Spain still claiming Gibraltar,Great Britain to give it back?

[Afro-European]

The first visit to Gibraltar by a Spanish minister for more than 300 years provoked protests on both sides of the border today.
Miguel Ángel Moratinos, the Spanish Foreign Minister, met David Miliband, the British Foreign Secretary, and Peter Caruana, Gibraltar’s Chief Minister.
The historic visit did not involve discussions on the thorny issue of sovereignty, which has been bitterly contested by Spain since British troops wrested control of the Rock in 1704. But the mere presence of a Spanish minister in Gibraltar drew protests from both sides.
As Mr Moratinos arrived at the the border he was confronted with about 30 protesters holding placards reading: "For the dignity of Spain, don’t throw away 300 years of strength."
María Dolores de Cospedal, general secretary of the opposition conservative Popular Party, condemned the visit as a “terrible error” which would set a precedent by recognising British sovereignty over the Rock.
Mr Moratinos was escorted across the border by officers from the Spanish Guardia Civil. On the British side, demonstrators flew a small number of Union Jack and Gibraltarian flags.
The Self-Determination for Gibraltar Group had called on the colony’s 28,000-strong population to make a stand during the Spanish minister’s visit.
The three-way talks covered agreements on greater maritime, financial and judicial co-operation between Britain, Spain and Gibraltar. But Mr Moratinos said in an interview with The Times that Spain would never renounce its claim to the colony.
A Foreign and Commonwealth Office spokeswoman said: “Sovereignty was never on the agenda.” Leire Pajin, a spokeswoman for Spain's ruling Socialist Party, said: “Sovereignty was not an issue.”
Mr Moratinos, 57, is haunted by the issue — in his office in the 17th-century Palacio Santa Cruz in Madrid, a painting of Gibraltar looks down at the minister.
“When my British friends come to see me, they enjoy seeing this painting,” he told The Times.
Spain’s Government sought to portray the visit as a way of improving co-operation between the people of Gibraltar and those of their larger neighbour.
Spain has laid claim to the colony for more than 300 years, General Franco closed the border in 1969 in protest at a referendum confirming allegiance to Britain and it was not fully re-opened until 1985.
In 2006, a landmark deal between Britain, Spain and Gibraltar led to three-way talks to resolve a series of long-running issues.
These included payment of pensions to Spaniards who lost their jobs when Franco closed the border in 1969, recognition of Gibraltarian telephone codes by Spain, speeding up traffic at the border and co-operation over the airport.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6722187.ece

[RuneX2]

Great Britain to give it back? Not so along as the people living there says no.

[Panchito12]

First of all, Spain SIGNED over Gibraltar in a Treaty.

Second of all, Spain is full of it because they still have colonies in Africa: Ceuta, Melilla, Canary Islands, and assorted rocks.

Thirdly, the Spanish only recognize the right of self-determination only when it interests them.

Now I know that Spaniards are going to jump all over this and cite all sorts of BS historical records, so DON'T POST IT!! It's going to be like listening to a broken record so please spare us the diatribe.

As long as Spain occupies land in the African continent, they have no argument over Gibraltar.

UK wins!!!

p.s. And I tell this to my Spanish relatives every fall when I visit them.

[Arfah]

For a moment, I looked at this thread and thought I was suffering from deja vu...

Then I realised that I have been involved in Gibraltar threads before :-)

It's just three guys having a chat about basic type stuff.
Besides, the tunnels inside the rock go all the way to the u.k under the atlantic and along the english channel terminating at Folkestone.

[MARINO]

Ok we can discuss about Ceuta and Melilla Status. But WTF the Carary Islands Colonnies you'r not very intelligent dude.
BTW who are you to told to answer or not.
BTW i suggest you to read the Utrecht Treaty. Article X wich mentions all the stuff about Gibraltar and you'll see the british don't respect it. I don't give a **** about Gibraltar but respect your word.

[Dercius]

Great Britain to give it back? Not so along as the people living there says no.

Hong Kong comes to my mind :roll:

[PeterRJG]

Hong Kong comes to my mind :roll:

Hong Kong was leased. The Chinese re-occupied HK when the lease expired. Entirely different situation.

[Dercius]

Hong Kong was leased. The Chinese re-occupied HK when the lease expired. Entirely different situation.

Yeah, I know p-)
Utrecht treaty also says lots of stuff that UK has ignored, and specifically says that the moment UK decides to leave Gibraltar, Spain has the first option on it, so no room for independence.

