Israel: UNIFIL assisted illegal crossing [Archive]

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07-20-2009, 05:52 PM

Israel: UNIFIL assisted illegal crossing
By JPOST.COM STAFF (updates@jpost.com)

The UNIFIL troops who have been stationed in southern Lebanon and given a mandate to maintain peace in the region, have in fact done the exact opposite by assisting the small group of Hizbullah supporters in their illegal border crossing into Israel over the weekend, Israeli ambassador to the United Nations Gabriela Shalev charged on Monday.

On Friday, 15 Lebanese civilians crossed illegally into Israel, shouting and waving Hizbullah flags. IDF troops spotted the group, but did not confront them as they returned to Lebanon minutes later, and without incident.

In a letter submitted by the ambassador to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon and the president of the United Nations Security Council, Shalev accused a contingent of Indian UNIFIL peacekeepers of having done nothing to prevent the demonstrators from crossing the border and even cooperating with the group.

"[The demonstrators] stood opposite the UNIFIL force, [which did nothing,] and worse than that, according to statements made by the organizers of the demonstration, they even cooperated with them," the letter read.Article continued at http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1246443861982

RoyB

07-20-2009, 05:56 PM

Can someone please tell me what is UNIFIL's job? and what authority do they have?

Givati575

07-20-2009, 07:49 PM

What the hell.....there's no way they assisted them.....but they definitely turned a blind eye like they always do. I watched an entire Hezbollah live-fire ambush and kidnapping excersize not 500m from ghanaian APC's and not 2km from a ghanaian UN base which had a PERFECT view into the valley and 100% had full knowledge of what was going on.

and by the way.....the only reason they are writing that these lebanese civilians crossed into ' ISRAEL ' is because they most likely crossed the blue-line which is technically Lebanese soil but the IDF doesn't permit ANYTHING to go in there that isn't UN.

I can get an exact account of what went down there in a few days if this thread is still alive....because in all honesty both Lebanese, Israeli, and even the UN website report everything that happens in a different way.

trondjac

07-20-2009, 07:58 PM

Can someone please tell me what is UNIFIL's job? and what authority do they have?

Originally, UNIFIL was created by the Security Council in 1978 to confirm Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon, restore international peace and security and assist the Lebanese Government in restoring its effective authority in the area. Following the July/August 2006 crisis, the Council enhanced the Force and decided that in addition to the original mandate, it would, among other things, monitor the cessation of hostilities; accompany and support the Lebanese armed forces as they deploy throughout the south of Lebanon; and extend its assistance to help ensure humanitarian access to civilian populations and the voluntary and safe return of displaced persons.
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/

My father worked in the UNIFIL, he told me that they didn't have the mandate to intervein, not to israelie or lebanise action..! only to observe and report..

Givati575

07-20-2009, 08:03 PM

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/

My father worked in the UNIFIL, he told me that they didn't have the mandate to intervein, not to israelie or lebanise action..! only to observe and report..

You got that right.....my patrol accidentally fired a burst of 7.62 from the Mag 100m away from a UN Apc...... I believe they were from Indonesia, the white and red flag, anyways, they were all un-armed and ran for cover then had the nerve to report to the media that we intentionally targetted them and they were about to return fire.

trondjac

07-20-2009, 08:08 PM

John1980

07-20-2009, 08:52 PM

seraosha

07-20-2009, 10:47 PM

tanks_alot

07-21-2009, 01:36 AM

That pretty much sums up UNIFIL's effectiveness:

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x76/picturesfromran/56-2.jpg

Snoshi

07-21-2009, 01:41 AM

Givati575

07-21-2009, 02:50 AM

I mean cmon.. I know that UNFIL soldiers are the good guys etc.. But the mandate needs to be changed.. It cant go on like this, because sooner or later this will lead to war and UNFIL will be caught in the middle.

no they won't......do you know how fast UNIFIL pulled out last time there was a war? They have become quite efficient at running away.

Xaito

07-21-2009, 06:13 AM

no they won't......do you know how fast UNIFIL pulled out last time there was a war? They have become quite efficient at running away.

what else do you expect them to do?
attack Lebanon alongside Israel?
last time when Soldiers under UN mandate did not run away as war broke out they were accused of invading Georgia... p-)

DID

07-21-2009, 06:21 AM

UNIFIL personnal know what's going on under them (Hizb diging and building under UNIFIL base for example) but they can do anything... my question why the french bring 155mm heavy armored artillery tank, and Leclerc tank? If the mandate is only to observe light armored vehicle are ok.

http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu189/ditedonc/Leclerc_main_battle_tank_French_Arm.jpg
http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu189/ditedonc/unifil_Lebanon_***************_Mag_.jpg

Connaught Ranger

07-21-2009, 06:33 AM

You got that right.....my patrol accidentally fired a burst of 7.62 from the Mag 100m away from a UN Apc...... I believe they were from Indonesia, the white and red flag, anyways, they were all un-armed and ran for cover then had the nerve to report to the media that we intentionally targetted them and they were about to return fire.

Well in the past there have been recorded fatal consequences of I.D.F. forces firing at U.N. / Irish U.N.I.F.I.L. forces.

Private Dermot McLoughlin* killed by a Merkava tank round fired into the U.N.I.F.I.L. postion in At-Tiri on the 19th of January 1987.

Since then a U.N.D.O.F. observer group were targeted and killed when the well marked building in which they were based was hit by an I.D.F. Airstrike.

I do not know of any U.N.I.F.I.L. forces operating in South Lebanon who are unarmed, they mainly carry sidearms / small arms for protection even vehicle crews.

* Dermot McLoughlin from Sligo Town, Western Ireland, was personally known to me, he served in Finner Camp, with "C" Company, 28th Infantry Battalion, he left behind a young wife and baby daughter, his wife rejected the Israeli I.D.F. compensation offer, they (the I.D.F.) said his death was caused by a conscript fooling around inside the tank who accidently discharged the main gun at the U.N.I.F.I.L. postion. (One must ask why the loaded main gun of the tank was laid onto the building in the first place?).

Connaught Ranger.

Connaught Ranger

07-21-2009, 06:38 AM

no they won't......do you know how fast UNIFIL pulled out last time there was a war? They have become quite efficient at running away.

Please feel free to tell us :roll:

When did U.N.I.F.I.L. "pull out", giveup their locations in Lebanon?

Their (U.N.I.F.I.L.) mandate states they allow the opposing force to move around their locations as they have no authorization to get involved with one side or the other. They have always had the option if an all out war was to break out to move in the direction of the Israeli border and larger there.

Connaught Ranger.

Connaught Ranger

07-21-2009, 06:46 AM

Its just juices trolling now that it came in to light that UNIFIL actually assisted and even gave passes to Israeli deathsquads. Matter which was discussed at a another topic in this forum in general section, by people who actually been there, in UNIFIL.

Cheers.

There is no proof that U.N.I.F.I.L. gave passes to any "death squads".

It is known passes were granted to Israeli Intelligence Groups.

There are recorded incidents of bodies being found, on both sides of the divide in Lebanon

but, no conclusive proof, only speculation as to the origin of the perpetrators of the killings.

Many Israeli Intelligence groups operated along side members of the S.L.A.

And as can be seen in my post on the original thread, the AMAL organisation

availed of the same type of passes from U.N.I.F.I.L. but in far smaller quantities.

And, by the way, the average U.N. soldier and officer, on the ground in South Lebanon,

had no input into whether it was a good or bad idea for such passes to be given to anybody.

So in all reality its you, who are doing the trolling.

Connaught Ranger.

