AR-180 or AR-15 [Archive] - Military Photos

ThePlato

07-21-2009, 01:03 AM

Okay, murder me if you so desire but I've searched and could not find another thread.

So here is my question. I'm planning on purchasing either an AR-180 or building a Vietnam style AR-15. I like simplicity. Anyhow, I'm torn as to which I should commit myself. I figured I'd ask you guys on personal opinions on both rifles. I'll be using this for target shooting but also for straight out plinking.

I've shot an AR-15 before (I'm in the Navy) but I've never had the opportunity to fire a AR-180.

Anyhow, all thoughts are welcome. Long as they are civil.

Pictures for those who are... picture minded?

AR-180
http://i25.tinypic.com/2m800f6.jpg

AR-15 (A1)
http://i28.tinypic.com/33ldz75.jpg

MaverickCowboy

07-21-2009, 01:06 AM

the places this thread will go!.

Hollis

07-21-2009, 01:06 AM

Get both. :) I have a AR 180, made around 1965, set up for target.

The AR would work too.

Bro Jangles

07-21-2009, 01:08 AM

Man if i had the money id go AR180, ARs will be here for ever.

Hollis

07-21-2009, 01:11 AM

Man if i had the money id go AR180, ARs will be here for ever.

The AR 180 has been resurrected as the AR 180 B.

kramer

07-21-2009, 01:11 AM

AR-180 too. Simply because it has a folding stock. But what do I know? Never shot any of them.

ThePlato

07-21-2009, 01:12 AM

Get both. :) I have a AR 180, made around 1965, set up for target.

The AR would work too.

And eventually I'll have the money but not at the moment. So I have to start somewhere.

Arnie100

07-21-2009, 01:12 AM

Definetely AR-180!!

ThePlato

07-21-2009, 01:13 AM

The AR 180 has been resurrected as the AR 180 B.

I've heard purist rip that thing apart and praise it. So I'm confused. If I do get an AR-180, should I go 70/80's production or the new B model?

Bro Jangles

07-21-2009, 01:14 AM

The AR 180 has been resurrected as the AR 180 B.
but the number in the market is nowhere near as many as the billions of AR derivatives.

Hollis

07-21-2009, 01:16 AM

I've heard purist rip that thing apart and praise it. So I'm confused. If I do get an AR-180, should I go 70/80's production or the new B model?

180 B will take AR magazines. I have not looked at the 180 B, It suppose to be reasonably priced (what ever reasonable is)

http://www.gunblast.com/AR-180B.htm

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k226/Hollis6475/0AR1801.jpg

gaijinsamurai

07-21-2009, 01:18 AM

The older AR-180s were made much better. They'll also cost more money, unless you are lucky to find one from a seller who doesn't know the worth of the rifle.

While the AR-180b will accept the standard M16/AR15/M4 magazine, it has a polymer lower that has not enjoyed a good reputation. Also, the buttstock doesn't fold, like the originals.

If I had a choice between getting a new AR-15 or an old AR-180, I would definitely buy the AR-180, with no hesitation.

LRPV

07-21-2009, 01:19 AM

I'm in Australia, I'm just jealous you have a choice...lucky bugger.

ThePlato

07-21-2009, 01:23 AM

If I had a choice between getting a new AR-15 or an old AR-180, I would definitely buy the AR-180, with no hesitation.

No argument there. Seems like the unanimous choice is the AR-180

Bro Jangles

07-21-2009, 01:23 AM

I'm in Australia, I'm just jealous you have a choice...lucky bugger.
i feel for you, im poor. i cant afford to shoot the guns i have, let alone buy a new one.

Bro Jangles

07-21-2009, 01:24 AM

No argument there. Seems like the unanimous choice is the AR-180
Ar180s are not cali legal are they?

ThePlato

07-21-2009, 01:24 AM

I'm in Australia, I'm just jealous you have a choice...lucky bugger.

Indeed. Quite a shame since you have a lovely wilderness out there just begging to have some .223 shot into it.

ThePlato

07-21-2009, 01:26 AM

Ar180s are not cali legal are they?

I'm deployed everywhere although home base is Cali. But the best way to put it is this, in my job within the Navy they allow me to have certain firearms not otherwise allowed.

