Israel orders 1st stealth F-35 squadron

[JGXL836]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1246443770618&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


Israel moved a step closer to receiving its first stealth fighter jets this week after the Israel Air Force submitted an official Letter of Request (LOR) to the Pentagon to purchase its first squadron of 25 F-35 stealth fighter jets.
Also known as the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), the F-35 will be one of the most-advanced fighter jets in the world and will enable Israel to phase out some of its older F-15 and F-16 models. The JSF is manufactured by Lockheed Martin.
Defense officials said that while the LOR was submitted this week, negotiations regarding the final price of the plane - estimated at around $100 million - as well as the integration of Israeli systems would continue.
The LOR will be followed by the signing of a contract in the beginning of 2010. The first aircraft are scheduled to arrive in Israel in 2014.
The first stage of the deal will be the purchase of 25 aircraft, which will compromise the first Israeli F-35 squadron. In a later stage, the IAF plans to purchase an additional 50 aircraft, some of them with vertical take-off and landing capabilities.
According to senior IDF officers, the Defense Ministry and the Pentagon have reached understandings on most of the major issues that have been at the core of disagreement between the sides.
Israeli demands have focused on three issues - the integration of Israeli-made electronic warfare systems into the plane, the integration of Israeli communication systems and the ability to independently maintain the plane in the event of a technical or structural problem.

(http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1246443770618&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

[tea drinker]

Of all the US partners, I'd say the Israeli are least likely to leak the secrets relating to F-35, or F-22.

But as with kids you need to be very careful what you give little Johnny 'cos Timmy will want it too.

[Boina verde]

Of all the US partners, I'd say the Israeli are least likely to leak the secrets relating to F-35, or F-22.


Tell that to the Chinese.

[Snoshi]

Tell that to the Chinese.

What US tech did Israel sell to China...?

Please cut the crap.

[mert_im64]

Of all the US partners, I'd say the Israeli are least likely to leak the secrets relating to F-35, or F-22.

But as with kids you need to be very careful what you give little Johnny 'cos Timmy will want it too.

Because of Israel can never be a threat to the USA. Also Russia,China,India and Turkey. And if Israel gives the advanced US technology to the other countries USA doesn't support Israels policies in the middle east so both countries doesn't want it!!!

[Player]

F-35 stealth fighter jets

How stealthy is the F-35?

[Eagle The Lightning]

Of all the US partners, I'd say the Israeli are least likely to leak the secrets relating to F-35, or F-22. I think the British are more likely to keep secrets about American planes in my opinion as the RAF are all ready testing the F35s :-D

[Boina verde]

What US tech did Israel sell to China...?

Please cut the crap.

They cooperate with the Chinese in the J-10, didn't? See the different countries that are in the program: the United Kingdom, Italy, the Netherlands, Canada, Turkey, Australia, Norway and Denmark. Are they more likely to leak the secrets relating to F-35 than Israel?

[kc135cc]

Israel least likely out of all the partner countries to sell information to the Chinese, I doubt it :cantbeli:. We might as well start working on something new....

[Blue_0]

What US tech did Israel sell to China...?

Please cut the crap.

According to allogations from very senior officials in the US government the Isrealies sold China design for the J-10, which is based off the Lavi fighter, which is inturn an upgraded F-16.

There was also allogations of wrong doing with radars if I remember right.

Nothing was ever pressed home because it all went political very quickly, but many independant observers believe Isreal is guilty of wrongdoing.

-- Bluelight.

[tea drinker]

They cooperate with the Chinese in the J-10, didn't? See the different countries that are in the program: the United Kingdom, Italy, the Netherlands, Canada, Turkey, Australia, Norway and Denmark. Are they more likely to leak the secrets relating to F-35 than Israel?
Didn't know that about J-10, but I was thinking infiltration rather than Gov selling the disks.

[Palmach]

According to allogations from very senior officials in the US government the Isrealies sold China design for the J-10, which is based off the Lavi fighter, which is inturn an upgraded F-16. .

Wrong on both accounts. Lavi is definitively not an "upgraded F16" - anyone claiming otherwise is obviously unfamiliar with the history of the project. Further, the Chinese deny that J-10 has any connection to the israeli design and point to similarities with J-9.

[JGXL836]

Lavi fighter, which is inturn an upgraded F-16.

:cantbeli:

[Panchito12]

What squadron is going to get the first samples?

[JGXL836]

What squadron is going to get the first samples?

No one knows.

I guess it would be a squadron with some older F-16A/B (116th, 140th) or a "wakened" squadron.

[LEGEND]

They cooperate with the Chinese in the J-10, didn't? See the different countries that are in the program: the United Kingdom, Italy, the Netherlands, Canada, Turkey, Australia, Norway and Denmark. Are they more likely to leak the secrets relating to F-35 than Israel?
In UK, someone from the defense department might just forget a notebook with the secrets in the subway... ;)

[Boina verde]

Yes, there is always that chance. lol

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I thought the budget for MilTech was a bit on the short side in Israel for the next couple of years I am surprised they are going ahead this early.

[crush6655]

They cooperate with the Chinese in the J-10, didn't? See the different countries that are in the program: the United Kingdom, Italy, the Netherlands, Canada, Turkey, Australia, Norway and Denmark. Are they more likely to leak the secrets relating to F-35 than Israel?
A Proof Israel gave any info about the Lavi to China ?

[kamaz]

the Lavi had nothing to do with F-16, nor was it an 'upgraded' F16. It was built up from the ground-up, including ground breaking Israeli avionics and weapons sensors.

I remember there was some controversy over the Phalcon Awacs sale to China a few years back but I'm not sure about the details. UK would definitely be the most trustworthy ally to sell equipment to, hands down.

[2495]

Israeli demands have focused on three issues - the integration of Israeli-made electronic warfare systems into the plane, the integration of Israeli communication systems and the ability to independently maintain the plane in the event of a technical or structural problem.

Israel should just go and build its own plane if all the systems inside the F-35 are not up to their specification.

Reading what they want added and plans for, is nothing but a thieves charter.

Chinas going to be slobbering at the bit in anticipation.

[spider1]

the Lavi had nothing to do with F-16, nor was it an 'upgraded' F16. It was built up from the ground-up, including ground breaking Israeli avionics and weapons sensors.

I remember there was some controversy over the Phalcon Awacs sale to China a few years back but I'm not sure about the details. UK would definitely be the most trustworthy ally to sell equipment to, hands down.
Lavi- if it was completed it would be the best plane in the world then and about the topic, i hope the F-35 is a good plane because i read that it has a limited stealth capability and you also need to carry less weapons if you use that.

[Herman the II]

First aircraft by 2014? Quite unlikely, only possible if some other customer gets his planes later...

[spider1]

First aircraft by 2014? Quite unlikely, only possible if some other customer gets his planes later...
Why not possible? Its too early you think?..The US military will get it in 2010 or 2011 if i dont have a mistake.

[Herman the II]

The complete production is already scheduled for delivery, there are no free spots.
So if the Israeli will get planes by 2014 somebody will have to wait longer. Considering the amount of money the partners have to pay that is somehow unlikely...

[Zarak]

Israel should just go and build its own plane if all the systems inside the F-35 are not up to their specification.

Reading what they want added and plans for, is nothing but a thieves charter.

Chinas going to be slobbering at the bit in anticipation.

How are they going to pay for it? They're 'buying' F-35s because it will cost them nothing.

[AlexMartin2]

Why not possible? Its too early you think?..The US military will get it in 2010 or 2011 if i dont have a mistake.

Australians ordered these planes much earlier, and they will start get it in 2016 if I'm not mistaken. How can Israel will get it sooner? They will pay more? :)

[ting]

What US tech did Israel sell to China...?

Please cut the crap.


Military sales to China

Over the years, the United States and Israel have regularly discussed Israel's sale of sensitive security equipment and technology to various countries, especially the People's Republic of China. U.S. administrations believe that such sales are potentially harmful to the security of U.S. forces in Asia.

In 2000, the United States persuaded Israel to cancel the sale of the Phalcon, an advanced, airborne early-warning system, to China. In 2005, the U.S. Department of Defense was angered by Israel's agreement to upgrade Harpy Killer unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) that it sold to China in 1999. China tested the weapon over the Taiwan Strait in 2004. The Department suspended technological cooperation with the Israeli Air Force on the future F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) aircraft as well as several other cooperative programs, held up shipments of some military equipment, and refused to communicate with Israeli Defense Ministry Director, General Amos Yaron, whom Pentagon officials believe misled them about the Harpy deal. According to a reputable Israeli military journalist, the U.S. Department of Defense demanded details of 60 Israeli deals with China, an examination of Israel's security equipment supervision system, and a memorandum of understanding about arms sales to prevent future difficulties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_–_United_States_relations#Military_sales_to_China

I think he was thinking of this. I think a sale to the Israelis carries the most risk. I'm sure you don't agree.p-)

[Excalibur]

How are they going to pay for it? They're 'buying' F-35s because it will cost them nothing.
they could go for joint development with india and russia.

