German Navy

[Seiyuuki]

I was just looking through my old Popular Mechanics when this pop-up. Granted it is an old article, and most of you have probably seen it, but during the time of political animosity between our two nations, it show that beyond the politics, something better exist.


http://popularmechanics.com/science/military/2001/12/our_german_allies/[/url]]Editor's Note: The following letter was sent from a U.S. Navy sailor to his father, Gunter Georgi, via the Internet. Georgi is president of a German travel group called the Wandervereins von New York and New Jersey. So he sent the letter to the New Yorker Staats-Zeitung, which published it in its Nov. 10-Nov. 16, 2001 issue. The words and image are so moving that we asked for permission to republish the piece here on the PM.Zone for the world to see.

Dear Dad,

We are still at sea. The remainder of our port visits have all been canceled. We have spent every day since the attacks going back and forth within imaginary boxes drawn in the ocean, standing high-security watches, and trying to make the best of it. We have seen the articles and the photographs, and they are sickening. Being isolated, I don't think we appreciate the full scope of what is happening back home, but we are definitely feeling the effects.

About two hours ago, we were hailed by a German Navy destroyer, Lutjens, requesting permission to pass close by our port side. Strange, since we're in the middle of an empty ocean, but the captain acquiesced and we prepared to render them honors from our bridgewing. As they were making their approach, our conning officer used binoculars and announced that Lutjens was flying not the German flag, but the American flag.

As she came alongside us, we saw the American flag flying half-mast and her entire crew topside standing at silent, rigid attention in their dress uniforms. They had made a sign that was displayed on her side that read, "We Stand By You."

There was not a dry eye on the bridge as they stayed alongside us for a few minutes and saluted. It was the most powerful thing I have seen in my life. The German Navy did an incredible thing for this crew, and this has truly been the highest point in the days since the attacks.

It's amazing to think that only a half-century ago things were quite different. After Lutjens pulled away, the Officer of the Deck, who had been planning to get out later this year, turned to me and said, "I'm staying Navy."

I'll write you when I know more about when I'll be home, but this is it for now. Love you guys.

[ScoutRanger]

Yet another amazing story of the Germans (military that is) showing their respect for America and her fighting forces.

[ESCOBAR]

I have really curious question.......how do German teachers teach there students about WWI and WWII?

Do they teach about that they lost.......and what the NAZI's did etc.

[Seiyuuki]

I know the German Navy, as well as all other Navy, have a very long noble tradition.

I can recalled a picture I saw where a German's Admiral, at a funeral of a ship's captain (I believe it was the captain of the German's ship, which I can't remember the name, that was sunk near South America), anyway, the Admiral gave the proper naval salute instead of the Nazi salute even though he's standing right next to a politician of some sort, who as the picture clearly show, was very displease with the Admiral for not saluting the Nazi way.

[Andyman]

Now that is something special. It must have been such an overwhelming sight to see. Germany continues to impress me even to this day p-)

[Shadow]

I have really curious question.......how do German teachers teach there students about WWI and WWII?

Do they teach about that they lost.......and what the NAZI's did etc.

They teach us how this could happen and what they did.

[Smintjes]

I was in Germany a few months ago, and was talking to some Germans about this. Most of them still feel genuinely ashamed about what their country did 50 years ago.

[cut]

Similarly to how american students are taught about vietnam.

Germans have nothing to feel ashamed of. most countries in europe have fought each other. Militarily the german advance was hugely impressive in both world wars. IMO they just got over-ambicious and over-streched.
As for nazism, well that could happen to any country and every country has it's atrocities.

[Andy]

I was in Germany a few months ago, and was talking to some Germans about this. Most of them still feel genuinely ashamed about what their country did 50 years ago.

I as a German soldier, am always still ashamedly which before 50 years happened. But I believe, in it have still different countries debt. E.g. in great Britanien each day many War films run over WW2. German helping out teachers will with the Nazi greeting received etc..

