Sarkozy: Burkas not welcome in France

[stonecutter]

Excellent.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_france_sarkozy_burqa

Sarkozy says burqas are 'not welcome' in France

18 mins ago
PARIS – President Nicolas Sarkozy lashed out Monday at the practice of wearing the Muslim burqa, insisting the full-body religious gown is a sign of the "debasement" of women and that it won't be welcome in France.
The French leader expressed support for a recent call by dozens of legislators to create a parliamentary commission to study a small but growing trend of wearing the full-body garment in France.
In the first presidential address in 136 years to a joint session of France's two houses of parliament, Sarkozy laid out his support for a ban even before the panel has been approved — braving critics who fear the issue is a marginal one and could stigmatize Muslims in France.
"In our country, we cannot accept that women be prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity," Sarkozy said to extended applause in a speech at the Chateau of Versailles southwest of Paris.
"The burqa is not a religious sign, it's a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement — I want to say it solemnly," he said. "It will not be welcome on the territory of the French Republic."
In France, the terms "burqa" and "niqab" often are used interchangeably. The former refers to a full-body covering worn largely in Afghanistan with only a mesh screen over the eyes, whereas the latter is a full-body veil, often in black, with slits for the eyes.
Later Monday, Sarkozy was expected to host a state dinner with Sheik Hamad Bin Jassem Al Thani of Qatar. Many women in the Persian Gulf state wear Islamic head coverings in public — whether while shopping or driving cars.
France enacted a law in 2004 banning the Islamic headscarf and other conspicuous religious symbols from public schools, sparking fierce debate at home and abroad. France has Western Europe's largest Muslim population, an estimated 5 million people.
A government spokesman said Friday that it would seek to set up a parliamentary commission that could propose legislation aimed at barring Muslim women from wearing the head-to-toe gowns outside the home.
The issue is highly divisive even within the government. France's junior minister for human rights, Rama Yade, said she was open to a ban if it is aimed at protecting women forced to wear the burqa.
But Immigration Minister Eric Besson said a ban would only "create tensions."
A leading French Muslim group warned against studying the burqa.

[Mofreaka]

Is there actually any religious purpose behind the burka , other than a debasement of women? I understand it's tradition, but that doesn't mean its ok. Good thing this is France, because there is absolutely no way we could get away with it, especially with that freedom of expression right.

[seraosha]

Islam calls people to modesty and humility, in both dress and manner.

Burqa's are oppressive towards women...because to truly follow the Q'uran, both men and women would wear them...and not just terrorists trying to escape capture from the IDF.

[Dercius]

Good to hear that. Lets see if Mr Sarkozy´s example is followed (even on a triviality like this).

IMO too much Political correctness towards minorities during last decades in Europe. You are the visitor, get used to it, and if you find it unbearable just leave.

[JCR]

Problem is, the "burqua banning" outrage is pretty much unnecessary.
I haven't seen anyone wearing one here, and I live in one of the most "oriental" german cities of all.
And concentrating on the most extreme form of muslim discrimination against women somewhat legitimized the lesser forms like Jihabs and such.
Keep in mind the Burqua is the most extreme form of muslim problems with women, and many muslims that would be considered "radical" by us are against Burquas (preferring "just" hijabs and such)

Generally, banning burquas covers as many potential offenders as banning pink fluffy bunny suits.
Sounds good but has no real effect.

[3rdMillhouse]

Good to hear that Sarokzy thinks this way.

[Derbedeu]

In the first presidential address in 136 years to a joint session of France's two houses of parliament, Sarkozy

Good to hear. Though this line surprised me. 136 years?

[JCR]

That means the "first ever" such adress since the french republic.
Maybe Napoleon III. made such an adress or Consul for life Bonaparte :)

[Panchito12]

I hate to admit this, but I get a big laugh out of watching women in the middle of a hot DC summer in black burquas while their dumb-s**t husbands are ditty-bopping around in shorts & polo shirts.

[3rdMillhouse]

Hopefully France will lead the example amongst Europe to teach the muslims that their religious conventions will NEVER supplant the constitutions of free democracies.

[Honneur et Patrie]

French muslim "official" representatives like Dalil Boubakeur said that burqa isn't an islamic obligation and that it was a custom long before afghan or arabic populations became muslim. (Historians sayed that he was right).

But the main official muslim associations said that if their members don't support the use of burqa, they are opposed to a ban that they'll consider as another defiance against muslim people!

The organization for women's rights seems to support a possible ban but some militants and politics fear that if they ban burqa, women who wear it will not be allowed by their families to leave their houses anymore! And it's also possible that such a law would be considered as unconstitutional by our Conseil Constitutionnel as it will be the first law on clothes in public areas!

[Stefan850]

My fiancee lives in Sydney, she tells me they go to public pools and swim with Burkas on themselfs, she complained but they told her the pool officials cant do nothing so she just left, so would I.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

...she tells me they go to public pools and swim with Burkas on themselfs....

It's hard for me to imagine a greater drowing hazard than being covered head to toe in cloth while in the water.

