Japanese students moved by reconciliation trip

[Jeremiah]

Japanese students at a junior high school near Hiroshima are studying and reacting to a Tacoma group's upcoming trip to Japan seeking forgiveness for the U.S. atomic bombing of their city 64 years ago.

Tacoma-area native Marc Milsten is having students in one of his English classes study an article that appeared in The News Tribune about the trip. He wants the teens to understand the viewpoints of Americans.

Some of the ninth-grade Japanese students said they were moved and even surprised Americans would travel to Japan for this purpose. Some students also acknowledged their country's responsibility and one student said Japan should apologize first because it started the war.

The group of 138 ninth-graders at Ohno Higashi Junior High School is studying about peace and the atomic bombing of Hiroshima.

Milsten, 30, is a graduate of Tacoma Baptist High School and Pacific Lutheran University. He has lived in the Hiroshima area and taught English to Japanese students for nearly four years.

Sixteen people, most from the Tacoma area, will travel to Japan later this month to acknowledge and ask forgiveness for the destruction caused by the U.S. atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945. The interfaith group will be in Hiroshima on Aug. 6 and Nagasaki on Aug. 9 to attend anniversary ceremonies remembering the attacks. The group calls the trip "Journey of Repentance".

Milsten said his school's head English teacher wants to meet with the Tacoma group in Hiroshima to talk about the school's peace education program. Milsten and the Rev. Bill Bichsel, a leader of the Tacoma group, exchanged e-mails. Bichsel replied that the Tacoma group would like to arrange a meeting with the teachers and students in Japan.

Milsten said in an e-mail the students at the public school wrote "about their thoughts and impressions in Japanese so that they could fully express everything they wanted to say." Their responses were then translated into English.

Here's a few of them:

"Reading this article, I knew that it was not only Japanese people that think and worry deeply about the atomic bomb. I was also very surprised to know that some American people will come all the way to Japan to ask forgiveness. I think that action is precious, because people tend to justify their own country. Japan should also take action for the bad things Japan did to America."

Tomoka, age 15

"I was moved that those who will come to Japan have nothing to do with the bombings themselves, but they will apologize."Keiko, age 15

"I think those people in Tacoma are wonderful and modest because they will visit Japan to ask forgiveness although it was Japan that started the war. Japan should visit your country and apologize first. In any war, both countries have to be responsible for the results. I think this visit will be a good chance to forgive each other and make a better relationship."

Monami, age 15

"I was moved to learn about the people visiting Japan to ask forgiveness. They are very gentle and kind. I can imagine it will be a brave act to meet the Japanese people who suffered and ask forgiveness. We appreciate that there are people in America who try to think of Japan and Japanese people long after the war is over."

Yukiko, age 15


http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/817036.html


These American kids have an idiot, coward, and traitor for a teacher.

[gaijinsamurai]

I don't think we Americans have anything to ask foregiveness for.

I'm glad to see the sudents are able to visit Japan and make some connections, and the dialogue is good, but the premise that we did something evil (as terrible as the bombings were), when the war was forced upon us, is utter bull$h!t.

[Elbs]

I don't think we Americans have anything to ask foregiveness for.

I'm glad to see the sudents are able to visit Japan and make some connections, and the dialogue is good, but the premise that we did something evil (as terrible as the bombings were), when the war was forced upon us, is utter bull$h!t.

x2 it was Japanese imperialism that pillaged China and most of Asia, causing untold suffering. The bombs were the quickest way to end the war, and end it they did.

[Kilgor]

The more humane thing would have been B29 fire-bombings, a ground invasion, and prolonged misery of the Japanese people :roll:

[gaijinsamurai]

....and by the way, I gotta add that during my time in Japan (2002-2007) I never had experiences with Japanese thinking they were "victims" in WWII. They pretty much all were quick to say they started the war, and suffered because of the policies of Tojo, the ultra-nationalists, and militarists, not because of the US.

But maybe people in Hiroshima (and Nagasaki) are different, because of their experiences.

[T3ngu]

I don't think we Americans have anything to ask foregiveness for.


x2 it was Japanese imperialism that pillaged China and most of Asia, causing untold suffering. The bombs were the quickest way to end the war, and end it they did.

I don't recall the allies (in particular the United States) being the intial aggressor, nor do i recall the Japanese being particularly humane in a number of their campaigns in the pacific.

Good intent by this group is not obviously backed up by any reasonable study of how the war went.

[Solvent]

I the premise that we did something evil (as terrible as the bombings were), when the war was forced upon us, is utter bull$h!t.

x2, American did good thing to the world. Japanese really need to look back at their history to understand what caused the bombing and try hard to avoid it happen again. Not just acting like innocent victims.

[gaijinsamurai]

^ Solvent, I think that if you'll look beyond Chinese Government sources of info, you'll find that the vast majority of Japanese do indeed regret what happened, and are reluctant for their government to ever become involved in wars again. Like I wrote in an ealier post in this thread, it has not been my experience, for what it's worth, that the Japanese "play the victims". Sure, those who lost family members mourn their loved ones, but that's different...

[HollywoodMarine]

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb215/Edwin011/BataanDeathMarch-1.jpg
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff170/nmarino99/beheading.jpg
http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss322/EALC316/beheading.jpg

Appologize!? Hell no! Why would we?

[Kadrun]

.......... clowns????? :O

[dttk0009]

So many people in this thread missing the point. Anything to not damage that precious ego, eh?

[Solvent]

^ Solvent, I think that if you'll look beyond Chinese Government sources of info, you'll find that the vast majority of Japanese do indeed regret what happened, and are reluctant for their government to ever become involved in wars again. Like I wrote in an ealier post in this thread, it has not been my experience, for what it's worth, that the Japanese "play the victims". Sure, those who lost family members mourn their loved ones, but that's different...

I do read the information from other sources. There are peace-loving Japanese for sure. But I also experienced many extreme right-wing Japanese, they are racists and very hostile. The mixed feeling really can't let me draw the conclusion that the regretful is their general attitude. But no matter, I do believe Japanese is not going to do it again or the consequence will be severe.

[Elbs]

So many people in this thread missing the point. Anything to not damage that precious ego, eh?

Would you please point out what it is we're missing? Why should the United States apologize for dropping the bombs which ended the most destructive war in history, which was started by Japanese militarism and fascism?

[AroundTheCorner]

Appologize!? Hell no! Why would we?

That's a very good question.

[dttk0009]

Would you please point out what it is we're missing? Why should the United States apologize for dropping the bombs which ended the most destructive war in history, which was started by Japanese militarism and fascism?
Because dropping the bomb in itself was destructive, killing thousands of women and children, not to mention affecting thousands of others born with mutations and sickness. If an apology of an American of this generation eases the suffering and gives solace to people who are still affected by the fallout I don't see the problem with it. Obviously, some people do.

[gaijinsamurai]

I do read the information from other sources. There are peace-loving Japanese for sure. But I also experienced many extreme right-wing Japanese, they are racists and very hostile. The mixed feeling really can't let me draw the conclusion that the regretful is their general attitude. But no matter, I do believe Japanese is not going to do it again or the consequence will be severe.

