Jewish School's Racially-Based Admissions Ruled Illegal

[LordKitchener]

Jewish schools may have to change admissions rules after the Appeal Court held that ethnic tests of Jewishness amount to racial discrimination.
A London school, the JFS, rejected a boy whose mother's conversion to Judaism it did not recognise.

Faith schools may discriminate on religious grounds but the Court of Appeal held that this involved a test of ethnicity - which is unlawful.
The United Synagogue says this will have "a very serious effect".

In future schools would need to adopt a test of religious practice and guidance would be issued on this - pending a successful appeal or change in the law.

The state-funded JFS, formerly the Jews' Free School, is heavily over-subscribed.

It gives preference to applicants whose "Jewish status" is confirmed by the United Synagogue - which requires that the mother be Jewish.
It has pupils from a wide range of religious and cultural backgrounds including from atheist, Catholic or Muslim families - but whose mothers are, in its terms, Jewish.

The boy - named in court only as M - has a Jewish father. His mother converted to the Jewish faith before he was born but had been a Roman Catholic.

But the conversion was not recognised because it was conducted in a Progressive not an Orthodox synagogue.
Motive

The three judges - Lords Justice Sedley and Rimer, and Lady Justice Smith - said it was clear that Jews constituted a racial group defined principally by ethnic origin and additionally by conversion.

To discriminate against a person on the ground that they were or were not Jewish was therefore to discriminate on racial grounds.

"The motive for the discrimination, whether benign or malign, theological or supremacist, makes it no less and no more unlawful."

They said: "The refusal of JFS to admit M was accordingly, in our judgment, less favourable treatment of him on racial grounds.

"This does not mean ... that no Jewish faith school can ever give preference to Jewish children. It means that, as one would expect, eligibility must depend on faith, however defined, and not on ethnicity."

The United Synagogue said the decision affected any branch of Judaism that defines who is a Jew on the basis of descent (whether matrilineal or patrilineal).

It said Jewish schools of any sort - Reform, Liberal, Masorti, Charedi, Orthodox, Federation and so on - would be prohibited from giving priority to applicants who were a member of the Jewish faith.

It added: "In future, all Jewish schools (whether state or independent) will need to adopt a religious practice test, until such time as the Court of Appeal's ruling is successfully overturned or a legislative amendment is made."

"Unless the Court of Appeal decision is overturned on appeal it will have a very serious effect on all Jewish schools and on many of our communal organisations."

So it strongly supported the decision of the governors of JFS to seek leave to appeal and was consulting its own advisers on what else might be done.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8118828.stm

I still find it perplexing that tax-payers are forced to fund schools like this. Is there supposed to be some intellectual or cultural benefit from doing so?

[Hialeah]

This is strange, if the boy's father is a Jew and the boy follows Jewish customs then why should it be an issue? Anyways this is coming from a country who banned Jews from living there.

[Ordie]

This is strange, if the boy's father is a Jew and the boy follows Jewish customs then why should it be an issue? Anyways this is coming from a country who banned Jews from living there.

Jewish lineage is traditionally passed through the mother. It's based on the premise that one may have many fathers, but always a single mother. Very clever means of survival through many centuries.

Given that the Church of England is the state religion of the UK, with it's head of state as it's leader, I guess they allow state subsidy for parochial schools.

[Russianlynxy]

I think it is fine to have religious schools, Sunday School, Orthodox/Catholic schools. But regular secular schools that admit Jews only is discrimination.

[Hialeah]

Jewish lineage is traditionally passed through the mother. It's based on the premise that one may have many fathers, but always a single mother. Very clever means of survival through many centuries.

Given that the Church of England is the state religion of the UK, with it's head of state as it's leader, I guess they allow state subsidy for parochial schools.

I know, I am Jewish, though my argument is if converts can can get into Israel the the boy should be admitted into the school.

[Hialeah]

What I mean is there should be a better way in deciding whether or not someone's ancestry determines one's "Jewishness".

[Hollis]

I know, I am Jewish, though my argument is if converts can can get into Israel the the boy should be admitted into the school.


Problem, as it is in the article, depends on who does the conversion (what Branch of Judaism). Actually this is a religious issue.

[Hoodless]

i hate this crap.

in order to be 'jewish' according to those ****s, you need to have a jewish mother. and if she did convert it has to have been an authordox conversion. no reform or anything else.

same crap also occurs in israel. to have a wedding you need to be 'jewish'. no such thing as civil marriage. although it did come up in the elections...

[acosta]

at some point, it's up to people's inclination.

rules are rules, but as to respect of human being, if he desperately wants to be a Jew, that's a real shame.

so it's illegal, that's Judge rules.

