreak from Romania who come to steal, beg and harass people in western Europe? They have been flocking into Finland too every summer to practise their trade ever since Romania joined EU. Luckily the winters here are too tough for them so they can't settle down.

[Stormz_STA]

I did not realize Romanians were a different racial group from the natives of NI ;)

On a serious note, similar attacks on people from other eastern/central european countries have taken place in the last couple of months in NI. I wonder what is the cause of that.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I did not realize Romanians were a different racial group from the natives of NI ;)

On a serious note, similar attacks on people from other eastern/central european countries have taken place in the last couple of months in NI. I wonder what is the cause of that.If I attack an English chap in Scotland soley because he is English I will be on charge of assault and racism and quite rightly so.

[kalerab]

I did not realize Romanians were a different racial group from the natives of NI ;)

On a serious note, similar attacks on people from other eastern/central european countries have taken place in the last couple of months in NI. I wonder what is the cause of that.

Well, if you live in country which have singnificant gypsy community - you know. If you don´t - you will.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

On a serious note, similar attacks on people from other eastern/central european countries have taken place in the last couple of months in NI. I wonder what is the cause of that.There seems to be have been a fair few Poles attacked and some Polish folk in NI are blaming the actions of Polish football fans back in March who ran about attacking people for no real reason other than the fact that they were not Polish. I know the Poles are are a hardy race but this is not the sh*t you pull in NI without repercussions.

[Stormz_STA]

There seems to be have been a fair few Poles attacked and some Polish folk in NI are blaming the actions of Polish football fans back in March who ran about attacking people for no real reason other than the fact that they were not Polish. I know the Poles are are a hardy race but this is not the sh*t you pull in NI without repercussions.

Too bad the repercussions you talk about didn't affect those responsible :|

[Facaletz]

i'm ashamed they call themselves romanians..they are gypsys...they make Romania a bad name in the world....i'm sick of them

[Holycrusader]

i'm ashamed they call themselves romanians..they are gypsys...they make Romania a bad name in the world....i'm sick of them

True, true...

In Poland when they say "rumun" they mean gypsy. At least educated people know about difference.

Sympathy to you.

[zapatero]

There seems to be have been a fair few Poles attacked and some Polish folk in NI are blaming the actions of Polish football fans back in March who ran about attacking people for no real reason other than the fact that they were not Polish. I know the Poles are are a hardy race but this is not the sh*t you pull in NI without repercussions.
Since when Poles are a race?

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Since when Poles are a race?Take it up with the law makers, if you attack someone because they are not from the same nation as you what label would you apply to the crime. Or do you think it should not be a crime?

[Facaletz]

I do not want to seem racist but I'm tired to walk on the streets and see these gypsys.They know only to steal and destroy all the good things in this country.they appear every day on the news whit their "things" that they do in all the Europe.Now many countries don't want to be visitated by the romanians no more beacuse of them.(i'm sorry for my english but i'm very mad)

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Too bad the repercussions you talk about didn't affect those responsible :|There was a general feeling with the locals that the police gave the Polish football thugs an easy time, the group of Poles causing the trouble was no greater than 50 people according to police.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I do not want to seem racist but I'm tired to walk on the streets and see these gypsys.They know only to steal and destroy all the good things in this country.they appear every day on the news whit their "things" that they do in all the Europe.Now many countries don't want to be visitated by the romanians no more beacuse of them.(i'm sorry for my english but i'm very mad)To be fair they are very mild mannered round my way, kids are better behaved than the local kids.

[Eztyga]

“We are OK, we are safe now,” Maria said in the leisure centre. “But we want to go home because right now we are not safe here.

“We want to go back home to Romania, everybody right now does.

Job done...

[Eoin666]

“We are OK, we are safe now,” Maria said in the leisure centre. “But we want to go home because right now we are not safe here.

“We want to go back home to Romania, everybody right now does.

Job done...

Surprised when I heard that, that they didn't say they wanted to go to the mainland UK!:roll:

[Eztyga]

Surprised when I heard that, that they didn't say they wanted to go to the mainland UK!:roll:

They will probably fleece a few people as they transit through.

[Connaught Ranger]

Well, if you live in country which have singnificant gypsy community - you know. If you don´t - you will.

A very narrow minded comment indeed,:roll: the origin of these attacks in Northern Ireland stems from a football match with Poland a few months ago,which ended up with riots, since then it degenerated into attacks against people who are clearly non-Northern Irish / British, picked out because their dress, skin tones, and language sets them apart.
Amongst the Romanians targeted in Northern Ireland are members of the Roma community, but not exclusively.

Connaught Ranger

[Connaught Ranger]

They will probably fleece a few people as they transit through.

So all people from Eastern Europe are thieves, in your opinion. :roll:

[Connaught Ranger]

i'm ashamed they call themselves romanians..they are gypsys...they make Romania a bad name in the world....i'm sick of them

If Romania, amongst others countries had put some effort into integration instead of forcing them to live in communes this "problem" would have been sorted out years ago.

There are enough Romanian criminals outside Romania, who are not Roma, to give the country a bad name, such as the Romanian gangs targeting and cloning bank cards at cash machines.

Connaught Ranger.

[Connaught Ranger]

I do not want to seem racist but I'm tired to walk on the streets and see these gypsys.They know only to steal and destroy all the good things in this country.they appear every day on the news whit their "things" that they do in all the Europe.Now many countries don't want to be visitated by the romanians no more beacuse of them.(i'm sorry for my english but i'm very mad)

and posting racist bullsh*t:roll:

[The_Android]

If Romania, amongst others countries had put some effort into integration instead of forcing them to live in communes this "problem" would have been sorted out years ago.


We've had gypsies here for hundreds of years and they still don't even want to integrate nor work. Most of them don't want anything to do with our culture. Hard to integrate such people.

While there is no denying that gypsies are being discriminated in many European countires, they aren't exactly faultless themselves either.

[Killian]

Gypsys can't and don't want to be integrated. We built them homes and flats in Slovakia, after a few months they looked like after a nuclear war. They get money from the state for doing nothing.
This is not about racism, I don't care what colour the people are but how they behave. And if you think they are OK, go to a gypsy "slum" and try to survive a few minutes. I meet them everyday, I know what I am talking about.

[Kippari]

PM Macs about the final solution for gypsies.

[kosse]

PM Macs about the final solution for gypsies.
Macs, your friendly neighbourhood oven supplier. Call now, 1-666-ENDLÖSUNG-4U.

[Blue_0]

Justifying racism on race it just pathetic and a bit disturbing.

-- Bluelight

[Connaught Ranger]

Gypsys can't and don't want to be integrated. We built them homes and flats in Slovakia, after a few months they looked like after a nuclear war. They get money from the state for doing nothing.
This is not about racism, I don't care what colour the people are but how they behave. And if you think they are OK, go to a gypsy "slum" and try to survive a few minutes. I meet them everyday, I know what I am talking about.

Nice first post:roll:, "we built then homes and flats" in other words you created a ghetto, as nobody wants gypsies living beside them "because they are all thieves, they smell, they kidnap and sell little children etc..etc..."

I live in Romania, however I am not a Romanian national and guess what, we have gypsies here too and the same problems, however all crimes committed in Romania are not committed just by Gypsies, but you seem to think it easier to blame them, than admit Slovakian's are capable of committing the same crimes and worse.

Do you really think, in all honesty that integration will happen over night, even more so in countries still getting over the Communist period?

The Roma have been forced onto the edge of most societies since the 1400's, as I said we all bear some responsibility for allowing what happened, change will take years and the answer is not in continuing to push the matter out of sight and out of mind, and the xenophobic remarks and suggestions will not solve the matter either.

Connaught Ranger.

[sup_tech]

Are these people possibly part of the every summer gypsy outbreak from Romania who come to steal, beg and harass people in western Europe? They have been flocking into Finland too every summer to practise their trade ever since Romania joined EU. Luckily the winters here are too tough for them so they can't settle down.

Are you being a racist? 'Cuase if I write something like this about georgians in Russia "who come to steal, sell drugs and participate in bootlegging" I am pretty sure one of you, Finns, or this georgian-turkish-canadian numb nut would've complain to Mods.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

There is nothing new in these attacks they have been going on for years in the North, minority groups being attacked.
I don't want to start a flame war, however Loyalist groups have been behind them, the Portugese and Chinese were a major target a few years back, now the Romani and Eastern Europeans.You could say mainly "behind them" as Asians have been singled out in Republican areas before.

[Connaught Ranger]

QFT. However I did attend school with a gypsy girl and she tried very hard to be like us. I'm still and will always be ashamed at the attitude I and every other classmate had towards her. We didn't treat her bad we just didn't treat her like we treated each other. It seems to me that these gypsies in Ireland were pretty much integrated into the Irish community (at the very least they do not live in tents) and were trying to "make it" so to speak. No report I've read so far implies that they were criminals which suggests that they were working and not bothering anyone. Attacking people that have done you no wrong is wrong and attacking them because they are different in some way is a hate attack/racism. But I do agree with you that the gypsy race had hundreds of years to assimilate themselves into whatever country they settled in and they chose not to do so. I could go on for a while about gypsies, having experienced them on three continents but as for these specific gypsies in Ireland having their homes attacked for no reason other than being a gypsy, that is completly wrong and I hope the criminals will be caught and persecuted fast.

Just for clarification:-

There is a distinct difference to what are referred to as "Tinkers" or "Travelers" in Ireland and the "Roma" race.

Irish Travelers or Tinkers are basically ethnic Irish people who went on the road back in the 1800's, many due to losing their livelihood and rented land when the Potato Famine destroyed the social fabric of Ireland for the working class, they have no connection to the Roma, they speak the "Chant" a slang language, developed so they could discuss their business dealings without anybody getting wise to what was going on, it was also useful in prison when wanting to talk so the prison warders would not understand what was being said.

These people too were pushed to the edge of (Irish) society, being forced to live in poor conditions, and be continually on the move, many developed skills working with horses, making pots and pens and clothes pegs, and collecting scrap metal, in the early 1970's they diversified into selling carpets and linoleum as well as gathering scrap metal, car batteries, etc..etc they to all suffered from the stigma of being "light fingered" and getting blamed for all types of petty crime, (seeing as many could not get jobs, being poorly educated, a life of petty crime seemed a better way of making a living to some.).

Connaught Ranger.

[Basillicus]

Justifying racism on race it just pathetic and a bit disturbing.

Generally I agree, but qypsies are an exception because in most cases you CAN justify racism towards them. They are just something out of this world.


Do you really think, in all honesty that integration will happen over night, even more so in countries still getting over the Communist period?

The Roma have been forced onto the edge of most societies since the 1400's, as I said we all bear some responsibility for allowing what happened, change will take years and the answer is not in continuing to push the matter out of sight and out of mind, and the xenophobic remarks and suggestions will not solve the matter either.

Have they ever integrated to any culture in the sense that they would do things normal things like work in an honest profession or get some education? Integration of gypsies seems to mean that they'll accept the welfare money. You see, our western european culture is horrible because people have to actually work eight hours a day to get paid and get education to get the job in the first place, and all this is against all traditional qypsy values and culture so everything is obviously our fault .

[Connaught Ranger]

Generally I agree, but qypsies are an exception because in most cases you CANNOT justify racism towards them. They are just something out of this world.

Fixed your racist comment, no do not rush to thank me:roll:

Have they ever integrated to any culture in the sense that they would do things normal things like work in an honest profession or get some education? Integration of gypsies seems to mean that they'll accept the welfare money. You see, our western european culture is horrible because people have to actually work eight hours a day to get paid and get education to get the job in the first place, and all this is against all traditional qypsy values and culture so everything is obviously our fault .

They have never been encouraged to integrate from day one, in most societies they were kept as slaves on the land, never given any education, forced to live in ghettos or communes on the outside of society, rounded up and shipped off to extermination camps in the not to distant past, so its only natural they wont integrate easily, when have any non-Roma done much for them, to instil any trust between the two communities?

Your attempt to make excuses for failings on both sides of the divide is part of the "them & us" mentality thats at the root of this problem.

Connaught Ranger.

[kosse]

Are you being a racist? 'Cuase if I write something like this about georgians in Russia "who come to steal, sell drugs and participate in bootlegging" I am pretty sure one of you, Finns, or this georgian-turkish-canadian numb nut would've complain to Mods.

I'm not going to report you for being pissed off about the ones who commit crimes since there is nothing wrong with that. Blanket generalisations, however, rarely achieve anything.

Nevertheless, it is a well known and documented fact that gypsies from certain eastern European countries spread every summer into wealthier EU countries to "earn" money in their own peculiar ways. I don't see what's wrong in critizising this group of people who do so. They come in buses and I can assure you that none of them comes to do real work. It's organized business and apparently very profitable since they come every year and keep getting better equipped all the time (vehicles etc).

[sup_tech]

I'm not going to report you for being pissed off about the ones who commit crimes since there is nothing wrong with that.

You just afraid you may get one of those "Didn't use post reporting system where appropriate, or used it improperly."

[kosse]

They have never been encouraged to integrate from day one, in most societies they were kept as slaves on the land, never given any education, forced to live in ghettos or communes on the outside of society, rounded up and shipped off to extermination camps in the not to distant past, so its only natural they wont integrate easily, when have any non-Roma done much for them, to instil any trust between the two communities?

There's never been slavery or extermination camps in Finland. Roma have been given land from 17th century in an attempt to make them settle down rather than travel and cause trouble. Finland, being a welfare nanny state, has propably done as much as possible in the modern times to integrate them. It hasn't worked as it should but at least the welfare keeps the crime in somewhat tolerable levels (they can focus on horse racing etc.).



Your attempt to make excuses for failings on both sides of the divide is part of the "them & us" mentality thats at the root of this problem.

Connaught Ranger.

You are wrong. The root of the problem is their culture.

[kosse]

You just afraid you may get one of those "Didn't use post reporting system where appropriate, or used it improperly."

Never had one of those but you sure seem to be familiar with them :lol:

And no, being very critical of certain aspects of immigration and multiculturalism I NEVER attempt to get mods to censor posts about the topic that are factual and stay within legal boundaries. I'd be sawing off the very branch I'm sitting on myself.

[Basillicus]

There's never been slavery or extermination camps in Finland. Roma have been given land from 17th century in an attempt to make them settle down rather than travel and cause trouble. Finland, being a welfare nanny state, has propably done as much as possible in the modern times to integrate them. It hasn't worked as it should but at least the welfare keeps the crime in somewhat tolerable levels (they can focus on horse racing etc.).

Exactly.

What irritates me even more than their parasitic behaviour is their total lack of manners and selfrighteous attitude. E.g. just last week when I was coming from work in almost full train there was a single gypsy woman, maybe 30 years old. Rather than just sitting on her seat like normal people she kept her feet on the seat on the opposite side and bag right next to her. So this fat biatch used up four seats in a full train and did nothing to give people room as they entered the train at station. And this wasn't enough, for the whole journey she was very loudly arguing with several different people on the phone, or loudly singing something nonsense. I travel in train twice every day and never have I seen such behaviour, not even from drunkards. And if someone would have said something she would have probably played the rasist card right away, I bet there's some cultural reason why she needs four seats and has to sing during the whole journey.

[TallGuy]

Luckily, Gypsies don't cause too much trouble here, since they get deported almost immediately. The few days they're here, there's a massive increase in shoplifting and begging.

[kosse]

Luckily, Gypsies don't cause too much trouble here, since they get deported almost immediately. The few days they're here, there's a massive increase in shoplifting and begging.

Just wait until you are in EU (2011?). Then you can't deport them any more for petty crimes :lol:

[TallGuy]

Just wait until you are in EU (2011?). Then you can't deport them any more for petty crimes :lol:
Well, not all of them commited crimes. I guess their deportation was a preventive measure....

[Cornelius]

The romanians are sufering alot for their gypsies who are doing a bad name Romania...
And i think that racist attacks are well motived...

[Connaught Ranger]

The romanians are sufering alot for their gypsies who are doing a bad name Romania...
And i think that racist attacks are well motived...

More xenophobic bull sh*t.:roll:

[Cornelius]

More xenophobic bull sh*t.:roll:

My words are motivated, in Romania more then 85% of gypsies, are not working.
How are they living if they are not working?They are living from the money of the people of Romanians who are working and are paying taxes.
They have the romanian citizenship, the most people dosen't make the diferencese between romanians and gypsies, and it's creating a confuse, for exemple in Italy and Spain, they did a lot of problems, if you go there as a romanian you could be wiped becasuse of what they did.
I don't want to say that the Romanians are saints, they are not, but almost all the horrible crimes made in Italy, where made by etnic gypsies.
Every year the universities, are ofering spots without exams for gypsies, and a normal romanian student to enter to a universitiy got to take some exams, and you can say that they are discriminated?

[Facaletz]

More xenophobic bull sh*t.:roll:
are you telling me they don't make a bad image to our country??

[Connaught Ranger]

My words are motivated, in Romania more then 85% of gypsies, are not working.
How are they living if they are not working?They are living from the money of the people of Romanians who are working and are paying taxes.
They have the romanian citizenship, the most people dosen't make the diferencese between romanians and gypsies, and it's creating a confuse, for exemple in Italy and Spain, they did a lot of problems, if you go there as a romanian you could be wiped becasuse of what they did.
I don't want to say that the Romanians are saints, they are not, but almost all the horrible crimes made in Italy, where made by etnic gypsies.
Every year the universities, are ofering spots without exams for gypsies, and a normal romanian student to enter to a universitiy got to take some exams, and you can say that they are discriminated?

Funny, man, I live in Romania too, and I see Gypsys out working in the fields all around where I live.:roll:

And they appear to be employed on farms in Spain and Italy as well.

And how many Gypsy sports stars are taking up the offer of going to university?:roll:

Funny there are Romanian nationals as students able to bribe proffesors for places and graduation marks in Universitys, they are not Gypsyies either.rofl

When it comes to petty crime of course Gyspys are involved, nobody is denying that, as they dont have a chance to get money any other way.

However I do know that there are many Romanian Mafiots, including many crooked ex-communist political people fleecing Romania full-time. rofl

So trying to pin all that is wrong with Romania on one section of the national population wont wash.

Connaught Ranger.

[Connaught Ranger]

are you telling me they don't make a bad image to our country??

You appear to believe the Roma only represent Romania. :roll:

How about the Romanian criminal gangs running the bank cloning card scams in the U.K. they are not Roma.:roll:

Connaught Ranger.

[TallGuy]

Are you married to a Gypsy woman, CR? Because you're a bit defensive in most threads regarding Gypsies...

[Connaught Ranger]

Are you married to a Gypsy woman, CR? Because you're a bit defensive in most threads regarding Gypsies...

No. but being of Anglo-Irish stock, I am against bigots and xenophobes:roll:

If you knew anything about the Roma, they seldom marry outside of their own people.

Connaught Ranger.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Are you married to a Gypsy woman, CR? Because you're a bit defensive in most threads regarding Gypsies...Maybe he is just being a compassionate human being. Try it sometime you might like it.

:roll:

[Facaletz]

Maybe he is just being a compassionate human being. Try it sometime you might like it.

:roll:

a thing is to be a compassionate person and another thing is to don't accept the facts

[Cornelius]

No i'm not a funny man, You have no point, they numbers and the actions of them are talking!
You can name me xenofob or whatever you want, i'm sick of them, the gyspies from Hungaria and Bulgaria, are causing the same problems to their countrys..
And i'm doubt you live in Romania, and you see plenty of gypsies working while 85% of them are not working.

[b0sco]

Mhh, gypsies... hanging around near big intersections and come up to clean your windshield even if you don't want them to...
if you say 'No' they scratch the paint and spit on the car.

Old gypsie women crippling through shopping malls asking for money,
then suddenly appear to be healed when their man comes to pick them up in his car.

Gypsie kids running around in packs, stealing wallets.

Lovely.

[TallGuy]

Mhh, gypsies... hanging around near big intersections and come up to clean your windshield even if you don't want them to...
if you say 'No' they scratch the paint and spit on the car.

Old gypsie women crippling through shopping malls asking for money,
then suddenly appear to be healed when their man comes to pick them up in his car.

Gypsie kids running around in packs, stealing wallets.

Lovely.
Racist... p-)

[Fade]

Mhh, gypsies... hanging around near big intersections and come up to clean your windshield even if you don't want them to...
if you say 'No' they scratch the paint and spit on the car.

Old gypsie women crippling through shopping malls asking for money,
then suddenly appear to be healed when their man comes to pick them up in his car.

Gypsie kids running around in packs, stealing wallets.

Lovely.Now you've done it, the sheer amount of rolleyes.gifs that are incoming are gonna crash the server. GOOD JOB B0SCO

[Facaletz]

he is not a racist,this is the truth

[Cornelius]

Racist... p-)

Racist because he is saying the truth?

[kalerab]

No i'm not a funny man, You have no point, they numbers and the actions of them are talking!
You can name me xenofob or whatever you want, i'm sick of them, the gyspies from Hungaria and Bulgaria, are causing the same problems to their countrys..
And i'm doubt you live in Romania, and you see plenty of gypsies working while 85% of them are not working.

Exactly, every single country which have some singnificant gypsy population has problems with them. It isn´t so long ago when gypsies started some kind of rebellion in eastern Slovakia because goverment lowered childrens allowance. They broke to several stores and looted them - guess what they stole? Medicals? No. Food? A little bit. Water? Not a bit. Alcohol and cigarettes? Bingo. I think this say it all http://res5ekt.com/4fun-funny-obrazky/files/slovak-romale-are-hungry.jpg

[TallGuy]

Racist because he is saying the truth?
I was being sarcastic...

[NathS]

My words are motivated, in Romania more then 85% of gypsies, are not working.


Maybe I wasn't in Romania long enough to get a good understanding, but my impression was that Roms were stuck with crappy jobs that no one else would (like to) do, like garbage collector and such.
Heck, the women cleaning the streets in the EARLY morning clearly were Roms.

So, yeah, they aren't working because they're lazy, evil, children kidnappers...


Exactly, every single country which have some singnificant gypsy population has problems with them. It isn´t so long ago when gypsies started some kind of rebellion in eastern Slovakia because goverment lowered childrens allowance. They broke to several stores and looted them - guess what they stole? Medicals? No. Food? A little bit. Water? Not a bit. Alcohol and cigarettes? Bingo. I think this say it all http://res5ekt.com/4fun-funny-obrazky/files/slovak-romale-are-hungry.jpg

I won't even comment :roll:

[Cornelius]

peeps,

maybe just calm down, before this thread will be locked down for good.

Connaught Ranger: Erdély (~Transsylvania) is neither Bucuresti, nor the Danube-delta, for that is the bread basket of Romania and also an ethnic region (probably of hungarian székelys, no?).

Things would be a lil bit diffn't in the southern/easternmost parts...

For those blaming sh*t on gypsies:

it is europe: a multicultural and multiracial dreamland!

The things about gypises are not too diferent from southern or any other place, i'm from Transilvania too..

[kalerab]

Maybe I wasn't in Romania long enough to get a good understanding, but my impression was that Roms were stuck with crappy jobs that no one else would (like to) do, like garbage collector and such.
Heck, the women cleaning the streets in the EARLY morning clearly were Roms.

So, yeah, they aren't working because they're lazy, evil, children kidnappers...



I won't even comment :roll:

One question - where are you from?

[SHAM]

Video footage of what allegedly instigated the attacks on Eastern Europeans in Northern Ireland over the past couple of months.
Polish football fans rioting at a match against Northern Ireland in Belfast.
The fans flew home, and the loyalists took it out on Polish living and working in Northern Ireland, and its rolled on from there.
Lets face it, it doesnt take much to kick things off in the North.
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/Sv2QBCZjJKA
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/eMLSEkFcq_4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/PK6im9tI0pM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/ZGW-WegvNTc&feature=related

[NathS]

One question - where are you from?

Alsace, France. Does it matter ?

And yeah, there's a certain number of Roms here too.

[SHAM]

pretty standard a saturday program when hools kick the lights out of each other.

kicking whole neighbourhoods out of the map is actually not. it is called sum thin else, no?

Nothing standard about polish football hooligans getting stuck into loyalists, or the resultant attacks on the imigrants.

[SHAM]

its funny when a british in North Ireland is labelling a polish as 'immigrant'


and lets mention polish are roman catholics just like the irish

Firstly, I am Irish, and I dont live in Northern Ireland.

Secondly, I dont find any of it funny, wether they be polish imigrants or catholic imigrants, i was adding some dept to the story of how this all kicked off.

All the loyalists care about, is that they are not Loyalists.

[Derbedeu]

If you knew anything about the Roma, they seldom marry outside of their own people.

Connaught Ranger.

I consider myself a fair and open-minded person. I have friends of all types of nationalities, ethnicity, and religious backgrounds. My parents raised me with the belief that one does not judge a book by its cover. Sadly, all of my experiences with gypsies have been bad. :-( Whether I was in Belgium, France, Italy, or my own Romania, I've been a target of several scams by them (undoubtedly because I pass for an American tourist). Does that mean that I think that all gypsies are thieves? Nope. I'm well aware that there are gypsies who are policemen, lawyers, musicians, doctors, etc, productive members of society. But I wouldn't be surprised to find out that these gypsies are probably discriminated against by their own for "turning their back on" their culture. Not surprisingly a high percentage of them simply do not assimilate into society. Look at your highlighted quote. Ever stop to ask yourself why do you think that is? It's because of their culture that they're raised in. There's nothing wrong with keeping one's culture, but you have to respect the laws and general outlines of society if you wish to live there. Things like marrying off their daughters when they're 11 or 13 simply shouldn't be allowed, even if it's considered part of their culture. We're in the 21st century people.

And the sad thing is that all too often gypsies do have a negative impact on Romania. Speaking from personal experience the two most common answers I get when asking someone what they know about Romania is that either gypsies come from there or that Dracula and vampires come from there.

This is not to say that Romania doesn't have its fair share of criminals either, it does, just like any other country does. And I'm willing to admit that gypsies (along with Hungarians) were discriminated against institutionally under Ceausescu. I don't think that you can claim today that they are discriminated against by the government. If anything they are given greater opportunities as a minority (provided they take advantage of them) than your average Joe.

[The Balkan]

i'm ashamed they call themselves romanians..they are gypsys...they make Romania a bad name in the world....i'm sick of them

They don't, other call them that since they're FROM Romania. Western media doesn't seem to be able to grasp the difference between Roma/Romany and Romanian.