I don't think Chinese, Koreans, or Japan's other neighbors in Asia have to worry. However, i wish the current Japanese Prime Minister, Taro Aso, were more interested in reconciliation between Japan and their WWII victims, rather than acting arrogant and appeasing the small, right-wing minority. Hopefully, his days in power will be numbered....

[T3ngu]

Because dropping the bomb in itself was destructive, killing thousands of women and children, not to mention affecting thousands of others born with mutations and sickness. If an apology of an American of this generation eases the suffering and gives solace to people who are still affected by the fallout I don't see the problem with it. Obviously, some people do.
So what, they should not have dropped the bomb, and let the war run out with hundreds of thousands of casualties on both sides, including civilians from a protracted ground war? Irrespective of the outcome, the protracted ground war was, IMO, far worse in terms of casualties.

I don't see the Japanese bending over to give apologies to the comfort women, POWs or others such as the Javanese (i.e. from Java) who were subjugated by the Japanese war machine.

It was what had to be done, the greatest good for the greatest number. Yes it had implications, as would have any other form of ending the war.

[Elbs]

Because dropping the bomb in itself was destructive, killing thousands of women and children, not to mention affecting thousands of others born with mutations and sickness. If an apology of an American of this generation eases the suffering and gives solace to people who are still affected by the fallout I don't see the problem with it. Obviously, some people do.

Let me guess.

Murdering millions of Chinese, Filipinos, Koreans, Vietnamese, Indonesians, etc was not destructive?

Testing chemical weapons on bound captives, or performing medical experiments on live victims was not destructive? I'm sure Unit 731 was sh*tting butterflies and promoting world peace when it tested biological weapons on prisoners of war.

What about beheading prisoners of war? Was that not destructive?

Perhaps Japan should first own up to the fact that its fascist leaders bent on imperialism began the most destructive conflict on earth, and waged indiscriminate war throughout Asia.

They that sow the wind better be ready to reap the whirlwind.

[dttk0009]

So what, they should not have dropped the bomb, and let the war run out with hundreds of thousands of casualties on both sides, including civilians from a protracted ground war? Irrespective of the outcome, the protracted ground was IMO would have been far worse in terms of casualties.

I don't see the Japanese bending over to give appologies to the comfort women, POWs or others such as the Javanese (i.e. from Java) who were subjugated by the Japanese war machine.
Coulda, shoulda, woulda. I don't see the harm in an apology to innocent people who had nothing to do with the war and were horribly affected by it, that's pretty much it. I understand that current generation Americans have no connection to the actions of people from 60 years ago, but it's still a nice gesture.

[T3ngu]

Coulda, shoulda, woulda. I don't see the harm in an apology to innocent people who had nothing to do with the war and were horribly affected by it, that's pretty much it. I understand that current generation Americans have no connection to the actions of people from 60 years ago, but it's still a nice gesture.

Nice gesture, yes, required..., no. I acknowledge your points though.

[Elbs]

Like gaijinsamurai said earlier, it is good for there to be communication and reconciliation between our peoples, but to brand the bombings as evil and unjustified while turning a blind eye to the incredible cruelty and devastation of Japan's war is complete bullsh*t.

[Solvent]

Because dropping the bomb in itself was destructive, killing thousands of women and children, not to mention affecting thousands of others born with mutations and sickness. If an apology of an American of this generation eases the suffering and gives solace to people who are still affected by the fallout I don't see the problem with it. Obviously, some people do.

I think you do understand without the bombs, the Japanese was gonna to fight to the end. How many people would die? How much more blood was going to shed? The bombs actually saved millions of lives. I assume you know before the A bomb, the long-time regular bombing already took away million people's lives.

[dttk0009]

Let me guess.

Murdering millions of Chinese, Filipinos, Koreans, Vietnamese, Indonesians, etc was not destructive?

Testing chemical weapons on bound captives, or performing medical experiments on live victims was not destructive? I'm sure Unit 731 was sh*tting butterflies and promoting world peace when it tested biological weapons on prisoners of war.

What about beheading prisoners of war? Was that not destructive?

Perhaps Japan should first own up to the fact that its fascist leaders bent on imperialism began the most destructive conflict on earth, and waged indiscriminate war throughout Asia.

They that sow the wind better be ready to reap the whirlwind.

You believe generations disconnected from the actual events and atrocities should be held accountable for the actions of their forefathers? That's completely ignorant. This thread isn't about what Japan did or how they are dealing with their obvious guilt. Japan is second to worst, or in some eyes, even the worst as far as war crimes in WWII are concerned, but no one was a saint. The world was at the brink of being conquered by evil and desperate measures had to be taken. In the long run, you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet, so to say.

[dttk0009]

Nice gesture, yes, required..., no. I acknowledge your points though.
That's pretty much my point. No one in generations after the war is obligated to do apologize for anything, but it's still a nice gesture with only positive after effects.

[dttk0009]

I think you do understand without the bombs, the Japanese was gonna to fight to the end. How many people would die? How much more blood was going to shed? The bombs actually saved millions of lives. I assume you know before the A bomb, the long-time regular bombing already took away million people's lives.
This claim is pure theory and speculation. I could come out and say they wouldn't have and it would hold as much ground, though I do agree with you. I never said the bomb was a bad thing, but it claimed innocent lives and affected people who had nothing to do with WWII generations after. I'm done multi-posting now.p-)

[Solvent]

This claim is pure theory and speculation. I could come out and say they wouldn't have and it would hold as much ground, though I do agree with you. I never said the bomb was a bad thing, but it claimed innocent lives and affected people who had nothing to do with WWII generations after. I'm done multi-posting now.p-)

Don't underestimate people's resolution to defend their countries.

War is war, when war machine is running, innocent lives will be wasted, and the only thing people can do is to suck up and take it. That is why war is evil and despicable.

[Connaught Ranger]

So many people in this thread missing the point. Anything to not damage that precious ego, eh?

What Ego?

I think the planks who organized the trip / PR Stunt have missed the point and now are guilty of perpetuating the myth that America and the Allies did something wrong, in WW2 in my book that's Revisionism.

Will there be reciprocal apologies from the Japanese Government and people, publicly made to the countless victims of the crimes committed by the Imperial Japanese Military in the many lands they invaded?

Connaught Ranger.

[Connaught Ranger]

This claim is pure theory and speculation. I could come out and say they wouldn't have and it would hold as much ground, though I do agree with you. I never said the bomb was a bad thing, but it claimed innocent lives and affected people who had nothing to do with WWII generations after. I'm done trolling now.p-)

Go back and re-read up on the casualty figures the Allies were encountering even taking the lesser islands before even arriving at the Japanese home islands. (It's also obvious you have a very poor understanding of the Japanese mentality of the period.) Therefore any use of new weapons technology to end the war quickly with lesser casualties to the Allied Forces is perfectly legitimate tactic.

Connaught Ranger.