[Zarak]

they could go for joint development with india and russia.

Joint development of a new aircraft costing billions of dollars and then paying however much per unit < Free aircraft

You're pretty much in fantasy land though. =p

[ting]

First aircraft by 2014? Quite unlikely, only possible if some other customer gets his planes later...
I think the US would give up some of their slots.


The complete production is already scheduled for delivery, there are no free spots.
So if the Israeli will get planes by 2014 somebody will have to wait longer. Considering the amount of money the partners have to pay that is somehow unlikely...

They can get them at that date, but the price is much higher.


Australians ordered these planes much earlier, and they will start get it in 2016 if I'm not mistaken. How can Israel will get it sooner? They will pay more? :)

Probably they will get from the US allotment and pay more due to the high price for early delivery.

[am39exocet]

buy F16 block 60 is enough.....

[2495]

Theres alot of partners who put in alot of money for the F-35, and to see Israel bitching and moaning its way to early delivery is sickening.

As for all the 'want want want' demands like little children, they should be slapped down and told to shut up.

[Russianlynxy]

Wrong on both accounts. Lavi is definitively not an "upgraded F16" - anyone claiming otherwise is obviously unfamiliar with the history of the project. Further, the Chinese deny that J-10 has any connection to the israeli design and point to similarities with J-9.

And you expect anyone to believe them? Honestly. what has China ever innovated lets say... the military sphere. Even their J-10s fly on ripped-off Russian Ll'ulka engines.

Almost every piece of military hardware that China has is a replication of some other model somewhere in the world. I won't even go into cars...

If the F35 turns out to be a success in the end... no doubt China will rip it. J-13? lol

[Zarak]

Theres alot of partners who put in alot of money for the F-35, and to see Israel bitching and moaning its way to early delivery is sickening.

As for all the 'want want want' demands like little children, they should be slapped down and told to shut up.

Its even more sickening when one considers that it will most likely be entirely financed through foreign military aid. So the US Air Force (or another, paying, country) will be forced to wait that much longer so the American government can give away aircraft at its own cost.

[Soldat_Américain]

They should buy F-22s...keeping the production line open.

[spider1]

Theres alot of partners who put in alot of money for the F-35, and to see Israel bitching and moaning its way to early delivery is sickening.

As for all the 'want want want' demands like little children, they should be slapped down and told to shut up.
I think its also because it can help their exports(we have a very good air force better then ones that will buy it. only the US air force is better)

[josh21x]

Phalcon and Lavi, Green pine etc etc!! But hey they repented and is back on the home team, yay!

[spider1]

Phalcon and Lavi, Green pine etc etc!! But hey they repented and is back on the home team, yay!
Lavi was an Israeli made plane not American.

[Elemental666]

As for all the 'want want want' demands like little children, they should be slapped down and told to shut up.

Ah yes, how childish of Israel to want fit military equipment according to it's own needs.

I'm shocked and appalled.

[klong]

Stealth fighters ? I see more of a house to house conflict in Israel, in the coming years.

[Palmach]

Phalcon and Lavi, Green pine etc etc!! But hey they repented and is back on the home team, yay!

1. There is no verifiable proof that any Lavi-related technology transfer ever took place.
2. Phalcon, Harpy, and Green Pine are Israeli designed technology, thus sales do not invlove any violations of the American intellectual property.
3. Bitching about Israeli sales to the POTENTIAL american adversaries is highly hypocritical, given continuous american sales to countries AR WAR with Israel.

As far as who gets the planes first.
1. There is very little proof that Israel will in fact receive planes on a given date.
2. Not for nothing, but Israel actaully needs then. Most others could arm themselves with a Sesnas without seriously damaging their national security.

[500]

1) There were two cases when US officially blocked Israeli weapon sales to China:

a) Phalcon radar.
b) Harpy drones.

Both are 100% Israeli technologies.

2) There is no any real proof that Israel sold US technogy to China.
3) One of main sources of these rummors is Pat Buchanan's article in NY Times, same article that claimed that Israel sold Phoenix missiles to China (Israel never had them).
4) Here is Israeli technology that US sold to UAE, country that is officialy at war with Israel:

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9876/uae0.jpg

[Zarak]

4) Here is Israeli technology that US sold to UAE, country that is officialy at war with Israel:

Uh, the CFTs were designed by Lockheed Martin and were first flown on USAF aircraft. Not really sure what you're on about...


"Lockheed Martin has made a substantial investment in CFTs for our advanced F-16 versions," said Donald W. Jones, vice president of F-16 Programs. "We have done this in response to international market demands for more range and payload. CFTs have become a very popular option in recent orders and new business pursuits."

"We were very pleased with the results of the flight testing of our production design," said Thomas H. Clark, F-16 CFT program manager at LM Aero. "We have validated our design, analysis, and wind tunnel testing. The CFTs are meeting or exceeding our every expectation.

[2495]

Uh, the CFTs were designed by Lockheed Martin and were first flown on USAF aircraft. Not really sure what you're on about...

Designed, made and sold from the USA.

http://defense-update.com/products/c/F-16-CFT.htm

http://www.f-16.net/news_article781.html

Now, about those sales to countries Israel doesn't like.... well, if its their own technology they can damn well sell it to who they want. After all, they didn't copy it, steal it or reverse engineer it did they?

[technician]

How stealthy is the F-35?
its so stealthy you can fly it 20 feet from the air and no one will see it or hear it

[2495]

its so stealthy you can fly it 20 feet from the air and no one will see it or hear it


Epic.

Stealth 909 lessons needed methinks for you.

[LS1 Miata]

How stealthy is the F-35?

The requirement for the F-35 program was set at -30 dBsm, which is "said" to be around the same as the F-117.

The requirement for the F-22 program was -40 dBsm.

[LS1 Miata]

They should buy F-22s...keeping the production line open.

Except that the F-22 is an air superiority fighter, and is very inefficient in an AtG role. I don't know of any air forces that Israel might come up against that would warrant the F-22 because the F-35 couldn't handle them.

[josh21x]

1. There is no verifiable proof that any Lavi-related technology transfer ever took place.
2. Phalcon, Harpy, and Green Pine are Israeli designed technology, thus sales do not invlove any violations of the American intellectual property.
3. Bitching about Israeli sales to the POTENTIAL american adversaries is highly hypocritical, given continuous american sales to countries AR WAR with Israel.

As far as who gets the planes first.
1. There is very little proof that Israel will in fact receive planes on a given date.
2. Not for nothing, but Israel actaully needs then. Most others could arm themselves with a Sesnas without seriously damaging their national security.

You need American Export permissions for Phalcon, LAvi, GreenPine, etc etc! Israeli's shouldnt have done it, plain and simple.Or is there someother way, KJ-2000 Looks exactly like the Phalcon India purchased, antenna to antenna! And the Lavi too, Its ok you guys are a small country and comparetively poor to your threat perceptions, so you sold some, but hey you dont anymore and you repented...so lets alll have a drink or something, Israelis' atleast in this Indian's opinion should be ever grateful to the USA, that country has done more than anyother country has done for another one, more than even USSR to India, or maybe that is not even a good example!

[josh21x]

Ah yes, how childish of Israel to want fit military equipment according to it's own needs.

I'm shocked and appalled.


Maybe you guys should pay money than do it through aid?:roll:

[Elemental666]

Maybe you guys should money than do it through aid?:roll:

Nah.

...............

[josh21x]

Nah.

...............

Well then expect lectures, and you will have no option but to listen and adhere!

[spider1]

Well then expect lectures, and you will have no option but to listen and adhere!
Well the money goes back to Americans so why you so worried?...We need to use 75% on American weapons.

[*zeven*]

the Chinese deny that J-10 has any connection to the israeli design and point to similarities with J-9.

And what would you expect the chinese to do? send a thank you card to US government? give me a break..

[*zeven*]

its so stealthy you can fly it 20 feet from the air and no one will see it or hear it


irony is a blessing :)

[SOG]

According to allogations from very senior officials in the US government the Isrealies sold China design for the J-10, which is based off the Lavi fighter, which is inturn an upgraded F-16.