[Arfah]

Yeah, I know p-)
Utrecht treaty also says lots of stuff that UK has ignored, and specifically says that the moment UK decides to leave Gibraltar, Spain has the first option on it, so no room for independence.

Doesn't the Utrecht treaty also state that Menorca is British too ?

Doh ! There goes that deva vu feeling again. :roll:

[Dercius]

Doesn't the Utrecht treaty also state that Menorca is British too ?

Doh ! There goes that deva vu feeling again. :roll:

Minorca ceded back to Spain in The Treaty of Amiens 1802

IMO Spaniards couldnt care less about Gibraltar staying as a British colony, but they dont want to be fooled by UK granting it independence against the original treaty. And I dont see anyone wanting to open the pandora box of secessions within the EU states.

So Gibraltar should remain a UK colony

[Alpheus]

Yeah, I know p-)
Utrecht treaty also says lots of stuff that UK has ignored, and specifically says that the moment UK decides to leave Gibraltar, Spain has the first option on it, so no room for independence.


ARTICLE X The Catholic King does hereby, for himself, his heirs and successors, yield to the Crown of Great Britain the full and entire propriety of the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging; and he gives up the said propriety to be held and enjoyed absolutely with all manner of right for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever.
Ok, Gibraltar belongs to the Brits now.

But that abuses and frauds may be avoided by importing any kind of goods, the Catholic King wills, and takes it to be understood, that the above-named propriety be yielded to Great Britain without any territorial jurisdiction and without any open communication by land with the country round about. Yet whereas the communication by sea with the coast of Spain may not at all times be safe or open, and thereby it may happen that the garrison and other inhabitants of Gibraltar may be brought to great straits; and as it is the intention of the Catholic King, only that fraudulent importations of goods should, as is above said, be hindered by an inland communications. it is therefore provided that in such cases it may be lawful to purchase, for ready money, in the neighbouring territories of Spain, provisions and other things necessary for the use of the garrison, the inhabitants, and the ships which lie in the harbour. But if any goods be found imported by Gibraltar, either by way of barter for purchasing provisions, or under any other pretence, the same shall be confiscated, and complaint being made thereof, those persons who have acted contrary to the faith of this treaty, shall be severely punished.
Ok, so no trade by land between Gibraltar and Spain except under emergencies/wartime. Since 22.7% of exports and 23.4% of imports are to/from Spain, this is irrelevant.

And Her Britannic Majesty, at the request of the Catholic King, does consent and agree, that no leave shall be given under any pretence whatsoever, either to Jews or Moors, to reside or have their dwellings in the said town of Gibraltar; and that no refuge or shelter shall be allowed to any Moorish ships of war in the harbour of the said town, whereby the communication between Spain and Ceuta may be obstructed, or the coasts of Spain be infested by the excursions of the Moors. But whereas treaties of friendship and a liberty and intercourse of commerce are between the British and certain territories situated on the coast of Africa, it is always to be understood, that the British subjects cannot refuse the Moors and their ships entry into the port of Gibraltar purely upon the account of merchandising.
Yes, those damn Juice and Moors.

Her Majesty the Queen of Great Britain does further promise, that the free exercise of their religion shall be indulged to the Roman Catholic inhabitants of the aforesaid town. And in case it shall hereafter seem meet to the Crown of Great Britain to grant , sell or by any means to alienate therefrom the propriety of the said town of Gibraltar, it is hereby agreed and concluded that the preference of having the sale shall always be given to the Crown of Spain before any others.
Ok, so Spain gets first dibs if Britain gives up.

So do tell, what part of this is the UK so blatantly ignoring? The Jews?

[Macaca sylvanus]

I don't give a **** about Gibraltar

Best thing I've ever heard from a Spaniard. Really, quite refreshing. Now go and convince your other 46,661,949 countrymen to leave us the **** alone.

[CPL Trevoga]

First of all, Spain SIGNED over Gibraltar in a Treaty.

Second of all, Spain is full of it because they still have colonies in Africa: Ceuta, Melilla, Canary Islands, and assorted rocks.

Thirdly, the Spanish only recognize the right of self-determination only when it interests them.

Now I know that Spaniards are going to jump all over this and cite all sorts of BS historical records, so DON'T POST IT!! It's going to be like listening to a broken record so please spare us the diatribe.