Andy

[He219]

I remember getting this in an e-mail shortly after 9-11. Here is the official US Navy picture:

http://www.atlanticfleet.navy.mil/church-lutjens.jpg
German Navy Warship Salutes USS Winston S. Churchill

At sea aboard USS Winston S. Churchill (DDG 81), Sept. 14, 2001 - The officers and crew of the German destroyer GFS Lutjens (D-185), say goodbye and render honors to USS Winston S. Churchill (DDG 81) by lining the rails in their Dress Blues as they came alongside the ship at sea. The German Sailors, who had become good friends with many of the crew on board Churchill, were flying an American flag at half mast and had hung a homemade banner that read, "We Stand By You." The ships had been conducting joint exercises off the coast of the United Kingdom prior to the terrorist attack on the United States on Sepbember 11th. Official U.S. Navy photo by LT Mike Elliot.

cut:
Please tell us your condensed impression of how Vietnam should be taught in US schools. I'm curious...

Germans have nothing to feel ashamed of.....that could happen to any country...


I could'nt disagree more. Tactical and Scientific Genius is totally unarguable throughout Germany's unified history since 1871, but it's the ramifications of pervasive narcissism that induces a cultural chauvinism and sectarianism amplified in an atmosphere of social conformity.

Just my thoughts...

[budanski]

Germans have nothing to feel ashamed of.

So killing 6 million jews is nothing to be ashmed of?

[Andy]

@budanski

What is with the milion People who died in Vietnam, Korea, Gulf War 1+2, in Grenada, in Afghanistan, in Nawasakie with two WMD?

I would like to good-talk here nothing, but we are not alone.
We had learned from two WW. We help people al over the world! We are good people.

Andy

[ScoutRanger]

Germans have nothing to feel ashamed of.

So killing 6 million jews is nothing to be ashmed of?


You are going to blame every German for that? You could blame germans for putting the Nazi party into power but you surely cant put the weight of their actions on every German.

By the way the Jews weren’t killed, they were murdered.

[Cpl Stumps]

I don't want to openly offend any members on this site from Japan. But if your going to slam Germans who from the comments I've seen in this post feel regret and remorse for the atrocities they committed. Should'nt we bring up some of the horrific atrocities commited by Imperial Japan. From what I've read and heard the Japanese still won't accept blame or at least issue apologies for the Rape of Nanking, the Comfort Houses in Korea, the Special units in Manchuria that tested WMDs on humans as well as other experiments that they did on living humans. In Los Angeles is the Simon Wiesenthal (sp?) Holocaust Mueseum and from what I've heard as part of their military service German Soldier can go there for a year and work. Isn't that proof of confronting your past, teaching your present so that it won't happen again in the future.

[He219]

Try to understand this:

Tactical and Scientific Genius is totally unarguable throughout Germany's unified history since 1871, but it's the ramifications of pervasive narcissism that induces a cultural chauvinism and sectarianism amplified in an atmosphere of social conformity.

[seventy6er]

I have really curious question.......how do German teachers teach there students about WWI and WWII?

Do they teach about that they lost.......and what the NAZI's did etc.

of course german teachers teach about the crimes the wehrmacht and the nazis comitted. in germany, it's even a crime to deny the holocaust and the crimes of the nazis. if one denies the holocaust, he will be sentenced.

for example, if a teacher would stand in front of a class and would praise the nazi-regime or deny the holocaust he will be fired and sentenced. we got freedom of speech here, of course. but not concerning our past.

[ESCOBAR]

6 million Jews did not die through bombings, accidents etc. They were killed on purpose that was Hitlers purpose his FINAL SOLUTION, you cant compare American civilian casaulty with an act such as EXTERMINATION to the JEWS.

CPL STUMPS, we can talk about testings with chemicals to people for every country even the UNITED STATES.


By the way the Jews weren’t killed, they were murdered.

Um if they were murdered they were killed. The death of the JEWS was not Man Slaughter, the NAZI's had the intent to kill them.

Andy 6 million JEWS that were kidnapped from there place and put into concentration camps to die. People in vietnam, Korea and both Gulf Wars werent brutaly murdered by Coalition forces, we didnt take them to CAMPS ard gas them, test on them.

[hood]

Here's an article I saw today. It can be argued that the US did things that brought on enemies like Al Qaeda and incited them to commit terrorist acts, but I can't see the reasoning that the US specifically carried out the 9/11 attacks, and that it wasn't terrorists. Don't you think by now something would have come out about it? Iran, who's government really doesn't like us, said that they have various Al Qaeda personell. Don't you think they'd have said something if the Al Qaeda guys told them that the US put them up to it?


BERLIN, Germany (*******) -- One-third of Germans under age 30 believe the U.S. government may have sponsored the September 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington, according to a poll.