[K0m1t4]

My fiancee lives in Sydney, she tells me they go to public pools and swim with Burkas on themselfs, she complained but they told her the pool officials cant do nothing so she just left, so would I.

Seen that once in a hotel in Cyprus, most of the other guests complained but the hotel staff simply told us that they can't do anything about it, so some of us checked out that same afternoon and went to another hotel.

[Johnny_H02]

As much as I agree with the fact that they can be used to the debasement of women, I have to rule in favor of the Burka's the reason being is the State should have no business telling people what they can and cannot wear. I can't in good conscience stand up and say that banning baggy jeans is the State overstepping its bounds (in the case of the United States and urban youth) and then say the same for Burkas (in the case of France and Muslims).

[kamaz]

great news for France. about time this medieval mummy rag has been banned in a society that respects human rights.

[Red-Phos]

As much as i hate to say it.............

Get up there Frogs! Even our ''lot'' dont have the bowlex to say this!

[delio]

..she tells me they go to public pools and swim with Burkas on themselfs, she complained but they told her the pool officials cant do nothing so she just left, so would I.



http://www.mylifedump.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/uimassa_vaimon_kanssa.jpg


Ah summer time! There is nothing like relaxing at the beach with your mate on a nice hot summers day. Yup. Even if you're covered in a burqa from head to toe and wearing black rubber gloves.So Saudi Arabia decided to do the same and also ban Burkas, though only temporarily. And instead of black women must now wear red, ..

Lingerie stores finally opened n Saudi Arabia, with displays for all to see:

http://www.brownmanclothing.com/images/saudilingerie.jpg

"Hey yaar, let me show you what I would do if this was my wife wearing that..."

http://www.brownmanclothing.com/images/saudilingerie1.jpg

"This sure beats going to the mosque hey brothers?"

http://www.brownmanclothing.com/brownworld.html


..prices for the best caption.

[Winger]

Nothing wrong with the Burka insofar as the women wearing it shouldn't be doing it against their will. If they wish to do it because of respect for their religion and tradition and are happy with it then OK. But, they shouldn't have to wear it because of marital or family pressure. There are already laws in place to protect women from this in the west.

Litigating to ban the use of the Burka would be hypocritical towards true freedom.

[kosse]

Good for France. I hope their security forces are ready for muslim riots that will follow if this law is passed.

[Laworkerbee]

Nothing wrong with the Burka insofar as the women wearing it shouldn't be doing it against their will. If they wish to do it because of respect for their religion and tradition and are happy with it then OK. But, they shouldn't have to wear it because of marital or family pressure. There are already laws in place to protect women from this in the west.

Litigating to ban the use of the Burka would be hypocritical towards true freedom.

The burka has nothing to do with Islam and is not mandated in the quron.

[tanks_alot]

A state has no business telling people what they can or can't wear. if a woman decides to dress that way out of her own free will then no one has the right to tell her otherwise.

[Moledet]

Seen that once in a hotel in Cyprus, most of the other guests complained but the hotel staff simply told us that they can't do anything about it, so some of us checked out that same afternoon and went to another hotel.
Why would you leave an hotel for that? What difference does it make to you personally?
I can understand if they don't swim with a swimming cap on and than their might be hair in the pool, but if their head is covered what's the big deal?

[Winger]

The burka has nothing to do with Islam and is not mandated in the quron.

Thanks for the clarification but that doesn't address the heart of the matter. A lot of traditions and customs are not written yet followed.

[filochard]

As much as I support banning religious sign and dressing at school, cause at school those are childrens and are not free, I oppose banning burka to adults who are supposed to be free.
Wearing the burka in France is as shocking as going in bikini on the casba, that doesn't mean the state should be allowed to ban it.
Normally the constitutional council should prevent such a law to pass.

[K0m1t4]

Why would you leave an hotel for that? What difference does it make to you personally?
I can understand if they don't swim with a swimming cap on and than their might be hair in the pool, but if their head is covered what's the big deal?

Hair wouldn't even matter to me personally since it has much less microorganisms in it, but burka is made of cloth, it's like someone washing his pants in a pool next to you.

[GoBlue95]

Sarkozy is the man

[Laworkerbee]

Thanks for the clarification but that doesn't address the heart of the matter. A lot of traditions and customs are not written yet followed.

It's just bedouin culture masked as Islam but then again Islam sprang from bedouin culture. p-)

[Pars]

Sarkozy, you are definetly right. It has no place in all of Europe as a matter of fact.

[Moledet]

It's just bedouin culture masked as Islam but then again Islam sprang from bedouin culture. p-)
Try asking an Arab what he thinks about Bedouins, it's like asking a redneck about Iraqis. They are dirty, stupid, sinners, etc...

Anyway, wearing kippa is only a tradition in Judaism, yet some do it to distinguish themselves from the rest of the population.

[Red-Phos]

Has anyone else got the advert for The International Muslim matromonial site. Muslima.com

Join now its FREE!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH

[NathS]

Good to hear. Though this line surprised me. 136 years?

Constitution forbade it since 1875 (Separation of powers) but it was changed last summer.