Connaught Ranger

07-21-2009, 06:51 AM

That pretty much sums up UNIFIL's effectiveness:

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x76/picturesfromran/56-2.jpg

Looking at the picture, I cant see any evidence that the bunker was built while the U.N.I.F.I.L. looked on, many such areas have old bunkers, many built by the S.L.A. and I.D.F. before the collapse of the enclave, also not all the fortifications built under I.D.F. occupation, were destroyed / dismantled before they returned back over the border into Israeli over the years.

RoyB

07-21-2009, 08:08 AM

Yoni-R

07-21-2009, 11:52 AM

Hollis

07-21-2009, 11:57 AM

Please feel free to tell us :roll:

When did U.N.I.F.I.L. "pull out", giveup their locations in Lebanon?

Their (U.N.I.F.I.L.) mandate states they allow the opposing force to move around their locations as they have no authorization to get involved with one side or the other. They have always had the option if an all out war was to break out to move in the direction of the Israeli border and larger there.

Connaught Ranger.

I think a lot of people do not understand what is U.N.I.F.I.L. role/mandate is.

seraosha

07-21-2009, 11:59 AM

I think a lot of people do not understand what is U.N.I.F.I.L. role/mandate is.

I don't think a lot of folks have any idea how fricking hard it is to be a UN Peacekeeper, operating under UN mandates, with a ROE that frequently puts you in danger for something you view as hopeless.

Jobu

07-21-2009, 12:43 PM

I don't think a lot of folks have any idea how fricking hard it is to be a UN Peacekeeper, operating under UN mandates, with a ROE that frequently puts you in danger for something you view as hopeless.

So why do it?

I don't mean to belittle the soldiers on the ground whatsoever but if their mission is as worthless as it appears to be, why is anyone sending these men and women potentially into harm's way?

Connaught Ranger

07-21-2009, 02:15 PM

So why do it?

I don't mean to belittle the soldiers on the ground whatsoever but if their mission is as worthless as it appears to be, why is anyone sending these men and women potentially into harm's way?

We are not sent, we volunteer "In The Service Of Peace" because we, honestly believe we can make some difference, to those affected by conflict.

Connaught Ranger.

Givati575

07-21-2009, 02:21 PM

I do not know of any U.N.I.F.I.L. forces operating in South Lebanon who are unarmed, they mainly carry sidearms / small arms for protection even vehicle crews.

accident's happen all the time, the IDF never intentionally targetted UN, ever.
as for being unarmed, they left their weapons inside their APC and were outside sitting on lawnchairs under umbrellas.

Please feel free to tell us :roll:

When did U.N.I.F.I.L. "pull out", giveup their locations in Lebanon?

Their (U.N.I.F.I.L.) mandate states they allow the opposing force to move around their locations as they have no authorization to get involved with one side or the other. They have always had the option if an all out war was to break out to move in the direction of the Israeli border and larger there.

Connaught Ranger.

a few positions were abandoned at the start of the 2nd lebanon war

Givati575

07-21-2009, 02:26 PM

We are not sent, we volunteer "In The Service Of Peace" because we, honestly believe we can make some difference, to those affected by conflict.

Connaught Ranger.

cut the crap, you volunteer for the money. At least that's what every single Polish, Indonesian, Ghanaian, and even Canadian UN ( Canadians stationed in the Golan ) soldier told me.

We were in shock when they told us how much money they make to serve in Lebanon. Some of the soldiers get their own apartments in Tiberias.......

Here is your ' mandate ' http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/mandate.html

Connaught Ranger

07-21-2009, 03:14 PM

^Come on, CR.
I can understand your frustration about random people mocking the UN forces in Lebanon, considering that you were once one of them.
We know and believe(some of us at least) that the soldiers serving in UNIFIL are the good guys. we're not mad at the men on the ground, who are there, and only following orders.
But you have to agree that UNIFIL's effectiveness is very very limited.
The recent events of Hizballah weapons caches explosions, and some rockets being launched, targeting Israel, and the group of people getting in to an area where they shouldn't be, while taking children with them so they won't get shot.. those are just some of the proofs that keep coming again and again..
If UNIFIL can't respond when they're being stoned and targeted by the mob, and when Hizballah forces kick them out of where 'they aren't allowed to be', than what are they doing there? what authority do they have?
If they're there for just writing reports and going on passes to clubs and bars, than why do they need tanks and artillery? why send all those people there?
Things must change.

Hallo RoyB, you are certainly entitled to your point of view, as are all people concerned, however, if you look at the other situations such as the Gaza Strip and to some extent the West Bank, where there is no U.N.I.F.I.L. presence and the situation for violence still exists.

Hizbollah and its supporters and their weapons caches extend far outside the U.N.I.F.I.L. area of operations, and with time and perseverance bring them forward to the "front lines" appears to be all to easy, however as a counter point there are weapons getting into the West Bank and Gaza, their are weapons even getting into Israel proper, so arguing that U.N.I.F.I.L. is not doing its job is a bit of a moot point, can the I.D.F. and Israel's other security / police forces, who have been well trained and equipped and have years of experience and intelligence gathering capabilities stamp it out completely?

The use of children in such situations, is coldly calculated to benefit them, if the children get hurt, the people who inflict injury get the bad press, as we have seen many times before,

As for Hizbollah kicking U.N.I.F.I.L. out, first and foremost its the Lebanese security forces who are in overall charge of the situation, even in my day (1979 - 1980) when we stopped people smuggling weapons in the U.N. Zone they were handed over to the Lebanese Police, and ultimately released hours later.

The U.N.I.F.I.L. Force is not there to run a prison or to judge these people, that's left to the Lebanese themselves, sometimes the weapons were confiscated, and the likes of explosives were destroyed by the U.N. E.O.D. Teams.

Just before the "Battle of At-Tiri" kicked off in 1980 when S.L.A. Militiamen tried to overrun and capture the Irish U.N. position, the road checkpoint was subject to a barrage of stones and burning car tires rolled down the hill into the check-point, from a crowd of civilians who were being forced by Haddad's thugs to do it, however there were no Riot Control Force, stationed there, (and I doubt if such a group exists there today for this specific threat, but I stand open for correction.)

There were also no orders to open fire on the rioters, old men, women and young children, unless a direct threat to life was perceived, then, an Irish U.N. soldier perceiving such a threat to his life and believing he was in imminent danger from an A.K. toting Militia man, did draw his 9mm pistol and return fire, hitting and killing a 16 year old member of the S.L.A. Militia, who was firing bursts from his weapon to intimidate the crowd of locals and hopefully scare the Irish troops by firing close to them.

This in turn was to have tragic consequence for the Irish Battalion as the family of the shot boy, took out a "fatwah" (sp?) blood feud and swore a blood oath that his death would be avenged, they at first demanded compensation from the u.N. but were told the U,N, does not play that game, INCENSING THE FAMILY FURTHER:

a few days later they took members of an Irish re-supply patrol to the Irish U.N. positions at O.P. Ras, O.P. Blida, and O.P Mhaibeb, hostage along with an American officer from U.N.D.O.F. and a French news correspondent and an American correspondent (How an unarmed American officer from U.N.D.O.F. ended up being in charge of an Irish U.N.I.F.I.L. resupply has never been satisfactorily explained even by the man himself.)

Driving deeper into D.F.F. enclave, the patrol was blockaded and all personnel disarmed before they realized what was happening and taken prisoner, the 3 Irish drivers were separated and the brother of the dead militiaman from the At-Tiri incident began shooting at the 3 Irish soldiers.

Private O'Mahony fell wounded in the ankle and leg, and Private Barrett and Private Smallhorne attempted to escape, in the confusion they managed to get out from the basement of the school building they were in but were quickly recaptured outside, the U.S. officer took Private O'Mahoney upstairs from the basement and outside where he waved down a passing Israeli patrol who took charge of him.

