Best shotgun load for home defense?

[tyovan]

Hey guys,

I don't venture into this part of the forum very frequently. I saw there is a sticky about shotguns, but it has a huge number of pages.

Here's my situation - I have a two story home, with plaster walls. As of the end of September my wife, mother-in-law, and newborn son will be living here too. I have a 12 gauge shotgun I'd like to use for home defense.

However, I'd like some advice about which load to use. I'm not so much concerned with penetration of exterior walls as I am with interior walls. I want to be able to stop the intruder pretty darn quickly, but I don't want the shot to penetrate into other rooms and injure a family member.

What do you guys suggest I go with?

Thanks!

[Hollis]

Probably, is what is called promo loads. They where the special least expensive boxes on sell. Usually 8 1/2 or 9 shot and low charges of power.

At point blank range the blast alone can be/is lethal. The lighter shot and charge will keep the pellets from going too far. This does not guarantee it will not penetrate a wall, because there are other factors. (wall thickness, distance to wall, etc)


Situational awareness is very important in home defense. Knowing where other members in the house are located, putting yourself in a position to take a shot that would be safer.

[Laconian]

I agree with Holl!s. 00 Buck sounds cool, but 9 shot will cover most of your home defense needs unless zombies breach the perimeter. The situational awareness is the key. Having the gun is not nearly as important as having a well-rehearsed plan for how you are going to put it into action.

It's more expensive than a shotgun and ammo, but a barking dog is a great home defense item as well and may give you an edge in reaction time.

[California Joe]

^ Yep. Hopefully it's a pump shotgun so you can rack the slide menacingly and scare them away before you do any harm to your wallpaper...:)

[playtym]

I keep AAA and LG for my shotgun, which translates into #4 buck and a size bigger than 00 Buck, for you Seppos. p-)

[Hollis]

^ Yep. Hopefully it's a pump shotgun so you can rack the slide menacingly and scare them away before you do any harm to your wallpaper...:)


Glad you bought up the wall paper.............. Yeah, the tons of paper work that follows a shooting, best avoided if possible.

[MJC9678]

You can buy bean bag shot and rubber ball shot as well. Mostly non-lethal and will put most anyone on their ass in pain. Something to think about if you live in a state where the criminals have more rights than you do.

[Bro Jangles]

You can buy bean bag shot and rubber ball shot as well. Mostly non-lethal and will put most anyone on their ass in pain. Something to think about if you live in a state where the criminals have more rights than you do.
personally if me and my family is in danger than i dont care about his rights, but luckily i live in a good state.

any recommendations for a light for a home defense shotgun? im to cheap to buy a rail for my 500A

[Migs]

Just be careful with overpentration, dont want to shoot the neighbors too.
I've read 7 1/2 shot is the best shell to use for homedefense, but when the time comes i'll use whatever I can grab my hands on. IMO I hardly think a perpetrator will continue to persue you after a blast from any load.

[Seraphim]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14_3.htm

[Bohemoth]

I agree with Holl!s. 00 Buck sounds cool, but 9 shot will cover most of your home defense needs unless zombies breach the perimeter. {...}
This may help: :)
http://www.geekologie.com/2007/10/26/zombie-kit.jpg

[LRPV]

Some good advice above. I'll add if I may.

If the cheap shells Hollis mentioned are unavailable, target grade is good. Low powder charge and small shot.

Education. I recommend Masaad Ayoob "In the gravest extreme". While of about 1980s vintage the book gives insights and issues citizens encounter after a shooting. There may be better out there, but this is a valuable heads-up as to how you might prepare for the trouble after the ears stop ringing.

[goat89]

^ Yep. Hopefully it's a pump shotgun so you can rack the slide menacingly and scare them away before you do any harm to your wallpaper...:)
*Hears noises from downstairs. Reacts by jumping out of bed and goes out to the hallway to hear again*
PAUSE
*The noise is positively IDed. Proceeds to wardrobe to take Old Faithful. Shells loaded, proceeds downstairs*
*Sources of noise positively IDed. Unknown figure ransacking living room. Attempts to take the shot from the top of the stairs. Aim and squeeze*
*Robber ducks at the right moment to check the lower drawer. Wallpaper is hit*
"F*CK!!!!! MY WALLPAPER!!!! I SPENT 6 HOURS SHOPPING FOR THAT WITH MY WIFE! I AM SURE AS HELL NOT DOING IT AGAIN! YOU ARE F*CKED@!!!!!" :D

[Ghostwolf]

but 9 shot will cover most of your home defense needs unless zombies breach the perimeter. The situational awareness is the key. Having the gun is not nearly as important as having a well-rehearsed plan for how you are going to put it into action.