And I'll refrain from commenting on the symbolism of organizing this...thing in Versailles :)

[gui45]

Good to hear. Though this line surprised me. 136 years?

It's new that the president can adress the parliament directly. It was an old law from the 2nd or 3rd republic to avoir coups d'états if I'm not mistaken. (If 136 years is the right number it means the 3rd republic (1870 - 1940)

By the way, Louis Napoleon Bonaparte was the first president of the French republic, elected in 1848, before becoming the emperor Napoleon III in 1852.

Such events are historical explanations for these old laws.

[stonecutter]

As much as I support banning religious sign and dressing at school, cause at school those are childrens and are not free, I oppose banning burka to adults who are supposed to be free.

Are you really saying that Muslim women freely make the choice to wear the burka? The burka is harsh male domination over women, who are seen as nothing more than chattel. Hardly anything free about that. I suspect many Muslim women who publicly say they "want" to be imprisoned in a medieval device do so out of fear of being beaten and/or killed if they do not kowtow to their male masters.

[Afro-European]

Finally an European leader with b*alls.Go Sarko.

[Winger]

It's just bedouin culture masked as Islam but then again Islam sprang from bedouin culture. p-)

Agreed on that. A good comparable example would be the incorporation of "pagan" traditions and dates into Christian rituals in order to make it easier to assimilate said pagans into Christianity.

[xav]

About damn time!

ps: Hopefully this won't spark another wave of riots but i doubt the racailles youngsters care about such things...
It may actually be more harmful to Rafale... as the UAE, Qatar or Koweit may reconsider their interest in buying the jet

[Paulinski]

It's a sad day when the French President has more balls then the rest of the "developed world" to call it as he sees it.

[Olybrius]

Are you really saying that Muslim women freely make the choice to wear the burka? The burka is harsh male domination over women, who are seen as nothing more than chattel. Hardly anything free about that. I suspect many Muslim women who publicly say they "want" to be imprisoned in a medieval device do so out of fear of being beaten and/or killed if they do not kowtow to their male masters.

Absolutely
Freedom .. tradition ...that's bull****s
the truth is there was absolutely no women wearing Burqa in France 10 years ago , even in the poorest suburbs ; and the recent progress of Burqa among the young muslim women is linked to the progress of religious fundamentalism among the muslim population.
When you met one of these women ,just have a look at the bearded man who come along with her and you'll stop talking of freedom or bs like that.

i don't know if a law will be the best solution to slow or stop this but hearing "Burqa is not welcome in france" is a good thing...

[tanks_alot]

Are you really saying that Muslim women freely make the choice to wear the burka?

They probably think the same way about the women we all know and love that dress in a sluty way... they might think that it's simply pressure from society that is turning women into *** objects.

If a woman is being forced against her will to be dressed in a certain way, be it a Burka or dressing like Smurf, then France should educate people to not be afraid of going to the police. heavy handed actions like this will only cause the reversed result. but who's forcing who when you ban a dress custom for an entire group of people?

[Stefan850]

Why would you leave an hotel for that? What difference does it make to you personally?
I can understand if they don't swim with a swimming cap on and than their might be hair in the pool, but if their head is covered what's the big deal?


Would you be bothered if 10 of us entered the pool with our jeans and sweatshirts on?

[Moledet]

Would you be bothered if 10 of us entered the pool with our jeans and sweatshirts on?
Nope, couldn't care less.
There's a lot more pollution in the sea and I don't mind swimming there.

[The Balkan]

Is there actually any religious purpose behind the burka , other than a debasement of women? I understand it's tradition, but that doesn't mean its ok. Good thing this is France, because there is absolutely no way we could get away with it, especially with that freedom of expression right.

bible says to cover your women with veils too :\

im pretty sure all the major religons preach "modesty"....its just the arab muslims seem to be one of the few left who still wonna follow it all strict

[tanks_alot]

Would you be bothered if 10 of us entered the pool with our jeans and sweatshirts on?

You know that children piss in pools, right? but a Burka is what will get you out of there?

[ARGAR FORKBEARD]

Has anyone else got the advert for The International Muslim matromonial site. Muslima.com

Join now its FREE!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH


HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA

AND single-muslim.com!!!! ha ha ha ha

[ARGAR FORKBEARD]

whats french for "i've got massive ball bags"???

[ARGAR FORKBEARD]

J'ai massive des sacs de ballons!! ha ha ha ha a hah ha ha ha

[Winger]

Absolutely
Freedom .. tradition ...that's bull****s
the truth is there was absolutely no women wearing Burqa in France 10 years ago , even in the poorest suburbs ; and the recent progress of Burqa among the young muslim women is linked to the progress of religious fundamentalism among the muslim population.
When you met one of these women ,just have a look at the bearded man who come along with her and you'll stop talking of freedom or bs like that.

i don't know if a law will be the best solution to slow or stop this but hearing "Burqa is not welcome in france" is a good thing...

