PDA

View Full Version : Russia’s Neighbors Resist Wooing & Bullying



Ordie
07-04-2009, 03:23 AM
July 3, 2009

Russia’s Neighbors Resist Wooing and Bullying

By ELLEN BARRY
MOSCOW — This was supposed to be Russia (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/russiaandtheformersovietunion/index.html?inline=nyt-geo)’s round in the battle over its backyard. All year, despite its own economic spasms, Moscow has earmarked great chunks of cash for its impoverished post-Soviet neighbors, seeking to lock in their loyalty over the long term and curtail Western influence in the region.
But the neighbors seem to have other ideas. Belarus (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/belarus/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) — which was promised $2 billion in Russian aid — is in open rebellion (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/15/world/europe/15belarus.html) against the Kremlin, flaunting its preference for Europe while also collecting money from the International Monetary Fund (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/i/international_monetary_fund/index.html?inline=nyt-org). Uzbekistan (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/uzbekistan/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) joined Belarus in refusing to sign an agreement on the Collective Rapid Reaction Forces, an idea Moscow sees as an eventual counterweight to NATO (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/n/north_atlantic_treaty_organization/index.html?inline=nyt-org).
There are other examples, like Turkmenistan’s May signing (http://www.jamestown.org/programs/edm/single/?tx_ttnews[tt_news]=34883&tx_ttnews[backPid]=27&cH) of a gas exploration deal with a German company, and Armenia (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/armenia/index.html?inline=nyt-geo)’s awarding of a major national honor to Moscow’s nemesis, President Mikheil Saakashvili (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/mikhail_saakashvili/index.html?inline=nyt-per) of Georgia (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/georgia/index.html?inline=nyt-geo). But the biggest came last week when Kyrgyzstan (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/kyrgyzstan/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) — set to receive $2.15 billion in Russian aid — reversed a decision that had been seen as a coup for Moscow, last winter’s order terminating (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/20/world/europe/20nato.html) the American military’s use of the Manas Air Base there.
“A game of chance has developed in the post-Soviet space: Who can swindle the Kremlin in the coolest way?” wrote the military analyst Aleksandr Golts, when news of the Manas decision broke. “Such a brilliant result of Russia’s four-year diplomatic efforts!”
There are few projects that matter more to Russia than restoring its influence in the former Soviet republics, whose loss to many in Moscow is still as painful as a phantom limb. Competition over Georgia and Ukraine has brought relations between Moscow and Washington to a post-cold-war low, and the matter is bound to be central to the talks that begin on Monday between Russia’s president, Dmitri A. Medvedev (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/dmitri_a_medvedev/index.html?inline=nyt-per), and President Obama (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/o/barack_obama/index.html?inline=nyt-per).
Russia’s ability to attract its neighbors to its side and keep them there is unimpressive. The Kremlin’s methods have been reactive and often bullying, combining incentives like cheap energy or cash disbursement with threats of trade sanctions and gas cutoffs (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/10/world/europe/10gazprom.html).
The war in Georgia (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/09/world/europe/09georgia.html) seems to have hurt Moscow in that regard. Rather than being cowed into obedience, as most Western observers feared, the former republics seem to have grown even more protective of their sovereignty. Moreover, the leaders themselves have thrived by playing Russia and the West and, in some cases, China off against one another, although that has not brought stability or prosperity to their countries.
In Moscow’s so-called zone of privileged interests, in other words, Russia is just another competitor.
