Should we reintroduce the abyonnet in the IDF?

[gilgoul]

To the light of some actions in Iraq by the glorious british army, including a bayonnet charge (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14993&highlight=), I was wondering about the validity of the Israeli concept whhich completely discarded the very Idea of bayonet.
Not that bayonet charge should be a part of the doctrine, but more an emergency solution.
The fact that most soldiers aren`t equiped even with a solid knife is somewhat bothersome to me, but maybe i`m just old school :oops:

[Herrmannek]

but tavor has bayonet lug?

[gilgoul]

but tavor has bayonet lug?

I don`t know, but in anyway we ll be using the m16/M4 for a while, so it`s not too much of a problem.

Actually, I like the french bayonet of the FAMAS, even if not the sharpest, it was really strong and sturdy.

[W(M)D]

To the light of some actions in Iraq by the glorious british army, including a bayonnet charge (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14993&highlight=), I was wondering about the validity of the Israeli concept whhich completely discarded the very Idea of bayonet.
Not that bayonet charge should be a part of the doctrine, but more an emergency solution.
The fact that most soldiers aren`t equiped even with a solid knife is somewhat bothersome to me, but maybe i`m just old school :oops:

The bayonet is a welcome addition and obviously good for close up killing. IDF concept however is application of weapon systems and the average British infantry section is not usually as heavily armed as it's IDF counterpart in conventional warfighting.
Also, the British army has a reputation of using the bayonet to good effect over the centuries.

[perdurabo]

brits are just crazy mofos bayonet charges in XXI cent just like good ol times in waterloo :lol: :lol:

[big80a2]

well IMO that would only make the media more outrages... :|

but it aint bad idee

[oldsoak]

It has its uses - a sharp knife is always handy. However, bear in mind that slowly and surely soldiers are getting body armour, and a bayonet may not be able to get past them. Best get a knife which can function as a bayonet - rather than the other way around.

[Mongrel]

A bayonet is a better option then a knife IMHO.

You are already holding yor rifle in front of you, and fumbling around past all your clip holders, pouches, and canteens for your knife with a pair of gloves on is Waaaay to much time for the other guy to rifle butt you in the head or bayonet you first.

And you can still fire off a round or two if you have any left.

Then you have the issue of reach..the guy with the knife is at a disadvantage to the guy with a bayonet with regards to reach.

This of course is all moot if none of the combatants involved are trained with the weapons they are issued.

Regardless of Armour it will always have the same limitations of the human form it is covering..ie the need for openings under the arms, open face, and such. These limitations shall never change, and the face is the primary bayonet target from what I have seen and read.

Issue of mass... a bayonet offers much more force behind the thrust then a knife alone, as you bring with the thrust the rifles mass with the thrust. You can also use the rifle as a club, and parry with it.

IMHO an army that drops this well established method of combat from its forces is leaving itself open to big problems, and is being foolish.
It also adds a level of intimidation that a rifle alone lacks.

Finaly I say to hell with worring about the media..they are not havig to deal with someone trying to kill them.

Cheers!
M.

[Ratamacue]

The US still issues the M9 bayonet and trains with it.

[Herrmannek]

Modern rifles(plastic ones) are probably to fragile to be used as clubs or serious force multipliers...

[captainfly]

The bayonet and the use of it are very good at intimidating an enemy and to go one step further than that, the British 1/7th Gurkha’s in the Falklands conflict, rumour in the Argentinean ranks about their use of the Kukri, meant they were unopposed at Mount William. So having big sharp shiney things and the spirit to use them is all part of soldiering, Not issuing bayonets is like going to war only having helicopters and no tanks ;)

[Moledet]

Who said that IDF soldiers don't get one? My father served in 1973 and 1982 (paratroppers) and he has one M16 bayonet and one Galil bayonet. I think that in wars you get them.

[UoUo]

What the **** is bayonet ???????
:bash: :fork: :bash:
Knive???? :oops: :oops:

[Moledet]

What the f*** is bayonet ???????
:bash: :fork: :bash:
Knive???? :oops: :oops:
Kidon or in other words a rifle with a knife.

[UoUo]

What the f*** is bayonet ???????
:bash: :fork: :bash:
Knive???? :oops: :oops:
Kidon or in other words a rifle with a knife.


Oh..thanks.... :oops: :D

[Mongrel]

Here is a fun pokey things site:

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/3-25.150/ch7.htm

Cheers!
M.

