How will laser weapons be used in the future?

[drake88]

It seems that lasers are on the verge of being successfully weaponized. I know that's probably been true for a while now, but it does seem that multiple R&D programs are succeeding from multiple angles. And the rocket, artillery, mortar threat seems to be growing. That threat will become much more urgent as precision weapons become more common.

We (America) have megawatt scale chemical lasers for the ABL and Advanced Tactical Laser, but I'm more interested in the lower power solid state, FEL, and fiber lasers.

I know both Textron and Northrop Grumman have demoed a 100 kw+ solid state laser in the past year. I think the weight is in the range of 2,000 lbs. Gizmodo did a story a few months back on the FireStrike laser. (All my info is open source from simple Googling.)

So, my question is, assuming at some point in the near future (2020?) we have a 2,000 lb 100 kw+ solid state laser ... how will they be used?

(Actually, my first question is whether that's powerful enough for a serious weapon. I've also seen 400 kw quoted as the minimum for a real world C-RAM weapon.)

Assuming a powerful enough laser to work for the C-RAM mission, how will they be employed? Will every ship in the fleet have one for self-defense? I've seen other tests where they shot down some UAVs (that was the Laser Avenger from Boeing and was only 2 kw).

Presumably different threats will require different power levels. No idea how much would be need to take out, say missiles or swarming boats. The ABL is meant for missiles and is megawatt, so missiles are presumably a megawatt threat -- although that's probably more a range issue.

Back to my point. It looks like in the near future we'll have relatively low weight solid state lasers in the 100 kw+ range, I'm wondering how the Navy, Army, and Air Force will respond. It would also seem like a perfect defense for civilian airports.

Also, obviously this isn't just an American issue. Israel probably faces the most immediate need since they get regular rocket attacks.

Anyway, I'd read a bunch of laser stories in the news lately and had lasers on the brain. I hope they don't stay the permanent weapon of the future. Thanks in advance for any feedback.

[Hippo]

pew pew pew pew pew pew pew

/thread

[LongShot]

how will they be used?


As weapons...........?


In all seriousness, the pros V. cons of employing an energy based weapon tend to side with the cons. They are (and will be) vulnerable to EMP, will tend to be unwieldy, not easily portable and contain fragile components for the foreseeable future.

[ortizoner]

Anyone of us that has played any decent sci-fi FPS probably prefers to used projectile weapons over energy based weapons such as a lazer gun. Gosh that really sounded nerdy, almost dont want to post...

[sepheronx]

Well, seeing is how the laser based weapon systems employed by Boeing are on the list to be scrapped, and seeing as how the Soviets in the 70's had prototypes of both airborne and naval laser systems that did not go further then prototype, I do not see laser systems being even closely used as weapons in a decent amount force in a long while.

[bikewrench]

Pork barrel money pit...
but a cool pork barrel money pit.

[ARGAR FORKBEARD]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=brown%20laser

[JRT]

So far the most successful designs have been chemical lasers, which in turn don't seem to be feasible. A big issue is the toxic chemicals they incorporate, they certainly are an environmental hazard.

Another issue with any laser is that they suffer from weather conditions far more than projectile weapons. Clouds, rain, snowfall seriously limit their usage or may prevent it entirely. A weapon that can be used only in the sunshine is practical only to a certain extent. I am not sure if simply increasing power is the solution for this.

Airborne Laser requires vast amounts of energy because it is designed to be fired at ranges of several hundred kilometres.

[Kilgor]

There are solid state electrical lasers coming online that will change things. Far different to the types produced in the 70s which required chemicals and other limitations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIRESTRIKE

[ggk]

So, my question is, assuming at some point in the near future (2020?) we have a 2,000 lb 100 kw+ solid state laser ... how will they be used?

Laser operator: sir intruder at sector 6
commander:kill em.
Laser operator:yes sir.

zzzzzap

Laser operator:done

[asch]

already done. had trial runs in 080808 war.
http://keep4u.ru/imgs/b/2009/07/06/1b/1bcc048b888a2c4933c01c324c98085d.jpg

[drake88]

There are solid state electrical lasers coming online that will change things. Far different to the types produced in the 70s which required chemicals and other limitations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIRESTRIKE

Right, the FireStrike is the kind of solid state laser I was thinking of. They've already passed 100 kw. I think their current design can scale to about 125 kw.

I went back and found some of the program launch announcements back in 2000-2001. At the time solid state lasers were in the 10 kw range. The researchers said they thought new breakthroughs meant they could hit 25 kw, then 100 kw in 5-10 years. And they seem to have done just that. Pretty impressive.

From what I've read the lasers beams need to be held on target for significant lengths of times. Up to 5 seconds in some cases, with the dwell time going up the farther out the target.

Does that mean 100 kw lasers aren't a competitor to the active protection systems for tanks and planes? It sounds like an RPG threat strikes too quickly to be shot down by 100 kw lasers.

My mental image was the instantaneous zap, but the more I read it looks more like a multi-second burn.