Gleipnir

07-21-2009, 01:30 AM

Ar180s are not cali legal are they?
Unfortunately, they are not legal in California. :-(

LRPV

07-21-2009, 01:37 AM

i feel for you, im poor. i cant afford to shoot the guns i have, let alone buy a new one.

Thanks mate...talking to a guy in a place where airsoft is illegal I really feel better.:-( I go to equipment a gear section just to remind myself there is a world outside of this nanny-state.

...now go have a plink for me:)

Bro Jangles

07-21-2009, 01:42 AM

Thanks mate...talking to a guy in a place where airsoft is illegal I really feel better.:-( I go to equipment a gear section just to remind myself there is a world outside of this nanny-state.come to the good ole USA, well give anyone a gun p-)

...now go have a plink for me:)
well i got 100 shotgun shells, why not..

LRPV

07-21-2009, 01:44 AM

Indeed. Quite a shame since you have a lovely wilderness out there just begging to have some .223 shot into it.

In 1996 after "The Great Ban" over 150 000 semi-automatic center-fire rifles were unaccounted for....

The Australian 3 May 3021

Local archeologists have made bemusing finds across Australian digs. It appears that around the turn of the millenium in 2000 a strange culture existed. People at that time ceremonially greased their firearms and buried them in lengths of sealed sewerage pipe. Culture at the time.....

junglejim

07-21-2009, 01:50 AM

M-16A1 FTW!!! Wait wot?!

Movieman

07-21-2009, 02:34 AM

come to the good ole USA, well give anyone a gun p-)

well i got 100 shotgun shells, why not..

Come to Utah or Texas just to be safe. I got an AR-15 in Utah before I cough get a can of dip legally.

Bro Jangles

07-21-2009, 02:36 AM

Come to Utah or Texas just to be safe. I got an AR-15 in Utah before I cough get a can of dip legally.
i have; an AR, AK, Mosin, Mossberg, sks, garand, and i cant buy beer.

Aldo Penniconi

07-21-2009, 04:27 AM

I've shot an AR-15 before (I'm in the Navy) but I've never had the opportunity to fire a AR-180.

Take it this way, the AR-15 is your work weapon and the AR180 is your own weapon.:)

shuredgefan

07-21-2009, 05:18 AM

The original AR-18 and AR180 had a badly designed Bolt Hold Open. It worked fine as long as you didn't allow the hammer to fall when the upper receiver was "shotgunned" or removed from the lower because it would hit the plunger tube on the underside of the BHO and break it off.

If you get a chance to buy an original AR-180 make sure you check that the BHO is intact.

To inspect, make sure the hammer is cocked w/ the safety on, then shotgun the upper by pushing the bolt carrier guide forward and find the BHO immediately behind the mag well. A functional BHO has a spring loaded button protruding from the top of the device.

The AR-180b redesign fixed this weakness.

Unfortunately, Armalite ceased production of the AR-180b a few years ago because high demand for AR-15 type rifles.

I got the following response to a query about Armalite restarting AR-180b production with maybe a folding stock this time:

The 180B isn’t dead, we’re waiting to see what happens with another possible ban as we’re looking to make some upgrades to it and don’t want to invest the time, R & D and money to do this now when a ban might stop it’s production.

Tim Rooker
Tech - Internet Support / Sales
ArmaLite Inc.
745 South Hanford Street
Geneseo, IL 61254
309-944-6939
Fax 309-944-6949
rookert@armalite.com
www.armalite.com (http://www.armalite.com/)

call_me_ski

07-21-2009, 08:09 AM

i wonder why so many people are for the ar18. it was an interesting design but it stopped evolving the moment it was created.

for a first rifle the ar15 is the best bet. they exist for every price range, parts are everywhere, you can modify it to do anything you would ever need, and they work.

there are some interesting designs out there, but i have put thousands of rounds through ar15 type rifles, predominantly the m4, and i have had exactly one stoppage, that was magazine related. and the thing is as accurate as i would ever ask of any rifle of this type.

the ar 18 is a cool obscure collectors piece, but for a functional rifle that i intend to shoot the ar15 is the better of the two choices, especially for a first rifle.

gaijinsamurai

07-21-2009, 01:59 PM

Call Me Ski, you've made some valid points, in regards to the logistical advantages an AR-15 would provide. And you're right about that.

As far as the AR-180/AR-18 not having been improved upon, I would submit that the AR-180/18 itself was intended to be an improvement on the M16 by the designer of both rifles, Eugene Stoner.