Looking down upon it and having the cojones to speak out against it on a national level is good and all. I too think it's degrading and the women who cling to it are so immersed and ingrained in their people's ways that even enlightenment & emancipation may not dissuade some of them.

Seems many here are fond of Sarkoze's cojones. Beware, we too had a President recently with a large set of cojones.

Making any laws against it is just foolish IMO. What's next? Jews can't wear their Kipas? Seeing as I don't recall the requirement for Kipas mentioned anywhere in the Bible I'm sure many would still find it equally offensive of talk to outlaw Kipas.


Would you be bothered if 10 of us entered the pool with our jeans and sweatshirts on?

Would spare us having a look at the average unsightly persons that run about.

[Olybrius]

Looking down upon it and having the cojones to speak out against it on a national level is good and all. I too think it's degrading and the women who cling to it are so immersed and ingrained in their people's ways that even enlightenment & emancipation may not dissuade some of them.

Seems many here are fond of Sarkoze's cojones. Beware, we too had a President recently with a large set of cojones.

Making any laws against it is just foolish IMO. What's next? Jews can't wear their Kipas? Seeing as I don't recall the requirement for Kipas mentioned anywhere in the Bible I'm sure many would still find it equally offensive of talk to outlaw Kipas.

you're in melbourne , we're in France ...we will debate here and perhaps there will be a new law ..or not ...we will politely hear foreign opinion but i guess we don't really care of it.

there was already the same debate , few years ago , to ban or not religious signs in public schools ...there is a law now , kippa, heardscarfs are forbidden and it's working fine thxs.

[RoyB]

you're in melbourne , we're in France ...we will debate here and perhaps there will be a new law ..or not ...we will politely hear foreign opinion but i guess we don't really care of it.

there was already the same debate , few years ago , to ban or not religious signs in public schools ...there is a law now , kippa, heardscarfs are forbidden and it's working fine thxs.
Kippa's are banned? really?

[Olybrius]

Kippa's are banned? really?

in publics schools and administrations yes ..like any "religious ostentatious signs"

[RoyB]

in publics schools and administrations yes ..like any "religious ostentatious signs"
Where do you live?

[Moledet]

Where do you live?
He's most likely from France.
They ban anything that isn't part of French culture in order to encourage assimilation. It's weird to you because we do the exact opposite here encouraging people to keep their old culture, but each country has its own laws and it's obvious that the majority there supports it.
It's not my problem, my problem is sanctioning a business because some people swim in it with headcover on. There's no law forbidding it, so why b*tch about it?

[Spezz]

In some countries I believe you wouldn't be allowed to wear burkas because your face should be visible for safety reasons. You probably wouldn't be allowed to wear a ski-mask in the streets without being stopped by the cops every 10 minutes either.

[Karaahmetoglu]

French muslim "official" representatives like Dalil Boubakeur said that burqa isn't an islamic obligation and that it was a custom long before afghan or arabic populations became muslim. (Historians sayed that he was right).


X2

Burqa is not part of Islam.

[mas-36]

It's a sad day when the French President has more balls then the rest of the "developed world" to call it as he sees it.

Why on Earth would it be a "sad" day? Is it "sad" because the French took the lead on a major cultural issue. If Sarko is taking the lead by example, then the rest of us should learn to follow.

[LuKaZz]

The burka has nothing to do with Islam and is not mandated in the quron.

Still I think the government has no right to ban it, there are cases when the woman wants to wear it, in my region in Italy there's a local woman who appeared on the news because she converted to Islam and married an Arab and she strongly supports the burqa and wears one every day.

If I want to go around wearing a Pokemon costume I should be allowed to do so, and so should Muslim women be allowed to wear what they wish.

[Laworkerbee]

If I want to go around wearing a Pokemon costume I should be allowed to do so

I agree with you, though some of us should be allowed to hump your leg if we so wish.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

As much as I agree with the fact that they can be used to the debasement of women, I have to rule in favor of the Burka's the reason being is the State should have no business telling people what they can and cannot wear. I can't in good conscience stand up and say that banning baggy jeans is the State overstepping its bounds (in the case of the United States and urban youth) and then say the same for Burkas (in the case of France and Muslims).

Well yes and no.

I don't go around dressed as a chick 24/7 (as much as I want to) because there is a time and place for everything. Unfortunately the Burka's time and place has long passed.

[RuneX2]

Good for France. A burka is a garment designed to parade ones ****** perversions and sado-masochistic tendencies in public, not much different than if I were to dress my woman up as a naked dog with a spiked collar and walk her down the street. ****** perversions are for the private. Not the public sphere. I think the Saudi style niqab should be included in such a ban.

[stonecutter]

...I have to rule in favor of the Burka's the reason being is the State should have no business telling people what they can and cannot wear. I can't in good conscience stand up and say that banning baggy jeans is the State overstepping its bounds (in the case of the United States and urban youth) and then say the same for Burkas (in the case of France and Muslims).

If it was simply a case of clothing and style, for sure. But it's not. It's the equivalent of making a woman wear a ball and chain in public. Would the United States allow that? Don't think so...

[4X4Driver]

He's most likely from France.
They ban anything that isn't part of French culture in order to encourage assimilation.