“There is no loyalty,” said Oksana Antonenko, a senior fellow at the International Institute for Strategic Studies, based in London. “Rivalry is the persistent dynamic. They have to play in that game, to compete.”
Kyrgyzstan’s reversal on Manas is a case study in canny horse trading. Russian officials, including Mr. Medvedev, have said they blessed the decision, and that may be true, but President Kurmanbek S. Bakiyev (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/kurmanbek_s_bakiyev/index.html?inline=nyt-per) is the one who walked away with what he wanted.
Moscow wanted the base, a key transit hub for the United States’ war in Afghanistan, shut down; Kyrgyzstan wanted more money. In February, Moscow seemed to have achieved a master stroke — at a news conference announcing the pledge of $2.15 billion in Russian aid, Mr. Bakiyev said the United States would have to leave Manas in six months.
The first Russian payments — a $150 million emergency grant and a $300 million low-interest loan — arrived in April, allowing Mr. Bakiyev to pay wages and pensions as he began his re-election campaign. Then Kyrgyzstan shocked the region by announcing a new agreement with the United States. Washington will pay more than triple the rent for the base — now called a “transit center” — increasing its annual payment to $60 million from $17.4 million, while kicking in upwards of $50 million in grants to the government. No one knows if the Kremlin will make good on the rest of its pledge.
Mr. Bakiyev “played the Russians, then he played us,” said Alexander A. Cooley, an associate professor of political science at Barnard College (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/b/barnard_college/index.html?inline=nyt-org) who addressed the Manas dispute in a recent book, “Base Politics.” “It’s all about getting as much as they can.”
This should be easier for Russia, which dwarfs its Eurasian neighbors in both size and wealth. Russia retains a military presence in more than half the former Soviet countries, and huge swaths of their populations rely on Russian media for their news. Russia can offer muscular assistance in elections, as in Moldova, which has just received a Russian pledge of $500 million four weeks before voters go to the polls to elect a new Parliament.
But Russia’s strategy for consolidating support in neighboring capitals can hardly be called a strategy. Belarus’s president, Aleksandr Lukashenko (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/l/aleksandr_g_lukashenko/index.html?inline=nyt-per), who is avidly pursuing Western partners, has been barraged with carrots and sticks from Moscow — first promised $2 billion in Russian aid, then bitterly chastised for his economic policy, then punished with a crippling ban on the import of milk products, then rewarded by a reversal of the import ban. Russia regards Mr. Lukashenko’s truculence as a bluff.
“He is imitating a quarrel with Russia until the West demands serious changes from his regime, at which point, he will, of course, surrender,” said Parliament member Konstantin F. Zatulin, a standard-bearer for Russia’s ambitions in former Soviet space. “It’s just his greedy line of behavior.”
But the examples extend much farther. Every post-Soviet country that can manage it is pursuing a “multivector policy,” Mr. Zatulin acknowledged. Mr. Zatulin said he was not upset by these tacks away from Russia, but there was an edge to his answer.
“What is the point of being disappointed?” Mr. Zatulin said. “Pride comes before a fall. These are weak, dependent and poor countries which want to attract attention to themselves — not only attention, but aid. I cannot criticize them for that. But there are some red lines that shouldn’t be crossed.”
Herein lies the problem: Russia’s appeal to them just does not sound very seductive. Ideally, it would present an attractive model for its neighbors, politically and economically. Young generations would learn Russian because they wanted to, and the post-Soviet alliances would be clubs its neighbors are lining up to join.
In any case, Moscow will have to use tools other than wire transfers if it hopes to emerge from the financial crisis with a solid political bloc. As Alexei Mukhin, director of the nonprofit Center for Political Information, put it, “Love bought with money will not last long.
“That is purchased love,” he said. “It’s not very reliable.”