[Hialeah]

Well Orthodox Jews are never satisfied with anything and as far what branches exist in the UK I won't pretend to know anything about them. Ashkenazim had always played favourite to other European Jews so I wouldn't be suprised if that is a factor. But can someone explain the "racial discrimination" term in the UK as I understand it holds a broader meaning than in the US.

[LRPV]

This is strange, if the boy's father is a Jew and the boy follows Jewish customs then why should it be an issue? Anyways this is coming from a country who banned Jews from living there.

Most Jewish schools are orthodox. Orthodoxy only recognises matrilineal Jewish descent. Progressive/Liberal Judaism recognises both matrilineal and patrilineal descent. In my city Progressive Jewish kids are not welcome in our one Jewish school unless they practise according to the orthodox observance.

[LRPV]

Problem, as it is in the article, depends on who does the conversion (what Branch of Judaism). Actually this is a religious issue.

Correct. It is not a racial issue.

[Hialeah]

Most Jewish schools are orthodox. Orthodoxy only recognises matrilineal Jewish descent. Progressive/Liberal Judaism recognises both matrilineal and patrilineal descent. In my city Progressive Jewish kids are not welcome in our one Jewish school unless they practise according to the orthodox observance.

I was raised Reform and all I can see is the Orthodox Jews are really trying to thin their ranks.

[JJC]

i hate this crap.

in order to be 'jewish' according to those ****s, you need to have a jewish mother. and if she did convert it has to have been an authordox conversion. no reform or anything else.

same crap also occurs in israel. to have a wedding you need to be 'jewish'. no such thing as civil marriage. although it did come up in the elections...

Honestly, if Orthodox communities would not adhere to this strict rules, Judaism would not survive through what it went through. Look at the history of reform and conservative movements in the U.S. and the rate of assimilation and disappearance of Jewish identities from these movements. Israel is a secular state and I wouldn't look up to Israeli politicians and secular laws that change all the time if I were concerned with preserving future generations of Jewish communities, religion, history, culture.

When I was applying for Jewish schools, besides my testing scores, my parents had to prove orthodox authenticity of their Ketubah (marriage license.) My cousin was not admitted into the school because his mother's conversion is from a reform rabbi. And honestly, if you look at his mother, one day she is wearing a cross and celebrates Catholic holidays, and on Jewish holidays she somehow "observes" Jewish laws. You can't have it both ways. Religion and traditions is not a fashion brand and is not to be used for convenience when it comes to orthodox jewish institutions. I also know a guy from college with Irish background who was adopted by modern orthodox Jeiwsh parents when he was a baby, but had to go through an official conversion at 13 just like Halacha states. He is an accepted orthodox Jew in his community.

Even, with in Orthodox Jewish communities there is "discrimination." Sephardi sects don't accept Litvish black hatters, just like some elite modern orthodox schools in Long Island will avoid some Israeli mizrahi, spehardi or a hassid. They all do it to preserve their community roots and values. Discrimination is present in secular schools as well. For example some elite prep schools in the city will look at your parents' college education before they consider you, and it better be from some brand name colleges not just an ordinary college.

[LRPV]

I was raised Reform and all I can see is the Orthodox Jews are really trying to thin their ranks.

Theirs or ours?p-)

[Hialeah]

The Orthodox's, if their running schools then they really should pay more attention to academics than to ancesty.

[LineDoggie]

i hate this crap.

in order to be 'jewish' according to those ****s, you need to have a jewish mother. and if she did convert it has to have been an authordox conversion. no reform or anything else.

same crap also occurs in israel. to have a wedding you need to be 'jewish'. no such thing as civil marriage. although it did come up in the elections...
how do Israel's Muslim Arabs (like the druze, and bedouin) get married then?

[JJC]

The Orthodox's, if their running schools then they really should pay more attention to academics than to ancesty.

How do you know that they don't? Not all orthodox schools are the same,just like not all secular schools are the same. I can tell you that in NYC, some orthodox run Jewish schools have very good records at academics and pump out students with high SAT scores and admissions into Ivy annually.

[Hialeah]

How do you know that they don't? Not all orthodox schools are the same,just like not all secular schools are the same. I can tell you that in NYC, some orthodox run Jewish schools have very good records at academics and pump out students with high SAT scores and admissions into Ivy annually.

That was in reference to this particular school but discrimination between Jewish groups is an issue regardless and despite the keeping roots argument it in the end were all Jews.

[JJC]

That was in reference to this particular school but discrimination between Jewish groups is an issue regardless and despite the keeping roots argument it in the end were all Jews.
Open any Gemora and you will see infighting and disagreements form line one. 2 Jews 3 opinions is how we run things.p-)

[Hialeah]

Open any Gemora and you will see infighting and disagreements form line one. 2 Jews 3 opinions is how we run things.p-)

We are a strange people indeed, if anything our food is a redeeming quality.

