Ukraine halts missile-loaded Russian convoy

[Atasas]

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=101466&sectionid=351020606
Ukraine has stopped two Russian military convoys, one of which was transporting missiles to the disputed naval base of Sevastopol.

Police stopped a convoy of three vehicles and found each was transporting a cruise missile to Russia's fleet in the Black Sea, the Ukrainian interior ministry said.

The convoy did not have the necessary authorization from Ukraine but was later allowed to continue its journey, the ministry added.
http://www.presstv.ir/photo/20090724/ghahri20090724004716812.jpg


Russia has had a fleet in the Ukrainian port of Sevastopol for more than 200 years, but the base has recently become a source of tension as relations between the two nations frayed.

Moscow has a lease on the base until 2017 and Ukrainian officials have repeatedly called for the fleet to leave when the lease expires.

Vasyl Kyrylych, the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry Spokesman, told Interfax that Russia must beware to avoid "possible violations" of Ukrainian law and agreements on the Russian fleet.

The Russian Black Sea fleet is just one of several disputes driving a wedge between Moscow and Kyiv.

[LineDoggie]

So basically this turned out to be nothing.

[Atasas]

So basically this turned out to be nothing.
yep, but nope!

Russia has had a fleet in the Ukrainian port of Sevastopol for more than 200 years, but the base has recently become a source of tension as relations between the two nations frayed.- the point?- to all of those that insist that Ukraine should be friendly with Russia...

[Universal_Soldier]

The Missiles were going out of the base not into the base. They were being transported to a maintenace facility 30km from the base before they were stopped by internal affairs special forces troops. They were however allowed to continue their trip.

Russia insits it gave prior notice for the transport though. This is only one of three similar incidents this month alone.

-Kyiv Post

Seems like V. yushchenko wants to ruffle some feathers.

[Atasas]

Seems like V. yushchenko wants to ruffle some feathers.
bit naive of him as its clear, apart from lies(false promises) Biden (on Obama instructions) is cutting the whole region out of support (even moral :lol:) What it produces?- more Russian arming and etc...

[TR1]

THis is news? lol.

[Atasas]

THis is news? lol.
Why would you rather not post?

[Sashko]

More cheap provocations :roll: 3rd time this month btw...


They should just put a T-72 in front of those convoys to plow through the annoying representatives of local traffic police - will add a few popularity points for the fleet with Sevastopol population for sure, majority of which already view (quite rightfully) Ukranian authorities as occupants/enemy.

[Xaito]

- the point?- to all of those that insist that Ukraine should be friendly with Russia...

you do know that most of those 200 years Sevastopol was a Russian city, yes?

[LineDoggie]

More cheap provocations :roll: 3rd time this month btw...


They should just put a T-72 in front of those convoys to plow through the annoying representatives of local traffic police - will add a few popularity points for the fleet with Sevastopol population for sure, majority of which already view (quite rightfully) Ukranian authorities as occupants/enemy.

So you would put a tank in front to crush Police Cars and apparently the Officers as well while your troops are transiting foreign soil.



Way to go, your sure to have friends that way. And god knows the government of those soon to be dead Police Officers wont do anything in return.


Brilliant

[DRA]

So you would put a tank in front to crush Police Cars and apparently the Officers as well while your troops are transiting foreign soil.



Way to go, your sure to have friends that way. And god knows the government of those soon to be dead Police Officers wont do anything in return.


Brilliant

His statement is a bit extreme but the population of Sevastopol' is OVERWHELMINGLY pro-Russian. So if the "tank scenario" would happen, you would hear nothing but cheers from the local crowd. It might be hard for the westerner, considering all the media bs and propaganda, to understand, but the locals consider themselves living under temporary occupational regime. To be honest people all but piss on the Ukrainian flag over there.
Kiev actually replaced almost all of the local cops (they were deemed to loyal to Russia) with the nationalists from the western Ukraine.

[JBH22]

YUSCHENKO stop playing with the BEAR or one day it will kick your A** ask your friend sakhashvili

[Difool]

you do know that most of those 200 years Sevastopol was a Russian city, yes?
It came 1954 to the Ukrainian SSR as gift from Khrushchev (himself Ukrainian).
Back then it didn't matter to what republic an area belongened, cause it's been all part of the SU.
It is Russian populated and when the SU fell apart the Crimeans voted for independence from the Ukraine.
(for all that didn't know)

[Kilgor]

YUSCHENKO stop playing with the BEAR or one day it will kick your A** ask your friend sakhashvili

Ukraine would be a little tougher to chew on than Gerogia:roll:

[void]

Ukraine would be a little tougher to chew on than Gerogia:roll:

Maybe. Arguably the Ukrainian army is in a worse state than the Georgian army, although it is much bigger. Quite recently it was reported that the army could not afford food to feed its soldiers. But the most important point is that 30%-50% of the army would refuse to fight Russia if it came to it, and from the civilian population in the east it would be closer to 70%.