Also, not to get gruesome, but any idea what a 100 kw laser would do to a person? I read somewhere else that the Advanced Tactical Laser (a chemical laser) could put the equivalent of a blow torch on a 4 inch circle on a target. The ATL is more powerful than 100 kw solid state lasers.

But even a blow torch wouldn't kill a person, right? They'd jump out of the way once the pain hit. They'd be badly burnt, of course. I assume a person would wriggle out of the way within 1/4 to 1/2 a second. Maybe a blowtorch does more damage in a 1/4 second than I realize.

None of the stories I've read directly discuss the effectiveness of actually zapping people, although a few made vague references to anti-personnel uses or use as a 10 km airborne sniper. But these aren't magical insta-kill death rays, right? My impression was that it'd be like all of a sudden somebody put a blowtorch on a 4 inch spot on your body. I guess they could target your neck or eyes or something. But if it just hit and arm or leg, or a major muscle group, then you'd wriggle out of the way and survive, no?

[DPM_Sheep]

Depending on the strength and size of the beam, it'll probably critically wound you or kill you outright, and it would be pretty grusome.

Light penetrates flesh much better than flame does. You would pretty much have the target region of you anatomy turned into instant, freshly cooked hamburger.

[Gerry301]

Well, seeing is how the laser based weapon systems employed by Boeing are on the list to be scrapped, and seeing as how the Soviets in the 70's had prototypes of both airborne and naval laser systems that did not go further then prototype, I do not see laser systems being even closely used as weapons in a decent amount force in a long while.

"The Soviets in the 70s had prototypes, both naval and air", makes it sound as if the Soviets actually had something viable. Its much like claiming a roman candle was the same as an atlas V rocket, just never developed.

As far as being used as a weapon the ABL has shown in recent tests that it works, and works well. But it is a very expensive system, and would probobly not be fielded. But the airborne system would be less vulnerable to weather depending on the altitude its would operate at.

One of the biggest advances came in the use of adaptive mirrors that would account for atmospheric distortion. Power and range of the laser was increased by over 400%.

I think the army also has a ground laser called THEL that has shown the capability to shoot down incoming artillory (morters and howitzer) shells. You tube has some vids on it. Weather may have more of an effect on ground systems tho'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LThD0FMvTFU

All in all the advancments made in developing a military grade capability have been great. And many problems solved, however it has been a platform for experimentation and developement for future weapons rather than something to be fielded today.

Cancellation of the program just means it will be put to the side as money will be used elsewhere in a shrinking military budget.

[JRT]

I think the army also has a ground laser called THEL that has shown the capability to shoot down incoming artillory (morters and howitzer) shells. You tube has some vids on it. Weather may have more of an effect on ground systems tho'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LThD0FMvTFU

All in all the advancments made in developing a military grade capability have been great. And many problems solved, however it has been a platform for experimentation and developement for future weapons rather than something to be fielded today.

Cancellation of the program just means it will be put to the side as money will be used elsewhere in a shrinking military budget.

THEL (MTHEL, Skyguard) was supposed to be Israel's anti-missile solution. Israelis weren't however too keen on purchasing a system that pollutes it's surroundings with chemicals, which cannot fire in bad weather and which has a smallish range. The system however works, and is indeed a basis for future developments.

[tea drinker]

Followed Gerry's link and founf this interesting vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVxZ9IHTH2E&feature=related

Edit, you can see some gas emerging from the system too.

[drake88]

The liquid lasers seem, at this point, an unlikely candidate for anything other than big airborne missile defense systems. I think the cost of a single shot is in the $8-10k range. Not very economical for shooting down artillery and small rockets. But pretty good for knocking down North Korean or Iranian long range missiles.

The 100 kw solid state lasers claim the cost per shot will be under $1. At that cost the C-RAM mission becomes feasible.

I think it's the economics more than anything that are holding back chemical lasers. Handling dangerous chemicals isn't that big a deal. I mean jet fuel is noxious and dangerous but we manage that pretty easily.

Take the example of Israel. Estimates I've seen say Hezbollah has some 30,000 cheap rockets. So Israel needs something that can be fired hundreds of times a day -- without bankrupting their country.

Then there's the cost of the system, manpower to use it, etc. I've no idea what the actual cost of the 100kw solid state lasers will be. I remember reading the liquid lasers like MTHEL are in the $30-40 million range -- which also limits their utility.

Here's a Danger room article (http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/03/next-steps-to-l/) that quotes an Army official saying he hopes to get a 100 kw solid state laser truck down to $15-$20 million per laser truck. That's for the Army's HELTD (High Energy Laser Tech Demo).

Sounds like a lot. Could you outfit every base and outpost with one at that price?

[JRT]

Take the example of Israel. Estimates I've seen say Hezbollah has some 30,000 cheap rockets. So Israel needs something that can be fired hundreds of times a day -- without bankrupting their country.


Which is the reason they've gone with the Iron Dome and David's Sling systems that incorporate cheap missiles, accordind to manufacturers a single shot costs around $3000. Which is a lot better than losing a $100 000 home to a rocket.