Source:http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/03/world/europe/03russia.html?em=&pagewanted=print

Mousepad
07-04-2009, 03:54 AM
"Russia's only allies - Russian Army, Russian Fleet". Damn we surrounded by crooks, methink most stable relations we have with Baltic states, at least they don't pretend to be our best buds. OTOH if Russia won't pay them then someone else will. When surrounded by hookers, one must act like pimp, or they gonna milk us dry.

And Ordie, you won't get 0.5$ coz your post is Russia Weak :)

Ordie
07-04-2009, 04:21 AM
And Ordie, you won't get 0.5$ coz your post is Russia Weak :)

RUSSIA STRONG!!!!!!

now can I have my 50 cents?

Mousepad
07-04-2009, 04:28 AM
RUSSIA STRONG!!!!!!

now can I have my 50 cents?

http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m377/mousepad_2008/53737.jpg

Yo!

Ordie
07-04-2009, 04:51 AM
You guys have a better sense of humor than the Chinese.

void
07-04-2009, 06:44 AM
The author sees the Manas airbase deal as a win for NATO and a loss for Russia? I dont see it that way. Firstly, Manas was previously used for any kind of cargo, now under the new deal it can only be used for non-military cargo. It also costs a crapload more.
I dont think Russia wanted the US completely out of Manas, after all, Russia allows non-military NATO cargo through its own territory, so the new deal at Manas is now actually perfectly in line with the Russian policy regarding its own territory.

AKS
07-04-2009, 06:49 AM
"Russia's only allies - Russian Army, Russian Fleet". Damn we surrounded by crooks, methink most stable relations we have with Baltic states, at least they don't pretend to be our best buds. OTOH if Russia won't pay them then someone else will. When surrounded by hookers, one must act like pimp, or they gonna milk us dry.

And Ordie, you won't get 0.5$ coz your post is Russia Weak :)


Well you know loyalty is a two way street.

I personally think Armenia made way too many pro Russian decisions that actually hurt her own interests (like the shrinking of the diameter of the gas tubes coming from Iran).

So its not like its al love from Russia either; yet the mood in Armenia, Belarus, and Kazakhstan is overwhelmingly pro Russian. Which is understandable given the fact that we lived together for quite some time.

Russianlynxy
07-04-2009, 11:45 AM
Well you know loyalty is a two way street.

I personally think Armenia made way too many pro Russian decisions that actually hurt her own interests (like the shrinking of the diameter of the gas tubes coming from Iran).

So its not like its al love from Russia either; yet the mood in Armenia, Belarus, and Kazakhstan is overwhelmingly pro Russian. Which is understandable given the fact that we lived together for quite some time.

Yes and it's sad that many of our neighbors have turned their backs to us in times of political and economic hardship. Instead turned to wealthier and what they deem as more promising political arenas.

I don't know how "pro-Russian" as you say, Armenia is. Armenia is a country that existed for centuries and our union with Armenia was because of a common enemy Ottoman and Persian raids in the Caucasus. But there is a reason for Kazakhstan and Belarus for being so. One of the primary ones are that both countries are to say the least- made-up. Kazakhstan never existed as a nation or a nationality - ever. It was just another place in Russia's center with various asiatic groups closely related to Mongols. The only reason the nation exists and in such proportions is because of Kruschev's redistricting of Russia's republics. One of the reasons Ukraine owns the Crimea today, etc.. Very unwise redistricting operation. Belarus was also never a nationality. Belarus in translation from Russian means (White-Russia, just as Ukraine literally translates into "borderlands" and nothing more). These lands never had national identity and were exchanged back in fourth between Russia and Poland throughout history. So in my opinion, these lands attempting to create a unique national identity is quite ridiculous.

I think a restoration of some sort of Union between some of the former Imperial/Soviet territories is optimal for all parties. For many years our countries functioned as one single body, and now that we are separated it's like the body has lost an arm and a leg. Much infrastructure and industrial capability was left in these territories which seriously harms both Russia's and the CIS nation's industrial potential. IMHO we can all be much safer and more prosperous together again.

P.S. - Do you think Armenia's turning down invitation in to NATO is also a Pro-Russian decision that hurt it's interests?

cmill
07-04-2009, 12:08 PM
You guys have a better sense of humor than the Chinese.

Don't be Ridicurous!! p-)

AlexMartin2
07-04-2009, 12:39 PM
Yeah, speaking of Chinese humor. Never heard of it :)

Ordie, I'm curious, do you believe in what was written is this article, or you just posted it there because it simply "about Russia"?

Ordie
07-04-2009, 01:22 PM
Yeah, speaking of Chinese humor. Never heard of it :)

Ordie, I'm curious, do you believe in what was written is this article, or you just posted it there because it simply "about Russia"?

I think it's interesting.
For 70 years it was the Soviet Union. A single country based on Communist idealology that bled together, prospered together and lived together.

Since the break up, each republic is trying to find it's own identity and legitimacy. It's difficult to do this with a personal neighbor such as Russia.

Mousepad
07-04-2009, 02:17 PM
I think it's interesting.
For 70 years it was the Soviet Union. A single country based on Communist idealology that bled together, prospered together and lived together.