[GazB]

So you would put a tank in front to crush Police Cars and apparently the Officers as well while your troops are transiting foreign soil.
Way to go, your sure to have friends that way. And god knows the government of those soon to be dead Police Officers wont do anything in return.

Just a bit of frustration and the stupid games some countries like to play with Russia.

I am sure they will learn to behave when they are within NATO and the EU.... :)

[calimero2]

Kiev actually replaced almost all of the local cops (they were deemed to loyal to Russia) with the nationalists from the western Ukraine.

So, if one's not loyal to Russia in Ukraine, he's a nationalist? :roll:

[void]

So, if one's not loyal to Russia in Ukraine, he's a nationalist? :roll:

The political leanings, ethnicity (Russian or Ukranian), or language spoken at home of a police officer should have nothing to do with anything, certainly not grounds to be dismissed and replaced with somebody from Western Ukraine who is seen to be more "loyal".

[widi243]

YUSCHENKO stop playing with the BEAR or one day it will kick your A** ask your friend sakhashvili

ohh Ukraine it's not Georgia. Bear can hurt himself very badly. p-)

[Wojtop]

But the most important point is that 30%-50% of the army would refuse to fight Russia if it came to it, and from the civilian population in the east it would be closer to 70%.
Are there any written sources to confirm this claim?

[widi243]

Are there any written sources to confirm this claim?

He have hope that will happen.

[sepheronx]

Are there any written sources to confirm this claim?

Being it that majority of Ukrainians have descendants or are descendants of Russian's, I can guarantee you that there would be revolt in the country if the government does something stupid to provoke a fight with Russia. Only western Ukrainians are nationals, as the closer you get to the Polish border (L'viv), people become pro-Ukrain nationals, who are against Russia, which is a very small population. Just like when during the Tsar reign, when Ukraine was split between Poland and Russia, it was Kiev and eastwards that was part of the Russian empire, for the longest time.

So in other words, I doubt Ukraine would really attempt something. And when/if they get into NATO or EU, there would be strained relatations, and trying to visit family east of them will be difficult. Also, the cost of other commodities will drastically increase.

Edit: Heck, I just say let them join NATO/EU. It wasn't like Ukraine was a viable ally to begin with, with the war in Georgia. Russia still has other allies, like Belarus (even if they are becoming problematic at the moment), Kazakhstan, and alike (countries from far away: Vietnam, Syria, Lybia, Yemen, Venezuela, Cuba, ect.). So they can still have major power, and they already have enemies at their borders. Will not make much of a difference. As long as Russia still has long range nukes, short range tactical missiles, and ways to defeate missile defense systems and other electronic systems, then there really is no threat for Russia.

[Flamming_Python]

ohh Ukraine it's not Georgia. Bear can hurt himself very badly. p-)

No, it can't. And if countries like Poland keep trying to set all these silly traps for Russia and turn its neighbours against it; then they'll find that it'd be their ass which is due for a hiding by Russia next time around ;)

[void]

Are there any written sources to confirm this claim?

These are guesstimates made by organisations/people who generally know what they're talking about (stratfor, janes, etc). You just need to a do some googling to find this info.

But if you consider how much of the population in fact considers themselves "Russian" and not "Ukranian", combined with the current atrocious state of the Ukranian armed forces, it should be pretty obvious that there would be serious problems with desertion in the case of a war with Russia.

[Atasas]

Ethnic groups

National structure of the population of Ukraine (2001).
Ukrainians
Russians
Others

Ukrainian 77.8%, Russian 17.3%, Romanian 0.8% (includingMoldovan 0.5%), Belarusian 0.6%, Crimean Tatar 0.5%, Bulgarian 0.4%, Hungarian 0.3%, Polish 0.3%, Jewish 0.2%, Greeks 0.2% and other 1.6% (including Albanians, otherwise known as Torbesh, old communities of Armenians living on the Sea of Azov, and a microcosm of Gotlander Swedes of Gammalsvenskby).[7]
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/Ukraine_cencus_2001_Ethnic_groups.svg/250px-Ukraine_cencus_2001_Ethnic_groups.svg.png

[void]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/Ukraine_cencus_2001_Ethnic_groups.svg/250px-Ukraine_cencus_2001_Ethnic_groups.svg.png

Umm, what do they consider as "Russian" and what as "Ukrainian"? Because I can assure you that if you went to Eastern Ukraine, most people would say that they are Russian, or at least feel like they should be part of Russia, and speak Russian at home.