[AZZenny]

how do Israel's Muslim Arabs (like the druze, and bedouin) get married then?

In Israel Christians can have Christian religious marriages and Muslims or Druze have their religious marriages, however their own authorities define it. But if you are a Jew, if you marry in Israel, it must be under Orthodox Judaism. Many secular Israeli Jews go overseas and marry; when they return Israel recognizes their civil marriage anyhow. It's pretty strange.

It seems very clear the UK judges are total ignoramuses about Judaism and Jews, or religion generally. It would be like them saying that a strict Roman Catholic school must accept a Baptist because they're all Christian, or a Wahhabi school must accept a Lebanese Shia because they're all Muslim Arabs.

[Hialeah]

In Israel Christians can have Christian religious marriages and Muslims or Druze have their religious marriages, however their own authorities define it. But if you are a Jew, if you marry in Israel, it must be under Orthodox Judaism. Many secular Israeli Jews go overseas and marry; when they return Israel recognizes their civil marriage anyhow. It's pretty strange.

It seems very clear the UK judges are total ignoramuses about Judaism and Jews, or religion generally. It would be like them saying that a strict Roman Catholic school must accept a Baptist because they're all Christian, or a Wahhabi school must accept a Lebanese Shia because they're all Muslim Arabs.

How is it that groups like the B'nai Moshe can get into Israel when they really aren't Jewish? I was thinking about going but I am not so sure anymore.

[WKD]

It seems very clear the UK judges are total ignoramuses about Judaism and Jews, or religion generally. It would be like them saying that a strict Roman Catholic school must accept a Baptist because they're all Christian, or a Wahhabi school must accept a Lebanese Shia because they're all Muslim Arabs.

It's not about being ignorant of religion, it's about how the activities of the religion translate under British law. If you had read the article you would have seen that the students of the school are not all themselves by religion jewish, only their mothers are orthodox. So under British law, irrespective of jewish customs (which have no effect on the legality of any action in Britain, strangely enough), it becomes an ethnic selection, not religious.

So it what the judge knows of jewish customs is completely irrelevant. It's what the judge knows about British law, which funnily enough they are an expert in. And funnily enough, British law is the more important factor.

[AZZenny]

I was thinking about going but I am not so sure anymore.

If you haven't been, you really should go. Israel is an incredible place (and I follow none of the involved religions so have no dog in that fight), and Israelis are great people, incredibly generous and funny. But contentious! two Israelis, four opinions, and that's when they agree. And they deserve the reputation for being direct and blunt, but to me that was a relief, once I got used to it.

I think there's all kinds of weird politics with groups like B'nai Moshe. I seem to recall at some point they must do a form of Orthodox conversion. That was required of many rescued Ethiopian Jews, IIRC, and understandably many were offended not to be considered Jews.

My daughter converted to Reform Judaism ten years ago (her father's side was Jewish) and although technically she's not 'Jew enough' for the official religious powers-that-be in Israel, she was deeply moved when I took her last Fall.

[AZZenny]

It's not about being ignorant of religion, it's about how the activities of the religion translate under British law. If you had read the article you would have seen that the students of the school are not all themselves by religion jewish, only their mothers are orthodox.


I did read the article. However, after going through my daughter's situation (even her Reform Synagogue wanted her to do just short of an Orthodox conversion), I can assure you that it in fact IS about religion.

Judaism has used only matrilineal descent for thousands of years, and only in the past century or so, I believe, have newer denominations regarded patrilineal descent.

By definition, an Orthodox Jewish mother's children are Jewish, whether they practice or not. (In much the same way that a Muslim father's children are Muslim, regardless of the mother's religion or status.) It's not 'racial' -- a Yemeni Orthodox Jewish mother (i.e. Arab racially), an Ashkenazi Orthodox Jewish mother (European racially), an Orthodox Ethiopian Jewish mother (African racially) or a Navajo or Inuit woman who converted under Orthodox Judaism (Amerindian racially) etc etc are all equally Jewish and their kids can get into the school.

[Fake - IDF-Soldier82]

I'm sad to see that some courts are run by left wing anti-semites,

IMO "palestinians" are nothing more than illegal immigrants.

[Angelino]

We are a strange people indeed, if anything our food is a redeeming quality.
Well, let's not forget the hot Jewish chicks either.

[Hialeah]

I want to immigrate, I fit the criteria both parents were Jews etc... but Hebrew is an issue.

[WKD]

By definition, an Orthodox Jewish mother's children are Jewish, whether they practice or not.