The two others were driven away and shortly stood against a wall and cold bloodily machine-gunned to death, the "alleged" perpetrator now living in Detroit, U.S.A., selling ice-cream from a van to school kids.

My honest opinion is U.N.I.F.I.L. since its inception, has been caught between a rock and a hard place. What is the answer to resolving the problems and how will it turn out, who knows, but, in the past more than one "organisation" in the conflict has used U.N.I.F.I.L. when it suited them.

However ultimately the Lebanese, themselves have to dismantle the Hezbollah, and disrupt the control from Syria and Iran, it is not a task for U.N.I.F.I.L., how could it be, seeing even Israel were never successful in dismantling the Hezbollah infrastructure.

Connaught Ranger.

Connaught Ranger

07-21-2009, 03:39 PM

cut the crap, you volunteer for the money. At least that's what every single Polish, Indonesian, Ghanaian, and even Canadian UN ( Canadians stationed in the Golan ) soldier told me.

We were in shock when they told us how much money they make to serve in Lebanon. Some of the soldiers get their own apartments in Tiberias.......

Here is your ' mandate ' http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/mandate.html

Sorry but we are not mercenary'srofl

I do not see that the Irish told you that :roll:

Poland . . . mmm. . . not in U.N.I.F.I.L. when I served, and a former impoverished former Eastern Block Country, not Ireland.

The soldiers of Ghan-Batt were even worse paid than the Irish in my time there, but not as poor as the Senegal Battalion or Nepalese Batt, poor sods.

Canadians in the Golan are with U.N.D.O.F., a different mission to U.N.I.F.I.L.:roll:

Indonisia were not there in my time either.:roll:

We, had our own "apartments" in South Lebanon too, bomb-damaged buildings rented from Lebanese locals by the U.N. at high prices, even more lucky were the ones 16+ in number located in ex-American 12 man tents.

There were some PORTACABINS in Tibnin, pure luxury. :roll:

I suppose I was lucky in my tour of duty I got only one 60 hour pass, on which I traveled to see Damascus, via Haifa, Israel, stayed in a hotel in Damascus, paid for out of my own pocket, I had a good drinking session with the U.N.D.O.F. Canadians in their rented location in Damascus, got some headache tablets from the Austrian Medical Unit in their rented location in Damascus the next morning, visited the Syrian Military Museum, and the Damascus Souk and returned the same way to Israel, stopping in the Zion Hotel in Haifa,again paying from my wages, drank in the "London Pride", gate crashed the Haifa docks (security my a r s erofl) in the company of some Brits and their hookers, partied on the "P & O ship S.S. WILD AUK" stranded in Haifa Harbor by a Pilots strike, before heading back to the Hotel for breakfast and departure for Rosh Hanika (sp?) border crossing and back to duty in South Lebanon.

Our "mega" Irish Army wages were banked at homerofl and we drew an allowence from our U.N. pay limited to 100 dollars a month, if we wanted more, for a holiday we had to apply in writing 4 weeks in advance.

So in all, a fun in the sun packed thrills a minute holiday I supose it was selfish of the three boys who got killed, by the S.L.A. during my tour to spoil it for us.:roll:

Admitedly with time the Irish Military pay & U.N. pay improved, but is that really any compensation for the time from your family, children and loved ones?

Do you really think everybody is so mercenary, and we only went for the money?

Connaught Ranger.

Connaught Ranger

07-21-2009, 03:52 PM

Lebanon - UNIFIL - Mandate.

According to Security Council resolutions 425 (1978) (http://daccess-ods.un.org/access.nsf/Get?Open&DS=s/res/425%20%281978%29&Lang=E) and 426 (1978) (http://daccess-ods.un.org/access.nsf/Get?Open&DS=S/RES/426%20%281978%29&Lang=E) of 19 March 1978, UNIFIL was established to:

Confirm the withdrawal of Israeli forces from southern Lebanon;
Restore international peace and security;
Assist the Government of Lebanon in ensuring the return of its effective authority in the area.

According to Security Council resolution 1701 (2006) (http://daccess-ods.un.org/access.nsf/Get?Open&DS=S/RES/1701%20%282006%29&Lang=E&Area=UNDOC) of 11 August 2006, UNIFIL, in addition to carrying out its mandate under resolutions 425 and 426, shall:

Monitor the cessation of hostilities;
Accompany and support the Lebanese armed forces as they deploy throughout the South, including along the Blue Line, as Israel withdraws its armed forces from Lebanon;
Coordinate its activities referred to in the preceding paragraph (above) with the Government of Lebanon and the Government of Israel;
Extend its assistance to help ensure humanitarian access to civilian populations and the voluntary and safe return of displaced persons;
Assist the Lebanese armed forces in taking steps towards the establishment between the Blue Line and the Litani river of an free of any armed personnel, assets and weapons other than those of the Government of Lebanon and of UNIFIL deployed in this area;
Assist the Government of Lebanon, at its request, in securing its borders and other entry points to prevent the entry in Lebanon without its consent of arms or related materiel.

By this resolution, the Council also authorized UNIFIL to take all necessary action in areas of deployment of its forces and as it deems within its capabilities, to ensure that its area of operations is not utilized for hostile activities of any kind; to resist attempts by forceful means to prevent it from discharging its duties under the mandate of the Security Council; and to protect United Nations personnel, facilities, installations and equipment, ensure the security and freedom of movement of United Nations personnel, humanitarian workers and, without prejudice to the responsibility of the Government of Lebanon, to protect civilians under imminent threat of physical violence.And what has come to pass since 1978?

Israel has been in and out a few times, U.N.I.F.I.L. did not have the means to resist them.

During that time U.N.I.F.I.L. remained in the area that was occupied by the Israelis, U.N.I.F.I.L. aided the Israeli Security Forces with "Travel anywhere and stay out of prison":roll: passes.

In 1978 very few if any Lebanese forces operated in the U.N.I.F.I.L. area of operations between the Litani River and and the Blue Line.

U.N.I.F.I.L. came under frequent artillery and mortar barrage from I.D.F. positions and S.L.A. positions.

If U.N.I.F.I.L. are not requested to assist the Lebanese Security Forces in operations in South Lebanon, they are not authorised to go it alone.

Seeing as some of the Lebanese Government are PRO-Hizbollah they hold the view that Hezbollah with weapons have as much right to be in the A.O. as other Lebanese Security Forces to hinder Israeli Invasion. (Not my belief by the way) U.N.I.F.I.L. is not there to oust the Lebanese Government.

Connaught Ranger.

timetraveller

07-21-2009, 04:11 PM

seraosha

07-21-2009, 04:30 PM

I didn't volunteer for UN Peacekeeping...I volunteered for the US Army, and they decided I needed to go do a couple of UN Peacekeeping missions.

And to a man, no one got one extra penny for being on UN duty. Our CIC decided it sent the wrong message, that we were mercenaries, so no extra pay.

But I digress. We who volunteer to go into harms way do it out of a sense of Duty...and sometimes we are sent off to do things we didn't exactly sign up for, but tough ****.

That's how it goes sometimes.

RoyB

07-21-2009, 04:54 PM

Hallo RoyB,
Thank you for your detailed and honest response, Connaught Ranger.
Rest in peace, for those who have lost their lives.

Connaught Ranger

07-22-2009, 07:15 AM

accident's happen all the time, the IDF never intentionally targetted UN, ever.
as for being unarmed, they left their weapons inside their APC and were outside sitting on lawnchairs under umbrellas.

a few positions were abandoned at the start of the 2nd lebanon war

Accidents do NOT happen, there is always a cause.

With regards the I.D.F. Merkava tank round into At-Tiri which resulted in the death of an Irish U.N. soldier, the I.D.F. inquiry found the guy (a conscript IDF soldier) who fired the gun, guilty of negligence, they also offered a compensation package via the Israeli Ambasador in Ireland to Private McGloughlin's widow, which, she rejected, as in her words its blood money and will not give her back her husband, or return the father of her child.

