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Zoomie
07-10-2009, 06:34 AM
Not So Fast With Those Electric Cars


Alternative Energy: A government report says reliance on electric cars will do little to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and may merely shift our dependence on foreign sources from one set of dictators to another. It's a beautiful theory — highways full of electric cars emitting no greenhouse gases or pollutants after being plugged into an outlet in our garages overnight. The problem, according to a new Government Accountability Office report, is that the effort may only shift the problem somewhere else.
"If you are using coal-fired power plants, and half the country's electricity comes from coal-powered plants, are you just trading one greenhouse gas emitter for another?" asks Mark Gaffigan, co-author of the GAO report. The report itself notes: "Reductions in CO2 emissions depend on generating electricity used to charge the vehicles from lower-emission sources of energy."
The GAO report says a plug-in compact car, if recharged at an outlet drawing its power from coal, provides a carbon dioxide savings of only 4% to 5%. If the feeling of saving the environment from driving an electric car causes people to drive more, that small amount of savings vanishes entirely.
It's much the same effect we saw when the Corporate Fuel Economy Standards were passed in the '70s. Aside from forcing us into less-safe downsized vehicles that increased highway fatalities, the promise of more miles per gallon caused people to drive more miles. The promised energy independence never materialized as we imported more foreign oil than ever before.
Okay, so how about a zero-emission source of electricity — nuclear power? The administration has done little to promote it beyond lip service. The administration recently killed the safest place on the planet to store what is erroneously called nuclear waste — at the nuclear repository that was being built at Yucca Mountain, Nev.
This "waste" is in the form of spent fuel rods the French and others have safely stored and reprocessed. These rods still contain most of their original energy and reprocessing them makes nuclear power renewable as well as pollution-free. The French get 80% of their electricity from nukes, and nobody in Paris glows in the dark.
They will have a place to plug in their electric cars, but right now we don't. The government is promoting solar and wind, which is fine if the sun is shining and the wind is blowing. Both have their own environmental drawbacks.
Both require huge amounts of land. Wind turbines tend to slice and dice birds, including endangered species. Solar panels of the size that might be competitive require huge amounts of water to clean. Water is a rare commodity in the areas the sun shines most — the arid land of the West and Southwest.
There are the hazards of the cars themselves. We don't yet fully comprehend the hazards to drivers, passengers and first responders after, say, a collision between an electric clown car and an 18-wheeler. Then there's a whole new problem of disposing of a new generation of batteries using lithium.
As for the lithium, Bolivia, under the thumb of its leftist leader Evo Morales, has about half the world's proven reserves. "The United States has supplies of lithium, but if demand for lithium exceeded domestic supplies," warns the GAO, "the U.S. could substitute reliance on one foreign source (oil) for another (lithium)."
Then there are environmental consequences. Just as coal and oil must be extracted from the earth, so must lithium. "Extracting lithium from locations where it is abundant, such as South America, could pose environmental challenges that would damage the ecosystem in this area."
While advertised as "zero emission," electric cars have their own set of issues. As physicist Amory Lovins once put it, "Zero-emission vehicles are actually 'elsewhere-emission' vehicles."
Source (http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/ArticlePrint.aspx?id=481690)

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void
07-10-2009, 07:19 AM
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What is the solution then? Alternatives must be found to petrol for transportation, it will not last forever. Electric cars have to be the future. There are alternatives to Lithium batteries, NiMH for example, hydrogen fuel cells, and others in the pipeline (carbon based batteries). Electric cars also provide the opportunity to reduce pollution by substituting coal power plants with nuclear/wind/hydro/solar, no such opportunity exists with petrol cars. Finally, electric cars allow the use of a KERS system, recharging when braking, which will gain in efficiency as the technology matures, no such solution is available to petrol based cars.

Macs.
07-10-2009, 08:17 AM
Nothing new.