There was also allogations of wrong doing with radars if I remember right.

Nothing was ever pressed home because it all went political very quickly, but many independant observers believe Isreal is guilty of wrongdoing.

-- Bluelight.

Didn't Israel also work with China on UAV technology and cough some up?
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=israel+china+uav&aq=f&oq=&aqi=&fp=TfJ632Lb_VE

[josh21x]

Well, as an Indian, I wont ZERO involvement of Israel with China, China is our enemy and we dont supply to Israel's enemy nor do we give political support.
We pay HARD CASH and we are not The Israel's biggest Defense importer for nothing, I dont want my tax ruppees funding the Israelis to sell weapons or tech to chinese, which will be used against mine!

[Palmach]

You need American Export permissions for Phalcon, LAvi, GreenPine, etc etc! Israeli's shouldnt have done it, plain and simple.Or is there someother way, KJ-2000 Looks exactly like the Phalcon India purchased, antenna to antenna! And the Lavi too, Its ok you guys are a small country and comparetively poor to your threat perceptions, so you sold some, but hey you dont anymore and you repented...so lets alll have a drink or something, Israelis' atleast in this Indian's opinion should be ever grateful to the USA, that country has done more than anyother country has done for another one, more than even USSR to India, or maybe that is not even a good example!

Phalcon and Green Pine sales most clearly can not be blocked on the ground of technology transfer, since they do not contain imported components or components developed under a licensing agreement. Lavi does - but it was not exported.

Antena on KJ-2000 is a consequence of being built on Il-76, it has nothing at all to do with the specifics of the radar.

No-one claims that Americans have been bad friends. The argument I am trying to refute is that Israekl has been a bad friend to the US.

[josh21x]

Well the money goes back to Americans so why you so worried?...We need to use 75% on American weapons.

So how does that change anything? They are still funding you and supporting you has a negative political price, and yet they do!

[Palmach]

And what would you expect the chinese to do? send a thank you card to US government? give me a break..

I don't want chinese to do anything - I would like however to see someone present some concrete evidence of Lavi technology transfer, because as of right now a lot of people a foaming at the mouth based on hearsay.

[spider1]

Personally, i also think that we dont need to get 3 billion dollars from the US its only between 1-2% of our GDP if someone here wants to know and in exchange they get much more(political lavrage). Im responding to josh21x.

[SOG]

Phalcon and Green Pine sales most clearly can not be blocked on the ground of technology transfer, since they do not contain imported components or components developed under a licensing agreement. Lavi does - but it was not exported.

Antena on KJ-2000 is a consequence of being built on Il-76, it has nothing at all to do with the specifics of the radar.

No-one claims that Americans have been bad friends. The argument I am trying to refute is that Israekl has been a bad friend to the US.

Nah, Israel is a fine friend to the US. Anyone who claims otherwise is just following politics. All countries get their wires twisted from time to time, no biggy.

Besides, I think Israel can be trusted in this because:
1. They are Security Cooperative Participants (SCP). They are deep into the development and also heavily manufacturing state of the art weapons systems for the F-35.
2. They are relying on these planes to utterly protect their country in every way shape and form. I really doubt they would play fast and loose with one of the strongest points of their national security.

[JGXL836]

By the way, nowadays Israel has no intention to sell anything to China, because China may copy and sell in to Iran.

[Palmach]

Well, as an Indian, I wont ZERO involvement of Israel with China, China is our enemy and we dont supply to Israel's enemy nor do we give political support.
We pay HARD CASH and we are not The Israel's biggest Defense importer for nothing, I dont want my tax ruppees funding the Israelis to sell weapons or tech to chinese, which will be used against mine!

You have been providing political support to Israel's enemies for decades. Why don't you check when you government has finally agreed to establish relations with Israel.

But this is not about politics or affinities - its about business. You r getting top-notched systems which r others - like the US - refuse to sell or overcharge for. Like during the last war, when israel made munitions deliveries when no-one else would.

[GiladS]

So how does that change anything? They are still funding you and supporting you has a negative political price, and yet they do!

They do because whatever negative aspect that might exist, it has to be worthwhile in the end.

Say the U.S would cut the military aid it provides Israel... you think we will simply sit in the corner and wait to wither and die?

For example, Israel asked the U.S to purchase Tomahawk cruise missiles. The U.S refused, so Israel developed the Delilah... you know who's funding the development of the Delilah 2? The Chinese... so maybe in the end it's for the best that the U.S provides us incentives to purchase U.S tech with strict terms of use (from an American standpoint of course).

[500]

Designed, made and sold from the USA.

http://defense-update.com/products/c/F-16-CFT.htm

http://www.f-16.net/news_article781.html
From your own link:


The CFTs are built to Lockheed Martin's specification, by IAI as a sole source, as part of the Peace Marble V program offsets.


IAI also has strong ties with Lockheed Martin and today produces part for the F-16 including wing sections, flight control servo actuators and tails. In addition, the two companies are co-developing a conformal fuel tank for the F-16 and are looking at various different upgrade packages for the F-16.

http://www.iai.co.il/pict/Newslet/IAI-news01Eng.pdf


Now, about those sales to countries Israel doesn't like.... well, if its their own technology they can damn well sell it to who they want. After all, they didn't copy it, steal it or reverse engineer it did they?
US banned sales of two solely Israeli designs (Phalcon, Harpy).

Also all of the F-35s will have helmet mounted sights based on Israeli technology.

[ting]

They do because whatever negative aspect that might exist, it has to be worthwhile in the end.

Say the U.S would cut the military aid it provides Israel... you think we will simply sit in the corner and wait to wither and die?

For example, Israel asked the U.S to purchase Tomahawk cruise missiles. The U.S refused, so Israel developed the Delilah... you know who's funding the development of the Delilah 2? The Chinese... so maybe in the end it's for the best that the U.S provides us incentives to purchase U.S tech with strict terms of use (from an American standpoint of course).

Thats the risk I see in regards to Israel. If in 10 years time, Israel is viewed by the US as a pariah, they might figure the Chinese veto in the UN is worth it. Israel's interests could easily become contrary to US interests while the same can not be said about any of the other f-35 customers.

[spider1]

countries like Norway need the F-35..for what you need it?...Im saying that Israel is also a good test field for those planes....

[ting]

Personally I have no idea of the relationship between Lavi and J-10. I don't know much about the the Harpy, phalcon etc.

I would not be suprized if these Israeli products are based on US technology and know how. Lets say the "baby harpy's" guidance system is based on the agm-45 shrike, while the Harpy's guidance system is an evolution of the "baby harpy". It is an Israeli design, but is it really? Mind you this is just an example.

I do note that Israel was suspended from the jsf program in 2005. I think there must have been something very serious for the pentagon to take such a step while the at that time president of the US was the most pro Israeli(pro Israeli right wing) in history. I don't think some general got up on the wrong side of the bed one morning. There must have been something serious, that I doubt we will know for some time.

Mind you I'm only speculating.

[ting]

countries like Norway need the F-35..for what you need it?...Im saying that Israel is also a good test field for those planes....

The Swedes captured Jamtland, Hærjedalen and Bohus from us in the 16th century and we want it back.p-)

Seriously, we have an unresolved border dispute in an area with potential natural resources with a country who last year showed it was willing to use force with a neighbouring country. We are on good terms with Russia, however it is an unstable country, so we need to be able to defend our selves if something bad happens.


On the testing, I think you are forgetting the negative consequences. One example could be cluster munitions. The drive to ban them came high on the agenda after the Lebanon war. These weapons are now difficult for the US to use even though they are not a signatory to the agreement.

The use of Dime weapons in Gaza could pose a problem for use of them by the US and other countries. They are certainly looked upon with suspicion even though they are meant to limit civilian casualties.

Anyway the F-35 is overkill for the kind of sorties the IAF carries out, and I don't think getting it tested while at the same time provoking a major regional war(bombing Iran), is really worth the added information on the F-35s capabilities.;)

[Zarak]

Anyway the F-35 is overkill for the kind of sorties the IAF carries out, and I don't think getting it tested while at the same time provoking a major regional war(bombing Iran), is really worth the added information on the F-35s capabilities.;)

TBH MQ-9s would be a far more useful for the IAF. But just like elsewhere in the world, there's an obsession by those in charge of procurement with fancy fighters.

[Moledet]

I do note that Israel was suspended from the jsf program in 2005. I think there must have been something very serious for the pentagon to take such a step while the at that time president of the US was the most pro Israeli(pro Israeli right wing) in history. I don't think some general got up on the wrong side of the bed one morning. There must have been something serious, that I doubt we will know for some time.

