Suspected Israeli spies plead guilty to passport fraud

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Israeli agents behind bars

03.07.2004
By BERNARD ORSMAN and EUGENE BINGHAM
Two men believed by senior Government figures to be Israeli secret service agents are behind bars after pleading guilty in the High Court at Auckland yesterday to a charge of trying to obtain a false New Zealand passport.

Lawyers for Urie Zoshe Kelman and Eli Cara did not seek bail when the alleged Mossad agents entered guilty pleas on a single charge of participating in an organised crime group in an attempt to unlawfully obtain a New Zealand passport with Zev William Barkan, 37, and a fourth, unknown, person.

Police concede Barkan has fled the country, and the fourth person has never been identified.

Justice Judith Potter remanded Kelman, 30, and Cara, 50, in custody for sentencing on July 15.

The charge carries a maximum penalty of five years in jail.

The change of plea was a surprise, but it emerged after the hearing that the men had indicated to police and prosecution lawyers several days ago that they wished to admit the offence.

Prosecutor Fletcher Pilditch said the crown had agreed to lay an amended indictment with one charge instead of the three they had faced.

Cara, who has been staying at Auckland's President Plaza hotel since the Weekend Herald broke the spy scandal in April, turned up at court yesterday wearing a dark suit, white shirt and blue tie.

Kelman, 30, wore a balaclava to court to hide his face. A tall, slim man with freckles, short red hair and glasses in April, he had dramatically changed his appearance. He sported a pitch-black beard, black hair and wore a dark suit and scarf and came prepared with a blue backpack.

Before being escorted away by court security staff, the two men shook hands with an unknown Israeli. Cara gave a smile and a wink.

The group of four had been in and out of the country since November last year. Cara has travelled in and out 24 times since October 2000.

The Auckland District Court heard in April the visits last year were to obtain a false New Zealand identity for Barkan. They made a passport application using a birth certificate of a cerebral palsy sufferer who authorities say was an innocent victim of the scam.

Justice Potter yesterday granted the victim permanent name suppression.

A police source told the Weekend Herald that officers were concerned the group might have used the scam to obtain other passports.

The head of the inquiry, Detective Inspector Bruce Good, said he was pleased that the men had changed their plea, even though they had only faced up to the one count.

He praised Internal Affairs and police staff involved in the operation.

"Hopefully it might deter others from trying to come to New Zealand to obtain passports. We treat our passport very, very seriously," said Mr Good.

He refused to comment on the alleged Mossad links.




The spies who stole my name

03.07.2004
By BRIDGET CARTER, EUGENE BINGHAM and PHIL TAYLOR
An Auckland family have told how their tetraplegic son's identity was stolen by an Israeli secret agent who moved in just down the road.

Zev Barkan, who has fled New Zealand and escaped the justice faced yesterday by his two co-accused spies, lived within 300m of the man in whose name he applied for a passport to assume a New Zealand identity.

"Barkan lived in the street next door to where [the victim] was living," said his father, speaking exclusively to the Weekend Herald.

"He must have been able to see all these handicapped people going around in wheelchairs. I don't know if that is relevant or coincidence."

The story of the handicapped man caught up in the spy story emerged yesterday after two men pleaded guilty to a charge of trying to obtain a false New Zealand passport.

Urie Kelman and Eli Cara were remanded in custody and will be sentenced on July 15.

Mystery still surrounds how the spies selected their victim, who lives in care.

The family - whose identity is suppressed - were drawn into the world of international intrigue when a Department of Internal Affairs officer, Ian Tingey, rang them in March asking if their son had applied for a passport and had travel plans.

The victim, who is his 30s and has cerebral palsy due to brain damage at birth, is in no state to do either.

"[My son] is quite intelligent, he just can't speak, can't toilet or feed himself," said the father. "He is a person in his own right. He lives in his own world and most of it is in his head - he can't talk to you and me.

"He has a fully operational brain - he was writing plays when he was about 11 or 12."

He communicates by using a device with a protruding connection which is attached to his head. He uses it to tap onto a computer pad and can thereby slowly type.

Mr Tingey became suspicious about a passport application made in the victim's name after a phone call from a well-spoken man who claimed to be the applicant and was seeking to speed up the process.

The caller faxed through a travel itinerary and ticketing information to help the process. But Mr Tingey had noted the caller had what he thought was an underlying Canadian or American accent.

On March 19, Mr Tingey contacted the victim's father and was told the applicant could not be his son.

"When we first heard about it, we thought goodness gracious, how outrageous," said the father. "How the hell have they got hold of our details?"

The victim himself treats it in a minor way, his father said.

When Barkan applied for the passport, he used the victim's birth certificate, which had been applied for using the victim's mother's name.

She is no longer married to the victim's father and has lived in Britain for two years working with cerebral palsy victims.

"They used her married name, which she hasn't used for God knows how long, and they also used her middle name, which she has never answered to," said the father. The mother flew out from Britain to see if she could help with police inquiries, but there was nothing she could add as to why her son was selected.

"It's great the police have caught these guys but it still doesn't answer the questions of how and why they targeted him," said the father.

When Internal Affairs informed the police about its suspicions, a covert operation began.

Detectives uncovered details of four people, their movements in and out of the country, where they stayed, cars they rented.