This is known in the auto industry since decades. I have contact to a number of engineers at Mercedes and Porsche, people that actually work on hybrids and electro drive trains... Everyone will tell you that in it's current form it's not the future. It's a thing that is being done right now because the public/customer demands it. It's simply hip right now.

If there suddenly was a massive use of electric cars, there would be a massive front of problems. Starting with the power network.

Basillicus
07-10-2009, 08:37 AM
The way I see it the difference between electric cars and current fossil fuel cars is that electric car will run no matter how the electricity was generated. It can be generated in environment friendly or unfriendly way but it doesn't affect the car. Car that burns fossil fuels is always environment unfrienly and you can't do anything about it, so it doesn't help if we find out better ways to generate electricity, and they don't encourage development as much.

seraosha
07-10-2009, 10:02 AM
What exactly happened to the "fuel cell" that was getting so much press not so long ago?

SBL
07-10-2009, 10:11 AM
What exactly happened to the "fuel cell" that was getting so much press not so long ago?
Hydrogen does not occur in significant amounts in nature, so it has to be manufactured. The manufacture of hydrogen requires the use of more traditional forms of energy (i.e. fossil fuels) and generally costs more to make, energy-wise, than it can return.

AZZenny
07-10-2009, 10:54 AM
The way I see it the difference between electric cars and current fossil fuel cars is that electric car will run no matter how the electricity was generated. It can be generated in environment friendly or unfriendly way but it doesn't affect the car. Car that burns fossil fuels is always environment unfrienly and you can't do anything about it, so it doesn't help if we find out better ways to generate electricity, and they don't encourage development as much.

There you go -- the voice of brain cells in action -- a form of energy often lost in the politicking on this issue.

There are technological and biochem/biofuel and nanotech advances being made all the time. Get a well-functioning electric car and science will drive it in new directions, possibly dragging politics with it.

Mackie
07-10-2009, 11:37 AM
Nothing new.

This is known in the auto industry since decades. I have contact to a number of engineers at Mercedes and Porsche, people that actually work on hybrids and electro drive trains... Everyone will tell you that in it's current form it's not the future. It's a thing that is being done right now because the public/customer demands it. It's simply hip right now.

If there suddenly was a massive use of electric cars, there would be a massive front of problems. Starting with the power network.

And while the world talks about electric cars, boards at Stuttgarts University is still filled by Mercedes student research projects on fuel cells. p-)

Blue_0
07-10-2009, 12:11 PM
I don't care if my car is driven down the road by coal. I want an electric car to become independant from OPEC. We will be shifting from a foriegn dictator to a domestic producer that has to abide by our laws. Way better long term.

-- Bluelight

Macs.
07-10-2009, 12:21 PM
And while the world talks about electric cars, boards at Stuttgarts University is still filled by Mercedes student research projects on fuel cells. p-)

Exactly. But still Mercedes has to bog out a Hybrid now, it's simply what the public wants.

redvand
07-10-2009, 12:49 PM
Exactly. But still Mercedes has to bog out a Hybrid now, it's simply what the public wants.

If Hybrids are so "popular", why do SUVs and pickup trucks outsell them 2 to 1. And why did Toyoto cancel their new hybrid plant?

lt tahoe
07-10-2009, 01:18 PM
It's not necessarily all about lower emissions; reduced oil consumption is a big one. Most people don't seem to realize that plastics are generally derived from oil; if we burn it all up fueling vehicles, we can't drive OR make plastics anymore. An exaggeration, I know, but a necessary distinction.

Macs.
07-10-2009, 02:20 PM
If Hybrids are so "popular", why do SUVs and pickup trucks outsell them 2 to 1. And why did Toyoto cancel their new hybrid plant?

Toyota's Prius has been a hot seller in bad times.

Pickups and SUVs can be hybrids, too... :roll:

The Hybrid trend is just in the beginning right now, and market research simply shows that people want this right now.

PEMM
07-10-2009, 03:08 PM
Electric cars with nuclear energy, in hundred years fusion energy, is the best option. Together with improving railways.