Strange how you could observe them close enough to see where their weapons were located, and yet still manage to fire a burst of machine gun fire within 100 meters of them, all by accident of course. :roll:

Connaught Ranger.

Atlantic Friend

07-22-2009, 11:05 AM

RoyB

07-22-2009, 11:43 AM

To deter attacks/provocations against UNIFIL soldiers/positions. Which regrettably have occurred, and involved both HA and IDF.
So it all there just for deterrence?
Well, obviously its not working.

ggk

07-22-2009, 11:52 AM

So it all there just for deterrence?
Well, obviously its not working.

tell some of your friend to shoot the lecrec.......

on topic:

Their (U.N.I.F.I.L.) mandate states they allow the opposing force to move around their locations as they have no authorization to get involved with one side or the other. They have always had the option if an all out war was to break out to move in the direction of the Israeli border and larger there.

Connaught Ranger.

x2..thats about it. ...i mean what do we expect? UN troops shooting anyone in their sight? i mean who do that right?

Givati575

07-22-2009, 01:13 PM

tell some of your friend to shoot the lecrec.......

on topic:

x2..thats about it. ...i mean what do we expect? UN troops shooting anyone in their sight? i mean who do that right?

I've seen a few French LeClercs driving by the border. The Israelis think every tank looks the same. According to them there is only the Merkava or the t-72. They didn't get a kick out of it, but I sure as hell did!

Atlantic Friend

07-23-2009, 07:44 AM

So it all there just for deterrence?
Well, obviously its not working.

Meaning what?

RoyB

07-23-2009, 08:53 AM

Meaning what?
Meaning that the deterrence is not working.

Atlantic Friend

07-23-2009, 08:57 AM

Meaning that the deterrence is not working.

How is the deterrence not working, that was my question.

RoyB

07-23-2009, 09:52 AM

How is the deterrence not working, that was my question.
UNIFIL being tossed around when they enter a territory where they supposedly shouldn't be by Hizballah.
And the recent events of UNIFIL soldiers being stoned and attacked by the mob, while they don't have the authority to defend themselves.

Atlantic Friend

07-23-2009, 11:04 AM

UNIFIL being tossed around when they enter a territory where they supposedly shouldn't be by Hizballah.
And the recent events of UNIFIL soldiers being stoned and attacked by the mob, while they don't have the authority to defend themselves.

It's always the problem in peace-keeping missions - mobs I mean. In these situations, and unless one is ready to see live coverage of one's soldiers killing civilians by the dozen, most weapons are useless.

Having heavy equipment nevertheless has its advantages. Suppose conditions on the ground radically change tomorrow, and Hezbollah starts hitting the UNIFIL units for real. Even if the UN immediately approved a change of ROE, it'd take weeks before the heavies are deployed, and in the meanwhile the light UNIFIL detachments would have to be withdrawn.

ase290406

07-23-2009, 04:32 PM

Rubber bullets? Tear Gas?

Moledet

07-23-2009, 04:55 PM

It's always the problem in peace-keeping missions - mobs I mean. In these situations, and unless one is ready to see live coverage of one's soldiers killing civilians by the dozen, most weapons are useless.

Having heavy equipment nevertheless has its advantages. Suppose conditions on the ground radically change tomorrow, and Hezbollah starts hitting the UNIFIL units for real. Even if the UN immediately approved a change of ROE, it'd take weeks before the heavies are deployed, and in the meanwhile the light UNIFIL detachments would have to be withdrawn.
And what about confiscation of UNIFIL soldiers personal cameras by Hizballah members? That wasn't a mob yet they gave them the cameras and got them back through the LAF with all pictures deleted (quite shameful for a soldier).

It's not that I don't appreciate the fact they chose to be there but UNIFIL has zero deterrence to both sides.

P.S. we'll see if in two weeks the UNSC will change the mandate, I kinda doubt it since the first of goal of UNIFIL is to avoid casualties and only then carry missions that can bring stability.

Mordoror

07-24-2009, 05:17 AM

accident's happen all the time, the IDF never intentionally targetted UN, ever.
as for being unarmed, they left their weapons inside their APC and were outside sitting on lawnchairs under umbrellas.Noooooo ??
so artillery round accidentally falled on a UN position full or Chinese observers in a flat plain and no Hezb position beyond 900 m ? ...

or some armor accidentally roamed finish APCs out of the road ??

or some F15 accidentally dived on French position in straffing formation ??

BS... isareli are as provocative as the hezb when it comes to UNIFIL....

tanks_alot

07-24-2009, 05:30 AM

It's always the problem in peace-keeping missions - mobs I mean. In these situations, and unless one is ready to see live coverage of one's soldiers killing civilians by the dozen, most weapons are useless.

No one gives a second thought to UNIFIL, not Israel and not Hezballah. after the Second Lebanon war, the new and "improved" UNIFIL was under French command and supposedly they planned to play hard ball with Israel. there were a number of instances where the French claimed that the IDF was flying in a threatning manner over their positions and they were were already with the finger on the trigger on their AA missiles. they made a big deal about it in the news, the French defence or foreign (don't remember anymore) made some harsh statements etc'. but as we say, "the dogs bark and the convoy passes". the flights kept going and the French realized how things work around here and became quiet.

Same goes for Hezballah, kicking UNIFIL medics from a village, stopping UNIFIL at checkpoints and confiscating equipment etc' etc'.

Hell, even the old UNIFIL had more teeth than the new one.

Having heavy equipment nevertheless has its advantages. Suppose conditions on the ground radically change tomorrow, and Hezbollah starts hitting the UNIFIL units for real. Even if the UN immediately approved a change of ROE, it'd take weeks before the heavies are deployed, and in the meanwhile the light UNIFIL detachments would have to be withdrawn.

If Hezballah started hitting UNIFIL for real, a few tanks wouldn't help them much, they might as well make a dash towards the Israeli border as UNIFIL in it's current state isn't capabale or mentally able to pick a fight with anything.

UNIFIL is just for making nice pictures in the newspapers and not much alse.

tanks_alot

07-24-2009, 05:35 AM

Noooooo ??
so artillery round accidentally falled on a UN position full or Chinese observers in a flat plain and no Hezb position beyond 900 m ? ...

Is that the incident from the Second Lebanon war? because the reason they were hit with artillery is because they did have hezzis firing towards Israel from their position.

or some armor accidentally roamed finish APCs out of the road ??

Well, when half naked Finns block you from doing your missions while screaming at you like it free drinks night and the bar, things like that might happen and no one was hurt.

or some F15 accidentally dived on French position in straffing formation ??

According to the French that thought they were going to stop the IAF flights and when realized that's not going to happen, became mysteriously silent up until today....

Mordoror

07-24-2009, 05:49 AM

Is that the incident from the Second Lebanon war? because the reason they were hit with artillery is because they did have hezzis firing towards Israel from their position.of course .... and of course the reports are contradictory IDF version is yours, UNIFIL version is not the same)

Well, when half naked Finns block you from doing your missions while screaming at you like it free drinks night and the bar, things like that might happen and no one was hurt.lol
show the respect you feel for peacekeeper troops.... hum half naked drunk finns huh

According to the French that thought they were going to stop the IAF flights and when realized that's not going to happen, became mysteriously silent up until today....your interpretation
it was not about stoping the IAF flights and never was for this specific incident

it was two F15 diving on UNIFIL french position in straffing formation.... that is provocative and dangerous, the trigger being easily usable by both sides (ground soldiers feeling threatened could have fired their Manpad, or IDF aircrafts could have fired because of the little disturbing buzzing sound indicating that you are locked)

anyway those examples were only to show that the assesment : IDF never ever targetted UNIFIL is plain false

and as i said (and you confirmed it) both IDF and hezb play provocation against UNIFIL
well of course that's a little more disturbing when it comes from somes who feel they are the righteous guys than when it comes from a terrorist classified group

tanks_alot

07-24-2009, 06:11 AM

of course .... and of course the reports are contradictory IDF version is yours, UNIFIL version is not the same)
From an email of the Canadian officer that was killed in that outpost:

"What I can tell you is this: we have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both artillery and aerial bombing. The closest artillery has landed within 2 metres of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 metres from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity."