The men were Kelman, Cara, Barkan and a fourth person, whose identity police have not discovered.

The police summary of facts lists the occupations of the three as unknown, but senior Government figures believe they are agents for Mossad, Israel's secret service.

The guilty plea came suddenly, after a fast-tracked depositions hearing and extraordinary efforts by Kelman to avoid being photographed by the media.

Kelman and Cara claimed not to know each other or Barkan but police say inquiries reveal otherwise.

There were calls made between cellphones found in the possession of Kelman and Cara, and keys to a car rented by Barkan were found in Kelman's possession.

The defendants have claimed they met Barkan by chance and were merely good Samaritans helping someone. They initially denied knowing there was anything illegal in what they or Barkan did.

Soon after beginning inquiries, police learned that Cara particularly was a regular visitor to New Zealand, having travelled here 24 times between October 2000 and March 2004. He used two Israeli passports, the second a replacement.

Cara claimed to be a travel agent and to operate a Sydney travel agency. But inquiries by the Weekend Herald indicate it does not exist - or if it does, it operated illegally.

Barkan appears to have come to New Zealand with the purpose of illegally obtaining a New Zealand passport using an assumed identity.

He first came here, according to the police summary of facts, in November 2003, travelling on a United States passport which identified him as an Israeli.

Later that month, Barkan visited a doctor's surgery in Lynfield, using the victim's name.

On December 3, Barkan left the country. The next day Internal Affairs received an order for a birth certificate in the victim's name. This was processed and the certificate sent to the Auckland post office box number supplied.

Barkan, Cara and Kelman all travelled in and out of New Zealand during December, apparently working on the passport scam.

In March, all three returned to New Zealand. On March 6, Barkan rented an inner-city apartment on a short-term agreement in St Paul St.

Six days later he returned to the Lynfield doctor complaining of a minor ailment. Barkan told GP Keith Way to witness his passport application, telling him it was needed urgently as he was soon to marry in Australia. The doctor filled out the form.

On March 13 an urgent application for a passport was lodged with Internal Affairs in Wellington. With it was a genuine birth certificate and a passport-sized photograph of Barkan. Cara left New Zealand that day. Barkan left a week later.

Kelman stayed in Auckland, where on a Kiwi International Hotel registration form he entered the same vehicle which records indicate was rented to Barkan. This was March 21, the day police began their sting.

Cara and Kelman were arrested on March 23, after plainclothes police watched as the passport was delivered. According to the police summary, the day began with a male caller refusing to pick up the passport in person and requesting it be delivered to Travcour, a Queen St company specialising in travel documentation. Undercover police made the delivery.

About 1.25pm Travcour received a telephone request from a male caller that the package containing the passport be couriered to the St Paul's address at which Barkan had rented an apartment earlier in the month.

Undercover police again made the delivery. The apartment manager told them that an ex-tenant (Barkan) had phoned requesting permission for a package to be delivered to the office and asking that he be phoned when it arrived.

A detective noticed a person - whom he later identified as Cara - at a cafe across the road monitoring movements. About 2.35pm the manager was contacted. He confirmed the package had arrived. The caller told him a taxi would pick it up. At 2.38pm a call was made from Cara's phone to one used by Barkan.

An Alert taxi arrived at 3pm and, watched by Cara, the driver picked up the package. The taxi driver was told to go to a Freemans Bay location.

There Kelman was waiting.

"On seeing plainclothes police, Kelman hid his cellphone in bushes then walked swiftly from his observation area," a prosecutor told the court. Soon after, Kelman's phone began to ring. A policeman retrieved it and answered it. It was the taxi driver saying he had arrived.

A former Mossad spy living in New Zealand has said he suspects the agency is behind the scam.

He said New Zealand passports were prized by spy agencies, particularly Israel's, because they didn't arouse the suspicion of border officials, particularly in the Arab world which regarded the New Zealand as sympathetic to Palestinians.

If the men were Mossad, he said, it was unlikely to be the first time the spy agency had tried to get New Zealand passports.



PM prepares for diplomatic sequel

03.07.2004


The end of the court case against two alleged Israeli spies is likely to have a diplomatic sequel.

Urie Kelman and Eli Cara probably pleaded guilty to the passport charge to limit damage and prevent the Crown producing diplomatically embarrassing proof that the defendants belonged to the Israeli secret service, Mossad, and that it was engaged in criminal acts in New Zealand.

Prime Minister Helen Clark would make no comment last night. Her spokesman said she would not speak until after the pair were sentenced on July 15.

After that, there will be "strong and public response", Helen Clark told the Herald in April.

The least that the Government could expect is an apology and private assurance from the Israelis that New Zealand passports will never again be sought or used by Mossad agents.

It is believed that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has wanted the Government to take a cautious approach but, at least until now, that advice has not been followed by politicians.

The Government is also still mindful of the resentment felt by New Zealanders over the Rainbow Warrior affair and the disdain shown to this country by the French.

Not only did French agents blow up the Greenpeace vessel but their Government welched on an agreement to detain the convicted agents on Hao Atoll instead of in a New Zealand prison.

The Government is not likely to want to be seen as capitulating again in this way.


July the 15th will be an interesting news day..........

[usa320]

what is to be spied on in New Zealand?