As long as Spain occupies land in the African continent, they have no argument over Gibraltar.

UK wins!!!

p.s. And I tell this to my Spanish relatives every fall when I visit them.

There is a word for people like you in Spanish language: Coconut.

[Panchito12]

Ok we can discuss about Ceuta and Melilla Status. But WTF the Carary Islands Colonnies you'r not very intelligent dude.
BTW who are you to told to answer or not.
BTW i suggest you to read the Utrecht Treaty. Article X wich mentions all the stuff about Gibraltar and you'll see the british don't respect it. I don't give a **** about Gibraltar but respect your word.


Listen well soldadito de segunda the Canary Islands are classified as part of the African Continent. What, do you think they belong to the European continent?

Leave Africa and the Brits will leave the Iberian Peninsula.

p.s. Try to kick us out of Rota....we'll happily move down the straits to Gibraltar.

[Panchito12]

There is a word for people like you in Spanish language: Coconut.

If you're going to attempt to passs yourself off as someone who speaks the Castilian language, then at least get the translation correct. The word is: COCO

[muttbutt]

Jebus it's a fecking rock populated (no offence) by some odd folk.

[Panchito12]

Jebus it's a fecking rock populated (no offence) by some odd folk.

Don't forget the damn monkeys, man! The monkeys!!!rofl

[Lazy Lob]

Considering that Spain is fragmenting or has fragmented into fully autonomous regions as their PM strikes deal after deal with separatists why in the name of a freakin rolling doughnut would they now want Gib?

Spain is like the Python dead parrot sketch. Spain is no more, these regions don’t even want to be referred to as Spain.

[toki]

Listen well soldadito de segunda the Canary Islands are classified as part of the African Continent. What, do you think they belong to the European continent?

What has geography to do with it? They're an autonomous part of Spain, but part of the EU themselves. Even if they would break from Spain, they wouldn't be Africa politically.

Btw they're part of the Spanish football federation. :) Club Deportivo Tenerife anyone?

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

England will give The Rock back if France gives England.......well France back.

[Afro-European]

Listen well soldadito de segunda the Canary Islands are classified as part of the African Continent. What, do you think they belong to the European continent?

Leave Africa and the Brits will leave the Iberian Peninsula.

p.s. Try to kick us out of Rota....we'll happily move down the straits to Gibraltar.
Do you really think that if Spain leaves Ceuta and Melilla the UK 'll leave Gibraltar? I don't see any connection here.

[PeterRJG]

Do you really think that if Spain leaves Ceuta and Melilla the UK 'll leave Gibraltar? I don't see any connection here.

Except that it's hypocritical to consider one without the other.

[miguelencanarias]

This is one of those topics where people from two different sides will repeat the same arguments over and over again until their ears bleed, then pass the subject to the next generation, who then will do exactly the same, while nothing changes.

Guys, let it go. This topic is a road to nowhere. It will end up with either one part insulting the other (I see it is already happening) or everybody getting bored to death.

Most Spaniards don't care about Gibraltar except when somebody raises the subject to engage in a fruitless argument, only to forget about it again as soon as the heat cools off.

Frankly, we have more pressing concerns, and so do you.

Speaking of which, leave us Canarians alone, we have more than enough with the current economic crisis to begin hearing somebody say we should be "given back to Africa" (Africa? is that a country now?). Anyway, we won't get sucked into that argument, thank you very much.

[Sada]