Source (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060718/mideast_lebanon_UN_060716/20060718/)

lol
show the respect you feel for peacekeeper troops.... hum half naked drunk finns huh

They should have shown respect themselvs for thier duty and act and appear like professionals:

http://www.youtube.com/v/k8eEH7oozxo&feature=related

your interpretation
it was not about stoping the IAF flights and never was for this specific incident

it was two F15 diving on UNIFIL french position in straffing formation.... that is provocative and dangerous, the trigger being easily usable by both sides (ground soldiers feeling threatened could have fired their Manpad, or IDF aircrafts could have fired because of the little disturbing buzzing sound indicating that you are locked)

Again, there was more than one incident, it was all right when the new UNIFIL was settleling in and after the command of UNIFIL was handed over to the Italians, suddenly you stoped hearing about evil Zionist planes strafing poor UNIFIL's.... make up your own conclusions.

anyway those examples were only to show that the assesment : IDF never ever targetted UNIFIL is plain false

and as i said (and you confirmed it) both IDF and hezb play provocation against UNIFIL
well of course that's a little more disturbing when it comes from somes who feel their are the righteous guys than when it comes from a terrorist classified group

There were accidents, mistakes in identity and perheps soldiers acting out on their own against their orders. but you'll have to be a complete retard in order to believe that there are direct orders to harm UNIFILs or some kind of policy, there isn't even any logic behind it as it only hurts Israel when it happens.

Mordoror

07-24-2009, 06:45 AM

There were accidents, mistakes in identity and perheps soldiers acting out on their own against their orders. but you'll have to be a complete retard in order to believe that there are direct orders to harm UNIFILs or some kind of policy, there isn't even any logic behind it as it only hurts Israel when it happens.

accidents : OK

mistake in identities ? hu on well labelled white outposts and vehicles (outposts correctly positionned on battleground maps several months ago ?) .... please don't consider me like a 6 years child.... i don't believe in Santa Claus anymore and i don't believe in that too

soldiers acting against their orders : well in an area full of testosterone, it would not be unusual so OK

but you'll have to be a complete retard in order to believe that there are direct orders to harm UNIFILs
never said that.... at least from highers level of command
now IDF are known to let a good margin of initiative on lesser level of command
i won't be astonished if some NCO or "sous officiers" (trsl ?) have acted agressively on their own against UNIFIL because well UNIFIL is not very appreciated by Israeli political staff and there is a "what happens to them is not my problem and if something bad happens anyway as IDF members you have our support" general policy

tanks_alot

07-24-2009, 07:10 AM

mistake in identities ? hu on well labelled white outposts and vehicles (outposts correctly positionned on battleground maps several months ago ?) .... please don't consider me like a 6 years child.... i don't believe in Santa Claus anymore and i don't believe in that too

I don't consider you a 6 years old, i consider you a person with no military experince.

For example, here's a French peacekeepr during the day:

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/2411/unifil.jpg

Now, here's that French peacekeeper during the night:

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2043/unifil2.jpg

Now, think about spotting him a few hundred meters away. and let me remind you that hezzis often wear uniforms, vests and helmets.

I mean, come on, there were enough blue on blue IDF friendly fire incidents.

never said that.... at least from highers level of command
now IDF are known to let a good margin of initiative on lesser level of command
i won't be astonished if some NCO or "sous officiers" (trsl ?) have acted agressively on their own against UNIFIL because well UNIFIL is not very appreciated by Israeli political staff and there is a "what happens to them is not my problem and if something bad happens anyway as IDF members you have our support" general policy

Give me a break, if a soldier breaks the rules he gets punished. period.

Mordoror

07-24-2009, 07:41 AM

I don't consider you a 6 years old, i consider you a person with no military experince.
well you are right
i consider myself without frontline military experience (10 months of national service as military nurse in mechanized infantry regiment is not enough to know everything about military stuff)
so now you have given the appropriate explanation for possible "friendly fire" on foot soldiers i agree ...

Give me a break, if a soldier breaks the rules he gets punished. period.
lol
while i have not an extensive military experience, there is something that is obvious in any army and ot experienced by myself at least in French army :

you can break the rules at will until you are not caught and it doesn't get proven you are breaking the rules

you can (and will) break the rules if you are told (ordered in fact) by a superior to do so.....

just ot fix it, let's imagine (just speculation of course) a little conversation in the Merk in the footage above
pilot to tank commander : boss, we have an UN APC blocking the road
tank commander to pilot : well make it move out of the way
pilot to tank commander: boss, we were ordered no contact with UN elements
tank commander to pilot : i don't care, we were ordered to go though this position, so make it move out of the way by whatever mean, i don't care
pilot : ok boss

you see what i mean : general orders could be contradictory with on field orders, leading (with the help of a little testosterone) to incidents and accidents

Moledet

07-24-2009, 07:45 AM

Yep, that's the exact way you a pass a fire order in a tank.

tanks_alot

07-24-2009, 08:00 AM

Mordoror

07-24-2009, 08:37 AM

That's ridicules, first of all it took me a while to figure out how did a pilot get in the picture and why was he taking orders from a tank, until i figured you were talking about a driver.

Anyway, to the point. do you see the tank commander with his torso exposed and out of the tank? that's in order for him to have as much situational awareness as possible. it doesn't work that way in a tank. you don't give a driver an order to deal with screaming Finns in APCs and go jerk off in the meantime. every small turn the tank makes, every foot press on the gas paddle by the driver, is controlled by the commander in such situations.

well that was not the point of my example (which is still an example and never assumed to be the real life)
and :
sorry for the misunderstanding about the word pilot (we use the word "pilote" (pilot) more often than "conducteur" (driver) for our tank drivers in French army .... that's why i used it

and to not go OT please explain me by MP how a tank commander is controlling the drivers paddles and driving wheel in the turret, i am interested in that as the AMX30B2 i have entered in didn't have such capability

tanks_alot

07-24-2009, 08:46 AM

and to not go OT please explain me by MP how a tank commander is controlling the drivers paddles and driving wheel in the turret, i am interested in that as the AMX30B2 i have entered in didn't have such capability

It's a special technology invented by secret IDF labs called language: "a little to the left" "stop" "full gas" "small press on the gas" "strong left" etc' etc' etc' p-)

Mordoror

07-24-2009, 09:33 AM

It's a special technology invented by secret IDF labs called language: "a little to the left" "stop" "full gas" "small press on the gas" "strong left" etc' etc' etc' p-)

so it works like everywhere else
a tank commander shouting in a microphone or sometimes shooting with its foot in your back p-)

RoyB

07-24-2009, 09:42 AM

Posted here in this thread already, and million times before..
This is why UNIFIL gets hurt -
http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x76/picturesfromran/56-2.jpg

Atlantic Friend

07-24-2009, 12:23 PM

UNIFIL is just for making nice pictures in the newspapers and not much alse.

Well, you brought them there. If you can't learn to respect them, learn to live with them.