[kinghk]

what is to be spied on in New Zealand?

Stupid remark.

Although they wanted passports from New Zealand does not mean that they wanted to spy there, but perhaps have the ability to travel around the world disguised as a tourist from New Zealand.

[Moledet]

Heh, Israeli spies. :D You have no news over there so you make them up.
"The spies who stole my name" LOL, that one killed me.
I mean, ofcourse if an Israeli try to get himself an illegal passport than he is probably a spy :roll:
If they were spies, they would never take the risk, the mossad can create excellent fake passports in Israel.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

moledet wrote,

Heh, Israeli spies. You have no news over there so you make them up.
"The spies who stole my name" LOL, that one killed me.
I mean, ofcourse if an Israeli try to get himself an illegal passport than he is probably a spy
If they were spies, they would never take the risk, the mossad can create excellent fake passports in Israel.

That must be why the Israeli government put such heavy pressure on the NZ government to release these two before the story went public in April. Too bad for them they can't push everyone around, eh.

[IDFM203]

Yes great, those articles merely show that you have some Israelis that plead guilty to fraud, that’s all, the proof that they were spies is ??? where??? :roll:

Oh and like before when we had this conversation, I am not saying they aren’t or that they are, just we have no proof and there are plenty of other plausible scenarios on who and what kind of individuals these are, till we have proof, I suggest they don’t be refered to as spies.


Heh, Israeli spies. :D You have no news over there so you make them up.
"The spies who stole my name" LOL, that one killed me.
I mean, ofcourse if an Israeli try to get himself an illegal passport than he is probably a spy :roll:
If they were spies, they would never take the risk, the mossad can create excellent fake passports in Israel.I agree with you, I mean this seems so amateur that I find it hard to believe they were Mossad spies, I mean the Mossad wouldn’t need to do this, they can, like other spy agencies do, make them themselvs.

Anyways my view is this, if they are spies, then indeed its an embarrassment (hell this seems like even I, who is untrained in spying, can get away with if I tried ;) ) and we should apologize (though I would understand if it was done privetly and not publicly, that’s IF they were spies), however if they were not spies and if they are just from organized crime, as is a possibility with connection to all sorts of Russian mafias that also do this sort of thing and also operate out of Israel (and from other nations) or in some other connection unrealted to stae affaires, well perhaps I would like to see a apology from those that insinuate so clearly that they were spies when they weren’t.

Basically, I guess I as well would love to see the New Zealand authorities show us the evidence on how they are spies, for now all I see is basic speculation based on mere conjecture from them and the media there and that’s it.



moledet wrote,

Heh, Israeli spies. You have no news over there so you make them up.
"The spies who stole my name" LOL, that one killed me.
I mean, ofcourse if an Israeli try to get himself an illegal passport than he is probably a spy
If they were spies, they would never take the risk, the mossad can create excellent fake passports in Israel.

That must be why the Israeli government put such heavy pressure on the NZ government to release these two before the story went public in April.First, can you show me this fact (put heavy pressure) and secondly what kind of pressure did the Israeli government allegedly put?

Secondly yes a normal amount of pressure is indeed expected and I believe that’s normal in all nations, for that’s because even if non spies, they are Israelis citizens and yes I would hope that the Israeli government would get involved and ask for the release or at least put up a good defense of its citizens, as is normal when citizens of other nations are arrested in those nations and usually those governments through its embassies or diplomatic houses does get involved.


So far everything normal (Unless you can be more specifc on what kind of “heavy” pressure we are talking about here), even for people that are not spies.


Too bad for them they can't push everyone around, eh. :roll: What a idiotic and absurd statement and frankly I expect better from you :roll: ......even if we disagree on things, I usually find you to be measured and reasonable (and I actually usually enjoy your postings ;) ), not like how this statement here where frankly with its rudeness and snide way can be interpreted with all sorts of hidden insinuations and agendas that frankly I thought that you were above.


Anyways as always,

Shalom :D

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

IDFM203 wrote,

Yes great, those articles merely show that you have some Israelis that plead guilty to fraud, that’s all, the proof that they were spies is ??? where???

Calm down, I didn't write the articles and I didn't make any judgement either way, at least in the initial post. It just adds more information is all.




Oh and like before when we had this conversation, I am not saying they aren’t or that they are, just we have no proof and there are plenty of other plausible scenarios on who and what kind of individuals these are, till we have proof, I suggest they don’t be refered to as spies.

Exactly, which is why I wrote 15th July will be an interesting news day.


First, can you show me this fact (put heavy pressure) and secondly what kind of pressure did the Israeli government allegedly put?

I know how this will sound, but if I were to release that info i'd be in the ****.


What a idiotic and absurd statement and frankly I expect better from you ......even if we disagree on things, I usually find you to be measured and reasonable (and I actually usually enjoy your postings ), not like how this statement here where frankly with its rudeness and snide way can be interpreted with all sorts of hidden insinuations and agendas that frankly I thought that you were above.

Yeah, that was a little over the top, but moledet strikes me as one of those annoying ****s who makes definitive statements without personal experience or factual knowledge. ie, insinuating that this news is made up. I would hazard a guess he wouldn't say that if the situation was reversed.
I apologise if I offended you.

Moledet on the other hand can get ****ed.