Spain it´s an A-F-R-I-C-A-N-E-U-R-O-P-E-A-N country, I said it, the tabooh it´s broken: Geographically and even culturally, although unbalanced, we belong to two continents. Ceuta, actually the Rif´s coast, always has been part of Spain: When Hispania only were roman provinces, the northern tip of African belonged to the southern province of Spain, when Spain was an independent kingdom ruled by visigoths it remained the same, in fact the muslim invasion began when the visigoth gobernor of Ceuta opened the doors of iberian peninsula to muslims; when the Cordoba califate from 711 to 1000 a.C it remained being a territory administrativeley united to peninsula, when the small moors kingdoms of taifas it was the same and so on. And when those invaders from middle east were expelled from Spain it was only question of time that Spain controlled those cities, cities that in fact were built by spanish. It was a question of life or death for Spain, the same that Gibraltar, because after 1492 Spain was besieged by sea without a rest by turks and berbers pirates until the XVIII.
You all my dear foreigners don´t mess with things you know a dime about it and look for fun at your home.
Ceuta and Melilla it´s not the same that the rocks of Alhucemas and others, if the last ones are still owned by Spain it´s agaisnt our will. I don´t clear this point, it´s just your obligation to inform yourselves before opening the mouth, less internet and more learning in written documents. Ah...and Canarias, they "belong" to Africa...yes, but which africans? I wonder if some of the millions and millions of european tourists that travell to those islands are members of this forum, because it seems that not. Do La Laguna or Las Palmas resemble to Marrocq? or to Dakar?
About Gibraltar, there´s the Treaty of Utrech, it´s vigent of course, the same that american counstitution: There´s no place for other foreign power to ocupy that land nor place for other power if GB leaves the rock than Spain, nor a remote chance than an european institution say a word over the sovereignity of that rock . It´s said white over black in the document. No place for a fantasy pirate state in Gibraltar nor torted intentions by the british side of presenting the actual situation as if Spain don´t respect the will of other peoples: It´s GB the one colonizing spanish territory and it was GB that expelled for ever the gibraltarians of the rock, in fact the spanish town of San Roque the Gibraltar was founded by them. Fact is that Spain can live without Gibraltar although it causes some problems to us year after(black money, smuggling, washing money from drug trafficants, old ships not admitted in other ports wrecking in the spanish bay when sailing to Gibraltar and a long etc), but it´s a fact that Gibraltar can´t live without Spain with the same standards of living.
So I don´t understand that low lifes jump always like springs when the issue of Gibraltar appeared here. Yesterday it didn´t happeng something extraordinary to provocate the usual jingoism of british and american associates: Spain don´t renounce to our legal rights about Gibraltar sovereignity and GB don´t want to cede it by now, nothing new. Yesterday they talked about other things.

Panchito12 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=66531)[/U]]p.s. And I tell this to my Spanish relatives every fall when I visit them.
What kind of payaso are you? If your relatives are the normal decent people I use to see in the streets around here, they´d kick you back to your country with their sole shoes stamped in your ass, nobody can talk like you and others face to face. Respect if you want to be respected first of all. Only and imbecile like you can put together the words "colonies" and "canaries", a territory with universities older than any european colony in USA. And my advise is you as an american keep a correct behaviour when talking about your bases here, it´s you that are in debt with us, not the reverse.

[Sada]

This is one of those topics where people from two different sides will repeat the same arguments over and over again until their ears bleed, then pass the subject to the next generation, who then does exactly the same, while nothing changes.

Guys, let it go. This topic is a road to nowhere. It will end up with either one part insulting the other (I see it is already happening) or everybody getting bored to death.

Most Spaniards don't care about Gibraltar except when somebody raises the subject to engage in a fruitless argument, only to forget about it again as soon as the heat cools off.

Frankly, we have more pressing concerns, and so do you.

Speaking of which, leave us Canarians alone, we have more than enough with the current economic crisis to begin hearing somebody say we should be "given back to Africa" (Africa? is that a country now?). Anyway, we won't get sucked into that argument, thank you very much.
Well Miguelencanarias, basically I agree with you but it´s with topics like this that I question if there´s any worht in given some time to apport datas to a fruitful discussion, basically I feel like giving daisies to porks(a spanish saying). Still I don´t know many people here, but I knowing some names and it´s always the same nonsenses and behavioural incoherences. I´ve read a thread about Gibraltar some time ago and I didn´t write anything, some jerk even posted a photo of Madrid nuked or something like this, well, this is internet, but fact is that I´d punched that man if in front of me. This is a forum about politics, not about hooliganism. And I repeat: Yesterday it didn´t happen anything that modified in someway the status of Gibraltar.

[Soldat_Américain]

And my advise is you as an american keep a correct behaviour when talking about your bases here, it´s you that are in debt with us, not the reverse.
Hey now those small bases contribute to Spain quite a lot...the Seabees do a lot of building as far as public works is concerned.

[MARINO]

Listen well soldadito de segunda the Canary Islands are classified as part of the African Continent. What, do you think they belong to the European continent?

Leave Africa and the Brits will leave the Iberian Peninsula.

p.s. Try to kick us out of Rota....we'll happily move down the straits to Gibraltar.

That's like saying "Hawaii is a Colonie". Of course they're not in Europe... but they are as Spanish as Albacete. It's the same with Hawaii as American as Kansas
Do you read all the crap you write. BTW you're talking to an officer.