I've only quoted this part because it's enough to make my point, which is probably what lies at the heart of the matter. By who's definition? I think the problem you're getting into is that the legal system in the UK will use it's own definition of what does and does not define an ethnicity, and what is or is not ethnic discrimination, then will interpret the laws (which knowing the legal system, are probably convoluted and obtuse) pertaining to this accordingly. It doesn't matter what the Jews themselves believe. If their actions can be interpreted as ethnic discrimination in the eyes of the British legal system, then it doesn't matter if it's been done for thousands of years, it's still ethnic discrimination in the eyes of the British legal system, and in Britain that's all that actually matters. Too bad. What jewish people think about this, or what their customs are, is once again completely irrelevent.

The judge does not have to be expert in religion, or jewish custom, because all that matters is the law, and the judge is an expert in that.

[AZZenny]

Well, I'm eager to see them apply the same 'racist' label to Islam when the opportunity arises, as it inevitably will.

But my problem with it is that the court is saying a religion can't define it's own membership criteria. There are a number of religions that are to a large extent ethnically-defined -- far more than Orthodox Judaism. The Hopi -- you are born into the religion; you can leave off practice, but no one can decide to join. The Druze believe in within-group reincarnation, and afaik, do not accept 'outsiders.' You are a Druze because of your lineage. I'm sure there are other religions that to some extent define membership by virtue of one or another aspect of birth. I certainly have heard and read that a child of a Muslim father IS a Muslim, whether he or she knows it or likes it or not.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

its a well known fact that the british legal system is full of neo nazis.Is this another "if we don't get our way your Nazis" thread. Living in what is essentially a Christian Monarchy and you must expect to go a little way along the path with the host, saying that the UK is becoming a pretty secular place so just go a long and we will all get along.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Well, I'm eager to see them apply the same 'racist' label to Islam when the opportunity arises, as it inevitably will.They shut an Islamic school down in Scotland because did not strictly adhere to the rules and one Jewish primary is skating on thin ice due to admissions disputes.

[WKD]

Well, I'm eager to see them apply the same 'racist' label to Islam when the opportunity arises, as it inevitably will.

But my problem with it is that the court is saying a religion can't define it's own membership criteria. .

No, what the court is saying is that you must obey the laws of Britain if you want to live there.




I certainly have heard and read that a child of a Muslim father IS a Muslim, whether he or she knows it or likes it or not.

Only according to Muslims.

[AZZenny]

Only according to Muslims.

Yes, that was my point. It has nothing to do with race or ethnicity. It's a religious self-definition.

[WKD]

Yes, that was my point. It has nothing to do with race or ethnicity. It's a religious self-definition.

And you missed my point. Legally it would be irrelevent.

[kahn267]

ahhh shutup
you guys dont let us into your golf and lifestyle clubs
let us have our jewish schools lol

[wagon]

I'm sad to see that some courts are run by left wing anti-semites,

IMO "palestinians" are nothing more than illegal immigrants.
Says you.

its a well known fact that the british legal system is full of neo nazis.
Do you have evidence to prove this?

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I'm sad to see that some courts are run by left wing anti-semites,



its a well known fact that the british legal system is full of neo nazis.
IDF-Soldier82 has went full retard in his first 5 posts. So the judiciary in the UK are a heady mix of Neo-Nazis and left-wing anti-semites, there is so much I can learn from you. Tell us more.

[RoyB]

its a well known fact that the british legal system is full of neo nazis.
wtf!?
Ban this guy, he makes us MP.NET Jews look bad.

[RoyB]

I still find it perplexing that tax-payers are forced to fund schools like this.
Most of those schools are being funded by donors from all over.

Judaism is not a religion looking to 'distribute' itself, it never was. contrary to Christianity and Islam.

[LordKitchener]

Correct. It is not a racial issue.

How is it not a racial issue? If I, as a European Christian decided to convert to Judaism, they would not accept me as a real Jew or admit me into their school because of my ethnicity.

It is COMPLETELY a racial issue.



Judaism is not a religion looking to 'distribute' itself, it never was. contrary to Christianity and Islam.

That's because Judaism is only interested in promoting itself through ethnic Jews and not by converting other races to practice it contrary to the other two religions.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

wtf!?
Ban this guy, he makes us MP.NET Jews look bad.He makes us all look bad. Is he some sort of extreme Zionist redneck? :)

[Toolhead]

OP should read the book "culture of critique."

[a_very_ex_STAB]

This is strange, if the boy's father is a Jew and the boy follows Jewish customs then why should it be an issue? Anyways this is coming from a country who banned Jews from living there.


Way to go!:roll:

You are talking about the 12th century or something right?

I've read some retarded stuff on mp.net but that's dumbness of an Olympic Gold Medal standard. And after only 16 posts too - the lad's got potential!:)

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I think it is fine to have religious schools, Sunday School, Orthodox/Catholic schools. But regular secular schools that admit Jews only is discrimination.