[Tane Angle]

Let's watch the insults ok? Also, there's no need to get real defensive about espionage accusations. Pretty much everyone does it to pretty much everyone else, and slip ups are part of it all. No body likes it when their passports are faked though, as it puts actual citizens of whatever country the passports are supposed to be from at risk in whatever country the passports are used in. But perhaps they are not spies, perhaps they are organized crime or something else. Let's not start message board flame wars over it, ok?

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Flagg]

July the 15th will be an interesting news day..........

Hopefully official comment will be something juicy like out of Shortland Street :P

Until then I ain't sayin' nothin' :roll:

[Javehn]

That must be why the Israeli government put such heavy pressure on the NZ government to release these two before the story went public in April. Too bad for them they can't push everyone around, eh.

Give me a ****ing break :roll:

Those people connected to crime and nothing more . Period .

Mossad can afford to make itself their own passports . And ussually Mosad don't send people who barely speak English with Israeli accent .

Think about it .

Or it makes you so prowd that you cought "Mossad agents" , that everything else is out of order ? If those are Mossad Agents , then I am a Super ****ing man .

[IDFM203]

IDFM203 wrote,
[quote]Yes great, those articles merely show that you have some Israelis that plead guilty to fraud, that’s all, the proof that they were spies is ??? where???

Calm down, I didn't write the articles and I didn't make any judgement either way, at least in the initial post. It just adds more information is all. Well calm or not, its irritating to see clear insinuations that they are spies when yet we haven’t seen one shred of proof that they are!! :roll:

Secondly its also irritating to see the outcry here when frankly even if they were spies its not as if it’s a practice done only by the Mossad, for IMO I believe most western nations do it and I even contend a lot even get caught (or a lot of governments know about it clearly) but of course anything involving Israel needs to get waaaaaaaaaaaaaay blown out of proportion or that to have it sound like its something only unique to the Mossad :roll:

And lastly, yes you say you didn’t write the articles, well sir, you posted them, that’s as if your endorsing what’s written, so please none of this hiding behind I didn’t wrote it, for its clear by you posting it that you do buy most everything written there and frankly I see nothing but mere conjecture and speculation and noting else and certainly nothing there that shows those Israelis were working on behalf of the Israeli government……nothing!!


Exactly, which is why I wrote 15th July will be an interesting news day. Yes I agree and we should wait till then and I too want to see what the NZ government has to show.



First, can you show me this fact (put heavy pressure) and secondly what kind of pressure did the Israeli government allegedly put?

I know how this will sound, but if I were to release that info i'd be in the ****. ok I got you, however like I said I do feel some pressure is normal as per any foreign government taking normal pressure action on behalf of its citizens, even non-spies that are arrested in foreign lands, so I guess the question is was it heavy normal pressure or heavy excessive un-normal pressure and frankly I guess you wont tell me but something tells me it wasn’t anything out of the ordinary for those type of situations and I mean for non-spies.


I apologise if I offended you. No need for an apology to me but yes I do appreciate it since you have given one, for yes you might be troubled by this incident, but even if they were spies, the previous comment IMO was unwarranted and I am glad you recognize that.

Boy this is what this forum should de about; even in disagreement at least we can try to keep things civil ;) :D


Mossad can afford to make itself their own passports . And ussually Mosad don't send people who barely speak English with Israeli accent .

Think about it .

Good point my friend :D

Like I said if they were then indeed it is a huge embarrassment, but I find it very hard to believe that they were for all sorts of reasons, one of which you have just mentioned.


Shalom :D

[Flagg]

Give me a f*** break

Oy.....


Those people connected to crime and nothing more . Period .

Using IDFM203's suggestion of going with the facts, you KNOW this HOW?


Mossad can afford to make itself their own passports .

Changes have recently been made with NZ passports regarding security and authenticity......ONLY the holders of the recent issue passports are able to enjoy the continued benefit of Visa free travel....holders of the previous generation passports are required to obtain either a new passport or a travel visa....even the vaunted Mossad is unable to just snap it's fingers and magically reproduce a secure document.....cracking any form of crypto requires effort....and samples certainly help.

And don't jump down my throat that I'm implying anything with that last line........


And ussually Mosad don't send people who barely speak English with Israeli accent .

I can think of a lot of reasons where it would be advantageous to NOT disclose the extent of my foreign language skill


Think about it .

I have.....maybe you should

I think about the fact that if these people are "common criminals" they have exhibited extremely uncommon tradecraft skills while under surveillance......that comes directly from my mate in the NZ Police.


Or it makes you so prowd that you cought "Mossad agents" , that everything else is out of order ? If those are Mossad Agents , then I am a Super f*** man .

Actually a Russian KGB/FSB officer was also caught with his hand in the cookie jar here in NZ a couple of years ago as well.......doing the same bloody thing ;)

I suggest you chill....and wait until we get an official government response.

And if the allegations are accurate, big deal...it's not the end of the world....

And if Ngati or I say "Ha ha, busted!" big deal......it's called "taking the piss"

Down here we make fun out of sh!t like that....nothing personal....so don't take it so personally....we don't...and we're the ones who have the right to take it personally as it has happened in our land.

My concern is that true or not...the damage has been done to Kiwis traveling to certain parts of the world....meaning potentially more scrutiny at customs/internal security.