Not all all. France is a secular/laic country and it is important for a such country to watch out for things like this. It is a good law.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

If it was simply a case of clothing and style, for sure. But it's not. It's the equivalent of making a woman wear a ball and chain in public. Would the United States allow that? Don't think so...

The US still has chain gangs man :)

[Winger]

you're in melbourne , we're in France ...we will debate here and perhaps there will be a new law ..or not ...we will politely hear foreign opinion but i guess we don't really care of it.

there was already the same debate , few years ago , to ban or not religious signs in public schools ...there is a law now , kippa, heardscarfs are forbidden and it's working fine thxs.

Banning in schools is one thing most could agree on as fair as long as no exception is made. But, what most people are talking about is being in the public at large and that is the intent of rebuke. Not just in government institutions.

Like Lukkaz said, if he wants to wear a Pokemon suit then so be it and everyone else fek off. But, leg humping is another thread altogether. p-)

Try as you might, 50% of all your women in France will be wearing Burkas in about 10 years. Good luck with that.

[3rdMillhouse]

It's a sad day when the French President has more balls then the rest of the "developed world" to call it as he sees it.

Times...... they be changing fast.

[FAI]

Litigating to ban the use of the Burka would be hypocritical towards true freedom.

Word.
......

[3rdMillhouse]

Word.
......

Bvll****, the burka is a simble male opression towards women. Women are majorly treated in muslim communities and countries as nothing more than a walking ******, whose sole purpose is to bear children. True freedom would have no human being opressed due to their gender, and therefore the bhurka should be prohibited as long it remains a representation of such opression.

[FAI]

Bvll****, the burka is a simble male opression towards women. Women are majorly treated in muslim communities and countries as nothing more than a walking ******, whose sole purpose is to bear children. True freedom would have no human being opressed due to their gender, and therefore the bhurka should be prohibited as long it remains a representation of such opression.

Ah, freedom of expression, with strings attached, conditions apply.

[FAI]

Well yes and no.

I don't go around dressed as a chick 24/7 (as much as I want to) because there is a time and place for everything. Unfortunately the Burka's time and place has long passed.

So ban it because it's obsolete and no longer fashionable? What's this, uber fashion police?

[CreepingDeath]

Bvll****, the burka is a simble male opression towards women. Women are majorly treated in muslim communities and countries as nothing more than a walking ******, whose sole purpose is to bear children. True freedom would have no human being opressed due to their gender, and therefore the bhurka should be prohibited as long it remains a representation of such opression.

I see your point there. I just realized that.p-)

In my different perspective, I've known a a co-worker and a very good friend (who's an Orthodox christian) who married a muslim wife. they are a very good and promising couple. I notice at first that she's not wearing any burqa or headscarf. I was curious but could'nt ask her until I realized I've read your post.

just my 2 cents

[sujithkochi]

So is the Sikh turbans allowed?

[Karaahmetoglu]

As a Muslim I think the French are doing the right thing. :)

There if you think otherwise you heard it from one of them.

[Thugut]

As a Muslim I think the French are doing the right thing. :)

There if you think otherwise you heard it from one of them.


It's because you are a Turk, no? You guys generally were very reasonable when it came to religion. :)

[eskachig]

I don't go around dressed as a chick 24/7 (as much as I want to) because there is a time and place for everything. Unfortunately the Burka's time and place has long passed.I don't really understand your argument - is anyone stopping you from cross dressing in public?

I say that people should have the right to wear what they want to wear, and that the French are far better off with a massive public campaign to inform Muslim women that they too can wear what they want to regardless of what their husband tells them to. Some women will prefer to stick with tradition while others will want to join the 21st century. It's not our place to judge, we just have to protect their right to choose and not have choices made for them.

Orthodox Jewish women also cover up their hair. Should we ban this custom too?

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

I'm sorry, but am I the only person here who thinks the idea of the government telling people what clothing they can and cannot wear is more than a little creepy and totalitarian?

[AZZenny]

Big difference between covering your hair or dressing modestly, and being required by the males in your family to wear a sign saying 'I am a slave.' If you think in ten years half the women will be wearing them, then now is exactly the time to cut it off. These types of clothes are an expression of the idea that women are so dangerous to men's inability to control themselves that they must be made invisible, and that's all it is. It means women's faces, their voices, their ideas must be kept out of sight. I say, F^ck That!

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Big difference between covering your hair or dressing modestly, and being required by the males in your family to wear a sign saying 'I am a slave.' If you think in ten years half the women will be wearing them, then now is exactly the time to cut it off. These types of clothes are an expression of the idea that women are so dangerous to men's inability to control themselves that they must be made invisible, and that's all it is. It means women's faces, their voices, their ideas must be kept out of sight. I say, F^ck That!There is also lots of talk of banning headscarfs and other head coverings in school in Europe and this has not been well received by Jewish and Muslim communities. Getting rid of the Burqa could be the thin end of the wedge.