[martinexsquaddie]

unless your serious about using bayonets.
and certain units of the british army its nearly a fetish :roll:
its just another pound of junk to hang on a belt

[gilgoul]

Who said that IDF soldiers don't get one? My father served in 1973 and 1982 (paratroppers) and he has one M16 bayonet and one Galil bayonet. I think that in wars you get them.
then you don`t train with them :(
Try to get your knife between the ribs of someone,, and then pull it out, it`s not neceseraly that esay.
I know of a case with a knife that got stuck in someone `s chest, and asked for tremendous effort to be retrieved (it was a USAF survival knife with this handy but -stupid-in-combat saw blade)
I personnaly still doubt about the use of "only bayonet`d like to see a camilius with a optional mount.
that`s for my 5 agorot. :oops:

[Mongrel]

Train with the blade you are issued.

Sounds like the saw got hung up on the ribs.

The Marines prob' have a tech' to get that knife out of a chest..prob' a swift boot next to the wound coupled with a sharp pull, and twist (away from your leg) to make an air pocket...as some tissue can also form a strong suction around a blade.

Dirty work, but notice that there isn't 30+ UK soldiers lined up in blindfolds on TV waiting to loose their heads...they fought their way out.

I'm glad to see they still train with them.

Cheers!
M.

[gilgoul]

Train with the blade you are issued.

Sounds like the saw got hung up on the ribs.

The Marines prob' have a tech' to get that knife out of a chest..prob' a swift boot next to the wound coupled with a sharp pull, and twist (away from your leg) to make an air pocket...as some tissue can also form a strong suction around a blade.

Dirty work, but notice that there isn't 30+ UK soldiers lined up in blindfolds on TV waiting to loose their heads...they fought their way out.

I'm glad to see they still train with them.

Cheers!
I personaly held a camilius, wich i love even if somewhat worn out alittle.
Not that I trust my hand to han capacities :oops: , but not giving a chance to luck anyway
M.

[Chris1]

and certain units of the british army its nearly a fetish :roll:

Slander that is! What d'ya mean "Nearly"!!
In and twist!

[Mongrel]

"Very few people have ever been killed with the bayonet or saber, but
the fear of having their guts explored with cold steel in the hands of
battle-maddened men has won many a fight."
-PATTON

woot
Cheers!
M.

[martinexsquaddie]

ah the good old days of smg bayonet drills
sandbags full of offal :lol:
up at 4am 9 changing parades and other bull**** and then give a bayonet and pointed down range :lol: rofl.
Chris1 I thought the falling plates perferred entenching tools :(

[oldsoak]

ah the good old days of smg bayonet drills
sandbags full of offal :lol:
up at 4am 9 changing parades and other bull**** and then give a bayonet and pointed down range :lol: rofl.
Chris1 I thought the falling plates perferred entenching tools :(

- aaah.... full parades immediately followed by the assault course and log run...

I know this is off topic, but it is sort of related so I'll ask because I have no shame - I have seen a bowie style knife being marketed over here as an Israeli commando knife. Its well made, but I'm curious if it is what it claims to be. Hers a link - any ideas the Israelis on this forum ?
http://www.quickknife.com/sh71690.html

[IDFM203]

gilgoul great threat starter, for indeed we don’t have a bayonet these days and I agree I think we should.

Now I remember I asked that question and got an answerer that we don’t use it for its against the Geneva convention to use it, and I remember that I always found that to be absurd.

Then sometime when I first came on this forum, I mentioned in some conversation that we don’t use it because of the prohibition in the Geneva convention and was told by many ( I hope correctly ;) ) that there is no such prohibition and I was told here that I got the wrong info.

So then perhaps it is our own moral codes and rules, for if not the Geneva convention then I assume it’s that.

Anyways either way, I think its wrong and I do believe we should be equipped with one, especially since most of us are heavily involved in close quarters combat most of the time.

Shalom :D

[Mongrel]

The only thing I have read regarding Geneva convention, and bayonetts is the shape of the blade..ie triangular blade inflicts nasty, hard to heal wounds so they are not allowed.

Thats about it.

Cheers!
M

[Chris1]

Chris1 I thought the falling plates perferred entenching tools :(
That was below the belt wasn't it
hey, at least I didn't have to go to move towers about for six months because no-one has anything better to do :)

(to the people wondering what we're on about, two former members of my Regiment murdered and buried a woman in Cyprus, resulting in hefty convictions for those involved and the Regiment being banned from serving on the Island.
10% rule applies.)

On-topic
I have not heard of such a prohibition.
Have heard it is if they are serrated though.

[Steel21]

Have you thought about the fact that with the bayonet attached demonstrators arent as likely to tug on the muzzles?

Yes, it would also classify as a less than lethal measure :D

[captainfly]

Could the lack of an issued bayonet mean that the IDF are as competent and aggressive with their KFS sets (especially the 'S') as the British Paras???? :roll: :lol:

[Michael RVR]

On-topic
I have not heard of such a prohibition.
Have heard it is if they are serrated though.

I heard it was only if they were rusty ;)

The ones we use have a serrated edge, which supposedly you can use for cutting logs with - not that i've ever seen it done.
In the drills you put your foot on the enemy's chest to pull it out woot

[W(M)D]

- aaah.... followed by the assault course and log run...