Mind you I'm only speculating.
Israel was suspended because it offered to upgrade the Harpy UAVs for China.

There's zero connection between the Lavi and J-10, there's no similarity between the two jet fighters. They don't even have the same role.

P.S. the reason Israel isn't taking a larger role in the development of the F35 although it was offered to, is because the IAF didn't want any of its indigenous systems to be sold to other countries. Israel is developing systems for a stealth jet fighter since the year 2002, it really doesn't need anything apart of the airframe and engines so I can't see what's going to be sold to the Chinese unless you think we will sell them the airframe.


TBH MQ-9s would be a far more useful for the IAF. But just like elsewhere in the world, there's an obsession by those in charge of procurement with fancy fighters.
Right, we really need a MQ-9 because we can't build one on our own...
Everything is being developed together, the F35 is the last manned jet fighter in the IAF. After it and by the year 2050 the entire fleet will be unmanned.

[ting]

Israel was suspended because it offered to upgrade the Harpy UAVs for China.

There's zero connection between the Lavi and J-10, there's no similarity between the two jet fighters. They don't even have the same role.

P.S. the reason Israel isn't taking a larger role in the development of the F35 although it was offered to, is because the IAF didn't want any of its indigenous systems to be sold to other countries. Israel is developing systems for a stealth jet fighter since the year 2002, it really doesn't need anything apart of the airframe and engines so I can't see what's going to be sold to the Chinese unless you think we will sell them the airframe.



On the suspension I think there is more to it than that. I doubt that making an offer was what caused the suspension.

On the Lavi, I have no idea. If there was a transfer of know how, I think it was approved by the US. Remember that sales to China became a no no after tienamen.

On the participation, I think you are over stating the value of Israeli industry. If Israel had been given a bigger share of the development, it would have meant that it would get a bigger share of the bill. That is the whole point of the program.

Are you saying the Israelis can build just as good as F-35 since they'we been working on stealth since 2002?

I think you are drunk. :hug:I am starting to get sober. You will have a good read in the morning:lol:

[spider1]

The Lavi if it was finished it would rival the f-16 and some say it could the best plane in the world then...

[spider1]

The Swedes captured Jamtland, Hærjedalen and Bohus from us in the 16th century and we want it back.p-)

Seriously, we have an unresolved border dispute in an area with potential natural resources with a country who last year showed it was willing to use force with a neighbouring country. We are on good terms with Russia, however it is an unstable country, so we need to be able to defend our selves if something bad happens.


On the testing, I think you are forgetting the negative consequences. One example could be cluster munitions. The drive to ban them came high on the agenda after the Lebanon war. These weapons are now difficult for the US to use even though they are not a signatory to the agreement.

The use of Dime weapons in Gaza could pose a problem for use of them by the US and other countries. They are certainly looked upon with suspicion even though they are meant to limit civilian casualties.

Anyway the F-35 is overkill for the kind of sorties the IAF carries out, and I don't think getting it tested while at the same time provoking a major regional war(bombing Iran), is really worth the added information on the F-35s capabilities.;)
Cluster munitions are good if they expolde after you fire them. we bought those munitions from the US and some of them didnt explode, but we didnt do something that is not legal by using them(and if im not wrong now we buying from IMI better munitions)and i didnt understand why you are afraid from Russia...your part of Nato if i dont have a mistake- if they bomb you, Nato has to protect you.

[Palmach]

Thats the risk I see in regards to Israel. If in 10 years time, Israel is viewed by the US as a pariah, they might figure the Chinese veto in the UN is worth it. Israel's interests could easily become contrary to US interests while the same can not be said about any of the other f-35 customers.

And yet the US has no problems selling the most advanced weaponry to Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states :) I understand that the US seeing Israel as a pariah is your particular wet dream, but lets keep some prospective here.

[ting]

Cluster munitions are good if they expolde after you fire them. we bought those munitions from the US and some of them didnt explode, but we didnt do something that is not legal by using them(and if im not wrong now we buying from IMI better munitions)and i didnt understand why you are afraid from Russia...your part of Nato if i dont have a mistake- if they bomb you, Nato has to protect you.

If we decide to stop spending on the millitary, I don't think NATO would come to our aid. In any case we would have to defend our selves until reinforcements come. We are not really afraid of Russia, just catious.

20 years ago Russia was the USSR. 10 years ago oligarchs ruled with an alcoholic as a figurehead. Now a group of ex KGB men control the government and Gazprom, while Gazprom acts as an extention of the Russian foreign ministry. Who knows what Russia and it's government will look like in 10 years(2019)?

[Palmach]

Personally I have no idea of the relationship between Lavi and J-10. I don't know much about the the Harpy, phalcon etc.

"Yet I am going to write 3 paragraphs about how Israelis might be - and thus clearly are - bad. Bad, I tell you!"



I would not be suprized if these Israeli products are based on US technology and know how. Lets say the "baby harpy's" guidance system is based on the agm-45 shrike, while the Harpy's guidance system is an evolution of the "baby harpy". It is an Israeli design, but is it really? Mind you this is just an example..

These issues are not hypothetical, they are pretty clearly layed out in export agreements and contractual law. Would Harpy have included american technology or a direct derivative of such, the US could just veto the sale without any need for drastic political steps - as would be their prerogative under the licensing agreement.

Rather then conjugating sinister theories I suggest you a) look into the specs of Harpy b) into technologies transfer agreements between the US and Israel.


I do note that Israel was suspended from the jsf program in 2005. I think there must have been something very serious for the pentagon to take such a step while the at that time president of the US was the most pro Israeli(pro Israeli right wing) in history. I don't think some general got up on the wrong side of the bed one morning. There must have been something serious, that I doubt we will know for some time. Mind you I'm only speculating.

Why is it that "fans" of Israel love their conspiracy theories?

[Palmach]

TBH MQ-9s would be a far more useful for the IAF.

Israel has its own HALE UAV - Heron II TP (Eitan)

[spider1]

If we decide to stop spending on the millitary, I don't think NATO would come to our aid. In any case we would have to defend our selves until reinforcements come. We are not really afraid of Russia, just catious.

20 years ago Russia was the USSR. 10 years ago oligarchs ruled with an alcoholic as a figurehead. Now a group of ex KGB men control the government and Gazprom, while Gazprom acts as an extention of the Russian foreign ministry. Who knows what Russia and it's government will look like in 10 years(2019)?
LOL if countries will start building reactor they will not need any Russian Gas(you are saying that they blackmail countries over Gas, right?).

[ting]

And yet the US has no problems selling the most advanced weaponry to Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states :) I understand that the US seeing Israel as a pariah is your particular wet dream, but lets keep some prospective here.

Thankfully my wet dreams don't involve Israel.:grin: Except if I have been viewing too many pictures of IDF girls:oops:

We don't know what the future brings. I believe that the current direction of Israel is against both Europe and the US's interests(not to mention the interests of the people who live in Israel and Palestine). Hopefully Israel will change it's course.

[spider1]

Israel has its own HALE UAV - Heron II TP (Eitan)
If i dont have a mistake its a MALE not HALE.

[Palmach]

the testing, I think you are forgetting the negative consequences. One example could be cluster munitions. The drive to ban them came high on the agenda after the Lebanon war. These weapons are now difficult for the US to use even though they are not a signatory to the agreement.

The use of Dime weapons in Gaza could pose a problem for use of them by the US and other countries. They are certainly looked upon with suspicion even though they are meant to limit civilian casualties.

Anyway the F-35 is overkill for the kind of sorties the IAF carries out, and I don't think getting it tested while at the same time provoking a major regional war(bombing Iran), is really worth the added information on the F-35s capabilities.;)

These "negative consequences" exist pramerally in the inflamed minds of the hollier the thou brigade of hypocrits. Counties with actual national security concerns value combat expiriece with modern weapon systems quite highly. The extent of the US bombing compaign in Afg nad Pak shows that Dime weapons are not an issue for a simple reason - they couldn't care less for the civilian casualties.

IAF mission is not restricted to Gaza and Lebanon, its a strategic asset and deterrent. It must be able to trump Syria and keep non-actively hostile arab countries in check and be able to strike Iran shoud need be.

Is F35 the way to go? Its debatable. But your insinuations that Israel has no need for modern airforce is just silly.

[Palmach]

If i dont have a mistake its a MALE not HALE.

Nope, its considered HALE along with the Reaper. Germany is choosing between these 2 system right now, they have similar capabilities and occupide the same operational niche.