RoyB

07-24-2009, 12:30 PM

Well, you brought them there. If you can't learn to respect them, learn to live with them.
The UN brought them there, not us.
Respect got nothing to do with it, but the fact that their presence in the area is just a few percent be on useless.
Every time something like this is said, someone decides that 'we' don't respect them.. which is wrong.

gilgoul

07-24-2009, 04:24 PM

well you are right

while i have not an extensive military experience, there is something that is obvious in any army and ot experienced by myself at least in French army :

you can break the rules at will until you are not caught and it doesn't get proven you are breaking the rules

you can (and will) break the rules if you are told (ordered in fact) by a superior to do so.....

just ot fix it, let's imagine (just speculation of course) a little conversation in the Merk in the footage above
pilot to tank commander : boss, we have an UN APC blocking the road
tank commander to pilot : well make it move out of the way
pilot to tank commander: boss, we were ordered no contact with UN elements
tank commander to pilot : i don't care, we were ordered to go though this position, so make it move out of the way by whatever mean, i don't care
pilot : ok boss

you see what i mean : general orders could be contradictory with on field orders, leading (with the help of a little testosterone) to incidents and accidents

And that is where my experience in both armies (France and IDF) comes handy :)
In the IDF, there is no emphasis on the "pas vu, pas pris" (not seen, not caught)
While, during my time with the EED2 (more than 10 month),many breaking of the rule would mostly go unnoticed, in the IDF, it is the duty of the soldier not to obey any unlawful order, and he is liable if he fails to do so.
In contrast, in France, the idea is much more (right until 1995), do what you are ordered, and your +1 will have to answer any question if any question is asked.
True, in the IDF, an NCO (and I am a commanding NCO in my reserve regiment) has much more initiative than in the Armée de Terre, but he still has to answer to everyone of his decisions)
Beside, and, taking the exemple of the finnish UNIFIL soldiers, if the life of my soldiers and mine was in jeopardy due to a deliberate slowing action of any party (in this case, UNIFIL), I would take every necessary measure to stop that threat. (and that brings a general question about those so-called peace-keeping-missions, but that 's another debate)
And If I was the UNIFIL, I'd be glad I didn't play cow-boy against some crazy Hizaballah RPG totting militiaman, or I wouldn't have any possibility to post my hero film on itube.
Now, and as much as I am polite and courteous in my menial tasks (check-points), if someone dares to endanger me and my troops, for the sake of whatever they perceive should be done in my neighborhood, they gonna have to get real commitment to their mission.

Mordoror

07-24-2009, 06:56 PM

And that is where my experience in both armies (France and IDF) comes handy :)
In the IDF, there is no emphasis on the "pas vu, pas pris" (not seen, not caught)
While, during my time with the EED2 (more than 10 month),many breaking of the rule would mostly go unnoticed, in the IDF, it is the duty of the soldier not to obey any unlawful order, and he is liable if he fails to do so.
In contrast, in France, the idea is much more (right until 1995), do what you are ordered, and your +1 will have to answer any question if any question is asked.
True, in the IDF, an NCO (and I am a commanding NCO in my reserve regiment) has much more initiative than in the Armée de Terre, but he still has to answer to everyone of his decisions)
Beside, and, taking the exemple of the finnish UNIFIL soldiers, if the life of my soldiers and mine was in jeopardy due to a deliberate slowing action of any party (in this case, UNIFIL), I would take every necessary measure to stop that threat. (and that brings a general question about those so-called peace-keeping-missions, but that 's another debate)
And If I was the UNIFIL, I'd be glad I didn't play cow-boy against some crazy Hizaballah RPG totting militiaman, or I wouldn't have any possibility to post my hero film on itube.
Now, and as much as I am polite and courteous in my menial tasks (check-points), if someone dares to endanger me and my troops, for the sake of whatever they perceive should be done in my neighborhood, they gonna have to get real commitment to their mission.

thanks for your experience from inside
when you have some experience you are prompted to think that everybody works the same way you have seen and it is obviously not the case, military culture being different between countries
i'll try not to forget that
regards ....

domokun

07-24-2009, 09:59 PM

Neither Israel or Hezzies respect UNIFIL in any way. Israel doesn't like fact that peacekeepers send their own reports about troop movements of both sides in open frequencies, as that gives more advantage to hezzies. That of course is required by ROE of UNIFIL.

A friend of mine was there in '96, about year before that video was made. He told me that once IDF was conducting patrols in area there had been fire fight. There was report about wounded civilians in area and someone requested aid from Finnish peacekeepers. They had ambulance and doctor in their outpost but there also was Merkava in front of gate that close that no vehicle could exit base, neither ambulance or APC needed to protect it. They didn't have any real reason to move aside. When civilian ambulance from further away got there, there were two wounded civilians, one more severly wounded still alive and one dead, who had apparently survived if aid could have been there faster. IDF isn't deliberately targeting civilians like hezzies do, but they don't exactly cooperate with others in aiding possible collateral damage.

Personally I think it's good that Finland doesn't participate in UNIFIL anymore, operation is useless as ROE doesn't give peacekeepers any possibility to do any good. Useless waste of resources.

gilgoul

07-26-2009, 08:59 AM

thanks for your experience from inside
when you have some experience you are prompted to think that everybody works the same way you have seen and it is obviously not the case, military culture being different between countries
i'll try not to forget that
regards ....

Thank you.
I would even emphasize that I never encountered any animosity in Israel in general nor in the IDF in particular against the UNIFIL.
Sometimes I like other people feel anger toward the political use made of the UNIFIL by their respective governments, but the servicemen aren't looked at with a bad attitude in general.
All I feel personally is sorrow for the service members who take their mission seriously, because they are in a world of frustration and hurt, and disdain toward those who come for the UN bonus and a free tan, because they don't even realize how much they damage this mission.
But above all, and the EED2 having been a part and having lost soldiers on an other UN mission (UNPROFOR), I can't help but wonder about the goals of this mission (lie any other "peace-keeping mission), and the stupid restrictions put on their ROE by political commissars.
If the UNIFIL was doing what it ideally should have been doing for the last 31 years, there would never have been a first or second Lebanon war, and this shouldn't be forgotten.

Connaught Ranger

07-26-2009, 10:22 AM

Thank you.
I would even emphasize that I never encountered any animosity in Israel in general nor in the IDF in particular against the UNIFIL.
Sometimes I like other people feel anger toward the political use made of the UNIFIL by their respective governments, but the servicemen aren't looked at with a bad attitude in general.
All I feel personally is sorrow for the service members who take their mission seriously, because they are in a world of frustration and hurt, and disdain toward those who come for the UN bonus and a free tan, because they don't even realize how much they damage this mission.
But above all, and the EED2 having been a part and having lost soldiers on an other UN mission (UNPROFOR), I can't help but wonder about the goals of this mission (lie any other "peace-keeping mission), and the stupid restrictions put on their ROE by political commissars. (?)
If the UNIFIL was doing what it ideally should have been doing for the last 31 years, there would never have been a first or second Lebanon war, and this shouldn't be forgotten.

Just for clarity can you name a few of these Governments and the period of time(s) this happened?

If I may point your attention to:-

According to Security Council resolutions 425 (1978) (http://daccess-ods.un.org/access.nsf/Get?Open&DS=s/res/425%20%281978%29&Lang=E) and 426 (1978) (http://daccess-ods.un.org/access.nsf/Get?Open&DS=S/RES/426%20%281978%29&Lang=E) of 19 March 1978, U.N.I.F.I.L. was established to:

Confirm the withdrawal of Israeli forces from southern Lebanon;
Restore international peace and security;
Assist the Government of Lebanon in ensuring the return of its effective authority in the area.

In fairness for many of the 31 years you quoted, the Lebanese Government, being divided and split, even for the want of a better word, infiltrated by pro Syrian-Iran factions, they have not been able to establish the effective authority in the country, so there was not much chance of UN.I.F.I.L. being requested to do anything major, UN peacekeeping Missions are not there to take control of any sovereign Nation.