[546]

Because dropping the bomb in itself was destructive, killing thousands of women and children...

ummm, and what about the hundreds of thousands of civilians they killed in korea, china, singapore, malaya, and the philippines? remember nanking? manila? death march?

the japanese have not apologized for what they did. their parliament (which has just been recently dissolved) has never issued an apology for what they did and no japanese leader from hirohito and his prime ministers up to the present have said anything that hinted remorse on what they did during the war.

true, some of their veterans and some of the younger japanese apologize for what happened. but officially, they are still mumm on the subject:|

[Connaught Ranger]

That's pretty much my point. No one in generations after the war is obligated to do apologize for anything, but it's still a nice gesture with only positive after effects.

Is there a historical family connection to Japan, that compels you to stand up for the Japanese, is there any possibility your family were pro-Phibun / pro-Japanese in WW2 and welcomed them into the country as liberators?


Thailand responded pragmatically to the military and political pressures of World War II. When sporadic fighting broke out between Thai and French forces along Thailand's eastern frontier in late 1940 and early 1941, Japan used its influence with the Vichy regime in France to obtain concessions for Thailand.

As a result, France agreed in March 1941 to cede 54,000 square kilometers of Laotian territory west of the Mekong and most of the Cambodian province of Battambang to Thailand. The recovery of this lost territory and the regime's apparent victory over a European colonial power greatly enhanced Prime Minister Phibun's reputation.

Then, on December 8, 1941, after several hours of fighting between Thai and Japanese troops at Chumphon, Thailand had to accede to Japanese demands for access through the country for Japanese forces invading Burma and Malaya.

Phibun assured the country that the Japanese action was prearranged with a sympathetic Thai government. Later in the month Phibun signed a mutual defense pact with Japan. Pridi resigned from the cabinet in protest but subsequently accepted the nonpolitical position of regent for the absent Ananda Mahidol.

Under pressure from Japan, the Phibun regime declared war on Britain and the United States in January 1942, but the Thai ambassador in Washington, Seni Pramoj, refused to deliver the declaration to the United States government.

Accordingly, the United States refrained from declaring war on Thailand. With American assistance Seni, a conservative aristocrat whose anti-Japanese credentials were well established, organized the Free Thai Movement, recruiting Thai students in the United States to work with the United States Office of Strategic Services (OSS).

The OSS trained Thai personnel for underground activities, and units were readied to infiltrate Thailand. From the office of the regent in Thailand, Pridi ran a clandestine movement that by the end of the war had with Allied aid armed more than 50,000 Thai to resist the Japanese.

Thailand was rewarded for Phibun's close cooperation with Japan during the early years of war with the return of further territory that had once been under Bangkok's control, including portions of the Shan states in Burma and the four northernmost Malay states. Japan meanwhile had stationed 150,000 troops on Thai soil and built the infamous "death railway" through Thailand using Allied prisoners of war.

As the war dragged on, however, the Japanese presence grew more irksome. Trade came to a halt, and Japanese military personnel requisitioning supplies increasingly dealt with Thailand as a conquered territory rather than as an ally.

Allied bombing raids damaged Bangkok and other targets and caused several thousand casualties. Public opinion and, even more important, the sympathies of the civilian political elite, moved perceptibly against the Phibun regime and the military. In June 1944, Phibun was forced from office and replaced by the first predominantly civilian government since the 1932 coup.

Connaught Rangerp-)

[546]

dttk0009 i guess it is easy for you to say those things because, if you are really from thailand, your country was never raped, bled dry, and burned by the japanese during the war. i agree with Connaught Ranger that you should brush up on your history...

here are some things which might help you...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Manila_(1945)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March

[dttk0009]

dttk0009 i guess it is easy for you to say those things because, if you are really from thailand, your country was never raped, bled dry, and burned by the japanese during the war. i agree with Connaught Ranger that you should brush up on your history...

here are some things which might help you...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Manila_(1945 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Manila_%281945))

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March
I'm German, though I'm sure that is enough clause for people to jump to conclusions as well. Having spent most of my life here, though, I understand fairly well where they stood in WWII.

Connaught Ranger, I'm not claiming that the use of the atomic bomb was illegitimate, and I understand the importance of the message it sent to the Japanese. I even stated earlier in a post that I agree with the decision made to drop it. I also don't understand why everyone keeps telling me how evil they were. I know this. I learned about it in school and have done my own research. I've acknowledged it countless times. I also understand that they have not apologized for their crimes. I personally don't see how a current generation Japanese citizen should though, as he's got nothing to do with Japan then. However, I'm not going to object when one of them does, in the same way that I'm not going to object to an American apologizing to the Japanese as a gesture of good will (who, again, is not obligated to do so). The countries are allied now, after all.Are they not?

[546]

being german does not automatically mean you're fascist and we all know that there were germans who tried and failed to kill hitler. i agree that the present generation should not be made to answer for what their fathers have done. but they should be made aware so that they would be able to properly see themselves as a people. as far as i know, the history books in japan are very much different from those that are in germany. while the germans acknowledge what the nazis did and have been trying to express in various ways (even violently as in the case of the RAF) their disgust over that dark period in their history, the japanese, as a people, have yet to know and understand objectively what they did during the war. until the history books in japan are rewritten, they will never understand why thoe atomic bombs were dropped on them.

[dttk0009]

I'm pretty sure most schools in Japan teach their students about WWII, but choose to omit certain things. My education is mostly American, as I attended an international school (American school system) grade 5 onwards, so I'd like to think that I have a fairly balanced view of how the war played out.:)
My initial post came off a bit harsh, so I apologize if it caused any offense.

[Connaught Ranger]

I'm German, though I'm sure that is enough clause for people to jump to conclusions as well. Having spent most of my life here, though, I understand fairly well where they stood in WWII.

Connaught Ranger, I'm not claiming that the use of the atomic bomb was illegitimate, and I understand the importance of the message it sent to the Japanese. I even stated earlier in a post that I agree with the decision made to drop it. I also don't understand why everyone keeps telling me how evil they were. I know this. I learned about it in school and have done my own research. I've acknowledged it countless times. I also understand that they have not apologized for their crimes. I personally don't see how a current generation Japanese citizen should though, as he's got nothing to do with Japan then. However, I'm not going to object when one of them does, in the same way that I'm not going to object to an American apologizing to the Japanese as a gesture of good will (who, again, is not obligated to do so). The countries are allied now, after all.Are they not?

So its pointless a member of today's America apologizing to Japanese people of today era, when the Japanese from any era, have never apologised or even acknowledged that their nation did any wrong.:roll:

[Connaught Ranger]

I'm pretty sure most schools in Japan teach their students about WWII, but choose to omit certain things. My education is mostly American, as I attended an international school (American school system) grade 5 onwards, so I'd like to think that I have a fairly balanced view of how the war played out.:)
My initial post came off a bit harsh, so I apologize if it caused any offense.

