The 'democratic' Hungarian government are proving themselves again

[gazell]

Not much media coverage, earlier on, the right wing TV reporter said media was also asked to leave, he ended up in hospital according to some news. The leader of the Jobbik got also taken away by police from a sitting demonstration.

http://www.hirtv.hu/?tPath=/view/videoview&videoview_id=8391

[23EightySix]

Is this the fallout from the banning of the Magyar Gárda?

[breki]

Oh, did they ban those guys for real?

[23EightySix]

Apparently so.

Its amazing how easily the current administration is manipulated by Jobbik. By banning the Gárda they cause resentment within a fairly decent portion of the populace yet free Jobbik from the baggage of the group.

Should be a couple interesting years for Magyarország.

[gazell]

Yes, apparently these were demonstrations against the ban. It is the second degree court ruling. Can go to High Court still. It doesn't make too much difference though, it's a bit like banning gravity, these people shall not disappear.

I do not know, who manipulates whom, but this is again free ad for the Jobbik - they are trying to divide the right with this and hoping for less votes for the big rival FIDESZ, I'd think -, on the other hand, the government has been taking over and carrying out their policies: re-calling policemen from retirement, trying to enlist Roma into the army and police, organising vilagge guard.

Do agree though, it should be 'interesting'. When the ban was brought out in the first degree, some 500 people joined the Guard.

[gazell]

Just a few more pictures about the fun.

http://vastagbor.blog.hu/2009/07/05/a_nap_kepe_20090641

[Connaught Ranger]

So an ultra right para-military style group (the term, fascist based, springs to mind) get banned. Is it any surprise after post 1934-1945.

And people here on MP.net try to make excuses for them (Magyr Garda) :roll:

Connaught Ranger.

[gazell]

So an ultra right para-military style group (the term, fascist based, springs to mind) get banned. Is it any surprise after post 1934-1945.

And people here on MP.net try to make excuses for them (Magyr Garda) :roll:

Connaught Ranger.

I don't think anybody was making excuses for them here. What would be the point, anyway? They are a political/historical phenomenon that soon is getting more public support than the government.

I was posting about how the police handled a peaceful demonstration, which I think is real bad, regardless, who is demonstrating.

[Connaught Ranger]

I don't think anybody was making excuses for them here. What would be the point, anyway? They are a political/historical phenomenon that soon is getting more public support than the government.

Please feel free add the words "In my opinion", at the start of the comment (in bold):roll:

In reality they are a bunch of fascist bully boys, who now have been banned.

I was posting about how the police handled a peaceful demonstration, which I think is real bad, regardless, who is demonstrating.

Boo Hoo! I have seen football supporters in various sprayed with tear gas for not doing what they were told by the Police.:roll: Your Magyar Garda have no special rights.

[gazell]

OK, that's my opinion. And that's yours.

Recent survey found some 20 something percent of those questioned were worried about the Guard, 10 % of them would vote for the Guard if they were a political party.

The current survey on sure party voters: 9% of those questioned votes socialist.


IMHO you don't spray on peaceful sitting demonstration. What for?

Over 200 people arrested that afternoon. Must be some record for Hungary. Amongst them 4 for having 'scary balloons'.p-) IE: black and white.

[gazell]

http://galeria.index.hu/belfold/2009/07/04/a_rendorseg_megkezdte_a_tomeg_/?current_image_num=7&image_size=l

Just a picture for you, too, to show that this police action is not to be proud of, even if someone is that arrogant as yourself. Your lack of information/or disinformation on Central-European affairs is amasing though coming through in most topics you touch for someone living in Transylvania.

http://galeria.index.hu/belfold/2009/07/04/a_rendorseg_megkezdte_a_tomeg_/?current_image_num=7&image_size=l

[Murus]

Gazell, I understand what you want to tell us, but I think, nobody cares what happen with the members of the gárda. Connaught Ranger and the others are just happy that they got banned. That is the important fact. If you had made a thread about this, you could read different posts.

[gazell]

Gazell, I understand what you want to tell us, but I think, nobody cares what happen with the members of the gárda. Connaught Ranger and the others are just happy that they got banned. That is the important fact. If you had made a thread about this, you could read different posts.