[PH961]

Umm, what do they consider as "Russian" and what as "Ukrainian"? Because I can assure you that if you went to Eastern Ukraine, most people would say that they are Russian, or at least feel like they should be part of Russia, and speak Russian at home.
According to a recent poll 35% of the Ukrainians would like Ukraine to be integrated to Russia. At grass root level Ukrainians are one of the most pro-Russian nations in the world, but their political elite is the opposite.

[Atasas]

35% is significant! though not 65% ... any links to that pls?

[Silent Reader]

Umm, what do they consider as "Russian" and what as "Ukrainian"? Because I can assure you that if you went to Eastern Ukraine, most people would say that they are Russian, or at least feel like they should be part of Russia, and speak Russian at home.


depends on your sources


Ukrainian census 2001 (percentage of ethnic Ukrainians by region):
(43% max of non-Ukrainians in one region)

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/3261/ethnicukrainiansinukrai.jpg (http://img148.imageshack.us/i/ethnicukrainiansinukrai.jpg/)

or one from 2006 showing the percentage of the votes for the pro-Russian "Party of the Regions" during the election.. which is much bigger then the group of ethnic Russians...

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/3898/800pxukrelect06prig6.jpg

so you can pick and choose if you want to go by ethnicity or loyalty or whatever... there are enough statistics for everyone :)

[LineDoggie]

His statement is a bit extreme but the population of Sevastopol' is OVERWHELMINGLY pro-Russian. So if the "tank scenario" would happen, you would hear nothing but cheers from the local crowd. It might be hard for the westerner, considering all the media bs and propaganda, to understand, but the locals consider themselves living under temporary occupational regime. To be honest people all but piss on the Ukrainian flag over there.
Kiev actually replaced almost all of the local cops (they were deemed to loyal to Russia) with the nationalists from the western Ukraine.


You may be right about their not being fans of the Government, but the sight of a tank crushing their Police Officers might do a radical re think of their attitudes, and surely will not do Russia good on the international PR stage. Unless killing cops is considered a good thing in Ukraine & Russia.

[Universal_Soldier]

Maybe. Arguably the Ukrainian army is in a worse state than the Georgian army, although it is much bigger. Quite recently it was reported that the army could not afford food to feed its soldiers. But the most important point is that 30%-50% of the army would refuse to fight Russia if it came to it, and from the civilian population in the east it would be closer to 70%.

I think that it would depend largely on how it started. If Ukraine was viewed as the agressor or provocator, it would a boost for Russia. Such a war will be diverstating for both countries especially Ukraine. Ukraine will most certainly lose control of sevestopol and the country will be in serious disarry. Russia's economy will suffer serious consequencies. Ukrainian economy is already in a bit of a mess.
this is assuming that the west does not support Ukraine overtly or covertly. If they do, the might turn into something much larger with possible nuclear consequncies that is why cooler heads must previal at all times.

[PH961]

35% is significant! though not 65% ... any links to that pls?

There you go: http://www.russiaprofile.org/page.php?pageid=Politics&articleid=a1245680109

"R&B’s survey also finds that 35% of Ukrainians would like to see Ukraine united with Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan"

[Bogdan-The-Kozak]

There you go: http://www.russiaprofile.org/page.php?pageid=Politics&articleid=a1245680109

"R&B’s survey also finds that 35% of Ukrainians would like to see Ukraine united with Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan"
An economic union - sure, and something like the old URSS, but not a single state.

[Sashko]

You may be right about their not being fans of the Government, but the sight of a tank crushing their Police Officers might do a radical re think of their attitudes, and surely will not do Russia good on the international PR stage. Unless killing cops is considered a good thing in Ukraine & Russia.


Killing cops? I think you overestimate Ukranian stoicism - cops (aka bribe collectors) would be running in the opposite direction from the tank long before getting crushed.

Tank crushing a police car in the middle of Sevastopol will cause nothing but cheers from a crowd. Noone likes Benderovtsi in uniform.

[Bogdan-The-Kozak]

It came 1954 to the Ukrainian SSR as gift from Khrushchev (himself Ukrainian).
Russian, just read Wikipedia...


Only western Ukrainians are nationals
Yea... wright, I'm from Donets'k, and i'm really patriot as my family and many friends of mine.
You know, actually eastern ukrainians are the most patriotic.

I can assure you that if you went to Eastern Ukraine, most people would say that they are Russian
Aham, and Ukraine it's the motherland of the elephants...