[Connaught Ranger]

its funny when a british in North Ireland is labelling a polish as 'immigrant'


and lets mention polish are roman catholics just like the irish

Your ignorance of Ireland is outstanding, Northern Ireland a.k.a. the 6 Counties is British, the Southern Irish Republic has given up any legal claim to it.

As there are a lot of Protestants living in Northern Ireland, who are very pro-British, Religion and Politics that's what all the fighting and terrorist attacks have been about for the last 40 years or so. :roll:

Connaught Ranger.:)

[Connaught Ranger]

a thing is to be a compassionate person and another thing is to don't accept the facts

You have presented no facts only ranting against the Roma.:roll:

[Connaught Ranger]

No i'm not a funny man, You have no point, they numbers and the actions of them are talking!
You can name me xenofob or whatever you want, i'm sick of them, the gyspies from Hungaria and Bulgaria, are causing the same problems to their countrys..
And i'm doubt you live in Romania, and you see plenty of gypsies working while 85% of them are not working.

I have no doubts I am in Transylvania, Romania, in fact I have been here for over 6 years, happily married to a Romanian lady, funny thing though, the guy that tried to break into my house to rob it was a Romanian and not a Gypsy. :roll:

Connaught Ranger.

[Mofreaka]

At first glance i thought that said Romulans. Thats not a good sign.

[gazell]

But I wouldn't be surprised to find out that these gypsies are probably discriminated against by their own for "turning their back on" their culture.

It's a well-known fact I believe. Any gypsy who went for police or similar job was called a traitor and so on. Herein lies the problem of integrated gypsies cannot really help, they are rejected by certain gypsy communities as anyone else.

They are inherently racist and do beautifully segregate themselves, as some of themselves of an intelligence, interest and/or education will explain, too.

Until this gets talked about truthfully and addressed we shall get nowhere with them. Plenty of other stuff, too of course.

[Eoin666]

Irish Travelers or Tinkers are basically ethnic Irish people who went on the road back in the 1800's, many due to losing their livlihood and rented land when the Potatoe Famine destroyed the social fabric of Ireland for the working class, they have no connection to the Roma, they speak the "Chant" a slang language, developed so they could discuss their business dealings without anybody getting wise to what was going on, it was also useful in prison when wanting to talk so the prision warders would not understand what was being said.

These people too were pushed to the edge of (Irish) society, being forced to live in poor conditions, and be continualy on the move, many developed skills working with horses, making pots and pens and clothes pegs, and collecting scrap metal, in the early 1970's they diversified into selling carpets and linolieum as well as gathering scrap metal, car batteries, etc..etc they to all suffered from the stigma of being "light fingured" and getting blamed for all types of petty crime, (seeing as many could not get jobs, being poorely educated, a life of petty crime seemed a better way of making a living to some.).

Connaught Ranger.

Skills..........:cantbeli:

I think you forgot tarmacing drives, conning money out of old people, destroying any local land they stay on legal sites or otherwise, illegally taking land and building whatever they want on it, and generally sticking 2 fingers up to the law....and just recently attacking a police helicopter for filming them (they broke into the hangar and trashed it).......Dailymail I know!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1181534/Gypsies-smash-5million-police-helicopter-axes-revenge-spy-flights.html

They are parasites on society, and that's not racism its' realism




its funny when a british in North Ireland is labelling a polish as 'immigrant'

Loyalists are Britsh because it's part of the UK but they are also Northern Irish, their community has been there for 500yrs so they're haven't just popped over there for a footy game :roll:

[Connaught Ranger]

Skills..........:cantbeli:

I think you forgot tarmacing drives, conning money out of old people, destroying any local land they stay on legal sites or otherwise, illegally taking land and building whatever they want on it, and generally sticking 2 fingers up to the law....and just recently attacking a police helicopter for filming them (they broke into the hangar and trashed it).......Dailymail I know!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1181534/Gypsies-smash-5million-police-helicopter-axes-revenge-spy-flights.html

They are parasites on society, and that's not racism its' realism.


Yes tin-smithing and horse breeding have serious skills involved, the tarmac con is relative to the 1980's+ period, and as with all groups in society you will find a criminal element.

Like the rabid anti Roma posters to this thread, you make the mistake of judging all the Irish Travelers / Tinkers by the actions of a few, the police helicopter incident was in the UK and I believe there are many so called "travelers" / Pikey's there, involved in crime who have a very thin if any connection with Ireland.

Please feel free post any source for illegally taking land in Ireland and building on it.

Connaught Ranger.

[LordKitchener]

Gypsys can't and don't want to be integrated. We built them homes and flats in Slovakia, after a few months they looked like after a nuclear war. They get money from the state for doing nothing.
This is not about racism, I don't care what colour the people are but how they behave. And if you think they are OK, go to a gypsy "slum" and try to survive a few minutes. I meet them everyday, I know what I am talking about.


We all have similar negative experiences with gypsies. It's good to see most people in this thread can see them for what they are and are immune from the mind-controlling efforts of the liberal Thought Police.


Unfortunately, people like ConnaughtRanger tend to believe what they want and completely ignore reality.

The existence of both the Roma and Irish travellers depends on thievery and dishonesty. They contribute nothing to the nation. All they do is consume police resources, taxpayers' money and clog up hospitals after their gang fights. And I make these claims through personal experiences like most people here.

[LordKitchener]

If you knew anything about the Roma, they seldom marry outside of their own people.

It sounds like they are very 'racist', no?

[PeterRJG]

It sounds like they are very 'racist', no?

No, the correct terminology is "us and them"

/sarcasm

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

They contribute nothing to the nation. All they do is consume police resources, taxpayers' money and clog up hospitals after their gang fights. And I make these claims through personal experiences like most people hereSounds like the voting base of the BNP if you ask me.p-)

[Kaapeli]

Connaught Ranger is making it sound like it's our fault that the Gypsies refuse to integrate into the society.

We have been giving them everything and bowing down to their idiotic "rules" (like not allowing rivaling families live in the same city because their elders forbid it), the social services pay special allowance for their traditional dresses tailored in France.
There are constantly programs to give these people additional education and offer them jobs. Still half of then never even finish primary school.
One municipality even decided to give every working age gypsy in the area a job "no questions asked". Know what they did? They moved to another municipality because they preferred welfare.

Still no matter what we do to help them and integrate them they still reject the efforts for the last 400 years. 80% of the working age population are unemployed and 40% have a criminal record. The few that actually work have their own shady "businesses" (and most of the unemployed ones have too on the side).
School is 100% free for them an all levels but they're not interested education. Practically all jobs offered to them are refused because you would actually have to come to work every day and not whenever you feel like it.

There are good gypsies but they make up about 10%-20% of the population. And it's 90% they own fault they're not fitting in because their medieval gypsy culture says they shouldn't. Hell even our African refugees are integrating better than gypsies who have lived here for 400 years!

[Connaught Ranger]

Looking at some of the replies posted here its clear the Fascist mentality is alive and well in Europe.:)

Its also clear some lack basic reading skills, I never said it was down to "anyone's" fault,:roll: I said "all" were at fault, down through history and that includes the Roma.

Its quite obvious that there is no easy solution to this problem, like all such problems it takes time to resolve.

It might come as a shock that schooling in Ireland is free for everybody.

Connaught Ranger.

[Nordmannen]

I live in Romania,
Isn't Transylvania Hungarian?

[Derbedeu]

Isn't Transylvania Hungarian?

No...I hope you were joking.
:bash:

[coltfan111]

^hahahahahaharofl
so where they Roma gypsies or Romanians? Here in London there is a lot of crime caused by Roma "travelers"..but we have crime here form every corner of the world, so it makes little difference, although I do think there should be stricter border control for them and in general..
A lot of people do have a very negative view of them in the UK. They are synonymous with crime in the eyes of many. Its not really a race issue..more socio-economic lol..British gypsy comunitys have the same labels attached.

[Connaught Ranger]

Isn't Transylvania Hungarian?


No, its not, but, they (Hungarians) wish it was. :p

[wallach]

VERY IMPORTANT! One of the greatest confusions that is common now is that between Romanians and Gypsies. It is sufficient that in your country to arrive a group of gypsies from Romania which creates problems to believe that all Romanians are gypsies. The press will write about them that they are Romanian and will not make a distinction between having Romanian citizenship and beeing ethnic Romanian. It is just like I believe that all Britons are paki because in the UK lives a large community of Pakistanis. And if the press in Romania would write to the arrival of British citizens of Pakistani origin in Romania that arrived some British and write repeatedly these thing I could believe that all Britons are Pakistani origin, right ? That goes for all countries where is the confusion between the Romanian and Gypsy. I don't refer now if Gypsies are good or bad just want to help clarify this confusion. Read the pages below for disambiguation :
Romani people (gypsies) > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people
Romanians > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanians

[Proudgrandson]

We all have similar negative experiences with gypsies. It's good to see most people in this thread can see them for what they are and are immune from the mind-controlling efforts of the liberal Thought Police.


Unfortunately, people like ConnaughtRanger tend to believe what they want and completely ignore reality.

The existence of both the Roma and Irish travellers depends on thievery and dishonesty. They contribute nothing to the nation. All they do is consume police resources, taxpayers' money and clog up hospitals after their gang fights. And I make these claims through personal experiences like most people here.

Handy if you want some lucky heather though.

[Kaapeli]

Ranger, I understand that hating these people won't change anything. But you too have to understand that they have caused much trouble for some of us (and not just statistically but personally) and their culture NEEDS to change.

[gazell]

Maybe I wasn't in Romania long enough to get a good understanding, but my impression was that Roms were stuck with crappy jobs that no one else would (like to) do, like garbage collector and such.
Heck, the women cleaning the streets in the EARLY morning clearly were Roms.


What you saw is likely to be some sort of community work - that's how the governments are trying to involve those sitting around on benefits into doing something useful, actually to try and work.

[Kaapeli]

Maybe I wasn't in Romania long enough to get a good understanding, but my impression was that Roms were stuck with crappy jobs that no one else would (like to) do, like garbage collector and such.
Heck, the women cleaning the streets in the EARLY morning clearly were Roms.

No honest work is "crappy"! There must always be the people who clean up. I find it despicable to call this essential work "crappy".
And in my country "trash men" are actually relatively well paid (for worker class) despite the contempt some people have for this work.

If you have ever been unemployed for long enough you wouldn't call any work "crap". At least in western nations where you actually get paid decently for doing even the most "menial" work.

I'm not the least bit ashamed that I've done this type of work for years and gotten by just fine. Though I'll soon be a civil engineer I'll never fail to mention in my CV my years as a garbage man or cleaner.

[Eoin666]

Yes tin-smithing and horse breeding have serious skills involved, the tarmac con is relative to the 1980's+ period, and as with all groups in society you will find a criminal element.

Like the rabid anti Roma posters to this thread, you make the mistake of judging all the Irish Travelers / Tinkers by the actions of a few, the police helicopter incident was in the UK and I believe there are many so called "travelers" / Pikey's there, involved in crime who have a very thin if any connection with Ireland.

Please feel free post any source for illegally taking land in Ireland and building on it.

Connaught Ranger.

I say again.....skills, they used to sell pegs and try and sharpen your cutlery.
Horse breeding are you serious, you do know where the term 'rag and bone man' comes from, the Irish tinkers took away rags for the textile mills and old horses for the knackers yard. They bred/breed ponies for pulling their traps, hardly thoroughbred horses.

1980's(?)......Tarmacing and general garden work is all they do, of course it still goes on as does conning the elderly, personal experience of which I'm not going into here.

Taking land.......where d'you want to start, I remember when I was little the council had to build huge barricades to stop them setting up camp at the end of the street every year. There are hundreds of reports of them de-busing onto any commonland they can get on to from parks, allotments to kids playgrounds. They even took over a recently closed fire-station here in Nottingham last year. The other alternative is, they club together buy up land and build on it without any planning permission knowing full well that it'll cost council's money and time to take them to court and by then they've converted the land into a walled estate and plumbed their caravans in permanently.

The connection they have with Ireland, is they own bloody houses there in tinker estates, yet choose to jump in their caravans and come to the UK claim benefits, free health care and err.....'work'.

They're hated over there in Ireland just as Roma are in Romania......let alone here. They're not judged by the actions of a few, they're all like that

[Connaught Ranger]

What you saw is likely to be some sort of community work - that's how the governments are trying to involve those sitting around on benefits into doing something useful, actually to try and work.

I hate to burst your little bubble but,

most of the street cleaning done in Romania by manual labour i.e, brush and shovel, hand cart is done by men & women from the Roma class.

Most of the weeding and grass cutting, flower setting, etc..etc.. in green areas of towns and cities is by men & women from the Roma class.

Most of the manual labour, digging trenches for gas, water sewers, is done by male members of the Roma class, as is most of the labour for digging trenches for building foundations.

Many Agricultural workers are from the Roma class, and much of the work is done without the use of machinery, Romania is a very poor agrarian society with horses and cattle used to pull wagons and plough's etc..etc..And most of the agrarian workers are paid piss poor wages for hours of back breaking labour.

In fact there is very little benefits paid to the unemployed in Romania regardless of their race, unless, they have been contributing from their periods of unemployment.

Connaught Ranger.

[gazell]

Connaught Ranger is making it sound like it's our fault that the Gypsies refuse to integrate into the society.

I think he is not really, just sounds like it. He is right, we are responsible as we as a majority make the laws, and quite for sake of a thin gypsy intelligencia, the policies, too. These policies are shockingly out of touch with reality and no use.

We have been giving them everything and bowing down to their idiotic "rules" (like not allowing rivaling families live in the same city because their elders forbid it), the social services pay special allowance for their traditional dresses tailored in France.

It's like the bad parent throwing money at their children. There should not be tolerance of not abiding by the law.

There are constantly programs to give these people additional education and offer them jobs. Still half of then never even finish primary school.
One municipality even decided to give every working age gypsy in the area a job "no questions asked". Know what they did? They moved to another municipality because they preferred welfare.

Do you have a similar welfare system as in Hungary? So multiply disadvantaged, more money, not having or least education is most benefits.
And welfare is so high that it is a valid choice to work.



Then of course, the gypsy are not a homogeneous group of people. The communities of different ethnic groups and history are rather different.

Some we have hardly any problems if at all, for a long time back. Others, much more so.

[Connaught Ranger]

I say again.....skills, they used to sell pegs and try and sharpen your cutlery.
Horse breeding are you serious, you do know where the term 'rag and bone man' comes from, the Irish tinkers took away rags for the textile mills and old horses for the knackers yard. They bred/breed ponies for pulling their traps, hardly thoroughbred horses.

1980's(?)......Tarmacing and general garden work is all they do, of course it still goes on as does conning the elderly, personal experience of which I'm not going into here.

Taking land.......where d'you want to start, I remember when I was little the council had to build huge barricades to stop them setting up camp at the end of the street every year. There are hundreds of reports of them de-busing onto any commonland they can get on to from parks, allotments to kids playgrounds. They even took over a recently closed fire-station here in Nottingham last year. The other alternative is, they club together buy up land and build on it without any planning permission knowing full well that it'll cost council's money and time to take them to court and by then they've converted the land into a walled estate and plumbed their caravans in permanently.

The connection they have with Ireland, is they own bloody houses there in tinker estates, yet choose to jump in their caravans and come to the UK claim benefits, free health care and err.....'work'.

They're hated over there in Ireland just as Roma are in Romania......let alone here. They're not judged by the actions of a few, they're all like that

You are talking utter bullsh*t, and have obviously no idea of how the Traveler community lives in Ireland.:roll:

My reference to horses and breeding is in connection with the traditional Horse Fairs like Ballinsloe, in County Galway, which has a Travler connection going back 200 years.

Most towns in Ireland have an official Travelers Halting site, most lay-bys in Ireland are blocked off to stop them staying there, nearly all attempts at illegal halts are quickly met with swift action by the relevant County Councils.

There is no such thing as a Tinker Estate, they are Council estates that have had Traveller families put into them, again there are problem families but the ordinary "Irish" have there quota of people like that who indulge in anti-social behaviour.Their children attend school and just like typical "Irish" kids can drop out at 15 if they do not wish to further there education.

So all Irish Tinkers / Travellers in the U.K., own houses in Ireland and just migrate to the U.K. for the rich pickings, sounds like another typical BNP rant:roll:.

I know Nottingham, as I was born there, my Mothers family are from Gotham, just past the Clifton Estate, there are many anti-social types in Nottingham, and again not all from the Irish Travler class or Roma, but, I supose its easier to accept the excuse that its the "Pikeys" and "Gyppos" who commit crimes, than, admit your own working class toe-rags are just as guilty.

Connaught Ranger.

[gazell]

I hate to burst your little bubble but,

most of the street cleaning done in Romania by manual labour i.e, brush and shovel, hand cart is done by men & women from the Roma class.

Most of the weeding and grass cutting, flower setting, etc..etc.. in green areas of towns and cities is by men & women from the Roma class.

Most of the manual labour, digging trenches for gas, water sewers, is done by male members of the Roma class, as is most of the labour for digging trenches for building foundations.

Many Agricultural workers are from the Roma class, and much of the work is done without the use of machinery, Romania is a very poor agrarian society with horses and cattle used to pull wagons and plough's etc..etc..And most of the agrarian workers are paid piss poor wages for hours of back breaking labour.

In fact there is very little benefits paid to the unemployed in Romania regardless of their race, unless, they have been contributing from their periods of unemployment.

Connaught Ranger.

Sorry, I said, likely. That's good then, they work.:)

[gazell]

Isn't Transylvania Hungarian?

No, it's part of Romania since annexed as by Trianon treaty, with a large Hungarian minority.

[oldsoak]

@Connaught

- do the Irish have a clear distinction between gypsies, tinkers, travellers, and pikeys OOI ? We do tend to roll 'em together here. It isnt helped by the pc crowd insisting on labelling the whole lot as "travellers" as other terms are deemed derogatory.

We do have "settled" groups which have basically set up house on a plot and established a de-facto village. Because the houses are basically like holiday caravans, they do not necessarily constitute permanent dwellings and most local councils are very reluctant to do very much, - partly due to the length of time required for legalities also partly due to lack of moral fibre on their part. It does of course depend on locality. not much care is given if its out in the styx or close to a depressed neighbourhood. There is a strong Irish connection ( well the number plates and accents can be bit of a give away ) possibly because there are such things as itinerant workers working for the Green Murphy, and possibly because the UK is seen as softer touch. Having said that, I've heard the term used to describe families living in houses while I was over in Kerry - people who appeared as settled as the next man - but with the usual casting of assertions regarding how they came by the money for the house etc.
They can be a b*gger to shift as they seem to know their rights far better than our legal team, and some of the council workers are quite frankly frightened by them. They are certainly quite different from the new age mob and the two groups dont always co-exist peaceably.

[Connaught Ranger]

@Connaught

- do the Irish have a clear distinction between gypsies, tinkers, travellers, and pikeys OOI ? We do tend to roll 'em together here. It isnt helped by the pc crowd insisting on labelling the whole lot as "travellers" as other terms are deemed derogatory.

We do have "settled" groups which have basically set up house on a plot and established a de-facto village. Because the houses are basically like holiday caravans, they do not necessarily constitute permanent dwellings and most local councils are very reluctant to do very much, - partly due to the length of time required for legalities also partly due to lack of moral fibre on their part. It does of course depend on locality. not much care is given if its out in the styx or close to a depressed neighbourhood. There is a strong Irish connection ( well the number plates and accents can be bit of a give away ) possibly because there are such things as itinerant workers working for the Green Murphy, and possibly because the UK is seen as softer touch. Having said that, I've heard the term used to describe families living in houses while I was over in Kerry - people who appeared as settled as the next man - but with the usual casting of assertions regarding how they came by the money for the house etc.
They can be a b*gger to shift as they seem to know their rights far better than our legal team, and some of the council workers are quite frankly frightened by them. They are certainly quite different from the new age mob and the two groups dont always co-exist peaceably.
As I posted way back in Post Number 32:-

Just for clarification:-

There is a distinct difference to what are referred to as "Tinkers" or "Travelers" in Ireland and the "Roma" race.

Irish Travelers or Tinkers are basically ethnic Irish people who went on the road back in the 1800's, many due to losing their livelihood and rented land when the Potato Famine destroyed the social fabric of Ireland for the working class, they have no connection to the Roma, they speak the "Chant" a slang language, developed so they could discuss their business dealings without anybody getting wise to what was going on, it was also useful in prison when wanting to talk so the prison warders would not understand what was being said.

These people too were pushed to the edge of (Irish) society, being forced to live in poor conditions, and be continually on the move, many developed skills working with horses, making pots and pens and clothes pegs, and collecting scrap metal, in the early 1970's they diversified into selling carpets and linoleum as well as gathering scrap metal, car batteries, etc..etc they to all suffered from the stigma of being "light fingered" and getting blamed for all types of petty crime, (seeing as many could not get jobs, being poorly educated, a life of petty crime seemed a better way of making a living to some.).

Connaught Ranger. :)

[Cornelius]

I hate to burst your little bubble but,

most of the street cleaning done in Romania by manual labour i.e, brush and shovel, hand cart is done by men & women from the Roma class.

Most of the weeding and grass cutting, flower setting, etc..etc.. in green areas of towns and cities is by men & women from the Roma class.

Most of the manual labour, digging trenches for gas, water sewers, is done by male members of the Roma class, as is most of the labour for digging trenches for building foundations.

Many Agricultural workers are from the Roma class, and much of the work is done without the use of machinery, Romania is a very poor agrarian society with horses and cattle used to pull wagons and plough's etc..etc..And most of the agrarian workers are paid piss poor wages for hours of back breaking labour.

In fact there is very little benefits paid to the unemployed in Romania regardless of their race, unless, they have been contributing from their periods of unemployment.

Connaught Ranger.

And why they are working at tranches and uraban cleaning?Because the majority of them don't want to finish their studies.
And about agriculture, that isn't true, that isn't many!
What do you want to sustain here?That they are innocent, that that the most of them are working?If you live in Romania from some time, you know very well that, the most majority of them are not working.
You could say that the jails are full of them, aswell, and you could say what they are doing in Romania too, if you sustain that you live in Romania!
Go and say this "honorable" and "touching" storys in Italy, Spain, and in the countrys wich their presence it's fealt.

[oldsoak]

@Connaught - apologies - that will teach me not to pick up fag ends !

[Connaught Ranger]

And why they are working at tranches and uraban cleaning?Because the majority of them don't want to finish their studies.
And about agriculture, that isn't true, that isn't many!
What do you want to sustain here?That they are innocent, that that the most of them are working?If you live in Romania from some time, you know very well that, the most majority of them are not working.
You could say that the jails are full of them, aswell, and you could say what they are doing in Romania too, if you sustain that you live in Romania!
Go and say this "honorable" and "touching" storys in Italy, Spain, and in the countrys wich their presence it's fealt.

You really are full of racist sh*te kid.

Many Roma children don't go to to school, period, under the Communist Regime they were required to work and their children to go to school the same as everybody else.

Since the Communist regime ended they stopped going to school, the Romanian Government is to poor to enforce the Law, there is no money to pay Social Welfare to take the children from the families, what are they supposed to do send the kids and parents to prison.:roll:

I see them out working in the fields every day as well as working in the streets they get paid very little money, for feck sakes even the ordinary Romanian "educated" worker get a poor wage by E.U. standards.

I never claimed that they are anything, I object to the racial xenophobic stereotyping that's going on here, there are an estimated 4 Million+ Roma in Romania, they are all not in criminal gangs going to Spain and Italy to steal your "wealth" your own mafia is not going to allow that.rofl

No. I cant say the jails are full of "them", thats your mentality & justification for making such openly racist remarks.

I see the conditions they are forced to live in here in Transylvania, no real homes, no real work, no real wages, no real social services, it all adds up to = no real hope.

Lets see how you would cope in such a situation where people are against you because of the colour of your skin and your etnaticity.

Connaught Ranger.

[Cornelius]

You really are full of racist sh*te kid.

Many Roma children don't go to to school, period, under the Communist Regime they were required to work and their children to go to school the same as everybody else.

Since the Communist regime ended they stopped going to school, the Romanian Government is to poor to enforce the Law, there is no money to pay Social Welfare to take the children from the families, what are they supposed to do send the kids and parents to prison.:roll:

I see them out working in the fields every day as well as working in the streets they get paid very little money, for feck sakes even the ordinary Romanian "educated" worker get a poor wage by E.U. standards.

I never claimed that they are anything, I object to the racial xenophobic stereotyping that's going on here, there are an estimated 4 Million+ Roma in Romania, they are all not in criminal gangs going to Spain and Italy to steal your "wealth" your own mafia is not going to allow that.rofl

No. I cant say the jails are full of "them", thats your mentality & justification for making such openly racist remarks.

I see the conditions they are forced to live in here in Transylvania, no real homes, no real work, no real wages, no real social services, it all adds up to = no real hope.

Lets see how you would cope in such a situation where people are against you because of the colour of your skin and your etnaticity.

Connaught Ranger.

You don't know nothing, i'm doubt you live in Romania

[Connaught Ranger]

You don't know nothing, i'm doubt you live in Romania

Dont be such a "Pula" asswipe.

I am in the Judet: Hunedoara, Transylvania, Romania.

and I dont care what you believe.:roll:

Connaught Ranger.p-)

[Cornelius]

You really are full of racist sh*te kid.

Many Roma children don't go to to school, period, under the Communist Regime they were required to work and their children to go to school the same as everybody else.

Since the Communist regime ended they stopped going to school, the Romanian Government is to poor to enforce the Law, there is no money to pay Social Welfare to take the children from the families, what are they supposed to do send the kids and parents to prison.:roll:

I see them out working in the fields every day as well as working in the streets they get paid very little money, for feck sakes even the ordinary Romanian "educated" worker get a poor wage by E.U. standards.

I never claimed that they are anything, I object to the racial xenophobic stereotyping that's going on here, there are an estimated 4 Million+ Roma in Romania, they are all not in criminal gangs going to Spain and Italy to steal your "wealth" your own mafia is not going to allow that.rofl

No. I cant say the jails are full of "them", thats your mentality & justification for making such openly racist remarks.

I see the conditions they are forced to live in here in Transylvania, no real homes, no real work, no real wages, no real social services, it all adds up to = no real hope.

Lets see how you would cope in such a situation where people are against you because of the colour of your skin and your etnaticity.

Connaught Ranger.