Well, yes, I did not maid a post about that.:)

I maid a post about worrying about democracy in Hungary, which is more threatened in my view by the government right now. Unfortunately.

[Murus]

Well, yes, I did not maid a post about that.:)

I maid a post about worrying about democracy in Hungary, which is more threatened in my view by the government right now. Unfortunately.


If you are worrying about that, I have to agree with you.

Next time choose a better "victim" as the gárda, and made your opinion more clear. I wasn't sure at first, what you want.

[gazell]

If you are worrying about that, I have to agree with you.

Next time choose a better "victim" as the gárda, and made your opinion more clear. I wasn't sure at first, what you want.

Yes, but the choice of victim is the government's not mine. I'm sure we see a lot more of this coming up to election time. Would not be surprised if they got onto banning right wing parties, soon.

[RIPTIDE]

http://galeria.index.hu/belfold/2009/07/04/a_rendorseg_megkezdte_a_tomeg_/?current_image_num=7&image_size=l

Just a picture for you, too, to show that this police action is not to be proud of, even if someone is that arrogant as yourself. Your lack of information/or disinformation on Central-European affairs is amasing though coming through in most topics you touch for someone living in Transylvania.

http://galeria.index.hu/belfold/2009/07/04/a_rendorseg_megkezdte_a_tomeg_/?current_image_num=7&image_size=l
Rofl.

In the US we have militias and Black Panthers etc etc and all sorts of hate groups.

[Murus]

Rofl.

In the US we have militias and Black Panthers etc etc and all sorts of hate groups.

Yes, you also have people, who are worried about these groups. US is a big country, maybe you have place for them, we don't.

[Connaught Ranger]

Rofl.

In the US we have militias and Black Panthers etc etc and all sorts of hate groups.

Lets not forget the K.K.K. and the Far Right White Supremacist nut-jobs such as the Aryan Nation:roll:

[Connaught Ranger]

Yes, but the choice of victim is the government's not mine. I'm sure we see a lot more of this coming up to election time. Would not be surprised if they got onto banning right wing parties, soon.

We can but hope Hungary takes a lead in banning such groups.woot

[Connaught Ranger]

http://galeria.index.hu/belfold/2009/07/04/a_rendorseg_megkezdte_a_tomeg_/?current_image_num=7&image_size=l

Just a picture for you, too, to show that this police action is not to be proud of, even if someone is that arrogant as yourself. Your lack of information/or disinformation on Central-European affairs is amasing though coming through in most topics you touch for someone living in Transylvania.

http://galeria.index.hu/belfold/2009/07/04/a_rendorseg_megkezdte_a_tomeg_/?current_image_num=7&image_size=lSo a Fascist granny gets carried away from an illegal demonstration, what no blood shed? no pictures of the Police beating her sorry ass with clubs?:roll:

You open admiration for a far right group is very clear though, no matter how you try to hide itp-)

Connaught Ranger.

[Empulse]

Good news, very good news.

Not that it really matters, because the Hungarian government is a bunch of dangerous extremists anyway. For quite some time now they have been trying to strengthen their sphere of influence in Slovakia. Many Hungarians don't recognize Slovakia as sovereign country and would support annexation. Obviously, they lack the political power to ever attempt so.

[gustav]

Well they let them express "freely" in the 30's. Not going to shed a tear for these kind of people.

[Stormz_STA]

[QUOTE=Empulse;4249171]Many Hungarians don't recognize Slovakia as sovereign country and would support annexation. [QUOTE]

I don't know if it's true but if so I'm sure it's just a small minority of Hungarians. Every country in Europe has it's own small dose of wackos so Hungary isn't the only one.

[Empulse]

I don't know if it's true but if so I'm sure it's just a small minority of Hungarians. Every country in Europe has it's own small dose of wackos so Hungary isn't the only one.

It's kinda different in Slovakia. Hungary recently refused Slovakia's invitation to discuss this particular matter.