PS: Hybrids are crap.

Alpheus
07-10-2009, 03:12 PM
Hydrogen does not occur in significant amounts in nature, so it has to be manufactured. The manufacture of hydrogen requires the use of more traditional forms of energy (i.e. fossil fuels) and generally costs more to make, energy-wise, than it can return.

And not to mention that the most feasible method involves producing the hydrogen directly from hydrocarbons.

deagle
07-10-2009, 03:51 PM
ehh, electric cars still have problems, but every car-type needs field experience.

i think tesla's the only pure electric car, so we'll see how that works.

ppl laughed when they introduced gas-operated cars to phase-out horse-drawn vehicles, so who knows whats in store for our future.

LS1 Miata
07-10-2009, 04:27 PM
Lithium ion batteries are more expensive compared to NiMH batteries. They are more expensive to replace and far too expensive to be used in a practical application (the Telsa has a range of 250 miles, but the damn thing costs $100,000).

The 2nd generation EV-1 was powered by NiMH batteries, and had a maximum range of over 220 miles. This was 10 years ago. Today, cars like the Prius and Volt would struggle to get 30-40 miles out of a Li-Ion battery pack, while costing twice as much.

The EV-1 out-performes the Chevy Volt in just about every catagory, all while using inferior technology, and for half the price. It's pretty sad.

AZZenny
07-10-2009, 04:33 PM
My understanding is that battery science/tech is a major research focus in Israel and a couple other places, because the one who builds a light-weight, reasonably-priced, long-lasting new type of battery will be a gazillionaire.

WarriorMonk
07-10-2009, 04:54 PM
first they said the world's wars will be about oil...now the wars will be for metal and water...

Mousepad
07-10-2009, 05:05 PM
Well problem can be solved by building a crapload of Nuclear electrostations, for example in China, so all western Greenies can feel good "being_the_part_of_the_solution" and palm down all guilt on Chicoms, pfft the did't sign any pollution protocol. Also bury nuke waste in Africa, and let douche Bono cry a river for it.

http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m377/mousepad_2008/68a319acd0b4f5e5420d68f4623fa767.jpg

LS1 Miata
07-10-2009, 05:08 PM
Speaking of South Park and transportation...

http://www.geocities.com/matrionix/it.JPG

Mousepad
07-10-2009, 05:17 PM
Speaking of South Park and transportation...

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/5771/garrisonsitnv4.png

Well, lately on gas stations, and airlines, i don't think it's a humiliating idea after all :)

DaGreatRV
07-10-2009, 05:46 PM
About those batteries, I come atleast once a month across reports of new innovations in battery technology.

Last week for instance researchers at St. Andrews in Scotland created a prototype Lithium-Air cell. Which uses a porous carbon electrode.
It acchieves an energy density of 4000mAh/g (grams of electrode material)
While the battery in your mobile phone will be about 500mAh/g.
Though it will take about 5 years before it can be put to commercial use.

Macs.
07-10-2009, 10:19 PM
i think tesla's the only pure electric car, so we'll see how that works.

You couldn't say anything more wrong than this.

Around 100 years ago there were more electric cars on the road, than ones that were powered by fossil fuel. There have been hundreds of electric cars models before.

The first electric cars have been produced in the 19th century. (!!!)

It's simply that back then fossil fuel was the better choice, and years of dedication and billions and billions and billions went into making the gasoline engine as efficient as it is today. Now, if electric engines/cars made the run back then, the world would look different today.

The development the electric car has made over the last, let's say 30 years, is simply laughable.

budgie
07-11-2009, 12:03 AM
For a 5% cut it's still worth it

Besides this GAO report is being incredibly pessimistic: all of this electric power will be coal-generated? Surely there are plans to reduce dependency on coal as well? The emission cut will be negated by more time spent on the road? I doubt that people will ever drive anymore than they need to just because they suddenly feel it's 'greener'.