In that case the shotgun will be useless, you will need several of these
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5YftEAbmMQ

[Laconian]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14_3.htm

Those were neat! Thanks, Sera!

[tyovan]

No worries guys - I don't have wallpaper ;)
Just plain, painted plaster walls

[panzerkardinal]

tyovan4,

In 1992, a group of us conducted a test on the effectiveness of various weapons in a residential environment.

We had constructed a mock 3 bedroom ranch style house, ie fully finished walls and doors.

Subject shotguns were Remington 870 Police with 20 inch barrels and HK/Benelli Super 90 also with 20 inch barrels.

The loads tested were Remington 00 buckshot, no. 4 buckshot, no. 6 birdshot, BB birdshot, solid deer slugs, Brenneke slugs, GECO sabot frangible slugs.

When fired from inside a room, every load overpenetrated the rooms walls. Every load transited at least another room, except the frangible slug. The slugs transited the entire "house" and went so far downrange we couldn't recover them.

When aimed at a standard hollow core door, the results were the same.

A solid core door stopped all rounds except for the deer slugs and the Brenneke slugs. That was expected since both had a velocity of around 1800 feet per second.

When fired at a supporting beam, there was no overpenetration. When fired at a wall stud the solid slug, Brenneke slug, and 00 buckshot all broke the stud and penetrated into another room.

The distance used for all the above tests was from one end of the room to the other, ie 15 feet.

We then set up a hypothetical "hallway" engagement.

An IPSC target was set up down a hallway 20 feet from the shooter. We found that the largest spread pattern was the BB birdshot which was around 4 inches in diameter and that was only because the wadding tumbled when it struck the target.

It was posited that in a combat stress situation, especially given the rudimentary bead sight of the 870, at 20 feet, you could actually miss your target.

The shotguns were also found to be very inconvient in a residential setting.

Most building codes mandate a hall way 42 inches wide. In order to change directions you had to drop the muzzle of both weapons.

Also trying to open a door required supporting the weight of the shotgun in one arm.

But this might not be valid since it is ill advised that a armed citizen roam throughout a house trying to clear rooms.

I don't recommend using a shotgun in a "home defense" situation. Contrary to popular wisdom, a shotgun is a very difficult weapons to handle properly. It's felt recoil is abusive to some. Unless you equip it with proper sights, it very inaccurate and it's ammunition consistently overpenetrates.

In the alternative I'd recommend a pistol caliber carbine. Because of the longer sight radius and the stock, a carbine is easier to shoot than a pistol. And depending on the load used, there's a reduced likelihood of overpentration.

Since you probably can't get you hands on a MP5 or a UMP, I'd recommend finding a Marlin Camp Carbine in 45ACP or 9MM.

[panzerkardinal]

You can buy bean bag shot and rubber ball shot as well. Mostly non-lethal and will put most anyone on their ass in pain. Something to think about if you live in a state where the criminals have more rights than you do.

I would highly recommend that you DO NOT use any form of non-lethal ammunition. Almost all non-lethal ammunition is unavailable to the public because you have to have specialized training to use it effectively. It you strike a person in the wrong part of the body you can gravely injure or even kill them, especially at close quarters.

Legally, once you pull the trigger, you've used a deadly weapon, regardless of the ammunition. And a good prosecutor could make the case that you actually weren't in fear for your life, and thus weren't justified in using your weapon, since you used non-lethal ammunition.


personally if me and my family is in danger than i dont care about his rights, but luckily i live in a good state.

any recommendations for a light for a home defense shotgun? im to cheap to buy a rail for my 500A

Before all this "go-fast high ***" equipment I used cv clamps and gaffer's tape to attach lights on to weapons.

________________________

I'm shocked that no one says the old, "hey who cares, just drag his body back into the house."

We must be evolving as a species.

[MJC9678]

Legally, once you pull the trigger, you've used a deadly weapon, regardless of the ammunition. And a good prosecutor could make the case that you actually weren't in fear for your life, and thus weren't justified in using your weapon, since you used non-lethal ammunition.


Dude, if you hit the intruder with a frying pan, some prosecutors will charge you will attempted murder....you will never be safe in states like NJ/NY. However you can make it harder for them to bring a strong charge against you. Using a "non-lethal" ammo takes some of the strength away from the argument. "I never intended to kill anyone officer, I only have non-lethal ammo!" He charged me in my kitchen.....with this rusty fishing knife....I found....errrr I mean HE PULLED!"

[Hollis]

Dude, if you hit the intruder with a frying pan, some prosecutors will charge you will attempted murder....you will never be safe in states like NJ/NY. However you can make it harder for them to bring a strong charge against you. Using a "non-lethal" ammo takes some of the strength away from the argument. "I never intended to kill anyone officer, I only have non-lethal ammo!" He charged me in my kitchen.....with this rusty fishing knife....I found....errrr I mean HE PULLED!"