Whats not pointed out in the above is U.N.I.F.I.L. does not have, nor never had a free reign in Lebanon. Nor as equipped as a Peace-keeping force the strength to implement an active combat role in the region, or else they would have been required to engage Israeli Forces when they crossed the border into South Lebanon (and we all know that would never happen.)

According to Security Council resolution 1701 (2006) (http://daccess-ods.un.org/access.nsf/Get?Open&DS=S/RES/1701%20%282006%29&Lang=E&Area=UNDOC) of 11 August 2006, UNIFIL, in addition to carrying out its mandate under resolutions 425 and 426, shall:

Monitor the cessation of hostilities;
Accompany and support the Lebanese armed forces as they deploy throughout the South, including along the Blue Line, as Israel withdraws its armed forces from Lebanon;
Coordinate its activities referred to in the preceding paragraph (above) with the Government of Lebanon and the Government of Israel;
Extend its assistance to help ensure humanitarian access to civilian populations and the voluntary and safe return of displaced persons;
Assist the Lebanese armed forces in taking steps towards the establishment between the Blue Line and the Litani river of an free of any armed personnel, assets and weapons other than those of the Government of Lebanon and of UNIFIL deployed in this area;
Assist the Government of Lebanon, at its request, in securing its borders and other entry points to prevent the entry in Lebanon without its consent of arms or related materiel.

By this resolution, the Council also authorized UNIFIL to take all necessary action in areas of deployment of its forces and as it deems within its capabilities, to ensure that its area of operations is not utilized for hostile activities of any kind; to resist attempts by forceful means to prevent it from discharging its duties under the mandate of the Security Council; and to protect United Nations personnel, facilities, installations and equipment, ensure the security and freedom of movement of United Nations personnel, humanitarian workers and, without prejudice to the responsibility of the Government of Lebanon, to protect civilians under imminent threat of physical violence.

So until the Government of Lebanon is in a position to remove the likes of the armed terrorist Hezbollah militia from within its borders, presumably also requesting assistance from U.N.I.F.I.L., then sadly U.N.I.F.I.L. will continue to sit as piggy in the middle, but they can only try to do the best they can, with the resources at hand.

Connaught Ranger.

gilgoul

07-26-2009, 01:54 PM

Just for clarity can you name a few of these Governments and the period of time(s) this happened?

If I may point your attention to:-

In fairness for many of the 31 years you quoted, the Lebanese Government, being divided and split, even for the want of a better word, infiltrated by pro Syrian-Iran factions, they have not been able to establish the effective authority in the country, so there was not much chance of UN.I.F.I.L. being requested to do anything major, UN peacekeeping Missions are not there to take control of any sovereign Nation.

Whats not pointed out in the above is U.N.I.F.I.L. does not have, nor never had a free reign in Lebanon. Nor as equipped as a Peace-keeping force the strength to implement an active combat role in the region, or else they would have been required to engage Israeli Forces when they crossed the border into South Lebanon (and we all know that would never happen.)

So until the Government of Lebanon is in a position to remove the likes of the armed terrorist Hezbollah militia from within its borders, presumably also requesting assistance from U.N.I.F.I.L., then sadly U.N.I.F.I.L. will continue to sit as piggy in the middle, but they can only try to do the best they can, with the resources at hand.

Connaught Ranger.

I understand that this is a subject close to your heart, and I would not doubt your honesty, even though I find your systematic and broad defense of the mission of the UNIFIL somewhat disturbing, because instead of helping to bring the conditions of peace, it has allowed this conflict to simmer for too long.
Let's not forget the reasons that led to the establishment of this force. The constant shelling and incursions by the PLO (rings a bell), the fact that since 1968, the south of Lebanon was in fact Fatah Land (before the civil war), and the straw that broke the camel's back, the Coastal road massacre, in wich a "commando" of PLO "freedom fighters" commandeered two bus, and killed about 40 civilians in the worst shooting spree the country ever witnessed.
Israel responded in a limited operation that stayed south of the Litani river, the PLO escaped north, and even though large quantities of equipment and ammo were captured, the PLO was far from reduced, and with the support of soviet UNion, reconstituted it's stocks to a better level than before (rings another bell?)
If the UNIFIL had been given a mandate alowing it to actually prevent incursion and aggression from any part of the border, the situation would have been way different today.
But instead of that, it contented itself to perform some "humanitarian" work, talked on open frequencies of troop movements and allowed both PLO and Hizballay to build combat positions under it's very nose.

If the UNIFIL can't do any good, why is that mission being reconducted in catimini in NY every 6 months?
If the excuse for those bad performances is the lack of "sovereignty" in Lebanon, well, the wording and the spirit of the mandate ought to be changed.

Connaught Ranger

07-27-2009, 06:49 AM

I understand that this is a subject close to your heart, and I would not doubt your honesty, even though I find your systematic and broad defense of the mission of the UNIFIL somewhat disturbing, because instead of helping to bring the conditions of peace, it has allowed this conflict to simmer for too long.

Let's not forget the reasons that led to the establishment of this force. The constant shelling and incursions by the PLO (rings a bell), the fact that since 1968, the south of Lebanon was in fact Fatah Land (before the civil war), and the straw that broke the camel's back, the Coastal road massacre, in wich a "commando" of PLO "freedom fighters" commandeered two bus, and killed about 40 civilians in the worst shooting spree the country ever witnessed.

Israel responded in a limited operation that stayed south of the Litani river, the PLO escaped north, and even though large quantities of equipment and ammo were captured, the PLO was far from reduced, and with the support of soviet UNion, reconstituted it's stocks to a better level than before (rings another bell?)
If the UNIFIL had been given a mandate alowing it to actually prevent incursion and aggression from any part of the border, the situation would have been way different today.
But instead of that, it contented itself to perform some "humanitarian" work, talked on open frequencies of troop movements and allowed both PLO and Hizballay to build combat positions under it's very nose.

If the UNIFIL can't do any good, why is that mission being reconducted in catimini in NY every 6 months?
If the excuse for those bad performances is the lack of "sovereignty" in Lebanon, well, the wording and the spirit of the mandate ought to be changed.

Nice sidestep of my request for you too name the Governments with troops on the U.N.I.F.I.L. mission, and at what periods of time, who were using U.N.I.F.I.L. to implement their own agenda, as you stated in post 63. :roll:

So, because I do not follow your direct line of thinking its disturbing? :roll:

By the way even with all your soft soap, I do not find any sincerity in your words with regards the men & women who serve in U.N.I.F.I.L.

Such phrases as:-
All I feel personally is sorrow for the service members who take their mission seriously, because they are in a world of frustration and hurt, and disdain toward those who come for the UN bonus and a free tan, because they don't even realize how much they damage this mission.as well as:-
having lost soldiers on an other UN mission (UNPROFOR) This thread is about U.N.I.F.I.L., as each U.N. Mission is a separate entity,you cannot pass judgment and lump them all in the same category.

If the UNIFIL was doing what it ideally should have been doing for the last 31 years, there would never have been a first or second Lebanon war, and this shouldn't be forgotten.Those words could just as easily be directed to the sovereign governments of Israel, Lebanon, Syria, who are mainly engaged in this conflict. You appear to be under the illusion that the U.N. (which is not a sovereign nation, and with no access to a standing military force, is guilty of failing to provide a magic solution to the problems in the middle-East.)

The U.N.I.F.I.L. Force has followed its mandate, it has no power to take matters into its own hands, and as a peace-keeping force has to follow the wishes of its host country, and respect their laws, but, you seem to have a problem with that, neither is it there to do the wishes of one of the most powerful military states in the region.