In the other hand the parts that UK is not respecting are: about territorial waters... and ground traffic with the peninsula( ok it's our fault) and they built their airport in the neutral zone during our civil war.

[tercio67]

Hey now those small bases contribute to Spain quite a lot...the Seabees do a lot of building as far as public works is concerned.

The only contribution to public works by the Seabees in Spain is confined to (the US part of) ROTA.
European regulations stipulate that contracts for public works with a worth over €50000 are granted after an open competition and may not be granted outright.

[Macaca sylvanus]

This is one of those topics where people from two different sides will repeat the same arguments over and over again until their ears bleed, then pass the subject to the next generation, who then does exactly the same, while nothing changes.

Guys, let it go. This topic is a road to nowhere. It will end up with either one part insulting the other (I see it is already happening) or everybody getting bored to death.

Most Spaniards don't care about Gibraltar except when somebody raises the subject to engage in a fruitless argument, only to forget about it again as soon as the heat cools off.

Frankly, we have more pressing concerns, and so do you.

Good post Miguel, If only more people were as level headed as you our territories wouldnt be in this stupid standoff...saludos y gracias


In the other hand the parts that UK is not respecting are: about territorial waters... and ground traffic with the peninsula( ok it's our fault) and they built their airport in the neutral zone during our civil war.

On Territorial waters dispute, see my post on another thread:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=4100208&postcount=42

The airfield started to be built as an emergency stop off for the Royal Navy FAA in 1939 but really went into use in 1942, dont see what this has to do with the Spanish Civil War. The isthmus, that is, the part of Gibraltar physically connected to Spain is also a separate bone of contention with Spanish authorities. The airport lies here. Spain actually broke the conditions of the Treaty of Utrecht by attacking Gibraltar in 1727, the attack failed and as a result of this military action the British Lines were extended towards Spain, and neutral ground became two cannon shots distance between British and Spanish guns after this to prevent further attacks.

[Fat Lazy American]

It's the same with Hawaii as American as Kansas


No, nothing is as American as Kansas. We consider Nebraska to be suspiciously close to Canada.

[Derbedeu]

Considering that Spain is fragmenting or has fragmented into fully autonomous regions as their PM strikes deal after deal with separatists why in the name of a freakin rolling doughnut would they now want Gib?

Spain is like the Python dead parrot sketch. Spain is no more, these regions don’t even want to be referred to as Spain.

The exact same can be said for Great Britain.

FREE SCOTLAND!!!!


p-)

[Connaught Ranger]

If they get the rock, next they will want Holland back p-)

[Panchito12]

If they get the rock, next they will want Holland back p-)


In the words of Goldmember: Freaky-Deaky Dutch

[miguelencanarias]

If they get the rock, next they will want Holland back p-)
Holland not really. But Cuba and Puerto Rico would be nice. Nice beaches. And the girls look good.

Florida, you can keep...

[tattooman]

A thing is sure, Gibraltar never be independent though practically it is a fact. Spain need to press to the EU for review the whole economy of Gibraltar.

And our Guardia Civil need to be more active in this waters.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

The UK saved France from Bonaparte and this the thanks we get..........the cheak

[tattooman]

Melilla:

Melilla was a Phoenician (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia) and later Punic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punic) establishment under the name of Rusadir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusadir). Later it became a part of the Roman province of Mauretania Tingitana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauretania_Tingitana). As centuries passed, it went through Vandal, Byzantine and Hispano-Visigothic hands. Melilla was part of the Kingdom of Fez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Fez) when Juan Alonso Pérez de Guzmán (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Juan_Alonso_P%C3%A9rez_de_Guzm%C3%A1n&action=edit&redlink=1), known as Guzmán el Bueno, the 3rd Duke of Medina Sidonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Medina_Sidonia) conquered it in 1497, a few years before (1492) Castile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Castile) had taken control of the Nasrid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasrid) Kingdom of Granada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Granada), the last remnant of Al-Andalus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus).