In fact, nearly all of what the Japanese were doing in WW2 is purposely left out of the school curriculum.:roll:

[dttk0009]

In fact, nearly all of what the Japanese were doing in WW2 is purposely left out of the school curriculum.:roll:
15 year old Monami seems to know what's up.p-)

Also, in a sense the apology is pointless, yes. Like I said, I wouldn't apologize for something that I am not personally or directly responsible for. However, it's still a nice gesture, especially to those who still suffer under the after effects of the fallout, so I don't see a problem with it. I'd say the same if roles were reversed. That's pretty much it.

[Ordie]

Even God cannot change history.

I've been to Nagasaki and visted the memorials.

Yes I was moved.

At the same time there's nothing that cannot be done, except to remind us the awesome power and responsibility in the use of atomic weapons.

And how we must do everything to prevent the proliferation of such weapons in the hands of irresponsible and fragile powers.

[Flagg]

I am not a war loving kinda guy.

But my grandfather would have been one of the cannon fodder for the Operation Downfall meat grinder as he was able bodied teeth arms Army in the Pacific Theatre......one of millions who would have been lost on both sides.

The world would quite possibly be a much different place today without the two nuclear weapons having been used.

As far as sorry goes, the only thing I'm sorry about is that the two nukes weren't available a year earlier with the means to deliver them to prevent the nearly 100,000 allied casualties suffered during the taking of Iwo Jima and Okinawa.

What contributions could many of America's best and brightest have made for humanity, or just for their families, had they lived?

When I think of kids appologizing out of ignorance I think of Rifleman Cyrus Thatcher:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=161583

And how many more Cyrus Thatchers would have been needlessly killed if those nukes weren't used?

Japan suffered horrifically from it, but my grandfather lived.

Works for me........Too fcuking bad they couldn't drop them sooner.

[oldsoak]

Nanking
"Sook Ching" in Singapore that killed hundreds if not thousands of Singapore Chinese.
Allied POW death march in Sandakan
Cant see what we've to apologise about really.

[Hawaii_Light]

I am not a war loving kinda guy.

But my grandfather would have been one of the cannon fodder for the Operation Downfall meat grinder as he was able bodied teeth arms Army in the Pacific Theatre......one of millions who would have been lost on both sides.

The world would quite possibly be a much different place today without the two nuclear weapons having been used.

As far as sorry goes, the only thing I'm sorry about is that the two nukes weren't available a year earlier with the means to deliver them to prevent the nearly 100,000 allied casualties suffered during the taking of Iwo Jima and Okinawa.

What contributions could many of America's best and brightest have made for humanity, or just for their families, had they lived?

When I think of kids appologizing out of ignorance I think of Rifleman Cyrus Thatcher:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=161583

And how many more Cyrus Thatchers would have been needlessly killed if those nukes weren't used?

Japan suffered horrifically from it, but my grandfather lived.

Works for me........Too fcuking bad they couldn't drop them sooner.

My grandfather died on Iwo Jima, and I am pretty ****ing sure he wouldn't have wanted thousands of innocent lives to be destroyed just so he could live.

But anyways whats the big ****ing deal, even though it had to be done, we can at least be humble about it and maybe give a good example for the Japanese to follow rather then to spout all this pride, and they did worse bull**** that seems to be popular with this site.

[timetraveller]

The reason why Harry Truman gave the order of the using the Atom bombs what the fact of the Suicide Attacks [ kamikazes ] Leyete Gulf , Okinawa ,Saipan and remember the news of such attacks was forbidden to be even printed in the Press . And remember how many , It must be noted that Japanese civilians believe what they were told and we US Soldiers watched them jump to their deaths along with their kids.

Such the freocity of the attack the Navy sought to find a problem to quell the attacks because they were constant it was something new like of which they had never experienced and someone whom isn't named thought of the Picket defence a line of ships ahead of the main invasion force .
And lets not forget a good many ships were lost to Kamikaze attacks ...
And their also is footage of US planes shooting down bombers which were carrying human flying bombs which weren't realised at the time untill such items were found when the war ended it became apparant of the various methods included Mini Subs the Japanese were prepared to use soley to defend their homeland whereby they sent the Yamato on a one way suicide mission to engage Halsey fleet , though US spotted it and sank it before it got within range of the fleet

And the the President wouldn't risk so many US Casualties so inturn Truman saved many US lives of those that would have landed on Japan itself

And it's told that the person that created the Kamikaze units took a plane and flew off into the Sunset in search of a target , and some say he was seen alive many yrs after the war

Kamikaze - divine wind There is a DVD on the subject i suggest many of you seek it out ..

[Connaught Ranger]

My grandfather died on Iwo Jima, and I am pretty ****ing sure he wouldn't have wanted thousands of innocent lives to be destroyed just so he could live.

But anyways whats the big ****ing deal, even though it had to be done, we can at least be humble about it and maybe give a good example for the Japanese to follow rather then to spout all this pride, and they did worse bull**** that seems to be popular with this site.

I doubt if your Grandfather would be so petty about it, and he probably would not have been thinking of himself but his comrades, friends and countrymen he was serving with.

Seeing you brought the word "pride" into this thread, for the Japanese its all about "losing face", and by not admitting to their past mistakes and faults, they perversely perceive their national pride is kept intact.

It has very little to do with our pride or "they did worse bull*****," its about being responsible and acknowledging their (Japans) actions, they brought this upon themselves.

And the "sins" of the fathers will always be visited upon their children, its human nature.

Connaught Ranger.

[Connaught Ranger]

15 year old Monami seems to know what's up.p-)

What a dumb comment.


Monami, age 15

"I was moved to learn about the people visiting Japan to ask forgiveness. They are very gentle and kind. I can imagine it will be a brave act to meet the Japanese people who suffered and ask forgiveness. We appreciate that there are people in America who try to think of Japan and Japanese people long after the war is over."

Seems she has conveniently forgotten what her own countrymen were up to in W.W.2., if she ever knew about it in the first place.:roll:

If the people who organized this "apology" are so lily-livered and hateful of the U.S.A. actions in W.W.2. then they are free to leave the country, because their actions are the biggest insult that can be given to the families of those men and women who sacrificed their lives in this period to stop the Japanese, and ultimately preserve the American way of life, (even to the point of granting these sad sacks the right to make such revisionist comments with regards the War against Japan.)

Connaught Ranger.

[IraGlacialis]

What a dumb comment.

Seems she has conveniently forgotten what her own countrymen were up to in W.W.2., if she ever knew about it in the first place.:roll:

If the people who organized this "apology" are so lily-livered and hateful of the U.S.A. actions in W.W.2. then they are free to leave the country, because their actions are the biggest insult that can be given to the families of those men and women who sacrificed their lives in this period to stop the Japanese, and ultimately preserve the American way of life, (even to the point of granting these sad sacks the right to make such revisionist comments with regards the War against Japan.)

Connaught Ranger.
Um... Monami's comment was this one:

"I think those people in Tacoma are wonderful and modest because they will visit Japan to ask forgiveness although it was Japan that started the war. Japan should visit your country and apologize first. In any war, both countries have to be responsible for the results. I think this visit will be a good chance to forgive each other and make a better relationship."