Hungarian extremists seek to re-draw results of Trianon Treaty.
"Altogether, the new European Parliament will have more than 30 members who could be described as being on the extreme right, and in some cases xenophobic or outright racist. Among the ex-communist EU member states in particular, where the average turnout was just over 31 percent, compared with an overall average of 43.24 percent for the 27-nation bloc, such splinter groups did especially well.

Extreme-right parties – aided by the historically low voter turnout – captured enough of the protest vote to win seats for the first time. The most militant and successful of them all, the neo-fascist For a Better Hungary (Jobbik) party, which campaigned against “Gypsy crime” and other minorities, got nearly 15 percent of the vote and will send three representatives to Brussels and Strasbourg. “So-called proud Hungarian Jews should go back to playing with their tiny little circumcised tails,” said future MEP Krisztina Morvai, leaving little doubt as to her party’s leanings." [Transitions Online (ttp://www.tol.cz/look/TOL/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrIssue=325&NrSection=2&NrArticle=20639), June 12]
The three Jobbik winners who will hold seats in the European parliament have already announced that they wish to end the implementation of the Czechoslovak post-war Benes degress in the EP (http://www.ceskenoviny.cz/zpravy/hungarian-extremists-in-ep-to-seek-benes-decrees-abolition/382578). Apparently, Jobbik's deputy chairman and new MEP Csanad Szegedi made this clear in Budapest on Saturday.
http://alina_stefanescu.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341ce39f53ef0115711b8672970b-320wi (http://alina_stefanescu.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341ce39f53ef0115711b8672970b-pi) The decrees issued by Czechoslovak president President Edvard Benes (in office 1935-48) provided for the confiscation of the property of collaborators, traitors, ethnic Germans and Hungarians, except for those who themselves suffered under the Nazis. They also formed a basis for the transfer of the former groups from Czechoslovakia after WWII. Szegedi said Jobbik would first submit a request for the abolition of the Benes decrees in the EP (http://www.politics.hu/20090615/jobbik-meps-to-fight-for-pretrianon-borders).

The movement would also push for the abolition of the Trianon peace treaty signed after World War I in 1920 that diminished the territory of the former Hungary to its current scale. Due to the treaty millions of Hungarians suddenly found themselves in the position of ethnic minorities in the neighbouring countries, including the 5-million Slovakia where some 500,000 ethnic Hungarians live. "The Trianon border must be forgotten completely in several generations or even earlier," Szegedi claimed, adding this is one of his party's main goals. Jobbik wants 2010 to become the year of Trianon (http://www.politics.hu/20090615/hungarian-farright-announces-new-national-and-international-agenda). Szegedi gave a speech at a meeting of the youth 64 Counties Movement (http://www.budapesttimes.hu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12240&Itemid=219), attended by some 250 members of the para-military Hungarian Guard and some 500 of its supporters.
In response to Jobbik's assertions, the junior ruling nationalist Slovak National Party (SNS) of Jan Slota said in reaction to it that it would propose a resolution rejecting the demand for a border change in the EP. How do other EP members feel about the Benes decrees? Can Jobbik draw on enough existing nationalist malaise to move such a motion through parliament?



In an interview from a few years back, historian Jan Kuklik explained (http://www.radio.cz/en/article/44227),"the Benes decrees are a part of Czech, or Czechoslovak legislation, because in 1991, a special constitutional bill was adopted which said that also those parts of the Benes decrees" contrary to human rights principles are not in force. The "so-called problem of the Benes decrees according to international law is solved because there is really no contradiction between Czech legislation and international law, especially from the point of view of human rights in the Czech Republic." Kuklik makes the obvious point that the Benes decrees did not pose an obstacle to EU accession for the Czech Republic, which clearly indicates the European Union's support of the Benes decrees as currently understood.