[squeak]

There was an interesting story on "Sunday" about the said events.

[squeak]

There was an interesting story on "Sunday" about the said events.

[IDFM203]

I hope you don’t mind but I figured I'd jump in on a few responses here………… ;)




Those people connected to crime and nothing more . Period .

Using IDFM203's suggestion of going with the facts, you KNOW this HOW? . No need to invoke my Name here, I think “my” suggestion is actually a universal suggestion in general, something which frankly I have not seen being done here with regards to the clear insinuations WITHOUT any facts that some of you have been doing already.

What Javehn said right here, I will let him answer, but in this thread he isn’t the only one that has insinuated or claimed to know what exactly those Israelis are.


even the vaunted Mossad is unable to just snap it's fingers and magically reproduce a secure document.....cracking any form of crypto requires effort....and samples certainly help. . Well still, I mean I bet if its just for samples, they can get a few from I am sure the pool of “sayanim” that they probably have ;)

I say again, this seems so amateurish and so unnecessary for the Mossad to be involved in.

Secondly, on a side note, if indeed you have a whole new system, I am curious to know what all the other western spy agencies are doing about it ;) :P



And ussually Mosad don't send people who barely speak English with Israeli accent .

I can think of a lot of reasons where it would be advantageous to NOT disclose the extent of my foreign language skillI don’t get what you just said……….how is it advantageous for the Mossad to send people with Israeli accents?



I think about the fact that if these people are "common criminals" they have exhibited extremely uncommon tradecraft skills while under surveillance......that comes directly from my mate in the NZ Police. Wow its just amazing here ;) , I see I am speaking with two (you and Ngati) New Zealanders, that both have connections to this investigation. What are the odds? ;) :roll: To me that seems odd that on this forum “walla” I get to speak to not just one, but rather two, but I guess that’s to be expected because New Zealand is such a small country and I guess everyone must be connected? ;)

Anyways ok so I ask, can you be more specific on how their behaviors there was like I spy…………………btw I have no special insight into Mossad, but I always thought that they trained very well also for those types of situations and how NOT to come off suspicious……………….I guess you guys got lucky here with such a incompetent crew in everything they did :roll: …………or perhaps, well that’s just me, but perhaps they weren’t Mossad agents……………just a thought ;)

oh and Btw I am no expert but I always thought that people in the Mafia were more proffessenal and as such were considered proffesional criminals and not mere "common criminals".


I suggest you chill....and wait until we get an official government response. vise versa mate :D and I dont just want to see any offcial reponse, no its "show me the money" time, in other words, I want them to show proof that they are if indeed they are.


And if the allegations are accurate, big deal...it's not the end of the world.... I agree since especially I bet most western spy agencies are using your passports ;)


And if Ngati or I say "Ha ha, busted!" big deal......it's called "taking the piss"Indeed if true, I admit we will be taking the piss, not to mention most of us asking how the F*ck can one of the worlds best spy agencies come up with such a amateurish operation and just over passports?


My concern is that true or not...the damage has been done to Kiwis traveling to certain parts of the world....meaning potentially more scrutiny at customs/internal security. If they aren’t Mossad agents, then what do you mean by the damage has been done?

Shalom :D

[Flagg]

I hope you don’t mind but I figured I'd jump in on a few responses here…………

Of course I don't mind......I've come to expect it ;)


No need to invoke my Name here

You made the suggestion first in the thread.....that is why I referenced your suggestion.


I say again, this seems so amateurish and so unnecessary for the Mossad to be involved in.

Agreed......I guess that's why we're seeing so much media attention surrounding the story.


Secondly, on a side note, if indeed you have a whole new system, I am curious to know what all the other western spy agencies are doing about it

Probably the same thing.....but not getting caught......

Without going into detail.....it's likely to result in further passport changes in the coming months to cover some little known loopholes, which for obvious reasons can't be posted.


I don’t get what you just said……….how is it advantageous for the Mossad to send people with Israeli accents?

I was responding to Javelin's remark:


And ussually Mosad don't send people who barely speak English with Israeli accent .

How does he know the extent of his English speaking ability?

If I was in a compromising situation I would not necessarily disclose my local language proficiency.....If any sound bites of them speaking "broken" English have reached the media...that says nothing about the extent of his foreign language ability.


Wow its just amazing here , I see I am speaking with two (you and Ngati) New Zealanders, that both have connections to this investigation. What are the odds? To me that seems odd that on this forum “walla” I get to speak to not just one, but rather two, but I guess that’s to be expected because New Zealand is such a small country and I guess everyone must be connected?

I hope you are just joking(ie taking the piss out of us) rather than being sarcastic....

I would assume you have acquired many friends during your service as well as in regular life.

I would also assume you have heard things of a sensitive, if not classified nature over the years.

I would also assume that USUALLY, but not always, these things you hear tend to be accurate, or "heading in the right direction".

Same here...it's called the "bro network".


Anyways ok so I ask, can you be more specific on how their behaviors there was like I spy…………………btw I have no special insight into Mossad, but I always thought that they trained very well also for those types of situations and how NOT to come off suspicious……………….I guess you guys got lucky here with such a incompetent crew in everything they did …………or perhaps, well that’s just me, but perhaps they weren’t Mossad agents……………just a thought

oh and Btw I am no expert but I always thought that people in the Mafia were more proffessenal and as such were considered proffesional criminals and not mere "common criminals".