If i'm full of racism sh*it beacuse i'm saying the truth about them and what they are doing here in Romania and foreign countrys aswell,and how they are acting, causing problems wich are suffered by fair people, fair romanians, well that means you are an hypocrite oldman.
They want to live by thier unwrited rules...
You don't know nothing, i'm doubt you live in Romania

[Connaught Ranger]

Teenagers held over racist attacks

2 hours 41 mins ago
http://l.yimg.com/i/i/uk/ne/press.jpg?x=85&y=25&q=75&sig=Nxe12t7hWvt2_IJHcYyuMw-- (http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/pa/SIG=113i5evue/**http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pa.press.net%2F) Two teenagers have been arrested over violence which left terrified Romanians fleeing their homes in Northern Ireland (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/fc/northern-ireland.html). Skip related content (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20090619/tuk-teenagers-held-over-racist-attacks-6323e80.html#ynw-article-part2)
Related photos / videos


http://d.yimg.com/i/ng/ne/pressass/20090619/18/417687745-teenagers-held-racist-attacks.jpg#200,200 (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/photos/slideshow/crime-photos.html?imageUrl=/pressass/20090619/r_p_pressass_uk/puk-1245435612-uk-news-4-pr-2aaa9bf678d9)
Police investigating racist attacks against Romanians have raided several houses Enlarge photo (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/photos/slideshow/crime-photos.html?imageUrl=/pressass/20090619/r_p_pressass_uk/puk-1245435612-uk-news-4-pr-2aaa9bf678d9)

Police raided two houses in south Belfast following vandalism which left windows smashed on homes in the area.

The arrested pair are aged 15 and 16.

More than 100 Romanians left and were put up overnight in a church hall earlier this week. They have been given emergency accommodation while they consider their future.

A Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) spokeswoman said on Friday: "Police investigating the intimidation of Romanian nationals between June 11 and 15 in the south Belfast area have conducted two search operations in the Donegall Avenue area this afternoon.

"One man in his late teens has been arrested and is currently helping police with their inquiries. The operation is currently ongoing."

Donegall Avenue is in the loyalist working-class Village area near the two properties that were attacked last weekend. Around 114 people became refugees as the Romanian ambassador visited Belfast for talks with political leaders and police.

Separately, on Wednesday night a bathroom window was broken in a house where three generations of Romanians were living.

Political leaders have condemned the violence. Romanian ambassador Ion Jinga met Northern Ireland First Minister Peter Robinson and Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness at Stormont on Thursday.

The victims, including a five-day-old girl, have been given temporary accommodation to allow them time to consider their future. Many asked to be repatriated.No doubt some of the xenophobic fascist who post here, will feel sorry for the two little sh*ts who got caught.p-)

Connaught Ranger

[Connaught Ranger]

If i'm full of racism sh*it beacuse i'm saying the truth about them and what they are doing here in Romania and foreign countrys aswell,and how they are acting, causing problems wich are suffered by fair people, fair romanians, well that means you are an hypocrite oldman.
You don't know nothing, i'm doubt you live in Romania


Can you post in real English as the above makes no sense.:roll:

[Cornelius]

Can you post in real English as the above makes no sense.:roll:
I'm not so good at english as you oldman, i'v did my best to give you a reply, and i'm sure you understood, i could post in real Russian or better Romanian as you live in Romania specially for you if you don't understand my englishp-)

[gazell]

I'm not so good at english as you oldman, i'v did my best to give you a reply, and i'm sure you understood, i could post in real Russian or better Romanian as you live in Romania specially for you if you don't understand my englishp-)

I'm pleased for you, that you you took that really horrible comment that well, well, done.

I besides had the same thoughts as others for a long while, like he does not live in Romania, has a roma wife, or just a foreign idiot who never integrates so has no clue what he is talking about.

[gazell]

Can you post in real English as the above makes no sense.:roll:

A very racist remark, you fighter of virtue, even me, to whom it is a non-native language does understand this.p-)

So, how is your humanity about Hungarian minority in Transylvania, then?:)

Do I remember well, you also subscribe to this dako-roman theory?p-)

[23EightySix]

A very racist remark, you fighter of virtue, even me, to whom it is a non-native language does understand this.p-)

So, how is your humanity about Hungarian minority in Transylvania, then?:)

Do I remember well, you also subscribe to this dako-roman theory?p-)

Agreed. Since this particular gentlemen now resides in Romania, rather than lecture him regarding his poor english, perhaps he should converse with him in the tongue of his new homeland? Common courtesy my man.

In regards to his opinion of the Hungarian minority (once majority) in Transylvania, its pretty obvious based on his comments in previous pages of this thread and his utter dismissal of said subject in the Jobbik thread, where he stands.

Oh, and the Daco-Romanian theory? Heh, well, no need to get into that.

Anyways, if its one thing Romanians and Hungarians can agree on, its Gypsies. :hug:

[SHAM]

@Connaught

- do the Irish have a clear distinction between gypsies, tinkers, travellers, and pikeys OOI ? We do tend to roll 'em together here. It isnt helped by the pc crowd insisting on labelling the whole lot as "travellers" as other terms are deemed derogatory.

We do have "settled" groups which have basically set up house on a plot and established a de-facto village. Because the houses are basically like holiday caravans, they do not necessarily constitute permanent dwellings and most local councils are very reluctant to do very much, - partly due to the length of time required for legalities also partly due to lack of moral fibre on their part. It does of course depend on locality. not much care is given if its out in the styx or close to a depressed neighbourhood. There is a strong Irish connection ( well the number plates and accents can be bit of a give away ) possibly because there are such things as itinerant workers working for the Green Murphy, and possibly because the UK is seen as softer touch. Having said that, I've heard the term used to describe families living in houses while I was over in Kerry - people who appeared as settled as the next man - but with the usual casting of assertions regarding how they came by the money for the house etc.
They can be a b*gger to shift as they seem to know their rights far better than our legal team, and some of the council workers are quite frankly frightened by them. They are certainly quite different from the new age mob and the two groups dont always co-exist peaceably.

The only thing your sure to get from travellers / knackers/tinkers/pikeys in Ireland is trouble! The scale of the trouble you will experience will vary from petty theft, littering to assault and property damage.
The only way to avoid it is to avoid them, by either staying miles away from them, or by having them "moved on".
Moving them on quite often involves violence, and some times involves pay offs, there was a notorious case on the outskirts of Dublin, where the travellers had been squating so long they recieved in excess of 1 million euros through the courts to be moved on.

They have there own culture which is counter to civil culture, to try to understand it is to waste time, in the same way as trying to understand the Romanian gypsie culture.

Quite often they will arrive on mass in towns and take over public car parks for a weekend, these towns then shut down for that weekend, board up shops and pubs, in order to avoid the trouble.

The city of Limerick is currently the city in Ireland with the most gun crime / murders, it is being torn apart by drug gangs which are formed from clans of so called settled travellers, who are also trying to kill off each other. Groups of families fighting against each other for power.

You will find it hard to find any Irish person who has anything positive to say about the travellers.

[Degenek]

I besides had the same thoughts as others for a long while, like he does not live in Romania, has a roma wife, or just a foreign idiot who never integrates so has no clue what he is talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/d5vlco4yvSc&feature=related

[Kaapeli]

You really are full of racist sh*te kid.

Many Roma children don't go to to school, period, under the Communist Regime they were required to work and their children to go to school the same as everybody else.

Ow laawdy. We've had gypsies in Scandinavia and Finland since we invented the welfare state. We practically love anyone no matter their skin colour or race. And we've never had "communism" here, as you should know if you've read your history. Still this one group of people keep ****in' with us no matter how much we want them to fit in.

[The Balkan]

Does anyone wander how they got into their nomadic wild ways of life?

It's quite an interesting story, and the many of the same countries who hate their lifestyle had something to do with creating it :roll:

It's odd, they've never been a big prblem in Serbia or most of old Yugoslavia, they are liked, especialy for their musical skills. They're a merry people.

[cmc]

I can almost see it... yup... it's the big bad ban stick p-) ... One of the basic rules of a good dialog is not to attack a fellow member on this forum...

[Connaught Ranger]

I'm pleased for you, that you you took that really horrible comment that well, well, done.

I besides had the same thoughts as others for a long while, like he does not live in Romania, has a roma wife, or just a foreign idiot who never integrates so has no clue what he is talking about.

1. I do live in Transylvania, Romania but am not about to put my home address on a website for you.:roll:

2. I do have a Romanian wife, born in Cugir, Judet: Alba, not a Roma wife.

3. I happen to get along well with all the people of Romanian, German, Hungarian and even Roma, I meet while living here, but, it does get tiring listening to some of the younger generation of Hungarian decent in Transylvania, particularly those in Cluj-Napoca and Targu-Mures continually whining about how Transylvania belongs to Hungary.:roll:

4. For those who don't understand the Romanian "Pula" expression its means "****", no doubt they will be called worse during their lifetime.

5. If my opinions differ to yours, tough, thats what democracy is all about and not parading in quasi-military uniforms like the two fascist organisations in Hungary (Hungarian Guard / Magyar Garda,and Bulgaria (The IMRO – Bulgarian National Movement ( ВМРО – Българско национално движение, VMRO – Balgarsko natsionalno dvizhenie),following a program of ethnic hatred towards people they deem non-nationalist

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-guard13feb13,0,7240336,full.story

No doubt, the Romanian will follow along with a similar organisation based on the "values" of the Iron Guard:roll: because sure as God grows little green apples, bigots and xenophobes join together, regardless of nationality to scream out their message of hatred.

And to all you "Europeans" where in any of your rants, posted here have you even offered any form of a solution to the "problem"? We all know what you would like to post here as a "final solution" to the Roma problem, but putting that into a reply would more than likely show you up for what you are and get you banned from the Forum.p-)

To the others who are attempting to bring distraction by bringing reference to the Romanian-Hungarian "we were in Transylvania and its ours by right" = Major Fail, as Transylvania is firmly in the hands of the Romanians and will be staying that way for a very long time.

Connaught Ranger:)

P.S. excuse me if I don't post more here today I am going to a Hungarian friend's wedding here in Transylvania.

[cmc]

Let's see how a politician thinks... what would I do if I were to be the mayor of a quiet little town in Europe (you pick)...
<politician>
What if, one morning, I would find out that a group of gypsies came to my quiet little town?! Would I try to find places for them to live? Would I try to find steady work for them? Would I care if they send they kids to the local schools? My money are on NO.
I would try to have them evicted as fast as possible... In the best case scenario... I would wait for the "cold winter" (as one said) to come and hope they get the hell out... of my quiet little town...
And why shouldn't I? They are just nomad people... nomad people = no vote. And if they don't vote... why should I give a rat's ass about their little community? Why should I care if they have electricity or roads where they choose to settle... In fact... I'll try to restrict them from all this thinks just in hope they get out of here faster... let them go where ever they came from... why should I care if they integrate in MY community?
</politician>
Well people... I hope politicians are better humans then I depicted them to be... but from my experience... they are a lot worse... Do NOT understand me wrong... rroma people are to blame too... in the end... they are the ones that choose how to live their lives...
I live in Romania... and down here... we have an old joke... "This is a beautiful country... too bad is populated"... well that might be true... but I still care about all my countrymen be them gypsies, Hungarian, Germanic ethnics or what ever... (even Irish ones woot ). The rroma population MUST change, but the society must also step up and welcome them...
So... yeah... I'm with CR on this one...

[gazell]

And to all you "Europeans" where in any of your rants, posted here have you even offered any form of a solution to the "problem"?



Thanks for your reply, I do not want to derail the topic, just was interested if you are onto party political broadcast or not.

And there are a lot of things I firmly agree with you on, exactly that question, for example. Sometimes, however, I do not. Calling everybody racist, victimising the roma is the very rhetoric that amongst other things proved an epic fail, Hungary can be seen as a beautiful example of this experiment.
It removes individual responsibility, strengthens the us-them divide, re-inforces the picture of the majority as enemy.

Add to this a benefit system, that does not encourage work.

The president of the Hungarian Roma Parliament said last year, that there was no Roma hatred, where Roma works people get on fine, but the situation is such that there will be (Roma hatred). The monarchy and the previous regime can be blamed for assimilation, however the situation is much worse now. Also last year it was so estimated that about 90% of roma were out of work in Hungary.

One can of course focus on those, who are integrated and work, but the problems are elsewhere. In fact, these have rather similar complaints. These people somehow also reject anti-social and criminal behaviour that ruins their businesses. Roma pub owner bans anti-social roma families from his pub, at least, he can do that, others get an enormous fine. Yes, I do know, not only roma behave this way, the only difference is that those cases do not end up a racial discrimination problem.

Roma festivals are nice, however, work would be required urgently for a lot of these people ONLY, nothing else. There aren't any. The percentage of under or uneducated people in the Roma population is high. In the current situation people with several qualifications are struggling to find work. And they do take any jobs available.

Then there are the 'real' problem communities, where those who study and work are 'disowned' and get the same abuse and bullying as anybody else: 'stupid, working, stinky peasant'. The strength of character and will required in this situation cannot be underestimated.

Then there are those communities , who as ever before - or just returned to it as no better else was on offer - are entirely organised on crime. The strong, dominant characters abuse the others for such activity. The number of these criminals is irrelevant, the important thing is, how many people they 'employ'. These hard-working people are abused, live in terror and intimidation for pennies, while those on top become millionaires. Expecting integration of them is foolish. Only the trades changed somewhat, I don't think there is much organised beggary in Hungary, it might be outsourced to abroad. Prostitution, usora loans, drug dealing, protection money collecting, metal collecting, de-forestation, agricultural 'harvest' are the major business areas. According to some in the police the metal mafia has become as organised as the drug mafia by now. Some have grown billionaires in this trade. All under the pc: poverty crime.

Then there is the new profession of benefit expert, whose competence should not be underestimated, benefit fraud is also coming up as a good business and also spreading abroad.

Almost forgot about another new field of activity, the ethno-business. With well over a 1000 organisations and whatnot, they have achieved rather little if anything. For a rather good pay.

From the rather simple situation of getting more of these people into education and teaching new skills to those who lost their jobs after the so-called political changes we ended up with an enormous problem complex, coloured with a smoking , drinking problem, all sorts of drug abuse and violence. With generations of people, who do not know work, with more ghettos rather than less.

And how could you run a successful integration programme if you do not even know how many people you are talking about? The before mentioned gentleman has been begging for Roma statistics for ages, he is ignored. Where is the drama in a man, who wants to talk reality?

[Kippari]

I don't really understand the attitudes of some members here. It seems that it is perfectly acceptable for most Roma to live their lives as social bums and harassing ordinary people. Well guess what, it is not. I don't care if you're required by your precious culture to avoid working. Change your culture or GTFO! Atleast there's been some improvement, as i've seen some Roma kids reach even high school. However, their general attitude is that they are somehow a superior people and the others should do the work and give the cash to them. This has gone on and on for centuries. I'm pretty fed up. It's not racism, it's reality. There was/is a state run programs to integrate people who have lived here for more than 10 generations. How am I getting the feeling that the problem is no lunger us but them? The 1st generation Turks, Chinese, Arabs and pretty much the rest integrate well in 1-2 generations and they don't sometimes even speak Finnish.

The funniest thing is that even the government is tired. There was a job in a newspaper with a title: Mission Impossible, a program leader wanted to run a Romanis for work program.

[RIPTIDE]

I'm pleased for you, that you you took that really horrible comment that well, well, done.

I besides had the same thoughts as others for a long while, like he does not live in Romania, has a roma wife, or just a foreign idiot who never integrates so has no clue what he is talking about.
rofl.

I know a Romanian guy that dislikes ROMA aswell. He complains that they annoy his girlfriend, fights with him and cause problems. A Spanish girl I used to know told me they have a bad reputation for raping women in Spain where she lived (Madrid). Maybe you can tell me do you live in Romania?... This guy I know from Buchares mentioned there was a Roma woman was on TV that hit a police officer in Romania with her own baby. :-(

They are on the streets looking for money and in the churches where i live but don't have a HUGE issue with them socially or otherwise.
As I understand it they are encouraged by their own heritage not to mix socially with other gorups? Maybe I'm wrong.

[RIPTIDE]

The only thing your sure to get from travellers / knackers/tinkers/pikeys in Ireland is trouble! The scale of the trouble you will experience will vary from petty theft, littering to assault and property damage.
The only way to avoid it is to avoid them, by either staying miles away from them, or by having them "moved on".
Moving them on quite often involves violence, and some times involves pay offs, there was a notorious case on the outskirts of Dublin, where the travellers had been squating so long they recieved in excess of 1 million euros through the courts to be moved on.

They have there own culture which is counter to civil culture, to try to understand it is to waste time, in the same way as trying to understand the Romanian gypsie culture.

Quite often they will arrive on mass in towns and take over public car parks for a weekend, these towns then shut down for that weekend, board up shops and pubs, in order to avoid the trouble.

The city of Limerick is currently the city in Ireland with the most gun crime / murders, it is being torn apart by drug gangs which are formed from clans of so called settled travellers, who are also trying to kill off each other. Groups of families fighting against each other for power.

You will find it hard to find any Irish person who has anything positive to say about the travellers.
Hard to generalize. If you make a friend of a traveller he'd be your friend for life. He'd never leave you alone!! :). But up until he trusts you... you had better watch your back.

They just have a way of going on... and if you're firm with your dealings with them... they'll be ok with you.

[RIPTIDE]

Just for clarification:-

There is a distinct difference to what are referred to as "Tinkers" or "Travelers" in Ireland and the "Roma" race.

Irish Travelers or Tinkers are basically ethnic Irish people who went on the road back in the 1800's, many due to losing their livelihood and rented land when the Potato Famine destroyed the social fabric of Ireland for the working class, they have no connection to the Roma, they speak the "Chant" a slang language, developed so they could discuss their business dealings without anybody getting wise to what was going on, it was also useful in prison when wanting to talk so the prison warders would not understand what was being said.

Connaught Ranger.
There's no real proof for that. It really still is unclear to how they all went on the road. Obviously many of them went on the road at diff times, but we're talking possibly centuries between groups and 'families'. Genetics someday might give us clues. I know they have some high occurence of rare genetic diseases in their community and abnormalities that some day might pin it down.

[Proudgrandson]

I say again.....skills, they used to sell pegs and try and sharpen your cutlery.
Horse breeding are you serious, you do know where the term 'rag and bone man' comes from, the Irish tinkers took away rags for the textile mills and old horses for the knackers yard. They bred/breed ponies for pulling their traps, hardly thoroughbred horses.

1980's(?)......Tarmacing and general garden work is all they do, of course it still goes on as does conning the elderly, personal experience of which I'm not going into here.

Taking land.......where d'you want to start, I remember when I was little the council had to build huge barricades to stop them setting up camp at the end of the street every year. There are hundreds of reports of them de-busing onto any commonland they can get on to from parks, allotments to kids playgrounds. They even took over a recently closed fire-station here in Nottingham last year. The other alternative is, they club together buy up land and build on it without any planning permission knowing full well that it'll cost council's money and time to take them to court and by then they've converted the land into a walled estate and plumbed their caravans in permanently.

The connection they have with Ireland, is they own bloody houses there in tinker estates, yet choose to jump in their caravans and come to the UK claim benefits, free health care and err.....'work'.

They're hated over there in Ireland just as Roma are in Romania......let alone here. They're not judged by the actions of a few, they're all like that

I will say this.....I've no complaints about the roof they put on the house 6 years ago, no leaks and nothing went missing.

[RIPTIDE]

I will say this.....I've no complaints about the roof they put on the house 6 years ago, no leaks and nothing went missing.
My point exactly. Its hard to generalize and put them all in the bad camp.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I really don't get this Roma are lazy stuff, I have had them 2 years running and so far I have found idleness to be proportional in a population.

[oakleaf]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Connaught Ranger http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=4211412#post4211412)

And to all you "Europeans" where in any of your rants, posted here have you even offered any form of a solution to the "problem"?



well... there was a guy... about 65 years ago, who started "the solution"... but it wasn't really a humanitarian way...

[NathS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Connaught Ranger http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=4211412#post4211412)

And to all you "Europeans" where in any of your rants, posted here have you even offered any form of a solution to the "problem"?



well... there was a guy... about 65 years ago, who started "the solution"... but it wasn't really a humanitarian way...

hilarious... :cantbeli:

[Connaught Ranger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Connaught Ranger http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=4211412#post4211412)

And to all you "Europeans" where in any of your rants, posted here have you even offered any form of a solution to the "problem"?

well... there was a guy... about 65 years ago, who started "the solution"... but it wasn't really a humanitarian way...

If that's your idea of a funny comment its well off the mark.

[gazell]

If that's your idea of a funny comment its well off the mark.

Not more so than taking the mick out of Trianon, the difference is though that this one has some wit in it.

[LuKaZz]

I don't usually fall for stereotypes based on ignorance and disinformation, however Roma gypsies do tend to cause problems in the communities where they settle.

When I was young I was living in a neighbourhood near the river and some gypsies established a camp in there, from that time onwards there was a constant wave of petty criminality, thefts, scams, assaults, and it was all due to them.

The local government even build them houses because their camp was unhygenic, still they refused the houses and kept on living in trailers and tents.

The area was then bought by some property developpers and the gypsies forced to leave, since then thefts have become way less common, there are still native junkies and other assorted lowlifes but the theft epidemic went away when the gypsies left.

[Connaught Ranger]

Not more so than taking the mick out of Trianon, the difference is though that this one has some wit in it.

And where was the "mick" taken out of Trianon in regards to this thread?:roll:

[Stormz_STA]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8113302.stm


Another fine example of NI hospitality ;)

[Connaught Ranger]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8114234.stm


Romanians leave NI after attacks

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45939000/jpg/_45939090_007507004-1.jpg
Many of the families have decided to leave Northern Ireland

One hundred Romanians who fled their homes in Belfast after a spate of recent attacks have decided to leave Northern Ireland and return to Romania.

Social Development Minister Margaret Ritchie said 25 people had already left and 75 were going to leave as soon as they could, 14 will stay in NI.
Meanwhile, a man has been remanded in custody charged with intimidating Romanian people in Belfast.

Shane Murphy, 21, of Donegall Road in the city, denies the charge.
His solicitor, who had applied for bail on his client's behalf, said Mr Murphy also denied a further charge of acting provocatively by shouting racist comments at a rally held on Lisburn Road in the city last week.

The judge, sitting at Belfast Magistrates Court, refused a bail application because he said there was a danger Mr Murphy could interfere with witnesses.

On Monday, a 15-year-old boy appeared in court charged in connection with the same incidents.

A 16-year-old boy appeared alongside him accused of provocative behaviour at the anti-racism rally.

The Housing Executive is paying for the families to return to Romania using emergency funds.

A spokesman for the Northern Ireland Council for Ethnic Minorities said it was likely the remaining families would leave before the end of the week.

Police have arrested three men in connection with the church attack

"We have all spoken to the the Romanian families and the majority of them want to go home," he said.

City Church, which last week provided temporary overnight shelter for the ethnic Roma, was targeted by vandals on Monday night.

Three men, all aged 20, have been arrested in connection with the attack.

Pastor Malcolm Morgan said the church was covered in broken glass.

"I arrived this morning to find windows smashed at the front of our church and our main glass doorway smashed as well," he said.

"Stones were lying scattered on the floor inside and outside and obviously broken glass was everywhere.

"It would be easy to conclude it was carried out by someone who didn't like our response to the Romanians, but that is only guess work.

"We were just so thrilled that we were able to respond to the Romanian situation and these broken windows wouldn't have stopped us anyway."
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45961000/jpg/_45961917_church.jpg The church provided shelter for about 20 Romanian familes

Mrs Ritchie said she was saddened, but not shocked at the incident.

"The action of these mindless thugs greatly contrasts with the outpouring of warmth and generosity demonstrated by the people of Belfast toward the plight of the Romanians," she said.

"This church community was the first to extend the hand of friendship and that makes it doubly disgraceful that it should be attacked."

On Monday night, another two youths, aged 16 and 17, were arrested in connection with provocative conduct and intimidation.

Police do not believe paramilitaries were involved in last week's attacks, which were condemned by all political parties.



The actions of a few morons no matter what race tend to reflect badly on the majority.

Connaught Ranger.

[Bushranger]

A bunch of uneducated thugs with nothing better to do. Hope they throw the book at them.

[the_13th_redneck]

Seriously they should not say "Romanians" when dealing with Gypsies. They are completely different and give Romanians a bad name.
I tried to see Gypsies with a more open mind (as the politically correct teach you to) but it's simply impossible.

[Eoin666]

You are talking utter bullsh*t, and have obviously no idea of how the Traveler community lives in Ireland.:roll:

My reference to horses and breeding is in connection with the traditional Horse Fairs like Ballinsloe, in County Galway, which has a Travler connection going back 200 years.

Most towns in Ireland have an official Travelers Halting site, most lay-bys in Ireland are blocked off to stop them staying there, nearly all attempts at illegal halts are quickly met with swift action by the relevant County Councils.

There is no such thing as a Tinker Estate, they are Council estates that have had Traveller families put into them, again there are problem families but the ordinary "Irish" have there quota of people like that who indulge in anti-social behaviour.Their children attend school and just like typical "Irish" kids can drop out at 15 if they do not wish to further there education.

So all Irish Tinkers / Travellers in the U.K., own houses in Ireland and just migrate to the U.K. for the rich pickings, sounds like another typical BNP rant:roll:.

I know Nottingham, as I was born there, my Mothers family are from Gotham, just past the Clifton Estate, there are many anti-social types in Nottingham, and again not all from the Irish Travler class or Roma, but, I supose its easier to accept the excuse that its the "Pikeys" and "Gyppos" who commit crimes, than, admit your own working class toe-rags are just as guilty.

Connaught Ranger.

Keep your BNP accusations to yourself pal, you know nothing about me :cantbeli:

Either you've been away from Ireland or Nott'm for too long.......you have some fanciful view that they're all cheeky horse dealers and greyhound trainers, that travel around doing work on building sites and such like, always at the mercy of racist communities who just don't understand them....boo f**kin hoo

I'm not from Nott'm but have lived here for 10yrs, Gotham is not Nott'm it's a little country village, and yes there are some very dodgy areas, the point I was making was that any free commonland they pitch up and take over and then have to be moved on at great expense. Of course not all crime is committed by travellers but I doubt it was people from Radford or The Meadows or St Ann's who pitched their caravans on the firestation 3 miles away from their home was it.