That argument can be used with regular ammo too. Ambushing a intruder to kill them is one thing, defending yourself out of fear of your life or a love on is another. Shooting a guy, where both of his hands is holding your TV and walking out of the door, is not self defense.

What is important , if your going to use a firearm for home defense, is to understand the laws in your state on self defense.

A word of caution there is a lot of misinformation out there that will get a person in trouble. Such as ,,, if you shoot a intruder out side of your home, drag the body inside your home............. That will/can look like cold blooded murder to the police.

[Pete031]

.410 bore. Effective within 5 meters (which most engagements would be in a house) and it won't do too much damage going through walls and whatnot.

[Seraphim]

There is no such thing as non-lethal ammo...unless they shot foam nerf darts. ;)

[DocFrench]

I have the CX-4 Storm & 92 combo at my house, first 2 rounds up the pipe are snake shot. I looked into Glasser's, but they wanted $20.00 for 5 rounds! Arizona is an open carry state, thank God! If you're worried about overpenetration with a shotgun, look into some of the entry rounds with the powdered lead instead of shot. The wad is gonna do more damage at 3 m than the powder.

[highdiver_2000]

Hey guys,

I don't venture into this part of the forum very frequently. I saw there is a sticky about shotguns, but it has a huge number of pages.

Here's my situation - I have a two story home, with plaster walls. As of the end of September my wife, mother-in-law, and newborn son will be living here too. I have a 12 gauge shotgun I'd like to use for home defense.

However, I'd like some advice about which load to use. I'm not so much concerned with penetration of exterior walls as I am with interior walls. I want to be able to stop the intruder pretty darn quickly, but I don't want the shot to penetrate into other rooms and injure a family member.

What do you guys suggest I go with?

Thanks!

Congratulations ? !!!


123456789

[LongShot]

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/products_id/1272

Frangible's are the way to go, less over penetration concerns.

I did a range day with some of these a few months ago using the venerable watermelon and drywall of variying thickness (1/4" , 1/2" and 3/4")

From a range of 5 yards to 15 yards I used the drywall as a backdrop, with the oval green fruit as the perp (complete with ski mask.)

From 5 yards the watermelon was obliterated, overpenetration was;

1/4" complete

1/2" Minimal

3/4" Minimal

From 10 yards

1/4" significant

1/2" Minimal

3/4" Peppering and imbedded pieces of the 12 gauge sabot, but no penetration.


From 15 yards

1/4" Peppering without penetration

1/2" Peppering without penetration

3/4" Peppering without penetration


The above link was the ammunition i personally tested, but there are much better loads on the market, Winchester Ranger 12 gauge frangibles are supposed to be the best.

[sergey31]

Removed in order to save space on internet.

Read below
..... V......

[MJC9678]

You are wrong.
You will probably loose a civil lawsuit and pay for his medical and all the stress treatment if you shoot non leather ammo in those states. Be prepared to loose your house as well. And wife divorces you because you chose to be a ***** and shoot non-lethal ammo and now are homeless.

Or.... You shoot him, he stops in shock, pulls out his gun and kills you in his instinct self defense or just simple anger.

Or, realizes he's not fatally shot and it's just pain and no blood. Charges you takes away your shotgun, beats your head to the pulp with your brains splattered all over the hallway while your wife screams and paralyzed with fear, just before she gets it. Neighbors for some reason can't hear anything because they are watching a horror movie and think they have the best 3D surround system ever.

Something to think about.....


BTW: Racking shotgun slide to intimidate is a bad decision for many reasons. A few are.

You loose all your tactical advantage by revealing your position or cover you had. A powerful blinding light is much more affective + it will reveal if there's a weapon present also it causes confusion/disorientation/lose of vision etc.

You can cause burglar or invader to instinctively shoot you. It's called self preservation and yes even scumbag criminals have it and in most cased it's even more honed then average folk.

Intruder probably heard many times about how affective this method is in "scaring" their kind so he knows your not prepared to use deadly force.

Playing Racking slide intimidation game is a gamble and when gambling you can can loose.
If you identify an intruder, If he does not have a weapon you would want to give him avenue to escape or take him in to custody only if you know what your doing or have training... BUT, if he does have a weapon, well........ no one really knows unless it actually happens to them. There's so much much more to this then decisions, logic's, laws, morals, ethics, religion, philosophy, etc, etc.

I know some personal accounts of these situations but I won't get in to it now.

I'll quote you next time I am in court....thanks

[sergey31]

I'll quote you next time I am in court....thanks

If you end up in court over something like this then most likely DA already made up their mind for prosecuting for you doing something what you should have not, quoting someone on Internet will only prove their case against you as you acted with a premeditated mind.