Unfortunately, the AR-18 was never adopted as a standard service rifle by any government. Not because it was a bad design, but because of politics and poor timing. In the '70s, production was taken over by Sterling in the UK, then Howa Industries in Japan. The Japanese refused to make the rifle available to any country involved in conflict, and because the US was still in Vietnam, could not benefit from having the rifle available. Also, by that time, a lot of the major flaws of the original M16 had been de-bugged, and the US Government had already invested a lot into that rifle.

Interesting info, Suredgefan. I hope the AR-180B goes back into production, with the flaws fixed. I'd especially like to see them improve the quality of the lower receiver, and provide a folding stock like the original. If that happens, I'll do what I have to do to add one to my collection (gotta keep up with Hollis!).

Hollis

07-21-2009, 02:54 PM

I don't know if it is flaw, but yes, life and death of many of a firearm and ammo, is based on popularity. I have several shooters that ammo is no longer commercially available...... No problem here.. I make my own cases. :)

For a first firearm, really hard for me online to make a suggestion. Generally anything auto, might be best avoided because of the safety concerns a new owner has to deal with. Easier to make a mistake with a auto loader than and wheel gun or a bolt gun.

I really cannot also say that a AR is a better choice or a better shooter. I think people rank better based on their own experiences, their skill levels and other needs of theirs. We just don't always shares those points.

Next, is the first firearm the last firearm? If it is not, then does it matter where one starts. I would say a AR 180 would be a better choice on the cost end, it will just go up in the future and just might be a better investment. If a ban goes through, then either one will be a good investment.

Over time people can add to their collection, make trades and sell stuff off, so in a long run situation, it may not matter which is first. The benefit of many firearms, one can obtain one, trade or purchase, shoot it and determine if it is the firearm for them. If it is not the firearm for them, they can sell it or trade it off... they even might make a few dollars doing so. Secret is to buy/trade smart.

Call me ski, you wonder about the AR 180 (AR 18 is the military select fire model) Have you ever owned one? I like reading about firearm but I don't not use that for a bases of fact on buying one or not. I add some other aspects to my decision. I like my AR 180, and consider it to be a good decision on my part. I traded one off sometime back and regretted it. So Now I have the one that I have and I plan on keeping it. I would not like to make a choice between getting rid of my AR 15 or my AR 180. I would probably drop the AR 15, because it is easier to replace later. I would just hate to do it.

ThePlato

07-21-2009, 04:43 PM

Lots of good information posted! Thanks to everyone. Certainly something to mull over. In regards to concerns above I'm quite familiar with many weapons systems it's just that I've resisted getting any type of Armalite rifle for so long because it's typically what I use in the course of my career. The AR-180 has always had some type of odd *** appeal with me. I like it's lines and curves.

I'm thinking I'll probably get either a Costa Mesa and or Sterling production AR-180. I figure AR-15's will always be in good supply.

Bro Jangles

07-21-2009, 04:45 PM

Remember the golden rule - Post Pics!

D.E. Watters

07-21-2009, 04:48 PM

As far as the AR-180/AR-18 not having been improved upon, I would submit that the AR-180/18 itself was intended to be an improvement on the M16 by the designer of both rifles, Eugene Stoner.

Actually, Gene Stoner did not design the AR-18; Arthur Miller did. Stoner had already left ArmaLite by that point, and had taken up with Cadillac Gage to design what became the Stoner 62 and 63. The Stoner influence on the AR-18 came from his earlier AR-12 and AR-16 prototypes in 7.62mm NATO. The AR-12 was a concept weapon to plot out what an austere version of the AR-10 might look like. While it was intended to eventually be made from metal stampings, the prototype's receiver was machined from aluminum. It originally used the direct impingement gas system of the AR-10, but after the licensing of the related patents to Colt, the rifle was redesigned for a short stroke piston. The AR-16 actually used metal stampings and carried over the short stroke piston. Stoner would later testify that the use of the short stroke piston was not his first choice, but he had no option now that Fairchild/ArmaLite had handed over the patent rights. The use of stampings was to allow for cheaper construction.

ThePlato

07-21-2009, 05:00 PM

Remember the golden rule - Post Pics!

But of-course.

shuredgefan

07-21-2009, 05:30 PM

The AR-180 has always had some type of odd *** appeal with me. I like it's lines and curves.