And about 20 percent of Germans in all age groups hold this view, according to a survey of 1,000 people conducted for the weekly Die Zeit.

The poll also said 68 percent of all Germans felt the media had not reported the full truth behind the attacks, in which some 3,000 people were killed when hijacked planes were crashed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

After the September 11 attacks, there was an outpouring of sympathy from Germans for the United States. Despite misgivings, Germany joined a military campaign against the al Qaeda network that Washington blamed for the attacks.

But as the United States geared up for war against Iraq, relations soured as Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder expressed vocal opposition to the plans.

Although the United States took offense at Berlin's attitude, Schroeder's anti-war stance was popular in Germany and helped him to snatch victory in last September's elections.

Asked whether they believed the U.S. government could have ordered the September 11 attacks, 31 percent of those surveyed under the age of 30 answered "yes,'' while 19 percent overall gave the same answer.

Die Zeit said widespread disbelief about the reasons given by the United States for going to war in Iraq and suspicion about media coverage of the conflict had fostered a climate in which conspiracy theories flourished.

"The news is controlled,'' 17-year-old Kenny Donaubaur was quoted as saying. "You could see that in the Iraq war. It doesn't seem to me that you get the full truth.''

[Andy]

I will not say ''That was ok'' no no, but america and other lands had al lot of Marks on his Wests! You have right. The Nazis was murder. But not all people who was in germany lived were Nazis. Is it so, how in this moment in america. hundreds of people stay in Guantanamobay ( i hope its right! ) and the american People say '' thats right'' they are us dislikes! and so was it in germany 60 years ago.

Andy

[ScoutRanger]

Wow, how did the topic turn into this. We take a noble action and fill it with side comments domoralizing one another. ESCOBAR had a question and it was answered, enough already?

[Kitsune]

Of course we will probably never know the "whole truth" about the 9/11 incident (but to say: "I know the WHOLE truth about it" would be a quite a statement...). And of course the media are manipulated by the US government...in fact everyone does so or at least tries to. And since the US governement is more powerful then most it can manipulate more than most. Also no great illuminating thought here.

But that the US had somehow staged the incident seems quite far fetched to me. If the Iraq war and its aftermath has shown something than that the US governement/military/intelligence are not all-powerful.

That so many Germans would believe this is not consistent with my personal experiences....none of my friends beleives that 9/11 was staged.

I would be interested what similar polls made in the US and Britain would say...

[ESCOBAR]

Andy I know not all Germans at the time were not NAZI's.

[Shadow]

Germans have nothing to feel ashamed of.

So killing 6 million jews is nothing to be ashmed of?

I don't want to know how many people the USA have killd.

http://www.3dsupply.de/service/shirtmotive/world-domination-tour.gif

And don't forget the innocent german people who who were killed during the american bombardments.

[Seiyuuki]

If the media are control by the U.S. government and that 9/11 was somehow staged...then a logical question need to be ask...How come what we hear about Iraq from the media are not as peachy as a walk on the beach? The tone and general concensus from the media is that Iraq is a quagmire. If the U.S. government can "staged" 9/11, surely they can "staged" a successful campaign in Iraq and that the country is thriving like the United Arab Emirates by now.

[USAF G]

That's an interesting World Domination Technique the US is employing. I guess they missed the day of World Domination class where the Prof. talked about retaining control and occupying all of your conquests. :roll: What a load of crap. I'm not buying that the US is trying to take over the world.

[hood]

yeah, "trying" makes it sound like it hasn't been accomplished yet. rofl

[USAF G]

Shhhh, Hood. Not everyone is clued in to the fact that we actually run everything. ;)

[XASA]

I guess my three years in Berlin during the height of the Cold War acting as a shield to protect Germany was part of that domination tour, too. A simple "thank you America" would be nice ;)

[Seiyuuki]

yeah, "trying" makes it sound like it hasn't been accomplished yet. rofl


Shhhh, Hood. Not everyone is clued in to the fact that we actually run everything. ;)


rofl rofl rofl rofl We control everything!!! even the Media!!! p-) p-)

[ScoutRanger]

ROFL!!!

[ibstolidude]

oops sorry not enough tin foil wrapped around my head to pacticipate here...the conspiracy rays will get through and I'll be hooking up the davidians and halsbot gang as we drink the Jim Jones flavored cool-aid and wait for the return of Lord voldemont (sp?)