I'm not promoting or advocating taking someones life in a situation where there's no threat against yours and if you have an option and thought process of letting someone go but choose to take their life then I have no sympathy for you.

BTW: You will end up in court (or many courts) if you do shoot less then lethal ammo. Not to mention in quite a few states they are illegal.

[California Joe]

Jeez sergey, the slide racking thing was tongue in cheek...You know, Hollywood...

Personally, I'm going to grab anything available I've got that kills people, if there's an intruder in my house...Even that M91/30 I've got sitting here next to me...

[Mastermind]

^^x2...Joe...Good policy.

I have always considered the 12 guage - 20" bbl pump an outstanding home defense weapon...I prefer the pistol grip stock, since careful aming at such close ranges with this weapon is not really necessay...I also contend, practice with it to aim low...feet and legs area...reduces chances of "through the house wall" accidents. Yes, 12 ga #7 will go right through two layers of sheet rock into the crib int he next room, no problem.

My nephew the cop tells me they have now switched to the automatics rather than the pumps. Bad guys have enough savy to key on the "jacking" sound...these hopped up punks are not intimidated by much...a silent clcik of the safety is much harder to hear and won't give your position away. However, I like the pump also for the quick misfire clearance...but, I have taken my Nephews advice and have my Browning Auto 5-12 guage, with 7 rnd capacity with magazine extension, barrel cut to 20.5", no choke home defender on order for my B-day coming up in a few months. mOf course, I aint about to part with the old trusty Mossburg 500 pump. :-)

[Hollis]

Side racking............

Well not all home intrusions are the same. Not all intruders are professional, most are probably idiots, drunks or teenagers (last stats I read, I can be way off so be nice). Not all home defense situations are intrusions.

A idiot at the door making threats, you call 9/11 and while your waiting for the cops, he knows your behind the door, so much for surprise. He does not have a firearm, maybe something much less if anything. Racking a shotgun, just might save you from having your door kicked and having to use lethal force.

When there is no other choice then use lethal force, when you have choices.......... then lethal force may be far from what is needed.

Over the years members of a household have been killed by another member of that household in a mistake in the need to use lethal force.


As sergey mentioned, you don't want to give a intruder the advantage, but you sure want to be sure it is a intruder not you kid coming home late from a date. Killing some one is probably something to forward too and if it can be avoided (key word: can be) the do so.

Because of all the variables, getting real training is much better than reading a forum on this topic.

[Remington Rand]

Probably, is what is called promo loads. They where the special least expensive boxes on sell. Usually 8 1/2 or 9 shot and low charges of power.

At point blank range the blast alone can be/is lethal. The lighter shot and charge will keep the pellets from going too far. This does not guarantee it will not penetrate a wall, because there are other factors. (wall thickness, distance to wall, etc)


Situational awareness is very important in home defense. Knowing where other members in the house are located, putting yourself in a position to take a shot that would be safer.

I agree. At close range cheap loads (labeled Dove or Small Game) will do the trick and are far less likely to go through a wall which as you pointed out is a major concern with family in the house.

[Roaming East]

Jeez sergey, the slide racking thing was tongue in cheek...You know, Hollywood...

Personally, I'm going to grab anything available I've got that kills people, if there's an intruder in my house...Even that M91/30 I've got sitting here next to me...

Wonder how the courts would take it if you bayoneted him...

[sergey31]

If you did what you had to do then courts will never see your case.

[Hollis]

If you did what you had to do then courts will never see your case.

^^^ I think that pretty much sums up the law. Listening to some people, they wish someone would break into their home so they could just blast them. I wish we knew a way to actually keep firearms out of the hands of criminals and idiots only.

[Mastermind]

RE: Home Invasions...here in las Vegas, home invasions are increasing. They are primarily gang related, and they seem to happen to people who have at least one family member who is in high school or has a drug problem. The perps are generally teens and are usally armed and show up in pairs or larger groups. We have had at least one excellent example of a home owner defedning his home with fire arms. He was prepared with is weapon in his hand when he went to the door...the youths tried to burst into the home and he opend fire. Home owner was not charged, although he hit one of the assailants...in this case all the assailants were caught. It is illegal here in Clark county to discharge a fire arm in the Las Vegas valley except in licensed gun ranges. One home owner was able to defend his property with a 9mm automatic pistol, discharging several rounds as perps tried to steal his "spiners" from his Escalade in his dirveway...he chased the little culprits down the street firing several rounds...he was charged for unlawfully discharging a firearm. Metero cops take a very dim view of anyone firing a weapon here..any kind of a weapon (registered or not, CCW or not) even bows and arrows, BB guns and sling shots.