Ceuta:

Ceuta's strategic location has made it the crucial waypoint of many cultures' trade and military ventures — beginning with the Carthaginians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage) in the 5th century BC, who called the city Abyla. It was not until the Romans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire) took control in about A.D. 42 that the port city (then named Septem) assumed an almost exclusive military purpose. Approximately 400 years later, the Vandals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandal) ousted the Romans from control, and later it fell to the Visigoths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigoths) of Hispania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispania) and the Byzantines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceuta#cite_note-0)

In 1415, Ceuta was occupied by the Portuguese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal) during the reign of John I of Portugal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_I_of_Portugal). (Battle of Ceuta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ceuta))
After the king of Spain became the king of Portugal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_for_the_throne_of_Portugal) in 1580, the majority of the population of Ceuta became of Spanish origin. This went to the extent of Ceuta being the only city of the Portuguese Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Empire) that sided with Spain when Portugal regained its independence in 1640 and war broke out between the two countries.
The formal allegiance of Ceuta to Spain was recognized by the Treaty of Lisbon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon_%281668%29) by which, on January 1, 1668, King Afonso VI of Portugal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afonso_VI_of_Portugal) formally ceded Ceuta to Carlos II of Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_II_of_Spain). However, the originally Portuguese flag and coat of arms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms) of Ceuta remained unchanged and modern day Ceuta flag features the configuration of the Portuguese shield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Portugal#Portuguese_shield). The flag's background is also the same as that of the flag of Lisbon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisbon).


Canarias:
Castilian conquest

There are claims that the Portuguese had discovered the Canaries as early as 1336, though there appears to be little evidence for this.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Islands#cite_note-8) In 1402, the Castilian conquest of the islands began, with the expedition of Jean de Béthencourt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_de_B%C3%A9thencourt) and Gadifer de la Salle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadifer_de_la_Salle), nobles and vassals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vassal) of Henry III of Castile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_III_of_Castile), to the island of Lanzarote. From there, they conquered Fuerteventura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuerteventura) and El Hierro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Hierro). Béthencourt received the title King of the Canary Islands, but still recognized King Henry III as his overlord.
Béthencourt also established a base on the island of La Gomera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Gomera), but it would be many years before the island was truly conquered. The natives of La Gomera, and of Gran Canaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gran_Canaria), Tenerife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife), and La Palma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Palma), resisted the Castilian invaders for almost a century. In 1448 Maciot de Béthencourt (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Maciot_de_B%C3%A9thencourt&action=edit&redlink=1) sold the lordship of Lanzarote to Portugal's Prince Henry the Navigator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_the_Navigator), an action that was not accepted by the natives nor by the Castilians. A crisis swelled to a revolt which lasted until 1459 with the final expulsion of the Portuguese. Finally, in 1479, Portugal recognised Castilian control of the Canary Islands in the Treaty of Alcaçovas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Alca%C3%A7ovas).
The Castilians continued to dominate the islands, but due to the topography and the resistance of the native Guanches, complete pacification was not achieved until 1495, when Tenerife and La Palma were finally subdued by Alonso Fernández de Lugo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alonso_Fern%C3%A1ndez_de_Lugo). After that, the Canaries were incorporated into the Kingdom of Castile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Castile).


No one of these territories is a colony.

But the Damned Anglo Americas have:


EEUU:

Puerto Rico
Guam
USA Samoa
Wake
CSA p-)

UK:

Scotland
Wales
Ulster
Malvinas (Falkland)
British overseas territories

Conclusion:

Shut your mouth!

[Connaught Ranger]

Holland not really. But Cuba and Puerto Rico would be nice. Nice beaches. And the girls look good.

Florida, you can keep...

AIDS is rampant in CUBA!:|

[Panchito12]

The Castilians continued to dominate the islands, but due to the topography and the resistance of the native Guanches, complete pacification was not achieved until 1495,

No one of these territories is a colony.




Support the Native Guanche Liberation Movement!!

Down with the Castilian colonialists-monarchist pigs!!!

Help bring freedom to the oppresed islands of Benahoare, Hero, Tamarán, Tytherogakaet, Achinech, Maxorata, and Gomera!!

BASES FUERA!! CASTELLANOS OUT!!!

p.s. And independence for Catalunya & Euskerra.

[miguelencanarias]

AIDS is rampant in CUBA!:|...and everything else is rampant in Florida...

[oldsoak]

Gibraltar is not going to be solved by anyone here. The Spanish vs British and Gibraltan pov's cannot be reconciled, period. An irresistible force and an immovable object. It is simply a pointless topic.

[Blue_0]

As long as the people that live in Gibraltar want to be part of Britain, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

-- Bluelight

[Panchito12]

Gibraltar is not going to be solved by anyone here. The Spanish vs British and Gibraltan pov's cannot be reconciled, period. An irresistible force and an immovable object. It is simply a pointless topic.