Since the break up, each republic is trying to find it's own identity and legitimacy. It's difficult to do this with a personal neighbor such as Russia.

It goes way back before USSR, USSR< Russian empire. As for identity and legitimacy, well for some ex-USSR republicks it was made by USSR, borders, alphabet etc. From Russia Strong!!! pov - huge-assness of Russian Empire - series of defensive wars: Siberia - Mongols, Kavkaz - Turks, Poland - teh Germanz, Finlandia - Sweden (yeah they were not tree-hugging IKEA hippies back in a day), Middle Asia - just to stop those constant loot-raids from a rag-tag bunch of kazillion different nomad tribes.

Vityaz
07-04-2009, 02:29 PM
Since the break up, each republic is trying to find it's own identity and legitimacy. It's difficult to do this with a personal neighbor such as Russia.

More like its difficult to do so when some of the innocent freedom-loving republics are based on nationalities invented by Russian anthropologists in the 1920s.

Russianlynxy
07-04-2009, 03:09 PM
More like its difficult to do so when some of the innocent freedom-loving republics are based on nationalities invented by Russian anthropologists in the 1920s.

It's like saying Texans or Californians are their own nationality because they speak a different dialect and practice a different subculture.

Of course in politics you can turn around anything to your own benefit if you word it right.

Derbedeu
07-04-2009, 03:22 PM
More like its difficult to do so when some of the innocent freedom-loving republics are based on nationalities invented by Russian anthropologists in the 1920s.

Hmmm... if I recall my Russian history correctly, the Kievan Rus empire is acknowledged to be the founder of what today many consider Russia. In fact Muscovy was nothing more than some backwater village for quite awhile. Therefore if anything, Russia belongs to Ukraine, since the Russians are an artificial "race" and in fact nothing more than an offshoot of the Ukrainians!! :-D

Vityaz
07-04-2009, 04:03 PM
Hmmm... if I recall my Russian history correctly, the Kievan Rus empire is acknowledged to be the founder of what today many consider Russia. In fact Muscovy was nothing more than some backwater village for quite awhile. Therefore if anything, Russia belongs to Ukraine, since the Russians are an artificial "race" and in fact nothing more than an offshoot of the Ukrainians!! :-D

Firstly, "Russians" are a union of hundreds of East Slavic minor ethnicities that are now forgotten, some of whom have more in common with "Ukrainians" than with each other. And, as always, the loose dynastic identity that history knows as Kiev Rus' was not so much nationally (as there were East Slavic tribes outside of it) but politically "united" under the Rurik clan of princes. Just as the "union" was political, the "separation" was as well; the Tatar invaders' grip was firmer in southern steppe regions in today's Ukraine, so they ruled there much longer and were dislodged not by East Slavs in the Muscovite successor state but Poland-Lithuania, which brings in the whole religious question too. Today's "Ukraine's" historical roots of statehood are in Orthodox Cossack rebellions in the 17th century against Poland. But realize that the very word "Ukraine" originally meant 'frontier' [between Muscovy and Poland] in East Slavic language. Not very flattering from an independence point of view. But the borderlands rebel Cossack political identity grew so much in the following centuries, that its now taken as a national identity long after the Cossacks have faded to the periphery of society (they're still around!). Similarly, the Muscovite political identity eventually became the cosmopolitan imperial "Russian" nationhood. So in short, both today's "Russians" and "Ukrainians" are politically constructed identies, not races. Just like the French are amalgamation of Celtic, Latin and German sections melded over centuries under strong rule from Paris into a political nation.

But I was referring to Central Asia in my first post.

In this case some Turkic dialect-speakers got their own SSRs and some got the big red shaft due to decisions by Narkomnats (led by Stalin) and Bolshevik anthropolgists, and because the modern state system is scared sh*tless of irredentism, the artificially drawn Soviet internal borders have become sacred untouchable international borders.

For example, we've heard of Kazakhs and Kazakhstan and Uzbeks and Uzbekistan. But what about the Karakalpaks? Their dialect is just as distinct from Uzbek as Kazakh. Why do they not get their own Karakalpakistan? It's all so arbitrary, which is what I'm saying.