Accordingly, if you were to be invaded in your home, you have every right to use deadly force to protect your home and your family...not so outside the home.

Regardless, no matter what, you had better be damn sure your life or lives were in danger before using deadly force. You can not use deadly force just to protect property...that is an absolute no-no.

And here is my personal bit of advice...after you have discharged your weapon, regardless of the circumstances, your life as you once knew it will be over afterward. You will be pushed through the legal system wringer no matter what.

[Laconian]

That last bit is very true. It is also the part most people are unprepared for, and is likely to be more stressful than the event.

[Ought Six]

"I have always considered the 12 guage - 20" bbl pump an outstanding home defense weapon...I prefer the pistol grip stock, since careful aming at such close ranges with this weapon is not really necessay..."This is the kind of advice that gets people killed. I used to have a pistol grip for an 870. I tried it in a number of staged scenarios, and it is completely worthless if you are more than 12 feet away. You cannot hit a damn thing with it unless you have lots of time to aim carefully, which you will not. The pattern from a shotgun remains fairly tight at the ranges you get indoors. Your shot is going to all go into a circle just a few inches across. A few degrees off means a clean miss from across a large living room, or down a hallway.

If you hear something in your house, you do not grab your weapon and charge in. That leads to you getting shot, or accidentally shooting an innocent person. You go only as far as you need to go so that an intruder would have to get past you to get to your wife or kids. Then you wait and listen. If you are sure there is an intruder, CALL THE POLICE AND STAY WHERE YOU ARE. You have the advantage of choosing your ground. Try to put a door jamb at least between your body and the approach an intruder would have to use. Force the intruder to come to you and expose himself. If he has a weapon, then shoot, and keep shooting until he falls down, drops the weapon or flees. If he does not have a weapon visible, shout to him that you have a gun and the police have been called. In most cases, he will run away. If he continues to advance, do not let him get any closer than 20 feet. If he gets any closer than that, he may be able to take your gun and use it to kill you and your family. Watch his hands at all times. Shoot if you have to, but only if you have to.

There may be cases where you have to clear the house. If you heard something, but you are not sure there is an intruder, you will need to check the house to verify all is secure. For this, you need a handgun and a proper flashlight. You cannot open doors, check closets and pass through narrow hallways safely with a long gun. You need a handgun; 9mm/.38 special minimum. Keep your damn finger out of the trigger guard until the moment you fire. Make sure the muzzle never points back towards where your family is.

Also get a good light. That is not the $2 one you got in the markdown bin at the hardware store. You need something bright enough to dazzle an intruder, making it very difficult for him to get off an accurate shot at you. Spend the money and get a decent tactical light; at least 80 lumens; preferrably 120+. If you have some large rooms in your home, sticking a few of the really bright 30 minute lightsticks in your pocket is not a bad idea. You can break 'em, shake 'em, and toss them into the dark corners of a room to light them up.

If you do find an intruder and get them at gunpoint, get your back up against a wall ASAP. He may have a buddy who will sneak up behind you while you are focused on this guy. Do not let yourself get 'tunnel vision'. Keep your wits about you and your eyes moving, watching what is going on around you. If the intruder is talking really loudly, he is probably not really talking to you, but to an accomplice to let him know where he is, and that he is being held at gunpoint. Have the intruder lay face down, hands straight out to his sides, palms down, fingers spread, legs spread. Yell to your wife to call the police. If you are alone, take your cellphone when clearing the house.

While you are checking the house, give the wife the shotgun and have her stay in the bedroom with the kids. Make sure you identify yourself very clearly and get her to respond clearly before reentering the bedroom. If you have an intruder at gunpoint, when the police arrive have them go to the bedroom window and have the wife pass them a key to the front door. When they come in, shout to them that you are the homeowner, and are holding an intruder at gunpoint. Listen to them carefully and do *exactly* what they say.

If you are forced to shoot an intruder, do not talk to the cops -- period. Tell them your lawyer will do the talking for you. That means SAY NOTHING WHATSOEVER. They will take you in, and that is fine. No matter what they say, tell them you want a lawyer AND THEN SHUT UP.

[kopema]

The pattern from a shotgun remains fairly tight at the ranges you get indoors. Your shot is going to all go into a circle just a few inches across. A few degrees off means a clean miss from across a large living room, or down a hallway... You cannot open doors, check closets and pass through narrow hallways safely with a long gun. You need a handgun; 9mm/.38 special minimum.

This is the best advice I've seen in this whole thread. When you're talking about indoor ranges, an additional 2 degree spread from a normal shotgun isn't going to help you. A sawed-off shotgun might do it, but that's illegal and if worrying about bystanders is your main concern, probably the dumbest option possible.