But we can at least begin to end Spanish colonialism of the Canary Islands!

[oldsoak]

Oooh, dunno. I think if they let us go over Gibraltar, we should at least let 'em go over Canaries and North African colonies.

[Lazy Lob]

Melilla: knock yourself out sunshine.....

........


But the Damned Anglo Americas have:



UK:


ENGLAND?
Scotland
Wales
Ulster
Malvinas (Falkland)
British overseas territories

Conclusion:

Shut your mouth!


Howsabout you shut yours?



The exact same can be said for Great Britain.

FREE SCOTLAND!!!!


p-)

Free ENGLAND from them dodgy Nu Labour Scottish PMs. I could say that, but I won't. p-)

[Lancero]

Ceuta, actually the Rif´s coast, always has been part of Spain: When Hispania only were roman provinces, the northern tip of African belonged to the southern province of Spain, when Spain was an independent kingdom ruled by visigoths it remained the same, in fact the muslim invasion began when the visigoth gobernor of Ceuta opened the doors of iberian peninsula to muslims; when the Cordoba califate from 711 to 1000 a.C it remained being a territory administrativeley united to peninsula, when the small moors kingdoms of taifas it was the same and so on. And when those invaders from middle east were expelled from Spain it was only question of time that Spain controlled those cities, cities that in fact were built by spanish. It was a question of life or death for Spain, the same that Gibraltar, because after 1492 Spain was besieged by sea without a rest by turks and berbers pirates until the XVIII.
You all my dear foreigners don´t mess with things you know a dime about it and look for fun at your home. I don´t clear this point, it´s just your obligation to inform yourselves before opening the mouth, less internet and more learning in written documents. (...)

Good advice. You should use it yourself.

[AkerWalker]

This is one of those topics where people from two different sides will repeat the same arguments over and over again until their ears bleed, then pass the subject to the next generation, who then will do exactly the same, while nothing changes.

Guys, let it go. This topic is a road to nowhere. It will end up with either one part insulting the other (I see it is already happening) or everybody getting bored to death.

Most Spaniards don't care about Gibraltar except when somebody raises the subject to engage in a fruitless argument, only to forget about it again as soon as the heat cools off.

Frankly, we have more pressing concerns, and so do you.

Speaking of which, leave us Canarians alone, we have more than enough with the current economic crisis to begin hearing somebody say we should be "given back to Africa" (Africa? is that a country now?). Anyway, we won't get sucked into that argument, thank you very much.

Quoted for wisdom and prophetic

[Mastermind]

Ah. But, what happens if the Spaniards take the Rock back? Prudential Insurance has to close up shop....and that would just be too hard to take.

[zad]

AIDS is rampant in CUBA!:|


Prevalence of AIDS in Cuba

Adults aged 15 to 49 prevalence rate: 0.1%
http://www.unaids.org/en/countryresponses/countries/cuba.asp

Prevalence of AIDS in Ireland

Adults aged 15 to 49 prevalence rate: 0.2%
http://www.unaids.org/en/CountryResponses/Countries/ireland.asp

Prevalence of AIDS in USA

Adults aged 15 to 49 prevalence rate: 0.6% [/URL]
[URL]http://www.unaids.org/en/CountryResponses/Countries/united_states_of_america.asp (http://www.unaids.org/en/CountryResponses/Countries/united_states_of_america.asp)

So barebacking in Cuba is twice safer than to do it in Ireland. p-)

[danielc]

Spain will never get back Gibraltar until they stop the occupation of Olivenza and return it to Portugal.

More about it here:

International Dispute of Olivenza:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2382/brevhisi.htm

[Connaught Ranger]

Off Topic.

So barebacking in Cuba is twice safer than to do it in Ireland. p-)

I dispute the Cuba figures given p-)

We stick to sheep lad, far safer, bare-backing anywhere is risky.

[Panchito12]

We stick to sheep lad, far safer, bare-backing anywhere is risky.

So do the Castilians.

[Panchito12]

Spain will never get back Gibraltar until they stop the occupation of Olivenza and return it to Portugal.

More about it here:

International Dispute of Olivenza:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2382/brevhisi.htm

Well don't go by Salamanca. They think that since the river that flows by the city, the Tormes, ends up in the Duero, and that one flows into the ocean in Portugal, then Portugal ought to belong to Salamanca. I'm serious. They sing about it in the student bars.