[budanski]

oops sorry not enough tin foil wrapped around my head to pacticipate here...the conspiracy rays will get through and I'll be hooking up the davidians and halsbot gang as we drink the Jim Jones flavored cool-aid and wait for the return of Lord voldemont (sp?)

I tried passing off this technology (http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html) to Mortimer, but it didnt seem to help. You may have better luck with it.



I don't want to know how many people the USA have killd.


And don't forget the innocent german people who who were killed during the american bombardments.

We Don't Either...

A BRIEF HISTORY OF GERMANY

1871 - Bismark founds modern Germany.

1890 - Bismark sacked, warmonger Wilhelm II takes direct control.

1914 - Germany starts World War I

1914-1918 - Germany kills millions upon millions of people.

1917 - Germany force Americans to enter war.

1918 - Germany loses World War I.

1920's - Germans try democracy.

1933 - Germans reject democracy, allow Hitler to take power.

1939 - Germany starts World War II.

1939-1945 - Germany kills millions upon millions of people.

1941 - Germany force Americans to enter war.

1945 - Germany loses World War II.

1946 - Germans whine about lack of food, America gives billions in food aid to feed them.

1947 - Germans whine about crappy economy, America gives billions in Marshall Plan aid to rebuild German economy.

1948-1949 - America puts ass on line and risks WW3 to save a few Berliners from Soviet hordes.

1949 - Federal Republic of Germany (West Germany) established.

1950's - America spends billions to defend West Germany from Soviet hordes.

1950's - German 'economic miracle' occurs while America keeps watch on Soviet hordes.

1955 - NATO formed to protect West Germany from Soviet hordes.

1960's - America spends billions to defend West Germany from Soviet hordes.

1960's - German students protest war in Vietnam and American civil rights.

1963 - American President John Kennedy makes "Ich bin ein Berliner" speech.

1970's - America spends billions to defend West Germany from Soviet hordes.

1970's - Germans form the Marxist terrorist group Red Army Faction (RAF).

1970's - Leftist German guerrillas burn, loot, and plunder much of West Germany.

1980's - America spends tens of billions to defend West Germany from Soviet hordes.

1980's - German leftists bitch about Pershing II missiles.

1987 - American President Ronald Reagan makes "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall" speech.

1989 - Gorbachev tears down Berlin Wall.

1990 - German Reunification.

1990's - America spends tens of billions to defend Germany from Islamic hordes.

1990's - Germany stands by as ethnic cleansing occurs in Balkans.

1993 - Germany joins European Union.

1995 - Americans send troops to Bosnia as Germans watch from the sidelines.

1997 - Germans finally send troops to Bosnia.

1998 - Hardline, left-of-left socialists come to power under Gerhard Schroeder.

1999 - Americans lead air war to save Kosovo as Germans watch from the sidelines.

2001 - Schroeder offers solidarity to America after 9/11 attacks.

2002 - Schroeder bashes America to distract voters during election campaign.

2003 - Germany sees rise in anti-Americanism after several decades of poor treatment from America.

[seventy6er]

mr. budanski is full of b***-s*i* :roll:

[Andy]

2003 - Germany sees rise in anti-Americanism after several decades of poor treatment from America

ohh ja sorry :cantbeli: we have Soldiers to die :cantbeli:
I say it again. We are happy that america and other lands us ( german People ) release. But when america or an other land a War beginn, that not a UN-resulution had than i say ''not with us''



1995 - Americans send troops to Bosnia as Germans watch from the sidelines.


+

1999 - Americans lead air war to save Kosovo as Germans watch from the sidelines.


Bullshid! We have many thousend of Soldiers in this two lands!

Where do you get that list from?

Andy

[He219]

This probably belongs into the picture section, but I think it is appropriate to recognize the German Navy and it's contributions....

http://www.deutschemarine.de/80256B4100373886/RepositoryFile/RightFrame/$FILE/marine.gifhttp://www.deutschemarine.de/80256B4100373886/RepositoryFile/Wasserzeichen/$File/banner_enduringfreedom.jpg