But... that's really offtopic, this is Military Photos!

http://flot2017.com/files/1(21).jpg

http://flot2017.com/files/2(18).jpg

http://flot2017.com/files/3(21).jpg

http://flot2017.com/files/4(17).jpg

http://flot2017.com/files/5(11).jpg

http://flot2017.com/files/7(7).jpg
The first one.


http://flot2017.com/files/2(21).jpg

http://flot2017.com/files/3(24).jpg

http://flot2017.com/files/1(24).jpg

http://flot2017.com/files/111.jpg

http://flot2017.com/files/222.jpg
The second one.

I didn't find pictures about the third one.
http://photo.unian.net/rus/themes/13745
Here you will see the photos of the russian's column of APC the same day. Redirected for molesting the transit.

[kosse]

Yea... wright, I'm from Donets'k, and i'm really patriot as my family and many friends of mine.

You know, actually eastern ukrainians are the most patriotic.



Wow. A real eastern Ukrainian. Finally there is someone who actually knows something about Ukraine. This will be a tough nut to crack to Russia Strong!11 crew posting from US and claiming that eastern provinces want to join mother Russia :roll:

And welcome to the forum!

[Atasas]

There you go: http://www.russiaprofile.org/page.php?pageid=Politics&articleid=a1245680109

"R&B’s survey also finds that 35% of Ukrainians would like to see Ukraine united with Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan"

June 22, 2009
Would the Real Ukraine Please Stand Up?

A Ukrainian public opinion study recently published by the Kiev-based Research and Branding polling institute found that top Russian politicians, including Dmitry Medvedev and Vladimir Putin, enjoy sky-high public approval ratings—much more impressive than those of their Ukrainian counterparts. Moreover, the number of Ukrainians who want a union state with Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan is greater than the number of those rooting to join the European Union
:roll: what was it regarding 35%?:|

Bogdan-The-Kozak Thanks for pics and welcome!

@ PH961 you are reported as Craping up topics person (if you are one)

[cbiwv]

Let me clarify this. Both nations have their navies at the same port? These guys most likely interact with one another?

[Xaito]

Wow. A real eastern Ukrainian. Finally there is someone who actually knows something about Ukraine. This will be a tough nut to crack to Russia Strong!11 crew posting from US and claiming that eastern provinces want to join mother Russia :roll:

And welcome to the forum!

The exception proves the rule

[Spezz]

Wow. A real eastern Ukrainian. Finally there is someone who actually knows something about Ukraine. This will be a tough nut to crack to Russia Strong!11 crew posting from US and claiming that eastern provinces want to join mother Russia :roll:

And welcome to the forum!
I like it how you believe anything that is in your opinion anti-Russian even if only one guy says it. While anything that contradicts your view or opinion you choose to classify under "Russia strong crew", like Russian's are a one minded herd that spews out uniform bull**** without difference in opinion.

I'm originally from Eastern Ukraine, and i have family there and I'm partly of Russian descent, so what? No need to jump on the first guy's **** who said something that you like to hear.

That said, the statement that 35% of Ukrainians will identify themselves as Russians is to be taken with a grain of salt. Most of them would consider themselves Ukrainian but will see Russians as basically the same people. Russian culture and language is a part of what they are, even if they are Ukrainian. Exactly this is what some western members fail to understand and brush it off as Russia Str0ng propaganda.

It is for that reason that if a war should break out that Russia (at least in their eyes) didn't NOT start, then those people will definitely not support that war and appose the Ukrainian attack or even fight against the attackers. If, by some unlikely reason Russia would attack Ukraine unprovoked, than that's a different matter.

Bogdan said that he's a patriot in response to the claim that Western Ukraine is very nationalistic. He's doesn't seem to know the difference between the words patriotic and nationalistic.

Being a patriot in Ukraine, doesn't have and shouldn't have anything to do with Russia. Being a nationalist, especially in Western Ukraine, has everything to do with it. In Western Ukraine the deeply rooted hatred towards "Moskali" is given from childhood and is basically the biggest thing to unites those people, it's sad really.

[Atasas]

I like it how you believe anything that is in your opinion anti-Russian even if only one guy says it. While anything that contradicts your view or opinion you choose to classify under "Russia strong crew", like Russian's are a one minded herd that spews out uniform bull**** without difference in opinion.

I'm originally from Eastern Ukraine, and i have family there and I'm partly of Russian descent, so what? No need to jump on the first guy's **** who said something that you like to hear.

That said, the statement that 35% of Ukrainians will identify themselves as Russians is to be taken with a grain of salt. Most of them would consider themselves Ukrainian but will see Russians as basically the same people. Russian culture and language is a part of what they are, even if they are Ukrainian. Exactly this is what some western members fail to understand and brush it off as Russia Str0ng propaganda.

