Level III ICW Plates

[chardson67]

Hi Folks,

I'm just wondering if a Level III ICW Plate (ceramic) (inconjunction with) will stop 5.56 and 7.62 even without a Level IIIA vest? i've not shot it personally with a 5.56 and 7.62, so before I do, i'd like to know if someone has done it already, therefore I won't be wasting my Level III ICW plate.

My thinking is that it will not be penetrated but the indentation and back blast might bruise, break a rib or worst still penetrate? whoah!

Specialised suggestions would be very much appreciated!

Thanks!

[ZoneOne]

Hi Folks,

I'm just wondering if a Level III ICW Plate (ceramic) (inconjunction with) will stop 5.56 and 7.62 even without a Level IIIA vest? i've not shot it personally with a 5.56 and 7.62, so before I do, i'd like to know if someone has done it already, therefore I won't be wasting my Level III ICW plate.

My thinking is that it will not be penetrated but the indentation and back blast might bruise, break a rib or worst still penetrate? whoah!

Specialised suggestions would be very much appreciated!

Thanks!

I think the question we all have is... Who will be wearing the plates when you shoot it?

[Soldat_Américain]

his motherrofl

[chardson67]

Politicians back in the Philippines :)

[Deathchant]

Politicians back in the Philippines :)

In some sick way I hope thats not a joke.

[Seraphim]

Hi Folks,

I'm just wondering if a Level III ICW Plate (ceramic) (inconjunction with) will stop 5.56 and 7.62 even without a Level IIIA vest? i've not shot it personally with a 5.56 and 7.62, so before I do, i'd like to know if someone has done it already, therefore I won't be wasting my Level III ICW plate.

My thinking is that it will not be penetrated but the indentation and back blast might bruise, break a rib or worst still penetrate? whoah!

Specialised suggestions would be very much appreciated!

Thanks!

Wtf are you talking about? You want to shoot your ceramic plate but not ruin it? :cantbeli:

[Bro Jangles]

Wtf are you talking about? You want to shoot your ceramic plate but not ruin it? :cantbeli:
Dont ceramic plates break to stop the bullet!

[Hippo]

hello friends,

Last year I made the decision to trust my life on the street to Second Chance body armor. I got the level IIa because it stops the most rounds. plus I got the Trauma Plate for the front.

What scares me is that, although I can fit an extra trauma plate in the front, I cannot fit a second one in back. As of late I have taken to duct-taping a second trauma plate to the area of my back where the heart and vital organs are located. Then I put my vest on.

Here is the questions. The ducttape solution, although tactically sound, is hot and painful to remove. I would like to go to the single-plate solution in back. What I am worried about is repeated hits to that area with .308 ammunition. I have a high-risk security job and I fear that I would be the target for repeated long-distance shots to my back.

Are any of you aware of a thicker plate that could stop, say, .338 Lapua or something like that? Is there a better way to do the second plate?

BTW, I am, of course, usually carrying a pair of ceramic plates in my briefcase so that I can shield my head. My SO (we work as a team when necessary) has a similar accessory containing a breakdown NEF single-shot 300 WinMag with an 18" bbl. The plan is that I shield us with my body and “catch the rounds” while she assembles the NEF. I lay down covering fire with my 23 (Bar-Sto .357 Sig barrel) and she makes the long shots. I will then throw smoke grenades to obscure the area while continuing to lay covering fire. The problem, of course, is when I have to turn my back to run, and then the problem crops up.

Thanks!

[Enduring Freedom]

hello friends,

Last year I made the decision to trust my life on the street to Second Chance body armor. I got the level IIa because it stops the most rounds. plus I got the Trauma Plate for the front.

What scares me is that, although I can fit an extra trauma plate in the front, I cannot fit a second one in back. As of late I have taken to duct-taping a second trauma plate to the area of my back where the heart and vital organs are located. Then I put my vest on.

Here is the questions. The ducttape solution, although tactically sound, is hot and painful to remove. I would like to go to the single-plate solution in back. What I am worried about is repeated hits to that area with .308 ammunition. I have a high-risk security job and I fear that I would be the target for repeated long-distance shots to my back.

Are any of you aware of a thicker plate that could stop, say, .338 Lapua or something like that? Is there a better way to do the second plate?

BTW, I am, of course, usually carrying a pair of ceramic plates in my briefcase so that I can shield my head. My SO (we work as a team when necessary) has a similar accessory containing a breakdown NEF single-shot 300 WinMag with an 18" bbl. The plan is that I shield us with my body and “catch the rounds” while she assembles the NEF. I lay down covering fire with my 23 (Bar-Sto .357 Sig barrel) and she makes the long shots. I will then throw smoke grenades to obscure the area while continuing to lay covering fire. The problem, of course, is when I have to turn my back to run, and then the problem crops up.

Thanks!

Please, tell me this is a joke!

BTW what's a Colt 191? I've only heard a Colt 1911.

[Soldat_Américain]

Oh...yeah that's like a top secret super gun...think of a hand held rail gun.