Some pictures from Operation Enduring Freedom:

http://www.deutschemarine.de/made/dmbildg.nsf/vwAlle/EFC7491DA5FD97A3C1256D24003E9E86/$File/3674_MarinesicherungssoldatenbeieinerÜbung_280403_PIZMarine_Dörendahlpop.jpg
Marinesicherungssoldaten

http://www.deutschemarine.de/made/dmbildg.nsf/vwAlle/39F9CAA0EAC44809C1256D24003F2673/$File/2299_Breuget%20Atlantic_PIZ%20Marine_Rosowskipop.jpg

http://www.deutschemarine.de/made/dmbildg.nsf/vwAlle/FCABB7B69800F82DC1256D24003EBD50/$File/3611_GruppenfotobeimCimic_Programmpop.jpg
Djibouti Impressions

http://www.deutschemarine.de/made/dmbildg.nsf/vwAlle/6398202559B62F40C1256D24003D09D8/$File/7284_FregatteMecklenburgVorpommern_frontnachvornfahrendpop.jpg
The Frigate MECKLENBURG-VORPOMMERN in support operations

http://www.deutschemarine.de/made/dmbildg.nsf/vwAlle/EA946013823B2C00C1256D24003B89E4/$File/7777_SEALYNXLandaanflug_PIZ%20Marine_Rosowskipop.jpg
A SEA LYNX landing on a Frigate

http://www.deutschemarine.de/made/dmbildg.nsf/vwAlle/67986E9B57E36044C1256D24003B38DC/$File/7797_BoardingÜbungaufeinerFregatte_PIZ%20Marine_Rosowskipop.jpg
Boarding Exercises

http://www.deutschemarine.de/made/dmbildg.nsf/vwAlle/9C8C364CFE2D7AE3C1256D24003AAA8B/$File/9271_TankerRHÖnimHAfenvonDjibouti_PIZMarine_Rosowskipop.jpg
The Tanker Rhön in the Djibouti Harbor

http://www.deutschemarine.de/made/dmbildg.nsf/vwAlle/9B1D00A8428AA719C1256D47003BD8AC/$File/Aufnahme_0114pop.jpg
A view of the Suez Canal in Transit

http://www.deutschemarine.de/made/dmbildg.nsf/vwAlle/8511AE2B9A1DB6A3C1256D240039F6F4/$File/ElbeundFreiburgimHafenvonDjiboutipop.jpg
The Tender ELBE and Supplyship FREIBURG in the Djibouti Harbor


Misc. images...

http://www.deutschemarine.de/80256B100061BA9B/vwContentByKey/N25FGD5J069RRIRDE/$File/2-Hitze-Besatzungkl.jpghttp://www.deutschemarine.de/80256B100061BA9B/vwContentByKey/N25FGD5J069RRIRDE/$File/3-SeaKing-Flugkl.jpg

http://www.deutschemarine.de/80256B100061BA9B/vwcontentByKey/N25K5M9D423MJOEDE/$FILE/dreipop.jpg

http://www.deutschemarine.de/80256B100061BA9B/vwContentByKey/N05C3AFA889RRIRDE/$File/Kampfschwimmer_kl.jpg

http://www.deutschemarine.de/80256B100061BA9B/vwcontentByKey/N255B2C3319MMISDE/$FILE/KampfSchwb.jpg
Kampfschwimmer

http://www.deutschemarine.de/made/dmbildg.nsf/vwAlle/26833AEBF652316CC1256C16002D99FE/$File/xa003.jpg

http://www.deutschemarine.de/made/dmbildg.nsf/vwAlle/1E9F2994E9917293C1256C16002DEBEB/$File/xa007.jpg

http://www.deutschemarine.de/made/dmbildg.nsf/vwAlle/6DCDAE37CFA2FC3CC1256C16003F88B5/$File/xd006.jpg

http://www.deutschemarine.de/made/dmbildg.nsf/vwAlle/7C2703F0412A3757C1256C140030B54C/$File/xt011.jpg


Have a Nice Day!
;)

[ESCOBAR]

ANDY CIVILIANS DIE DURING WAR.......

The US shouldnt have been in Guatemla or Nicaragua but **** happens deal with it. If your so against the US bombing why are you even on a MILITARY FORUM? You should be against all wars.

That picture is retarded clearly the US hasnt bombed CAnada, or Australia.

[USAF G]

" The US hasn't bombed Canada, or Australia." Or has it? My friend you've been duped by the USA controlled media. We've bombed those and a lot more, but there has been a massive coverup campaign in order that the world not know that we have taken over. woot

[Trigger]

Sorry USAF G, but I must correct you. We tried bombing Canada. We sent everything we had in the inventory...but all were shot down by a handful of Avro Arrows. You know, the greatest plane ever built. But like you said it's all been covered up. p-)

Nice Tornados He219
You have the bezzt airplane pics ;)

[He219]

Thanks Trigger!

all were shot down by a handful of Avro Arrows. You know, the greatest plane ever built
rofl

[USAF G]

rofl

[California Joe]

Welcome to "when good threads go bad"

Bottom line, the crew of the German ship showed a great deal of class.