I went to a Catholic school in the UK but IIRC we had Protestants, Jews, Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs there. I don't think any group should be able to claim some kind of special status if it is state funded in the UK (which the school in question is).

[LRPV]

its a well known fact that the british legal system is full of neo nazis.

How about easing up on the posting? Your posts are counter-productive. This post alone could earn you a holiday. Read the posts of members like Tanks-a-lot and relax a bit.

[LRPV]

How is it not a racial issue? If I, as a European Christian decided to convert to Judaism, they would not accept me as a real Jew or admit me into their school because of my ethnicity.

It is COMPLETELY a racial issue.




You prove my case, thankyou. If you convert to Judaism you change your relgion not your race. A small point to remember p-)

[LRPV]

I don't think any group should be able to claim some kind of special status if it is state funded in the UK (which the school in question is).

I agree with your sentiment, however as this is my industry I understand where the politics complicate matters. Where I live the Government has a Department that endorses Government and Independant schools. Non-Government schools are almost entirely of a religious nature, though the extent of religious worship varies.

To gain endorsement a school must commit to the Government curriculum framework. In doing this independant schools relieve Government of a significant financial burden. To encourage the private sector development and to further encourage adherence to Government policy, each child in an independant school attracts a subsidy. Very significant for the school budget and the Governments bottom line.

[PUG]

its a well known fact that the british legal system is full of neo nazis.

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/3273/keyboardcat.png (http://img517.imageshack.us/i/keyboardcat.png/)

[Holycrusader]

THX for laugh p_unit...

Cool pic and I know the melody that cat play...

[RoyB]

He makes us all look bad. Is he some sort of extreme Zionist redneck? :)
He's an idiot, that's all.
But this 'Zionist' thing got out of hand. a Zionist is simply an Israeli patriot, not the religious nutjobs trying to fulfill the idea of a 'Greater Israel'.
it became some kind of a slur word, rather than what it really is.
I am a Zionist, but that doesn't mean that I want to go out there and start burning 'Palestinians' fields.

[RoyB]

That's because Judaism is only interested in promoting itself through ethnic Jews and not by converting other races to practice it contrary to the other two religions.
Isn't that what I've said?
Oh no, Jews doesn't force/encourage people to convert to Judaism! what a racist religion.
Judaism is a 'closed' religion.. over the years different approaches were taken, but all in all, it doesn't try to recruit people.

[GiladS]

How is it not a racial issue? If I, as a European Christian decided to convert to Judaism, they would not accept me as a real Jew or admit me into their school because of my ethnicity.

It is COMPLETELY a racial issue.


How the heck did you reach that conclusion?

The schools follow Orthodox Jewish standards, if you are a convert of the Orthadox conversion process then you are recognized as a Jew regardless of your ethnic origin.

The article states cases in which the mothers of applicants weren't Jewish at all or didn't go through a Orthadox conversion process.

This has nothing to do with race but rather with the standards of Orthadox Jewish law and the difference of opinion between the different branches of Judiasm.



That's because Judaism is only interested in promoting itself through ethnic Jews and not by converting other races to practice it contrary to the other two religions.


This statement really exemplifies your ignorance.

Judiasm as a whole doesn't object to the idea of people from other nations joining the the Jewish nation/religion... if this wasn't the case then why is there a conversion process in the first place?

The Orthadox conversion process isn't an easy one and includes a lot of study and devotion from the person who goes through the process. This way the person understands to the full extent the religion he is adopting and insures he or she trully wish to bind their destiny with that of the Jewish people.



P.S

My mother was born to a Methodist Christian family in the UK and went through the Orthadox conversion process at age 25.

[Hialeah]

Way to go!:roll:

You are talking about the 12th century or something right?

I've read some retarded stuff on mp.net but that's dumbness of an Olympic Gold Medal standard. And after only 16 posts too - the lad's got potential!:)

Way to take the piss out of a joke.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Way to take the piss out of a joke.

Well I did say you had potential!

[Hialeah]

Well I did say you had potential!

Should I not still have potential, or did I lose it?

[LEGEND]

The mother only rule sometimes seems idiotic. You can have 3 grandparents jews and if your grandmother on mothers side is not jewish then you are not... Or you could have only one grandmother on mothers side as a jew in the family and not know anything about judaism and still be considered a full blown "orthodox" jew... I know people who are half/half and grew up in Israel fought in the army but still are not considered jewish...

[AZZenny]

How is it not a racial issue? If I, as a European Christian decided to convert to Judaism, they would not accept me as a real Jew or admit me into their school because of my ethnicity.



And there's a taste of the ignorance I referred to -- ANYONE can convert to Judaism, but it requires going through teaching with a Rabbi and approval (much as Catholicism and other religions require).