It is for that reason that if a war should break out that Russia (at least in their eyes) didn't NOT start, then those people will definitely not support that war and appose the Ukrainian attack or even fight against the attackers. If, by some unlikely reason Russia would attack Ukraine unprovoked, than that's a different matter.

Bogdan said that he's a patriot in response to the claim that Western Ukraine is very nationalistic. He's doesn't seem to know the difference between the words patriotic and nationalistic.

Being a patriot in Ukraine, doesn't have and shouldn't have anything to do with Russia. Being a nationalist, especially in Western Ukraine, has everything to do with it. In Western Ukraine the deeply rooted hatred towards "Moskali" is given from childhood and is basically the biggest thing to unites those people, it's sad really.

whole of the region- ex soviet block has gone through tough time, it does not mean, that people are not they arnt what they say they are?
I have met Ukrainians from different regions and so far I can clearly state- they are as much Ukrainians as much nationalists or patriotic or democratic... one thing to say about my experience with Ukrainians- well educated people!
back on a topic!- so would have, could have, should have... so any theories!- none are so far proven to be in contradiction with current reality- Ukraine is not afraid of Russia big deal, Ukraine is predominantly proWestern, Ukrainian people do have national pride and whole Russiastr0ng clan in many disguises had failed to crap up this topic in its ideological terms... sad?- ha ha!:bash:

[lauris71]

35% is significant! though not 65% ... any links to that pls?
Subscription-free version of the article:
http://www.russiaotherpointsofview.com/2009/06/ukraine-a-union-state-with-russia.html


R&B’s survey also found that 35 percent of Ukrainians would like to see Ukraine united with Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan, compared to 22 percent who wish to join the EU and ten percent who wanted to restore the Soviet Union. These results were confirmed by a poll published on June 17 by the Kiev International Institute of Sociology (KIIS). According to KIIS President Valery Khmelko, 23 percent of Ukrainians desire full unification with Russia – compared to only 12 percent of Russians wanting the same.

While only a quarter of Ukrainian respondents want full unification with Russia, 68 percent want an EU-style border-free regime with Russia, with Russia and Ukraine being “independent but friendly states” without a visa regime or custom controls. Only 7.8 percent of respondents were in favor of Ukraine’s relations with Russia becoming the same as its relations with other countries, i.e. with border controls, customs and visas.
So it is 23-35% for full unification, 68% for EU-style union.

[Atasas]

http://www.russiaotherpointsofview.com/2009/06/ukraine-a-union-state-with-russia.html
still 35% max, not 65%MIN- realistically lost argument...?

[Bogdan-The-Kozak]

Thnx for your welcome!
And for everyone, i'm not pro/anti-russian or pro/anti-USA,NATO
I'm just ukrainian :)

[Bogdan-The-Kozak]

Bogdan said that he's a patriot in response to the claim that Western Ukraine is very nationalistic. He's doesn't seem to know the difference between the words patriotic and nationalistic.

Being a patriot in Ukraine, doesn't have and shouldn't have anything to do with Russia. Being a nationalist, especially in Western Ukraine, has everything to do with it. In Western Ukraine the deeply rooted hatred towards "Moskali" is given from childhood and is basically the biggest thing to unites those people, it's sad really.
Well - that's kind difficult.
If you take any language, beside ukrainiaa, "patriot" and "nationalist" it's not the same, but in ucranian patriot-nationalist, or at least I see it like that.
So, when I speak ukrainian I use both words, if I speak or ride any other laguage y use the word "patriot".
Any way, I'm patriot/nationalist but NEVER shovinist (chauvinist?)

[Atasas]

Thnx for your welcome!
And for everyone, i'm not pro/anti-russian or pro/anti-USA,NATO
I'm just ukrainian :)
Like few/or many I've met! + your countries/soldier attitude contribution in ISAF is very much valued/welcomed!

[PH961]

http://www.russiaotherpointsofview.com/2009/06/ukraine-a-union-state-with-russia.html
still 35% max, not 65%MIN- realistically lost argument...?
If 35% of Ukrainians are for unification of Ukraine, Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan it still does not mean that 65% of the Ukrainians are against it. It could be that for example 30% are indifferent about it or could express their opinion about it. The percentage of people who oppose the unification with Russia might not be bigger than the percentage who support it.