In WW2, (as an allied soldier) it was much preferred to be a prisoner of the Nazi's than the Japanese. 85% better survival rate. The Germans had a very professional officer corps that believed in a long tradition(like the French, British, and US) of a standard of conduct bordering on chivalry when it came to prisoners. Especially officers. Now obviously this was not universal ie. Malmedy etc.

[Kitsune]

@Budanski:

Your views are a bit...biased. I hope you do not plan to become a historian. I do not think the world would be ready for that.

:roll:



@He219:

Some nice pics you got there. woot

[He219]

Thanks, kitsune!

Budanski's post is a copy of a political satire that made it's way around in e-mails back when France and Germany refused to back the United States to remove Saddam in Iraq. Obviously there are a lot of un-truths in it. I believe it was a response to an equally insulting post by Shadow alluding 'brutal' US Global Domination that itself came as a result of a defensive posture with the mere mention of bygone German atrocities.

p-)

[Kitsune]

Alright then if this is only a retributive strike of budanski's. Fair is fair.

p-)

[budanski]

Sorry for the late response all.


mr. budanski is full of b***-s*i*
Indeed. its a satire.


Where do you get that list from?
Strategypage.com under Humor.


Your views are a bit...biased. I hope you do not plan to become a historian. I do not think the world would be ready for that.
Is it that obvious? ;) Note to self: Hogan's Heroes = Fiction

http://www.hogansheroesfanclub.com/images/photoKlink.gif


Just as Shadows intention to have fun with it, I followed suit. p-)

[Trigger]

I know nuttziiing! -Sgt. Schultz :D

[Saranof]

What a load of crap. I'm not buying that the US is trying to take over the world.

It's interesting, that the people who know the least about how the US works are the people who live there.

[USAF G]

:roll: I just don't see the long term evidence of the US' rampant imperialism. Why do we continue to NOT stay in occupation of these countries? Wouldn't that be prudent to proper empire building? And please don't use Iraq as an example, as I am trying to establish a longer term pattern of evil behavior. Also, I'd like a show of hands, regardless of the validity of the US taking Saddam out of power, does anyone here think it would improve the situation in Iraq if we pulled out today? Any takers? ;) G

[Saranof]

:roll: I just don't see the long term evidence of the US' rampant imperialism.

Do you want to see the list of bombed coutrys? Or oppressive states reciving funding from the us? :roll: example: the CIA backed coup in Iran, led to the state witch the country is in now.

[Ratamacue]

Bombing a country or giving funding to a country is not building an empire, genius. Bombing a country and then occupying it and establishing it as a colony is building an empire.

Think with your brain, not your ass.

[Seiyuuki]

What a load of crap. I'm not buying that the US is trying to take over the world.

It's interesting, that the people who know the least about how the US works are the people who live there.

So he doesn't buy into the whole concept of American Imperialism and that make him ignorance of how the US government works?



To demonstrate meaningless political babble from someone in the States...

What is politics? The creation and maintenance of order within a human collectivity (society).
1. What is the ordering principle?
2. What are the sources of public authority and politican power?
3. What is the relationship between the state (government) and other institution in society?
4. What is the relationship among individual citizens and between individuals and the state?
5. What is the nature of government institution and frameworks?
6. How are societies affected by change?
7. Is there a best/true ordering principle?

Dominant Historical Examples
Metaphysical (concerning ultimate reality): Greeks, Socrates/Plato Societal/Political order of the soul which must be in accord with ultimate reality (the good).

Pragmatic Consequences
- Authority resides in those who represent the source of order
- philosophers
- priests
- the church
- There are objective standards of morality (right/wrong)
- There is a common good that should be the focus of the government action
- Legitimacy is tried to divine sanction (divine right of beings).
- Power is bound by divine sanction.
- The structure of government is less important than the substance of government actions. Do they conform to reality (Justice).
- Can support democracy or tyranny.