As to the estates in Ireland council, or otherwise, it is well known many 'travellers' OWN their own houses there then choose to 'travel', they don't need to, they choose the way of life for their financial gain......and the misery of others they encamp amongst



I will say this.....I've no complaints about the roof they put on the house 6 years ago, no leaks and nothing went missing.

great, not our dealings with them however

[Connaught Ranger]

Keep your BNP accusations to yourself pal, you know nothing about me :cantbeli:
If the cap fits wear it.p-)

[Eoin666]

If the cap fits wear it.p-)

hardy f**kin ha, anyone who disagrees with your view then is a racist BNP supporter, how original

[Connaught Ranger]

hardy f**kin ha, anyone who disagrees with your view then is a racist BNP supporter, how original

Your words not mine, old boy. p-)

[PeterG]

The norwegian police is warning the public against the explosion of criminal activity by romanians, in todays paper:

http://www.dagbladet.no/2009/06/23/nyheter/kriminalitet/innenriks/politi/bedrageri/6856434/

'romanian' is more or less synonymous with 'criminal' these days. It says in the article that law abiding romanians dispair at this, but it is the truth.

The police warns people not to stop for romanians who appear to need assistance on the roads - they are most likely criminals that will rob you. The public is encouraged to call the police straight away, rather than offer help.

In my city, Trondheim, the gypsies have more or less totally destroyed the city senter as far as i'm concerned. Beggars on all corners, and these bastards playing 'music' on their accordians EVERYWHERE.. It drives people nuts, you can't sit down and relax anywhere anymore. They especially like to mob the elderly, pestering them for money. I'm disgusted by them, and ashamed because of what foreigners here must think.

3 others were arrested a while ago, after being spotted by neighbours in my sisters garden, in possession of crowbars and knives. They lived nearby at a shelter for refugees. They are 'seeking refuge' here in Norway since they are 'persecuted' at home, i assume. Burglary and robbery, is their way of saying 'thanx' for the food, shelter and money they receive from us, i suppose.

If anyone can say a single thing in favor of why, oh why, we should accept a single one of these people to stay here, i would love to hear it. I find it impossible to come up with a single argument in their favor. Even the kosovo albanians and somalis, are a true blessing to our society, compared to these people.

[Derbedeu]

The norwegian police is warning the public against the explosion of criminal activity by romanians, in todays paper:

http://www.dagbladet.no/2009/06/23/nyheter/kriminalitet/innenriks/politi/bedrageri/6856434/

'romanian' is more or less synonymous with 'criminal' these days. It says in the article that law abiding romanians dispair at this, but it is the truth.

The police warns people not to stop for romanians who appear to need assistance on the roads - they are most likely criminals that will rob you. The public is encouraged to call the police straight away, rather than offer help.

In my city, Trondheim, the gypsies have more or less totally destroyed the city senter as far as i'm concerned. Beggars on all corners, and these bastards playing 'music' on their accordians EVERYWHERE.. It drives people nuts, you can't sit down and relax anywhere anymore. They especially like to mob the elderly, pestering them for money. I'm disgusted by them, and ashamed because of what foreigners here must think.

3 others were arrested a while ago, after being spotted by neighbours in my sisters garden, in possession of crowbars and knives. They lived nearby at a shelter for refugees. They are 'seeking refuge' here in Norway since they are 'persecuted' at home, i assume. Burglary and robbery, is their way of saying 'thanx' for the food, shelter and money they receive from us, i suppose.

If anyone can say a single thing in favor of why, oh why, we should accept a single one of these people to stay here, i would love to hear it. I find it impossible to come up with a single argument in their favor. Even the kosovo albanians and somalis, are a true blessing to our society, compared to these people.

WTF?! Look I'm not saying we're angels here, we certainly have our own share of criminals, but I'm getting sick and tired of having Gypsies become synonymous with Romanians!! A large portion of Roma might be Romanian by nationality but they're not Romanian ethnicity!

P.S. Just so there's no confusion this isn't an attack on you Peter, just on the stupid media who never bothers to differentiate between the two.

[PeterG]

WTF?! Look I'm not saying we're angels here, we certainly have our own share of criminals, but I'm getting sick and tired of having Gypsies become synonymous with Romanians!! A large portion of Roma might be Romanian by nationality but they're not Romanian ethnicity!

P.S. Just so there's no confusion this isn't an attack on you Peter, just on the stupid media who never bothers to differentiate between the two.

The article, and the cops, say nothing about 'gypsies' - only 'romanians'. The police expect a torrent of criminals from Romania this summer.

Is this a subject of public debate in Romania? That there is this perception of romanians? It would have been stunning, headline news here, if some foreign police had warned their citizens against interacting with norwegians, and rather call the cops right away!

[Connaught Ranger]

PeterG,

I understand your point, and frustration, but, as I and others have said, not all Romanians, or Roma are criminals, despite the way some people who post on here claim or would try and have us believe.Part of the misunderstanding is the Roma carry the passport of the country they live in, so when a Romanian passport is produced these people are referred to as "Romanian's" when in all fact they are members of the Roma ethnic minority living in Romanian.

If the problem, has become as immense as you infer, then your own country political strategy is wrong, the Roma are not being persecuted per se in Romania, this is an excuse being given for them to be allowed in to your country. And an excuse often swallowed by the targeted countrys N.G.O.'s, who believe all they are told.

Most of the Roma criminal gangs are well known and members documented by the Romanian Police, contact via InterPol is a very quick way to identify and ban from entering your country any known members of these gangs.Its also frustrating for the average Romanian to be blamed for the activity's of a few when the perpetrator is a Roma from Hungary, Bulgaria, Czech Republic etc..etc.. The Romanian Roma do not have a monopoly on the crime clans.

Connaught Ranger.

[Derbedeu]

The article, and the cops, say nothing about 'gypsies' - only 'romanians'. The police expect a torrent of criminals from Romania this summer.

Is this a subject of public debate in Romania? That there is this perception of romanians? It would have been stunning, headline news here, if some foreign police had warned their citizens against interacting with norwegians, and rather call the cops right away!

Connaught answered it pretty well. I just want to add that though I do not currently live in Romania, every time I have visited I feel quite safe. Crime seems to be for a large part no different then France, Italy, Germany, or any other Western European country I've been to. If there is a large group of pervasive Romanian criminals, that would be our politicians, but that's a different story p-)

[gazell]

And where was the "mick" taken out of Trianon in regards to this thread?:roll:

I must have misunderstood you then, however, you should be much more critical of Hungarian government propaganda spread about papers of all sorts on the Guard and all, they forever lie, that's fact. Have they ever told you, the Guard was building the damn together with Roma in the last big floods, as a result of which, the Roma's houses still stand there, that the guard never hurt anybody yet, however, some Roma almost lynched a guardist? I don't think so.

Be wary of reading such stuff. p-)

[Connaught Ranger]

I must have misunderstood you then, however, you should be much more critical of Hungarian government propaganda spread about papers of all sorts on the Guard and all, they forever lie, that's fact. Have they ever told you, the Guard was building the damn together with Roma in the last big floods, as a result of which, the Roma's houses still stand there, that the guard never hurt anybody yet, however, some Roma almost lynched a guardist? I don't think so.

Be wary of reading such stuff. p-)


As wary as being wary of, any unofficial group that feel the need to don brown military style uniforms, combat boots, while sporting short haircuts and sunglasses while poncing about waving flags intimidating the locals,

Seems some people never learn from history, silly me, I thought they were a bunch of right wing thugs, when in fact its the local right wing boy scouts association, playing at being Hungarian Arrow Cross & German N.S.D.A.P. re-enactors. :roll:

By the way "almost" never did achieve anything.rofl

[gazell]

As wary as being wary of, any unofficial group that feel the need to don brown military style uniforms, combat boots, while sporting short haircuts and sunglasses while poncing about waving flags intimidating the locals,

Seems some people never learn from history, silly me, I thought they were a bunch of right wing thugs, when in fact its the local right wing boy scouts association, playing at being Hungarian Arrow Cross & German N.S.D.A.P. re-enactors. :roll:

By the way "almost" never did achieve anything.rofl

You please yourself.:)

[Eoin666]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8114234.stm

The actions of a few morons no matter what race tend to reflect badly on the majority.

Connaught Ranger.

Think you missed a bit, jumping on all those p/c band wagons

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8114234.stm

'City Church, which last week provided temporary overnight shelter for the ethnic Roma, was targeted by vandals on Monday night.

Three men, all aged 20, were arrested in connection with the attack but later released.

Police are not linking this incident to the ongoing investigation into the attacks on Romanian families in south Belfast.

They said there was no indication that the attack on the church was hate or racially motivated'

oh and this little gem
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8106482.stm

'Some of the incidents related to disputes between Romanian families, it was a complicated picture that officers faced,' '

[gazell]

Anyhow, they want to go home now, as so often the case. Nobody much would have them, then some come to share the brains out about it to those who are struggling with accommodating millions of Roma.

Well, such attack on them is unheard of in Hungary. Just to set our Knight of Human Rights off.p-)

[Connaught Ranger]

Anyhow, they want to go home now, as so often the case. Nobody much would have them, then some come to share the brains out about it to those who are struggling with accommodating millions of Roma.

Well, such attack on them is unheard of in Hungary. Just to set our Knight of Human Rights off.p-)

Such a response would be off topic with regards the thread. :roll:

[marktigger]

was speaking to my mother who still lives in Northern ireland and the "facts" portrayed by the media aren't the full picture . 4 houses were targeted housing 114 romanians 60 of which were children. There is more to this story than racism.

[gazell]

was speaking to my mother who still lives in Northern ireland and the "facts" portrayed by the media aren't the full picture . 4 houses were targeted housing 114 romanians 60 of which were children. There is more to this story than racism.

What exactly?

[Hialeah]

Then of course, the gypsy are not a homogeneous group of people. The communities of different ethnic groups and history are rather different.

Some we have hardly any problems if at all, for a long time back. Others, much more so.

The Romani are in fact a single ethnic group divided into clans and subgroups, all having a common origin in the Indian subcontinent. They migrated into Europe in the middle ages. As far as the Irish travelers go, they're just a criminal subculture who have no right to be distinguished as seperate from other Irish.

[Connaught Ranger]

The Romani are in fact a single ethnic group divided into clans and subgroups, all having a common origin in the Indian subcontinent. They migrated into Europe in the middle ages. As far as the Irish travelers go, they're just a criminal subculture who have no right to be distinguished as seperate from other Irish.

There are many Irish Travelers who have lived among the Irish community for years and never had trouble with the Police or their neighbors, your comment is very ill thought out, condemning the actions of a few as common to the whole, when there are many Irish criminal families such as the Dunne family in Dublin etc..etc..who have no connection to Travelers whatsoever.

Connaught Ranger.

[gazell]

Such a response would be off topic with regards the thread. :roll:

Sorry, however, most gone off topic on this one with their personal views. Try to be more on it next time, myself.:)

[gazell]

The Romani are in fact a single ethnic group divided into clans and subgroups, all having a common origin in the Indian subcontinent. They migrated into Europe in the middle ages.

Well, an interesting point you are raising there. The common origin in the Indian sub-continent does necessarily mean a singular ethnic group? Even if that were the case in respect to Roma, their people in current Europe are not a homogenous entity. European democratic culture regards clans and nepotism as a crime against democracy, only in theory as judged by today's standards.p-)

So, what with those gypsy people who do not accept being called roma and do not speak romani? Are they just F%cked as a subgroup or whatever?

Is it by any chance cast you mean? Or am I off the mark?

[Hialeah]

Well, an interesting point you are raising there. The common origin in the Indian sub-continent does necessarily mean a singular ethnic group? Even if that were the case in respect to Roma, their people in current Europe are not a homogenous entity. European democratic culture regards clans and nepotism as a crime against democracy, only in theory as judged by today's standards.p-)

So, what with those gypsy people who do not accept being called roma and do not speak romani? Are they just F%cked as a subgroup or whatever?

Is it by any chance cast you mean? Or am I off the mark?

Well the Roma themselves are a subgroup of the Romani as far as I know, those from some groups who try to assimilate are generally frowned upon. The caste system didn't follow them to Europe but practices like bride kidnapping have.

[Lasse]

Ranger, Norways "problem" is that Romania (where these people have passports from) is a part of EU. They are almost free to travel to any country that is a part of EU without any trouble.

But as Peter said, in larger cities in Norway, they are on every corner, bus stop, malls, parks etc. If you take 5 for a smoke, they gang up around you and beg for money, smokes and everything you got. It's pretty painful to see, since most major cities have a city magazine which homeless, junkies etc. can sell so that they earn money, but these gypsies push them away. And these gypsies make money, belive me. I've seen some of their "bosses" (aka. the family father), with a wallet that has enough money to feed half of Africa.

I'd say that these people are also hit by racism in Norway, not very hard, but they sure as hell get a lot of crap during the weekends from drunk people. IMO, they deserve it, if they don't like it, leave it (as all Americans say).

[Hialeah]

There are many Irish Travelers who have lived among the Irish community for years and never had trouble with the Police or their neighbors, your comment is very ill thought out, condemning the actions of a few as common to the whole, when there are many Irish criminal families such as the Dunne family in Dublin etc..etc..who have no connection to Travelers whatsoever.

Connaught Ranger.

Travellers that aren't settled and living among a community with no conflict? I'd like an example. There are good travellers but saying there's only a few in a group well known for fraud and causing land disputes is fanciful. Crime families are different it's not a fair defense nor warrants a comparison between the two. The Travellers are a social group ****e to crime and that is that.

[Connaught Ranger]

Travellers that aren't settled and living among a community with no conflict? I'd like an example. There are good travellers but saying there's only a few in a group well known for fraud and causing land disputes is fanciful. Crime families are different it's not a fair defense nor warrants a comparison between the two. The Travellers are a social group ****e to crime and that is that.

Bull sh*t, there are many Travelers who travel and deal in items such as carpets, lino etc..etc.. there were a regular group from Dublin who toured the country while I lived there in the 1990's, selling quality items, keeping the site where they parked up very spotless, often arranging with the local county council to collect the rubbish from bins they brought with them. They also were good mannered, and sociable when they went for a pint with the locals.
Your attempt to paint them all with the same brush is farcical.

[Hialeah]

Bull sh*t, there are many Travelers who travel and deal in items such as carpets, lino etc..etc.. there were a regular group from Dublin who toured the country while I lived there in the 1990's, selling quality items, keeping the site where they parked up very spotless, often arranging with the local county council to collect the rubbish from bins they brought with them. They also were good mannered, and sociable when they went for a pint with the locals.
Your attempt to paint them all with the same brush is farcical.

Meh, sounds more like you became acquainted with people who run a fleamarket than Travellers. Plus I didn't "paint them all with the same brush", calling them a criminal group was unfair but in the US they are listed as that in many places. The Irish government calls them a social group and I agree more with that. The Travellers are provided with halting sites and still cause issues in places such as refusing to leave unless paid, feuds, and more. Sure crime exists everywhere and in all forms but the mobile kind isn't anymore acceptable.

[Connaught Ranger]

Meh, sounds more like you became acquainted with people who run a fleamarket than Travellers. Plus I didn't "paint them all with the same brush", calling them a criminal group was unfair but in the US they are listed as that in many places. The Irish government calls them a social group and I agree more with that. The Travellers are provided with halting sites and still cause issues in places such as refusing to leave unless paid, feuds, and more. Sure crime exists everywhere and in all forms but the mobile kind isn't anymore acceptable.

So traveling from town to town and going door to door in housing estates selling carpets, linoleum, etc.. etc.. equates to a flea-market! or another example the Ward family from Tuam, Co.Galway collecting scrap metal from a designated spot in a various town car-parks in Mayo & Galway on a weekly basis, and with the permission of the local council, and who by the way, is a Registered Business owner paying his taxes, are criminals :cantbeli:

Calling them, and here I quote you:
they're just a criminal subculture who have no right to be distinguished as seperate from other Irish. is a classic example of painting them all with the same brush.:roll:

I doubt very much that the U.S. would leave themselves open to a court case with regards discrimination, based on criminal profiling by calling all Irish Travelers criminals, (that would be akin to them describing all Italians as members of the mafia:roll:,) when we know there are criminal elements in most races social structures regardless of class.

Its such ignorance and poor judgment, so readily handed out by narrow-minded people, that has helped sustain the belief / myth that all such people, be it Roma, or Traveler are only criminals.

Perhaps people should look more closely at what their own families, for example were getting up to in their great-great grandfathers time, perusal of the old newspapers files at the local library will show the local weekly court cases and surprisingly not all crimes / incidents (as even in today) are committed by Roma, and Travelers, but, then again not to many people would want to admit that their families were involved in breaking the laws, which makes me wonder how the penal colonies of the 1800's were ever supplied with fresh bodies, they certainly were not all Irish Travelers or Gypsy's shipped off to the New Worldp-)

Connaught Ranger.

[The Balkan]

:cantbeli:. Please explain what crimes of other wtvr ethnic or cultural groups have to do with the topic of discussion?

These types of crimes are handled pretty well and it's inconceivable for local families in any European country to protest with machetes against "unfair justice". As well it's inconceivable to even think about excusing any local in Europe because his grandfathers or whoever else had troubles of any kind.

Gypsies do cause a lot of nuisance and street conflicts. Gypsies' clans are indeed involved in human trafficking, drug trade and thefts (credit card included). "Because of "cultural sensitivity" these crimes are "silenced" or isolated from identical cases elsewhere, and criminals are often freed due to bribes or relatives' pressure (Romania), or due to administrative pressure of so called "minority protections groups" everywhere.

Your argument about "lack of education" or "isolation" is also typical bs coming from "minority activists". Gypsies do systematically refuse to study, and, in any time they feel like it, they easily resort to violence against teachers and other students or to petty vandalism. No wonder nobody wants to side with them.

You live in Romania, who forbids to travel a bit and visit gypsies' schools (for example Hetea in Covasna)? Classes of two, three children (from 20+ on paper) are common. You can meditate there how the quality of schools or teachers can influence things. (it really doesn't, as both are better, being controlled from outside).


Exactly assholes like you who make this problem durable and push locals toward ultra right ideology.

So uhh..just curious? What's your take on why they are like that?

*waits*

[Lokos]

Exactly assholes like you who make this problem durable and push locals toward ultra right ideology.

I'm not singling you out, DS73, but, as an example, this is the sort of message that needs to stop being sent out.

In short, I'm in agreement with Connaught Ranger. You (a general term, I'm not referring to anyone in particular) don't like being stereotyped, so don't stereotype others. Roma criminals are criminals who happen to be Roma, not criminals because they're Roma. I'm really not trying to pull the Nazi card, here, but, historically, it's this sort of thinking that can culminate in something very, very ugly. Individualize your grievances. An entire people didn't pick your pocket while you were out one Saturday night. An individual did that.

Maybe Roma cultural norms are more conducive to that sort of failing (criminality), but this is a societal problem, and one that needs to be tackled constructively, with understanding and, ultimately, compassion.

Blaming 'them' is not a good starting point for anything reasonably tenable.

L.

[LordKitchener]

Has anyone other than ConnaughRanger met these nice, friendly gypsies? I don't think so.

The sensible among us have seen the destruction they do to areas they move into. A quick browse through the videos the gypos upload to youtube doesn't really support ConnaughtRanger's warped depiction of the 'noble' travellers.

[Connaught Ranger]

Has anyone other than ConnaughRanger met these nice, friendly gypsies? I don't think so.

The sensible among us have seen the destruction they do to areas they move into. A quick browse through the videos the gypos upload to youtube doesn't really support ConnaughtRanger's warped depiction of the 'noble' travellers.

YouTube is a visual version of Wiki and a Major Fail to back up your

xenophobic arguments sunshine :roll:

[SkyUS]

Has anyone other than ConnaughRanger met these nice, friendly gypsies? I don't think so.


I did meet and hang out with them bunch of times in Poland. I had quite a lot of gypsy friends too. And no we didn't pillage or steal or rape anybody.

I wholeheartly agree and support what Connaught Ranger and lokos said.

[Connaught Ranger]

:cantbeli:. Please explain what crimes of other wtvr ethnic or cultural groups have to do with the topic of discussion?

Its very relative because you and others, are citing the "fact" that only Roma commit crimes.:roll:

These types of crimes are handled pretty well and it's inconceivable for local families in any European country to protest with machetes against "unfair justice". As well it's inconceivable to even think about excusing any local in Europe because his grandfathers or whoever else had troubles of any kind.

We see every day on Romanian tv, the use of farm implements, forks, spades, axes by non-Roma, or is that imagination:roll:

Gypsies do cause a lot of nuisance and street conflicts. Gypsies' clans are indeed involved in human trafficking, drug trade and thefts (credit card included). "Because of "cultural sensitivity" these crimes are "silenced" or isolated from identical cases elsewhere, and criminals are often freed due to bribes or relatives' pressure (Romania), or due to administrative pressure of so called "minority protections groups" everywhere.

And no other Race, culture, social group is involved in crime :roll:

Your argument about "lack of education" or "isolation" is also typical bs coming from "minority activists". Gypsies do systematically refuse to study, and, in any time they feel like it, they easily resort to violence against teachers and other students or to petty vandalism. No wonder nobody wants to side with them.

Most of the violence shown on & reported Romanian TV from the classroom is committed by non-Roma, punks who want to be famous on YouTube for 5 minutes. However what do you expect people to do with their lives when they have no proper education, or cannot get work because they are first and foremost "Roma", how many bosses do youknow, who will hire them because of the colour of their skin and ethnic origin?

You live in Romania, who forbids to travel a bit and visit gypsies' schools (for example Hetea in Covasna)? Classes of two, three children (from 20+ on paper) are common. You can meditate there how the quality of schools or teachers can influence things. (it really doesn't, as both are better, being controlled from outside).
You might put that in bold in English so its understandable.:roll:

However their families do feel its better to have the children at home, in the fields working or in the town begging and involved in petty theft for them its a matter of basic survival, the same mentality applies with the uneducated white classes who turn to crime for a living, this is not an excuse but a fact, and shows a basic fail in the way such people are handled by society.

I well remember when the "Soviet Germans" were repatriated to the area of Bavaria, Germany where I lived between 1997 & 2003, street crime, car theft, drug dealing, burgalry, prostetution was on the up, because these people, mainly the teenagers, who refused to get an education fell back on their old habits from their time in the old Soviet Union where they were treated little better than Roma.

Exactly assholes like you who make this problem durable and push locals toward ultra right ideology.

Resulting to insults to back up your argument, because somebody has a diffeant opinion to your narrowminded view just shows your true colours.

Connaught Ranger.

[gazell]

The norwegian police is warning the public against the explosion of criminal activity by romanians, in todays paper:

http://www.dagbladet.no/2009/06/23/nyheter/kriminalitet/innenriks/politi/bedrageri/6856434/

'romanian' is more or less synonymous with 'criminal' these days. It says in the article that law abiding romanians dispair at this, but it is the truth.

The police warns people not to stop for romanians who appear to need assistance on the roads - they are most likely criminals that will rob you. The public is encouraged to call the police straight away, rather than offer help.

In my city, Trondheim, the gypsies have more or less totally destroyed the city senter as far as i'm concerned. Beggars on all corners, and these bastards playing 'music' on their accordians EVERYWHERE.. It drives people nuts, you can't sit down and relax anywhere anymore. They especially like to mob the elderly, pestering them for money. I'm disgusted by them, and ashamed because of what foreigners here must think.

3 others were arrested a while ago, after being spotted by neighbours in my sisters garden, in possession of crowbars and knives. They lived nearby at a shelter for refugees. They are 'seeking refuge' here in Norway since they are 'persecuted' at home, i assume. Burglary and robbery, is their way of saying 'thanx' for the food, shelter and money they receive from us, i suppose.

If anyone can say a single thing in favor of why, oh why, we should accept a single one of these people to stay here, i would love to hear it. I find it impossible to come up with a single argument in their favor. Even the kosovo albanians and somalis, are a true blessing to our society, compared to these people.

These people will be most likely Roma, Peter, does make no difference which country they come from. CR is right we all have our own criminals, however, this is is surpassing imagination, anyhow, they have stollen big part our country to bits.rofl

[gazell]

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/d5vlco4yvSc&feature=related

Just about, I've gotta bend.p-)

[gazell]

'Exactly assholes like you who make this problem durable and push locals toward ultra right ideology.'

Quoted for truth. Exactly they have been immigrating to Hungary from neighbouring countries, where police actually acts on them. They spit on policemen here, apart from else, then you wonder why people like the Guard.

[Connaught Ranger]

'Exactly assholes like you who make this problem durable and push locals toward ultra right ideology.'

Quoted for truth. Exactly they have been immigrating to Hungary from neighbouring countries, where police actually acts on them. They spit on policemen here, apart from else, then you wonder why people like the Guard.

Do I hear an echo in here? :roll:

My type of thinking, (which is in opposition to others) is a poor excuse to justify an ultra rightwing racist organisation, seems some people have learned nothing from 1939-1945.:roll:

But the "xenophobesunitedfanboyclub" are sticking together.:roll:

Connaught Ranger.

[gazell]

Do I hear an echo in here? :roll:

My type of thinking, (which is in opposition to others) is a poor excuse to justify an ultra rightwing racist organisation, seems some people have learned nothing from 1939-1945.:roll:

But the "xenophobesunitedfanboyclub" are sticking together.:roll:

Connaught Ranger.

You might or might not. I personally think they are a symptom. If the causes are not addressed, one cannot achieve anything. One can shout racist or shout they are symptom, won't solve anything. The situation needs changing.

I do not think it can be changed soon enough though, I hope, I'm wrong.

[RIPTIDE]

Bull sh*t, there are many Travelers who travel and deal in items such as carpets, lino etc..etc.. there were a regular group from Dublin who toured the country while I lived there in the 1990's, selling quality items, keeping the site where they parked up very spotless, often arranging with the local county council to collect the rubbish from bins they brought with them. They also were good mannered, and sociable when they went for a pint with the locals.
Your attempt to paint them all with the same brush is farcical.
Yep. I got myself some very nice wood flooring a year back from some of them. Good stuff too at a decent price.

Just don't ask for a VAT invoice though. p-)

[Securistu]

and there's numerous romas serving in these armies. and they serve their countries with as much honour as we do. .

Gypsies serving in the army? I dont think a single gypsie will go and volunteer ,in the romanian army at least.
They have their own armies.Gypsies armed with ninja swords and bats engage sometimes in street fights between them.
They will never get integrated in the society and you know why? because they dont want to!
90% of their population is full of f..k-ups.I may be to optimistic with that percentage, i never met to this date a honest working gypsie.

[johanness]

If both sides respect each other ...