[Atasas]

If 35% of Ukrainians are for unification of Ukraine, Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan it still does not mean that 65% of the Ukrainians are against it. It could be that for example 30% are indifferent about it or could express their opinion about it. The percentage of people who oppose the unification with Russia might not be bigger than the percentage who support it.
u r not from finland either? since configuration/placement of sentences- u r just another str0ngRussia clan worker?
sorry, if I would be be mistaken... but so far your expressions, as pointless as they r- most of, it is either uneducated c$ap or else... just one more member at the very least that should consider once again what do they post?:roll:

[DiversanT]

Same old song again. Everyone will read what they want to read. There will always be two kind of "sources" and opinions. Pointless.I just want to say that i can call myself russian or russian speaking ukrainian w/e to call it. To be a patriot you dont have to blindly support the idea of some external enemy which is common nowadays here.Someone can call me a traitor but i dont consider the western nationalists as part of my nation. We are too different. And IMHO the best way to go is to peacefully divide a country or make some confederation idk.
On topic:
This kind of provocations may lead to some hard consequences in the future, but in this particular case this is just common regular phenomena in Ukraine - elections are coming. Some western rulling elite are trying to get more voices by rising the external enemy question again.

[DRA]

Same old song again. Everyone will read what they want to read. There will always be two kind of "sources" and opinions. Pointless.I just want to say that i can call myself russian or russian speaking ukrainian w/e to call it. To be a patriot you dont have to blindly support the idea of some external enemy which is common nowadays here.Someone can call me a traitor but i dont consider the western nationalists as part of my nation. We are too different. And IMHO the best way to go is to peacefully divide a country or make some confederation idk.
On topic:
This kind of provocations may lead to some hard consequences in the future, but in this particular case this is just common regular phenomena in Ukraine - elections are coming. Some western rulling elite are trying to get more voices by rising the external enemy question again.

Fully agree.
For anyone with a brain and first hand knowledge of the situation "on location" it is clear that it is just a matter of time before Ukraine will split into 2-3 parts. I just hope, although doubt it, that it will be done peacefully.

DiversanT, where in Khar'kov you are from?

[PH961]

u r not from finland either? since configuration/placement of sentences- u r just another str0ngRussia clan worker?
sorry, if I would be be mistaken... but so far your expressions, as pointless as they r- most of, it is either uneducated c$ap or else... just one more member at the very least that should consider once again what do they post?:roll:
I am from Finland. I'm not an ethnic Russian, but I like Russia as a country and I can see it is treated unfairly in our media and in the western media in general. That is why I like to defend Russia and I wish the country well.

Another reason why I root for Russia is because I think the world needs a strong counterbalance for the current pursue of western military and economic hegemony over the whole Eurasian continent. China cannot be that counterbalance because of it's geopraphical location and it's nature as an isolationist country (although China must do it's part). Russia is the only country in Eurasia that has the resources, geopraphical location and economic potential to counter the military/economical enslavement of the non Western European Eurasia. Without Russia the West could fight wars in any part of Eurasia with inpunity. With Russia they at least have to think about the consequences.

The monopoly of power is not good for the world in general. As I see it a weaker/non-aggressive West is good for the rest of the world.

[Atasas]

I am from Finland. I'm not an ethnic Russian, but I like Russia as a country and I can see it is treated unfairly in our media and in the western media in general. That is why I like to defend Russia and I wish the country well.

Another reason why I root for Russia is because I think the world needs a strong counterbalance for the current pursue of western military and economic hegemony over the whole Eurasian continent. China cannot be that counterbalance because of it's geopraphical location and it's nature as an isolationist country (although China must do it's part). Russia is the only country in Eurasia that has the resources, geopraphical location and economic potential to counter the military/economical enslavement of the non Western European Eurasia. Without Russia the West could fight wars in any part of Eurasia with inpunity. With Russia they at least have to think about the consequences.

The monopoly of power is not good for the world in general. As I see it a weaker/non-aggressive West is good for the rest of the world.
poit taken, dismissed! as up until couple of years ago I have had (despite better advice from officials) BELIEVE IN COUNTERBALANCE... what is realistically one? - none neighboring county (to Russia) is in remotely interested in any aggression;
Why on earth There is such blind misconception in the "circles" as a threat to world... way too old tactics/propaganda...
BTW well done Suomi's so far.. just dont forget an why it happened ...?

[PH961]

poit taken, dismissed! as up until couple of years ago I have had (despite better advice from officials) BELIEVE IN COUNTERBALANCE... what is realistically one? - none neighboring county (to Russia) is in remotely interested in any aggression;
Why on earth There is such blind misconception in the "circles" as a threat to world... way too old tactics/propaganda...
BTW well done Suomi's so far.. just dont forget an why it happened ...?
Let's think about the Caspian region. It is said to have as big gas and oil reserves as the Middle East. Why has the West occupied and fought wars in the Middle East for 100 years? Because it has oil which the West needs. The current war in Iraq is fought for oil.