They were using countersurveillance procedures atypical for organized crime(at least not in THIS part of the world).

My mates in the Police are able to share some unreported facts regarding local issues here....in this case their belief(they are NOT directly involved in the investigation) is that Israeli Intelligence is at least indirectly involved.


I want them to show proof that they are if indeed they are.

As long as you agree that PROOF in situations like these is often defined by the actions of the governments involved.


Indeed if true, I admit we will be taking the piss, not to mention most of us asking how the F*ck can one of the worlds best spy agencies come up with such a amateurish operation and just over passports?

Irregardless of whether the allegations are true or not, even superstars aren't perfect....EVERYONE makes mistakes



If they aren’t Mossad agents, then what do you mean by the damage has been done?

By this I meant that like many allegations, whether they are true or not, it's what the masses BELIEVE that becomes the new "fact". So media linking Israeli intelligence with New Zealand passports likely means increased scrutiny in the short-term on NZ passport holders when traveling to certain places(Customs departments of most nations have their own Intel groups the last time I checked)......something Kiwis have have long enjoyed being citizens of a "low-profile" and respected nation....that's what I meant by "damage."


Shalom

Cheers!

[Moledet]

If they are spies why they are not being charged for spying?

[mocking_loudly_died]

Things to spy on in Kiwi land:

1. Sheep
2. Sheep Shagging
3. The Evil All Blacks
4. Dodgy Kiwi's on Australian welfare.

[Kilgor]

Things to spy on in Kiwi land:

1. Sheep
2. Sheep Shagging


I smell a zionist conspiracy in the pot, and it most likely will have something to do with sheep beastilaity and global conquest.

[Royal]

If they are spies why they are not being charged for spying?

Maybe because they weren't spying there, they were simply trying to obtain legitimate travel documents for operational or more likely research purposes....

[Moledet]

If they are spies why they are not being charged for spying?

Maybe because they weren't spying there, they were simply trying to obtain legitimate travel documents for operational or more likely research purposes....
How do you know that? They are spies, they won't tell you if they were spying.

P.S. That achelon thing is in NZ, right?

[IDFM203]

You made the suggestion first in the thread.....that is why I referenced your suggestion. Well I referenced a universal suggestion and you know that it is that as well, frankly referencing me here as if its solely my suggestion came off a bit condescending…just being honest on how I read it ;)



I say again, this seems so amateurish and so unnecessary for the Mossad to be involved in.

Agreed......I guess that's why we're seeing so much media attention surrounding the story. I would have to disagree here, frankly I see anything involving the Jewish state to be a huge media overblown event and amateurish or not, this would have had a lot of media attention anyways :roll:

Like I said, this seems way too amateurish and frankly unnecessary for this to be the Mossad………………..but I guess we shall wait and see ;)



Secondly, on a side note, if indeed you have a whole new system, I am curious to know what all the other western spy agencies are doing about it

Probably the same thing.....but not getting caught...... True, though even if some one else were caught, something tells me depending on the nations invloved, things would probably be handled through diplomatic back channels and not in the media on how it has been in our case, especially over something that’s relatively trivial as this.



Wow its just amazing here , I see I am speaking with two (you and Ngati) New Zealanders, that both have connections to this investigation. What are the odds? To me that seems odd that on this forum “walla” I get to speak to not just one, but rather two, but I guess that’s to be expected because New Zealand is such a small country and I guess everyone must be connected?

I hope you are just joking(ie taking the piss out of us) rather than being sarcastic.... Well in truth I was doing a bit of both ;) and as well as being serious and honest on how its impressive.


I would assume you have acquired many friends during your service as well as in regular life.

I would also assume you have heard things of a sensitive, if not classified nature over the years.

I would also assume that USUALLY, but not always, these things you hear tend to be accurate, or "heading in the right direction".

Same here...it's called the "bro network".True and trust me I get that and I understood that is how both of you have those connections, though again, to me I must sit back and ask wow what are the odds that “walla” on this forum in a conversation I get not one but two that claim they are all connected with this investgation.


They were using countersurveillance procedures atypical for organized crime(at least not in THIS part of the world). Yes those guys are not from your part of the world that we know ;) however I still don’t see how you got countersurvalince procedures that are limited to spying and not to some professional criminals.

Also how do you know they were using spying techniques here?


My mates in the Police are able to share some unreported facts regarding local issues here....in this case their belief(they are NOT directly involved in the investigation) is that Israeli Intelligence is at least indirectly involved. No trust me I do honestly believe that they believe that and frankly of course, hell its always the Mossad and I mean no disrespect to your mates, but anything slightly involving Israel, well it has been my experience that people always jump to Israeli intelligence is involved………..though I still see nothing concrete at all to show that!!

Anyways can you explain what you mean by “indirectly involved”


I want them to show proof that they are if indeed they are.

As long as you agree that PROOF in situations like these is often defined by the actions of the governments involved. Well I wont be pigeonholed into limiting myself as to what constitutes proof or not.

I will say that yes I will take the governments actions into account but its more of a wait and see attitude as to exactly what that is in this case.