Which makes sense.

The article probably should have made up its mind to which order it place the quotes with the speaker.

[Connaught Ranger]

Um... Monami's comment was this one:

"I think those people in Tacoma are wonderful and modest because they will visit Japan to ask forgiveness although it was Japan that started the war. Japan should visit your country and apologize first. In any war, both countries have to be responsible for the results. I think this visit will be a good chance to forgive each other and make a better relationship."

Which makes sense.

The article probably should have made up its mind to which order it place the quotes with the speaker.


Thanks for the clarification,woot

so we have one out of how many willing to admit that Japan was at fault?

[Solvent]

What a dumb comment.



Seems she has conveniently forgotten what her own countrymen were up to in W.W.2., if she ever knew about it in the first place.:roll:

If the people who organized this "apology" are so lily-livered and hateful of the U.S.A. actions in W.W.2. then they are free to leave the country, because their actions are the biggest insult that can be given to the families of those men and women who sacrificed their lives in this period to stop the Japanese, and ultimately preserve the American way of life, (even to the point of granting these sad sacks the right to make such revisionist comments with regards the War against Japan.)

Connaught Ranger.

Well said.....

[Excelencia]

15 year old Monami seems to know what's up.p-)

Also, in a sense the apology is pointless, yes. Like I said, I wouldn't apologize for something that I am not personally or directly responsible for. However, it's still a nice gesture, especially to those who still suffer under the after effects of the fallout, so I don't see a problem with it. I'd say the same if roles were reversed. That's pretty much it.

DTTK,
What the victim countries want is the japanese government's apology. They don't need today's japanese citizens apology.

[Panchito12]

Yesterday we apologized to China for no reason. Today Japan. Frankly so many apologies beats the hell out of having to pay any retribution or actually giving a s**t about what happened.

[Euroamerican]

being german does not automatically mean you're fascist and we all know that there were germans who tried and failed to kill hitler. i agree that the present generation should not be made to answer for what their fathers have done. but they should be made aware so that they would be able to properly see themselves as a people. as far as i know, the history books in japan are very much different from those that are in germany. while the germans acknowledge what the nazis did and have been trying to express in various ways (even violently as in the case of the RAF) their disgust over that dark period in their history, the japanese, as a people, have yet to know and understand objectively what they did during the war. until the history books in japan are rewritten, they will never understand why thoe atomic bombs were dropped on them.

Interesting point, 546.

Please keep coming back for discussions, both you and DTTK. You'll get a vigorous reply for certain perspectives, but its good to have many various viewpoints brought up and dicussed.

I get really tired of these US revisionist apologizers, but wouldn't it be nice if we saw more from the Japanese side? I think that is the root of the issue. Another root issue: A subset of (US) citizens who, at the core of their belief system, always believe that their own country, government, and culture is "wrong". This sets them up for always being "sorry" for everything. A generalization, but that underlying feeling plus "nukes evil" puts them into a certain mindset.

BTW: We, the Allies, killed a lot more Japanese civilians in non-nuclear attacks on other Japanese cities. From one of my books, I remember the discussion that the only Japanses cities left which were NOT firebombed into cinders were the four cities which were saved for "special weapons" purposes. What I'm getting at is that those two cities (plus the other two which didn't get nuked) were filled with dead men walking.

[Excelencia]

I dont know why the USA has to apologize to Japan.
Japan attacked USA first than after being defeated by USA, it could have been turned into a colony but USA gave their freedom back and helped them to become the world’s second economy.
They started the WWII in Asia and inflicted so much casualty and destruction to other Asian countries but today, thanks to USA, they are a prosperous country. Nobody benefited more from the WWII than Japan thanks to the USA. They should have been punished but they were rather rewarded.
Japan owes so much to the USA.

[gaijinsamurai]

Will there be reciprocal apologies from the Japanese Government and people, publicly made to the countless victims of the crimes committed by the Imperial Japanese Military in the many lands they invaded?

Connaught Ranger.

It's already happened, numerous times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

[SBL]

It's already happened, numerous times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan
You ought to know better than to let facts get in the way of a good rant.

[kitatatsumi]

If the views on this thread are any indication of popular sentiment, then the apology, if given, would be insincere. The US might feel a bit of remorse, but it isn't sorry and it doesn't regret the decision. In that respect, apology is an empty gesture and should be avoided.
Which suits me just fine.

[gaijinsamurai]

Kitatatsumi, I believe those kids who are making the apologies are definitely sincere, and have the best of intentions. But, that is probably only because they have been brainwashed by left-wing teachers who don't appreciate the sacrifices our soldiers, sailors, and Marines made in WWII, and want to perpetuate the myth that somehow, everything the US Government and military does is evil.

[Connaught Ranger]

It's already happened, numerous times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

Cant seem to see the specific apology to the British, Australians, etc..etc..

Even the last entry, apology delivered from the Embassy in the U.S.A. for the Bataan death, march seems to be rather casual, delivered by a low ranking Embassy official, seeing how much the Japanese are sticklers for protocol, it rates as high as about a waiter saying sorry for having his thumb in your soup bowl when serving the table.

[vinny_121_ND]

Yesterday we apologized to China for no reason. Today Japan. Frankly so many apologies beats the hell out of having to pay any retribution or actually giving a s**t about what happened.

Apology to China? For what? If you're referring to the california thing, that's a different story.

There should never have been a apology to japan. The Japanese were never going to surrender, and if the americans did a ground war, many many more lives would have ended. I hate it when americans go off saying stuff without knowing all the facts, pure ignorance.

[jack72]

If I had a kid in that class, I would pull him out of the school immediatly.

On the next veterns day...how are those kids going to look at the WWII vets in the eye.

[Excelencia]

If the views on this thread are any indication of popular sentiment, then the apology, if given, would be insincere. The US might feel a bit of remorse, but it isn't sorry and it doesn't regret the decision. In that respect, apology is an empty gesture and should be avoided.
Which suits me just fine.

That's the same feeling among the victim countries: Japan apologies were never sincere.
Using your own words: "(Japan) isn't sorry and it doesn't regret the decision. In that respect, apology is an empty gesture."

[toki]

That's the same feeling among the victim countries: Japan apologies were never sincere.
Using your own words: "(Japan) isn't sorry and it doesn't regret the decision. In that respect, apology is an empty gesture."

"Japan isn't sorry" doesn't make sense.
At some point you have to consider that Japan is a country of what - 100(?) million people. And you can't make 1 person out of it. A country can't feel sorry, groups of people can. And i believe gaijinsamurai, who lived there as non japanese that the general feeling is a certain humility.

Japanese aren't Germans. The Japanese are insular, not only in their geography, but also their culture (related of course). Germany never was, obviously. Pretty much the oppossite: A patchwork in itself and sitting in the middle of Europe. It still directly borders all the countries that it invaded. Think about it, former enemies do literally live across the street in many cases. The cultural exchange in border regions is strong. People normally share a local history regardless of national borders.
Enemies shared a more or less common central European culture. The fact the the relations to the western countries are more relaxed even support this idea, since there was a new border to the east.