Now let's think about the Caspian region. The most oil and gas rich countries (besides Russia) there are Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan. None of these countries are military strong and they would have no change to resist a western military attack on their own.

But they have a big neighbour in north with a nuclear teeth and quite a capable and large armed forces. The West will never attack Turkmenistan or Kazakhstan to gain control of their energy reserves as long as Russia is capable of aiding these countries militarily and capable of destroying the West with it's nuclear weapons. The western leaders are no fools and they know this.

Let's say there is a muslim country in the Middle East with as large an army as Russia and with a nuclear weapon and let's say this country borders Iraq. Would the Iraq war had happened then?

[tommy00]

More cheap provocations :roll: 3rd time this month btw...


They should just put a T-72 in front of those convoys to plow through the annoying representatives of local traffic police - will add a few popularity points for the fleet with Sevastopol population for sure, majority of which already view (quite rightfully) Ukranian authorities as occupants/enemy.

To a wannabywarriors....
http://www.lenta.ru/news/2009/07/26/sorry/

Commander of Russian navy recognized the blame for mistakes made by the Black Sea Fleet during the transportation of ammunition and military equipment in Sevastopol. Chief of Navy, Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky said so in Sunday, July 26. As reported by RIA Novosti, head promised that those responsible will suffer a "very serious" punishment

[DRA]

Just to illustrate the point about what the locals think about Ukraine:

The Day of the Ukrainian navy in Sevastopl' (couple of weeks ago). Btw that was the official state holiday with the Ukrainian President in town for it.
http://i042.radikal.ru/0907/cc/9c82f04385fa.jpg

Same location today (Russian Navy Day)
http://photofile.ru/photo/sipiko/96112990/xlarge/109481343.jpg

http://photofile.ru/photo/sipiko/96112990/xlarge/109481407.jpg

Feel the difference............

[Atasas]

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20090729/155668070.html
Russia hits back at Ukraine with diplomatic tit-for-tat

21:2629/07/2009

MOSCOW, July 29 (RIA Novosti) - Moscow asked Ukraine on Wednesday to recall two senior diplomats from Russia, following a similar request from the Ukrainian side, the Foreign Ministry said.

The Ukrainian Ambassador to Russia, Kostiantyn Hryshchenko, was summoned to the Russian Foreign Ministry on Wednesday to discuss the issue with Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin.

"The Ukrainian ambassador was notified that Russia proposes that Ukraine consider recalling its consul general in St. Petersburg and one of the counselors at the Ukrainian embassy in Moscow," the ministry said in a statement.

Kiev earlier asked the Russian consul general in Odessa and the senior counselor at the Russian embassy to end their work in Ukraine. However, Ukraine's decision on the consul general was later "suspended". Mirroring the announcement, Russia's Foreign Ministry said its decision on the Ukrainian consul general was also suspended.

However, the ministry said in a statement: "Russia considers the diplomatic actions previously taken by Ukraine to be a move aimed against Russia, to the detriment of bilateral relations."

The ministry also said that before making the announcement, Russia had warned Ukraine that it would be responsible for any negative consequences of "unfriendly" actions.

The statement said that Russia "nevertheless reaffirms its desire to develop friendly and neighborly relations with Ukraine to serve the interests of our peoples."
http://en.beta.rian.ru/images/15522/97/155229723.jpg

[Bogdan-The-Kozak]

Ukraine sent off the russian diplomats because of the missile situation, but what reason gave the russians?
I don't understand.

[void]

Ukraine sent off the russian diplomats because of the missile situation, but what reason gave the russians?
I don't understand.

Russia doesnt need a specific reason. This is called "tit-for-tat", it is a game-theory optimal way of dealing with other countries. Whenever a country does something bad to you, you do something of equl severity to them, discouraging further such actions. You see this kind of thing all the time.

[Satorius]

Same old song again. Everyone will read what they want to read. There will always be two kind of "sources" and opinions. Pointless.I just want to say that i can call myself russian or russian speaking ukrainian w/e to call it. To be a patriot you dont have to blindly support the idea of some external enemy which is common nowadays here.Someone can call me a traitor but i dont consider the western nationalists as part of my nation. We are too different. And IMHO the best way to go is to peacefully divide a country or make some confederation idk.


I wonder where these evil western Ukrainian nationalists are in Ukraine?

All the top Ukrainian politicians and oligarchs come from the East of the country.

I am afraid you are doing just what you wrote "support the idea of some enemy" and that's all your post is about. For you this enemy is "western nationalists" that is not even some real people but a silly Homo Sovieticus stereotype.