[FAI]

Megaraptor;4216985']I'm sorry, but am I the only person here who thinks the idea of the government telling people what clothing they can and cannot wear is more than a little creepy and totalitarian?

You're not the only one.. :D

[kosse]

Megaraptor;4216985']I'm sorry, but am I the only person here who thinks the idea of the government telling people what clothing they can and cannot wear is more than a little creepy and totalitarian?
Europe is going to become totalitarian anyway. We might as well get good bans while we are at it.

[Tokat]

.
"The burqa is not a religious sign, it's a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement — I want to say it solemnly," he said. "It will not be welcome on the territory of the French Republic."


I likle this guy.He has common sense ,good taste of woman and he don't want to see us in EU.Can i vote for him? :hug:

[filochard]

Are you really saying that Muslim women freely make the choice to wear the burka? The burka is harsh male domination over women, who are seen as nothing more than chattel. Hardly anything free about that. I suspect many Muslim women who publicly say they "want" to be imprisoned in a medieval device do so out of fear of being beaten and/or killed if they do not kowtow to their male masters.

Adults are supposed to be free, specially those who've been in the free and secular school.
Now this freedom isn't perfect for multiple reasons and ignorance and superstition is some of them. But evaluate it for adults is too difficult and dangerous when there isn't obvious offense.
So saying it's not welcomed in the Republic, ok, make propaganda against it, ok, allow employers to fire those who display indecently there faith, ok but make a law no.

I don't know if the majority of those women are french or not. If they were all foreigners that would be simpler since foreigners have less rights than french. But it's probably not the case so I don't see how we can ban a dressing that is hurting nobody apart those who wear it.

There is already laws that can protect women if they want to escape there man oppression.

[the_13th_redneck]

If militant Islam is as a problem in your country as it is over there you'd understand.

[Bushranger]

Good to hear that. Lets see if Mr Sarkozy´s example is followed (even on a triviality like this).

IMO too much Political correctness towards minorities during last decades in Europe. You are the visitor, get used to it, and if you find it unbearable just leave.

Couldnt have said it better myself, if you dont like it go home.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Couldnt have said it better myself, if you dont like it go home.

What about Muslims that are French citizens?


Big difference between covering your hair or dressing modestly, and being required by the males in your family to wear a sign saying 'I am a slave.' If you think in ten years half the women will be wearing them, then now is exactly the time to cut it off. These types of clothes are an expression of the idea that women are so dangerous to men's inability to control themselves that they must be made invisible, and that's all it is. It means women's faces, their voices, their ideas must be kept out of sight. I say, F^ck That!

Well yes, the burqa has a very bad social message.

But so do other clothing items.

There are plenty of women who dress like sluts/whores. They are basically wearing a sign that says "I am a *** object, not a person." Should we ban that type of dress for sending bad social messages as well?

[stonecutter]

Megaraptor;4217724']
There are plenty of women who dress like sluts/whores. They are basically wearing a sign that says "I am a *** object, not a person." Should we ban that type of dress for sending bad social messages as well?

The difference is this: a woman who dresses in a revealing manner does so of her own volition. A woman who suffers under a burka does so because it is imposed upon her by men. The State cannot and does not care how people dress, but it sure as sh!t should step in when basic human rights are being violated. Unless we can demonstrate that a Muslim woman honestly wants to wear the burka, and isn't being forced into it by domineering males, then fine, it should be allowed.
Yes Filochard there are programs available to help women, but it is nonetheless very difficult for a woman to seek help when that would mean having to break the bonds of family, culture, and religion.

[3rdMillhouse]

Megaraptor;4216985']I'm sorry, but am I the only person here who thinks the idea of the government telling people what clothing they can and cannot wear is more than a little creepy and totalitarian?

It's not just a clothing, it's a symbol of opression. Why can't some people grasp that concept??

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Unless we can demonstrate that a Muslim woman honestly wants to wear the burka, and isn't being forced into it by domineering males, then fine, it should be allowed.

And since you can't really make the determination as to what these women want, isn't it best for the government to stay out of people's wardrobes?

[Delay]

Megaraptor;4217840']And since you can't really make the determination as to what these women want, isn't it best for the government to stay out of people's wardrobes?

I thought the same way too but when they allowed women to vote with their burkas on in Canada, it became a problem for me.

http://www.nowpublic.com/quebec-voting-rules-niqabs-burkas-veils-allowed

[Ozzy[NO]]

What's the difference between going into a bank wearing a balaclava(skimask) and a burqa/niqab? They're both "just clothes" right?

[Player]

Megaraptor;4216985']I'm sorry, but am I the only person here who thinks the idea of the government telling people what clothing they can and cannot wear is more than a little creepy and totalitarian?

That's a very one sided way of thinking. Sure, if the Burqa was just a Halloween-like costume, nobody would give a damn. But the problem here is that it has a much bigger meaning than just a piece of cloth - this piece of cloth is associated with oppressing women and limiting their very own freedom.

[AZZenny]

That is the other point, Ozzie, albeit a smaller one.