For home defense, you need something small, easy to store and handle, and that will let you get off additional shots quickly if you need to. And that has "handgun" written all over it. As for the size, get as much as you can comfortably control; a LOT more innocent people have been killed by under-penetration than by over-penetration. Never "spray and pray", but unless he's standing in a crowd, the odds of going through his body and hitting an innocent bystander are infinitesimal.

I get the impression that some people are trying to scare more than they're trying to stop. Don't get me wrong; it would be terrific if the invader simply took a dump in his pants and ran for the hills. If that happens, great. But it's foolish to COUNT on that to save your life.



Force the intruder to come to you and expose himself. If he has a weapon, then shoot, and keep shooting until he falls down, drops the weapon or flees. If he does not have a weapon visible, shout to him that you have a gun and the police have been called. In most cases, he will run away. If he continues to advance, do not let him get any closer than 20 feet.

Legally, this is a huge point. If the assailant KEEPS ADVANCING TOWARD YOU after you told him to stop or leave, you have the law (or at least every rule of civilized society) on your side. This takes away every after-the-fact claim that the "helpless" drug-addled career criminal wandered into the wrong house by pure innocent coincidence this time.

This might not be what the OP was looking for, but the best advice is more strategic than tactical. If you move somewhere surrounded by law-abiding gun owners, the odds of being assaulted drop dramatically. And if (heaven forbid) the second-worst-case scenario happens, you'll have a jury pool of people who aren't all societal rejects who identify more closely with the gang-banger than the taxpaying homeowner.


If you do find an intruder and get them at gunpoint, get your back up against a wall ASAP. He may have a buddy who will sneak up behind you while you are focused on this guy.

This kind of thing takes drilling. My favorite quip: "Don't wear a diaper with your gun." Spend the time it takes with safety training, target practice AND some (common sense, not Rambo crap) practice using the gun in the environment you think you might need it.



Do not let yourself get 'tunnel vision'.

I have no clue how to do this. In very general terms, I'd always try to assume any assailant has backup until I can confirm otherwise. But the way you deal with an addict with a screw driver is completely different than if it turned out to be a gang armed with uzis. I'm concerned that trying to think through every contingency would be a source of confusion that might get me killed in an emergency.

Platitudes like "don't panic" or "keep your mind and eyes open" don't really help in overcoming human nature in times of stress. What I need is something specific to focus ON - do you know of any suggestions for that?

[Jippo]

One of the key points is something called "+1 -rule". That means that if there is threat, there likely is another threat you haven't yet spotted. Keep the perp in control, but always keep on looking for the +1 threat you haven't spotted yet.

O.S. said that "keep your eyes moving", and that is literally what one should do. Do not concentrate on the one threat but keep looking for the second.

If the room you are in has windows or door to another room, position yourself so that you can keep an eye to those whilst having the perp on gunpoint. Never turn your back on to something you haven't cleared yet, including corners and furniture.

[kopema]

One of the key points is something called "+1 -rule". That means that if there is threat, there likely is another threat you haven't yet spotted. Keep the perp in control, but always keep on looking for the +1 threat you haven't spotted yet.

That helps. Don't assume the worst or your brain will explode; always assume the next-worse than what you've established. If you see one, assume there are two. If you spot a second guy, then assume there may be three, etc.

I can work with that.

[Laconian]

One of the best ways to control stress is to adopt a predator mindset. If you've done your training homework, you should be able to move in your own house, in the dark, a whole lot better than your adversary. You should have a battle drill (for lack of a better term) that re-seizes the initiative from the subject (jump his OODA loop, if you will). For example, something goes bump in the night, you should already know what you plan to do (move to the kid's rooms', unleash the hounds, etc.). In that manner you are focusing on a specific task which will keep your mind from racing. To do this well requires training, you should know how you clear your house to protect the kids or have called 9-1-1 and form a battle position in your hooch until the cav arrives.

Either way, if you don't practice it, you'll never do it in the game.

[LongShot]

OODA=Orient, Observe, Decide, Act..... Before someone asks.

[Ought Six]

J:
"O.S. said that "keep your eyes moving", and that is literally what one should do. Do not concentrate on the one threat but keep looking for the second."Thanks for clarifying that. I meant that literally. If your eyes are moving, you cannot get tunnel vision. It is only when you stop, stare, totally focus on your assailant and 'lock on' that you go into the tunnel vision effect. But while your eyes are moving, keep coming back to his hands. If you keep him more than 20 feet away, he cannot hurt you so long as his hands remain empty. If his hands move in towards his body or across to the other hand, watch out!

[James]

I remember my local gun shop selling some pretty funky shot gun rounds about ten years ago - something called Dragon's Breath, and another round that, IIRC, had two small slugs connected by about 4" of cable.