IF you convert under Orthodox rules, you are an Orthodox Jew, regardless of your prior religious or genetic/ethnic background. Now that said, within Judaism there are strong disagreements about what types of conversions 'count' and the point is proved in the story -- it's not the mother's ethnic or racial background -- it is that her conversion is not Halacha -- 'religiously pure' enough for the denomination that runs the school.

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/5107/img2148.jpg


http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35423&d=1193041247

[Fat Lazy American]

How is it not a racial issue? If I, as a European Christian decided to convert to Judaism, they would not accept me as a real Jew or admit me into their school because of my ethnicity.

It is COMPLETELY a racial issue.


You are dead wrong. They would allow you into their school if they recognized the conversion. You'd just have to go through a conversion process that's up to snuff with the school's halachic interpretations. If a given Protestant church requires adult Baptism by full immersion for full membership, is it being "racially discriminatory" if it doesn't allow Catholics to join without going through adult Baptism?

And, uh:

Ordie:


Jewish lineage is traditionally passed through the mother. It's based on the premise that one may have many fathers, but always a single mother.I think you meant "one may have one of many fathers". Only Ahnold in "Twins"* has many fathers. ;-)

But yes, if I had a kid with my current (not Jewish) girlfriend, I'd need an Orthodox conversion for my kids for their Jewishness to be recognized by all branches of Judaism.

If my sister had a kid with her current (equally Midwestern and equally Methodist-raised) husband, her kids are automatically and uncontroversially Jews according to all Jewish law.

This is how it works. It's not racist. It's religious law. Kinda sucks, but there you have it.

I'd be interesting to see how they would deal with Druze. THEY have a closed book, no conversion. I guess you can make a better argument for this being racially discriminatory.

Additionally, there is a reason why the State of Israel for immigration purposes has a broader definition of what a "Jew" is. Sure, it encourages more immigration. But far more importantly, Hitler had a very broad definition of what a "Jew" was. Israel doesn't serve its moral purpose as a haven for Jews if it has a narrow religious definition. It has to accept all those who are oppressed as Jews, not just those who are Jews by the strictest religious definition.

*To join MY religion, you have to have seen all Ahnold works. Yes, even "Jingle All the Way". Don't even try to get into my school if you've just seen "Terminator" and "Commando".

[Kaplanr]

I think most everyone here has missed the court's point, which I'm not sure how i feel about (the decision, not that most of us missed it.)

On the one hand they are taking on Jewish law - invalidating the "born of a Jewish mother", etc... and saying that establishing Jewish identity by virtue of bloodline (for the purposes of admission to a tax supported school) is discriminatory; but that denying admission because the "practice" of Judaism or level of religious observance is a legitimate factor. So to attend the school, you could be an indifferent C of E member, a lapsed RC, but you do need to be a practicing or observant Jew, regardless of bloodline. I happen to like that.

As an American, the whole notion of public dollars to a religious school is anathema to me and my daughter goes to a Jewish Day School. I like that seperation clause; and our closest friend's kids go to Sacred Heart.

[Palmach]

but you do need to be a practicing or observant Jew, regardless of bloodline. I happen to like that.

The problem is that a "practicing or observant Jew" who is born gentile and has not undergone a conversion is an impossibility. Vast majority of mitzvot are for Jews only. Thus a person who accepts the divine nature of Torah and Halacha consequently must accept that one born a gentile can not perform most functions of a "practicing or observant Jew" without undergoing a conversion process. On the other hand, a person rejecting a major portion of the Halacha can not possibly be considered a "practicing or observant Jew".

The court is just overriding Jewish religious law in that case - which is a slippery slope. Next they will go after kosher butchering and brit mila.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

The court is just overriding Jewish religious law in that case - which is a slippery slope. Next they will go after kosher butchering and brit mila.Why is this a slippery slope will the judiciary of the UK be struck down from above? I believe kosher and halal butchering to be not unreasonable practices but there are many in UK and elsewhere that believe otherwise and they have lots of funding.

[Palmach]

Why is this a slippery slope will the judiciary of the UK be struck down from above? I believe kosher and halal butchering to be not unreasonable practices but there are many in UK and elsewhere that believe otherwise and they have lots of funding.

Any governmental interference into the religious matters is a slippery slope. A balance between "non-descrimination" and denial of religious freedoms is difficult enough to maintain. In this particular context, I admire the american approach - public school are entirely devoid of religion, parocial schools are private and can run their affairs pretty much anyway they like.

[Kaplanr]

The problem is that a "practicing or observant Jew" who is born gentile and has not undergone a conversion is an impossibility. Vast majority of mitzvot are for Jews only. Thus a person who accepts the divine nature of Torah and Halacha consequently must accept that one born a gentile can not perform most functions of a "practicing or observant Jew" without undergoing a conversion process. On the other hand, a person rejecting a major portion of the Halacha can not possibly be considered a "practicing or observant Jew".