Derbedeu
07-04-2009, 04:08 PM
I would have thought that the :-D made it clear that I was joking. Apparently not. Oh well at least I got a free anthropological lecture out of it...

Vityaz
07-04-2009, 04:10 PM
I would have thought that the :-D made it clear that I was joking. Apparently not. Oh well at least I got a free anthropological lecture out of it...

No problem. As you can see, I enjoy this stuff. :)

Ordie
07-04-2009, 04:30 PM
If I scratch a Kazak, would I find a Russian?

Vityaz
07-04-2009, 04:49 PM
No, but maybe you'll find Borat.

lightfire
07-04-2009, 04:56 PM
It's like saying Texans or Californians are their own nationality because they speak a different dialect and practice a different subculture.

Of course in politics you can turn around anything to your own benefit if you word it right.


Is that some sort of pan-slavian idea or smth? Are you saying poles, ukrainians don't exist, or Baltic culture is a subculture of Russia and Baltic language group is a slavic dialect and there is no nationality appart russian?

NowPlaying
07-04-2009, 05:08 PM
Moscow back then in Kievan Rus times was just a primitive finno-ugric village, Maskva from finno ugric language translates as "dark water". "Russians" themselves are not even real slavs, in fact most of them are finno ugric or turkic people who stole Kievan Rus slavic language and orthodox religion.

Vityaz
07-04-2009, 05:18 PM
Is that some sort of pan-slavian idea or smth? Are you saying poles, ukrainians don't exist, or Baltic culture is a subculture of Russia and Baltic language group is a slavic dialect and there is no nationality appart russian?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balto-Slavic_languages

So maybe its not a pan-Slavic myth. Maybe a pan-Baltic myth? :)

I believe he (and I) were referring to the arbitrariness with which the Soviet internal borders were drawn, and not plotting to take over Lithuania. You can rest easy.

AlexMartin2
07-04-2009, 05:20 PM
Moscow back then in Kievan Rus times was just a primitive finno-ugric village, Maskva from finno ugric language translates as "dark water". "Russians" themselves are not even real slavs, in fact most of them are finno ugric or turkic people who took Kievan Rus slavic language and orthodox religion.

And you say that Ukrainians are the real slavs who live under Russian occupation for centuries, right? :)

Vityaz
07-04-2009, 05:22 PM
And you say that Ukrainians are the real slavs who live under Russian occupation for centuries, right? :)

Check out this guy's post in the Kuril Islands topic. :roll:

ko3apa
07-04-2009, 05:28 PM
" These are weak, dependent and poor countries which want to attract attention to themselves — not only attention, but aid. "

quoted for truth . i say let them go , they will be back and begging for russia's help before you know it . belarus belives they can become super wealthy and influential , like the rest of east eu members . armenia can ask georgia for help once the azeris and turks decide to join forces .

i guess they all slept through georgia war , saka was convinced eu and nato would solve all his problems and now look how that turned out . eu and nato care about these eastern nations about as much as i care about last winters snow .

NowPlaying
07-04-2009, 05:29 PM
And you say that Ukrainians are the real slavs who live under Russian occupation for centuries, right? :)

Sad isn't it. You stole Ukrainian ancient culture, religion, language, land and at the end even freedom. :(

intelligenzija
07-04-2009, 05:31 PM
Sad isn't it. You stole Ukrainian ancient culture, religion, language, land and at the end even freedom. :(

The only thing we stole was their sala.

AlexMartin2
07-04-2009, 05:32 PM
Sad isn't it. You stole Ukrainian ancient culture, religion, language, land and at the end even freedom. :(

How sad, I'm crying right now.
But before I die I want to know, you are joking or being serious?

Akril
07-04-2009, 05:50 PM
Moscow back then in Kievan Rus times was just a primitive finno-ugric village, Maskva from finno ugric language translates as "dark water". "Russians" themselves are not even real slavs, in fact most of them are finno ugric or turkic people who took Kievan Rus slavic language and orthodox religion.

