Bullpup rifles and transitioning from right to left hand shooting

[junglejim]

At the sake of being accused as an airsofter asking stupid questions:

When firing from cover and one has to fire from your weak hand, do you transition with bullpups or do you just stick with firing from your dominant hand and then just exposing more of your body to take a better aim?

There is an ongoing discussion among friends on the disadvantages of bullpups, mainly the Stehyr in the Philippine Army settings and this is one of the major drawbacks being highlighted. Wherein in the M-16 variants, transitioning from right to left hand shooting can be easily done without fear of a spent casing in your face, the Stehyr AUG's would be a different matter?

Sorry have no extensive experience with bullpup rifles, hence I'm asking here. Hopefully from guys who have used it in service or such type of rifle.

Thanks!

[StuRat]

The casings from an AUG eject at face level on the opposite side of the rifle, if you were to swap hands, then you would get brass in your face. The transition from a right to left/ left to right rifle requires a bolt change and to swap the ejection port cover over to the other side.

Some bullpups have the ejection port located in a different place, and wouldn't affect the shooter as much.

[2/1kiwi]

with the AUG you can fire on your non master side by tilting the weapon down, brass will be ejected downwards and not in your mask.

[Soldat_Américain]

Well let's see I had an interesting experience with this last week when we went into the field(my last ex with the French pals), some numb nuts issued me a left handed FAMAS with the ejection cover on the wrong side...you just changed the order of three parts and she can become right or left handed weapon...it jammed and I had no idea why and a round got stuck while ejecting on an assault. Handed it off and binome just switched the ejection cover so I was either firing my FAMAS left handed or right handed but on my left shoulder. It was very interesting, the rounds seem to eject at either your 3 or nine o'clock so if I tried firing on my dominant shoulder I had a few rounds in my face.

[junglejim]

Thank's guys!

Stu: Yes, agree that you would basically have to breakdown a rifle, however this is not advisable in a fire fight, no?

2/1Kiwi: Thats the answer I was looking for, basically how the users have adopted to this handicap, if I can call it as such. So just a slight adjustment would be needed, right? Since the sights would be inside the cover, right?

i guess a picture of the situation would help:

in this two picts I simpley switch from right to left, with no issue really on my M-16.

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/4844/ceb.jpg (http://img528.imageshack.us/i/ceb.jpg/)

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/9012/ceb2.jpg (http://img190.imageshack.us/i/ceb2.jpg/)

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/ceb2.jpg/1/w604.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img190/ceb2.jpg/1/)

By transitioning to my left hand instead of retaining the rifle in my dominant hand I can engage the target, while maintaining minimal exposure. If done in a Stehyr, if done the same an tilting the weapon, then one needs a lil bit more exposure to for the sights, amd I correct? But at least minimal exposure than keeping the dominant hand. (ignore the damn chicken winging, im learning hehe)

hope the picture helps.

[GazB]

in this two picts I simpley switch from right to left, with no issue really on my M-16.

Well it is because there is a cost. The M16 is rather long and the Steyr AUG is about the same length as an M4 but with a barrel length like an M16.

There are quite a few newer bullpups that eject empty shells forward so they can be fired left or right handed with no adjustment.
The F2000 is one rifle and the A-91 is another that have the ejection port forward so you can shoot left or right handed without problems and without having to change anything.

[junglejim]

Well it is because there is a cost. The M16 is rather long and the Steyr AUG is about the same length as an M4 but with a barrel length like an M16.

There are quite a few newer bullpups that eject empty shells forward so they can be fired left or right handed with no adjustment.
The F2000 is one rifle and the A-91 is another that have the ejection port forward so you can shoot left or right handed without problems and without having to change anything.


Thanks, Gaz! and agree on the newer types fixing this problem. So I guess to the users of the AUG, Kiwi's reply would be the way to deal with this problem.

Thanks to those who replied.

[SMGLee]

cant the shoulder, tuck in your elbow and shoot the support side cover with your strong hand shooting stance. this was taught to me by some Eurotrash guys that have some time on the AUG...LOL Slightly more exposed, but its easier, quicker and still provide ample cover.

[Britboy]

I've never fired from the left shoulder (having used L85s which are fired from your right shoulder, and then GPMGs which are not exactly peeking-round-corners sort of weapons system), but I can't imagine firing from the left is much good to you anyway. I mean how accurate are you really going to be like that? You'd probably have to train extensively to get anywhere near quick and accurate on your non-dominant side, and I'm willing to bet that time would be better spent using your rifle from your dominant side and accepting that there will be a bit less cover but more accuracy that way.

I think L85s can be shot from the left shoulder but a different rifle/conversion kit is needed, it was aimed at left-handed soldiers rather than FIBUA but was never really taken up by the MoD.