Most of the P.L.O. were shipped out of Lebanon, Yasser Arafat and his command structure were located in Gaza for years, did Israel manage to fix the problem? No! how come? surely there were no U.N.I.F.I.L. troops in the area to prevent you from carrying out a mission to decapitate the terrorists?

Yes, here I am being sarcastic, because I have just shown that its not as simple to resolve a problem, even when the ball is in your own court.

with regards:-
Let's not forget the reasons that led to the establishment of this force. One could easily state "Let us not forget the reasons for the cause of the trouble in the Middle East, the U.N, vote in 1948 which ultimately lead to the creation of the State of Israel."

A state which was as equally supplied with weapons and support by the U.S.A. as the P.L.O. received from the former Soviet Russia. Its called choosing sides, when your own government is playing the game, then expect your neighbors to do the same.

A real childish comment:-
soviet UNion :roll:

Israel was in the receipt of large amounts of U.S. military aid and Israel itself propped up, clothed, armed, financed, etc, its proxy the South Lebanese Army (S.L.A.) for years, so it could maintain a buffer zone, yet the P.L.O. (and later Hizbollah) were always making concentrated efforts to get through to launch attacks against Israel proper.

Even today there are large areas of the border that are not fully secured, U.N.I.F.I.L. can only deploy the men and women it has so far. Even Israel is unable to secure every centimeter of its borders 24 hours a day.

And going back to the start of this thread, where is their any factual evidence that U.N.I.F.I.L. actively helped unarmed Lebanese civilians to invade Israel as the posts states:-

"[The demonstrators] stood opposite the UNIFIL force, [which did nothing,] and worse than that, according to statements made by the organizers of the demonstration, they even cooperated with them," the letter read.So, in what form did the cooperation take place, did U.N.I.F.I.L. transport the civilians across the border in their vehicles?

Did U.N.I.F.I.L. help to remove the security fence / barriers?

Just what did U.N.I.F.I.L. do? had they failed to open fire on a bunch of unarmed Lebanese civilians, thus preventing them getting access to Israel?

Connaught Ranger

gilgoul

08-01-2009, 04:18 PM

Nice sidestep of my request for you too name the Governments with troops on the U.N.I.F.I.L. mission, and at what periods of time, who were using U.N.I.F.I.L. to implement their own agenda, as you stated in post 63. :roll:

So, because I do not follow your direct line of thinking its disturbing? :roll:

By the way even with all your soft soap, I do not find any sincerity in your words with regards the men & women who serve in U.N.I.F.I.L.

Such phrases as:- as well as:- This thread is about U.N.I.F.I.L., as each U.N. Mission is a separate entity,you cannot pass judgment and lump them all in the same category.

Those words could just as easily be directed to the sovereign governments of Israel, Lebanon, Syria, who are mainly engaged in this conflict. You appear to be under the illusion that the U.N. (which is not a sovereign nation, and with no access to a standing military force, is guilty of failing to provide a magic solution to the problems in the middle-East.)

The U.N.I.F.I.L. Force has followed its mandate, it has no power to take matters into its own hands, and as a peace-keeping force has to follow the wishes of its host country, and respect their laws, but, you seem to have a problem with that, neither is it there to do the wishes of one of the most powerful military states in the region.

Most of the P.L.O. were shipped out of Lebanon, Yasser Arafat and his command structure were located in Gaza for years, did Israel manage to fix the problem? No! how come? surely there were no U.N.I.F.I.L. troops in the area to prevent you from carrying out a mission to decapitate the terrorists?

Yes, here I am being sarcastic, because I have just shown that its not as simple to resolve a problem, even when the ball is in your own court.

with regards:- One could easily state "Let us not forget the reasons for the cause of the trouble in the Middle East, the U.N, vote in 1948 which ultimately lead to the creation of the State of Israel."

A state which was as equally supplied with weapons and support by the U.S.A. as the P.L.O. received from the former Soviet Russia. Its called choosing sides, when your own government is playing the game, then expect your neighbors to do the same.

A real childish comment:- :roll:

Israel was in the receipt of large amounts of U.S. military aid and Israel itself propped up, clothed, armed, financed, etc, its proxy the South Lebanese Army (S.L.A.) for years, so it could maintain a buffer zone, yet the P.L.O. (and later Hizbollah) were always making concentrated efforts to get through to launch attacks against Israel proper.

Even today there are large areas of the border that are not fully secured, U.N.I.F.I.L. can only deploy the men and women it has so far. Even Israel is unable to secure every centimeter of its borders 24 hours a day.

And going back to the start of this thread, where is their any factual evidence that U.N.I.F.I.L. actively helped unarmed Lebanese civilians to invade Israel as the posts states:-

So, in what form did the cooperation take place, did U.N.I.F.I.L. transport the civilians across the border in their vehicles?

Did U.N.I.F.I.L. help to remove the security fence / barriers?

Just what did U.N.I.F.I.L. do? had they failed to open fire on a bunch of unarmed Lebanese civilians, thus preventing them getting access to Israel?

Connaught Ranger

My god, you are even more paranoid than a polish jew, the Soviet UNion was a typo.
Beside, I do feel real empathy for the fate of UN serving soldiers in most of their ****ed up missions,
Having to come in the middle of a conflict zone without being given the tools of the trade, and playing sniper sitting duck with blue helmets is definitely not the job I'd sign for.
But your comment "with regards:- One could easily state "Let us not forget the reasons for the cause of the trouble in the Middle East, the U.N, vote in 1948 which ultimately lead to the creation of the State of Israel."
Sums it up for me.
Unfortunately, you make the reputation of the Irish battalion a bit more true to me, while I always tried to not see it this way.
Take your UNIFIL, your UNTSO, and your UNWRA out of this area, it will be much better for everybody around.
And I'll quote De Gaulle, by qualifying the UN of a "machin", a thing, that has become an instrument of nothingness, or even worse.

Connaught Ranger

08-01-2009, 04:53 PM

My god, you are even more paranoid than a polish jew, the Soviet UNion was a typo.
Beside, I do feel real empathy for the fate of UN serving soldiers in most of their ****ed up missions,
Having to come in the middle of a conflict zone without being given the tools of the trade, and playing sniper sitting duck with blue helmets is definitely not the job I'd sign for.
But your comment "with regards:- One could easily state "Let us not forget the reasons for the cause of the trouble in the Middle East, the U.N, vote in 1948 which ultimately lead to the creation of the State of Israel."
Sums it up for me.
Unfortunately, you make the reputation of the Irish battalion a bit more true to me, while I always tried to not see it this way.
Take your UNIFIL, your UNTSO, and your UNWRA out of this area, it will be much better for everybody around.
And I'll quote De Gaulle, by qualifying the UN of a "machin", a thing, that has become an instrument of nothingness, or even worse.

Nice try but you are not qualified to rate me as being paranoid.

You still have not posted the information I simply asked for, mmm! I wonder is it because there are no Governments using U.N.I.F.I.L. for any nefarious schemes?

And as far as I recall no Irish UN Soldiers were ever killed by sniper fire, Israeli Tank rounds yes, murdered in cold blood by the SLA, yes, Hizbollah machinegun fire, yes, Landmines / IEDs, yes, but that is a price we are willing to pay when we volunteer to serve the cause of peace.

And your further posting revels you true attitude to the men and women who serve in the U.N.I.F.I.L. Forces.

The Irish U.N. Battalions worldwide have a reputation second to none in the world of peacekeeping, so whatever you are trying to infer goes straight over my head.:roll:

And De Gaulle, who was a mere man, was entitled to hold his own opinion.

I do not see any of the Middle-East U.N. Missions leaving the area any time soon, especially not because of your wishful thinking.

Connaught Ranger.:)

timetraveller

08-01-2009, 05:01 PM