All that does't exist in Japan. The pretext is totally different.

[Connaught Ranger]

"Japan isn't sorry" doesn't make sense.
At some point you have to consider that Japan is a country of what - 100(?) million people. And you can't make 1 person out of it. A country can't feel sorry, groups of people can. And i believe gaijinsamurai, who lived there as non japanese that the general feeling is a certain humility.

Not like the Germans, but that has many reasons IMHO. The Japanese are insular, not only in their geography, but also their culture (related of course). Germany never was, obviously. It still directly borders all the countries that it invaded. Think about it, former enemies do literally live across the street in many cases. The cultural exchange in border regions is strong. People normally share a local history regardless of national borders.
Enemies shared a more or less common central European culture.

All that does't exist in Japan. The pretext is totally different.

Unfortunately for many countries and people they did not stay insular between 1934 and 1945:roll:.

Since 1945 they are not so insular, have had a booming trade system, and in the field of communications technology and interaction with many parts of the world, but when it comes to the mistakes they made in the not to distant past, they prefer to bury their heads in the sand and pretend it did not happen.

Connaught Ranger.

[Mike1976]

The Japanese killed thousands of Dutch POWs, forced them to work to death, imprisoned civilians in horrible conditions, put our women in brothels where they were raped dozens of times a day etc. A year or two ago, the Japanese prime-minister with a straight face proclaimed this never happened. So no, forgiveness is not exactly on my to-do list. If you do certain things, you can expect to find yourself at the receiving end sooner or later. What goes around, comes around, no matter how unfortunate that is for the truly innocent.

[vinny_121_ND]

The Japanese killed thousands of Dutch POWs, forced them to work to death, imprisoned civilians in horrible conditions, put our women in brothels where they were raped dozens of times a day etc. A year or two ago, the Japanese prime-minister with a straight face proclaimed this never happened. So no, forgiveness is not exactly on my to-do list. If you do certain things, you can expect to find yourself at the receiving end sooner or later. What goes around, comes around, no matter how unfortunate that is for the truly innocent.

That`s horrible. The current PM Taro Aso won`t be back during the next election I guarantee you that.

[dttk0009]

"Japan isn't sorry" doesn't make sense.
At some point you have to consider that Japan is a country of what - 100(?) million people. And you can't make 1 person out of it. A country can't feel sorry, groups of people can. And i believe gaijinsamurai, who lived there as non japanese that the general feeling is a certain humility.

Japanese aren't Germans. The Japanese are insular, not only in their geography, but also their culture (related of course). Germany never was, obviously. Pretty much the oppossite: A patchwork in itself and sitting in the middle of Europe. It still directly borders all the countries that it invaded. Think about it, former enemies do literally live across the street in many cases. The cultural exchange in border regions is strong. People normally share a local history regardless of national borders.
Enemies shared a more or less common central European culture. The fact the the relations to the western countries are more relaxed even support this idea, since there was a new border to the east.

All that does't exist in Japan. The pretext is totally different.
Well said.

[546]

Interesting point, 546.

Please keep coming back for discussions, both you and DTTK. You'll get a vigorous reply for certain perspectives, but its good to have many various viewpoints brought up and dicussed.

I get really tired of these US revisionist apologizers, but wouldn't it be nice if we saw more from the Japanese side? I think that is the root of the issue. Another root issue: A subset of (US) citizens who, at the core of their belief system, always believe that their own country, government, and culture is "wrong". This sets them up for always being "sorry" for everything. A generalization, but that underlying feeling plus "nukes evil" puts them into a certain mindset.

BTW: We, the Allies, killed a lot more Japanese civilians in non-nuclear attacks on other Japanese cities. From one of my books, I remember the discussion that the only Japanses cities left which were NOT firebombed into cinders were the four cities which were saved for "special weapons" purposes. What I'm getting at is that those two cities (plus the other two which didn't get nuked) were filled with dead men walking.
thanks euroamerican. but while there may be some points where i agree with dttk0009, i am one among many who still wait for the japanese government to acknoledgw their responsibility in starting the most destructive war in the pacific.

like many in this forum, i also read about that apology for the bataan death march in california and while it may appease some of the battling bastards of bataan still alive in california, we have to hear a full apology by a japanese leader for what they did during the war. the japanese may have signed the san francisco treaty in, i think, 1948, for the payment of war reparations, but they have yet to admit to themselves that they destroyed a lot of lives and countries in a war they started.

like what Excelencia said, what the victim countries, specially the individuals victims themselves need to see is for a japanese prime minister to apologize and revise their history books, and eventually their mentality. instead what the leaders have been doing is visit the yasukuni shrine every year and perpetuate the erroneous accounts of the war in their school books. japan, as a nation, has still to come to grips with the realities of the second world war.

[546]

Unfortunately for many countries and people they did not stay insular between 1934 and 1945:roll:.

Since 1945 they are not so insular, have had a booming trade system, and in the field of communications technology and interaction with many parts of the world, but when it comes to the mistakes they made in the not to distant past, they prefer to bury their heads in the sand and pretend it did not happen.

Connaught Ranger.
toki, you are an anthropologist :) thank you for pointing out the difference between the germans and the japanese. i would also like to add that while in germany there were people against hitler (communists, jews, businessmen, political parties, the military), the case in japan was different because the japanese fought as one people. there was really no significant anti-militarist group during that time and everyone wanted to fight and die for the Emperor and Japan.

you're right Connaught Ranger, the japanese, especially their leaders, prefer to bury their heads in the sand and smile to their neighbors pretending that the attrocities of the second world war in the pacific never happened.

[vinny_121_ND]

I think some Japanese will continue denying those things happened, that there should be laws making it illegal to deny them. The Germans made it illegal to deny the Holocaust existed. Japan needs to end this once and for all, and for the few to stop embarrassing their nation, even though I've accepted the apologies.

[dttk0009]

I think some Japanese will continue denying those things happened, that there should be laws making it illegal to deny them. The Germans made it illegal to deny the Holocaust existed. Japan needs to end this once and for all, and for the few to stop embarrassing their nation, even though I've accepted the apologies.
Apologies are thrown around by almost every nation these days when it comes to WWII, even from Americans (as this thread has shown). By this I don't mean exclusively official government apologies, by the way. The English, for example, raised a fund for the reparation of landmarks in Dresden and I think they recently rebuilt a famous church there. It's all just to improve current relations. It doesn't bring back any of the dead. Like I said in one of my earlier posts, in WWII, no one was a saint, at least none of the big players. Having said that, what would an official Japanese apology do for anyone here? How would it make you feel better? How far would you want an apology to go? Is monetary compensation required? What about after the apology? Should this trend continue for generations to come? Is one apology enough? I don't see why so many people here expect one from people who had nothing to do with the war itself. It ended nearly 70 years ago with countless other wars to fill the gap.