[junglejim]

I've never fired from the left shoulder (having used L85s which are fired from your right shoulder, and then GPMGs which are not exactly peeking-round-corners sort of weapons system), but I can't imagine firing from the left is much good to you anyway. I mean how accurate are you really going to be like that? You'd probably have to train extensively to get anywhere near quick and accurate on your non-dominant side, and I'm willing to bet that time would be better spent using your rifle from your dominant side and accepting that there will be a bit less cover but more accuracy that way.

I think L85s can be shot from the left shoulder but a different rifle/conversion kit is needed, it was aimed at left-handed soldiers rather than FIBUA but was never really taken up by the MoD.

If I may ask, so there no training for such transitions in the British Army then, am I correct? Im not questioning the training or doctrine, I just wanted to kow if the Bullpup users encountered such an issue and did something to remedy it.

As for non dominant side shooting, yes it tends to be awkward, however with some practice I've seen guys in the reserves unit here in the Philippines master it and pull off quick accurate shoots. Don't really know how big of an impact it has in combat scenario since I've never been in such a scenario, but it can be done.

[Britboy]

I really shouldn't go into details of training, even at such a low level, so I hope you understand if I don't answer that particular question. Plus there is no knowing how doctrine changes over time since I last did it, or even from unit to unit depending on the instructors I should think.

It just personally seems to be not-the-wisest use of the rifle to me, with the caveats on my lack of experience with this mentioned earlier; but if you find it works, then by all means crack on - I will have to get my old air rifle into my left shoulder I think :p

[junglejim]

I really shouldn't go into details of training, even at such a low level, so I hope you understand if I don't answer that particular question. Plus there is no knowing how doctrine changes over time since I last did it, or even from unit to unit depending on the instructors I should think.

It just personally seems to be not-the-wisest use of the rifle to me, with the caveats on my lack of experience with this mentioned earlier; but if you find it works, then by all means crack on - I will have to get my old air rifle into my left shoulder I think :p


Understood. Yeah, it takes sometime to get used to. I still feel weird when I use my left hand, and true I did miss the distant target on that pict I posted. However, it was only my second time to do such type of shooting, the other did it effortlessly but those guys shoot 3 times a week.

[martinexsquaddie]

being left handed and left eye dominant.
I could shoot and pass the apwt right or left handed.
unless you practise a lot weak handed shoulder you not going to hit anything using the wrong shoulder.
so not really an issue it sucks but so does a lot of things in the military.

[Connaught Ranger]

The casings from an AUG eject at face level on the opposite side of the rifle, if you were to swap hands, then you would get brass in your face. The transition from a right to left/ left to right rifle requires a bolt change and to swap the ejection port cover over to the other side.

Some bullpups have the ejection port located in a different place, and wouldn't affect the shooter as much.

The Irish took one version of the AUG to replace the 7.62mm FN / SLR, the version for right handers,

Left hander's had to get used to using it that way as there were no

variation bought for the left hander, (the Government being to tight arsed

to pay for variations) my twin was a left hander, initially bitched about

it but got used to it in the end.

Connaught Ranger:)

[StuRat]

The Irish took one version of the AUG to replace the 7.62mm FN / SLR, the version for right handers,

Left hander's had to get used to using it that way as there were no

variation bought for the left hander, (the Government being to tight arsed

to pay for variations) my twin was a left hander, initially bitched about

it but got used to it in the end.

Connaught Ranger:)

Are you serious? It's the same stock, and a fairly in expensive bolt to change it over. We've just been drawing weapons and cleaning them, trying to clear a left handed weapon confuses you for a sec :)

[Connaught Ranger]

Are you serious? It's the same stock, and a fairly in expensive bolt to change it over. We've just been drawing weapons and cleaning them, trying to clear a left handed weapon confuses you for a sec :)


Yes, I am serious in the plastic stock, the right-side corresponding ejection port area was not cut out, so no possibility to change over.

Connaught Ranger.

[pretorian669]

Here is my take on the subject from another thread...


People often bring up the weak side issue as one of the major draw backs of bullpup rifles. People often think it's GOD's gift to CQB and refer to this technique as one you can not live without. The fact is it is ONE tool in the toolbox and just like any other tool it has advantages, disadvantages and alternatives.

Advantages:
You expose less of your body to incoming fire and you are better protected by armor plates from incoming fire.