[spider1]

Nope, its considered HALE along with the Reaper. Germany is choosing between these 2 system right now, they have similar capabilities and occupide the same operational niche.
I hope in the next 5 years or so will have a UAV that can fire air to air missiles it will be great.

[ting]

"Yet I am going to write 3 paragraphs about how Israelis might be - and thus clearly are - bad. Bad, I tell you!"

I was actually thinking evilrofl. Or maybe industriously evil? Oh no, matter, Evil will have to do:lol:




These issues are not hypothetical, they are pretty clearly layed out in export agreements and contractual law. Would Harpy have included american technology or a direct derivative of such, the US could just veto the sale without any need for drastic political steps - as would be their prerogative under the licensing agreement.

Rather then conjugating sinister theories I suggest you a) look into the specs of Harpy b) into technologies transfer agreements between the US and Israel.

Sorry I am too stupid, err I mean I have not the time nor the inclination to do something as complicated and time consuming. I whould never be able to pinpoint the information that indicates US know how. I have to go on rule of thumb assumptions of how the world works.:-(




Why is it that "fans" of Israel love their conspiracy theories?

I find your definition of a conspiracy theory as quite expansive and all inclusive. Not really a god definition IMHOp-)

[ting]

LOL if countries will start building reactor they will not need any Russian Gas(you are saying that they blackmail countries over Gas, right?).

It's a lot more complicated than that. It's not the gas in it self that is interesting, it is the pipelines. Also IMHO Gazprom plays an important political role in the uppper levels of the government.

[Nizark]

Once the IAF get it's hands on the 35's, they will be the BMF's on the block...even more. Unless the US is still around in huge numbers

[spider1]

Ah that they want to be go via Russia and not via other countries?..

[Palmach]

Thankfully my wet dreams don't involve Israel.

Bull. People of your ideological prospective would give a body part to see Israel humbled and beaten into submission.


We don't know what the future brings. I believe that the current direction of Israel is against both Europe and the US's interests(not to mention the interests of the people who live in Israel and Palestine). Hopefully Israel will change it's course.

And should it fail to live up to the expectations of Norway, it shell be brought to its sences by the mighty host of the EU, right? Honestly, is that why u r against Israel getting F-35s? You guys are getting all this practice against Afganis with no airforce....

[ting]

These "negative consequences" exist pramerally in the inflamed minds of the hollier the thou brigade of hypocrits. Counties with actual national security concerns value combat expiriece with modern weapon systems quite highly. The extent of the US bombing compaign in Afg nad Pak shows that Dime weapons are not an issue for a simple reason - they couldn't care less for the civilian casualties.

IAF mission is not restricted to Gaza and Lebanon, its a strategic asset and deterrent. It must be able to trump Syria and keep non-actively hostile arab countries in check and be able to strike Iran shoud need be.

Is F35 the way to go? Its debatable. But your insinuations that Israel has no need for modern airforce is just silly.

Some how I feel this should say something about me, but I am perfect so, no it does not;-)

I never said Israel did'nt need a modern air force. I was questioning weather it needed something that "modern".

[spider1]

Once the IAF get it's hands on the 35's, they will be the BMF's on the block...even more. Unless the US is still around in huge numbers
What does it mean BMF?...and btw we have better pilots then American ones.

[ting]

Bull. People of your ideological prospective would give a body part to see Israel humbled and beaten into submission.

Ooh stop teasing me like that it gives me (not suited for an open forum).

Does a locke of hair count? I don't really see this as a play ground fight. These are serious life and death issues for a lot of people.




And should it fail to live up to the expectations of Norway, it shell be brought to its sences by the mighty host of the EU, right? Honestly, is that why u r against Israel getting F-35s? You guys are getting all this practice against Afganis with no airforce....

I don't really know if I am for or against it. I think Israel should pay for it with it's own money, and not burden the US taxpayer while americans are unable to get basic health care.

[ting]

What does it mean BMF?...and btw we have better pilots then American ones.

Bad mother ****er. The guy nobody wants to mess with. The head honcho. The top guy. Number 1 etc.:grin:

And No I don't think you have better pilots than the Americans.

[josh21x]

You have been providing political support to Israel's enemies for decades. Why don't you check when you government has finally agreed to establish relations with Israel.

But this is not about politics or affinities - its about business. You r getting top-notched systems which r others - like the US - refuse to sell or overcharge for. Like during the last war, when israel made munitions deliveries when no-one else would.

Sir,

The operative word is political, there is no reason why both Israeli's and Palestinians cant be supported politically, they both have a right to live. And it was harmless political gimmick played to appease Indian Muslims. It can be about business, if it is going to be about business, then you can look for my 5 billion dollars elsewhere!

PS:Both France and Russia also provided us with arms! And we thank the Israeli's for their support and make no doubt politics or no politics we are on their side, but not the cost of our national security, not at the cost of our boys in the front who maybe plummled by a modified lavi, or a Phalcon! If you plan to do that, then Israeli's should have no preferential treatment as they get now from the Indians in defence deals

[josh21x]

And yet the US has no problems selling the most advanced weaponry to Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states :) I understand that the US seeing Israel as a pariah is your particular wet dream, but lets keep some prospective here.

Heard about the Kill Switch.

[JoeDan]

Israel least likely out of all the partner countries to sell information to the Chinese, I doubt it :cantbeli:. We might as well start working on something new....

I wouldn't worry too much about Israel selling us out to the Chinese. Bill Clinton and his buddies did a pretty good job of providing China with satellite technology which did wonders for their ICBM accuracy.

[LRPV]

we have better pilots then American ones.


Do you? Do you know the operating parameters for the aircrews and ground support in the exercises on which you base your claim?
Please don't base your thinking on news headlines, the real world is slightly more sophisticated.

Your restraint from continually embarrassing Israel would be appreciated.

[Moledet]

On the suspension I think there is more to it than that. I doubt that making an offer was what caused the suspension.

On the Lavi, I have no idea. If there was a transfer of know how, I think it was approved by the US. Remember that sales to China became a no no after tienamen.

On the participation, I think you are over stating the value of Israeli industry. If Israel had been given a bigger share of the development, it would have meant that it would get a bigger share of the bill. That is the whole point of the program.

Are you saying the Israelis can build just as good as F-35 since they'we been working on stealth since 2002?

I think you are drunk. :hug:I am starting to get sober. You will have a good read in the morning:lol:
It was no offer, the Harpys were already in Israel and then sent back.

Some say the Lavi share the same avionics as the J-10, but it can't be proved.

Not everything is about money, the ministry of defense doesn't allow to sell some things and that includes most of the IAF avionics. Israel can't build a F35 but all the avionics are prepared for a stealth fighter.

[AmaStrat]

Of all the US partners, I'd say the Israeli are least likely to leak the secrets relating to F-35, or F-22.

But as with kids you need to be very careful what you give little Johnny 'cos Timmy will want it too.

Will Timmy help in bombing Iran? If yes, then he can have brand new F-35s too.

[spider1]

Do you? Do you know the operating parameters for the aircrews and ground support in the exercises on which you base your claim?
Please don't base your thinking on news headlines, the real world is slightly more sophisticated.

Your restraint from continually embarrassing Israel would be appreciated.

http://books.google.co.il/books?id=Tqj9ZP8FsJEC&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=ISRAEL+AIR+FORCE+SIMULATION+KILL+RATIO&source=bl&ots=BGX4D2K3cp&sig=r1XyIjNMDgwtJiM4oB1YiLxGhfg&hl=iw&ei=mmJYSr7sJJmamAOPp-DdCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6

[*zeven*]

What does it mean BMF?...and btw we have better pilots then American ones.

Is that so?

thought that myth was killed years ago..

all air forces says they have the best ones.

exactly how do they measure this?? and does the american pilots agree?

[*zeven*]

The Lavi if it was finished it would rival the f-16 and some say it could the best plane in the world then...

i really get the feeling, when you debate you do it more with heart than with your brain.

[spider1]

Is that so?

thought that myth was killed years ago..

all air forces says they have the best ones.

exactly how do they measure this?? and does the american pilots agree?
Dogfight exercises

[*zeven*]

Dogfight exercises

Really?

why don you provide ONE link, that support your claim, where american officals agree, the Isreali pilotas are better than theirs

[josh21x]

Israelis are good, but then again who isnt good against the arabs!

[Snoshi]

Really?

why don you provide ONE link, that support your claim, where american officals agree, the Isreali pilotas are better than theirs


| Sep. 22, 2003
| THE ASSOCIATED PRESS


Posted on den 22 september 2003 16:18:34 by yonif

Israeli air force pilots handily beat their German counterparts in "dogfights" in the first ever air force exercise between the two countries, an Israeli military official said Monday.