[Seraphim]

hello friends,

Last year I made the decision to trust my life on the street to Second Chance body armor. I got the level IIa because it stops the most rounds. plus I got the Trauma Plate for the front.

What scares me is that, although I can fit an extra trauma plate in the front, I cannot fit a second one in back. As of late I have taken to duct-taping a second trauma plate to the area of my back where the heart and vital organs are located. Then I put my vest on.

Here is the questions. The ducttape solution, although tactically sound, is hot and painful to remove. I would like to go to the single-plate solution in back. What I am worried about is repeated hits to that area with .308 ammunition. I have a high-risk security job and I fear that I would be the target for repeated long-distance shots to my back.

Are any of you aware of a thicker plate that could stop, say, .338 Lapua or something like that? Is there a better way to do the second plate?

BTW, I am, of course, usually carrying a pair of ceramic plates in my briefcase so that I can shield my head. My SO (we work as a team when necessary) has a similar accessory containing a breakdown NEF single-shot 300 WinMag with an 18" bbl. The plan is that I shield us with my body and “catch the rounds” while she assembles the NEF. I lay down covering fire with my 23 (Bar-Sto .357 Sig barrel) and she makes the long shots. I will then throw smoke grenades to obscure the area while continuing to lay covering fire. The problem, of course, is when I have to turn my back to run, and then the problem crops up.

Thanks!

Is that from the Mall Ninja?

[ZoneOne]

Is this you?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74HcwFM8js4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74HcwFM8js4

[mcantu]

ICW plates need a soft armor backing to reduce the back-face deformation as well as catch pieces of the bullet that may penetrate. that said, many times tests are done on the plates alone just to see how they perform.

[chardson67]

Thanks Macantu!

And yes I'm not joking about Poiticians wearing this back in the Phiippines, elections are nearing and the Philippines has a history of political violence in the provinces, but still a great country to live in! that is when you take out the policitians.

[Catch22]

The ICW plates we have tested will stop the actual projectile but the BFD would be too big to endure. There are some plates that can be used in both roles - Standalone/ICW but just the threat rating will be diffrent ie. when worn standalone it will rate NIJ III, when with ballistic backing NIJ IV class. Basically if a ceramic face gets penetrated most bullets will retain enough energy to pass both the plate backing (be it glued kevlar or poyethylene) AND the soft armor underneath. That at least is a conclusion from the ballistic test I've been at (plates shot from ranges 15 - 3 meters with FMJ, AP and API ammo).

[chardson67]

The ICW plates we have tested will stop the actual projectile but the BFD would be too big to endure. There are some plates that can be used in both roles - Standalone/ICW but just the threat rating will be diffrent ie. when worn standalone it will rate NIJ III, when with ballistic backing NIJ IV class. Basically if a ceramic face gets penetrated most bullets will retain enough energy to pass both the plate backing (be it glued kevlar or poyethylene) AND the soft armor underneath. That at least is a conclusion from the ballistic test I've been at (plates shot from ranges 15 - 3 meters with FMJ, AP and API ammo).

"if a ceramic face gets penetrated most bullets will retain enough energy to pass both the plate backing"

In what circumstances would a level III (ICW) be penetrated? AP rounds is one, is there a second one?

How bad is the BFD? is it bad enough to fracture a rib?

My level III (ICW) plate on it's certification says the least bfdeformation in milimeters is 8.0 and the worst is 17.5mm in conjunction with a Level IIIA vest (tessted with a 7.62 ball ammo). I think the NIJ standards states that anything beyond 45mm is deadly, if I remember correctly.

So now, I'm almost coming to a conclusion here that a level III (ICW) is fair enough to stop a 7.62 ball ammo,even without wearing a level IIIA vest, I hope i'm correct with this presumption or else i'm dead.

[Andreas]

Thanks Macantu!

And yes I'm not joking about Poiticians wearing this back in the Phiippines, elections are nearing and the Philippines has a history of political violence in the provinces, but still a great country to live in! that is when you take out the policitians.


"if a ceramic face gets penetrated most bullets will retain enough energy to pass both the plate backing"

In what circumstances would a level III (ICW) be penetrated? AP rounds is one, is there a second one?

How bad is the BFD? is it bad enough to fracture a rib?

My level III (ICW) plate on it's certification says the least bfdeformation in milimeters is 8.0 and the worst is 17.5mm in conjunction with a Level IIIA vest (tessted with a 7.62 ball ammo). I think the NIJ standards states that anything beyond 45mm is deadly, if I remember correctly.

So now, I'm almost coming to a conclusion here that a level III (ICW) is fair enough to stop a 7.62 ball ammo,even without wearing a level IIIA vest, I hope i'm correct with this presumption or else i'm dead.

Are you planning to get shot or shoot somebody?
Either way I would suggest you do neither and play some WOW or something..

Cheers
Andreas

[BiZ]

Short answer, you shouldn't ever wear hard armour (plates) without a soft vest.

[Catch22]

BiZ summed it up - it's better safe than sorry - even with standalone plate its better to have a soft ballistic backing because it will help to further reduce the impact trauma. If you don't have an option, or will to use the full vest just go for the plate backers made of Dyneema or Aramides aren't that expensive, and effectively they don't add too much thickness (mine in IIIA are less than 4mm thick).