Disadvantages:
Shooting from weak side is not trivial. You'll be aiming with your non dominant eye. There will be a difference between your zero (that is for your right eye) and the point of impact while aiming with your non dominant (left) eye. While you can learn the differences at different ranges, it takes a lot of training. During combat situations your accuracy will be already reduced by about 30% because of stress.
Add to that the fact that your trigger will be operated by your non dominant hand. Can you achieve a decent trigger pull with your weak hand? Yes, you can but again keep in mind that you'll have to practice it a lot.
The same is true about your shooting stance. The fact that you can achieve a stable shooting stance (standing, kneeling, squatting, sitting, ****e etc.) while shooting strong side does not mean automatically that you can do it while shooting from weak side. Again you'll have to train for it. Train for it a lot.

You'll also have to think about your equipment:

Will my armor vest/load bearing equipment allow me to shoulder the rifle quickly in my left shoulder?

Will my sling?

Will my radio's headset?

How will I manipulate the safety, charging handle, magazine release, and bolt release while I'm shooting weak side?

How will I clear malfunctions? Will I try to clear them from weak side or will I move back to strong side.

How will I transition to a secondary weapon (handgun) while shooting from weak side?

How will I turn on/off my lights and lasers?

You'll have to carefully think about all that in order to effectively employ weak side shooting.

What about bullpups and weak side shooting?
There are bullpups that eject forward or downward an allow shooting from both shoulders.
The FN P90 ejects downward but it isn't an assault rifle.
The Kel-tec RFB ejects forward but it isn't an assault rifle.

The FN F2000 and the Russian A-91 are bullpup assault rifles that eject spent cases forward thus allowing shooting from both shoulders.
The Magpull PDR will have a switch to allow ejection from either left or right.

Are those the only bullpups that can be fired from both shoulders?
No.
While not optimal, it is possible to fire other bullpups from weak side.

The Australians do it with their AUG's and the French with their FAMAS.
The technique is to turn the weapon about 45° to the right. This way you can avoid being hit in the face/eye by spent cases. Here's a picture of two French operators doing this technique. They are both right handed and their weapons are configured to right side ejection.

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/TAVOR/aao.sized.jpeg

Other creative improvisation is seen here made by a left handed Canadian Tavor owner who decided not to wait anymore for the importer to get left hand bolts.

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/TAVOR/aap.jpg

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/TAVOR/aaq.jpg

Other technique is to simply "suck it up". By that I mean being hit by some spent cases, while not very nice, it isn't the end of the world either. It happens sometimes anyways from cases returning from walls or courtesy of your team mates. Wearing a hood and eye protection (which you should be doing in CQB anyway) can help too.

If my life was on the line and I would have decided that shooting from weak shoulder is the only way to go I would rather eat some hot brass than eat some hot lead.

P.S. Some of these techniques if not executed properly may induce stoppages by blocking the ejection port or by ejected cases bouncing back in to the action.

[2/1kiwi]

the french pic in the above post is what i meant by canting the weapon in my previous post and i have never seen a fully left handed steyr in NZ, bolt and ejection port yes but the soldier still needs to reach over or under to action the weapon

[junglejim]

Oh my god, the thread response is way better than expected. Thanks a lot guys.

2/1 Kiwi: I figured thats how you do it from your description
Pretorian: Thanks for the picts. May I use your picts in another thread?

Thanks!

[0497]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUnaHXok2TM

[StuRat]

the french pic in the above post is what i meant by canting the weapon in my previous post and i have never seen a fully left handed steyr in NZ, bolt and ejection port yes but the soldier still needs to reach over or under to action the weapon

I had a lefty in my room through basic, no offense to him, but trying to **** the weapon looked awkward.

[Flagg]

I had a lefty in my room through basic, no offense to him, but trying to **** the weapon looked awkward.

A couple good mates who are in are lefties....it looks a bit goofy when a lefty is doing stoppage drills, but they seem to work around their handicap.....a bit like gingas :)

[Slouch]

It's a pity they never did the Brit thing of just forcing everyone to shoot right handed.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUnaHXok2TM

Haha so much for a demo of shooting weak handed. The first time, at 1.01 caused a stoppage, looked like the ejected casing got blocked coming out, and the second time at 1.10 I don't even think he had the weapon in his shoulder.

[DocFrench]

Hot brass sucks way less than hot lead, for sure. Had M-2 firing with MILES over my head while driving a 113, everytime he shot between 9 & 10 o'clock I got hot .50 brass down my hatch.:roll:

[DocFrench]

We had limits on up and down, depressing the barrel, but no firing angle limits with blanks... live fire was done with the driver buttoned up. Of course it was 20+ yrs ago at Ft. McCoy, Wis so I could be wrong.

[colonel havok]

The have been two incidents that I am aware of, one very recently involving a Brit Army cadet, of using an L85A2 left handed. Both having their left cheek ripped open by the cocking handle moving back when fired!

[shuredgefan]

I think that this transition problem is the primary reason the SF portion of many bullpup using militaries carry conventional layout guns, mostly M4-types with some SIGs and G36s thrown in.