Basically I am waiting for the case to be made publicly on how they are Mossad agents, as of now I see nothing to show that, even the Israeli government involvement so far that has been released publicly doesn’t show that, for its quite normal for foreign governments to get involved when its citizens are being held in custody in a foreign land.

I guess I will make judgment on the overall case as to whether it constitutes proof or not, for just some government officials (or media reporters) merely saying something and that is it does NOT constitute proof whatsoever.


Indeed if true, I admit we will be taking the piss, not to mention most of us asking how the F*ck can one of the worlds best spy agencies come up with such a amateurish operation and just over passports?

Irregardless of whether the allegations are true or not, even superstars aren't perfect....EVERYONE makes mistakesTrue but this doesn’t just come off as merely making a mistake, this come off as amateurish from every step of the way to the point that I don’t think those involved were superstars to begin with to even make superstar mistakes ;)


If they aren’t Mossad agents, then what do you mean by the damage has been done?

By this I meant that like many allegations, whether they are true or not, it's what the masses BELIEVE that becomes the new "fact".yes sadly your right here and frankly even if its proven its not Mossad or that there isn’t any proof to show that they were, and in Israel’s no matter what, people usually believe that it was, so yes the media damage has been done.









If they are spies why they are not being charged for spying?

Maybe because they weren't spying there, they were simply trying to obtain legitimate travel documents for operational or more likely research purposes.... I believe Moledet asks a great question for even if they weren’t spying there, and frankly I think that’s all almost agreed on already, still if they were spies, usually irregardless of what they were doing, spying in foreign nations is an illegal act and if caught you get charged as spies, and here so far I have not seen that charge…. quite curious indeed why they haven’t charged them as a spies if they supposedly are :roll:


I guess we will wait and see, but unless more comes out, as of now where there has been NO proof whatsoever linking them in any way to the Israeli government, well in that case its outright wrong to refer or to even insinuate that they are spies.

Shalom :D

[pinkeye]

what about the infamous meshal affair? that particular debacle just proves that even the best screw up on occasion...

[IDFM203]

what about the infamous meshal affair? that particular debacle just proves that even the best screw up on occasion...Well technically they got him ;) and could have let him die ;) ............but yes ultimately it was a F*ck up and indeed because of politics Israel at the time saved him.



Yes we do F*ck up, I never disputed that, though to me this seems so amateurish that it doesn’t even seem like professional spies F*cking up, it just seems like rank armatures F*cing up..............there is a difference and as such it leads me to have serious doubts about whether they were part of the Mossad!!


Anyways as of now there is no proof or not even a solid case yet that shows that they were spies, so as of now, I don’t see how those Israelis are in anyways linked to the government.

I guess we shall have to wait and see!!


Shalom :D

[ASSASSIN]

since we are on the subject, where did the thread titled 'JEWS" dissapear to? It was up a few hours ago, and its gone now. Was it deleated allready, because there was nothing wrong with it.

[2RHPZ]

At home with the Mossad men

02.10.2004
By AMIR HALLEL

Yossef Barkan is not a talkative man. His son, Ze'ev, is a Mossad agent, on the run after fleeing New Zealand in the aftermath of the Mossad spy ring collapse last April.

"Stop calling here, you hear me," he said when I called to speak to Ze'ev. "I've nothing to do with this business. Goodbye." And he hung up.

Of more than a hundred people contacted in connection with this Weekend Herald inquiry, only a handful were prepared to talk.

The activities of Israel's intelligence services, whether legal or not, are a minefield that ordinary Israelis steer clear of, wherever possible.

Ze'ev Barkan, 37, is married to a woman called Irit. They live in a small village called Shoham, about 15 miles southeast of Tel Aviv.

When I telephoned for him at his home, the woman who answered told me she did not know a Ze'ev. But when I asked if I was speaking to Irit, she said "yes".

Ze'ev was born in the United States as Ze'ev William Brokenstein in 1967. He later changed his name to the more Israeli-sounding Barkan.

He has reportedly worked as an Israeli diplomat in Austria and Belgium. But he is a man of many identities and is believed to be a long-standing Mossad spy.

Before the arrests of the Mossad men, he was known to have three passports - American, Israeli and diplomatic - but these proved insufficient to his needs.

Entering New Zealand on his United States passport, he applied for a New Zealand passport in the name of a cerebral palsy sufferer.

While he waited for his helpers to do their part, he stayed in flats in Sandringham and Mt Eden and told people he was on a sailing course.

One of those helping Barkan in his bid to obtain another passport was David Tony Resnick, an Auckland paramedic who abruptly left New Zealand when police swooped.

His uncle, Keith Bookman, says this was not the first time that Tony Resnick - the name by which he is known in New Zealand - had left New Zealand for the Middle East. "When [Tony] was young, he felt a connection to Israel and to the Zionist idea," Bookman said from London, where he now lives.

Tony's parents, Gail and Selwyn Resnick, tried to stop him from going to Israel, but he wouldn't listen.

As a teenager in a strange country, he lived with Bookman and his ex-wife Dina in Kibbutz Yizrael, near Nazareth in the country's north.

This kibbutz had several New Zealand families who went to Israel after the 1967 war. They were affiliated with the Habonim, a Zionist youth movement.