"When the Transylvanian Saxons fled Weilau in 1944 they left behind not only their farms but also their neighbours with whom they had lived in close contact for more than 200 years: their gypsies. Today it is the gypsies, of all people, who ensure that the German tradition lives on."

http://www.eurotopics.net/en/magazin/gesellschaft-verteilerseite/roma_in_europa_2007_09/weilau-unger-artikel/1

[The Balkan]

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/the_way_we_live/article6611276.ece

[gazell]

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/the_way_we_live/article6611276.ece

A nice, pc quote from a whatever purpose book. What we all would like to see. Reality is much more violent though.

[Narvaresearch]

“We are OK, we are safe now,” Maria said in the leisure centre. “But we want to go home because right now we are not safe here.

“We want to go back home to Romania, everybody right now does.

Job done...

Using violence to promote xenophic attitudes and displace people. The civilized west at it again! woot

Something I also find interesting. The Romanians are always complaining about Roma, but they have neither the most amount of Roma, nor the most by percentage. Could it be a Romanian scapegoat?

[gazell]

Using violence to promote xenophic attitudes and displace people. The civilized west at it again! woot

Something I also find interesting. The Romanians are always complaining about Roma, but they have neither the most amount of Roma, nor the most by percentage. Could it be a Romanian scapegoat?

They have plenty of roma, in the millions, just like a few other Eastern-European countries. Also in the situation, that the words, Romanian and Roma gets mixed up by some. Not a real problem any more though, criminals from the East it is, regardless.

I'd agree about the civilised west. What was it , some 110 Roma that Berlin could not possibly cope with recently? Ha-ha.

[Narvaresearch]

They have plenty of roma, in the millions, just like a few other Eastern-European countries. Also in the situation, that the words, Romanian and Roma gets mixed up by some. Not a real problem any more though, criminals from the East it is, regardless.

I'd agree about the civilised west. What was it , some 110 Roma that Berlin could not possibly cope with recently? Ha-ha.

See, they seem to just be the scapegoat. There are only a total of up to five million Romani in the entire world. The highest population of people of Romani origin is Spain, with around 650,000.

These "millions" you are talking about seem to be a mixture of people of Romani origin, Romanians themselves, and other eastern-European people escaping poverty in their own nations.

It would seem the European community is calling any darker skinned criminal a Romani. :roll:

[gazell]

See, they seem to just be the scapegoat. There are only a total of up to five million Romani in the entire world. The highest population of people of Romani origin is Spain, with around 650,000.

These "millions" you are talking about seem to be a mixture of people of Romani origin, Romanians themselves, and other eastern-European people escaping poverty in their own nations.

It would seem the European community is calling any darker skinned criminal a Romani. :roll:

You have to explain those numbers of yours to a lot of places, including the European Roma Association, or whatever they are exactly called, it fails me at the moment, you understand, we have hundreds of bleeming roma this and that. Most doing nothing.

There are more Roma just in Hungary than you quote for Spain, easily, about a few millions, both in Bulgaria and Romania.:) Over 10 millions in Europe.:)

[Narvaresearch]

You have to explain those numbers of yours to a lot of places, including the European Roma Association, or whatever they are exactly called, it fails me at the moment, you understand, we have hundreds of bleeming roma this and that. Most doing nothing.

There are more Roma just in Hungary than you quote for Spain, easily, about a few millions, both in Bulgaria and Romania.:) Over 10 millions in Europe.:)

My sources are a bit out-dated, but they're from 2001/2. I doubt the growth has been that rapid.

http://www.eumap.org/reports/2002/eu/international/sections/spain/2002_m_spain.pdf (spain)

http://www.edrc.ro/recensamant.jsp?regiune_id=0&judet_id=1579&localitate_id=0 (Romania)

http://www.nsi.bg/Census_e/Ethnos.htm (Bulgaria)

http://www.nepszamlalas.hu/eng/volumes/06/00/tabeng/4/load01_11_0.html (Hungary)

As I said, I believe they are using the term Romani a little too liberally. That is why the stereotypes are sticking harder and faster.

[Narvaresearch]

I've been avoiding this thread, but I felt I had to post a story regarding Romani I heard today from an old woman whom I know.
This old widower who is in her 70's or 80's was robbed by a gang of 6 Romani gyspies. She owns a Garden centre at her house, I go there sometimes to get flowers and plants for my own mother. Well it seems 6 Romani turned up 3 women and 3 men, the men pretended they were looking for plants and the women went into the old womans house and robbed the safe and turned the place over. The Gardai (Irish Police) eventually got them all bar one, the court case hasn't come up yet, and to top it all off, one of the scum turned up a week later asking for a job.
The only Romani I knew prior to this were the local aslyum seekers and they didn't impress me with the way they acted around the place. I can say this for sure, and I told the old woman, that if they ever come back again to phone me and I'll be round with a few buddies to even out the numbers.

So did she ask them if they were Romani? Because they (in most cases) look only eastern-European. They have no distinct features unless they were speaking a Romani dialect. I'd be interested to know...:roll:

[Stormz_STA]

..Because they (in most cases) look only eastern-European...

And what do Eastern-Europeans look like?

[Narvaresearch]

And what do Eastern-Europeans look like?

In general darker complection, darker hair, and darker eye color than in western Europe.


The Police said they were Romani

In that case I'd be interested to know how they found that out. I have a sneaky suspicion they mistakenly call many Romani (that's not saying it isn't a mistake in this case).

My concern is, "The thing", have you thought if the same thing was done by white native northern Irish? Would you be willing to gather a group of friends and do the same? Although I can't say "I hope" for any act of violence, I hope the feelings are not restricted to "Romani".

[Stormz_STA]

In general darker complection, darker hair, and darker eye color than in western Europe.

In general you're a fvcking tool.

[Narvaresearch]

In general you're a fvcking tool.

How is that? Care to explain your point of view instead of throwing random insults? Might add some credibility to your argument.

[Narvaresearch]

Nope, Im just Angry about the group of people who have done this crime, as I said I didn't really know about any Romani before this or their wrong doings. There are plenty of Northern Irish thugs that come down to Southern Ireland and do that sorta stuff as well, so yes I'd gather a group of people to defend against them too if it came to it. Thats the problem with modern society as well, people unwilling to stick up for the correct principles. Robbing an old woman and then coming back to scare the living sh**e outta her a week later is pushing those boundries too far. If Romani want to come here and make a better life for themseleves then so be it, but don't steal, rob and abuse the host nation.

I agree, though I don't see a difference between natives who commit crimes versus immigrants (and glad to see you seemingly don't either). In this case, both disgusting...

[gazell]

It would seem the European community is calling any darker skinned criminal a Romani.

Because they (in most cases) look only eastern-European. They have no distinct features unless they were speaking a Romani dialect.

[Eastern- Europeans look like] In general darker complection, darker hair, and darker eye color than in western Europe.



You are doing well.
Most gypsy people in Hungary do not speak Romani.

'There are ten to twelve million Roma and Travellers in Europe' from:
http://www.coe.int/T/DG3/RomaTravellers/Default_en.asp

[Fullaut0]

In general darker complection, darker hair, and darker eye color than in western Europe.



Goddam! I must be Scandinavian.

You idiot.

[Narvaresearch]

I'd venture to say skin is less noticeable, though yes, in general, they have darker hair and eyes. Seems I struck a nerve...

[Stormz_STA]

Narvaresearch, what are you? some kind of a german eugenics expert?

[Proudgrandson]

So did she ask them if they were Romani? Because they (in most cases) look only eastern-European. They have no distinct features unless they were speaking a Romani dialect. I'd be interested to know...:roll:

The Romani are descended from people who migrated from Central Asia or India (had they cut all the hedges there and done all the driveways?p-)) So they would have dark hair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_language

[Narvaresearch]

Narvaresearch, what are you? some kind of a german eugenics expert?

No, and I don't claim to be. Do you think Africans have, in general a darker complection and darker hair/eyes?

It's not about being an expert, it's about having eyes. The contrast isn't so great in south-eastern Europe. I'm not saying there are a bunch of really dark skinned people. I think you know what I mean, but I'm not going to argue with you anymore on such a topic. Fact of the matter is, I don't think it's as easy to spot a Romani versus an eastern-European as many make it out to be.

[Stormz_STA]

I don't think it's as easy to spot a Romani versus an eastern-European as many make it out to be.

Well, you're wrong. Stop talking about things you obviously have no idea about.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Well, you're wrong. Stop talking about things you obviously have no idea about.No he does have a point I have worked with a few Slovakians who looked like they were Roma but were not.

[Stormz_STA]

I have worked with a few Slovakians who looked like they were Roma but were not.

And that means all/most Eastern-Europeans are dark-skinned and/or similar in complexion to Gypsies? Please, stop talking nonsense.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

And that means all/most Eastern-Europeans are dark-skinned and/or similar in complexion to Gypsies? Please, stop talking nonsense.Not at all but it can often be hard to tell.

[Stormz_STA]

It can often be hard to tell.

It's often very hard to tell the difference between Roma people and the the Americans, the Germans, the Scots and others.

[Narvaresearch]

It's often very hard to tell the difference between Roma people and the the Americans, the Germans, the Scots and others.

Some sure. You're helping prove my point.

[Stormz_STA]

Some sure. You're helping prove my point.

You were talking about Eastern Europeans only so no, I'm not helpig prove your point.

[Narvaresearch]

You were talking about Eastern Europeans only so no, I'm not helpig prove your point.

Yeah, you're proving it's too hard to tell just from looks (even if you are just being sarcastic). They don't have distinct looks that make them noticeable from onlookers as Romani.

[Stormz_STA]

Yeah, you're proving it's too hard to tell just from looks (even if you are just being sarcastic). They don't have distinct looks that make them noticeable from onlookers as Romani.

Again, you were talking about Eastern Europeans only. You were saying they have darker complection, darker hair, and darker eye color than in western Europe. And that's not true. So many people in "the West" look like Gypsies and yet you don't say it's hard to tell the difference between people from so called "Western Europe" and Gyspies.

[Narvaresearch]

Again, you were talking about Eastern Europeans only. You were saying they have darker complection, darker hair, and darker eye color than in western Europe. And that's not true. So many people in "the West" look like Gypsies and yet you don't say it's hard to tell the difference between people from so called "Western Europe" and Gyspies.

Of course it's not a hard-set rule. In general I do think they have darker hair and eye color. Another reason I say eastern-Europeans is because of the interbreeding with Romani that I'm sure has taken place. Facial features that may be more ****e to eastern-Europeans have been adapted by those with Romani heritage and vice versa and I think this is why western-Europeans call any eastern-European immigrant a "Romani". They're a scapegoat.

[Stormz_STA]

the interbreeding with Romani that I'm sure has taken place.

You know this for a fact or did you just make this one up? You seem to know very little about Gypsies if you're saying such things.

[Narvaresearch]

You know this for a fact or did you just make this one up? You seem to know very little about Gypsies if you're saying such things.

You seem to know very little about social interactions if you think there has been absolutely no interbreeding in the past 1000-1500 years.

[Stormz_STA]

there has been absolutely no interbreeding in the past 1000-1500 years.

Did I say that?

[Narvaresearch]

Did I say that?

Then why would you question my statement saying that there has been interbreeding? And no, I have to article or study to suggest my assertion is correct, but I do have some idea of social interactions between migratory peoples.

[Stormz_STA]

Then why would you question my statement saying that there has been interbreeding?

I'm sure there have been ****** contacts between the Gypsies and other people but bear in mind that gypsy society is a closed one and these contacts couldn't have influenced neither side to the extent that one side would inherit biological features from the other.

[Connaught Ranger]

I've been avoiding this thread, but I felt I had to post a story regarding Romani I heard today from an old woman whom I know.
This old widower who is in her 70's or 80's was robbed by a gang of 6 Romani gyspies. She owns a Garden centre at her house, I go there sometimes to get flowers and plants for my own mother. Well it seems 6 Romani turned up 3 women and 3 men, the men pretended they were looking for plants and the women went into the old womans house and robbed the safe and turned the place over. The Gardai (Irish Police) eventually got them all bar one, the court case hasn't come up yet, and to top it all off, one of the scum turned up a week later asking for a job.
The only Romani I knew prior to this were the local aslyum seekers and they didn't impress me with the way they acted around the place. I can say this for sure, and I told the old woman, that if they ever come back again to phone me and I'll be round with a few buddies to even out the numbers. Quite the tough guy rent a vigilante. :roll:

Whats a Romani? :roll:

there are Romanians the ethnic race of Romania,

and there are Roma (also known as tSigani, Gypsies, etc..etc..) descendant from an old immigrant ethnic minority, from the area of todays India & Pakistan, who today live in Romania, and carry Romanian ID Cards, and Romanian Passports (They are also members of the Roma in Bulgaria, Hungary, France, Germany, Great Britain, Norway, Sweden Finland, Spain etc etc who have been established in European countries since before the Middle Ages. And who carry the appropriate national identity cards and passports of the countries they were born in.)

Connaught Ranger.

[Stormz_STA]

Whats a Romani? :roll:

Here you go.

http://www.romani.org/

[gazell]

I'd venture to say skin is less noticeable, though yes, in general, they have darker hair and eyes. Seems I struck a nerve...

You did not struck a nerve. You are nuts. You proved yourself the point you came out to complain about. Then turns out you think all Eastern-Europeans are Roma.:cantbeli:

May I remind you of a few things?

Eastern-Europe is a geo-political entity, with several countries and much more many ethnic groups in it.

On the basis of your 'dark skin, dark hair, dark eye racial profiling', let's say the Spanish much more look like Roma, than a lot of E-U-ian ethnic groups.

When you come to your 1000-1500 years of history, you again just prove a tool as before mentioned. Gypsy people have been living in Eastern Europe for about 500 years.

A lot of mixings though, during that time. Red-head gypsy, blue-eyed gypsy, all exist. As pointed out, you have not much understanding of what you are on about. What you have is an at least patronising view of E-U-ian people, putting them all in a sack of some sorts.

[hulaku]

"Although the Romani people are often referred to as "Gypsies" (and prefer to be called by their more proper designation, Roma), not all "gypsies" or nomadic peoples are Roma. The Roma are descendants of the ancient warrior classes of Northern India, particularly the Punjab, and they are identifiable by their language, religion, and customs, which can be directly linked to those of the Punjabi in northern India".


Being a Punjabi from Northern India im happy that we've found some long lost cousinsp-)

http://www.romani.org/

Roma Strong!11111!

[Narvaresearch]

You did not struck a nerve. You are nuts. You proved yourself the point you came out to complain about. Then turns out you think all Eastern-Europeans are Roma.:cantbeli:

I do not think all eastern-Europeans are Roma. I think in many cases it's difficult to tell who is Roma and who is not because they have assimilated over the centuries into European society (whichever it may be).


On the basis of your 'dark skin, dark hair, dark eye racial profiling', let's say the Spanish much more look like Roma, than a lot of E-U-ian ethnic groups.

You are saying my profiling is an invalid argument, yet you seem to being the same. Nonetheless, yes I think it might be difficult to distinguish between them.


When you come to your 1000-1500 years of history, you again just prove a tool as before mentioned. Gypsy people have been living in Eastern Europe for about 500 years.

I am sorry, I believe you're wrong:


Linguistic and genetic evidence indicates the Romanies originated from the Indian subcontinent, emigrating from India towards the northwest no earlier than the 11th century. The Romani are generally believed to have originated in central India, possibly in the modern Indian state of Rajasthan, migrating to northwest India (the Punjab region) around 250 B.C. In the centuries spent here, there may have been close interaction with such established groups as the Rajputs and the Jats. Their subsequent westward migration, possibly in waves, is believed to have occurred between 500 A.D. and 1000 A.D.


A lot of mixings though, during that time. Red-head gypsy, blue-eyed gypsy, all exist. As pointed out, you have not much understanding of what you are on about. What you have is an at least patronising view of E-U-ian people, putting them all in a sack of some sorts.

I have absolutely no patronising view of eastern-European people. I have many eastern-European friends and I was considering schooling in Bulgaria. My only point was to say I believe people of Romani origin are being targeted for scapegoating across Europe.

[Narvaresearch]

whats a Romani....to me they are the scum, that robbed my old friend.

That's the kind of 'lumping together' that is no good. :|

[gazell]

I do not think all eastern-Europeans are Roma.
You did not manage to prove that. Quite the contrary, anyhow, you came out here to blame Romanians about blaming the Roma for their bad image abroad being bastards, then you classify all E-U-ians as Roma. Do you copy?
You are saying my profiling is an invalid argument, yet you seem to being the same.

No, I was trying to show that you are talking b&llocks.

I am sorry, I believe you're wrong:

Yes, I know, they set off - well, the first wave around 11th century -, they arrived in the 14 hundreds, they did not come on airoplanes, you know.

I have absolutely no patronising view of eastern-European people. I have many eastern-European friends and I was considering schooling in Bulgaria. My only point was to say I believe people of Romani origin are being targeted for scapegoating across Europe.

I think, we all know now, what you mean. Go back to my first point.

[Narvaresearch]

Why should a society that is so welcoming have it's hospitality slapped back in it's face by a few rouge foreigners that have no other desire to be here other than to committ crime..?

They shouldn't. Punish them like any other. I would like to see the Irish newspaper, though and know what a "traditional Irish name" is. I mean, I'm an American born and raised and my name is far from "traditional".

[The Balkan]

A nice, pc quote from a whatever purpose book. What we all would like to see. Reality is much more violent though.

Yea, you really should've read the whole article from a guy who lived with them.

Alot of the talk in this thread is basicly identical to old additues to Jews and Blacks. Full of chauvenism. One day people will cringe at this too. And before any smartass gives me some sob story, I know Roma, they are all throughout the Balkan, and they've never been a problem. Never waged war, never commited genocides or ethnic cleansing so yea, you might say the "natives" are the bigger problem.

[Eoin666]

They shouldn't. Punish them like any other. I would like to see the Irish newspaper, though and know what a "traditional Irish name" is. I mean, I'm an American born and raised and my name is far from "traditional".

Well if it's a Kelly, McGuiness, O'Neal etc I'd hazard a guess of them being Irish, if it's an Ilescu or whatever I say maybe not :roll:

There is no traditional 'American' name as you're all descended from immigrants, except maybe a Goyathlay or Red Cloud, but in rural Ireland it's obviously different

[Connaught Ranger]

Yeah when it comes to trying to defend an OLD WOMAN whom I know and consider a friend then yes I would ACT THE BL**DY tough man. I have nothing to justify to you, whats a Romani....to me they are the scum, that robbed my old friend.
Sit on your high horse of morality if you want, I'm sure you'd let your elderly neighbours get robbed and scared out of their wits......! SHFU.

OH, did I hit a nerve Mr. Vigilante sir, woot

Actually, my neighbors, here in Transylvania, would be more scared of the

non-Roma, home grown Romanian "Mafia".rofl

[Derbedeu]

OH, did I hit a nerve Mr. Vigilante sir, woot

Actually, my neighbors, here in Transylvania, would be more scared of the

non-Roma, home grown Romanian "Mafia".rofl

Yes, cause the Romanian "Mafia" is world-renowned for their criminal acumen, while gypsies are really saints who are unfairly maligned by everyone...:roll:

[Connaught Ranger]

Yes, cause the Romanian "Mafia" is world-renowned for their criminal acumen, while gypsies are really saints who are unfairly maligned by everyone...:roll:

I, amongst some others, who have posted on this thread, have pointed out time and again, that not all members of the Roma are criminals, (the same applies to any other race) by your half-arsed comment, it seems that point has escaped your notice as well. :roll:

[Derbedeu]

I, amongst some others, who have posted on this thread, have pointed out time and again, that not all members of the Roma are criminals, (the same applies to any other race) by your half-arsed comment, it seems that point has escaped your notice as well. :roll:


Reread my post on page 5. I never once stated that I believe that all Roma are criminals. To do so is absurd. However, I also find it telling that you are so quick to always dismiss any crime committed by them as being nothing more than a fabrication by racists. Guess what, the Roma do have a statistically higher crime rate and it has to do with their culture, not their race. Remember this case?:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3152228.stm

She was a victim of her own people's culture and traditions. As a result she won't ever get the chance to reach whatever potential she has as I doubt she's even allowed by her family to get an education. And this is not an isolated event either. Here's what UNICEF has to say about Roma in Romania:


There are a number of social, economic, cultural and systemic causes resulting in non-enrolment, non-attendance and school drop-out among Roma children. Some child-related causes include: precarious health conditions, low learning motivation, gender-based differences (according to which girls get married early, and their social role is to raise children and take care of the family), poor self image and school results. Teachers report that some two thirds of Roma children who have dropped out showed a lack of interest in school, over 20% have attitudes of rejection or repugnance, and only 10% have a positive attitude. (Source: Roma Children Participation in Education – Problems, Solutions and Actors; 2002).http://www.unicef.org/romania/children_1604.html

All this has nothing to do with their race but a culture that looks down on conforming to the societal norms of today. And the sad thing is that it only perpetuates their tragic situation by creating a cycle where new generations are stymied from from the start by their own families. Without an education, what sort of chance do they have of being able to lead normal and productive lives?

Are we as a country completely blameless for the Roma's situation? No, but don't make it out as if the Roma are blameless, because they're not. And ultimately I am a firm believer that a positive and supportive familial structure goes a long way towards bringing about the success of one's children, regardless of how rich or poor one might be.

[Connaught Ranger]

Gypsies serving in the army? I dont think a single gypsie will go and volunteer ,in the romanian army at least.
They have their own armies.Gypsies armed with ninja swords and bats engage sometimes in street fights between them.
They will never get integrated in the society and you know why? because they dont want to!
90% of their population is full of f..k-ups.I may be to optimistic with that percentage, i never met to this date a honest working gypsie.


British born members of the Roma, gave sterling service to the U.K. in World War 1. (1914 - 1919)

From left to right:-

Picture 1. Noah Willett.

Picture 2. Ambeline "Sonner" Barney and George Bowers.

Picture 3. Ernest Hughes (the shorter of the 2 men) his mother (seated front) and his 2 sisters. Sam Frankham (the tall one) married Ernest,s sister (seated front left).

Picture 4. Close up of Ernest Hughes and Sam Frankham.

Picture 5. Walter White , Vandelow Bowers and Jimmy White.

Picture credits: "montbrehain"

also worth a look at:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/kent/romany_roots/

They also served in the military in WW2.

Connaught Ranger.

[gazell]

Yea, you really should've read the whole article from a guy who lived with them.

Alot of the talk in this thread is basicly identical to old additues to Jews and Blacks. Full of chauvenism. One day people will cringe at this too. And before any smartass gives me some sob story, I know Roma, they are all throughout the Balkan, and they've never been a problem. Never waged war, never commited genocides or ethnic cleansing so yea, you might say the "natives" are the bigger problem.

I really did read the article. All I'm saying, it seems to be a quote from a book, which I have not read as a whole, so cannot pass judgement on the whole piece.

I am pleased for you. As I so many times stated, there are a lot of Roma communities and people there is no problem of any sorts with in this world. We also have here a lot of immigrants from neighbouring countries, quite a few as a result of the recent war.

We do happen to have a lot of problems, this is no racism, just a fact of life.

Yes, the 'natives', you mean majority population really here, I suppose, are a big problem, much bigger than the minority. Should prosecute them. They provide benefits, grants, free all sorts and on top of that the b&stards don't fancy being robbed and stabbed, they should be banned.

[Narvaresearch]

Reread my post on page 5. I never once stated that I believe that all Roma are criminals. To do so is absurd. However, I also find it telling that you are so quick to always dismiss any crime committed by them as being nothing more than a fabrication by racists. Guess what, the Roma do have a statistically higher crime rate and it has to do with their culture, not their race. Remember this case?:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3152228.stm

She was a victim of her own people's culture and traditions. As a result she won't ever get the chance to reach whatever potential she has as I doubt she's even allowed by her family to get an education. And this is not an isolated event either. Here's what UNICEF has to say about Roma in Romania:

http://www.unicef.org/romania/children_1604.html

All this has nothing to do with their race but a culture that looks down on conforming to the societal norms of today. And the sad thing is that it only perpetuates their tragic situation by creating a cycle where new generations are stymied from from the start by their own families. Without an education, what sort of chance do they have of being able to lead normal and productive lives?

Are we as a country completely blameless for the Roma's situation? No, but don't make it out as if the Roma are blameless, because they're not. And ultimately I am a firm believer that a positive and supportive familial structure goes a long way towards bringing about the success of one's children, regardless of how rich or poor one might be.

Well the cycle can be changed by education as you have mentioned, but I have seen no attempts by the Romanian government to encourage education in poorer regions (which spawns criminality). Same thing happens in America - black men are not making up a higher percentage of criminals in the U.S because they're black, it's because of economic status. And PLENTY of whites commit crimes too.

Same applies to radical Muslims - provide well rounded education instead of allowing them to fall victim to madrassas.

And for the record, whoever was claiming there are less native names in the paper; I do believe these sound pretty native to me and they are Roma: Noah Willett, Ambeline "Sonner" Barney, Ernest Hughes, Sam Frankham, Walter White , Vandelow Bowers and Jimmy White and George Bowers.

So do Roma have names specific to ONLY Roma, or are they closer related to eastern-European names? Maybe you see foreign names in the paper, but I don't think they're all automatically Roma....

[DS73]

:cantbeli:. Please explain what crimes of other wtvr ethnic or cultural groups have to do with the topic of discussion? Its very relative because you and others, are citing the "fact" that only Roma commit crimes.:roll:
Who stated that?. There are plenty of problems in a quite of few areas in every country. "white trash" is not just void expression.
This thread is not about them, it's even not about xenophobia well entrenched in northern Irish society, it's about roma nomad groups and how quickly they become hated whenever they go.




These types of crimes are handled pretty well and it's inconceivable for local families in any European country to protest with machetes against "unfair justice". As well it's inconceivable to even think about excusing any local in Europe because his grandfathers or whoever else had troubles of any kind.We see every day on Romanian tv, the use of farm implements, forks, spades, axes by non-Roma, or is that imagination:roll:Are you saying that romanian families protest against arrest of their relatives with "forks" etc.? When, where?



Gypsies do cause a lot of nuisance and street conflicts. Gypsies' clans are indeed involved in human trafficking, drug trade and thefts (credit card included). "Because of "cultural sensitivity" these crimes are "silenced" or isolated from identical cases elsewhere, and criminals are often freed due to bribes or relatives' pressure (Romania), or due to administrative pressure of so called "minority protections groups" everywhere.
And no other Race, culture, social group is involved in crime :roll:Where did I say that? If you look in my post history I actually say that all ethnic groups have some specialization in crimes.