[oakleaf]

Hi Folks,

I'm just wondering if a Level III ICW Plate (ceramic) (inconjunction with) will stop 5.56 and 7.62 even without a Level IIIA vest? i've not shot it personally with a 5.56 and 7.62, so before I do, i'd like to know if someone has done it already, therefore I won't be wasting my Level III ICW plate.

My thinking is that it will not be penetrated but the indentation and back blast might bruise, break a rib or worst still penetrate? whoah!

Specialised suggestions would be very much appreciated!

Thanks!

only level IV ceramics will stop 5.56mm (and more... it depends on the distance and angle from where you shoot)... those level III plate won't stop more than a 9mm para bullet...

We did some "live action" tests on level III ceramics : P90 goes right through it !!! They stop 9mm in pistol/Mp and carabine.

Level IV plates will stop 5.56 mm and will not penetrate... on the backside of the plate you don't see anything that a bullet has "touched" the front side (anyway you will surely receive a "knock" on your thorax, without the padding effect of the flexible vest. (the same for the 9mm bullet on the level III plate)

Those level 3 plate are for example used in doors of policecars (to take cover ic of gunfight... but one can hope that the bad guys don't have kalash ...) It will only protect you in case of gunfight with handguns... (wich is 95% of the police intervention propability)

[chardson67]

"those level III plate won't stop more than a 9mm para bullet..."

Are you really sure? how old was your level III plate? and do you happen to have pics? you're making me feel uneasy now...

[oakleaf]

OK,

first of all, are you sure that the plate you have is "ceramic" ? I ask this question because you say "level III ceramic plates"... the majority of ceramic gear is always level IV... thats why they use "ceramics" because it keeps 5.56mm out of your body...:)

Now, there are also "plates" that are made level III and they are not made from ceramic-stuff but they are constructed from aramid (or another kevlarish-tissue) and hardered with polyester.
It is the same material as used for helmets (mich, PASGT, schuberth) but there is no ceramic in it !!!!

As the helmets, they are not level IV !!! (you shoot right trough a mich helmet with a 5.56mm, be sure about that !!!... "bulletproof" helmets will only stop 9mm para- or shrapnells) The only helmet that stops 5.56mm is made from titan/molybden (those helmets that often used by German SEK-police units)

How thick is your plate ? if it is about 8mm-10mm it is probably only level III hardered aramid... ceramic plates are minimum 20 mm...

And... why should you be worried ??? I guess your not going to try that out "in real modus ?" Do not ever try this out for fun on a real body...
Did you knew that companies who produce those plates, will never say that all of their new produced plates are 100% bulletproof ?? There's always a small percentage of construction-faillures... even if it is 3 or 4%...

PS : sorry, don't have any pictures of it...

[Seraphim]

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/pubs-sum/223054.htm

This should put a end to this ridiculous thread.

[Catch22]

oakleaf: wherever you take your infos from try to change the source, as you seem severly misguided about ballistics and materials. There are a plenty of NIJ lvl III ceramic plates in the market, many of them are issued by various armies, they are aramide or polyethylene backed sandwich plates.

German SEK helmets are usually titanium Ulbricht's UM95 model, and they are as incapable of stopping 5,56 as aramide helmets - they can take up to 7,62X25mm Tokarev and have a reasonably smaller deformation than their composite counterparts, but no myths or wonders here. Just refer to the manufacturers site.

Typical ceramic NIJ level III plate is about 15mm thick, level IV is about 18mm, Polyethylene III's are about 23mm's.

The only thing I could agree for is that you never can assume V100 protection - there's always a chance for a material failure, be it 1% or just bad luck.

[chardson67]

Thanks guys! now I'm more confident with my level III plate, it is 14mm in thickness and I went back to the manufacturer site and this is what they said:

Our ceramic plates are made from high hardness ceramic (Al2O3) and high soft ballistic material – Aramid fabric (Kevlar or Twaron) by thermo-compression.

Well thank you so much to all, this will now save lives back in the Philippines, I might even save noncorrupt politicians from being killed and start contributing to make a change for a better government.

[BrianT]

I know of a couple MICHs that have stopped 7.62. Hell, I know of m4s that have stopped 7.62 let alone something that was meant to stop bullets like a plate.

[Catch22]

Surely they could - it all depends on the circumstances: distance, angle of impact, quality and type of ammunition. Those helmets BrianT mentioned could well deflect or skid the impacting bullets. In the ballistic test conditions however - when the distance is small (5 meters), angle of impact is fixed at 0 deg and the helmet is mounted onto the "head" - you cant expect it to whitstand a hit from 7,62X39 or 5,56X45 not to mention full power rifle calibers.

[SOG]

What in the hell did I just read?

In a week we will probably see a youTube video of some idiot shooting a second idiot for fun in a vest.

[mcantu]

What in the hell did I just read?

In a week we will probably see a youTube video of some idiot shooting a second idiot for fun in a vest.


i'm sure this has been posted before but...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaS_2l8nGdg