Orly? How about Novgorodians (by the way the political centre of Rus before Kiev has been founded and the second after Ladoga), Pskovitans, Razanians, Smolenians and so on?
Maybe an original inhabitants of such regions which is know now as a Crimea and East Ukraine (Novorossia back in Imperial times, and who know how it was named in Khazar Khaganate) were true Slavs? How about Cossacks?
Kiev itself has been founded by Varangians on the original Bulgar (ancestors of Tatars) settlement after they found that Novgorod is to far away from Byzantine Empire. Would you call then Ukrainians as "a Turks who stole Greek religion and original Slavic land"?

TakeIt
07-04-2009, 07:27 PM
Check out this guy's post in the Kuril Islands topic. :roll:
Indeed, he dwarwens Kilgor and Switek combined. A marvelous specimen.

AKS
07-04-2009, 09:11 PM
P.S. - Do you think Armenia's turning down invitation in to NATO is also a Pro-Russian decision that hurt it's interests?

To be honest, I did not know that NATO invited us.

But even if they did, I think thats actually a smart decision (declining to join) for Armenia's own interests, plus it creates better relations with Russia.

There is absolutely no real need for Armenia to join NATO IMHO.

I think the joint NATO exercises with Armenian troops (among others) and various peacekeeping operations are awesome and just the right amount of cooperation.

Lets face it, Russia is hour and a half of flight away, while the US is a continent and a ocean away. So closer ties with Russia just make more sense and are natural.

But that does not mean we should forget our interests. Russia made some very lucrative deals in Armenia (especially in the energy sector) under Putin (props to the guy) but Armenia lost a lot of control of its own resources while doing so.

asch
07-04-2009, 09:28 PM
Sad isn't it. You stole Ukrainian ancient culture, religion, language, land and at the end even freedom. :(
oh no, man, not language, please! p-)

vi
07-04-2009, 09:46 PM
^^ "Ancient culture" is not the right word, "prehistoric" sounds more appropriate. After all, some Ukrainian historians date Ukraine back to 150 000 years ago :lol:

Russianlynxy
07-04-2009, 10:26 PM
Ukrainian nationalists are in the process of trying to create some sort of national identity out of something that never really existed. Rewriting history and more importantly re-interpretation of key historical events are part of this process.

There is a Ukrainian historian who claimed that "Ukrainians" originated from North Indian and Iranian tribes (Aryanism anyone??), also that both Buddha and Jesus were Ukrainian. This has become a subject for jokes all over the ru-net. rofl

Mr.K
07-04-2009, 10:31 PM
Oh ELLEN BARRY, even defending the 'last dictatorship of Europe' Belarus that is, from Russian "bullying"....

Bolshoy
07-04-2009, 10:35 PM
1245454555

Bolshoy
07-04-2009, 10:37 PM
Ukrainian nationalists are in the process of trying to create some sort of national identity out of something that never really existed. Rewriting history and more importantly re-interpretation of key historical events are part of this process.

There is a Ukrainian historian who claimed that "Ukrainians" originated from North Indian and Iranian tribes (Aryanism anyone??), also that both Buddha and Jesus were Ukrainian. This has become a subject for jokes all over the ru-net. rofl

Russians, Ukrainians, Byelorusians can be all part of same family, but they are "different" enough to exist as separate nations, at least Ukrainians.

lightfire
07-06-2009, 05:36 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balto-Slavic_languages

So maybe its not a pan-Slavic myth. Maybe a pan-Baltic myth? :)

I believe he (and I) were referring to the arbitrariness with which the Soviet internal borders were drawn, and not plotting to take over Lithuania. You can rest easy.

I was also referring to your phrase about "nationalities invented by Russian anthropologists". Despite the similarities between Slavic and Baltic languages and a theory of balto-slavic subgroup, just wondering are you suggesting nationalities (Lithuanian for instance) is an invention, or is it not your suggestion you are speaking of, but comes from those, who drew the boundaries?

sepheronx
07-06-2009, 05:39 AM
Like someone on here said. Let them go.

They will be back, as the money form the nations who will support them will dry up, and they will just be used for the bigger players from the west (france, England, USA), so if they want prosperity, it comes at a price. And they will go back to Russia asking for aid.