I say here , that unlike any state corruption in "normal" cases when locals are involved, the crime cases involving "minorities" suddenly are taken "specially" and "sensibly". You know because they "are oppressed people".


Most of the violence shown on & reported Romanian TV from the classroom is committed by non-Roma, punks who want to be famous on YouTube for 5 minutes.
It's shown everywhere in all countries, as it's common international problem existing everywhere. What this showoff violence has to do in this thread?
I am talking about money extortion from smaller kids, I am talking about threatening teachers by adult relatives, I am talking about arson etc.


However what do you expect people to do with their lives when they have no proper education, or cannot get work because they are first and foremost "Roma", how many bosses do youknow, who will hire them because of the colour of their skin and ethnic origin?
there are plenty of "ex gypsies" who are settled and live "white trash" or not, but typical "local" life in balkan countries, so there are plenty of romanians, bulgarians etc. who have "dark" skin. They are not discriminated. Why?


You live in Romania, who forbids to travel a bit and visit gypsies' schools (for example Hetea in Covasna)? Classes of two, three children (from 20+ on paper) are common. You can meditate there how the quality of schools or teachers can influence things. (it really doesn't, as both are better, being controlled from outside).You might put that in bold in English so its understandable.:roll: If my ingrlish is very unclear please point where, you can do it with PM. Everyday I use 3+languages and none of them I know well enough.


I well remember when the "Soviet Germans" were repatriated to the area of Bavaria, Germany where I lived between 1997 & 2003, street crime, car theft, drug dealing, burgalry, prostetution was on the up, because these people, mainly the teenagers, who refused to get an education fell back on their old habits from their time in the old Soviet Union where they were treated little better than Roma.
This is pearl deserving to be curved in stone. So according to you Germans were treated little better than Roma in USSR :cantbeli:
Ha-ha, ha. Ze germans. They allowed that.:cantbeli:

The problem you witnessed was partially the result of lousy work of german immigration agency who was accepting any willing families, included those who were very fine with buying documents, forging histories and lies.

Also quite a few germans, who came from middle east, were already fully integrated in pretty harsh life in these USSR republics. Obviously their behavior would and looked barbaric in german cities. But they definitely were not worse than the locals or russians from these areas.


Resulting to insults to back up your argument, because somebody has a diffeant opinion to your narrowminded view just shows your true colours.

It's not an insult. It is the statement. Who is narrow minded is you. I don't know and actually don't care about your intentions, but I do know that this "they are victims" circus is damaging and making the current situation uncontainable. If you are participating in it you are an asshole.

If a romanian policeman beats some gypsies, he is one of those who beats everybody who is a criminal in his eyes.You know it's just enough to ask such policeman and he will tell you that. There is long history of "para" justice in Romania. (did they copy french? those are also famous for it.) Making from it "its racism" is narrow minded. Making from it a "fight for minorities" just blocks problem and makes problem actually worse as these "minorities" learn the science to be "professional victims" and the "direct" justice is still practiced.

Such policemen have to be singled out and such practice gradually banished. Gradually here because the crime situation in Romania was and is in pretty good balance. You can walk pretty much everywhere. Any sudden change will lead to the explosion of criminality. Do you want this?

Any blind "fight for minorities" just alienates locals, as the problem of permanent public "nuisance" as politicians call it (being threaten with knife ie) is still there and the locals quite rightfully take such "selectivity" as the western prejudice against them. In areas where "minority" NGO work this alienation is so serious that it's next to impossible to do any normal business for foreigners and foreign companies. And it's no surprise Ultra right parties reign there. (2romanians- try to get details of what happens exactly in Hargita, you'll be surprised).

First thing that should be done is to remove beggars from streets and limit "black" movement of goods and people.(For example close all these scrap joints and finally register all gypsies separating coinciding names and birth dates). Then you can demand attention of local authorities and the locals' participation in "inclusion programs". Right now it's even unknown how many are out there...Any other way will lead to the conflict as the initial complain is still not satisfied.
Locals have to be heard and listen. This is first and prime thing that has to be done by any sensible political machine.

I want to finish with small story that was replicated probably more than a 100 times.
A person genuinely wanting to help (you know that protestant "helping" thing coupled with pretty silly northern european romantic ideas about "gypsies total freedom"), comes to Romania (after all it's save and easy) and start working with gypsies. This person is very welcome and enjoys good time etc. until she/he is robbed (in cases I know of, by the hosts). This person refuses to call police because "police will beat them."
Such attitude:
1) is racism, as this person denies gypsies the right for responsibility for their actions,
2)promotes crime, as more foreigners will be targeted.
Even such behavior is very bad and such person is an asshole because he/she does opposite of what he/she intends to do. That is to help these people.

NGO who target and protect "police victims" are simply criminals since they successfully participate in keeping alive criminal groups. (Get interested why Camataru clan lived so long).

I am off from this apparently deaf "conversation".

Keep feeling "good" and 'progressive"...

[[ KOOSHAB ]]

I do not want to seem racist but I'm tired to walk on the streets and see these gypsys.They know only to steal and destroy all the good things in this country.

Congratulations, you are a racist.
...and it's Romani, Sinti, Kale, etc not "gypsy"

[Connaught Ranger]

Who stated that?. There are plenty of problems in a quite of few areas in every country. "white trash" is not just void expression.

This thread is not about them, it's even not about xenophobia well entrenched in northern Irish society, it's about roma nomad groups and how quickly they become hated whenever they go.

Its such white trash who are the people who attacked the Romanians and Roma in Northern Ireland, so they are very much at the centre of this particular incident.

Are you saying that romanian families protest against arrest of their relatives with "forks" etc.? When, where?

No I said the common man is well used to using everyday farm implements in violent acts. Recently in Hunedoara county a family armed with such implements and a chain saw tried to stop the Police and workers from removing a fence outside a house due to work to make the road wider.

Where did I say that? If you look in my post history I actually say that all ethnic groups have some specialization in crimes.

I say here , that unlike any state corruption in "normal" cases when locals are involved, the crime cases involving "minorities" suddenly are taken "specially" and "sensibly". You know because they "are oppressed people".
It's shown everywhere in all countries, as it's common international problem existing everywhere. What this showoff violence has to do in this thread?
So violence offered by none Roma is acceptable:roll:

I am talking about money extortion from smaller kids, I am talking about threatening teachers by adult relatives, I am talking about arson etc.

Acts often done by non-Roma as well.

there are plenty of "ex gypsies" who are settled and live "white trash" or not, but typical "local" life in balkan countries, so there are plenty of romanians, bulgarians etc. who have "dark" skin. They are not discriminated. Why?

Funny its been posted on this thread how non.Roma are being called Gyspys because of their skin colour.

If my ingrlish is very unclear please point where, you can do it with PM. Everyday I use 3+languages and none of them I know well enough.
What do you want a medal p-)

This is pearl deserving to be curved in stone. So according to you Germans were treated little better than Roma in USSR :cantbeli:
Ha-ha, ha. Ze germans. They allowed that.:cantbeli:Before you make smart comments feel free to check out what life was like for any Russian with German connections, or vice-versa in the Soviet Union.

The problem you witnessed was partially the result of lousy work of german immigration agency who was accepting any willing families, included those who were very fine with buying documents, forging histories and lies.
Really? what a convienient excuse, care to offer any proof? however the Germans Auslander Amt checked these people out very well.

Also quite a few germans, who came from middle east, were already fully integrated in pretty harsh life in these USSR republics. Obviously their behavior would and looked barbaric in german cities. But they definitely were not worse than the locals or russians from these areas.Germans from the middle east, any particular country? Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen:roll:


It's not an insult. It is the statement. Who is narrow minded is you. I don't know and actually don't care about your intentions, but I do know that this "they are victims" circus is damaging and making the current situation uncontainable. If you are participating in it you are an asshole.

Of course, I am condemed without the benifit of a trial, why am I not surprised its your answer to everything, paranoia runs rampent in the family or just in you.:roll:

If a romanian policeman beats some gypsies, he is one of those who beats everybody who is a criminal in his eyes.You know it's just enough to ask such policeman and he will tell you that. There is long history of "para" justice in Romania. (did they copy french? those are also famous for it.) Making from it "its racism" is narrow minded. Making from it a "fight for minorities" just blocks problem and makes problem actually worse as these "minorities" learn the science to be "professional victims" and the "direct" justice is still practiced.

Such policemen have to be singled out and such practice gradually banished. Gradually here because the crime situation in Romania was and is in pretty good balance. You can walk pretty much everywhere. Any sudden change will lead to the explosion of criminality. Do you want this?

Bull**** comment, plain and simple.

Any blind "fight for minorities" just alienates locals, as the problem of permanent public "nuisance" as politicians call it (being threaten with knife ie) is still there and the locals quite rightfully take such "selectivity" as the western prejudice against them. In areas where "minority" NGO work this alienation is so serious that it's next to impossible to do any normal business for foreigners and foreign companies. And it's no surprise Ultra right parties reign there. (2romanians- try to get details of what happens exactly in Hargita, you'll be surprised).

Funny most of the people exploting the foreign companies looking to get established in Romania sit behind the desks in the local Primaria, the Turkish custom of Baksheesh is still alive and well here.

First thing that should be done is to remove beggars from streets and limit "black" movement of goods and people.(For example close all these scrap joints and finally register all gypsies separating coinciding names and birth dates).

What next establish camps for their "protection", now where have we heard that before.:roll:

Then you can demand attention of local authorities and the locals' participation in "inclusion programs". Right now it's even unknown how many are out there...
Nice of you to throw in the unknown hoards scare card:roll:

Any other way will lead to the conflict as the initial complain is still not satisfied.
Locals have to be heard and listen.

Funny, many Roma are locals too.

This is first and prime thing that has to be done by any sensible political machine. (did you really use the words sensible & political in the same sentence?:cantbeli:)


I want to finish with small story that was replicated probably more than a 100 times.

A person genuinely wanting to help (you know that protestant "helping" thing coupled with pretty silly northern european romantic ideas about "gypsies total freedom"), comes to Romania (after all it's save and easy) and start working with gypsies. This person is very welcome and enjoys good time etc. until she/he is robbed (in cases I know of, by the hosts). This person refuses to call police because "police will beat them."
Such attitude:
1) is racism, as this person denies gypsies the right for responsibility for their actions,
2)promotes crime, as more foreigners will be targeted.
Even such behavior is very bad and such person is an asshole because he/she does opposite of what he/she intends to do. That is to help these people.

NGO who target and protect "police victims" are simply criminals since they successfully participate in keeping alive criminal groups. (Get interested why Camataru clan lived so long).

Nice fairy story, no names, no dates, no real facts, should start it with "Once upon a time in a land not so far away. . . .

I am off from this apparently deaf "conversation".

Keep feeling "good" and 'progressive"...

I do, its better than being a zenophobic racist like some who post here.:roll:

[loganinkosovo]

I did not realize Romanians were a different racial group from the natives of NI ;)

On a serious note, similar attacks on people from other eastern/central european countries have taken place in the last couple of months in NI. I wonder what is the cause of that.

They're Catholic.

[oldsoak]

I'm not sure its because of that. I think the antipathy to communities such as the Roma runs deeper than that. Heck, in rural Ireland travellers etc dont get much of a welcome.

[Connaught Ranger]

Just goes to show there is one born every minute.

If an offer appears to be too good to be true it usually is

So Australian Police cannot track down 50 members of a rouge band of Irish Travelers, not saying much for their expertise is it.:roll:

Whatever about them getting in to Australia on a tourist visa, it should not be too hard to track down who supplied them with white vans and equipment, I mean they hardly took it in to the country as luggage.:roll:

So, in the 10 months since the story made the papers, were any of them caught? charged, sent to prison? or are they still at large fooling the Australian population.

Still I have to laugh, as I find it funny a country built on the backs of convict labour, much of it Irish, gets conned by a bunch of Irish Travelers.rofl

Connaught Ranger.

[Connaught Ranger]

As long as you can get a laugh from it then we're all happy :D


A spokesman for the Australian police said: “It’s not a criminal matter — it’s really a matter for the OFT as the men have broken trading regulations.”

Says it all right there. :)

[DS73]

Conan, I have impression your wife is working in some Human Right Organization? Am I correct?


Originally Posted by DS73 http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=4247675#post4247675)
Who stated that?. There are plenty of problems in a quite of few areas in every country. "white trash" is not just void expression.

This thread is not about them, it's even not about xenophobia well entrenched in northern Irish society, it's about roma nomad groups and how quickly they become hated whenever they go.

Its such white trash who are the people who attacked the Romanians and Roma in Northern Ireland, so they are very much at the centre of this particular incident.
And the same trash attacked them in Roma, and the same trash was complaining in Germany during 90s. etc. Poor poor roma....



Are you saying that romanian families protest against arrest of their relatives with "forks" etc.? When, where?
No I said the common man is well used to using everyday farm implements in violent acts. Recently in Hunedoara county a family armed with such implements and a chain saw tried to stop the Police and workers from removing a fence outside a house due to work to make the road wider.
Lol, is it this case?
http://stirileprotv.ro/stiri/eveniment/circ-la-drumul-mare-in-hunedoara-cu-drujbe-si-topoare.html

do you equate these news to these one?
http://stirileprotv.ro/stiri/romania-te-iubesc/romania-te-iubesc-romani-kris-legea-tiganeasca.html
or to these one?
http://www.protvintl.ro/stiri/oltenia/craiova-scandal-cu-sabii-si-arme-de-foc-intre-doua-clanuri-de.html
You are like one chines dude from OZ who tried to equate legal industrial intelligence and technological thefts.




It's shown everywhere in all countries, as it's common international problem existing everywhere. What this showoff violence has to do in this thread?So violence offered by none Roma is acceptable:roll:Ehee, I hope romanian members will correct if it's not the case, but I believe such cases were investigated and the teachers and students somehow involved were punished. ("yourtube" violence cases). It's not in the news anymore, isn't?



there are plenty of "ex gypsies" who are settled and live "white trash" or not, but typical "local" life in balkan countries, so there are plenty of romanians, bulgarians etc. who have "dark" skin. They are not discriminated. Why?

Funny its been posted on this thread how non.Roma are being called Gyspys because of their skin colour.

Where, what about quote?




This is pearl deserving to be curved in stone. So according to you Germans were treated little better than Roma in USSR :cantbeli:
Ha-ha, ha. Ze germans. They allowed that.:cantbeli:
Before you make smart comments feel free to check out what life was like for any Russian with German connections, or vice-versa in the Soviet Union.
Lol.



The problem you witnessed was partially the result of lousy work of german immigration agency who was accepting any willing families, included those who were very fine with buying documents, forging histories and lies.Really? what a convienient excuse, care to offer any proof? however the Germans Auslander Amt checked these people out very well.
Lol.



Also quite a few germans, who came from middle east, were already fully integrated in pretty harsh life in these USSR republics. Obviously their behavior would and looked barbaric in german cities. But they definitely were not worse than the locals or russians from these areas.

Germans from the middle east, any particular country? Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen:roll:Near East of course, Khazastan mostly, but other NE soviet republics as well.




It's not an insult. It is the statement. Who is narrow minded is you. I don't know and actually don't care about your intentions, but I do know that this "they are victims" circus is damaging and making the current situation uncontainable. If you are participating in it you are an asshole.
Of course, I am condemed without the benifit of a trial, why am I not surprised its your answer to everything, paranoia runs rampent in the family or just in you.:roll: Tell me how many gypsies children have you brought to school, to doctor? How many gypsies women have you conciliated after family violence or provided elementary training of child care? (because they are ignorant of any). How many young mothers received help from you? (it's still common to give birth for 15 y.old girls there). How many people did you actually help so they indeed started to live better there?
I ask these questions because NGO trying to help these people cann't do much exactly because of "human right" groups who literally trying to keep status quo. With all their powers and noise.



Any sudden change will lead to the explosion of criminality. Do you want this?

Bull**** comment, plain and simple.

Are you an expert to be so categorical? Beside academical knowledge I've witnessed the collapse of criminal system in S. Russia, I heard of quite serious problems in Poland during 90s. The romanians were "spared" exactly because of the habit of "direct" justice, since such justice doesn't require working jails or honest judges. Romanians still don't have working criminal courts btw.



Funny most of the people exploting the foreign companies looking to get established in Romania sit behind the desks in the local Primaria, the Turkish custom of Baksheesh is still alive and well here. Turkish custom would be there in any conditions. I am talking about companies that don't pay bribes and are looking for long term business and healthy relations.
Something that does require accountability and trust.
Or normal NGOs, who are quite fine in ethnically homogeneous regions..



What next establish camps for their "protection", now where have we heard that before.:roll:
Where did you hear that I wonder? Definitely not in Romania.



Then you can demand attention of local authorities and the locals' participation in "inclusion programs". Right now it's even unknown how many are out there...Nice of you to throw in the unknown hoards scare card:roll: You cann't help if you don't know whom, right?
But of course the lack of accounting is so nice and comfortable...
You can claim anything while it feeds your agenda.



Any other way will lead to the conflict as the initial complain is still not satisfied.
Locals have to be heard and listen.
Funny, many Roma are locals too.

They don't make problems at home, since they prefer to visit other cities for "work".


This is first and prime thing that has to be done by any sensible political machine. (did you really use the words sensible & political in the same sentence?:cantbeli:)
Why such cynicism? If your nation is incapable to build healthy society, it doesn't mean nobody can.

[Connaught Ranger]

Firstly who is Conan?:roll:

if by any chance its directed to me may I ask is it to hard for you to transcribe CR or Connaught Ranger?:roll:

No, my wife is not working in any Human Rights Organisation:roll:

neither am I.:roll:

Irish white trash attacked people in Germany in the 1990's? (do we have a confused icon?).

So you still claim nobody but the Roma settle disputes with farm implements?:roll:

Romanian T.V. news does still show occasionally acts of violence in the class rooms, bribery of teachers is still alive and well though.


Also quite a few germans, who came from middle east, were already fully integrated in pretty harsh life in these USSR republics. Obviously their behavior would and looked barbaric in german cities. But they definitely were not worse than the locals or russians from these areas.The words middle east do not define what you posted under:


Near East of course, Khazastan mostly, but other NE soviet republics as well.Irrelevant question as to how many Roma I have associated with.p-)

So you make a farcical claim that N.G.O. are blocked from helping the Roma,

if thats true by whom are the blocked the Roma.:roll:

Witnessed the collapse of the criminal system in S. Russia:roll:
look again its still there as big, if not bigger than before.

We all have heard a lot of things about Poland, make is it all true thoughp-)

Contrary to your expert knowledge there are working criminal courts in Romania, how else do you explain those people, Roma and non-Roma Romanians going into prison? Volunteers rofl

Your right all Roma migrate to other places to commit their evil crimes, against non-Roma, the Roma all live at home as little angels:roll:.

Your really clutching at straws if you seriously believe anybody will take your last post as credible proof that the Roma are the cause of all the problems in the world. rofl rofl

Funny enough camps were set up by the Romanians for the Jewish & Gyspy Romanian citizens in the past See:-



The report of the International Commission on the Holocaust in Romania was submitted to President Ion Iliescu in Bucharest on November 11, 2004.

Full Report in English.



Table of Contents (http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_yad/what_new/data_whats_new/pdf/english/001_Table_of_Contents.pdf)


Ch.8 - The Deportation of the Roma and Their Treatment in Transnistria (http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_yad/what_new/data_whats_new/pdf/english/1.8_The_Deportation_of%20the_Roma.pdf)
And to whose nation do you refer with your last? The Roma are living in many Nations, most if not all, have failed to implement any program of integration, but, rather preferring to keep them on the fringes of so called civilized society.

Connaught Ranger.

[Connaught Ranger]

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=The+Deportation+of+the+Roma+and+Their+Treatment+in+Transnistria&ei=UTF-8&fr=moz2

PART 1.


The Deportation of the Roma and their Treatment in Transnistria.

The Antonescu Regime and the Emergence of the “Gypsy Problem”
The deportation of Roma to Transnistria—from its idea to its implementation—was altogether the work of the Antonescu government. Before the Antonescu regime, there was no “Gypsy policy” to speak of in Romania. Politicians did not see the Roma as a “problem.”

Even though they were registered in censuses as a separate ethnic group with their own language, the Roma were treated more as a social category. Consequently, in their actions Romanian authorities never treated the Roma a national minority per se; therefore, legislation concerning minorities was never applicable to them. Also, interwar Romanian nationalism was not accompanied by anti-Roma manifestations and the Romanization policies promoted by the 1938 Goga government and the Carol II monarchic authority regime did not pertain to the Roma. The General Commissariat for Minorities (Comisariatul General al Minoritatilor), established in 1938, never considered the Roma within the scope of its jurisdiction.

If the “Jewish problem” figured largely in Romanian interwar politics, there was no “Gypsy problem” to speak of. Romanian political parties and politicians even developed collaborative relationships with Roma leaders, some of whom became formal members of Romanian parties. During the 1937 electoral campaign, the Tara Noastra journal of the National-Christian Party (Octavian Goga’s party) printed a special weekly for the Roma.[1] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn1)
The situation of the Roma in the decades preceding the World War II is well known, mainly due to sociological and ethnographic research done in those years.[2] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn2)

The 1930 census recorded 262,501 people who declared themselves to be of Gypsy descent (1.5 percent of Romania’s population). Of these, 221,726 (84.5 percent) lived in villages and 40,775 (15.5 percent) in towns. Most of these resided primarily on the outskirts, yet during the economic transformations of the epoch, such as the land reform of 1920, many rose to the same social status as Romanian peasants. This contributed to the integration of these socially mobile Roma into the village community, a process that had begun with their sedentarization. Moreover, the social and economic development of many Roma led to the emergence of a new type of Roma elite (artists, traders, and intellectuals) who became involved in community affairs and even formed Roma associations. The most important was the General Union of Roma in Romania, established in 1933, which formally continued to function during the war.

Sociological studies from the 1930s explored the socio-economic role of Roma in Romanian villages as well as their relations with the ethnic majority. These studies argued that the Roma were part of the community and worked as craftsmen and farmers. Still, prejudices and stereotypes, some of which were inherited from the centuries of Roma slavery, affected them unfavorably; yet overall the relationships between the Roma and Romanian peasants were good. A significant part of the Roma chose to assimilate into the majority culture.

During the same decade, however, the Roma became the target of some Romanian proponents of eugenics.[3] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn3) Drawing on the ideas of Robert Ritter, the intellectual mastermind of the Roma tragedy in Nazi Germany, these Romanian researchers considered the Roma a plague. In supporting their opinion, they argued that the Roma were socially peripheral paupers with high criminality rates. These self-appointed experts racialized the Roma and spoke of the menace that the ongoing assimilation of the Roma represented for the “racial purity” of Romanians. Iordache Făcăoaru, a leading proponent of eugenics and biopolitics, argued the following:

Assimilation is activated and made more threatening not only by the great number of Gypsies, but also by specific Romanian socio-political elements: the traditional Romanian tolerance, the spread of Gypsies over all Romanian territory, their mixture with Romanian population in rural and urban environs, unsegregated schools, the fact that Gypsies were given land by the state, sedentarization, the lack of any segregation legislation and, finally, the protection granted to them by the government.[4] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn4)

The same author decried the fact that although Romania had the highest number of Roma in Europe—he estimated at least 400,000—the authorities had not taken any measures against them. Yet, despite praising anti-Roma policies in some countries, especially in Germany, he rejected such solutions as “biological isolation” or “complete ethnical separation” from the majority as being too difficult to operationalize or too economically and/or morally problematic.[5] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn5) The extermination of the Roma was, however, proposed by another author, Gheorghe Făcăoaru:

Nomadic and semi-nomadic Gypsies shall be interned into forced labor camps. There, their clothes shall be changed, their beards and hair cut, their bodies sterilized [emphasis in original]. Their living expenses shall be covered from their own labor. After one generation, we can get rid of them. In their place, we can put ethnic Romanians from Romania or from abroad, able to do ordered and creative work. The sedentary Gypsies shall be sterilized at home [...]. In this way, the peripheries of our villages and towns shall no longer be disease-ridden sites, but an ethnic wall useful for our nation.[6] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn6)

But such racist opinions were not widespread in Romania. Academia, the press, and public opinion were reluctant to accept them, and not even the extreme right adopted them. This situation changed after 1940, when Romanian democratic values were abandoned and the country entered the sphere of Nazi political and ideological domination.

After coming to power, the Iron Guard considered for the first time adopting a racial policy toward Roma. The Legion journal, Cuvântul, published an article on January 18, 1941 (a few days before the Iron Guard rebellion), that stressed the „priority of the Gypsy issue” on the government agenda and suggested that appropriate legislation be passed to make marriages between Romanians and Roma illegal and to gradually isolate the Roma into some kind of ghetto.[7] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn7) Yet, during the time the Legion was in power, they adopted no specific anti-Roma measures.

Even though the Roma had never before been an issue in the Romanian social sciences, some researchers — some of them from among the best — began to approach what they called “the Gypsy problem” during the War. One such study, published in 1944, proposed either their concentration in an isolated area of Romania, their deportation to Transnistria, or their sterilization.[8] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn8)

Despite their marginal status, the racist opinions expressed in Romanian society during the 1930s and 1940s did play a certain role in the preparations for Antonescu’s policies toward Jews and Roma. Yet it must be stressed that, unlike in the case of Jews, this policy was not rooted in the Romanian past, but rather in new political realities resulting from Marshal Antonescu's entry into the political arena. The best evidence is that the Romanian population, notably peasants, opposed the deportations of Roma to Transnistria.[9] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn9)

The deportation of the Roma to Transnistria was Antonescu’s personal decision, as he himself would later admit during his trial in 1946.[10] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn10) It is worth noting that none of the orders concerning the Roma bore Antonescu’s signature and none were published—not in the Official Gazette or anywhere else. All were made verbally by Antonescu to his ministers and carried out by the General Inspectorate of the Gendarmerie. That Antonescu closely monitored their enforcement suggests that Romania’s wartime policy toward the Roma was his creation.