The Israeli F-15 pilots, aided by special technology that Israel does not share or sell to other countries, beat the Germans by more than 100 "hits," said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. In the past, Israel has beaten American air force pilots by similar margins, the officials added.

Israel purchases U.S. warplanes without battle technology, installing its own locally made systems into the aircraft.

The exercise was conducted over the past two weeks in the skies of Sardinia in Italy.

Germany is considered one of Israel's closest defense allies. Recently, Germany sold _ for a symbolic fee _ three advanced "Dolphin" submarines to Israel.
Israel's air force has held exercises with the United States and Turkey recently.
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/986951/posts


Report: IAF whips US pilots in exercise
By ARIEH O'SULLIVAN
September 24, 1999
The Jerusalem Post


TEL AVIV (September 24) - A recent joint exercise between the IAF and
US Navy Sixth Fleet pilots apparently resulted in a thorough routing of
the US pilots, according to the latest edition of Air Force Monthly.

The American-based magazine said the exercise in question took place in
the Negev skies and involved engagements between IAF F-16s and US Navy
F-14s and F/A-18s.

Quoting Israeli military sources, the magazine said one of the
exercises ended with the score of 40:1 in favor of the IAF. The
magazine said Israel "downed" 220 aircraft for the loss of just 20 of
its own.

It said that the results have not been officially published "to save
the reputations of the US Navy pilots."

The magazine did not say when the exercise took place. But security
sources said that the dogfights took place about three months ago. They
said the exercise was the first time that Israeli pilots actually took
part in the maneuvers and didn't just give logistical support. Israeli
pilots have also flown with various flight academies as guests or
students.

The IAF said it does not give detailed results of training exercises.
But air force commanders were said to be incensed by the report. While
refusing to confirm or deny the report, military sources said neither
Israel or the US had officially released the "scores."

"We showed an arrogance we didn't mean to display," one senior IAF
officer said.
http://christian-update.org/newsletter/att-0032/07-mil_sullivan990924.txt

According to one source, US Marine Corps F/A-18 Hornets from the Balkans theater recently engaged in mock combat with Israeli Air Force fighters. The Hornets were armed with AIM-9s, and the Israeli fighters carried Python 3 and Python 4 missiles and Elbit DASH helmet sights. IDR's source describes the results as "more than ugly", the Israelis prevailing in 220 out of 240 engagements.

http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/idr/idr010529_1_n.shtml

[*zeven*]

Israel operates F-15 vs US F-18, case closed

F-18 is known to "suck" in A2A engagements. Just look how the Swedish Gripen just play around with the Finnish F-18s. but i don't say the Swedish pilots are any better than the Finnish, because they are NOT..

the F-15 platform is superior to F-18 in A2A engagements

US F-15 vs Israeli F-15 and the outcome might have been different.

PS.
but thanks alot for the links!! you've my respect for taking your time. (something i could have done myself)

[Snoshi]

OH Israel operates F-15 vs US F-18 case closed

F-18 is known to "suck" just look how the Swedish Gripen just play around with the Finnish F-18s. but i don't say the Swedish pilots are any better than the Finnish, because they are NOT..



Got a source for "Swedish Gripen's playing around with Finnish F/A-18's?

[*zeven*]

Got a source for "Swedish Gripen's playing around with Finnish F/A-18's?


statement from a Swedish pilot. When asked how the outcome from the excersise between them and their finnish counterpart.
and he said ( maybe he lies i dont know. its up to everyone to decide. im just refering to pilot vs pilot can't be measured when operating different platforms)

"In excersises with Finnish F/A-18's the Gripen won ALL of the WVR and BVR fights. The TIDLS proved to be a superior tool in the BVR fights. The F/A-18's were hit with multiple simulated AMRAAM shots, before they even knew that the Gripen fighters were present. The Gripen pilots said in WVR dogfights the F/A-18 became easier to take out the lower they went, and at 2000m, there was simply no contest."

from official statements, Swdish people are bit more "gentle" so they don't use these kind of words exactly.

but if you read behind the lines from excersises between Sweden and Finland the outcome is quite clear!

however this does not prove anything, more than, Gripen might be a better A2A fighter than F-18. on the same level as F-16 / F-15 is superior the F-18 in A2A engagements.

newer platform superior datalinks so quite obivous if you ask me. However this does not say anything about the Finnish pilots that just might be better than their swedish counterpart!

[LS1 Miata]

The Israelis won most of those dogfights because they had better WVR technology. That doesn't mean that they are in fact better pilots.

An American pilot in an F-35, using it's DAS, would defeat an Israeli pilot almost every single time. Again, it wouldn't mean that the American pilot is better.

[spider1]

Will see when Israel will have the F-35 with Israeli made avionics against an American F-35 and will see.

[LS1 Miata]

Will see when Israel will have the F-35 with Israeli made avionics against an American F-35 and will see.

Again, that brings back the technology argument.

The only real way to observe who is a better pilot and who isn't is to measure ONLY the pilot skills. Put them in something like a T-38, where everything is exactly the same, and have the dogfight. Gun kills only, not much technology.

[IDF_TANKER]

Hesus F*cking Christ, can we stop with this moronic **** contest???? Spider, do a favor to us all, go disconnect from the internet, OK??

[Herman the II]

Will see when Israel will have the F-35 with Israeli made avionics against an American F-35 and will see.

There wont be any Israeli avionics on the F35, especially by 2014. Completely illusional..
That option was dropped.

[spider1]

I read that will be allowed to put our tech on the planes and also that will get the first planes in 2014(thats what the article says).

[timetraveller]

I dislike the f35 so much it's well over hyped by a long shot ..


And a serious waste of cash ...

[LS1 Miata]

i dislike the f35 so much it's well over hyped by a long shot ..


And a serious waste of cash ...

aaahahahahahahaha!rofl

[Zarak]

I dislike the f35 so much it's well over hyped by a long shot ..


And a serious waste of cash ...

Thank you for your expert opinion. :|

[IsraDani]

wow
great news.Its nice to see our airforce improving.:)

[crush6655]

I dislike the f35 so much it's well over hyped by a long shot ..


And a serious waste of cash ...
You're right, A F-15E+ is way better..

But hey, We gotta hold some sort of a Propaganda Fighter-Jet, right ?

[Ren987]

The Israelis won most of those dogfights because they had better WVR technology. That doesn't mean that they are in fact better pilots.

An American pilot in an F-35, using it's DAS, would defeat an Israeli pilot almost every single time. Again, it wouldn't mean that the American pilot is better.Nearly all the F-35 avionics such as the AESA radar, ECM, EW, HMDS, DAS, EOTS etc could be installed on other fighters as well such as the F-15E. Northrop said at Paris Airshow that DAS is not unique to F-35 and could be integrated in others fighters if asked. In my opinion, avionics can be retrofitted but aerodynamics, stealth cannot and that's what make a fighter 'unique'. As we know aerodynamics is not the F-35 strength so stealth has better to be good in order to compensate because if stealth disappoints, F-35 will be a sitting duck against a capable opponent.

Israeli EW and ECM suits already incorporated DAS-like systems. Nothing special here. To give you an exemple, Israel was the first western nation to field in the early 1990s, helmet mounted cueing system (Elbit DASH which later evolved as the JHMCS) in conjonction with the first western off-boresight AA missile (Python 4). The combinaison was designed to outperform the Soviet Archer/HMS and MiG-29.

Since Israel don't make combat aircraft anymore all the weight and ressources are put on avionics and missile systems, that's why they are at the cutting edge in this domain - alongside the US.

[Karaahmetoglu]

will see when israel will have the f-35 with israeli made avionics against an american f-35 and will see.

:-|:-|

Isreali made avionic version of the F-35 will not show up for a long time.

[LS1 Miata]

Israeli EW and ECM suits already incorporated DAS-like systems. Nothing special here. To give you an exemple, Israel was the first western nation to field in the early 1990s, helmet mounted cueing system (Elbit DASH which later evolved as the JHMCS) in conjonction with the first western off-boresight AA missile (Python 4). The combinaison was designed to outperform the Soviet Archer/HMS and MiG-29.

DASH an JHMCS are not "DAS-like" systems. DAS is completely different. To date, I can't think of any aircraft that has had (or used for testing purposes) multiple cameras surrounding it to provide an uncompromised level of close-in protection. DAS is a first in the combat aircraft field.