The Israeli system also includes a threat evaluation software that calculates the trajectories and decide which rockets should be shot down and which can be let to land and explode in safe areas, so not every rocket needs to be intercepted and money is saved.

[kongman]

as long as they make one i can fit on my death start im good .................

[Hippo]

as long as they make one i can fit on my death start im good .................

HAHA OH WOW

facepalm.png

[kongman]

HAHA OH WOW

facepalm.png


ya /facepalm myself

[ayanami_tard]

i don't have any trust with laser weapon other than as a guidance system

we'll stick with kinetic projectile weaponry to kill people(or alien,humanoid,zergling,ZAFT invaders,you name it) for centuries to come

[Gerry301]

i don't have any trust with laser weapon other than as a guidance system

we'll stick with kinetic projectile weaponry to kill people(or alien,humanoid,zergling,ZAFT invaders,you name it) for centuries to come

Too late. Directed energy in many forms now complement any 5th generation fighter and perhaps some fourth. Imagine an F-22 useing AESA radar to detect an enemy fighter, finds one, locks on, and sends a micrwave directed energy pulse and fries all the electronics on the fighter while a second F-22 fires an AMMRAMM120D at long range. A third F-22 is locked onto the only radar guided missle that the enemy was able to launch and fries the guidence system on the missle with a microwave pulse.

[drake88]

Too late. Directed energy in many forms now complement any 5th generation fighter and perhaps some fourth. Imagine an F-22 useing AESA radar to detect an enemy fighter, finds one, locks on, and sends a micrwave directed energy pulse and fries all the electronics on the fighter while a second F-22 fires an AMMRAMM120D at long range. A third F-22 is locked onto the only radar guided missle that the enemy was able to launch and fries the guidence system on the missle with a microwave pulse.


Are we sure we have that capability? I've seen rumors about that for AESA but nothing more. I know there are High Power Microwave R&D projects, but are you saying the F-22 already has that ability?

[Zarak]

Tachyon lasers are the best but its hard to fit them on my Abaddon. :|

[GazB]

Too late. Directed energy in many forms now complement any 5th generation fighter and perhaps some fourth. Imagine an F-22 useing AESA radar to detect an enemy fighter, finds one, locks on, and sends a micrwave directed energy pulse and fries all the electronics on the fighter while a second F-22 fires an AMMRAMM120D at long range. A third F-22 is locked onto the only radar guided missle that the enemy was able to launch and fries the guidence system on the missle with a microwave pulse.

Presuming of course the target aircraft is not hardened to protect from external interference... and that all three F-22s are prepared to give up their position by making such unstealthy actions...
Also assuming it is true then the ground based OTH phased array radars the Russians use for tracking incoming ICBMs suddenly become WMDs for bringing down aircraft on a whim.

I read an article a few years ago about how lasers could be used for open heart surgery. The condition that is treated is where the volume inside the heart is diminished so the heart has trouble pumping a good amount of blood per pump. The procedure consists of firing a laser through the outer wall of the heart. The laser slices cleanly though the outer surface of the heart muscle which reseals itself through cauterisation. The inner part of the muscle stretches which leaves a cavity. The blood inside the pumping area is rapidly heated by the laser which can't pass through the blood because it is not optically clear to the laser. The very short burst means a quick clean incision through the wall and a minor increase in temperature of the blood and no other damage. As a weapon against a human target you would basically need to cut through important parts, like severing the head or cutting into the chest. There would be little external bleeding as the wounds would self cauterise. The laser could be IR or UV in frequency and completely invisible. Clean razor blade like cuts would just suddenly appear on the target cutting through flesh and bone and clothing. Don't really think it sounds like an improvement on a bomb really.

[Gerry301]

Are we sure we have that capability? I've seen rumors about that for AESA but nothing more. I know there are High Power Microwave R&D projects, but are you saying the F-22 already has that ability?

No, I am not sure and probobly got ahead of myself. I too have read about projects in the works. Following is from Popular mechanics June 2009:

http://media.popularmechanics.com/images/microwave-weapons-470-b0609.jpg
US warplanes, like this F-15C, carry active electronically scanned radar arrays in their noses that can be used as electronic warfare weapons. (Photograph by Boeing)

+ High-Energy Research and Applications Program: The Air Force last year began the $75 million HERA program to research aerial and ground-based HPM weapons. Researchers will focus on zappers that can generate peak power in the multi-gigawatt range and devices emitting on narrow- and wide-band microwave loads.

+ Active Electronically Scanned Array Radar: AESA radars are made to scan (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/4319720.html#) the horizon for threats. However, if radio energy is concentrated on one spot, the radar can scramble the electronics of targets. U.S. warplanes currently carry the AESA radar, but officials do not speak publicly about their electronic warfare capabilities.

+ Active Denial System: The ADS system, mounted on a Humvee, focuses a high-power, 95-GHz microwave beam at a target using a planar array antenna. The microwave energy penetrates up to 0.5 mm into human skin, producing an intolerable heating sensation but, designers say, no permanent damage. The Navy is looking into a similar system for ships.