I have #4 shot in my Remington 870, but my go to home defense gun is a .45 and my surefire.

[Remington Rand]

If you did what you had to do then courts will never see your case.

A lot of it depends where you live.

In Texas, the average District Attorney would assume you were acting in self defense unless the facts proved otherwise. Where I live in California, the average DA would assume you were a bloodthirsty violent killer until it was proven beyond a reasonable doubt that you had no other option than to open fire on someone. Even then you might end up in court.

I havent taken a CCW class in a long time since it is nearly impossible to get a carry permit in CA, but 10 years ago I remember being told that in a home invasion situation (in California), the homeowner was expected to "retreat until cornered" which means if a guy busts down your front door you had to move toward the back of the house until you had nowhere to go...then you could fire. I have no idea if that was a statement of CA law at the time or one mans advice to keep you out of jail.

The last thing in the world I would ever want to do is be forced to fire on an intruder, and I agree with the comment above that racking a shotgun would hopefully send the person on their way without deadly force being used. That said, if someone busts in and threatens the family, I will be damned if I run.

[sergey31]

In CA there is no such a thing as retreat law when you are in your own home. If you live in SF area or anywhere near Berkley then they might just prosecute you for not proving handicap ramp for handicap burglars.

I live in Northern CA and I've seen quite a few cases where DA is not even interested in justified shootings.
Here's one for example. In this case the intruder did not even get actually inside the house or apartment in this case.
http://cbs13.com/local/vehicle.drive.shooting.2.841214.html

There was very similar incident in West Sac where the apartment owner shot trough the door injuring what would be home invaders and was also not prosecuted.

There was even an extreme case where the homeowner ran outside and shot at two car burglars running away (injuring one) and was not prosecuted at the end (thanks in large to public support for him and radio talk host Tom Sullivan).

BUT there have been numerous actual home invader shootings and all of them that I've heard about were justified (most of them happening in Elk Grove).

BTW. If you live in Sacramento county and if they do lay off all those officers then he might actually start issuing conceal weapon permits. (Although I think he's just using this as a scare tactic).

[Hollis]

I think it has been discussed previously, There are no retreat laws.

After saying that, home defense laws, limits and how the DA views a shooting, retreat may be the best option. When the burden of proof shifts to the home owner in showing that they fulfilled their legal obligations before using lethal force, it pretty much says.. run away don't shoot.


Example in the castle doctrine, the mere presence in ones home is all that is needed to be shown to justify the use of lethal force.


When a state requires other elements, Fearful of loss of life.. or show that the perp was their to seriously harm or kill, then the shooter must be able to demonstrate/prove those elements in order to justify their use of lethal force. Considering most citizens are not lawyers or trained in this area, then add the confusion and fog of the invent, a person may have difficulties in showing that those elements where fulfilled. If the DA is aggressive, the citizen protecting themselves can find themselves with charges against them.


A citizen could be charged with murder, because they could not prove the perp was their to rape the citizen's daughter. The perp was killed before they could commit that crime.

So knowing your state laws is very important and understanding what you DA will act on. A justified use of lethal forces could cost the citizen everything they own and their freedom.

The castle doctrine, even with it flaws, protects the citizen and not the perp. States that require a number of elements to be present before lethal force can be used, tends to protect the perp and not the citizen.

A citizen needs to be very aware if they choose to use lethal force. While most of us would support that citizen in taking out a perp, the accidental killing of a member of that home, a dunk who made a mistake in identifying a friends home, a late night friend of the kids, sneaking a visit....... ETC. Should never happen. Those would be very tragic events with life long consequences.

[Engine Mech]

There is an urban legent about a person in Auckland who loaded some shotgun cartriges with coloured cake decorations and then got to shoot some one. At the hospital they couldn't find any pellets but the wound had lots of strange colours.

[El Diablo Rojo]

I've done lots of research on this subject and I personally would not feel safe using anything less than #4 buck. Anything less will not penetrate enough to kill (or even disable if the BG's on something) and anything more may penetrate too much.

That said, if I were to own any long gun for HD purposes, it'd be a suppressed short-barrel AR-15 shooting hollowpoints. FWIW.

[Pete031]

Maybe you are surgical with an AR, however, Hollow point can still move through drywall. And doesn't always expand and loose all energy when fired. Why would you want an AR, specifically one with a can on it?

This is home defense.....

Whatever type of weapon you choose to defend your home, the key is mastering it... And like others have said having and rehearsing a plan.