In those days, Israel seemed to be a small country surrounded by hostile enemies and every Jew who could migrate to the country was desperately needed.

"[Tony] saw me as a role model,' said Bookman, who also left his New Zealand home because of a belief in the Zionist ideal.

Shortly afterwards, Resnick decided to join the Israeli army. He served as a paramedic and was adopted as a "soldier without family" by Kibbutz Yizrael.

The Jews who went to Israel from New Zealand are close. In some ways, they behave like a small family - they know each other intimately, keep in touch with each other regularly, and every year, meet up on the grass of Kibbutz Yizrael to catch up.

For David Resnick, the kibbutz and Army service were like a ticket into Israeli society.

People who knew Resnick described him as someone with two feet on the ground, who knew what he wanted from life.

After the Army, he worked as an ambulance driver in Haifa. He rented an apartment there and met and married his wife, Karen.

About four years ago, Resnick and his family moved to Auckland so he could study to be a paramedic.

But his uncle says Resnick missed Israel.

"It was obvious that his move to Auckland was temporary and just for studies," he said.

As an ardent Zionist with dual Israeli-New Zealand citizenship, Resnick fitted the bill of a "sayan", an assistant hired by Mossad from Jewish communities to help in a supportive role.

Mossad is smaller than most government intelligence agencies, employing 2000 people.

But from its small office in Herzliyah, just outside Tel Aviv, Mossad runs global operations using sympathetic contacts among Jewish communities.

Mossad does not employ them as such; it gives them small missions as part of wider intelligence operations.

Uriel 'Uri' Zosha Kelman, who had a Canadian passport and English as a mother language, was the third man supporting Barkan and Resnick.

His father was also an Israeli intelligence operative.

Kelman was the right person in the right place - young, brilliant and highly motivated. He needed only to collect the New Zealand passport and disappear.

Born to a religious Zionist family in Canada in June 1973, he was educated in Jerusalem at Nativ Ma'ir, one of the top yeshivas in the country.

A yeshiva is a religious school that teaches rabbinical practices as well as ordinary classes. The Israeli Knesset has five members with degrees from Nativ Ma'ir.

Kelman's friends at the yeshiva remember him as a brilliant and sharp student, who spoke English fluently.

He passed his final tenth grade mathematics examination two years before most of his contemporaries took it.

Nativ Ma'ir teaches a nationalistic curriculum and its 300 pupils, aged between 14 and 18, are exclusively male.

Most of its graduates, like Kalman, finish school with a strong motivation to serve the country.

They tend to serve in the Army together in a unit called Yeshivot Ha'hesder, which combines military responsibilities with religious duties.

Kelman's military career began in the armoured division, but because of medical problems he was moved to serve in intelligence. His education records show he went on to take part in an officer-training course.

His family owned a three-storeyed house in Harav Berlin St, and his father still prays in the nearby Haychal Ariel synagogue where he collects dues from congregants.

Kelman became a member of the "Dror" faction of the B'nei Akkiva religious Zionist youth movement, which imbues teenagers with militaristic values and teaches them to build new settlements.

Most of its members use these skills in the West Bank and Gaza.

For a long time, Kelman did not see his father, Israel "Easy" Kelman, who for most of his son's childhood was abroad on missions with Israeli intelligence agencies.

It was a natural progression for Kelman to follow his father's footsteps into Israeli intelligence.

His friends knew that he had been involved in a 'secret project' but none knew he was working for Mossad.

They reacted with shock when a photograph of him in a courtroom was published by the Herald and then appeared around the world.

The fourth man in the Mossad spy ring was Elisha "Eli" Cara.

He has been in New Zealand 24 times in the past four years.

Cara, 50, like Barkan, lived in a small community, Kohav Ya'ir, populated by ex-soldiers and security service officials.

His neighbours included the head of Israel's National Security Council, Uzi Dayan, Israeli Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz and, until recently, former Prime Minister Ehud Barak.

Married with five children, Cara nominally worked for a travel agency called Eastward Bound. This enabled him to travel the world with no questions asked.

An employee of Eastward Bound's Haifa office said a man named Eli worked in the agency's Sydney branch.

Inquiries by the Herald indicate that office does not exist - or if it does, it is operating illegally.

Link (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3596863&thesection=news&thesubsection=general)

[Raistlin]

At home with the Mossad men

02.10.2004
By AMIR HALLEL
Is it just me or the name sounds Israeli?

[NicNZ]

Things to spy on in Kiwi land:

1. Sheep
2. Sheep Shagging
3. The Evil All Blacks
4. Dodgy Kiwi's on Australian welfare.

Yeah mate, but we arent the ones with a song called "Tie me kangaroo down, sport"! If that song isnt about animal bondage, I just dont know what is.

;)

[JSH72]

My concern is that true or not...the damage has been done to Kiwis traveling to certain parts of the world....meaning potentially more scrutiny at customs/internal security. If they aren’t Mossad agents, then what do you mean by the damage has been done?
[/quote]

There are many Canadian humanitarian workers in Palestine so when Israel uses fake CDN passports it places our citizens in harms way.

We are a sovereign nation and this is a direct threat. Last time we recalled our officials until we were issued reassurance that this would never happen again. Now we are investigating whether the agents entered NZ using more fake CDN passports. Not cool!