(BRATISLAVA) - Slovak Prime Minister Robert Fico said Monday he was afraid of rising extremism after neighbouring Hungary's far-right Jobbik party won three seats in the European Parliament elections.
"It is bad. The party which openly speaks about autonomy (of ethnic Hungarians in Slovakia) and promotes the most extreme-right and extremist opinions will cause great instability in this region," Fico said.
"The Hungarian voters have made their choice. We can't interfere in their choice, therefore we have to get ready for extremes that will originate from these positions and we will react to them appropriately," Fico added.
"It would be even worse if Jobbik succeeded in the upcoming general election in Hungary (due 2010)," he said.
Jobbik -- which means "better" in Hungarian -- came third after the opposition centre-fight Fidesz party and ruling Socialists, winning three seats with 14.74 percent of the vote under its slogan "Hungary for Hungarians!"
It calls for the re-establishment of a Greater Hungary, reincorporating regions that were cut from its territories after World War I.
Slovakia, part of the Austro-Hungarian empire, was administered from Budapest before the monarchy collapsed at the end of WWI.
Historically tense relations between Hungary and Slovakia took a hit when the Slovak National Party (SNS) joined the Slovak governing coalition in 2006.
In Slovakia, the ruling left-wing party led by Fico won the elections and its junior coalition partner, the ultra-nationalist Slovak National Party known for inflammatory rhetoric against Roma and Hungarians, picked up its first-ever seat in the European Parliament amid one of the lowest turnouts in Europe.


http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/1244476922.29/Hungarians are good at lobbying and spreading propaganda. What do they think. It's like my country saying that Belgium should be incorporated again or Germany saying that Prussia should be annexed. In fact, extremist parties in Holland have called for the annexation of Flanders, but not to the degree or seriousness that these Hungarian extremist seek.

[Stormz_STA]

It's kinda different in Slovakia.

What do you mean?
Anyway, if people like Keisztina Moravi ever come to power in Hungary they will be pacified rather quickly by EU because we - Europeans - cannot allow "old nationalistic demons" to rise again. And I belive people all over Europe do understand this. And I do admit language used by Jobbik folks is scary.

[Empulse]

What do you mean?
Anyway, if people like Keisztina Moravi ever come to power in Hungary they will be pacified rather quickly by EU because we - Europeans - cannot allow "old nationalistic demons" to rise again. And I belive people all over Europe do understand this.

That the majority of Hungarians in Slovakia is significant; making up 10% of the total population. The problem, however, is that they are demanding more and more, and are successful at doing so. In many of the southern regions the public schooling system has been ''Hungarinized'' so to speak. Apart from private schooling, I cannot see what country would allow that, in Germany or the Netherlands you will not find public schools were respectively German and Dutch are not the official language. They demand their books to be in Hungarian. When the names on maps in a geography book were printed in Slovak, the reaction was outrageous. However, the major problem lies within the Hungarian government. They are actively contributing to this nationalistic sentiment beyond its borders and stimulating it. As I've stated, they are good at lobbying and spreading propaganda, making Slovaks fearful of the growing influence that Hungary seems to enjoy.

Although I am not of Central European decent myself, I've lived there for quite some time and can assure you that Hungarians are among the most nationalistic extremists in Europe. Most countries have experienced enough suffering to understand what this form of nationalism can lead to, Hungarians not.

Anyhow, imagine the consequences if these extremists would get what their main objective is:

http://appliedpeoplewatching.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/trianon_map.gif

[Stormz_STA]

Although I am not of Central European decent myself, I've lived there for quite some time and can assure you that Hungarians are among the most nationalistic extremists in Europe. Most countries have experienced enough suffering to understand what this form of nationalism can lead to, Hungarians not.

Where exactly did you live?
And talking about Hungarians being the most extreme nationalists in Europe, aren't you generalizing too much?

[Empulse]

Where exactly did you live?
And talking about Hungarians being the most extreme nationalists in Europe, aren't you generalizing too much?

I've lived in the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary. Generalizing? Perhaps, but that's my opinion based on my experiences.