Dominant Historical Examples
Naturalistic:
- Modern World (14th Century)
- Societal/Political order must be in accord with the material conditions (realities of life).
- The recognition of the need to cooperate for mutual survival & benefits: social contrast theory (Locke).
- Fear (Thomas Hobbes)
- Passions/desires/wants (Locke, Adam Smists, Free Market Capitalism)
- Relations of production (Marxist Theory)
- Biology/Race; Fascism/Nazism
- ****** Drives/Personality/Motivation-Psychology

Pragmatic Consequences
1. Authority must reside in those who represent the source of order
a. the people
b. the leviathan (absolute ruler)
c. power elite (C. Wright Mills)
d. the party
e. the therapist

2. There are no objective standard of morality independent of the need to define standards for practical purposes.
3. Legitimacy is tied to a historically bound beginning.
4. Might makes right (power).
5. The structure of government becomes important as a check on the abuse of power.
6. There really isn't a common goods only individual goods in competition.
7. Can support democracy or tyranny.

John Locke's social contrast theory suggested a representative democracy. Men can congregate to form their own authoritative power and governm themselves. Their property and equality is guarantee under the law and they are protected from the intrusion of others.

Foundation of the Constitution
A. Political Philosophy
1. Locke
2. Montesquieu (spirit of the laws) (The Enlightenment)

B. Knowledge of history
1. Greek city states
2. Roman Republic/Empire
3. Republic of Italy

C. Colonial Experiences
1. Colonial charters
2. Colonial legislators
3. Continental Congress

D. Post-Revolutionary: Articles of Confederation

E. State Constitutions

F. Shay's Rebellion

Why does the US have a representative democracy? Madison oppose direct democracy because men have biased judgements, vote could be cast on fleeting passion and it could potentially lead to tyranny of the majority. The representativs would make his decision based on the true interest of his people and the representatives would also be elected by the people to work for the people.

Sources of American political culture
1. Colonization = need for survival elevates practical intelligence.
2. American Revolution = preoccupation with the maintenance of rights.
3. Protestant Religion = participant culture (congregationalsim)
4. Absence of an official state religion = religious pluralism = political pluralism.
5. Large republic = distribution land; talent and effort more important than lax inheritance laws. Name = low class consciousness = work ethics capitation.
6. Educational opportunity = high degree of social mobility.
7. Child rearing practices = equality and responsibility
8. Expansion of franchise = popular sovereignty.
However equality can lead to tyranny of majority tastes = social pressure to conform.

-See: Madison - tyranny of majority faction in political institution; Tocqueville: "Democracy in America" social tyranny J.S. Mill: "On Liberty" tyranny of taste, manners and culture.

So...I concur with USAF G...What a load of crap. I'm not buying that the US is trying to take over the world.

What else do you want to discuss: the Electoral College? the Executive Branch? the Judicial Branch? the Legislative Branch? Federalist vs. Anti-Federalist? State vs. Federal power? Americans understanding of their government? etc...

[budanski]

Think with your brain, not your ass.

rofl

[Saranof]

What a load of crap. I'm not buying that the US is trying to take over the world.

It's interesting, that the people who know the least about how the US works are the people who live there.


So...I concur with USAF G...What a load of crap. I'm not buying that the US is trying to take over the world.

What else do you want to discuss: the Electoral College? the Executive Branch? the Judicial Branch? the Legislative Branch? Federalist vs. Anti-Federalist? State vs. Federal power? Americans understanding of their government? etc...


Of course you don't, as you are an american! You never do anything wrong, do you?

You know what imperialism is? Well...
The U.S. maintains a military presence in more than 140 countries.
U.S. Department of Defense, Defense Almanac 2000 / penpress.org 020529

The U.S. Department of Defense provides professional military training to more than 100 countries, annually.
U.S. Department of Defense, Defense 96, 1996 / penpress.org 020529

And for some nice things you've done!
In 1973 Pinocet took power in Chile. Supported by the CIA.

Zbigniew Brzezinski, Carters advisor has confessed that Carter the3 july 1979 put 500 million dollars into the creation of a international islamic terrorist movement with the intention to destabilise the Sovjet.

Want more? See Bowling for columbine! Strangley enough, the only people dumb enought to not see it are the americans themselves.
Now I'm not saying all yanks are dumb. The ones I hate are the ones who actually BELIVE that Bush is doing all these things to HELP people, nad that the US never does anything out of line.

[James]

Of course you don't, as you are an american! You never do anything wrong, do you?