These countries are not playing a dangerous game, not at least to Russia. But only to their own national security.

Kippari
07-06-2009, 06:41 AM
Damn, you Russkies should give us back the whole region between Estonia and Urals and between Yaroslavl and the Arctic Ocean.p-)

Holycrusader
07-06-2009, 06:49 AM
The author sees the Manas airbase deal as a win for NATO and a loss for Russia? I dont see it that way. Firstly, Manas was previously used for any kind of cargo, now under the new deal it can only be used for non-military cargo. It also costs a crapload more.
I dont think Russia wanted the US completely out of Manas, after all, Russia allows non-military NATO cargo through its own territory, so the new deal at Manas is now actually perfectly in line with the Russian policy regarding its own territory.


Not to mention that US military personel almost left the base. Now US civilians will work there...

So, we agree here.

Red_Rage
07-06-2009, 08:36 AM
^^ "Ancient culture" is not the right word, "prehistoric" sounds more appropriate. After all, some Ukrainian historians date Ukraine back to 150 000 years ago :lol:


I wish they didn't take down the articles from Ukranian Rada site, which explained that Ukrs (rofl) are actually over 10000 year old peoples, and that Greeks actually stole the Ukr culture. There was also another pseudo-scientific essay on the same site, from the same group of "reserachers", with its thesis stating that Buddha was actually an Ukr as well (xoxлы и буддизм rofl).

Derbedeu
07-06-2009, 08:38 AM
Like someone on here said. Let them go.

They will be back, as the money form the nations who will support them will dry up, and they will just be used for the bigger players from the west (france, England, USA), so if they want prosperity, it comes at a price. And they will go back to Russia asking for aid.

These countries are not playing a dangerous game, not at least to Russia. But only to their own national security.

Yea sure, keep telling yourself this if it makes you feel better...:roll:

vi
07-06-2009, 02:58 PM
Damn, you Russkies should give us back the whole region between Estonia and Urals and between Yaroslavl and the Arctic Ocean.p-)
Never will we part with the lands of Novgorod p-)

You can have Estonia back :)

Vityaz
07-06-2009, 06:31 PM
I was also referring to your phrase about "nationalities invented by Russian anthropologists". Despite the similarities between Slavic and Baltic languages and a theory of balto-slavic subgroup, just wondering are you suggesting nationalities (Lithuanian for instance) is an invention, or is it not your suggestion you are speaking of, but comes from those, who drew the boundaries?

See the last part of my long post. I was talking about Central Asia in the '20s.

Russianlynxy
07-06-2009, 07:03 PM
I was also referring to your phrase about "nationalities invented by Russian anthropologists". Despite the similarities between Slavic and Baltic languages and a theory of balto-slavic subgroup, just wondering are you suggesting nationalities (Lithuanian for instance) is an invention, or is it not your suggestion you are speaking of, but comes from those, who drew the boundaries?


See the last part of my long post. I was talking about Central Asia in the '20s.

Also applies to Ukraine and Belarus. There is absolutely no long-term historical record of "Ukrainians"... as opposed to say Lithuanians who existed for over 1000 years. Kievan Rus is NOT Ukraine, it was all Rus, stretching from Novgorod, to Kiev, to Moscow. The concept of an ancient Ukraine is almost as ridiculous as the concept of an ancient Bosnia.. This is even more severe with Belarus which is simply Russians under a different name (Belarus literally translates into white-rus). Just like there were Russian factions during Mongol/Tatar wars... Muscovy and Ryazan, which today are both Russian cities. Kievan rus was called "the road from the Varangians to the Greeks"... Varangians being Varangian Vikings who founded Novgorod and Greeks being the Byzantine empire. In other words, Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus are not independent entities... they are a dismembered Rus. This isn't even pan-slavism, because Poland and Russia for example are both slavs but are not Rus. Attempts to historically justify the historical legitimacy of Ukraine and Belarus are attempts to undermine the general term, Rus, and give rise to nationalism which is primarily aimed at taking the issue farther from Ukraine and Belarus but into Russian Federation proper, which has many such Ukraine's and Belarus' in the form of republics.