BUDAPEST/BERLIN
(Own report) - Hungarian rightwing extremists are preparing a resolution to the European Parliament to revise the Beneš Decrees and are demanding German parliamentarians to support them in this effort. The resolution is initiated by a member of the Jobbik Party, who was recently elected to the European Parliament. The Jobbik Party has won 15 Percent of the votes in Hungary. Numerous German politicians support this demand to annul the Beneš Decrees because Hungary and Germany share common ethnic political concepts legitimizing claims against neighboring countries. For years, Budapest has invoked the ethnic "right of blood" ("ius sanguinis"), adapted by Germany, co-opting Slovak and Rumanian citizens ("Hungarians abroad"), thereby escalating international tensions. Since the economic crisis began, rightwing extremists have enhanced their electoral successes in Hungary by accentuating ethnic chauvinist policy. According to recent opinion polls, nearly half of the Hungarian population approve of the fact that their country will also be represented in Brussels by three rightwing extremists. Their organizations are appealing to Berlin, to support their ethnic radicalization.


http://britanniaradio.blogspot.com/2009/07/german-ethnic-model-i-20090623.html

[Stormz_STA]

http://britanniaradio.blogspot.com/2009/07/german-ethnic-model-i-20090623.html

Isn't this article written by a blogger? If so then this is not really objective journalism if you ask me. Bloggers always seem to have some kind of agenda they're pushing and objectivism isn't always their virtue.

[omghihi]

Anyhow, imagine the consequences if these extremists would get what their main objective is:

well it isn't nice dismembering a country like that, now is it :i

[Telmar]

That the majority of Hungarians in Slovakia is significant; making up 10% of the total population. The problem, however, is that they are demanding more and more, and are successful at doing so. In many of the southern regions the public schooling system has been ''Hungarinized'' so to speak.

They have not "hungarized" the public schooling system. Hungarian is used in some southern regions since a long long time. However, the present government is trying to change it, and it proves difficult. Not to mention that Slovakia must respect the rights of minorities to be in the EU.
The Hungarian party has also governed in Slovakia's right wing coalition between 2002 and 2006 (maybe before but not sure) and has obtained some advantages from it.

Apart from private schooling, I cannot see what country would allow that, in Germany or the Netherlands you will not find public schools were respectively German and Dutch are not the official language. They demand their books to be in Hungarian. When the names on maps in a geography book were printed in Slovak, the reaction was outrageous.

Who is the "they" you talk about? The Hungarians are not all aligned. The SMK (Hungarian party) has somewhat shifted towards more autonomy demands but has lost because of that many voters.

Not to mention that its illustrious former leader Bela Bugar has left the SMK to form "bridge", a centre-right party, which he co-runs with a Slovak. I can foresee it as very succesful in the coming elections given the high number of Slovaks who voted for the SMK while Bugar (no charges of corruption, a real decency...) was leading it.


Anyways, I am pretty sure that in Spain it's possible to study in Bask or Catalan. I agree however that language differences really divides a nation. "Unfortunately" it is no longer possible to use force on people to make them follow the official language of the country.

However, the major problem lies within the Hungarian government. They are actively contributing to this nationalistic sentiment beyond its borders and stimulating it. As I've stated, they are good at lobbying and spreading propaganda, making Slovaks fearful of the growing influence that Hungary seems to enjoy.

I agree on this part up to a point since the Hungarian government did outlaw the "Garda".


What I say (when asked) about this to my Slovak friends is not to throw into the group of guys who come from Hungary and march in uniforms on the parking of a Slovak supermarket with the Hungarians who are living here and do not approve of this at all.

Although I am not of Central European decent myself, I've lived there for quite some time and can assure you that Hungarians are among the most nationalistic extremists in Europe. Most countries have experienced enough suffering to understand what this form of nationalism can lead to, Hungarians not.

Hungary has lost all of its possessions after WWI. It's a good recipe for extremism. Don't forget Austria as a very "interesting" nation as well.

Anyhow, imagine the consequences if these extremists would get what their main objective is:

I think your map is a little big. They don't want a border with Poland.



Sorry for the OT.

[Telmar]

Never mind

[Telmar]

Problem is never with ordinary people. Neither your Hungarian nor your Slovakian everyday folk is interested in big-time politics, or hatred. Problem is, however that some short-sighted politicians use traditional xenophobic panels to inflame its voters - because they are inadept in - for example - handling economic crises. These politicians are using nationalistic voices for their own ends - and for their own ends only. Those believing them in that any problem could be solved by naming an enemy are doomed.

Im hungarian, and when on 19th of january, 2006 a Slovakian Air Force An-24 troop carrier plane crashed in Hungary, we all rushed there to see what could we help. And when we stand honour guard alongside our Slovakian comrades to commemorate those Slovakian comrades who fell in the line of duty (the plane came from KFOR Kosovo) I know that We all belong to a proud free democratic world and the same Alliance, and the same Union.