[spider1]

:-|:-|

Isreali made avionic version of the F-35 will not show up for a long time.
According to this article will be able to put some systems on it.

[John1980]

Dogfight exercises

At that time USN was flying with AIM-9M's or something similar, Israelis with Python 4's with HMS's, not a small advantage in simulated (or real) dogfights, also Americans also lost in similar excercises to Luftwaffe MiG-29's with R-73's and HMS's. But in real war, all those would have been met with volleys of AIM-120's long before these formidable dogfighters would have been in range. Also correct me if im wrong, but i think at the time Israel didnt even have AIM-120's for the F-16's at least. So yes, result of those trainings tells something, but as its been pointed out, in real situation, things might have gone very differently.

Cheers.

[Snoshi]

At that time USN was flying with AIM-9M's or something similar, Israelis with Python 4's with HMS's, not a small advantage in simulated (or real) dogfights, also Americans also lost in similar excercises to Luftwaffe MiG-29's with R-73's and HMS's. But in real war, all those would have been met with volleys of AIM-120's long before these formidable dogfighters would have been in range. Also correct me if im wrong, but i think at the time Israel didnt even have AIM-120's for the F-16's at least. So yes, result of those trainings tells something, but as its been pointed out, in real situation, things might have gone very differently.

Cheers.

Just for the info. Israel got its AIM-120B in 1998

[Karaahmetoglu]

According to this article will be able to put some systems on it.

I believe it is on all of them though not like a Isreali special.

[Ren987]

DASH an JHMCS are not "DAS-like" systems. DAS is completely different. To date, I can't think of any aircraft that has had (or used for testing purposes) multiple cameras surrounding it to provide an uncompromised level of close-in protection. DAS is a first in the combat aircraft field.
DASH and DAS serve exactly the same purpose: give the pilots a better situation awarness of the surrounding. DASH was 20years ago. Don't you think that during the last 20years, the IAF slept on their shoulders and didn't ask for new ideas and solutions? Putting cameras around the planes is nothing extraordinary. Sensors around the plane detects the threat, the pilot then shot the missile irrelevant of the angle. Python 5 full sphere missile was developped with this idea in mind. Hell the israeli were putting camera around their merkava tanks before anyone did, so why not combat aircrafts? Of course since the israelis keep their EW suits and avionics under a wrap of secrecy, it's speculation...

[frenchy]

According to this article will be able to put some systems on it.

Crucial thing.

[dlat83]

Some great news. Thanks

[Moledet]

I believe it is on all of them though not like a Isreali special.
No, the Israeli systems that were requested won't be sold to other countries. They will be installed only on IAF F35s.

[LS1 Miata]

DASH and DAS serve exactly the same purpose: give the pilots a better situation awarness of the surrounding. DASH was 20years ago. Don't you think that during the last 20years, the IAF slept on their shoulders and didn't ask for new ideas and solutions? Putting cameras around the planes is nothing extraordinary. Sensors around the plane detects the threat, the pilot then shot the missile irrelevant of the angle. Python 5 full sphere missile was developped with this idea in mind. Hell the israeli were putting camera around their merkava tanks before anyone did, so why not combat aircrafts? Of course since the israelis keep their EW suits and avionics under a wrap of secrecy, it's speculation...

With DASH, I'm assuming that the pilot's helmet is linked to the IR seeker on the missile.

With DAS, it's entirely different (although still the same concept...providing more situational awareness). The missile seeker is slaved to all the cameras around the aircraft. The pilot doesn't even have to look, because the cameras are doing that for him. All he needs to do is push a button. Like I said, this is a first in aviation. Before hand, pilots had to still look and manuever their aircraft to get the missile within it's off-bore capability range (typically 60-90 degrees). Now, with DAS, the missile has a full 180-360 degree off-bore capability.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Many countries will jump the JSF train due to ongoing working process...otherwise what can they do? narrow streets...

[JohanGrön]

DASH an JHMCS are not "DAS-like" systems. DAS is completely different. To date, I can't think of any aircraft that has had (or used for testing purposes) multiple cameras surrounding it to provide an uncompromised level of close-in protection. DAS is a first in the combat aircraft field.

According to Lockheed Martin (Jerry Mazanowski) the DAS would not be any "silver bullet" in WVR fights. The combat performance Within Visual Range (WVR) of the JSF will be only marginally superior to that of fourth generation and advanced fourth generation counterparts :



In a WVR engagement, the differences in the capabilities of the various aircraft were barely measurable. Although the F-35 was assumed not to be carrying externally mounted short-range AIM-9X missiles to avoid increasing its radar cross-section, Mazanowski praised the short-range performance of AMRAAM.

"The WVR environment, once you get there, is very awkward and very lethal. We think the F-35 may have some limited advantage in situational awareness with its DAS [distributed aperture system] and hopefully there would be enough wingmen to work their way out of the situation," Mazanowski said.

He added: "One guy has a little bit of an advantage in WVR and can shoot first, but both folks end up not doing well."


To conclude, you would not want to enter into any close in dogfighting if you have the ability to run and fight another day.

Links [1] (http://www.australiandefence.com.au/archive/air-power-jsf-consortium-pricing-on-the-cards---adm-mar-2009), [2] (http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/press_releases/2008/0919ae_f-35settingrecordstraight.html)

[spider1]

You mean to use the money on non American weapons?..We can use only 25% on non American weapons and we need the F-35 against some air defense systems(S-300 S-400)and also ofcourse to replace some old planes. It will be our last manned plane.

[spider1]

You mean intelligence equipment?...we have..im pretty sure that from 2006 our intelligence on Hizzbollah is better.

[somrandom]

Hey guys, I have a question, being that Israel has the 2nd best Air Force in the world following the US, what is the reasoning behind the necessity of spending the money on the F-35 ?

I know Israel gets a boat load of financial aid from the US, but isn't the money better spent elsewhere ?

A very bold statement.

No pun intended. rofl rofl

[Snoshi]

No I mean elsewhere aside weaponry, such as intelligence against Hizzballah terrorists or such.

Seems to me the tthreat to Israel is not a nation, but terrorists like the hiszballah gang

Actually you are wrong.. HZB is not a threat to Israel.. Its an annoynace. Since HZB cannot really do anything major expect terrorist attacks and rocket shootings which cannot threaten Israel.. IAF is needed in case Arab states such as Syria and Egypt will start hostilities against Israel.

[JGXL836]

Ok, I am with you regarding Egypot, but you really think Syria stands a chance in air battles or ANY battle against israel ?

No. Syria has many "Scuds" and field artillery and... nothing else. Obsolete tanks, small obsolete air-force ans obsolete almost non-existent navy wouldn't help Syria.

[JGXL836]

No I mean elsewhere aside weaponry, such as intelligence against Hizzballah terrorists or such.

75% of the 2.something billion dollars must be spent in US.

I guess, US would share intelligence against Hizzballah for no money. :)

[Snoshi]

Ok, I am with you regarding Egypot, but you really think Syria stands a chance in air battles or ANY battle against israel ?

At the moment no and it will probably remain the future... But purchase of F-35's is not only made because of current threats.. But because of the future wars etc.. Israel cant fly those F-15's and F-16's forever..

Also USA has Egypt in its hand.. As long as their is peace with Israel, Egypt gets its cool toys.. But if they break the treaty and start moving forces into Sinai then US aid will stop and an embargo will be put into place.. And after a while all the cool toys that Egypt has will transform into useless junk..

[John1980]

Just for the info. Israel got its AIM-120B in 1998

And on which platform were those deployed on, let me guess, on the F-15! Which is the primary interceptor of IDF/AF. F-16's got theirs years later, maybe only with the F-16I deal?

Cheers.

[JoeDan]

I work in the aviation industry. Almost 25 years now. It won't be too long before they take the pilots out of the fighters and we'll get to start this thread all over again.

:cantbeli:

[LS1 Miata]

According to Lockheed Martin (Jerry Mazanowski) the DAS would not be any "silver bullet" in WVR fights. The combat performance Within Visual Range (WVR) of the JSF will be only marginally superior to that of fourth generation and advanced fourth generation counterparts :

To conclude, you would not want to enter into any close in dogfighting if you have the ability to run and fight another day.

Links [1] (http://www.australiandefence.com.au/archive/air-power-jsf-consortium-pricing-on-the-cards---adm-mar-2009), [2] (http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/press_releases/2008/0919ae_f-35settingrecordstraight.html)

First off, Lockheed Martin states nothing about the DAS in you second link.

Secondly, Jerry Mananowski never said anything about the DAS in your first link.