Easy to say 'ask the woman if its her choice' but younger women even in the UK complain they are being forced into marriages with much older men, and being literally hunted down and beaten by relatives if they ask the 'authorities' for help because they want to finish their schooling, or live a more Westernized lifestyle. What do the authorities do? They invoke 'cultural sensitivity' by asking Imams or religious community leaders... and if they try to sidestep that, they face cries for separate 'sharia courts' to handle such domestic issues -- courts where a woman has at best half the legal weight or rights of a male, and none at all compared to a father or husband.


There's your free f^cking choice.

[Rictor]

It's not just a clothing, it's a symbol of opression. Why can't some people grasp that concept??

Says you. Let's assume that there are 10,000 women in France who wear the full burka. If given a free choice, how many of those do you think would relinquish it? I would think no more than 20%, if you're lucky.

The unpleasant truth is that they want to wear it. Now whether that's because of ingrained cultural bias is irrelevant - you can't start dissecting a grown person's views and say that this is justified and this is not. In the vast majority of cases a person's religion, politics, social views and a ton of other things are determined by their upbringing. They have no more been brainwashed to accept the burka than an Amish is brainwashed to accept their lifestyle.

[Muc91]

Megaraptor;4217840']And since you can't really make the determination as to what these women want, isn't it best for the government to stay out of people's wardrobes?

One can't determine that the person wearing the burqa is actually a woman, let alone anything else.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/2207/400pxburqaafghanistan01.jpg

[Player]

One can't determine that the person wearing the burqa is actually a woman, let alone anything else.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/2207/400pxburqaafghanistan01.jpg

Because men are known to wear Burqa a lot. :roll:

[Muc91]

Because men are known to wear Burqa a lot. :roll:

Only on special occasions :roll:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,459025,00.html

[RxOnco]

Only on special occasions :roll:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,459025,00.html

And sometimes in the workplace...

http://dufferinpark.ca/market/photos/beekeeper.jpg

[Player]

Only on special occasions :roll:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,459025,00.html

I don't get it, what's your point? How does this the fact that Burqas are obviously made to limit the freedom of women and the fact that 99% of the users of Burqa are actually women?

[Muc91]

I don't get it, what's your point?

My point would be that wearing the burqa limits the freedom of women and presents a security problem in every day life. As it completely covers the face of the person wearing it, it's the same as a balaclava or a motorcycle helmet with a tinted visor from a security point of view.

I have a question, how are women with burqas identified by the police or other security services? Are there some special guidelines in communicating with them? For example, are only female officers allowed to see their face and ID them?

[filochard]

Yes Filochard there are programs available to help women, but it is nonetheless very difficult for a woman to seek help when that would mean having to break the bonds of family, culture, and religion.

the point is: if they want to escape, they can.
sorry if I'm too theorical but I think it's good to have guidelines, and the Republican ideal is the one I have adopted and is the one France is supposed to have adopted as well.
Thanksfully, this ideal is secular and is the best weapon against ignorance and superstition. Now there is also the fact in this ideal, Liberty can only be limited to defend other people's Rights. And I'm sorry but in this case, wearing a burka in public doesn't offend any people's Right. There is some case it could be banned, like at work, on administrations, public swimming pools or for voting, but just wearing it is obviously not an offense to anybody.
That's a question of education, there is no way a rational person would wear such an uncomfortable and ridiculous dressing. Lets just stick with our values, they are good and universal, if taught properly, the burka will go by itself.

[3rdMillhouse]

Lets just stick with our values, they are good and universal, if taught properly, the burka will go by itself.

That's the most important, just banning the burka won't do any good by itself if the French private and public education system don't teach that both men and women are equal under the constitution.

[B_706K]

;4217865']What's the difference between going into a bank wearing a balaclava(skimask) and a burqa/niqab? They're both "just clothes" right?
This is the question that has always bugged me.. :|

[Rictor]

That's the most important, just banning the burka won't do any good by itself if the French private and public education system don't teach that both men and women are equal under the constitution.

I would imagine that they do. I can't imagine the law being relaxed to quite that extent for private schools.

[AZZenny]

the point is: if they want to escape, they can.


The point is, they cannot.

There have been several cases in the UK and Europe of young Islamic women who wanted to live a western lifestyle trying to escape and being hunted down by relatives and beaten, kidnapped, etc.

You've heard of honor killings? Is it a choice when you grow up knowing it's wear a burkha or your family may kill you?

[filochard]

The point is, they cannot.

There have been several cases in the UK and Europe of young Islamic women who wanted to live a western lifestyle trying to escape and being hunted down by relatives and beaten, kidnapped, etc.

You've heard of honor killings? Is it a choice when you grow up knowing it's wear a burkha or your family may kill you?

There is already laws that forbid beating and kidnapping. The point is that it's those who beat and kidnapp that are going to be hunted down.
I don't see why we would do special laws for very few cases that have more to do with sect than religion.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

I thought the same way too but when they allowed women to vote with their burkas on in Canada, it became a problem for me.

http://www.nowpublic.com/quebec-voting-rules-niqabs-burkas-veils-allowed

Why should people have to partly de-robe in order to vote???