The court is just overriding Jewish religious law in that case - which is a slippery slope. Next they will go after kosher butchering and brit mila.

If we take the situation outside Her Majesty's realm, then we have this quasi ridiculous situation of the absolutely non-procticing, un-halachic pork eating eating Jew who's Jewish because his mother halachically is, vs. the sincere, observant Bnei-Moshe or Beta Israel who are deemed symbolically gentile by a politicized rabbinate. That's leaving out the "suspect" Conservative and Reform confusions that the religious establishment rejects, versus the convenience conversions (basketball players and the like) that they facilitate.

[WKD]

The problem is that a "practicing or observant Jew" who is born gentile and has not undergone a conversion is an impossibility. Vast majority of mitzvot are for Jews only. Thus a person who accepts the divine nature of Torah and Halacha consequently must accept that one born a gentile can not perform most functions of a "practicing or observant Jew" without undergoing a conversion process. On the other hand, a person rejecting a major portion of the Halacha can not possibly be considered a "practicing or observant Jew".

The court is just overriding Jewish religious law in that case - which is a slippery slope. Next they will go after kosher butchering and brit mila.


Couple of points.

1) It is not the fact that the child is orthodox or not that is the problem. The fact that they can only enter if their bloodline (ie mother) is orthodox that is the problem under British law, because that makes it ethnic discrimination, under British law. I keep saying this British law thing because there seem to be jewish members in this forum that forget that the Law is the Law and it has supremacy, irrespective of your particular Sky-Father.

2) The fact that you find the court's overriding jewish religious law to be a slippery slope boggles my mind. Slippery slope to what exactly? Are you telling me that religious law has supremacy over British law? Are you trying to tell me that jewish religious law should instead have primacy over British courts? That the Rabbis outrank the judges, and by default therefore parliament? That Jews should have special legal rights in Britain simply because they are Jews?

It does not, and has never, worked that way. Even the established religion of the English part of the United Kingdom has always been subject to the secular power. That's one of the reasons it was established in the first place.

[Kaplanr]

Couple of points. . .

No need to get so hot about it. There are quite a few of us who are not English, and find this a new (in our experience) and interesting phenomena. This wouldn't happen in the states and believe it or not, in Israel. In the US the barriers between religious schools - even though they teach 80 or 90% secular curriculum - and tax dollars is well known, and in Israel all schools are state supported, and the different religious authorities Jewish, Muslim, Christian and Druze are in almost complete control of their social/religious circumstances; a status quo that the Israel adopted from the Mandatory power who pretty much adopted it from the ruling Ottomans.

Were the school to be entirely self supported (not tied to public funds) would this suit have made its way to trial?

[Palmach]

If we take the situation outside Her Majesty's realm, then we have this quasi ridiculous situation of the absolutely non-procticing, un-halachic pork eating eating Jew who's Jewish because his mother halachically is, vs. the sincere, observant Bnei-Moshe or Beta Israel who are deemed symbolically gentile by a politicized rabbinate. That's leaving out the "suspect" Conservative and Reform confusions that the religious establishment rejects, versus the convenience conversions (basketball players and the like) that they facilitate.

This is not "a situation" - it's Halacha. Jewish principles of faith as defined by Rambam include the immutability of G-d's law given to the nation of Israel on Mount Sinai. Thus a person who considers himself a religious Jew must accept the Halachic authority on religious issues, including defining who is a Jew. Otherwise, you are simply not following Talmudic Judaism (btw, thats what makes Reform and C. suspect). Now, the law is quite clear - Jewishness has nothing to do with one's level of observance - a person born to a Jewish mother or one having gone through a real conversion is a Jew (depending on your openness to Kabbala and hasidus the concept of Jewsish soul can be applied). The proof is that even a Jew who converts to another religion remains a Jew, therefore keeping mitzvot is not a requirement.

Now, politically motivated conversions are clearly bad. But Judiasm is dealing with a concept of national state - smthg we didn't quite plan for (everything was supposed to be taken care of by the Meshiah). Clearly there will be mistakes. That is no reason to dump the principles that guided the people for thousends of years.

[Palmach]

Couple of points.

1) It is not the fact that the child is orthodox or not that is the problem. The fact that they can only enter if their bloodline (ie mother) is orthodox that is the problem under British law, because that makes it ethnic discrimination, under British law. I keep saying this British law thing because there seem to be jewish members in this forum that forget that the Law is the Law and it has supremacy, irrespective of your particular Sky-Father.

