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millhouse
07-24-2003, 04:17 AM
What is the most effect sight for the M4? Ive heard of SOCOM buying all of EOTECH's stock, and of Trijicon ACOG, Aimpoint, etc. What is best for combat situations which require firing on the go?

SABER 2-3
07-24-2003, 05:17 AM
What is the most effect sight for the M4? Ive heard of SOCOM buying all of EOTECH's stock, and of Trijicon ACOG, Aimpoint, etc. What is best for combat situations which require firing on the go?

The best sight for the M-4 is the one that is built into the carry handle and on the barrel right in front of the handguards. Its totally amazing w/ elevation, windage controls; it has a two posistion peep sight (1 for long range/1 for up close) and its front sight adjusts for all ranges.

It also does a stellar job "on the go" due to its perfect alignment w/ the rifle. The best part: no outside power source and it rarely gets knocked off.

There is a drawback though-it requires taking your ass to the range on a regular basis to perfect. Oh well, nothings perfect, huh.

Beloved Shiv
07-24-2003, 10:47 AM
'Love it Saber.

I recall reading range-results on how improved target acquisition and "reflexive" aiming improve accuracy for even long-time shooters.

But gadgets don't make the shooter. Tack on all the lasers and wiz-bangs, if you can't consistenly stroke that shot with the front sight stable, that $900 ACOG don't help.

As far as what's good - Militaryphotos.net has at least a couple photos of active operators with Aimpoints and ACOGs. I'd assume from the extent of their usage there's a facet of quality in both.

USAF G
07-24-2003, 12:37 PM
I agree with Saber, iron sights always work. For you gear heads out there, the PJs are using the Trijicon Reflex sights on their M4s, for the most part (some times they use the ACOG). They like the fact that they require no batteries and are very hard to break (important if you spend a lot of time jumping out of helicopters and planes). p-) G

millhouse
07-24-2003, 12:55 PM
I'm just curious, anyone have photos of the view from each of the sights?

How does a soldier get a hold of these sights - do they come in a kit? The standard issue SOPMOD kits include a reflex or an ACOG scope, correct?

Beloved Shiv
07-24-2003, 04:52 PM
Fer sure, Dude - http://www.trijicon-inc.com/user/parts/products1.cfm?PartID=142

And - http://www.aimpoint.com/3d/3d.htm

Interestingly - the reticle representation differs slightly in the printed brochure Trijicon supplies for the milspec ACOG. Bushmaster's printed catalog also has a printed representation, differing significantly but with a bullet drop compensator that appears quite authentic.

I'll try to dig them out and scan 'em if you're interested.

Chris196
07-24-2003, 06:41 PM
The Trijicon Reflex is being almost entirely phased out. It has too many issues with the Tritium powered reticle washing out in bright sunlight and when used with powerful flashlights inside rooms. It also has fogging issues.

The Eotech is an excellent CQB sight. The large 65moa reticle is distracting for me beyond room length, and I dont like the push button controls.

The newest models of the Aimpoint M68 are outstanding. The 4moa dot works well for CQB as well as shots out to 300yds. The battery life is astounding compared to any other red dot reflex sight on the market. It also has more mounting options. Turning on the dot or adjusting its brightness is much easier than others, simply roll the adjustment knob with the palm of your hand. Its my prefered battery powered optic.

The Trijicon ACOG NSN is still the most issued of the ACOG models. Its an excellent combat optic. The ACOGs are the most durable scope out there. For me personally, I find the ranging reticle too busy.

The TA31F ACOG saw use with the Marines on top of M16A4s in Iraq. The TA31 models with Bindon Aiming Concept are becoming the prefered ACOG for those with the choice. It allows excellent long range ability, while at the same time the BAC allows both eyes open close range speed.

You will see the compact ACOGs in use occassionally, as well as the old Colt 4x.

Out of the ones I mentioned, Id take the Aimpoint or the TA31, mounted directly to the flat top reciever, with and ARMS 40 back up iron sight.

rob
07-24-2003, 10:01 PM
"there is nothing more eligant then an iron sight."
-ussocom drill instructer

Chris196
07-25-2003, 02:51 AM
The vast majority of the United States military, including the units that have the choice of just about any equipment they want, disagree with that concept. The current generation of optics allow you to hit faster and at farther ranges with complete reliability.