The idea of the Roma's deportation to Transnistria did not exist at the beginning of the Antonescu’s rule. When the discussion on taking measures against the Roma began—in February 1941—Transnistria was not considered. At the Council of Ministers meeting on February 7, 1941, Ion Antonescu requested the removal of the Roma from Bucharest and spoke of settling them in compact villages in Bărăgan; suggested three to four villages to be built for this purpose, each able to accommodate 5,000–6,000 families.[11] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn11)

Although this idea was not implemented, it is illustrative of the way in which the solution to the Roma “problem” was seen at that time. Only after Romania obtained Transnistria was there the possibility to deport the Roma to outside the country’s boundaries. By 1942, when measures against the Roma began, there was already the precedent of the Jews’ deportation, which had commenced in fall 1941. Antonescu made the decision to deport the Roma across the Dniester in May 1942. By the time of the census of the Roma considered to be “problems” (May 25, 1942), their fate had already been decided by the Conducator. On May 22, 1942, the Presidency of the Council of Ministers informed the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Marshal Antonescu's decision to deport certain categories of Roma to Transnistria.[12] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn12)

The May 1942 Census of Roma Considered to be “Problems”
The “census” conducted by the gendarmerie and police all over the country on May 25, 1942 (although it had initially been planned for May 31), was ordered by Marshal Antonescu in order to find the Roma who fit the category of “problem” - Roma. The following were registered, along with their families: nomadic Roma; and from the sedentary Roma, those with criminal records, recidivists, and those with no means of subsistence and without a definite occupation with which to support themselves. Forty thousand nine hundred nine individuals were registered on these lists: 9,471 nomadic Roma and 31,438 sedentary Roma.

The order of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of May 17, 1942, stated that the Roma on the list were to be kept under close surveillance by local authorities and prevented from leaving the county until further instruction.[13] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn13) The lists — with Roma from both categories recorded by commune, town, and county, — was sent to the General Inspectorate of the Gendarmerie.[14] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn14) The subsequent deportations consisted of the citizens registered in this census. With only few exceptions, the roughly 25,000 Romanian Roma “evacuated” to Transnistria were included on the lists set up by the gendarmerie and police at the end of May.

Reasons for the Deportation of Roma.

The May 1942 census, through its definition of the two categories of Roma, also shows the criteria for “selection” of those to be deported. It was based on nomadism and, in the case of the sedentary Roma, on criminal convictions, theft, and the lack of means to subsist. In some documents authorities also referred to the necessity of ridding villages and towns of the poor Roma population without an occupation or trade and no means of subsistence, without any possibility to earn a living, and those who made a living from theft and begging.

At the 1946 trial of the war criminals, Ion Antonescu evoked the murders and thefts Roma had committed in towns during anti-aircraft alarm exercises.[15] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn15) Thus, the criteria appear to have been mainly social, relating to public order. Although it is unknown whether accusations against the Roma were true, the crimes they supposedly committed in towns could not have been the main reason for the deportations, since nearly all Roma lived in villages. Moreover, these deportations could not have been a purely social measure.

Otherwise, this process of “cleansing” the country of socially problematic elements would have applied to the entire population, regardless of ethnic origin; yet it pertained only to the Roma. Government documents on the Roma did not invoke race as a reason for deportation. They did not refer to racial “inferiority” or to a racial “danger” posed by the Roma, as did some Romanian publications at the time.[16] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn16) In short, while such terms as “dangerous” and “undesirable” were used in reference to the Roma, the authorities did not use race to motivate the deportation.

The reason for the Roma’s deportation was likely another: it was part of the Antonescu regime’s ethnic policy.[17] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn17) Achieving ethnic homogeneity in Romania — by “transferring” the minority out of the country and bringing in Romanians from neighboring countries — was a genuine preoccupation of the Romanian government at that time. Effective measures were taken and documents were drafted to deal with this problem. The most important of these documents was the project of Sabin Manuilă, general-director of the Central Institute for Statistics, written in the form of a memo addressed to Marshal Antonescu on October 15, 1941.

This memo took aim at all ethnic minorities in Romania. According to Manuilă, they should be subject to transfer agreements or population exchanges between Romania and different states. For the Jews and the Roma, who did not have a state of their own, the planned solution was the “unilateral transfer,” which actually meant sending them across the border.[18] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn18) The territory where the Romanian government could do this was Transnistria. Thus, the partial deportation of Jews and Roma to Transnistria in 1941 and 1942 can be understood as elements of this policy of ethnic purification.

The contemporary documents currently available do not elucidate why — if the “transfers” across the border were part of an ethnic policy — the deportations to Transnistria were limited to the Roma categories explained above. However, during those years in which the Roma overnight became a “problem” for the authorities, the government could not stray too far from the opinions held by Romanian society, as reflected in the sociological studies of the 1930s. The “selection” and the deportation of Roma aimed only at those who led a very “Gypsy” way of life.

Out of a population of 208,700 Roma in Romania within the borders of 1942 — as estimated by the Central Institute for Statistics[19] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn19) — almost 41,000 (20 percent) Roma were registered in May 1942. Of these, more than 25,000 were deported (12 percent of the total Roma population).

End of Part 1.

Connaught Ranger.

[Connaught Ranger]

Part Two:-


The Deportations of Roma to Transnistria.

The Deportation of Nomadic Roma (July-August 1942).

The deportations began on June 1, 1942, with the nomadic Roma. That day, the gendarmes began to gather them in the capital cities of the counties and then to send them to Transnistria. Marshal Antonescu, himself, gave the order for the deportation “of all nomadic Gypsies’ camps from all over the country.”[20] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn20) The nomadic Roma traveled on foot or with wagons from one precinct to the other, making their trip several weeks long. Officially, the operation finished on August 15, 1942. Those who were at the front or mobilized within the country at the time of the deportation were expelled from the military by order of the Army General Staff, sent back home, and made to follow their families to Transnistria. Until October 2, 1942, a total of 11,441 nomadic Roma were deported to Transnistria (2,352 men, 2,375 women, and 6,714 children).[21] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn21)

The Deportation of Sedentary Roma Deemed “Undesirable” (September 1942).

In terms of the sedentary Roma registred in May 1942, the authorities first undertook to sort them. Those selected for the initial deportation were Roma considered to be “dangerous and undesirable” along with their families—a total of 12,497 individuals. The remaining 18,941 were to be deported later. Families of mobilized Roma and Roma eligible for mobilization together with their families were to remain in the country, even if they had been categorized as dangerous. At the time of the deportation of nomadic Roma, the authorities had not yet formed a definite plan of action concerning the sedentary Roma. They were either to be deported to Transnistria or imprisoned in camps within Romania. In the end, the authorities chose deportation.

According to the initial plan, the Roma were to be transported by ship to Transnistria in July, first on the Danube and then the Black Sea. This plan was prepared in detail but ultimately abandoned, and they were transported by train instead. Ion Antonescu set the beginning of the operation for August 1, 1942.[22] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn22) However, the deportation of sedentary Roma did not take place until September. It lasted from September 12 to September 20, 1942, used nine special trains, and began in different towns in the country. The modification of the plan from water to land explains why the deportations did not begin until September 1942.

During that month, 13,176 sedentary Roma were deported to Transnistria. This number exceeded the number on the lists drafted for deportation and, moreover, the list of those deported did not coincide with the lists of those selected for deportation. An investigation into this discrepancy concluded that some who had been slated for deportation could not be found, while others—who had been misled to believe they would be given land once they reached Transnistria—volunteered. Because most Roma did not carry identity papers with them, it was easy for these volunteers to mingle among the other Roma. Some Roma traveled by regular trains to Tighina (on the Dniester) where they joined various groups of deportees. A rumour had been circulated among the Roma once they arrived in Transnistria, they would be granted land. This in part explains the desire of some Roma to leave.

The deportation operation led to many abuses by the gendarmes and policemen who conducted the operation. Some families of mobilized Roma and some Roma likely to be mobilized along with their families were deported. There was one case in which a Roma soldier’s wife and in-laws were seized by gendarmes and deported to Transnistria while he was on leave.[23] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn23) Some Romanian, Turkish and Hungarian families were also rounded up by mistake. Some of the Roma deported had Romanian wives and some had an occupation or owned land.

A large number of complaints were filed decrying these occurrences; the number of requests for repatriation was even larger. Roma serving at the front or mobilized within the country raised their voices against these actions. As a consequence, the Presidency of the Council of Ministers and the General Staff of the Army demanded reparation. In an order issued by the Ministry of Internal Affairs, these actions were described as causing “turmoil among soldiers of Gypsy origin, and rightly so, for while serving their country with great honor, their families were being rounded up and deported to Transnistria.”[24] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn24)

This order went on to recommend that appropriate steps be taken and requested that the families of these people be treated with all possible care; moreover, “family” should be understood in the Roma sense of the word; thus, concubines of the conscripted Roma and Roma who were intended to be drafted as well as their children should be exempt from deportation.[25] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn25) After an investigation, repatriation was granted to 311 heads of families and 950 family members—a total of 1,261 individuals.[26] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn26) Not all of these were repatriated, however, and those Roma who had relatives at the front, or who had fought in World War I or the anti-Soviet war, became eligible for better treatment.[27] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn27)

At the same time, Roma were forced from their homes without even their most necessary personal and household belongings and were not given time to sell their possessions. So, heads of local gendarmerie and police stations would often buy the Roma’s belongings and livestock at extremely low prices. The houses and all other goods belonging to the deported Roma were taken over by the National Center for Romanianization.[28] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn28)

Later Deportations.

The deportation of the sedentary Roma categorized as dangerous was to be followed by that of the other Roma listed in May 1942. When the selection of the sedentary Roma was made, it was intended that conscripted or soon-to-be conscripted Roma would later be imprisoned in the camps inside Romania. But, the authorities eventually settled on deportation. It never occurred, however, the deportation was postponed at the beginning of October 1942 until the following spring.

Then, on October 13, the Council of Ministers decided to call off any future deportations of Jews and Roma.[29] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn29) The following day, the Ministry of Internal Affairs ordered that no more Roma were to be sent to Transnistria—neither the nomads still in the country nor those with criminal records; only those Roma “who by their very presence were a threat to public order” were still to be deported.[30] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn30)

It can be argued that problems encountered during the deportations by the Romanian military bureaucracy played an important part in bringing them to an end.[31] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn31) The Roma deportations were discussed at the September 29, 1942, Council of Ministers meeting, during which Gen. Constantin Vasiliu, secretary of state at the Ministry of Internal Affairs, stated that he would not send any more Roma to Transnistria.[32] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn32) Nevertheless, deportations of Roma to Transnistria continued even after that date—some in the fall of 1942 and others during the following year.

These were of small groups and isolated individuals from among those who had escaped the two major deportation operations, those who had escaped from prison, and some whom the authorities had registered later on the list of the “undesirables.” They amounted to several hundred people deported after October 1942. The last deportations took place in December 1943, when a transport arrived in Transnistria with fifty-seven Roma from Piteşti and from the county of Argeş; thirty-six of them were considered to have been “evacuated” (deported) and the other twenty-one were “re-evacuated” (re-deported).[33] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn33)

Number of Roma Deported to Transnistria.

The total number of Roma deported to Transnistria from June 1942 to December 1943 reached slightly over 25,000. In early October 1942, after both major deportations, there were 24,686 Roma in Transnistria: 11,441 were nomadic, 13,176 were sedentary, and another 69 had been deported after having been released from prison.[34] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn34) This number later increased by a few hundred with the additional deportations of some who had escaped the major operations, been released from prison, or become “undesirable.”

The Treatment of the Roma in Transnistria

“Gypsy Colonies.”

The Roma were settled at the border or inside villages located in eastern Transnistria on the bank of the Bug, in the counties of Golta, Otchakov, Berezovka and Balta. Initially, most of the nomadic Roma were settled in Golta county, while sedentary Roma were almost all settled in Otchakov county. Some Roma were accommodated in huts, others in houses. Usually half of the local Ukrainian residents in a village would be evacuated from their houses and then moved into the homes of their non-evacuated neighbors; the Roma were then placed into the newly-empty houses.

A few villages on the Bug were completely evacuated for this purpose, with the Ukrainian population being relocated to the central areas of the county. These were the so-called “Gypsy colonies”in Transnistria, consisting of several hundred people (in the beginning there were even thousands of people). They were neither camps nor ghettos, even if the documents sometimes use these terms. Certain zones of the village were reserved for the Roma. The deportees were overseen by the local gendarme precinct, but had a certain freedom to move inside the commune and vicinity in order to go to work to earn their living.

The Status of the Roma Deportees.

The government of Transnistria issued an order on December 18, 1942, establishing the status of Roma deported to Transnistria.

It stipulated the following: the Roma would be settled in villages, in groups of 150-350 individuals (according to the local need for laborers) with one of their own as leader; they would be obligated to perform any kind of work required of them in exchange for wages similar to those earned by local laborers; skilled laborers would be employed, according to their skills, in existing workshops and in workshops to be built in the future; the remaining Roma would be organized into teams of laborers, under the supervision of a leader they chose, and they would be employed in agriculture, woodcutting, lumbering, and in the collection of such items as hides, hair, metal, old rags, and garbage; all Roma, aged twelve to sixty, male and female, would have to be engaged in an activity, either in workshops or in teams of laborers; Roma with above average levels of productivity would be recompensed with 30 percent of the value of their extra work; the leaders would be responsible for preventing the Roma in their village from leaving and would be required to monitor the work attendance of all members on a daily basis; and Roma leaving the villages where they were settled without authorization or those absent from work would be imprisoned in reformatory camps to be established in every county.[35] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/#_ftn35)

Living Conditions in the Deportation Sites.

These measures were supposed to provide the deported with the necessary means to earn a living under circumstances of compulsory residence. Yet, they would remain on paper only. The situation of the Roma in Transnistria was extremely difficult at first. They were given few possibilities of work or means to live. Only some were used on former state farms (sovhoz) and former collective farms (kolkhoz), which needed but a small number of workers usually just for seasonal work, preferring to use Ukrainian natives. Only a few workshops mandated in the order above were organized.
Living conditions in Transnistria were very harsh. The Roma were not provided with enough food and were unable to support themselves. The food ratios established by the government were not observed; sometimes none would be distributed for weeks.

The Roma were also not provided with firewood; so they could neither prepare their food, nor warm themselves. Clothing was another major problem, since the deported Roma had not been allowed to take any clothes or any personal belongings with them. The deportees lacked the most elementary things, including pots for preparing their food. Medical assistance was almost nonexistent, and they lacked medicine. Those who were fortunate enough to have gold, Romanian currency, or other belongings of value managed to buy food from local people. This desperate situation is clearly described in reports and other documents drafted by the authorities in charge of the deportees, such as gendarme precincts and legions, and districtpretures and county prefectures. For example, a December 5, 1942, report signed by an intelligence agent explained the situation in the Otchakov county and is representative for almost all Roma “colonies”:

[…] During the time that they have spent in the barracks in Aleksandrodar, the Gypsies have lived in indescribable misery. They weren’t sufficiently fed. They were given 400 grams of bread for the ones that were capable of working and 200 grams each for the elderly and the children. They were also given few potatoes and, very rarely, salty fish and all these in very small quantities.

Due to the malnutrition, some of the Gypsies—and these make up the majority—have lost so much weight that they have turned into living skeletons. On a daily basis—especially in the last period—ten to fifteen Gypsies died. They were full of parasites. They were not paid any medical visits and they did not have any medicine. They were naked…and they didn’t have any underwear or clothing.

There are women whose bodies…were [completely] naked in the true sense of the word. They had not been given any soap since arriving; this is why they haven't washed themselves or the single shirt that they own
.
In general, the situation of the Gypsies is terrible and almost inconceivable. Due to the misery, they have turned into shadows and are almost savage. This condition is due to the bad accommodations and nutrition as well as the cold. Because of hunger…they have scared the Ukrainians with their thefts. If there had been some Gypsies in the country who were stealing…out of mere habit, here even a Gypsy who used to be honest would begin stealing, because the hunger led him to commit this shameful act.

Due to maltreatment, by November 25, three hundred nine Gypsies had died. Roma bodies were found on the Otchakov-Aleksandrodar road. They died of famine and cold.

But, while the Gypsies in the Aleksandrodar barracks were lodged in a more humane way in the above-mentioned villages, this did not mean that the Gypsy problem in Otchakov was solved. Their situation has somewhat improved; they were less exposed to the cold and were disinfected. But if they do not receive any wood or other fuel, the Gypsies will be able to do to the houses what they did to the barracks, turning them into places impossible to live in.

And the cold will lead them to that as well, not thinking that they only make their bad situation, worse, and that the danger of dying from cold increases this way. Also, if they will not be given humane nourishment, medical assistance and medicine as well as clothing for some of them, the mortality of the Gypsies will not decrease, but will increase simultaneously with the increase of the frost. Also, they will increase the thefts from the Russians [i.e., Ukrainians]. As a matter of fact, the local population is outraged and its state of mind is very low because they have been evicted from their own houses during the winter, for these houses to be given to the Gypsies, whom they cannot stand.”[36] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn36)

Until spring 1943 the situation of the deportees was dramatic from every perspective. Many thousands of Roma died. In fact, almost all deaths among the Romanian Roma deported to Transnistria occurred in winter 1942/1943. A report of the Landau district preture to the prefecture of the Berezovka county regarding the exanthematic typhus epidemic that broke out in the middle of December 1942 in the Roma camps stated that due to typhus, the number of Roma located in Landau decreased from around 7,500 to approximately 1,800–2,400.[37] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn37) The situation in Landau was an exception, but the number of deceased was high everywhere.

The confiscation of their horses and wagons, which served as both “mobile homes” and means to earn an income, affected the nomadic Roma very harshly. Gheorghe Alexianu, governor of Transnistria, issued an order in this respect on July 29, 1942.[38] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn38)Lt. Col. Vasile Gorsky, former prefect of Otchakov county, gave one of the most graphic descriptions of the situation of the Roma deported to Transnistria in a memo written in 1945.[39] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn39) This memo also represents a detailed account of what was recorded in documents issued by the Transnistria authorities. In addition to Roma suffering, the bad administrative skills of the administration are depicted in detail.

The situation of the Roma later improved somewhat. Since the concentration in large groups made it extremely difficult to provide work and food as well as supervision, and after the dramatic experience of winter 1942/1943, the authorities dissolved the colonies and distributed the Roma among the villages in the spring and summer of 1943. Thus, the Roma began to live—long-term or short-term—in many villages of the Golta, Balta, Berezovka, and Otchakov counties where they used to work, either on former state farms and kolkhoz, or in workshops or other places where they were compensated for their work.[40] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn40)

The archives creted by the occupation authorities in Transnistria or by the administration of some communes and farms provide great detail about the type of work done by the Roma, including agricultural labor, repairing roads and railroads, chopping down willow trees on the bank of the Bug, chopping wood in forests, military-related tasks in the Nikolaev region (on the opposite side of the Bug in German - occupied territory). Through a series of measures taken in summer 1943, the authorities tried to provide the deportees with work. At the time these steps were referred to as “organization of labor.” There was a positive side, for the work was paid and the deportee and his family could somewhat earn his living.[41] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn41)
Some of the deportees adapted to the unfavorable circumstances in Transnistria. They found a niche in the village economy, doing some work and making crafts for the natives, exactly as they had done in their villages in Romania. One such group, which managed to preserve its occupation and thereby ensure its welfare, was the pieptănari (comb makers). In February 1944, 1,800 Roma living in the county of Berezovka earned their living by making and selling combs.[42] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn42) In a March 11, 1944, request to the prefect of the Berezovka county, the “mayor of the Gypsies” of the Suhaja Balka farm wrote:

We didn’t receive anything from the farm or village for four months and lived only by our work and by the income earned selling combs. With the income we have from selling combs we managed to dress and eat decently this winter.[43] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn43)

Păun Marin, foreman of the Roma comb workshop on the Suhaja Balka farm, wrote in similar manner in the same day, when requesting permission to sell combs.[44] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn44)

However, not all deportees could be provided with work. So, measures were taken at the county or district level to provide them with food. The various departments of the government of Transnistria—particularly the Department of Labor, which dealt with Jews and Roma deported to Transnistria—did not always share a good working relationship. In summer 1943, in the county of Balta, Roma were removed from their houses, moved into huts and given land to work for food. Other colonies were dissolved and the Roma were distributed among Ukrainian villages, thus making them easier to feed and use for work. There were even proposals to create Roma agricultural colonies with farmland and agricultural equipment. The gendarmerie appealed to the county prefectures to ensure the Roma’s living.[45] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn45)

Connaught Ranger

[Connaught Ranger]

Part Three:-


The situation was not the same everywhere. In some places, Roma were confronted with hunger and cold again in 1943. The situation was extremely serious in the Golta county. The May 10, 1943, report of the Gendarmes Legion Golta to the General Inspectorate of the Gendarmerie describes the extermination regime applied to Jews and Roma:

I have the honor to report to you that from the information I have verified in the entire county, the following is the result: The Jews are not given food for months. The same is true of the Gypsies and prisoners in the Golta camp, where 40 individuals are imprisoned. All of these work and are forced to work until they are exhausted from hunger. Please advise.[46] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn46)

In another report, dated November 22, 1943, to the Prefecture of the Golta county, the legion states that the Roma interned in the Golta labor camp (including some who had tried unsuccessfully to flee from Transnistria) were faced with starving to death.[47] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn47) Likewise, in September that year, Ion Stancu, “mayor of the Gypsies” in Kamina Balka in Golta, denounced the fact that the Roma were not given sufficient food:

“During the day we work at the kolkhoz, but at night we patrol the precinct; they give us very little food: 300 grams of [corn] flour, 500 grams of potatoes and 10 grams of salt per person, without any other kind of food; we haven’t been given oil for 8 months.”[48] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn48)

At the same time, authorities often criticized the fact that Roma tried to avoid work when it was available. According to the documents, the Roma preferred to travel around the villages and beg. In order to procure food, some Roma started to steal; there were Roma gangs of thieves. These deportees terrorized the Ukrainian population with their criminal activity and caused difficulties for the Romanian authorities. At the same time, the Roma had a tendency to flee from the “colonies” on the Bug. Either individually or in groups, they attempted to return to Romania by any means possible. However, the runaways were usually caught and brought back. The authorities in Transnistria discovered that it was impossible to put a stop to this. Punishment camps were planned for such situations, but were never realized. Only in fall 1943, when the exodus of Roma had grown considerably and the number of those who had fled and been caught exceeded 2,000, was the measure taken to create such a camp in Golta, where 475 Roma were interned.[49] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn49)

The situation of the Roma varied from county to county, district to district, and even farm to farm. It depended on many factors, including the Romanian official at the head of the administrative unit (county of district). Food provision depended heavily on local communities, but the local Ukrainians considered the Roma to be a burden. County and district authorities often had to force the Ukrainian communes and communities to give the Roma food according to the dispositions mandated by the government of Transnistria. The Roma’s situation also depended on the group or sub-group to which they belonged. In some places, Roma communities managed to secure their subsistence and survive almost two years of deportation. Elsewhere, though, only a small number were able to survive.

Number of Victims.

Under these circumstances, many deported Roma died in Transnistria of hunger, cold, or disease. There is no document indicating that the Romanian civil or military authorities in Transnistria organized executions of Roma. Nevertheless, there were instances when gendarmes shot Roma, as in Trihati (Otchakov county) where, according to a May 1943 report, gendarmes shot the Roma who had come there from neighboring villages in search of work.[50] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn50)

The exact number of the Roma who died in Transnistria is not known. On March 15, 1944, when Romanian citizens—regardless of origin—were to be evacuated from Transnistria, the General Gendarmes Sub-Inspectorate Odessa reported that it had on its territory 12,083 Roma.[51] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn51) This number represented the Roma who had survived the deportation. To this number must be added the number of Roma who escaped from Transnistria before the above-mentioned date. These include Roma who were repatriated at different times for various reasons as well as those who escaped Transnistria illegally, without being caught and returned. There were approximately 2,000 Roma who fit into these categories, which raises the number of the survivors to approximately 14,000. This means that out of the over 25,000 deported Roma, approximately 11,000 died and 14,000 survived.

The 6,439 Roma recorded by the gendarmerie in the second half of July 1944, when it began to register those who returned to Romania, are only part of the survivors.[52] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn52) The Roma in urban areas, supervised by the police, are not included in this number. Moreover, a considerable number of Roma were able to escape registration due to conditions of war. The Soviet army already occupied part of the Romania’s territory by then or was located in the vicinity of the front line. At that time, some Roma were still traveling on their way home, while others were stranded behind when the army and Romanian authorities retreated. From the latter, some were repatriated at the end of the war, while others scattered about on Soviet territory.

Return of Roma Survivors to Romania (1944)

The Roma who survived deportation returned to the country in spring 1944, at the same time as the army and Romanian occupation authorities that withdrew because of the Soviet offensive. As early as fall 1943, the unauthorized desertion of the deportation places had become widespread. Those caught trying to flee were sent back to Transnistria. In March/April 1944, in the absence of any official measures of repatriation, the Roma withdrew to the other side of the Dniester and then back to Romania. In some cases they received direct assistance from the retreating Romanian and German armies and from the Romanian railway workers. On April 19, 1944, the General Inspectorate of the Gendarmerie ordered for all Roma from Transnistria to be stopped in their flight and put to work where they were caught.[53] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn53) The order was repeated on May 17, 1944.[54] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn54)

These Roma were given a temporary place of residence and they were forbidden to move around. They were to be employed in farming activities. Life in Transnistria had made most of them unfit for work, however. Others were placed with various landowners to do agricultural work. There were, however, frequent instances of Roma refusing to work on the grounds that they did know how to perform the tasks, which exasperated the local authorities; and the Roma continued to starve. In such conditions, some groups of Roma were granted permission to return to their native villages.[55] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn55)

The End of Anti-Roma Policies.

With the ousting of the Antonescu government on August 23, 1944, and the abrogation of fascist legislation, the regime’s Roma policy was brought to an end. On September 13, 1944, the State Under-Secretariat for the Police issued an order that all Roma who had returned from Transnistria were to be “left to their occupations, while measures are to be taken to entice them into various works.”[56] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn56)

The Situation of the Other Roma of the Country.

More than 25,000 Roma were deported to Transnistria—approximately 12 percent of the Roma population in Romania. Most were of no interest to the authorities. From a juridical point of view they were unaffected by the measures of persecution instituted by the Antonescu government. Most Roma continued to enjoy full citizenship rights (given the conditions of that time, of course) along with all the other citizens of the country. They did not lose these rights and their property was not subject to the Romanization policies applied to the Jewish population. Yet the Roma still experienced insecurity during these years. Documents reveal that they feared the deportations would extend to other Roma categories as well. This fear was sometimes fed by local authorities, who—usually in their own interest—would threaten these citizens with deportation.[57] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn57)

However, there was no special policy aiming at the entire Roma population in Romania during 1940–1944. What is now referred to as the Roma policy of the Antonescu regime actually consisted of measures taken against only part of this population.