On topic:
This kind of provocations may lead to some hard consequences in the future, but in this particular case this is just common regular phenomena in Ukraine - elections are coming. Some western rulling elite are trying to get more voices by rising the external enemy question again.Provocations? But even the RF's side admitted that the incident was their fault.

[Satorius]

Just to illustrate the point about what the locals think about Ukraine:

The Day of the Ukrainian navy in Sevastopl' (couple of weeks ago). Btw that was the official state holiday with the Ukrainian President in town for it.
http://i042.radikal.ru/0907/cc/9c82f04385fa.jpg

Same location today (Russian Navy Day)
http://photofile.ru/photo/sipiko/96112990/xlarge/109481343.jpg

http://photofile.ru/photo/sipiko/96112990/xlarge/109481407.jpg

Feel the difference............



The difference is that RF's navy held show for public on the occasion and the Ukrainian one didn't.

[Russianlynxy]

I wonder where these evil western Ukrainian nationalists are in Ukraine?


It doesn't have to do with where you are born, but where you are educated. Western Ukraine is predominantly nationalist, after WWII, Ukrainian shattered SS veterans and UPA still continued terrorist and hit-and-run tactics against locals and Soviet soldiers in places like Lwow, Ivano-Frankovs, etc..

As far as politicians in Ukraine go, it is somewhat true. Most of them are from Central Ukraine, like Tymoshenko. However it is unclear which side shes on. Her own it seems...:roll: Yuschenko was born in central Ukraine but educated in Tyrnopil, which is really far west. Tarasiuk, etc are from western Ukraine.

Also, most of the people in Ukrainian politics right now who call themselves "nationalists" aren't most of them are mafia and oligarchs who are looting the country, and playing the nationalism and "free Ukraine" card to get political backing from the EU, so they are not as easily deposed by Russia and Ukrainians themselves.

I am from Kiev myself, originally and don't support current government or 10% uneducated slum from Western Ukraine who scream about nationalism.

[Satorius]

It doesn't have to do with where you are born, but where you are educated. Western Ukraine is predominantly nationalist, after WWII, Ukrainian shattered SS veterans and UPA still continued terrorist and hit-and-run tactics against locals and Soviet soldiers in places like Lwow, Ivano-Frankovs, etc..


Have you heard about Ukrainian warlord Makhno and his army? Not to mention lots of other Eastern Ukrainian steppe warlords. They had operated in the Eastern Ukraine just 20 years before UPA's activities in the Western and central Ukraine. They also attacked and killed Soviet as well as "White" Russian soldiers and supporters. So in this respect there is no difference between the East and the West of Ukraine.



As far as politicians in Ukraine go, it is somewhat true. Most of them are from Central Ukraine, like Tymoshenko. However it is unclear which side shes on. Her own it seems...:roll: Yuschenko was born in central Ukraine but educated in Tyrnopil, which is really far west. Tarasiuk, etc are from western Ukraine. Timoshenko is from Dnepropetrovsk, a Russian-speaking city, considered to be Eastern Ukraine. She was educated and started her career there as well.

Yushchenko was born in the Eastern Ukraine. His native village is 20 kilometers off the Russian border. He received his education in a Soviet institute in the Soviet times. And each Soviet higher educational establishment has the same ideological communist pro-Moscow brainwashing across the USSR. He volonteered to become a member of communist party and was considered loyal to the regime to get recruited in the Soviet frontier guards. I am sorry but his biography looks like the one of a potential victim of nationalist fighters from UPA and not a nationalist.


Tarasuiuk was born in central Ukraine, and was educated in Kyiv http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borys_Tarasyuk

He used to be the minsiter of foreign affairs but he is an ordinary Ukrainian MP today. He is not a top politician or an oligarch.

So can anybody name top Ukrainian politicians or oligarchs from the West of the country?




Also, most of the people in Ukrainian politics right now who call themselves "nationalists" aren't most of them are mafia and oligarchs who are looting the country, and playing the nationalism and "free Ukraine" card to get political backing from the EU, so they are not as easily deposed by Russia and Ukrainians themselves.Please name Ukrainian oligarchs who call themselves Ukrainian nationalists?
There are no mainstream Ukrainian politicians who indentify themselves with nationalism.



I am from Kiev myself, originally and don't support current government or 10% uneducated slum from Western Ukraine who scream about nationalism.If you really come from Kiev then you have a very bad idea about Ukrainian politics and situation judging from your posts and you should know that there have never been any nationalist fractions in the Ukrainian partliament during all its history.
Thus your words about " 10% uneducated slum from Western Ukraine who scream about nationalism" is another Homo Sovieticus stereotype that is the result of Soviet-Russian brainwashing about evil "banderovtsy".

[Bogdan-The-Kozak]

Satorius

Great words!