2) The fact that you find the court's overriding jewish religious law to be a slippery slope boggles my mind. Slippery slope to what exactly? Are you telling me that religious law has supremacy over British law? Are you trying to tell me that jewish religious law should instead have primacy over British courts? That the Rabbis outrank the judges, and by default therefore parliament? That Jews should have special legal rights in Britain simply because they are Jews?

It does not, and has never, worked that way. Even the established religion of the English part of the United Kingdom has always been subject to the secular power. That's one of the reasons it was established in the first place.


1. Nonsence. The mother has to be jewish according to the orthodox concept of jewishness. That means that she has too be born jewish or she must have gone through an ORTHODOX conversion. There is nothing ethnic or racial about it - she can be half-eskimo half-Aussi aboriginal. Now, it can be argued that a public school should not exclude students based on religion and that's fine with me. If a Cathlic boy wants to go to Jewish school - let him go. But IF a school is allowed to accept students based on religion (ie only cathlics or only anglican, or only muslim) then the decision of WHO is a cathlic/anglican/muslim/a jew must be left to the religious authorities. No-one quiestions the authority of the British Law, the problem is that it is being applied ass-backwords.

2. What I am saying is that enternal jewish matters of religion must be settled without state interference. A British Law can totally sya that a public school can not exclude people based on religion. What is shouldn't do is pass judgement on how judaism defines a jew. That is a religious matter and curtailing it is a violation of religious freedoms.

[Hialeah]

No need to get so hot about it. There are quite a few of us who are not English, and find this a new (in our experience) and interesting phenomena. This wouldn't happen in the states and believe it or not, in Israel. In the US the barriers between religious schools - even though they teach 80 or 90% secular curriculum - and tax dollars is well known, and in Israel all schools are state supported, and the different religious authorities Jewish, Muslim, Christian and Druze are in almost complete control of their social/religious circumstances; a status quo that the Israel adopted from the Mandatory power who pretty much adopted it from the ruling Ottomans.

Were the school to be entirely self supported (not tied to public funds) would this suit have made its way to trial?

Honestly, I think yes. The UK courts treat discrimination very seriously even if the case is flimsy. By simply labeling things a racial issue the courts can just skirt around having to gain any understanding of cultural/religious issues in a case. Point of how ridiculous it is New Age Travellers are now an ethnic minority in the UK.

[WKD]

1. Nonsence. The mother has to be jewish according to the orthodox concept of jewishness. That means that she has too be born jewish or she must have gone through an ORTHODOX conversion. There is nothing ethnic or racial about it - she can be half-eskimo half-Aussi aboriginal. Now, it can be argued that a public school should not exclude students based on religion and that's fine with me. If a Cathlic boy wants to go to Jewish school - let him go. But IF a school is allowed to accept students based on religion (ie only cathlics or only anglican, or only muslim) then the decision of WHO is a cathlic/anglican/muslim/a jew must be left to the religious authorities. No-one quiestions the authority of the British Law, the problem is that it is being applied ass-backwords.

2. What I am saying is that enternal jewish matters of religion must be settled without state interference. A British Law can totally sya that a public school can not exclude people based on religion. What is shouldn't do is pass judgement on how judaism defines a jew. That is a religious matter and curtailing it is a violation of religious freedoms.

1) Not according to British law, which is the only law that matters in Britain. Because the mother must be an orthodox jew it contravenes legislation. If the orthodox notion of jewishness contravenes the Law than too bad for the orthodox notion of jewishness.

2) See 1). Your notion that because the Jews are Jews that they are exempt from the Law and must be left to do whatever the hell they want is startling and incredibly arrogant.


Honestly, I think yes. The UK courts treat discrimination very seriously even if the case is flimsy. By simply labeling things a racial issue the courts can just skirt around having to gain any understanding of cultural/religious issues in a case. Point of how ridiculous it is New Age Travellers are now an ethnic minority in the UK.

The Law doesn't need a cultural or religious understanding. The culture or religion needs an understanding of the Law. The UK is a country of laws and these don't change just because it doesn't mesh with some minority's lifestyle.

Look I am not trying to be deliberately offensive here. Secular authority >> religious doctrine. The way that 'Jewishness' is being defined here has come into conflict with the British legal definition of an ethnic group and ethnic descrimination. The law wins. That's just the way it is, irrespective of religious beliefs.

[AZZenny]

The way that 'Jewishness' is being defined here has come into conflict with the British legal definition of an ethnic group and ethnic descrimination.


It's not 'being defined here' that way -- it's how Jewishness has been defined by Jews for thousands of years. (Israelis -- did the Ethiopian Jews follow matrilineal descent?)

Perhaps it would help if you provided the British legal definition of an ethnic group. I simply can't get my head around the idea that if a Tibetan Buddhist woman moved from Daramsala to Israel, underwent Orthodox conversion, then moved to the UK and had a child, her Judaism is 'ethnic.'