And where were those forming Gárda's, making prejudicating language laws, playing with nationalistic cards?

Im telling You - nowhere in the vicinity. I propose ending this flame-war between Hungarians and Slovakians once and for all.

Anyone agrees, post it here.

Extremists always play a populistic card. It has always been easier to unite people against something rather than for something.

I agree with you, although it does not change much since I am (not yet) Slovak. Don't think we were yet in a flame war though. I've seen much worse on ....threads and ....threads, not to mention .....threads.:)

[Murus]

Korvinag: you are right!

[gazell]

So a Fascist granny gets carried away from an illegal demonstration, what no blood shed? no pictures of the Police beating her sorry ass with clubs?:roll:

You open admiration for a far right group is very clear though, no matter how you try to hide itp-)

Connaught Ranger.

Oh, the problem of us talking. You are prejudiced. Fascist granny. ROFL. You would like to beat her up too, to blood or what is it?p-)

I have no admiration for them, what I'm talking is facts, that for some it is the last hope, which is horrible, but the fact that they see no better is the sin of the government. For the very reason, some more open-minded are going to draw pr&cks on their voting card or just as current 40% won't vote. Or don't know, whom to vote for.

And I do condemn these actions, you can misinterpret that as you like.

However, people have a right to peaceful demonstration. You do not arrest them for wearing black and white, whether that's the guardists, the nuns, the rabbis, the chimney sweepers, etc. If they don't hurt anybody, they can demonstrate. If you are joyfull, that they got arrested for that, you are rather dictatorial and do not appriciate the law and human rights, or misunderstanding something.

[gazell]

Good news, very good news.

Not that it really matters, because the Hungarian government is a bunch of dangerous extremists anyway. For quite some time now they have been trying to strengthen their sphere of influence in Slovakia. Many Hungarians don't recognize Slovakia as sovereign country and would support annexation. Obviously, they lack the political power to ever attempt so.


You are smoking something, brainwashed, illusional for any other reason or a combination of any of those, man. Why all this 'nacionalistic' - I have to emphasize that, there is nothing wrong with a healthy national feeling in my book, moreover, might well be needed for survival - movement gets rather popular, is that people feel banned in their own country for being Hungarian.

There is nothing of the sort you describe in reality bar a few nutjobs.

However, Slovakia has been run for years by a government, including sheovinist, hungarophob elements, that's where your glasses might be coming from. Not even nationalistic parties are at all present in the Hungarian parliament even. Big, big difference.


The rest of your comments, really, just damn ignorant mostly, to comment on.

Chill out, read some varied news and learn history.:)

[Connaught Ranger]

However, people have a right to peaceful demonstration.However, we in the real world know how quickly these demonstrators can turn into rabid, stone throwing idiots when they dont get what they want, and at the end of the day when asked to move by the Police, you do that, either under your own power, or face being forcibly removed.
Funny how many just happened to have their own gas-masks with them isnt it?


Connaught Ranger.p-)

[gazell]

However, we in the real world know how quickly these demonstrators can turn into rabid, stone throwing idiots when they dont get what they want, and at the end of the day when asked to move by the Police, you do that, either under your own power, or face being forcibly removed.

I know. The interesting thing is here, that neither in 2006 nor now these individuals have been bothered by the police.p-)
Funny how many just happened to have their own gas-masks with them isnt it?


Connaught Ranger.p-)

Yes, in some bits it looks even like arranged for the camera, I agree, but I'm quite unsure it was. They - guard and goverment are interested in working for the same goal of weekening the FIDESZ - so might accidentally look like working together.

[RIPTIDE]

Lets not forget the K.K.K. and the Far Right White Supremacist nut-jobs such as the Aryan Nation:roll:
Thats included in "hate groups" and "militias".


Aside, IN fairness, the right to associate should be a staple of any democracy. And its a right in most places unless they are deemed violent organisations.

[gazell]

Just for Empulse.


http://www.cducsu.eu/content/view/5997/4/