You know what imperialism is? Well...
The U.S. maintains a military presence in more than 140 countries.
U.S. Department of Defense, Defense Almanac 2000 / penpress.org 020529

The U.S. Department of Defense provides professional military training to more than 100 countries, annually.
U.S. Department of Defense, Defense 96, 1996 / penpress.org 020529

And for some nice things you've done!
In 1973 Pinocet took power in Chile. Supported by the CIA.

Zbigniew Brzezinski, Carters advisor has confessed that Carter the3 july 1979 put 500 million dollars into the creation of a international islamic terrorist movement with the intention to destabilise the Sovjet.

Want more? See Bowling for columbine! Strangley enough, the only people dumb enought to not see it are the americans themselves.
Now I'm not saying all yanks are dumb. The ones I hate are the ones who actually BELIVE that Bush is doing all these things to HELP people, nad that the US never does anything out of line.

Of those 140 countries, how many did the United States invade? I can only think of Afghanistan and Iraq, unless you want to include the invasion of Germany in 1945. Hell, count Japan too, even though they surrendered by the time our troops arrived. So, 4 nations in 58 years.

Why does it bother you that the United States provides training to 100 foreign countries? Perhaps those nations invited us to join them, but I could be wrong.

And for all that other stuff... We should be careful when reaching back in history to find things to accuse each other of doing. I feel no responsibility for the CIA assisting Pinochet, nor the efforts that we took to assist the Muj during the 1980s. It is so, so easy to be critical when benefitting from 20/20 hindsight.

I hope you didn't watch "Bowling For Columbine" and consider it a documentary. Michael Moore's use of statistics was deeply flawed, and the film does not come close to portraying the ownership of guns in America in an honest light. At best, the film was a bad editorial.

I'm glad you don't think all Americans are dumb. I am far from being a fan of GWB. I am well aware of a number of bad things that the U.S. has done in the past 227 years, but I don't feel responsible, nor do I think I should.

In 1679, Gotland was annexed by Sweden, followed by Blekinge 1680, Halland 1693 and Scania 1721.

Imperialism?

[usa320]

Wow...a good, touching thread hiijacked by the "politicians" again.

[Seiyuuki]

What a load of crap. I'm not buying that the US is trying to take over the world.

It's interesting, that the people who know the least about how the US works are the people who live there.

So he doesn't buy into the whole concept of American Imperialism and that make him ignorance of how the US government works?


Of course you don't, as you are an american! You never do anything wrong, do you?

If you are born an American, If you were already an American, if you become an American...you must automatically accept the fact that the U.S. is imperialistist!!! p-) p-) p-) p-)

[Ratamacue]

The U.S. maintains a military presence in more than 140 countries.

Of those 140 countries, how many do we currently occupy? I can only think of 2, and that is only in the interim until order and strong government can be established. In the rest, we most likely have individual military bases (Ramstein - Germany, Okinawa - Japan, etc.).


The U.S. Department of Defense provides professional military training to more than 100 countries, annually.

Oh, we're just training them to give us some more resistance when we invade them later on. Iraq and Afghanistan were just too easy.

Give me a break. The US has one of the most powerful and well-trained militaries in the world. Training other countries is hardly a negative thing.

What makes you think that Americans are ignorant? How do you know that you Swedes aren't ignorant? How is it that you are able to judge a country that you don't live in better than those that do?

[Seiyuuki]

More useless babble...



Basic Concepts of American Democracy

A. The Foundation of Democracy
1. The fate of American democracy rests on the people's acceptance of certain basic concepts.
2. The acceptance of the basic concepts of democracy presents Americans with problems and challenges.

B. Fundamental Worth of the Individual
1. Democracy insists on the worth and dignity of all.
2. Sometimes the welfare on one person must be subordinated to the interests of the many.

C. Equality of All Persons
1. Democracy insists on equality of opportunity.
2. Democracy insists on equality before the law.

D. Majority Rule and Minority Rights
1. Democracy argues that the majority will be right more often then wrong.
2. Democracy searches for satisfactory solutions to public problems.
3. The majority must recognize the right of the minority to become the majority.

E. Necessity for Compromise
1. Compromise allows citizens to make public decisions.
2. Compromise is not an end in itself but a means to reach a public goal.

F. Individual Freedom
1. Freedom cannot be absolute, or anarchy will result.
2. American democracy strives to strike a balance between liberty and authority.