In addition to the Roma deported to the Bug, two other groups of Roma were targeted by the Romanian authorities: 1) several hundred who fled from Northern Transylvania, which was under Hungarian occupation from 1940–1944, and settled in the counties of Cluj-Turda and Arad. They crossed the frontier to Romania mainly because they refused to join the Hungarian army (more precisely, to join the work battalions). These Roma were not sent to Transnistria, though some gendarme legions at the border threatened to deport them;[58] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn58) 2)

Roma on the large estates in the south of the country, several hundred as well, who had been working there for many years in precarious conditions, in terms of both wages and housing. In November 1942, the General Inspectorate of the Gendarmerie ordered that all landowners provide permanent accommodations for the Roma working their lands. Marshal Antonescu himself issued the same order in June 1943. Few houses would actually be built for these Roma, though.[59] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn59) This measure was part of the government’s social policy.

Since the deportation was limited to only part of the Roma, their situation may seem to be parallel to that of the Jewish population. Only Jews from Bessarabia, Bukovina and from Dorohoi county were deported; the other Romanian Jews—with only a few exceptions—were not. Nevertheless, during the war, the Romanian state led a policy which aimed at all Jews; the anti-Semitic legislation, the measures with racial content and the Romanization politics affected, albeit in different ways, all segments of the Jewish population. From 1940–1944, the entire Jewish population was subject to heavy discrimination.

It was not so with the Roma population. During those years there was no measure taken in Romania against all Roma—that is, against the entire population registered on the census as „Gypsies” or identified as such by the authorities or the local population. Thus, the Antonescu government’s plans for the Roma were not limited to Transnistria. The deportation to the territory between the rivers Dniester and Bug remains the most important element though.

The Romanians Population and the Deportation of Roma.

The deportation of the Roma did not enjoy the support of the Romanian population, and protests came from all quarters.[60] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn60) One category of protests came from the political and cultural elite. Thus, on September 16, 1942, while the deportations were underway, the chairman of the National Liberal Party, Constantin I.C. Brătianu, sent a letter to Marshal Antonescu that invoked both humanitarian and moral arguments, calling the deportations persecutions “that will make us regress several centuries.”[61] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn61)

This letter was a political move: Brătianu argued that the responsibility of this decision was entirely Antonescu’s and that Antonescu’s policy toward the Roma had no relation to the policies of previous governments. He went on to argue, “these Romanian citizens have not been subject to a special treatment in our state before now.” Brătianu did not fail to also mention “the persecutions and the deportations of the Jews, as reprisals against their co-religionists in Jews in Bukovina and Bessarabia and under the influence of German policies.”[62] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn62)

The leaders of the National Peasant Party expressed their solidarity with Brătianu’s protest.[63] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn63) The famous Romanian composer George Enescu pleaded in person with Antonescu against the deportation of Roma musicians and threatened to go with them should that occur.[64] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn64) Also, the management of several companies, such as the state-run Romanian Railway Company, defended their Roma employees out of fear that deportations would extend to new categories of Roma.[65] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn65)

Most documents indicate popular opposition to the deportation of Roma from all social classes, whereas few documents show support for the measure.[66] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn66) Protest was usually expressed in the form of letters or memorandum sent by individuals or entire communities to such public authorities as the Presidency of the Council of Ministers, Ion Antonescu personally, the Queen Mother, the Ministry of the Interior, and the Great Chief of Staff. These efforts aimed either to stop deportations from a certain village or town or to secure the return of deportees to their homes. Most of these protests were made in fall 1942, after the deportation of the “dangerous” sedentary Roma, and they most likely were made out of fear that new categories of Roma would be added to the deportation lists. Also, many local municipalities issued “good behavior” papers for the local Roma who felt threatened, or they intervened more directly to shield the local Roma from possible deportations.

For example, in an October 1942 memorandum sent to Antonescu, the inhabitants from Popoveni village, Bolta Verde commune, Dolj, and from other villages as well from Craiova, ask that a Craiova, Ilie Dinca, not be deported to Transnistria.[67] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn67) Also, in September 1942, a group of citizens from the town of Craiova asked the Council of Ministers for Ştefan Gâdea, the local tin sheet specialist, not to be deported to Transnistria.[68] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn68) The same plea is made for local craftsmen (who “only by distant lineage can be considered Gypsies”) by 127 Romanians from Zimnicea in October 1942 in a memo sent to Marshal Antonescu.[69] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn69) The arguments invoked in these appeals include the good integration of the Roma in the local community or their importance in its economic life (in many cases, the Roma were the only craftsmen available in the village).

However, these objections to the deportation of the Roma never concerned the nomadic Roma, whose deportation seems to have been considered justifiable by the Romanian majority. In fact, one of the arguments used by the sedentary Roma to defend themselves against actual or possible deportations was that they were not nomadic but had stable homes and performed useful work.[70] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn70)

The Postwar Years and the Treatment of the Roma Deportations
in War Crimes Trials.

After the return of the surviving Roma from Transnistria in spring and summer 1944 and the regime change of August 1944, the “Gypsy issue” no longer figured on the political agenda in Romania and the reinstatement of the Roma’s rights went smoothly. For the new government, the Roma became once again what they were before Antonescu came to power: a marginalized social category, rather than an ethnic minority.

As a consequence, the policies adopted vis-à-vis the Roma included such measures as the creation of incentives to make the nomadic Roma sedentary and the re-establishment of former limits on the same Roma groups on the freedom of movement. There is no evidence indicating that the deportees received reparations, and the Roma’s problems did not reach the agendas of the political parties.[71] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn71)

Although the fate of the Roma during the war—the deportations to Transnistria and the killings—were no longer of interest to either the government or the public, the postwar trials of war criminals temporarily brought these events back into the discussion. Yet, the fate of the Roma was fairly marginal to the topics of interest. When the first group of war criminals was tried in 1945, only one indictment document mentions the Roma deportations (in the case of Colonel Isopescu, prefect of the Golta county), and even then the offenses concerned only the confiscation of Roma wagons and horses.[72] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn72)

The remainder of the indictment was dedicated exclusively to the murders of Jews.

The situation was similar when Ion Antonescu and his main collaborators were tried in 1946. While charges were formally brought against Antonescu for the deportation of the Roma, the prosecutor did not dwell on the details. Thus, during Antonescu’s trial, the plight of the Roma was mentioned only four times: in the indictment, in the formal reading of the charges, and in statements taken from Antonescu and General Vasiliu.[73] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn73) The indictment notes in passing that “[t]housands of unfortunate families were taken out of their huts and shanty houses and deported beyond the Dniester; tens of thousands of men, women and children died due to starvation, cold and diseases.”[74] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn74)

The indictment refers to 26,000 deported Roma, while General Vasiliu acknowledged only 24,000.[75] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn75) In the statement he gave during the interrogation, Ion Antonescu argued that the deportations were motivated by considerations of law and order (considerente de ordine publică): the Roma committed many thefts, robberies and murders in Bucharest and other cities during the wartime curfew.[76] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn76) He made the same argument in his May 15, 1946, memorandum to the Peoples’ Court.[77] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn77)At the time, press coverage of the fate of the Roma during the war was scant, even as the details of the trials were systematically presented.[78] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn78)

In the early postwar years the fate of the Romanian Roma during the war did not seem to interest anyone. The only initiative to support the ex-deportees in Transnistria came in early 1945 from the General Union of Roma in Romania. Its central committee announced that the organization’s main objective was “to give moral and material support to all the Roma, and in particular to all the Roma deported to Transnistria.”[79] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn79) However, after this organization began to function effectively again, on August 15, 1947, its activities no longer concerned the former Roma deportees.[80] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn80)
Finally, in 1948 the Roma were close to obtaining the status of ethnic minority (“co-inhabitant nationality”). The December resolution on the issue of ethnic minorities of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the Romanian Workers’ Party—a key document of Communist-era minority policies—denied the Roma this status. The situation remained unchanged until the collapse of the communist regime in 1989. In addition, the issue of the deportation of the Roma was not mentioned in communist Romania except in rare instances.[81] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftn81)

Connaught Ranger.

[RIPTIDE]

Funny enough camps were set up by the Romanians for the Jewish & Gyspy Romanian citizens in the past See:-


WTF does that have to do with the subject at hand? :roll: And no, its not really 'Funny enough'.

[Connaught Ranger]

Part Four.


Conclusions.

In the year 1942, as part of the policy of ethnic cleansing promoted bz the Antonescu government, 25,000 Romanian Roma were deported to Transnistria. This number included all nomadic Roma and part of the sedentary Roma, all being considered to be “problems” because of their way of life, criminal convictions on lack of means to subsist. The deportees represented approximately 12 percent of the total Roma population in the country.

Given the very harsh living conditions in the deportation places, especially because of hunger, cold and desease, approximately 11,000 deported died in Transnistria. The survivors returned to the country in spring 1944, at the same time with the retreat from Transnistria of the army and Romanian authorities.

[1] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref1) Viorel Achim, Tiganii in istoria Romaniei (Bucharest: Editura Enciclopedica, 1998), p. 132.

[2] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref2) On the Roma in the interwar period, including their perception by the Romanian society, ibid., pp. 120-132.

[3] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref3) Ibid., pp. 133-136.

[4] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref4) Iordache Făcăoaru, “Amestecul rasial si etnic in Romania,” Buletinul Eugenic şi Biopolitic 9 (1938): p. 283.

[5] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref5) Ibid., pp. 282-286.

[6] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref6) Gheorghe Făcăoaru, Câteva date în jurul familiei şi statului biopolitic (Bucharest: Editura Institutului Central de Statistică, 1941), pp. 17-18.

[7] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref7) L. Stan, “Rasism faţă de ţigani”, Cuvântul, XVIII, no. 53, January 18, 1941, pp. 1, 9.

[8] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref8) Ion Chelcea, Ţiganii din România. Monografie etnografica (Bucharest: Editura Institutului Central de Statistică, 1944), pp. 100-101.

[9] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref9) See below the section “The Romanian Population and the Deportation of Roma.”

[10] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref10) Procesul marii trădări naţionale: Stenograma desbaterilor de la Tribunalul Poporului asupra Guvernului Antonescu (Bucharest: Editura Eminescu, 1946), p. 66.

[11] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref11) Marcel-Dumitru Ciucă, et al., eds, Stenogramele şedinţelor Consiliului de Miniştri. Guvernarea Ion Antonescu, vol. 2 (Bucharest: Arhivele Naţionale ale României, 1998), p. 181. Antonescu stated, “…all Gypsies in Bucharest must be removed. But before removing them, we must consider where to take them andwhat to do with them. A solution might be to wait until the marshes of the Danube are drained and build some Gypsy villages there and let them fish. […] Another solution would be to negotiate with the big landowners. There…is a considerable shortage of workers in Bărăgan. We could build these villages there…at least some houses and barracks, a sanitation system, stores, inns, etc. We should set up a census and arrest all of them, en masse, and bring them to these villages. We will build three-four villages, each for 5–6,000 families, and install guards around them, for them not to be able to get out. They will live their life there and find work there too.”

[12] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref12) Viorel Achim, ed., Documente privind deportarea ţiganilor în Transnistria, 2 vols. (Bucharest: Editura Enciclopedică, 2004, forthcoming), no. 6.

[13] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref13) Ibid., no. 3.

[14] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref14) ANIC, fond IGJ, dosar 201/1942, dosar 202/1942, dosar 203/1942.

[15] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref15) Procesul marii trădări naţionale, p. 66.

[16] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref16) See footnote 8.

[17] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref17) On the objectives of the government’s deportation of the Roma, see Viorel Achim, “The Antonescu Government’s Policy towards the Gypsies”, in Mihail E. Ionescu and Liviu Rotman, eds., The Holocaust in Romania. History and Contemporary Significance, Bucharest, 2003, pp. 55-60.

[18] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref18) For Sabin Manuilă’s memo, see Viorel Achim, “The Romanian Population Exchange Project Elaborated by Sabin Manuilă in October 1941,” Annali dell'Instituto storico italo-germanico in Trento 28 (2001): pp. 593–617.

[19] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref19) Achim, Documente, no. 104.

[20] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref20) Ibid., no. 15.

[21] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref21) Ibid., no. 179.

[22] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref22) Ibid, no.42.

[23] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref23) ANIC, fond PCM, dosar 202/1941-1944, pp. 274-277.

[24] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref24) Achim, Documente, no. 203.

[25] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref25) Ibid.

[26] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref26) Ibid., no. 306.

[27] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref27) ANIC, fond DGP, dosar 77/1943, p. 47; dosar 43/1943, p. 286.

[28] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref28) Achim, Documente, no. 101.

[29] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref29) Timpul, VI, no. 1954, October 16, 1942, p. 3.

[30] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref30) Achim, Documente, no. 189.

[31] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref31) Radu Ioanid, The Holocaust in Romania: The Destruction of Jews and Gypsies Under the Antonescu Regime, 1940-1944 (Chicago: Ivan R. Dee, 2000), p. 227.

[32] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref32) Radu Ioanid, Evreii sub regimul Antonescu (Bucharest: Hasefer, 1997), pp. 312-313.

[33] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref33) Achim, Documente, no. 573 (Report, January 3, 1944).

[34] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref34) Ibid., no. 179.

[35] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref35) Ibid., no. 268.

[36] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref36) Ibid., no. 249.

[37] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref37) Ibid., no. 590.

[38] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref38) Ioanid, Evreii, p. 315.

[39] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref39) Achim, Documente, no. 641. Vasile Gorsky’s memo is discussed in Ioanid, The Holocaust in Romania, pp.231-235.

[40] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref40) The situation of the Roma deportees, with the changes occurred in time, is best summarized in the monthly reports of the Labor Service within the district prefectures. These documents contain a chapter dealing with “The Labor and the Life Regime of the Gypsies.” For example, see Achim, Documente, no. 473 (from the Golta district, August 1943).

[41] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref41)See footnote 40.

[42] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref42) Achim, Documente, no. 589.

[43] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref43) Ibid., no. 605.

[44] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref44) Ibid., no. 604.

[45] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref45) Documents referring to these aspects: ibid., no. 474, no. 481, no. 506, no. 522, no. 528 etc.

[46] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref46) Ibid., no. 375.

[47] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref47) Ibid., no. 543.

[48] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref48) Ibid., no. 488.

[49] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref49) Ibid., no. 553 (Report of the Gendarmes Inspectorate Balta, December 9, 1943).

[50] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref50) Ibid., no. 383.

[51] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref51) Ibid., no. 608.

[52] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref52) ANIC, fond IGJ, dosar 86/1944, dosar 97/1944.

[53] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref53) Achim, Documente, no. 613.

[54] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref54) Ibid., no. 621.

[55] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref55) Numerous examples can be found in ANIC, fond IGJ, dosar 86/1944 etc.

[56] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref56) Achim, Documente, no. 639.

[57] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref57) The state of mind of the Roma after the deportations in the summer and fall of 1942 is seen, for example, in the reports of the Regional Police Inspectorate Alba Iulia from September 30 (Achim, Documente, no. 162) and December3, 1942 (ibid., no. 243) or in the report of the Regional Police Inspectorate Timişoara from November 27, 1942 (ibid., no. 238).

[58] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref58) Some documents with respect to these Roma: ibid., no. 119, no. 568, no. 577.

[59] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref59) Documents referring t this issue: ibid., no. 400, no. 622, no. 623, no. 626.

[60] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref60) See Viorel Achim, “Atitudinea contemporanilor faţă de deportarea ţiganilor în Transnistria,” in Constantin Iordachi and Viorel Achim, eds., România şi Transnistria: problema Holocaustului. Perspective istorice şi comparative, Bucharest: Curtea Veche, 2004, pp. 204-236.

[61] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref61) Jean Ancel, ed., Documents Concerning the fate of the Romanian Jews during the Holocaust (New York: Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, 1986), vol. 4, p. 225.

[62] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref62) Ibid.

[63] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref63) Achim, Documente, no. 202.

[64] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref64) Ibid., no. 220.

[65] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref65) Ibid., no. 190.

[66] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref66) One such case is that of a retired officer (Captain Dogaru) from Târgu Jiu, who suggested in June 1942 that local Roma be either “colonized” in Transnistria or gathered from around the county and confined in an ethnically pure Roma village. Ibid., no. 44.

[67] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref67) Ibid., no. 167.

[68] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref68) Ibid., no. 157.

[69] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref69) ANIC, fond PCM, dosar 202/1942, pp. 234-235.

[70] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref70) The chairman of the General Union of Roma in Romania, Gheorghe Niculescu, demanded in September 1942 that “the execution of deportation orders must concern only nomadic Roma and exempt sedentary Roma who have a stable abode and are skilled in the practice of various professions.” Achim, Documente, no. 169.

[71] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref71) Some information about the Roma in Romania after 1944, in Viorel Achim, “Romanian Memory of the Persecution of the Roma,” in Roma and Sinti: Under-Studied Victims of Nazism, Symposium proceedings, Washington D.C.: Center for Advanced Holocaust Studies, USHMM 2002, pp. 59-77.

[72] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref72) Actul de acuzare, rechizitoriile şi replica acuzării în procesul primului lot de criminali de răsboi (Bucharest: Editura Apărării Patriotice, 1945), p. 76.

[73] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref73) Procesul marii trădări naţionale, pp. 42, 65-66, 104, 108, 305.

[74] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref74) Ibid., p. 42.

[75] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref75) Ibid., p. 108.

[76] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref76) Ibid., pp. 65-66.

[77] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref77) Revista Istorică, N.S., 4 (1993), nos. 7-8, p. 763.

[78] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref78) Scânteia(The Spark), a Communist Party daily, mentioned the topic only in its coverage of the Vasiliu case—and even then, only when it reported the reading of the charges by the prosecutor. Scânteia, May 9, 1946, p. 4; May 16, 1946, p. 2.

[79] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref79) ANIC, fond DGP, dosar 87/1943, p. 318 (Police report, February 3, 1943).

[80] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref80) Ibid., pp. 352-353 (Report of the Secret Police, April 7, 1948).

[81] (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=159354#_ftnref81) The reappearance of the Roma deportation in a Romanian scientific publication dates from 1974: Gheorghe Zaharia, Pages de la resistance antifasciste en Roumanie (Bucharest: Meridiane, 1974), p. 44.

No doubt there are some who post on this thread, who will be verry sorry the Roma problem was not finalized in those years. I name no names, they know who they are.

Connaught Ranger.

[Connaught Ranger]

WTF does that have to do with the subject at hand? :roll: And no, its not really 'Funny enough'.

Lets see, historical treatment of the Roma :roll:

It was not meant to be funny, as in funny Ha Ha! Plank.:roll:

[RIPTIDE]

Lets see, historical treatment of the Roma :roll:

It was not meant to be funny, as in funny Ha Ha! Plank.:roll:
Oh great. And how does the historical treatment of the Roma under a Dictator have any bearing on Roma attacked in NI. Muppet.

[Connaught Ranger]

Oh great. And how does the historical treatment of the Roma under a Dictator have any bearing on Roma attacked in NI. Muppet.

Because the same hate mentality against the Roma still prevails today,

as seen in Northern Ireland recently.

Read it again it covers more than the Dictator period post 1945:roll:

[RIPTIDE]

Because the same hate mentality against the Roma still prevails today,

as seen in Northern Ireland recently.

Read it again it covers more than the Dictator period post 1945:roll:
Two diff regions. Antonescu had no bearing on Romas treatment in NI. The historical actions in Romania has no bearing on the title. The hate in NI for the Roma comes from a diff source.



To the Romanians, living in Romania who are spewing crap... post ethnic breakdown of crimes committed in Romania highlighting Roma and other minorities, or GTFO of the thread.

[The Balkan]

Europe created the Roma problem long ago.

[RIPTIDE]

Europe created the Roma problem long ago.
What "problem"? Please. Be specific.

[The Balkan]

What "problem"? Please. Be specific.

The one people have been bitching about through this whole thread? The so called gypsy lifestyle, the crime alot of them are suspected of being involved in, all that. I'm not really gona waste time proving it here, I've tried before, but anyone who reads about their history, really reads into it not just skims, can see what I'm talking about very easy.

[tea drinker]

The one people have been bitching about through this whole thread? The so called gypsy lifestyle, the crime alot of them are suspected of being involved in, all that. I'm not really gona waste time proving it here, I've tried before, but anyone who reads about their history, really reads into it not just skims, can see what I'm talking about very easy.
Come on - give us the main points!

I know that society loves the victim, a cause celebre. The social systems we build ensure division in society. If you give social welfare the families can easily become hooked on it, and the kids, and the kids of the kids, I've seen this. All of these people are ready made victims, and are unwilling to engage in normal society for fear of losing their benefits.
This problem exists to a larger or smaller amount all over Europe, depending on the welfare systems. In Ireland we have a number of white thrash families who will not honestly look for work, who are in many ways unemployable, and develop further problems through their chip on the shoulder - the fact that they are victims mean they must further the victim cause (it defines their life). Now, beyond this we have the traveller community, something similar to gypsies, and they are practically hopeless. I know of problems to teach the kids, the behaviour problems in class, low attendance soon to become non attendance. This is a big setup for a career as a victim, an outsider who can be identified and identified as needing help.
The welfare system tit's need a reduction. I mean when you can sit on your ass and get money for food booze and cigs, the more kids you have the more money (opposite of real world) and have a house for free, you risk LOOSING money by working, again the inverse of what you expect work = money right? Not if you are a victim!

Welfare makes permanent victims, not temporary solutions.

And yes, Northern Ireland is rife with bigotry (and victims, real and imagined). But jeebus don't call them on it!
http://www.president.ie/index.php?section=5&speech=43&lang=eng

It was, for generations, for centuries, an element of the lived lives
of many people who, on the surface, lived very good lives, I mean many of
them would have regarded themselves, for example, as very good Christians. But they gave to their children an irrational hatred of Jews, in the same way that people in Northern Ireland transmitted to their children, an irrational outrageous hatred, for example, of Catholics, in the same way
that people give to their children, an irrational outrageous hatred of
those who have different colour, and all of those thing, and all of those thing, all of those hatreds in the wrong circumstance, on a street in Dublin, they can outcrop as I have seen and heard, of a little child from Somalia being pelted with rotten eggs.

Rapidly followed with:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/jan/29/northernireland.northernireland

Mary McAleese, the Irish president, publicly apologised last night for offending Protestants after she compared the Nazi's hatred of Jews to prejudice against Catholics in Northern Ireland.


I'm getting tired of the whining from NI, regardless of background. My own experience of the bigotry there, it's pretty sick really. Stop the dole, free the victims. Having said that, why were Roma people in NI in the first place? Were they working or drawing attention to themselves thru victim behaviour? I know in the republic, in Dublin the Romanians setup a big camp near the airport and were causing a nuisance, in order to extort money from the gov and from passing motorists. Pavee point, the Irish "travellers" representatives, started banging on how they (Gypsies) should get accomadation and all sorts of handouts (as travellers get). The Romanian government reps IIRC said that most of them were actually farmers, and not short of money, and give them none. Now, I don't know if Roma are farmers or farmers are Roma, but you don't need to be an expert to know when you are being scammed, the label you put on them is not as important as the action you take to address them.
I think the gov found a way to deport them. Actually a search shows it is already covered:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=116408

[futurepilot2004]

II know in the republic, in Dublin the Romanians setup a big camp near the airport and were causing a nuisance, in order to extort money from the gov and from passing motorists. Pavee point, the Irish "travellers" representatives, started banging on how they (Gypsies) should get accomadation and all sorts of handouts (as travellers get). The Romanian government reps IIRC said that most of them were actually farmers, and not short of money, and give them none. Now, I don't know if Roma are farmers or farmers are Roma, but you don't need to be an expert to know when you are being scammed, the label you put on them is not as important as the action you take to address them.


I remember that. Travellers groups went to the press to highlight the "plight" of those particular roma. Political parties got involved with the usual Sinners and Solialist party giving out that Ireland should be helping them etc etc. Romanian government got involved and it turned out that the group actually had rather sizeable property porfolios back in Romania and were just trying to scam the Irish government. Complete joke but at least they got deported for their troubles.

[RIPTIDE]

Come on - give us the main points!

I know that society loves the victim, a cause celebre. The social systems we build ensure division in society. If you give social welfare the families can easily become hooked on it, and the kids, and the kids of the kids, I've seen this. All of these people are ready made victims, and are unwilling to engage in normal society for fear of losing their benefits.
This problem exists to a larger or smaller amount all over Europe, depending on the welfare systems. In Ireland we have a number of white thrash families who will not honestly look for work, who are in many ways unemployable, and develop further problems through their chip on the shoulder - the fact that they are victims mean they must further the victim cause (it defines their life). Now, beyond this we have the traveller community, something similar to gypsies, and they are practically hopeless. I know of problems to teach the kids, the behaviour problems in class, low attendance soon to become non attendance. This is a big setup for a career as a victim, an outsider who can be identified and identified as needing help.
The welfare system tit's need a reduction. I mean when you can sit on your ass and get money for food booze and cigs, the more kids you have the more money (opposite of real world) and have a house for free, you risk LOOSING money by working, again the inverse of what you expect work = money right? Not if you are a victim!

Welfare makes permanent victims, not temporary solutions.

And yes, Northern Ireland is rife with bigotry (and victims, real and imagined). But jeebus don't call them on it!
http://www.president.ie/index.php?section=5&speech=43&lang=eng


Rapidly followed with:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/jan/29/northernireland.northernireland



I'm getting tired of the whining from NI, regardless of background. My own experience of the bigotry there, it's pretty sick really. Stop the dole, free the victims. Having said that, why were Roma people in NI in the first place? Were they working or drawing attention to themselves thru victim behaviour? I know in the republic, in Dublin the Romanians setup a big camp near the airport and were causing a nuisance, in order to extort money from the gov and from passing motorists. Pavee point, the Irish "travellers" representatives, started banging on how they (Gypsies) should get accomadation and all sorts of handouts (as travellers get). The Romanian government reps IIRC said that most of them were actually farmers, and not short of money, and give them none. Now, I don't know if Roma are farmers or farmers are Roma, but you don't need to be an expert to know when you are being scammed, the label you put on them is not as important as the action you take to address them.
I think the gov found a way to deport them. Actually a search shows it is already covered:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=116408
Preach it Brotha. Amen. woot