[IraGlacialis]

Having said that, what would an official Japanese apology do for anyone here? How would it make you feel better? How far would you want an apology to go? Is monetary compensation required? What about after the apology? Should this trend continue for generations to come? Is one apology enough? I don't see why so many people here expect one from people who had nothing to do with the war itself. It ended nearly 70 years ago with countless other wars to fill the gap.
I would say that an official Japanese apology would consist of diplomatic visits to invaded areas, no suger-coating in textbooks (we don't do so with slavery or what we did to the Indians), and possibly a couple funds towards existing memorials. Nothing extravagant.

This should be done by the official government, not the Imperial family. From what I have seen, Emperor Akihito has actually done quite a bit of acknowledgment about the role of Japan in WWII.

If the receiver is gracious or at least acknowledges the gesture, great. If not, oh well, Japan tried.

Once this happens, we should just drop the apologies on both sides and get on with our lives. We should never forget what happened, but when you keep apologizing like what this school did 60+ years later, it loses its meaning after a while.

[Ricky111]

I don't think we Americans have anything to ask foregiveness for.

I'm glad to see the sudents are able to visit Japan and make some connections, and the dialogue is good, but the premise that we did something evil (as terrible as the bombings were), when the war was forced upon us, is utter bull$h!t.


x2 it was Japanese imperialism that pillaged China and most of Asia, causing untold suffering. The bombs were the quickest way to end the war, and end it they did.


x2, American did good thing to the world. Japanese really need to look back at their history to understand what caused the bombing and try hard to avoid it happen again. Not just acting like innocent victims.

I Totally agree with you guys. No doubt the effects of the atomic bombs were horrific and I have my sympathy for the victims of the two nuclear bombs; however, It is also clear to everyone that Japan would continue sending troops to fight the war if US didn't use nuclear weapon.

[Hawaii_Light]

I would say that an official Japanese apology would consist of diplomatic visits to invaded areas, no suger-coating in textbooks (we don't do so with slavery or what we did to the Indians), and possibly a couple funds towards existing memorials. Nothing extravagant.

we sure as hell used to sugar coat it, and omit it, the reality of the situation is that the Japanese are only hurting themselves by not apologizing.

And the people who think that this is positively awful that some Americans are offering an apology, which doesn't even have to be made, about the deaths of thousands of woman and children which (as pointed out is not even close to the amounts slaughtered by the Japanese) but still a considerable amount of human lives which suffered and burned in the fires of their own creating and our own initiative, this in no way should deny the respect and perhaps humility that we should have for the situation.

Connaught Ranger said something to the point of the Japanese will do anything not to lose face, he is correct, but how are we any different if all we do is spit fire and vendetta on a tragic time of history in which we should all be happy to reveal in the sacrifice of our ancestors who ended it the best way they knew how at the time.

Arrogance and pride will get you no where, If you know anything about East Asian relations then you will know the Japanese are suffering from their own mistakes while our ability to forgive and forge new relationships with past enemies is what makes us strong.

It seems a lot of you could be just feud holding high blood pressure dip****s.

[Excelencia]

Arrogance and pride will get you no where, If you know anything about East Asian relations then you will know the Japanese are suffering from their own mistakes while our ability to forgive and forge new relationships with past enemies is what makes us strong.

I'm an East Asian but didn't get the point. Care to explain please?
Care to show some evidence of Japan's suffering? Yakusuni?

[IraGlacialis]

we sure as hell used to sugar coat it, and omit it, the reality of the situation is that the Japanese are only hurting themselves by not apologizing.
Key word is "used to". Not saying that there isn't some sucrose residue left, but it isn't to the point of complete revision/omission of the nasty bits.

And the people who think that this is positively awful that some Americans are offering an apology, which doesn't even have to be made, about the deaths of thousands of woman and children which (as pointed out is not even close to the amounts slaughtered by the Japanese) but still a considerable amount of human lives which suffered and burned in the fires of their own creating and our own initiative, this in no way should deny the respect and perhaps humility that we should have for the situation.x2
The likely fact that the bombing was justified doesn't make it any less horrific.
Though, as I stated before, as nice as the gesture is, saying "sorry" loses its meaning after x amounts of repeated attempts.

[Hawaii_Light]

I'm an East Asian but didn't get the point. Care to explain please?
Care to show some evidence of Japan's suffering? Yakusuni?

The very fact that Japan hasn't provided an acceptable and adequate apology to it's neighbors and those whom were harmed by Japanese imperialist aggression has caused Japan to face constant, and I believe justified, scorn from China, Korea and other nations, both as a widespread public opinion as well as a political initiative.

If you are Korean or Chinese then I am sure you know this to be true.

[BearInBunnySuit]

To me, it makes no difference how many times Japan apologizes for its past when it still elects public officials who continue to deny and refute history. Japan, as a nation, cannot hope for better ties with its neighbors when Asian holocaust deniers are allowed prominent platforms to spout their versions of whitewashed history.

For those of you who believe Japan has said sorry enough times, go find a comfort woman who has had her youth and dignity robbed by the Japanese war machine and tell her that to her face.

[Excelencia]

The very fact that Japan hasn't provided an acceptable and adequate apology to it's neighbors and those whom were harmed by Japanese imperialist aggression has caused Japan to face constant, and I believe justified, scorn from China, Korea and other nations, both as a widespread public opinion as well as a political initiative.

If you are Korean or Chinese then I am sure you know this to be true.

Ok. Now I understand, but calling it suffering??? Don't you think it's a bit exaggerated??? I would call it at best “bothered” but never suffering.
Anyway, whether suffering or not they have the power to stop it.

[Nietz]

LOL, apology goes to Japan, what a joke..

[Excelencia]

LOL, apology goes to Japan, what a joke..

Yeah, and they said they will accept it.
Cool people.
The truth is: they don’t say it in public, but are still waiting for USA’s apology.

[Maktab]

This does seem a bit silly. The point of an apology is not to say sorry for mere suffering, but to acknowledge and seek forgiveness for past wrongs and the unnecessary suffering they caused. These kids, driven no doubt by their clueless teachers, are apologising to the Japanese on the basis that what America did was wrong and that it should therefore seek forgiveness for its actions.

That's why there's so much resistance in this forum to it. The dropping of nuclear weapons on Japan was not wrong, nor was the suffering that resulted unnecessary. It was horrific, of that there is no doubt, and that should be soberly acknowledged but it was the least bad option available to the Allies and it almost certainly saved far more Japanese lives than it took. Considering all this, and the fact that this was a war that Japan started, an apology just doesn't make any sense. The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are owed an apology, but they're owed it by their own government, not the United States.

Think of this in more limited terms. If some guy were to attack you in a bar, let's say for no good reason, and in defending yourself and trying to end the fight you knocked him out and broke his arm, would it make any sense whatsoever to be remorseful for doing it? Of course not, you might be sorry the whole thing ever happened, but you're hardly going to apologise for taking the only reasonable option under the circumstances.

[Solvent]

The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are owed an apology, but they're owed it by their own government, not the United States.



This is a very good point.

[gaijinsamurai]

x2 what Solvent just wrote.