I agree that it has a certain je ne sais quoi, but where it really shines is its feel, its balance and pointablity.

The only ergonomic problem is the narrowness of stock, made that way on purpose to reduce the bulkiness of the rifle when it's folded.

Laworkerbee

07-21-2009, 05:32 PM

Kilo1-1

07-21-2009, 05:49 PM

Actually, Gene Stoner did not design the AR-18; Arthur Miller did. Stoner had already left ArmaLite by that point, and had taken up with Cadillac Gage to design what became the Stoner 62 and 63. The Stoner influence on the AR-18 came from his earlier AR-12 and AR-16 prototypes in 7.62mm NATO. The AR-12 was a concept weapon to plot out what an austere version of the AR-10 might look like. While it was intended to eventually be made from metal stampings, the prototype's receiver was machined from aluminum. It originally used the direct impingement gas system of the AR-10, but after the licensing of the related patents to Colt, the rifle was redesigned for a short stroke piston. The AR-16 actually used metal stampings and carried over the short stroke piston. Stoner would later testify that the use of the short stroke piston was not his first choice, but he had no option now that Fairchild/ArmaLite had handed over the patent rights. The use of stampings was to allow for cheaper construction.
Correct. I think I read an article about this in Small Arms Review.

If you can find one, get a Japanese HOWA AR180....but expect to pay a lot for one. Arthur Miller said they were the better/best quality AR180s, even better made than the ones made by Armalite in the US.

The AR180B was ok, but I didn't really like the polymer lower and the lack of the folding stock.
AR180s in general are great guns..but there aren't as many after market parts for it like the AR15s. I didn't like how it doesn't have an external bolt catch like the AR15, but other than that, it's a fun plinker gun.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/9716/ar180one.jpg

shuredgefan

07-21-2009, 06:00 PM

I've only handled one Howa many years ago. It seemed to be well made, with a nice parkerized finish.

The only neg on it was the safety required a 180 degree rotation to go from Safe to Semi instead of the standard 90 degrees.

I recall it was very expensive as well.:-(

ThePlato

07-21-2009, 07:17 PM

Hey I live here too, who do I have to blow to get my hands on a 180?

haha. Just get in the right job within the military or police force and you won't have to blow anyone.

Laworkerbee

07-21-2009, 07:20 PM

haha. Just get in the right job within the military or police force and you won't have to blow anyone.

So, blowjobs anyone? :|

California Joe

07-21-2009, 08:25 PM

Wow, married Marilyn Monroe, wrote Death of a Salesman,The Crucible, and designed the AR 180. Dude had mad skills....

p-)

D.E. Watters

07-21-2009, 08:44 PM

Wow, married Marilyn Monroe, wrote Death of a Salesman,The Crucible, and designed the AR 180. Dude had mad skills....

p-)

Yeah, I knew that was coming. :-P

That said, Small Arms Review had an interesting two-part interview with Miller (the AR-18 designer) a few months ago.

3rdMillhouse

07-21-2009, 08:47 PM

Are we going for aesthetics here? Cause if so, then choose the AR-15.

Bro Jangles

07-21-2009, 09:13 PM

The Terminator used an AR18. /thread

gaijinsamurai

07-22-2009, 01:20 AM

Actually, Gene Stoner did not design the AR-18; Arthur Miller did. Stoner had already left ArmaLite by that point, and had taken up with Cadillac Gage to design what became the Stoner 62 and 63. The Stoner influence on the AR-18 came from his earlier AR-12 and AR-16 prototypes in 7.62mm NATO. The AR-12 was a concept weapon to plot out what an austere version of the AR-10 might look like. While it was intended to eventually be made from metal stampings, the prototype's receiver was machined from aluminum. It originally used the direct impingement gas system of the AR-10, but after the licensing of the related patents to Colt, the rifle was redesigned for a short stroke piston. The AR-16 actually used metal stampings and carried over the short stroke piston. Stoner would later testify that the use of the short stroke piston was not his first choice, but he had no option now that Fairchild/ArmaLite had handed over the patent rights. The use of stampings was to allow for cheaper construction.

Thanks for setting me straight, DE! Somewhere a long time ago, I read that Stoner was the designer of the AR-18, and I always assumed it to have been true. I'm glad to know better now!

gaijinsamurai

07-22-2009, 01:23 AM

Are we going for aesthetics here? Cause if so, then choose the AR-15.