Dont fear the new technology.

rob
07-25-2003, 02:56 AM
but the iron sight will work in any conditions. scopes fog, and break much easier. you notice that almost all set ups of the m4 have flip up sights. some even have the normal sights even though they will block some of the scope.

optic sights are not the answer, good training and practice is.

millhouse
07-25-2003, 03:08 AM
I agree. Any tips on targeting on the move? How does one train to shoot while moving? It seems like the hardest thing to do in the midst of battle.

Chris196
07-25-2003, 03:18 AM
It is. Shooting on the move is a last resort. It takes some good professional instruction and a lot of practice to become proficient at it to the point where you can count on your shots hitting where you want them to.

We agree to disagree on optics Rob ;)

The Aimpoint and Eotech allow so much faster and more instinctive shooting at close range that irons dont even compare. In a dim light, do you really want to be searching for your front sight, or do you want a bright red aiming point?

Optics like the ACOG gather light and allow much more target identification at night and in dim lighting conditions.

Optics dont replace marksmanship, they enhance it. The basics are still required to make hits.

Royal
07-25-2003, 05:01 AM
Optics dont replace marksmanship, they enhance it. The basics are still required to make hits.

Very true - as long as the basics are still taught.

A story (pull up a sandbag): Many years ago the UK used the L1A1 and taught recruits the principles of marksamanship. Then the L85 was trialed - standards/results were massively higher. It was introduced into service (with people taught on the L1A1) and standards in annual tests jumped. A few years passed. Standards plummeted - recruits were no longer being taught properly beacuse it was so easy to use optics (and because the length of training was cut to save money). This is a problem that is only now being addressed in the UK, 15 years on.

Don't forget the basics...

SABER 2-3
07-25-2003, 10:20 AM
CHRIS196,
Where are you hearing that the REFLEX sights are being phased out?
Almost every one at my office has or has requested one. As for wash-out, nobody here has that problem, the polarized lens cover is just for that purpose.

As for sights YES I do use optics (REFLEX) but it is (as are most around here) mounted on my carry handle so that I still have full use of my iron sights (that are lumunous by the way) and all of the shooters here must qualify w/ zero optical enhancement.

Shooting on the move? Grab your rifle and gear and move to the road marked "LIVE FIRE RANGES AHEAD-CONTACT RANGE CONTROL" if you get lost just shout were already on line, living there.

Beloved Shiv
07-25-2003, 11:00 AM
The vast majority of the United States military, including the units that have the choice of just about any equipment they want, disagree with that concept. The current generation of optics allow you to hit faster and at farther ranges with complete reliability.

Dont fear the new technology.

Any active jarheads present on this board to back up this statement? I ask specifically about Marines' preference and training impetus for two reasons. Firstly, because I'm hard-pressed to acknowledge "vast majority" as solid argument. It tends to define just numbers - not actual proof and often only reports popularity/fashion. Secondly, the USMC ostensibly requires even pilots to qualify as riflemen periodically - a shootist's service. I'm hearing (and have only heard, thus now asking further) even MEUSOC prefer iron sights, with maybe white lights, for CQB / MOUT. Any corroboration or counter is appreciated.

'Don't mean to come after you Chris. I maintain eyes-open optics are no panacea, but myself I've had an Optima installed on my Glock and I'm trying to hunt down an older Meprolight with the amber delta for my USC. Just getting curious after mulling over this topic.

rob
07-25-2003, 02:27 PM
i never said scopes arent nice it is just good to have something that will always work(iron sight) to fall back on if you damage your red dot or what ever.

Chris196
07-25-2003, 03:57 PM
The Marines are transitioning to optics much slower than the rest of the military. It would be safe to say that majority of the Marines rifles are still iron sighted. However, if you had a chance to read the Marine Corps System Command after action report from Iraq, the feed back from the troops testing the Trijicon TA31 ACOG in Iraq was quite positive. The Aimpoint and the ACOG NSN are actually in heavy use with Force Recon units.

And I absolutely agree that any optic equiped rifle should have back up iron sights (BUIS). Some units equiped with Aimpoints were slow to get BUIS for their rifles, and opted to mount them on thier RAS forearms rather than give up having front and rear irons. This appears to be changing, either by issue, or by troops aquiring them out of pocket.