[alexishere2007]

personally if me and my family is in danger than i dont care about his rights, but luckily i live in a good state.

any recommendations for a light for a home defense shotgun? im to cheap to buy a rail for my 500A

http://www.opticsplanet.net/surefire-weaponlights-621fa.html lol

or

a fenix light, really great lights I use a couple myself.

http://www.fenixlight.com/flashlight/ that's if you don't mind buying non american

-----------------------------------------------------

00 buckshot

[Seraphim]

I think a can is a bit overboard but it does have its advantages of lowering the noise level in a confined space such as a house and flash. There was a study done on 5.56 and 9mm and it was found that 5.56 went through less drywall/wood beams becase of the velocity and would fragment, while 9mm did not have the energy to fragment and would go through more material.

[Pete031]

5.56 hollow point?

[alexishere2007]

00 buck will not go through walls unless the wall is paper thin. With 5.56 and 9mm you have a chance of it penetrating through walls. Maybe that's something you would want if you know there is someone you want to shoot behind a wall.

[Hollis]

00 buck will not go through walls unless the wall is paper thin. With 5.56 and 9mm you have a chance of it penetrating through walls. Maybe that's something you would want if you know there is someone you want to shoot behind a wall.


Have you shot 00 buck?

Educate yourself and don't bloviate again. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Home defense is NOT the battle of Bulge, D-Day or any other military operation.

Home defense is not a Swat team operation.

What works in the above, probably is not what you need.

If you are expressing what someone told you and you don't know 100% don't pass that information on.

Clarify.............. use personal experience...........

[Pete031]

Shooting through walls should not be an option in Home defense...lol.
Unless you are in John Matrix's situation, most people should as others have said, barricade, and protect. Not start room clearing. Because most people do not know how.

[LongShot]

I've done lots of research on this subject and I personally would not feel safe using anything less than #4 buck. Anything less will not penetrate enough to kill (or even disable if the BG's on something) and anything more may penetrate too much.

That said, if I were to own any long gun for HD purposes, it'd be a suppressed short-barrel AR-15 shooting hollowpoints. FWIW.


I highly advise against using a SBR and/or a suppressor for home defense.

One: if said weapon is legal with proper paperwork and registration per the ATF (and it better be) Im almost positive the ATF, not to mention the DA would take notice with the fact that a SBR and suppressor was used in a home invasion shoot, justified or not. It also would look very bad. Aside from that, some counties/cities/states that otherwise allow NFA ownership have laws against using an NFA/AOW for self defense.

Two: If its not legal, you are screwed anyway.

[alexishere2007]

Have you shot 00 buck?

Educate yourself and don't bloviate again. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Home defense is NOT the battle of Bulge, D-Day or any other military operation.

Home defense is not a Swat team operation.

What works in the above, probably is not what you need.

If you are expressing what someone told you and you don't know 100% don't pass that information on.

Clarify.............. use personal experience...........

I would rather trust my life with 00 when I know the target is going down.

btw the reason I brought up shooting through a wall/ obstacle was because of someone's post about how someone had shot through a door and injured the would be intruder ultimately preventing anymore complications.

[Hollis]

00 buck will not go through walls unless the wall is paper thin.


I would rather trust my life with 00 when I know the target is going down.



Do you know that your first sentence/post contradicts your next post?

[Bro Jangles]

Personally my Mossberg 500a with a 18.5 in barrel is loaded with 2 3/4 bird shot. why? cuz its what i have.

[Hollis]

Personally my Mossberg 500a with a 18.5 in barrel is loaded with 2 3/4 bird shot. why? cuz its what i have.


LOL,

rock beats fist

Knife beats rock

Pistol beats knife

Rifle beats pistol.

If it all you have, use it.

I have a moss 590, I stack the rack, first two bird shot, then a few #5, then slug and 00 alternate.

I think much of this is a very personal decision. Person must take into account, their skill level or lack of skill, where they live, the house structure, closeness of neighbors, etc etc etc............

Also Laconian brought one of the most important points, Training. Having all the right stuff does not guarantee anything. It is the ability to use the stuff as planned. Practice/training, to come out of a deep sleep and to be able to respond accordingly is a part of what training/practice helps a person to do.

[El Diablo Rojo]

I highly advise against using a SBR and/or a suppressor for home defense.

One: if said weapon is legal with proper paperwork and registration per the ATF (and it better be) Im almost positive the ATF, not to mention the DA would take notice with the fact that a SBR and suppressor was used in a home invasion shoot, justified or not. It also would look very bad. Aside from that, some counties/cities/states that otherwise allow NFA ownership have laws against using an NFA/AOW for self defense.

Two: If its not legal, you are screwed anyway.
Interesting to note. Suppressors are not legal where I live anyway (Cali- hypothetical post in the 1st place) but if the DA where to mention that I (again, hypothetically) would ask him to speak up because I CAN'T HEAR HIM FOR THE HEARING DAMAGE FROM ALL THE SHOOTING AN SBR IN THE TIGHT CONFINES OF A HALLWAY. p-)