I thought that the assualt course or log run or NBC training was always done after heavy lunches :lol:

[gilgoul]

gilgoul great threat starter, for indeed we don’t have a bayonet these days and I agree I think we should.

Now I remember I asked that question and got an answerer that we don’t use it for its against the Geneva convention to use it, and I remember that I always found that to be absurd.

Then sometime when I first came on this forum, I mentioned in some conversation that we don’t use it because of the prohibition in the Geneva convention and was told by many ( I hope correctly ;) ) that there is no such prohibition and I was told here that I got the wrong info.

So then perhaps it is our own moral codes and rules, for if not the Geneva convention then I assume it’s that.

Anyways either way, I think its wrong and I do believe we should be equipped with one, especially since most of us are heavily involved in close quarters combat most of the time.

Shalom :D


What is funny is that I got the exact same answer, weird :D , my guess is that they don`t want to see too many bayonnets desapearing too fast ;)

[Raistlin]

The fact that most soldiers aren`t equiped even with a solid knife is somewhat bothersome to me
I find it strange too. No knife. No bayonet. No even a sidearm. (for regular grunts)


Kidon or in other words a rifle with a knife.
Isn't it double sided? In which case it's a dagger and not a knife. (being analy retentive here, move along)

[digrar]

In an Australian section almost half of the blokes can't fit a bayonet to their weapon (with ugls and minimi's), which makes the bayonet charge a bit of a half hearted affair.


Modern rifles(plastic ones) are probably to fragile to be used as clubs or serious force multipliers...

The Steyr is certainly tough enough for bayonet fighting although IMO it's a bit short to be really effective.

[martinexsquaddie]

the sa 80 is a bullpup but still effective if the bloke prepared to use it
fortunatlty the idf seem to think 60 rounds isn't really enough :lol:

[Werewolf01]

The bayonet is certainly a daunting weapon. Close combat has always had a way of sorting the victor and the vanquished out rather quickly. I think it should be issued to the IDF if it currently is not. The US has always issued bayonets and continues to. I think the M9 is probably ideal from a functionality point of view. Its pretty impressive looking attached to an M4 or an M16a2 or A4. But, IMHO, for close up work the Mossberg 590 with the M9 attached settles fights pretty quickly. Its pretty demoralizing just to look at! :-*$

[flanker7]

Chris1 I thought the falling plates perferred entenching tools :(
That was below the belt wasn't it
hey, at least I didn't have to go to move towers about for six months because no-one has anything better to do :)

(to the people wondering what we're on about, two former members of my Regiment murdered and buried a woman in Cyprus, resulting in hefty convictions for those involved and the Regiment being banned from serving on the Island.
10% rule applies.)

On-topic
I have not heard of such a prohibition.
Have heard it is if they are serrated though.


If I remember correctly the woman was Swedish, :(

[Sabre]

Just as a matter of note, the action in Iraq wasn't a 'bayonet charge'. It was simply the use of bayonets in the manner in which current tactics dictate. The bayonets were used during the 'fight through' part of the section battle drills. Fire and manouver being used to get the assaulting pair close enough to the enemy position until they can fight through, using full auto, boots, helmets, bayonets, fists etc to kill the enemy. That is what they are taught. Bayonets are meant to be used in the following circumstances:

-Close quarters
-Risk of Blue on Blue (sort of CQB)
-low on, or out of ammo
-empty mag at close quarters
-can't remember the rest, but there's more! ;)

It's not the easiest way to kill the enemy, but it is better than rolling around on the floor with them trying to top eachother. It is good as a last-ditch resort if you empty a magazine while in the enemy position and have no time to reload (although that's why you go in pairs, you would drop on the ground and the other guy would spray the enemy)

All in all, it is good for conventional infantry DA-type engagements. I don't think it is necessary to carry one all the time, but if I was off to do a platoon/company/battalion attack, i'd take it.

[martinexsquaddie]

the idf seem to carry a lot more rounds
certain quaters of the mod belive 60 rounds is perfectly ok to go into battle with :(

[Raistlin]

What is the regular procedure in the IDF infantry to when your weapon jams or breaks in the middle of a battle? If it's not under OPSEC....

[W(M)D]

.......I find it strange too. No knife. No bayonet. No even a sidearm. (for regular grunts)

A proportion of guys used to have their own private licensed pistols (almost standard amongst officers).

Raistlin - as for rifle stoppages in operation, there is only one solution: to clear it using the relevant stoppage drill (no great secret there). If it breaks during use (e.g. firing pin, etc), then you're screwed until the battalion jobnik armourer ('nashak') can repair or replace your weapon.

[Raistlin]

Ouch. I just can envision a number of situations where this problem can be lethal...