Back up irons from KAC, ARMS, GG&G and LMT can be counted on as a servicable safety net with optics equiped rifles.

Shiv, just to add to the confusion of the issue...I wouldnt own an optic equiped pistol. Theres where I stick to irons.

Chops
07-25-2003, 10:31 PM
"if you get lost just shout were already on line, living there"

I feel safer already...

rgds

Chop Chop

Chris196
07-26-2003, 12:34 AM
CHRIS196,
Where are you hearing that the REFLEX sights are being phased out?
Almost every one at my office has or has requested one. As for wash-out, nobody here has that problem, the polarized lens cover is just for that purpose.

As for sights YES I do use optics (REFLEX) but it is (as are most around here) mounted on my carry handle so that I still have full use of my iron sights (that are lumunous by the way) and all of the shooters here must qualify w/ zero optical enhancement.

Shooting on the move? Grab your rifle and gear and move to the road marked "LIVE FIRE RANGES AHEAD-CONTACT RANGE CONTROL" if you get lost just shout were already on line, living there.

The reflex is being phased out of the next SOPMOD package. Heres a big clue on the Reflex. Why dont you go shoot it at dusk and see if you can make out your target past 50 yards with the blue tint the lense has. Then take it out to a parking lot, or anywhere for that matter that has orange sodium street lights. Good luck finding the reticle. Speak to Pat Rogers over at www.tacticalforums.com an ask him about Force Recon's Experience with the Reflex. The polarizing filter is not going to address wash out or fogging.

millhouse
07-26-2003, 01:17 AM
When shooting on the move, is it still the same steps as shooting to kill standing still? Two shots to the center mass, one to the head? Or are soldiers trained to take what they can get? I have seen many training excercises in which they fire three shots, then start closing in on the target, so I assume that its the same deal.

ibstolidude
07-26-2003, 02:20 AM
sure people practice on pie plate tins, targets and ballons; but everyone I know was taught to shoot them till they drop - then kill em; ask around different people - different experiences I guess.


or maybe that was halo?

SABER 2-3
07-26-2003, 02:27 AM
DITTO.

wildbill542
01-31-2006, 01:56 AM
I am thinking about getting onne for my SOCOM buid and who has the best price on it?

ABNINF
01-31-2006, 07:29 AM
I'm just curious, anyone have photos of the view from each of the sights?


Aimpoint:
http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/5875/10002071im.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

ACOG:
http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/1420/10002163br.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Argyll
01-31-2006, 09:25 AM
Another 3 year old topic revived!!

Uncle Sam
01-31-2006, 10:25 AM
Another 3 year old topic revived!!

:cantbeli: Why someone would go digging this far back is beyond me...


As ed316 would say...."*coughwildbill542cough*"

ABNINF
01-31-2006, 12:41 PM
lol, I didn't even look at the date

Anthony91
01-31-2006, 03:25 PM
Any active jarheads present on this board to back up this statement? I ask specifically about Marines' preference and training impetus for two reasons. Firstly, because I'm hard-pressed to acknowledge "vast majority" as solid argument. It tends to define just numbers - not actual proof and often only reports popularity/fashion. Secondly, the USMC ostensibly requires even pilots to qualify as riflemen periodically - a shootist's service. I'm hearing (and have only heard, thus now asking further) even MEUSOC prefer iron sights, with maybe white lights, for CQB / MOUT. Any corroboration or counter is appreciated.

'Don't mean to come after you Chris. I maintain eyes-open optics are no panacea, but myself I've had an Optima installed on my Glock and I'm trying to hunt down an older Meprolight with the amber delta for my USC. Just getting curious after mulling over this topic.

My cousin uses a Eo-Tech.....and he loves it.

akmarksman
02-04-2006, 02:45 PM
when I was doing contract work..we tired all of the optics..including the irons..
Heck..we took the bosses Ar-15(20"barrel) and mounted the aimpoint,the eotech,and the reflex..and on the gas port went the front sight with trit.
It was funny as hell when he grabbed his rifle..(ran out of room to mount the PVS14..)

back on topic..I used the EoTech..I like it.

ramy98
02-04-2006, 05:18 PM
when I was doing contract work..we tired all of the optics..including the irons..
Heck..we took the bosses Ar-15(20"barrel) and mounted the aimpoint,the eotech,and the reflex..and on the gas port went the front sight with trit.
It was funny as hell when he grabbed his rifle..(ran out of room to mount the PVS14..)

back on topic..I used the EoTech..I like it.

haha... stop embarassing yourself kid. I have read a few of your posts and they are lacking depth on the subject.

http://www.ontrackexploration.com/rl.gif

muede
02-13-2006, 10:44 AM
Another 3 year old topic revived!!
On most forums where theres adults and so on people actually lock up new topics and tell you to do a search.. in other words some people consider it bigger crime to have 10 topics about same subject rather than to dig up years old topic to ask or say something.