Here is what he said...


...told the visiting journalists there was a perception not only overseas but within the US military that the JSF was a subsonic bomber, not unlike the F-117.

And here is what L/M really said about the F-35's WVR performance (from your second link):


"In all F-35 Program Office and U.S. Air Force air-to-air combat effectiveness analysis to date, the F-35 enjoys a significant Combat Loss Exchange Ratio advantage over the current and future air-to-air threats, to include Sukhois," said Maj. Gen. Charles R. Davis, F-35 program executive officer.

[JohanGrön]

First off, Lockheed Martin states nothing about the DAS in you second link.

Secondly, Jerry Mananowski never said anything about the DAS in your first link.

Sorry about the sources, the claim was however made by Jerry Mazanowski some time ago at a briefing of aussie journos at LM in Forth Worth.

Jane's got an article (http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Defence-Weekly-2009/JSF-loses-edge-at-short-range-Lockheed-Martin-admits.html) but for subscribers only so I'm not able to copy paste it here in its entirety due to copyright issues.



Lockheed Martin has defended the air-to-air capabilities of the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) while conceding that the aircraft's performance in combat within visual range (WVR) will only be marginally superior to that of its fourth-generation and advanced fourth-generation counterparts.

[LS1 Miata]

First look, first shot, first kill are the watchwords for the primary sensors that Northrop Grumman is developing for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter: the AN/APG-81 AESA radar and its companion AN/AAQ-37 electro-optical Distributed Aperture System (DAS).

The six IR sensors that make up the DAS system provide a sensor bubble around the F-35 for missile warning, tracking and situational awareness, and also will facilitate the use of high-off boresight weapons on the F-35, which means the aircraft doesn't have to be the most maneuverable in a dogfight to triumph.


"Maneuverability is irrelevant with DAS," said Northrop Grumman director of business development Mark Gaertner, speaking at Le Bourget. "The F-35 exits the fight and lets the missile do the maneuvering. The JSF just keeps its speed up and accelerates away."


Testing of DAS with a high-off boresight weapon is not scheduled until the 2011, according to Gaertner, while initial DAS testing will the year before - 2010.


The DAS sensors are designed specifically for the F-35 airframe and, as such, are not easily retrofit into other aircraft. Gaertner, however, didn't discount the possible of placing the system into other aircraft.


http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4140825&c=AME&s=TOP

[JohanGrön]

First look, first shot, first kill are the watchwords for the primary sensors that Northrop Grumman is developing for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter: the AN/APG-81 AESA radar and its companion AN/AAQ-37 electro-optical Distributed Aperture System (DAS).

The six IR sensors that make up the DAS system provide a sensor bubble around the F-35 for missile warning, tracking and situational awareness, and also will facilitate the use of high-off boresight weapons on the F-35, which means the aircraft doesn't have to be the most maneuverable in a dogfight to triumph.

"Maneuverability is irrelevant with DAS," said Northrop Grumman director of business development Mark Gaertner, speaking at Le Bourget. "The F-35 exits the fight and lets the missile do the maneuvering. The JSF just keeps its speed up and accelerates away."


Testing of DAS with a high-off boresight weapon is not scheduled until the 2011, according to Gaertner, while initial DAS testing will the year before - 2010.


The DAS sensors are designed specifically for the F-35 airframe and, as such, are not easily retrofit into other aircraft. Gaertner, however, didn't discount the possible of placing the system into other aircraft.

Nothing that is exclusive to JSF, all 4:th gen fighters and above have or are incorporating high off bore sight missiles and cueing systems.

And regarding the maneuverability is irrelevant you should take that part with more than a grain of salt. The marketing department of LockMart is nothing I would lean on in a shooting war, they are just there to sell more planes ... p-)

When even a LockMart representative, former fighter pilot Mazanowski, is announcing (http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Defence-Weekly-2009/JSF-loses-edge-at-short-range-Lockheed-Martin-admits.html)that the JSF is only marginally better than other similar planes in wvr to journalists then I would listen to him rather than to LM:s promo material from the marketing department.

But fanboys out there will probably not I guess ...

[Rapier55]

Maybe some of you are looking too far into the whole “maneuverability is irrelevant” quote. Any late model aircraft should do whatever is necessary to avoid a WVR fight. Having high maneuverability/energy states is important. However, HOBS and better point-and-shoot abilities make a modern day dogfight a suicide run. Without better countermeasures, i.e. advanced IRCM/directed-lasers/MAWS (excluding flares), a modern SR/IR missile is unbeatable in the heart of its envelope. Advanced seeker arrays, higher speeds/distances and increased AOA make modern IR missiles nearly impossible to beat. Given the laws of physics, you may spoof the first missile but after the second or third SRM/IR shot all that manueverability is diminshed as you bleed energy trying to outsmart the missle. Look what happened to the Indian SU-30's when they came to Mountain Home AFB. The real world won't be so forgiving. In addition, as datalinking in SRM missiles improves, as does the motors, you can rest assured that if that missile doesn’t connect the first time it may be coming around for a second look (how much energy will you have left to bleed).

It’s no secret the JSF will be somewhat of a pig in the air (if you consider the handling of that in between a legacy F-18 and F-16 a pig). What LM is banking on is the JSF’s LO being able to dictate the terms and tactics in setting up an IR shot given the need (exercises with the F-22 have successfully proven this possible). If the terms are not its favor, using its stealth and LPI radar/avionics the JSF can withdraw from the fight before any advanced optical cueing (or RF) sees or even has a shot within the missle's envelope. There’s no kill but the pilot/plane live. Precariously, stealth makes “maneuverability irrelevant.” Or at least that’s what LM hopes. I’d hate to be the first pilot to test this out in real combat.

Some of the arguments against this doctrine play it out in a 1v1 fight. That is somewhat of a valid argument. An F-35 trying to out manuever an EF or Su-3X is laughable. However, when do strike packages/CAPs ever fly alone (US/European flight/sortie saturation)? When you run the numbers game with LO aircraft and have advanced cueing/datalinking, maneuvering becomes a bit less important. If the F-35 is in any sort of high energy/maneuverability WVR fight there’s a good chance both planes will lose. Hence the use of wolf-pack skirmish-line advanced optical sweeping tactics. Not to mention"stealth tactics" developed at Nellis AFB and within F-22 squadrons that have been used in Red Flag exercises.

Also, the fusion of all the sensors/systems on the F-35 is what makes it unique. Each system alone is not much more advanced than what any competitor carriers. However, combine those systems with stealth and the package adds a whole new dimension to war fighting, or what LM describes as “revolutionary.” In the next 10 to 20 years though this will be the norm in US and European UAV’s.

It seems the big “caveat” here is that if you don’t believe in the ability of stealth then much of what is written above is irrelevant. If the LO can’t get them in a position to avoid being optical cued (in return set up their own IR shot) then they run the potential of falling victim to the mutual-suicide theory. Otherwise, you better have better optics and a better/longer SRM.

[LS1 Miata]

Nothing that is exclusive to JSF, all 4:th gen fighters and above have or are incorporating high off bore sight missiles and cueing systems.

Except that most (no, scratch that...ALL) 4th generation fighters with high off-bore sight missiles and cueing systems only have a 60-90 degree off-bore capability.

The F-35 has a full 360 degree off-bore capability, giving it a distinct advantage.

As for future aircraft, we'll see what they come out with.

[JohanGrön]

The F-35 has a full 360 degree off-bore capability, giving it a distinct advantage.

Distinct enough to be only marginally better than similar fighter planes in wvr according to LockMart, as I sourced (http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Defence-Weekly-2009/JSF-loses-edge-at-short-range-Lockheed-Martin-admits.html) to you in earlier posts ...

[Herman the II]

The F-35 has a full 360 degree off-bore capability, giving it a distinct advantage.


The F35 has? It may have that capability in the future, by now it has absolutely nothing of that sort...
Lets wait before LOAL missiles are actually integrated and tested with the F35 before we call it the next Wunderwaffe.

[LS1 Miata]

Distinct enough to be only marginally better than similar fighter planes in wvr according to LockMart, as I sourced (http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Defence-Weekly-2009/JSF-loses-edge-at-short-range-Lockheed-Martin-admits.html) to you in earlier posts ...


The F35 has? It may have that capability in the future, by now it has absolutely nothing of that sort...
Lets wait before LOAL missiles are actually integrated and tested with the F35 before we call it the next Wunderwaffe.

The AIM-9X is perfectly capable of doing a 180 degree turn even without DAS...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g4_jzqBJnA