[Winger]

Megaraptor;4218415']Why should people have to partly de-robe in order to vote???

I'm not sure but wouldn't it be required in order to properly establish identity? Removing the covering over the face could be considered de-robing.

[stonecutter]

The point is, they cannot.
There have been several cases in the UK and Europe of young Islamic women who wanted to live a western lifestyle trying to escape and being hunted down by relatives and beaten, kidnapped, etc.
You've heard of honor killings? Is it a choice when you grow up knowing it's wear a burkha or your family may kill you?

Indeed. I know for a fact it's hard enough for Western women who are abused to seek help at a shelter, I can't imagine what it would be like for an immigrant woman in a new country, where all she has is her family and her culture.

[Narvaresearch]

Muc91 has a very good point. It also can become a security issue. Sarkozy isn't banning the dress, it's just "a sign of the subjugation of women" according to him.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

I'm not sure but wouldn't it be required in order to properly establish identity? Removing the covering over the face could be considered de-robing.

This could be done in a back room for the few people who had a problem with it.

[tea drinker]

Burqa is a sign of the stone age. Thing should be feckin banned.
What amazes me is how many of them I saw in Dublin compared to Casablanca (almost none)

[FAI]

;4217865']What's the difference between going into a bank wearing a balaclava(skimask) and a burqa/niqab? They're both "just clothes" right?
ban balaclava, ban tinted helmet, yay.

[karimlan]

Good on Sarkozy.

[Heinemann]

I saw an interview with a Muslima on the news about this, she said the burqa is there to protect the women from rape and assults. But the way I see it, if you have a tent over your body your eye sight, hearing, smell are distorted meaning you are less likely to anticipate or survive an attack. I cant imagine how difficult it would be to try and run whilst wearing one.

While some Muslimas do have a choice in wearing a burqa most dont. Many are pressured by their husbands or fathers, I can recall a number of "honor" killings that have taken place due to this fact alone.

[hskywalker]

So france can tolerate people with green hair but not women covering their faces? I guess this is modernization...

[AZZenny]

Really good article.



No sane, free person would choose to wear a burka

By Licia Corbella, Calgary Herald June 27, 2009



A while back I was asked to give a talk at my kids' school about my December 2003 trip to Afghanistan.

As I waited to be introduced, I hid in an auditorium storage room wearing a burka I bought in that war-ravaged country, thinking I'd be out in a minute, maybe two. But the introduction took a lot longer than I had anticipated and by the time I came out to greet all those shining faces, I was very nearly hyperventilating from the oppression of it. I didn't time my self-imposed confinement to the burka, but I probably wore the suffocating tent-like garment with mesh over my eyes for no more than 10 minutes. I told the kids I felt like I was buried alive.

I also told them that while in Afghanistan, I asked all of the many women I met there whether they liked wearing a burka. Not one said yes. In fact, they all said they hated it almost as much as they hated the Taliban. It's no wonder. The burka's toll on these women was harsh. Many had lost most of their teeth and hair as a result of not having enough vitamin D, which comes from the sun. During the time of Taliban rule--from September 1996 to November 2001 --no portion of their skin, save their hands, was ever allowed to be exposed to sunlight. Think about the horror of that. The Taliban insisted that homes with women in them had to blacken their windows, lest a man pollute his delicate sensibilities by gazing upon the uncovered face of a woman behind the glass.

On Monday, French President Nicolas Sarkozy stated during the first presidential address to a joint session of France's two legislative houses of Parliament in 136 years, that the burka was "not welcome" in France.
"We cannot accept to have in our country women who are prisoners behind netting, cut off from all social life, deprived of identity," said Sarkozy.

He's right. Women in burkas don't seem human. After just a short while in Afghanistan, women in their blue burkas seem like ghostly apparitions devoid of a face, individuality or humanity.

At first, when my translators would tap me on the shoulder and suggest I "take a picture of that burka over there," I would gently correct them by saying, "you mean, that WOMAN in the burka?" In a couple of days, however, I too was referring to them as simply burkas.

In France--where it's already illegal to wear any conspicuous religious symbol in state schools including a head scarf--a parliamentary committee is studying the issue of whether or not to allow women to cover their faces for supposedly religious reasons. As Sarkozy said, the burka is "not a sign of religion, it is a sign of subservience." The Muslim Canadian Congress agrees and urged Canada's government to ban the burka.

[Excalibur]

i was sure that france is free country and everyone can wear whatever he/she likes. :roll:

[AZZenny]

77555
Rural Afghan man herding his chattel


How can you guys keep missing the point -- women do not want or like to wear these things -- it damages their physical health, but they are required to wear it by husbands and fathers and religious leaders (and yes, I know it's not officially part of Islam, but the people who enforce it believe it is). It is part of a coercive social system that traps women as nameless, shapeless, faceless, powerless forms -- try working at most jobs in a Burqa. Imagine never being allowed to have the sun on your face.

In the US we used to talk about rural, uneducated fundamentalist Bible thumpers keeping 'their women' 'barefoot and pregnant.' This is an exact analogy.