Gotta disagree!!!!!

The AR-180 is a beauty, rivaled only by the FAL and FNC amongst post-WWII black rifles for visual appeal!

junglejim

07-22-2009, 01:27 AM

Yeah the AR-180 sure sucked at timming, even when the Philippines got the license and copy of the design for both type of rifles when it bought Armalite under Ferdinand Marcos' Self Defence Reliance Program for the Philippines... before the AFP could take advantage of it, Ferdinand Marcos was overthrown and all his projects mothballed and Armalite was sold back to the US.

m-37b1

07-22-2009, 03:17 PM

I had both an AR-180 and an AR-15 back in the late 80's I liked them both. Found the 180 takes a little more skill to shoot consistently. It has a little stiffer recoil than the AR-15. However, the 180 would shoot and shoot, even the crappiest ammo with out stoppage. Almost AK like in it's ability to ignor dirt.

I really liked the looks of the 180, and the folding stock. Soooo.....
For ultimate accuracy, I'd go with the 15.
For Good accuracy with great reliability, I'd go with the 180.

ThePlato

07-22-2009, 11:57 PM

I've got somebody offering me a great condition sterling with original scope and scope mount. Along with 5 30 rnd mags. 1200 USD. I think I found a winner.

Kilo1-1

07-23-2009, 01:10 AM

Hm, not a bad price with the stuff that comes with it I suppose. I heard that the later Sterling models were a bit on the 'rough' side with QC, but it should still be good to go. How old is it? You might be able to negotiate a to lower price lol.

Good luck.

gaijinsamurai

07-23-2009, 01:15 AM

Kilo1-1

07-23-2009, 02:50 AM

I saw a Sterling AR-180 in a gunstore last September, and the asking price was $1100. That was without optics.

I passed one up that was being offered for $800, ten years ago, when I opted for a new "Post-ban" Bushmaster AR instead. I regret that decision.

Don't we all have regrets. :-(
Too bad the AR180 series never really caught on, they're great 'general' purpose rifles.

shuredgefan

07-23-2009, 03:07 AM

I've got somebody offering me a great condition sterling with original scope and scope mount. Along with 5 30 rnd mags. 1200 USD. I think I found a winner.With the scope, that's probably as cheap as you'll find these days.

If the 30s are original Sterling mags, I suggest you get some new production thermolds, because they're rarer than the insanely expensive Sterling 40s and might warrant being preserved instead of used.

Another thing, I'd try to find at least one 40, the 180 looks super-cool with the long mag. And like someone earlier said, the Terminator used one.p-)

ThePlato

07-23-2009, 10:15 AM

Another thing, I'd try to find at least one 40, the 180 looks super-cool with the long mag. And like someone earlier said, the Terminator used one.p-)

The whole purpose of buying the AR-180 was so that I could show up at the range with my widow maker, fold the stock and shoot it one handed while uttering my best Arnold impersonations.

But yes, I agree that the 40 round mags look great.

As far as the 30 rnders being sterling original... I have no idea, I didn't look at them. I'll check next time.

shuredgefan

07-23-2009, 03:17 PM

I don't know what to say.:roll: Link (http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=134941574)

ThePlato

07-23-2009, 04:26 PM

Oh god the agony

James

07-23-2009, 04:51 PM

Here's one (http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=134948041) with a 40 round mag that's got no reserve... Tempting...

shuredgefan

07-23-2009, 05:25 PM

timetraveller

07-23-2009, 05:52 PM

Here's one (http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=134948041) with a 40 round mag that's got no reserve... Tempting...

That is pretty cheap actually wrking out at £600 i was indeed surprised that the price .. was expecting to it be priced in the 1.000 plus region

It reminds me of the M16 visually but to the trained eye you'd know differently

ThePlato

07-23-2009, 05:53 PM

Hollis

07-23-2009, 06:17 PM

Oh yeah, one thing to remember, with an original AR-180, you can't use m855/ss109 rounds because it has a 1:12" (300mm) twist barrel.

The AR-180b has a 1:9" (225mm) barrel and can use the heavier bullets.

There is a difference in can not use and not being as accurate.

Any bullet that is for a .223 can be shot out of a AR 180, AR 15. The difference might be accuracy.

Often unless you not shooting bench rest competition, It does not matter.