[dttk0009]

For those of you who believe Japan has said sorry enough times, go find a comfort woman who has had her youth and dignity robbed by the Japanese war machine and tell her that to her face.
Oh please.

[Excelencia]

This is a very good point.

I agree with you.

[BearInBunnySuit]

Oh please.

Oh please what?

[546]

The people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are owed an apology, but they're owed it by their own government, not the United States.

Think of this in more limited terms. If some guy were to attack you in a bar, let's say for no good reason, and in defending yourself and trying to end the fight you knocked him out and broke his arm, would it make any sense whatsoever to be remorseful for doing it? Of course not, you might be sorry the whole thing ever happened, but you're hardly going to apologise for taking the only reasonable option under the circumstances.

like those before me... i agree!

[546]

Oh please.
talking about comfort women... as a german, i am sure you are aware of what happened to the women in germany(particularly in berlin) when the soviets defeated the nazis. don't you think those who raped and brutalized also deserve an apology from the russians?

[Holmes85]

talking about comfort women... as a german, i am sure you are aware of what happened to the women in germany(particularly in berlin) when the soviets defeated the nazis. don't you think those who raped and brutalized also deserve an apology from the russians?

But didn't Germany carry out acts that were just as brutal during their invasion of the Soviet Union.

[T3ngu]

Oh please.
Honest to god, you are deluded. Your time on this forum is looking shorter by the day.

IMO this was a valid point, and you disregard it, there are many people living with the issues of japanese aggression even today.

[Holmes85]

Honest to god, you are deluded. Your time on this forum is looking shorter by the day.

IMO this was a valid point, and you disregard it, there are many people living with the issues of japanese aggression even today.

I agree with you there. I really don't like it when people downplay such a horrible event in human history.

[dttk0009]

Honest to god, you are deluded. Your time on this forum is looking shorter by the day.

IMO this was a valid point, and you disregard it, there are many people living with the issues of japanese aggression even today.
The whole point is that everyone suffered. There are many people in Japan today who are still suffering from the after effects of the war as well. American GI's also raped Japanese women during the occupation. I think everyone knows this, but the claim simply made it seem like Japan was the sole offender of horrific acts in WWII when that simply isn't the case.

546, I'm well aware as my grandmother lived in Kreuzberg at the time. I think an apology from the rapists or brutalizers would make sense, though I don't see the point in an official Russian apology. The Russia today is not the same Russia from then, the same goes for Germany, the USA, Japan etc. We should understand and remember what happened, and I'm not opposed to apologies (as they're just friendly gestures at this point), although I find them pointless as 99% of them aren't sincere and just politically motivated. What's done is done. Many people's lives were ruined, especially in Asia and Europe. I think humanity needs to look to the future instead of obsessing with the past, as cliche as that sounds.

[T3ngu]

Many people's lives were ruined, especially in Asia and Europe. I think humanity needs to look to the future instead of obsessing with the past, as cliche as that sounds.
Yes, this is true, but i can't see people ever fully forgetting the brutalism of the Japanese, which is what the problem is here as is this thread.

Yes, brutal acts were performed by all sides, but im pretty sure rapes of women were never officially sanctioned by the chain of command on the allied side, unlike certain axis nations.

I had a number of family members who served in the pacific theatre, and my friends grandfather was a POW in Burma, and hated the Japanese with a passion until the day he died, going as far as to avoid all japanese products. My grandfather cried everytime the war was brought up until the day he died last year, and not surprisinngly held a grudge against the Japanese, not Japanese people as a whole, but the warmongers that cause the war in the pacific.

What about the soliders that had to fight the Japense and German aggression, how about they have an apology. (and no im not suggest we go and look for one).

I think many still find it offensive to appologise for something, that probably isn't required.

Sorry for slight off topic.

[dttk0009]

Yes, this is true, but i can't see people ever fully forgetting the brutalism of the Japanese, which is what the problem is here as is this thread.

Yes, brutal acts were performed by all sides, but im pretty sure rapes of women were never officially sanctioned by the chain of command on the allied side, unlike certain axis nations.

I had a number of family members who served in the pacific theatre, and my friends grandfather was a POW in Burma, and hated the Japanese with a passion until the day he died, going as far as to avoid all japanese products. My grandfather cried everytime the war was brought up until the day he died last year.

What about the soliders that had to fight the Japense and German agressions, how about they have an appology.

Sorry for slight off topic.
That's sad, T3ngu, sorry to hear that. Know that I carry utmost respect for soldiers of WWII who fought to stop the world from succumbing to pure evil. I couldn't even imagine what life would be like had imperial Japan or Nazi Germany prevailed. In the first few days of the occupation of Japan, there were hundreds of rapes a day (as far as reported rapes go), and I doubt if any of the offenders were trialed for it. Like you said, there was probably much hate for Japan and Japanese people in general at the time, and little order was present.

A lot of the soldiers who were fighting against the Japanese and Germans didn't have a choice as they were defending their country, while conscription in both aggressor countries was enforced. Actually, conscription was enforced almost everywhere back then. You can't brand the 15 year old kid who was forced to hold a rifle during the last days of Berlin for the atrocities committed by Nazi Germany. The leaders of those nations are long gone, and the aggressors and higher uppers have been trialed and punished accordingly. The people who have been politically active in Germany have tried to set things right since then. Japan hasn't been as open in their apologies but they certainly have changed, and there has been reconciliation.

[546]

A lot of the soldiers who were fighting against the Japanese and Germans didn't have a choice as they were defending their country, while conscription in both aggressor countries was enforced. Actually, conscription was enforced almost everywhere back then. You can't brand the 15 year old kid who was forced to hold a rifle during the last days of Berlin for the atrocities committed by Nazi Germany. The leaders of those nations are long gone, and the aggressors and higher uppers have been trialed and punished accordingly. The people who have been politically active in Germany have tried to set things right since then. Japan hasn't been as open in their apologies but they certainly have changed, and there has been reconciliation.

true, conscription was imposed on these countries, in the same manner also as those in the allied countries or even with more "convincing"methods like those in the former USSR. and to some extent i agree with you that not all members of the wermacht, the police, and the hitlerjugend during the battle of berlin were rabid nazis. there were really germans against hitler like those involved in the july 20 failed assasination and those in the abwehr under admiral canaris. but that is basically difference between japan and germany. there was internal resisitance in germany, in japan, it was non-existent.

germany has to some extent made amends with its neighbors and even condemns that part of her past. japan on the other hand, like what you also said, "hasn't been as open" in their apologies and to some extent their government even reinforces or justifies the claim that the war was righteous by visiting the yasukuni shrine every war and refusing, even up to now, to apologize to the thousands of comfort women from singapore, malaysia, the philippines, china and korea.

the germans condemned the nazis (even resulting to the fierce communist student and later terrorist movements in the 1970s which were an offshoot of the guilt-feelings of the sons and daughters of those who were alive during the war), while the japanese continue to praise those who took part in violent creation of the greater east-asia co-prosperity sphere. that is where i think, the difference in mindset lies.