Regards.

dudski
11-23-2009, 11:35 AM
Hello..i have zero knowledge on gun sights when you have a m68 aimpoint attached to ur weapon does it automatically adjust distances?

Bro Jangles
11-23-2009, 11:59 AM
Hello..i have zero knowledge on gun sights when you have a m68 aimpoint attached to ur weapon does it automatically adjust distances?
what do you mean? aimpoints have a 4 moa dot.

dudski
11-23-2009, 12:43 PM
what do you mean? aimpoints have a 4 moa dot.

thats the prob i dont know what your talking about... does the sight have a rangefinder that adjusts distances or do you have to do it manually? thanks

Bro Jangles
11-23-2009, 12:48 PM
thats the prob i dont know what your talking about... does the sight have a rangefinder that adjusts distances or do you have to do it manually? thanksfrom Wiki. and no, the aimpoint doesnt do that.


Firearms

The arcminute is commonly found in the firearms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm) industry and literature, particularly that concerning the accuracy of rifles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle), though the industry tends to refer to it as minute of angle. It is popular because 1 MOA subtends (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtend) approximately one inch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inch) at 100 yards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yard), a traditional distance on target ranges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_range). A shooter can easily readjust their rifle scope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescopic_sight) by measuring the distance in inches the bullet hole is from the desired impact point, and adjusting the scope that many MOA in the same direction. Most target scopes designed for long distances are adjustable in quarter () or eighth (⅛) MOA "clicks". One eighth MOA is equal to approximately an eighth of an inch at 100 yards or one inch at 800 yards.
Calculating the physical equivalent group size equal to one minute of arc can be done using the equation: equivalent group size = tan(MOA/60) distance. In the example previously given and substituting 3600 inches for 100 yards, 3600 tan(1 MOA/60) inches = 1.0471975511966 inches.
In metric units (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_units) 1 MOA at 100 meters = 2.908 centimeters.
Sometimes, a firearm's accuracy will be measured in MOA. This simply means that under ideal conditions, the gun with certain ammunition is capable of producing a group of shots whose center points (center-to-center) fit into a circle, the average diameter of circles in several groups can be subtended by that amount of arc. (E.g.: a "1 MOA rifle" should be capable, under ideal conditions, of shooting an average 1-inch groups at 100 yards, a "2 MOA rifle" a average 2-inch groups at 100 yards, etc.) Some manufacturers such as Weatherby (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherby) and Cooper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooper_Firearms_of_Montana) offer actual guarantees of real-world MOA performance.
Rifle manufacturers and gun magazines often refer to this capability as "Sub-MOA", meaning it shoots under 1 MOA. This is typically a single group of 3 to 5 shots at 100 yards, or the average of several groups. If larger samples are taken, i.e. more shots per group, then group size typically increases.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minute_of_angle#cite_note-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minute_of_angle#cite_note-2)
For example mathematical statistical calculation yields the following accuracy for exactly the same rifle and ammunition combination (standard deviations of every shot from center is 1 MOA):



for 2-shot groups - 1.77 MOA
for 3-shot groups - 2.41 MOA
for 5-shot groups - 3.07 MOA
for 10-shot groups - 3.81 MOA
for 20-shot groups - 4.45 MOA
for 100-shot groups - 5.69 MOA

dudski
11-25-2009, 10:02 PM
from Wiki. and no, the aimpoint doesnt do that.

[/LIST]
yeah i read that page already im not very good at understanding these things but thanks anyways

p-)

kinney_bmx
11-25-2009, 10:24 PM
Two 3 year revivals in one thread ... awesome ... not

rhino
11-25-2009, 11:07 PM
yeah i read that page already im not very good at understanding these things but thanks anyways

p-)

no worries then, when you join the IDF they will explain eve ry thi ng